2 Sources: ShanAHAN has made informal inquiries about J. Walker

[Hercules Rockefeller]

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/nfl/article/0,2777,DRMN_23918_4576109,00.html

Broncos have assets for dealing
Denver's extra picks could lead to trade for Packers' Walker

March 28, 2006
ORLANDO, Fla. - Armed with extra draft picks in the first and fourth rounds of the April draft, the Denver Broncos are searching for potential deals.
Two sources in the league said Monday that Broncos coach Mike Shanahan has made informal inquiries about Green Bay Packers receiver Javon Walker. Those discussions have included former Packers coach Mike Sherman, who is now on the Houston Texans staff.

Shanahan could not be reached for comment.

[fontaine]

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/nfl/article/0,2777,DRMN_23918_4576109,00.html

Broncos have assets for dealing
Denver's extra picks could lead to trade for Packers' Walker

March 28, 2006
ORLANDO, Fla. - Armed with extra draft picks in the first and fourth rounds of the April draft, the Denver Broncos are searching for potential deals.
Two sources in the league said Monday that Broncos coach Mike Shanahan has made informal inquiries about Green Bay Packers receiver Javon Walker. Those discussions have included former Packers coach Mike Sherman, who is now on the Houston Texans staff.

Shanahan could not be reached for comment.

I'd be all for the Walker trade but busted ligaments in knees have a nasty way of killing fluidity and burst.

[eddie mac]

Would anyone trade 15 and 22 to GB for No6 plus Walker, giving him an estimated trade value of a mid 3rd rounder???

[fontaine]

Would anyone trade 15 and 22 to GB for No6 plus Walker, giving him an estimated trade value of a mid 3rd rounder???

You can blast me for saying this, but I don't think there's any point in moving up (when you already have two firsts) unless there are one or two specific players you're moving up for.

Although having said that, Walker would solve our long term problems in finding a number 1 WR to replace Rod if he pulls through his injuries. And with the number 6 pick we could pick up VD which would give us a young core of skill players.

Popps would pitch a fit though since no DL in the first!
:~ohyah!:

[eddie mac]

You can blast me for saying this, but I don't think there's any point in moving up (when you already have two firsts) unless there are one or two specific players you're moving up for.

Although having said that, Walker would solve our long term problems in finding a number 1 WR to replace Rod if he pulls through his injuries. And with the number 6 pick we could pick up VD which would give us a young core of skill players.

Popps would pitch a fit though since no DL in the first!
:~ohyah!:

IMO the only D-Line player worth any of our picks is Bunkley.

[Atlas]

IMO the only D-Line player worth any of our picks is Bunkley.

uhhhhhh... Mario Williams

[Jens1893]

uhhhhhh... Mario Williams

add ngata and probably kiwanuka but except for kiwanuka they wont be there when were on the clock

[Atlas]

add ngata and probably kiwanuka but except for kiwanuka they wont be there when were on the clock

Kiwanuka would be perfect with the 22 pick.

[broncohaven]

4th rounder?

[-Slap-]

Now this would be a good acquisition.

[OrangeShadow]

id like to see walker here. hes pretty young i think hes what, 27?

[BombsOverBaghdad]

Well ............ how about Tater, a #4, and a late round - conditional - pick in next year's draft?
Solves GB's need at RB and solves our WR issues.....................

[fontaine]

Well ............ how about Tater, a #4, and a late round - conditional - pick in next year's draft?
Solves GB's need at RB and solves our WR issues.....................

Could be wrong but Green Bay resigned Davenport, Henderson and Ahman Green is coming back so they're stocked at RB.

[fontaine]

I think the best situation is to sit tight.

Walker has already said he'd rather retire than come back to GB which is a pretty strong statement. It was obviously more show and go but I think the way to play this is to wait. No deals are going to get done any time soon between GB/Walker since they're preparing for the draft and Walker doesn't want to come back. Add in the uncertainty of his knee and payday demands then it could take months for that situation to resolve.

I say, let Walker/Green Bay simmer until it's pretty clear that he no longer wants to return and deal for him them when we won't be bidding against multiple teams to acquire Walker and will get decent value for him.

[BombsOverBaghdad]

Could be wrong but Green Bay resigned Davenport, Henderson and Ahman Green is coming back so they're stocked at RB.

You are right regarding the head count. However, Green is coming off a serious injury and has aged dramatically in the past 2 years. GB simply is not the same team w/o Green.
A RBC of Tater and Henderson might be a very effective combo

[Drek]

A 4th and a situational '07 (3rd if Walker catches 70+ passes, 5th if he catches 40+ passes, 6th otherwise) is what I'd offer.

If they were interested in trading back though I'd consider the 6th overall and Walker for our two firsts, as long as they agree to a situational '07 coming our way depending on Walker's performance (none if Walker catches 70+ passes, a 5th if he catches 50-69, a 4th anything less than that.)

[Jens1893]

A 4th and a situational '07 (3rd if Walker catches 70+ passes, 5th if he catches 40+ passes, 6th otherwise) is what I'd offer.

If they were interested in trading back though I'd consider the 6th overall and Walker for our two firsts, as long as they agree to a situational '07 coming our way depending on Walker's performance (none if Walker catches 70+ passes, a 5th if he catches 50-69, a 4th anything less than that.)

you cant base it on production ... only playing time

[fontaine]

You are right regarding the head count. However, Green is coming off a serious injury and has aged dramatically in the past 2 years. GB simply is not the same team w/o Green.
A RBC of Tater and Henderson might be a very effective combo

Yeah but that leaves us in a hole at RB with Dayne as the only guy?

I would trade a player we don't need.

Since GB are trading a WR in Walker, why not return them in kind?

Let's say Darius Watts + a conditional 4th?

It makes sense to me that since we're getting Walker he would bump out backups like Watts/Terrell so might as well get rid of one of them and by trading Walker, Green Bay would then have a need for a young WR!

[BombsOverBaghdad]

Yeah but that leaves us in a hole at RB with Dayne as the only guy?

I would trade a player we don't need.

Since GB are trading a WR in Walker, why not return them in kind?

Let's say Darius Watts + a conditional 4th?

It makes sense to me that since we're getting Walker he would bump out backups like Watts/Terrell so might as well get rid of one of them.

Yes .............. and I fill our hole at RB with D. Williams with #15.
I do not think that D. Watts has any value in a trade situation. Reverse the roles -- if you were GB would you take D. Watts & a conditional 4th for your best receiver?

[BroncoInferno]

How bout Lelie and a 5th for Walker?

[BombsOverBaghdad]

How bout Lelie and a 5th for Walker?

That seems to me to be realistic -- however, we still have a hole at WR and we are relly gambling on Walkers health.
IMHO, Tater is the easiest to replace in our system

[BroncoInferno]

That seems to me to be realistic -- however, we still have a hole at WR and we are relly gambling on Walkers health.
IMHO, Tater is the easiest to replace in our system

Come to think of it, Lelie for Walker straight up would make a lot of sense. Obviously, a healthy, content Walker is worth more than Lelie alone, but given Walker's recovery status and statements about the Packers orginization, that seems like a realistic deal that would allow us to keep our draft picks.

[fontaine]

Yes .............. and I fill our hole at RB with D. Williams with #15.
I do not think that D. Watts has any value in a trade situation. Reverse the roles -- if you were GB would you take D. Watts & a conditional 4th for your best receiver?

Yes, if I were GB then I'd take that trade, but then again I'm a big Watts Homer!
;D

Well, I hope we keep Bell he improved a lot in his 2nd year and who's to say he won't again in his 3rd?

[eddie mac]

uhhhhhh... Mario Williams

I meant any D-Lineman that has a slight possibility of falling to 15 or 22. Which totally rules out Mario and Ngata.

[Mile High Shack]

How bout Lelie and a 5th for Walker?

see I'd be fine with this scenerio

[eddie mac]

What if Walker's nowhere near 100%, then we're truly fvcked at WR.

[BroncoInferno]

see I'd be fine with this scenerio

The more I think about it, the more sense it makes. Walker wants out of GB, and Lelie doesn't fit in this offense as well as Walker would. Both guys are in contract years. Get'r'done, Shanny.

[BroncoInferno]

What if Walker's nowhere near 100%, then we're truly fvcked at WR.

He probably will be fine, but if you move Lelie in the deal, you obviously make absolutely sure he'll be ready for the start of the season.

[Garcia Bronco]

Trade Lelie...are you guys drunk? Now I know why you included the 5th. :)

[BroncoInferno]

Trade Lelie...are you guys drunk? Now I know why you included the 5th. :)

Walker is a far better receiver thna Lelie if healthy. I ammended it to Lelie for Walker straight up in my next post. Again, we would need assurances that he's ready for the season.

[bendog]

Lelie's got two knees. I'd be all for getting Walker, but ACL's a two year comeback, and even then it's never for sure a guy comes all the way back. GB needs defense. Offer em Gold and a 4. (-:

[BroncoInferno]

Lelie's got two knees. I'd be all for getting Walker, but ACL's a two year comeback, and even then it's never for sure a guy comes all the way back. GB needs defense. Offer em Gold and a 4. (-:

I believe Steve Smith missed '04 with an ACL injury. He looked pretty good to me in '05.

[fontaine]

Lelie can be replaced.

He isn't used effectively enough and hasn't adjusted to our type of offense. The guy hasn't caught a red zone TD in two years. That's not something which is hard to replace.

[Atlas]

Come to think of it, Lelie for Walker straight up would make a lot of sense. Obviously, a healthy, content Walker is worth more than Lelie alone, but given Walker's recovery status and statements about the Packers orginization, that seems like a realistic deal that would allow us to keep our draft picks.

Walker has had one good year in the league. I wouldn't trade Lelie for an injured Walker. I would give GB next years 3rd for him.

[Rascal]

I don't know about trading Lelie. We need some kind of insurance should Walker's ACL be truly screwed up.

Give them a fourth and a conditional pick next year (max of a third min of a sixth).

[BroncoInferno]

Walker has had one good year in the league. I wouldn't trade Lelie for an injured Walker. I would give GB next years 3rd for him.

Walker at 80% will surpass Lelie's 2005 production.

[Rascal]

You guys forget Steve Smith who I believe suffered the same injury in 2004. He had a pretty good 2005 season I believe.

[BroncoInferno]

You guys forget Steve Smith who I believe suffered the same injury in 2004. He had a pretty good 2005 season I believe.

Yep, I pointed that out earlier.

[Rascal]

Yep, I pointed that out earlier.

Yeah I just saw that.

I don't have the time, fixing to leave on a plane in about 4 hours, but somebody might want to do some research and make sure they had the same injury.

[watermock]

http://www.packersnews.com/archives/news/pack_25124531.shtml

Lelie and a 4th might git r done. I keep trying to find how bad his knee was hurt, but I can't find it. He hurt it in the opener so he might be servicible this year. They seem to be able to fix ACL's better now, sooner, but he won't be ever fully recovered, he should be able to play.

Texans team physician will operate on Walker
Green Bay - Green Bay Packers wide receiver Javon Walker has chosen Houston Texans team physician Walter Lowe to repair the torn anterior cruciate ligament in his right knee and will undergo surgery Friday in Houston.

Walker said he decided to go with Lowe because he was part of a medical group that had operated on his right shoulder after the 2003 season. Lowe will be in charge of Walker's surgery and rehabilitation, which means the Packers will have a very limited role in overseeing his return to the football field.

Even though Walker suffered the injury in the season-opener at Detroit on Sept. 11, surgery was put off until this week because of swelling in the knee area. It is expected that Walker will need six to 10 months to recover from the surgery, and he could miss all off-season activities.

It is rare for Packers players to go outside the organization to have surgery, in part, because team physician Patrick McKenzie has such a good reputation. Since 2001, McKenzie has done about a half-dozen ACL repairs on Packers, including offensive tackle Mark Tauscher, safety Antuan Edwards and most recently linebacker Kurt Campbell.

In 1996, the year the Packers won the Super Bowl, wide receiver Robert Brooks and linebacker George Koonce both had ACLs repaired by McKenzie and came back to start again.
Among the players who have gone outside the organization to have knees operated on were tackle Brennan Curtin (2004) and linebacker Brian Williams (2000), both of whom struggled to regain their form and were eventually released. Curtin had an ACL tear and Williams had a patellar tendon rupture.

Walker will be away from the organization for the first four to six weeks after surgery because he will have to stay in Houston to be regularly monitored by Lowe. Walker's mother lives in Houston, which is probably one reason he decided to have the surgery there.
Lowe will direct his rehabilitation program and tell the Packers when Walker is cleared for football activities.

General manager Ted Thompson said the Packers had no objections to Walker seeking treatment outside of the organization and felt comfortable having Lowe perform the surgery.

Lowe has been the Texans' team physician since 2001, served as team physician for the NBA's Houston Rockets from 1993-2003 and also is team physician for the WNBA's Houston Comets. He is an associate professor of the department of orthopedic surgery at the Baylor College of Medicine and has estimated in published reports that he does 250 ACL reconstructions a year.

He has consulted on or performed knee surgeries on athletes such as Buffalo's Willis McGahee, Houston's Tony Boselli, New England's Richard Seymour and the WNBA's Sheryl Swoopes.

Walker may have been directed to Lowe by agent Drew Rosenhaus, although talk inside the Packers organization persists that Walker is no longer affiliated with Rosenhaus. Walker said this week that Rosenhaus was still his agent, but he said at this point he has no need for an agent since he's under contract through next year and there's no chance the Packers will be extending his deal until he proves he can come back from his injury

[Rascal]

Good find mock :thumbs:

[Garcia Bronco]

Would anyone trade 15 and 22 to GB for No6 plus Walker, giving him an estimated trade value of a mid 3rd rounder???


I'd give up mo more than a 4th for him. That's it. Anything else would be un-civilized.

[Broncoman13]

Would anyone trade 15 and 22 to GB for No6 plus Walker, giving him an estimated trade value of a mid 3rd rounder???


I'd do it in a heart beat. That would allow you to walk away with Javon Walker and Vernon Davis. I'd like to find a RB in this draft as well which is why I like having the 22nd pick in addition to the 15th, but Walker and Davis go a long way toward making our offense very potent!!!

[TotallyScrewed]

Although I would love Shanny to take a flyer on Jevon Walker, I sure wouldn't throw Lelie or Bell away on damaged goods. Lelie has improved every year that he's been here. He's catching passes over the middle. He's still a fantastic deep threat. I.e., He's coming along nicely and some would throw him away for a ?? Most of the anger from Walker could be because his career is in doubt.

"Walker reported on time in July after threatening to hold out. One of the arguments that agent Drew Rosenhaus made on his behalf was the fear that Walker could suffer a major injury and his chances for a lucrative long-term contract would be damaged.
On Sunday, that injury occurred."- Bob McGinn JournalSentinel 9/11/2005

I think, if things are as sour as they sound in GB, we could give up a 3rd and maybe a conditional pick in '07, maybe as high as another third for Walker. Undamaged Walker is certainly first round material. If he returns to being a probowl player, giving up two third rounds would be grand theft.

btw...He has a new agent for those who are freaking...Kennard McGuire.

[Requiem]

**** yeah. Javon go dummy on the field when healthy. Do this.

[Broncoman13]

You guys forget Steve Smith who I believe suffered the same injury in 2004. He had a pretty good 2005 season I believe.


I'm pretty sure Steve Smith broke a leg. Vastly different injuries.

However, guys like Jamal Lewis have come back from ACL's, in Jamal's case he's come back from two of them... and he put up a 2000 yard season after those injuries too.

Then you have guys like Jamal Anderson who never really make it back at all. It's a gamble, but that's why you're able to trade a 3rd or a 4th as opposed to a couple of firsts.

[bendog]

I'm not a great Lelie fan. I recall back to that year when we had Rod, whoever replaced EMac, and MA at rb. We were so slow teams had 8 in the box and just dissed out pass. But, no doubt Lelie could be better with the ability he has, and maybe he will be. I dunno. I really have no problem with the offense because we were what, like 2 or 3, in the league. My question is with the emphasis on run, and even with the TE's getting 10-20 catches next year, is it really realistic to think the no2 WR and deep threat will EVER catch more than 60 passes?

[Garcia Bronco]

You guys cannot be serious about giving up a player and a draft pick for this guy with a recently busted knee. That's a joke right? Would you buy a car with a busted axle?...I didn't think so.

[Rascal]

Yeah you are correct oskie.

Edgerin James came back pretty well. McGahee done well. Need to find a WR though all I see are RB's as examples.

[Rascal]

You guys cannot be serious about giving up a player and a draft pick for this guy with a recently busted knee. That's a joke right? Would you buy a car with a busted axle?...I didn't think so.

I can fix a broken axle or replace it so yes depeding on how much the car was originally worth :)

[Rascal]

http://www.tennessean.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060107/SPORTS01/601070344/1328/SPORTS

[Old Dude]

I doubt that we'll get Walker, either.

I'm thinking that the plan this year is to simply hunker down and ride out the free agency guaranteed megabucks storm, build for a couple years down the road through the draft, and take advantage of the salary cap hell that several franchises will inevitably encounter in 08, 09 and beyond.

[Rascal]

Things that make you go hmmmm....

http://exercise.about.com/library/weekly/aa120800a.htm

Why are football players so susceptible to knee injuries? One explanation comes from New Science which reports on "a condition called SARA (sexually acquired reactive arthritis) in sportsmen, particularly footballers. It seems that footballers have so much sex that they're particularly susceptible to the condition, which in turn makes them more susceptible to...knee injuries."

[Popps]

What a great addition to the offense Walker would be. Plummer would re-write the Broncos record book. (Which he's already started doing.)

[BroncoInferno]

You guys cannot be serious about giving up a player and a draft pick for this guy with a recently busted knee. That's a joke right? Would you buy a car with a busted axle?...I didn't think so.

As Rascal pointed out, there are several examples of guys coming back the year after the injury and playing at a high level, including Steve Smith. Obviously, we would need to get assurances from independant doctors before making the move.

[Play2win]

What a great addition to the offense Walker would be. Plummer would re-write the Broncos record book. (Which he's already started doing.)
Yeah, except the ink is all in RED !!!!

[2KBack]

people need to stop comparing the injury to smith, he had a broken leg, not a knee tear.

[eddie mac]

Let's not forget the Broncos superb history of adding players with some injury history, Middlebrooks, Toviessi etc.

[watermock]

Originally Posted by eddie mac
Would anyone trade 15 and 22 to GB for No6 plus Walker, giving him an estimated trade value of a mid 3rd rounder

Hell yea. We could take Davis or a DE, and keep our second? Don't let his ACL scare you off, they are much better at patching knees up now.

[watermock]

Let's not forget the Broncos superb history of adding players with some injury history, Middlebrooks, Toviessi etc.

Both of those injuries were chronic.

[Man-Goblin]

Would anyone trade 15 and 22 to GB for No6 plus Walker, giving him an estimated trade value of a mid 3rd rounder???

Yes. Walker and Vernon Davis would solidify the receiving corps.

[watermock]

Things that make you go hmmmm....

http://exercise.about.com/library/weekly/aa120800a.htm

Why are football players so susceptible to knee injuries? One explanation comes from New Science which reports on "a condition called SARA (sexually acquired reactive arthritis) in sportsmen, particularly footballers. It seems that footballers have so much sex that they're particularly susceptible to the condition, which in turn makes them more susceptible to...knee injuries."

I could handle that.

[Pat Bowlen]

I could handle that.
Sure, it sounds like a pretty sweet deal, but what that article fails to mention is the millions of dollars these athletes are forced to play for. It's not quite as cushy a setup as it sounds.

[Garcia Bronco]

As Rascal pointed out, there are several examples of guys coming back the year after the injury and playing at a high level, including Steve Smith. Obviously, we would need to get assurances from independant doctors before making the move.


Several guys out of how many?

[Rohirrim]

I still say, you have the picks to take 3 or 4 WRs. (Haas, Orr, Brandon, etc.) and all in the fourth round. Hell, draft 'em. One of them will be good. Maybe you get lucky and two of them are good. Lock them into a five year rookie contracts. It's all gravy.

[bpc]

I would package our 1st's and a fourth for Walker and the 6th easily.

The problem with this being... where are going to come up with the money to sign Walker to an extension and also find the mind to pick up the #6 selection in the draft.

Intrigueing however unlikely. I would take Walker and potentially Williams or Davis and consider this offseason a blazing success. Couple that with the fact that we could land a TE easily in round 2 and pick the best HB off the board in round 4, we would be in fat city.

[Rohirrim]

I would package our 1st's and a fourth for Walker and the 6th easily.

The problem with this being... where are going to come up with the money to sign Walker to an extension and also find the mind to pick up the #6 selection in the draft.

Intrigueing however unlikely. I would take Walker and potentially Williams or Davis and consider this offseason a blazing success. Couple that with the fact that we could land a TE easily in round 2 and pick the best HB off the board in round 4, we would be in fat city.

Trade our firsts, a fourth and our sixth???!!! Put down the paint can. ROFL!

[eddie mac]

Trade our firsts, a fourth and our sixth???!!! Put down the paint can. ROFL!

If that was the scenario then he's saying Walker's worth a 3rd, 4th and 6th in this years draft. :giggle:

[bpc]

Trade our firsts, a fourth and our sixth???!!! Put down the paint can. ROFL!

Maybe you misunderstood me... I said I would easily trade our two 1st round draft picks and one of our 4th's for Walker and the rights to the Pack's #6 pick overall.

Walker would be a huge upgrade for us at the WR position. He has to come back healthy but I don't see that being a problem for him and we can give him the time he needs to get healthy. We have guys that can step up until he is given a clean bill of health. Ashley is here, we also have Rod, Terrell, Devoe, Watts, and I'm forgetting some people but we have an absurd amount of talent at WR. This would be a smart investment pickup who could be paying huge dividends by half way through this season.

Couple that with the fact that we could add Vernon Davis (Rod, Ash, Walker, and Davis in our passing game!? AIR PLUMMER) or Mario Williams to revamp our pass rush, this trade would be a steal in our favor.

[Taco John]

You are right regarding the head count. However, Green is coming off a serious injury and has aged dramatically in the past 2 years. GB simply is not the same team w/o Green.


Gado is better than Green.

Green Bay has no need for a runningback.

[Mile High Shack]

Gado is better than Green.

Green Bay has no need for a runningback.

Davenport is better than both of those 2

it doesn't help that GB keeps losing their entire oline though

now both guards and the center are gone from the team from 2 years ago

Green Bay is going to suck with our w/o Favre this year

[Rohirrim]

Maybe you misunderstood me... I said I would easily trade our two 1st round draft picks and one of our 4th's for Walker and the rights to the Pack's #6 pick overall.

Walker would be a huge upgrade for us at the WR position. He has to come back healthy but I don't see that being a problem for him and we can give him the time he needs to get healthy. We have guys that can step up until he is given a clean bill of health. Ashley is here, we also have Rod, Terrell, Devoe, Watts, and I'm forgetting some people but we have an absurd amount of talent at WR. This would be a smart investment pickup who could be paying huge dividends by half way through this season.

Couple that with the fact that we could add Vernon Davis (Rod, Ash, Walker, and Davis in our passing game!? AIR PLUMMER) or Mario Williams to revamp our pass rush, this trade would be a steal in our favor.

I'm still not convinced whether or not our problem is our WRs or an inaccurate QB. I wonder what our WRs would look like if Tom Brady was throwing them the ball? Why take a chance on a guy that had one good year and then exploded a knee? What if he doesn't come back 100%? Then, you eat the money. Not to mention, there are a couple of WRs we could draft in the fourth that might be able to step in and do the job for a hell of a lot less financial impact. These are the days of tight money. I can't imagine placing that big of a bet on an injured WR.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

When did the 49ers acquire Javon Walker?

[bpc]

I'm still not convinced whether or not our problem is our WRs or an inaccurate QB. I wonder what our WRs would look like if Tom Brady was throwing them the ball? Why take a chance on a guy that had one good year and then exploded a knee? What if he doesn't come back 100%? Then, you eat the money. Not to mention, there are a couple of WRs we could draft in the fourth that might be able to step in and do the job for a hell of a lot less financial impact. These are the days of tight money. I can't imagine placing that big of a bet on an injured WR.

Well I tend to agree with you a little bit on both. There is no doubt that Plummer is no Tom Brady. I question his arm strength more then anything else, if not for that Ashley would have a lot better stats. Still, I think Plummer can be a very good player for us, we just need to find WR's that fit his strengths... to me, that is more of the tall possession type guys that can out leap people for his jump balls that he throws up.

Walker has great size if I can recall and very good speed. I consider him a worthy investment.

I must be honest in observation saying that I don't like the way we pick WR's in the 1st round and I really don't like the way that we have developed them in the past. Maybe Heimberdinger will change that. Maybe he'll change Plummer. Until I see that time though I would much rather go with Walker who is closer to being a proven product on the field. I consider basically all of the 1st round dubbed WR's this year to be more reaches then anything else.

Either way this is a risk. The kicker is if we could land the #6 pick as well. I think that overwhelmingly tips the scales in our favor, picking up a injured pro bowl WR and the possibility of a perenial pro bowl TE or DE.

[eddie mac]

When did the 49ers acquire Javon Walker?

Good shout Herc, my bad, I meant the 5th pick.

[Garcia Bronco]

How int he hell can anybody say Walker is a "huge" upgrade to our receivers when the guy just tore his ACL? How is that even in the realm of possibilty? It's not a huge upgrade....and it's questionable at this piont that it would even be an upgrade. We don't have an accurrate deep ball passer....how is Bad ACL Javon Walker going to change that? He's not.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Good shout Herc, my bad, I meant the 5th pick.

Damn, you ruined it. I expected a WTF, not someone to realizing what I was inferring.

[Mile High Shack]

How int he hell can anybody say Walker is a "huge" upgrade to our receivers when the guy just tore his ACL? How is that even in the realm of possibilty? It's not a huge upgrade....and it's questionable at this piont that it would even be an upgrade. We don't have an accurrate deep ball passer....how is Bad ACL Javon Walker going to change that? He's not.

many players come back just fine from ACL's now days

it happened early in the year and it wasn't a bad one like Daunte Culpepper

I know one thing, Walker is better than Ashley OR Rod if he is healthy

[Hercules Rockefeller]

How int he hell can anybody say Walker is a "huge" upgrade to our receivers when the guy just tore his ACL? How is that even in the realm of possibilty? It's not a huge upgrade....and it's questionable at this piont that it would even be an upgrade. We don't have an accurrate deep ball passer....how is Bad ACL Javon Walker going to change that? He's not.

Bad ACL, and even if you factor out this past season for Javon, except for TDs, his per year stats aren't that much better than Lelie's.

Javon- about 50 balls per season for 800 yds
Ashley- 42 balls and around 750

Yet one needs to be let go, and the other needs to be acquired.

[Garcia Bronco]

many players come back just fine from ACL's now days

it happened early in the year and it wasn't a bad one like Daunte Culpepper

I know one thing, Walker is better than Ashley OR Rod if he is healthy


No many players don't comeback fine from an ACL injury. They comeback...but the use of the word 'fine' doesn't exactly describe it. What does Daunte have to do with this other than he shredded his knee?

Bull****...Javon Walker is not better than Rod Smith and he's comparable to Lelie. Plus, Javon Walker has been out of football for awhile and if he does make it back...he will have not played a professional game for one solid year. If we can get him for a 4th or 5th...great...but anything else would just be dumb...because he's not going to make a serious impact for 2 seasons if he makes one at all.

[Mile High Shack]

No many players don't comeback fine from an ACL injury. They comeback...but the use of the word 'fine' doesn't exactly describe it. What does Daunte have to do with this other than he shredded his knee?

Bull****...Javon Walker is not better than Rod Smith and he's comparable to Lelie. Plus, Javon Walker has been out of football for awhile and if he does make it back...he will have not played a professional game for one solid year. If we can get him for a 4th or 5th...great...but anything else would just be dumb...because he's not going to make a serious impact for 2 seasons if he makes one at all.


I was comparing knee injuries......Culpepper shredded his entire knee, but Javon just tore his ACL

you might want to check on coming back after an ACL

for example, Jamal Lewis ran for over 2,000 yards on 2 reconstructed knees

[Mile High Shack]

Bad ACL, and even if you factor out this past season for Javon, except for TDs, his per year stats aren't that much better than Lelie's.

Javon- about 50 balls per season for 800 yds
Ashley- 42 balls and around 750

Yet one needs to be let go, and the other needs to be acquired.

Javon is more physical than Lelie, and that is what we need

not a wussy boy who slap fights to try to get off the line like coconut hands

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Javon is more physical than Lelie, and that is what we need

not a wussy boy who slap fights to try to get off the line like coconut hands

Good thing Javon has so greatly outperformed Lelie too

[Mile High Shack]

Good thing Javon has so greatly outperformed Lelie too

he had a rough first year, no doubt

but after he finally got "it" he turned it on, unlike Lelie
but I'm sure it's all Plummer's fault

who says give up the farm for him, but if he truly wants out, offer a 4th or a 5th and move on

[Garcia Bronco]

I was comparing knee injuries......Culpepper shredded his entire knee, but Javon just tore his ACL

you might want to check on coming back after an ACL

for example, Jamal Lewis ran for over 2,000 yards on 2 reconstructed knees


And 500 of those yards came against one team. Terry Allen played great for a time on two old school restructure knees. Awesome...you've come up with a couple of success stories. Now compare that to the field.

I don't think Javon is a bad player...nor do I think he won't comeback and produce...but I think way too many people over value him and want change for the sake of change...which isn't good IMO.


Bottom line...let's say he comes back "Good as New"*...we still don't have a QB that can hit him downfield like Favre...so what's the point? An expensive decoy?


*_latest Bang Cartoon

[Mile High Shack]

And 500 of those yards came against one team. Terry Allen played great for a time on two old school restructure knees. Awesome...you've come up with a couple of success stories. Now compare that to the field.

I don't think Javon is a bad player...nor do I think he won't comeback and produce...but I think way too many people over value him and want change for the sake of change...which isn't good IMO.


Bottom line...let's say he comes back "Good as New"*...we still don't have a QB that can hit him downfield like Favre...so what's the point? An expensive decoy?


*_latest Bang Cartoon

I thought Favre sucked worse than Plummer now?

[Hercules Rockefeller]

who says give up the farm for him, but if he truly wants out, offer a 4th or a 5th and move on

I never said I don't want him, and if he can be acquired cheaply they need to. I'm just with Garcia on this. Walker would not immediately be the best WR on this team and the ACL is a huge issue. I also think some people want to use Lelie as the bait to acquire him when it doesn't solve the WR problem since you're subtracting another WR when you add JW.

[bpc]

Wasn't the trade Javon Walker and the #6 overall pick for our two 1st rounders?

You would be a fool to not take that in a heartbeat, especially with our track record drafting. Hell, the table would have already been set for us.

[Mile High Shack]

I never said I don't want him, and if he can be acquired cheaply they need to. I'm just with Garcia on this. Walker would not immediately be the best WR on this team and the ACL is a huge issue. I also think some people want to use Lelie as the bait to acquire him when it doesn't solve the WR problem since you're subtracting another WR when you add JW.

I can see why

b/c Lelie is never going to be a #1 WR, but Javon has a chance to be a solid #1 WR for years to come, assuming his ACL can hack it

[bpc]

I never said I don't want him, and if he can be acquired cheaply they need to. I'm just with Garcia on this. Walker would not immediately be the best WR on this team and the ACL is a huge issue. I also think some people want to use Lelie as the bait to acquire him when it doesn't solve the WR problem since you're subtracting another WR when you add JW.

Investments are not bad especially in our case. We have WR's that can play now while Walker heals. His potential could mean huge things for this organization since he is just now entering his prime and Rod is just now about to exit his.

We can bring him in and give him the time he needs to heal and work himself back onto the field. Denver would be the perfect situation for him and he for us. We could have him as our full #3 WR by week 8 and ready for the stretch run into the playoffs.

[Garcia Bronco]

I thought Favre sucked worse than Plummer now?

We're talking about over 1 season ago...not the current day. I think Favre stopped trying last year...if you saw his games...and they nationally televised enough of them...he was just heaving it up for grabs. If I had to take one for a game..I'd take Favre

[Garcia Bronco]

Investments are not bad especially in our case. We have WR's that can play now while Walker heals. His potential could mean huge things for this organization since he is just now entering his prime and Rod is just now about to exit his.

We can bring him in and give him the time he needs to heal and work himself back onto the field. Denver would be the perfect situation for him and he for us. We could have him as our full #3 WR by week 8 and ready for the stretch run into the playoffs.


If you were talking a chad johnson I would agree...but you're not...you're talking about Javon Walker....he just doesn't have that kind of street cred.

[Play2win]

I'm still not convinced whether or not our problem is our WRs or an inaccurate QB. I wonder what our WRs would look like if Tom Brady was throwing them the ball? Why take a chance on a guy that had one good year and then exploded a knee? What if he doesn't come back 100%? Then, you eat the money. Not to mention, there are a couple of WRs we could draft in the fourth that might be able to step in and do the job for a hell of a lot less financial impact. These are the days of tight money. I can't imagine placing that big of a bet on an injured WR.

BINGO!! We have a winner...

You hit the nail on the head with that one...

The offense isn't going to **REALLY** improve until we find a replacement for the QB position.

It won't resemble a true Mike Shanahan Offense until we get a new QB.

Our Offense bottlenecks at the QB position.

There is a low ceiling on the offense (production) because of the QB position. Since that is the case, we need a QBOTF in here ASAP...

[Atlas]

Walker at 80% will surpass Lelie's 2005 production.

I doubt that. In Walker's first two years he had 64 receptions. Lelie had 72 his first two years. Walker has had one good year in the NFL. He was the number one WR on a team that passed the ball alot giving him lots of balls to catch.

Denver is a running team where Jake throws the ball only 20-25 times a game. Rod is Denver's #1 WR. Jake throws the ball to Rod. FAct is Jake doesn't look Lelie's way. When he does Lelie makes the catch. I can see Walker having numbers that aren't much better than Lelie's even if he does become Denver's #2 WR.

That being said I think Denver should trade for Walker depending on what his contract demands are. Lelie will be a FA next year and getting Walker now will give Denver one of the best 3 WR sets in the NFL.

[watermock]

I don't remember Favre riding his rep as even an alternate to the Pro Bowl like Jake. Yes, the line sucked, but could it of been Walker's absense?

Cullpepper was injured late in the year, and more than an ACL. He tore all three ligaments to spagetti, and ripped catilage. HE might not play next year.

Walkers prognosis was 6-10 months. It's allready been 6 months. July will be ten months. As I have constantly explained, ACL can mean many different things. Gold started at SAM for Tampa and he looks fine to me. I don't understand the hysteria over the ACL.

Listen, the guy was hurt and disgruntled and hates Favre and WILL be traded. Give them a 4th and a conditional pick in 2007 up to a second. So what if we don't have much in 2008...we get 2 firsts, keep Lelie and keep our first in 2007. Or deal Lelie and a 4th. Or our second. It's all about the money for Walker, he's not coming back and might be cut, but who knows really. I would rather give up a few things to keep him off the open market.

Walker tore the ACL

[Mediator12]

First of all, I agree with Atlas and others around here that a new and Better WR is not going to get much more production in this system. It is just not geared to that with Plummer at the helm.

OAK picked up two HUGE weapons in the offseason last year and Collins STILL had trouble completing third down passes. Weapons are ONLY as good as the person using them. That would be Jake. I would prefer to get a premier RB to either WR or TE with Jake at the controls.

As for the ACL injury debate, perception is working against most people here who still think ACL injuries are career threatening in and of themselves. The most crippling thing is losing the miniscus and cartilage that keeps the Knee from rubbing bone on bone.

ACL injuries are repaired successfully 80+% of the time with adequate care, good physical therapy and weekend Warriors. The success rate of Professional's is even higher due to better physical condition, better surgeon's, and elite rehab opportunities. Most Professional athletes recover 100% within 18 months and the reason it takes longer is due to other injuries like the miniscus and other torn ligaments. And, a lot recover fully in under a year. The Hardest part is recovering mentally from the IDEA of having been injured.

I hear people talk about losing a step and this is just not supported by any medical evidence whatsoever. As a former pro athlete, I can say that I have not only researched this but lived it out with fellow rehabbing athletes. I ran a 4.5 40 8 months after My first repair in 1997.

[BroncoInferno]

How int he hell can anybody say Walker is a "huge" upgrade to our receivers when the guy just tore his ACL? How is that even in the realm of possibilty? It's not a huge upgrade....and it's questionable at this piont that it would even be an upgrade. We don't have an accurrate deep ball passer....how is Bad ACL Javon Walker going to change that? He's not.

The difference is that Walker is actually a multi-dimensional receiver, unlike Lelie, and is adept at catching short-to-medium passes as well as the occasional deep ball.

[BroncoInferno]

Javon- about 50 balls per season for 800 yds
Ashley- 42 balls and around 750

Comparable their first two seasons, sure, but Walker emerged in '04 and caught 83 passes and 12 TDs. He is a much better all around receiver than Lelie if healthy, and is more versatile in terms of being able to help in the short to intermediate areas.

[BroncoInferno]

I doubt that. In Walker's first two years he had 64 receptions. Lelie had 72 his first two years. Walker has had one good year in the NFL. He was the number one WR on a team that passed the ball alot giving him lots of balls to catch.

Denver is a running team where Jake throws the ball only 20-25 times a game. Rod is Denver's #1 WR. Jake throws the ball to Rod. FAct is Jake doesn't look Lelie's way. When he does Lelie makes the catch. I can see Walker having numbers that aren't much better than Lelie's even if he does become Denver's #2 WR.

That being said I think Denver should trade for Walker depending on what his contract demands are. Lelie will be a FA next year and getting Walker now will give Denver one of the best 3 WR sets in the NFL.

If we trade for Walker, he'll be the #1 WR.

[BroncoInferno]

First of all, I agree with Atlas and others around here that a new and Better WR is not going to get much more production in this system. It is just not geared to that with Plummer at the helm.

These are assumptions being made strictly on Jake's limitations, which should be considered, but do not take into account Lelie's limitations. Walker is a much stronger player than Lelie and has shown the ability to be a big factor running any type of route, whereas Lelie is only consistently effective on the deep pass. If we traded for Walker, he would be the #1 WR and probably catch around 75-80 passes with Rod catching 55-60 or so as the #2.

[watermock]

As for the ACL injury debate, perception is working against most people here who still think ACL injuries are career threatening in and of themselves. The most crippling thing is losing the miniscus and cartilage that keeps the Knee from rubbing bone on bone.

Most people still think it was the ACL that ended TD"s career. Actually, it was his other knee.

[Paladin]

all of this disucssion has solidified my proposal: wait until after the draft and then offer next year's third IF Walker will sign a deal that does not break the cap out of whack. The Broncos could get their TE, WR and DE in the first two rounds, then fill in where ever they think is best.

There would be time to check out the knee and see if the guy is signable.

[ludo21]

Trade them our 2nd, or 2 fourth rounders for him.

Im on board, id love to get Walker here.

[Lestat]

trading Lelie doesn't help at all, you still then need a 3rd WR & you gamble on Walker's health, if he goes down your once again relying on only Rod to carry the load & denver will surely get mauled then


the best thing would be to have Rod,Ashley & Javon on the roster then use aot of 3 WR sets

[Garcia Bronco]

Trade them our 2nd, or 2 fourth rounders for him.

Im on board, id love to get Walker here.


3 picks for him...that's crazy talk...

Give him a 5th or a 4th...maybe both to make up for the salary you'll have to pay him. He's got no leverage...the Packers have no leverage. Why give up 3 picks and one be a 2nd? That's crazy.

[ludo21]

3 picks for him...that's crazy talk...

Give him a 5th or a 4th...maybe both to make up for the salary you'll have to pay him. He's got no leverage...the Packers have no leverage. Why give up 3 picks and one be a 2nd? That's crazy.

I think i typed wrong. I meant, either a 2nd. OR 2 4th's.

I agree with you and i just remembered what WABBIT said, a 4th would be plenty.

[OrangeShadow]

wouldnt we still have to sign him? and if we did you al know he wants a lot of money

[eddie mac]

I think i typed wrong. I meant, either a 2nd. OR 2 4th's.

I agree with you and i just remembered what WABBIT said, a 4th would be plenty.

Actually he said a 3rd this year and a 4th next year. Which is what we gave to the Falcons.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

#22 for #36 and Walker

[eddie mac]

If we trade for Walker, he'll be the #1 WR.

You forgetting someone called Rod Smith??? If I remember correctly he's still our Number 1 WR and will be till he calls it a day. If someone comes in it's to replace Rod down the road not now when he's still producing 1000yd seasons.

[eddie mac]

#22 for #36 and Walker

We'd have to hope then that Bunkley falls to 15.

[BroncoInferno]

You forgetting someone called Rod Smith??? If I remember correctly he's still our Number 1 WR and will be till he calls it a day. If someone comes in it's to replace Rod down the road not now when he's still producing 1000yd seasons.

I'm not forgetting Rod. At this stage of his career, he is a still a VERY good receiver, but not as good as a healthy Walker. If we trade for Walker, it would be to install him as the #1. That is a stone cold fact.

[eddie mac]

I'm not forgetting Rod. At this stage of his career, he is a still a VERY good receiver, but not as good as a healthy Walker. If we trade for Walker, it would be to install him as the #1. That is a stone cold fact.

Sorry bro but I disagree with that 100%. You gonna change the QB too while you're at it??? It'll take Jake at least another year to recognise another receiver. There's a reason why he throws Rod's way nearly 30-40% of the time.

[bendog]

wouldnt we still have to sign him? and if we did you al know he wants a lot of money
Yeah, and I doubt he'd take an incentive laden one year deal, to see how his knee is.

[eddie mac]

Green Bay have once again stated he's going nowhere.

Packers | Team will not trade J. Walker
Tue, 28 Mar 2006 12:11:26 -0800

ESPNews reports the Green Bay Packers will not trade WR Javon Walker.

[watermock]

#22 for #36 and Walker

That sounds about right, but he's disgruntled. I think a first would grab him outright.

And where did we get a high second rounder?

[BroncoInferno]

Sorry bro but I disagree with that 100%. You gonna change the QB too while you're at it??? It'll take Jake at least another year to recognise another receiver.

That is absurd. When Shanny was thinking about bringing in TO, you think it was to be the #2 receiver? C'mon.

There's a reason why he throws Rod's way nearly 30-40% of the time.

Yep, because Rod is the only consistent receiver. Give him another consistent threat, you just might see the distribution even out a little.

[Smilin Assassin]

From KFFL.COM:

Packers | Team will not trade J. Walker
Tue, 28 Mar 2006 12:11:26 -0800

ESPNews reports the Green Bay Packers will not trade WR Javon Walker.

(edit: sorry Eddie Mac, didn't see ya already nabbed this)

[eddie mac]

That is absurd. When Shanny was thinking about bringing in TO, you think it was to be the #2 receiver? C'mon.



Yep, because Rod is the only consistent receiver. Give him another consistent threat, you just might see the distribution even out a little.

I doubt very much that Mike would have **** on Mr Denver Broncos just to please TO. He'd have been No2 if he'd have come here. Would've been bad enough upsetting the apple cart bringing him in in the 1st place without relegating your best offensive player and one who's everything on and off the field the NFL should be.

[Garcia Bronco]

I swear if we get a second kightouts DT...we'll own people for years

[eddie mac]

I swear if we get a second kightouts DT...we'll own people for years

Would you move up 4 spots for Bunkley bro???

[Garcia Bronco]

There is no number one in Denver's offense...and really...that whole mentality is anti-team. There might be a guy that's the first option on a given play...but really...this whole I'm the number 1..or we need a number 3 receiver...hogwash...every football team needs guys that can block..get open....catch...and run with the ball. I think the rest is just egotistical dribble.

[Garcia Bronco]

Would you move up 4 spots for Bunkley bro???

Depends on what it took to do it. The idea of him lining up next to Warren does make me moist.

[bendog]

I hope Walker busts a leg just so this thread dies. (0:

[Rich Karlis]

Braylon Edwards also tore his right ACL this season.

[BroncoInferno]

I doubt very much that Mike would have **** on Mr Denver Broncos just to please TO. He'd have been No2 if he'd have come here. Would've been bad enough upsetting the apple cart bringing him in in the 1st place without relegating your best offensive player and one who's everything on and off the field the NFL should be.

That is nothing short of ridiculous. TO would have been the #1 receiver. We all love Rod, and he is still a very good player, but get serious.

[DrFate]

Bad ACL, and even if you factor out this past season for Javon, except for TDs, his per year stats aren't that much better than Lelie's.

Javon- about 50 balls per season for 800 yds
Ashley- 42 balls and around 750

Yet one needs to be let go, and the other needs to be acquired.

Walker's best year was 89/1382/12
Lelie's best year was 54/1084/7

I think that is what the Pro-Walker crowd is looking at. He had a Pro Bowl-type year and Lelie hasn't.

[Lestat]

there's a simple answer to the WR dilemma Chad Jackson

even DeAngelo Hall said the player he liked the most at the combine was Cjax & that he's a mini TO with speed :D

[BroncoInferno]

Walker's best year was 89/1382/12
Lelie's best year was 54/1084/7

I think that is what the Pro-Walker crowd is looking at. He had a Pro Bowl-type year and Lelie hasn't.

Exactly.

[DrFate]

Exactly.

I would think the Pro-Walker crowd would say Walker has proven he can play at a that high level and Lelie has proven he can't.

[BombsOverBaghdad]

You guys cannot be serious about giving up a player and a draft pick for this guy with a recently busted knee. That's a joke right? Would you buy a car with a busted axle?...I didn't think so.

I believe that I understand your concerns; that is why I am unwilling to include AL. In my view, Tater is very replaceable.

[Garcia Bronco]

I believe that I understand your concerns; that is why I am unwilling to include AL. In my view, Tater is very replaceable.


That is true...he is...but the wouldn't take a back IMO

[rubaiyat]

A 4th and a situational '07 (3rd if Walker catches 70+ passes, 5th if he catches 40+ passes, 6th otherwise) is what I'd offer.

If they were interested in trading back though I'd consider the 6th overall and Walker for our two firsts, as long as they agree to a situational '07 coming our way depending on Walker's performance (none if Walker catches 70+ passes, a 5th if he catches 50-69, a 4th anything less than that.)

I don't think we have a 3rd next year.

[BombsOverBaghdad]

That is true...he is...but the wouldn't take a back IMO

After what happened to their entire O after A. Green went down -- they would be foolish to not look hard at a deal that included Tater (just my HO )

[BombsOverBaghdad]

I don't think we have a 3rd next year.

I thought that we traded this year's 3rd and next year's 4th?

[Popps]

Well I tend to agree with you a little bit on both. There is no doubt that Plummer is no Tom Brady. I question his arm strength more then anything else, if not for that Ashley would have a lot better stats.

Chris... how would his stats be better when he's leading the league in YPC?

That means that Jake and Lelie are combining on more long throws than any QB/WR pair in the league. How is that possible if Plummer has such a weak arm. How much better does his arm for Ashley than best in the league? Plus, Lelie doesn't do much in the short game, further illustrating that somehow, Plummer is getting him the ball... the long ball.

As for Ashley's problems with the short stuff, they're just that... his problems. Rod has managed to put up great numbers with Jake.

[Popps]

Walker's best year was 89/1382/12
Lelie's best year was 54/1084/7

I think that is what the Pro-Walker crowd is looking at. He had a Pro Bowl-type year and Lelie hasn't.

True, but it's more than that.

Ask 100 football scouts who is the better overall WR, and I'll bet you 100 of them tell you it's Walker. It's not even close. Walker is VERY close to that category of guys who can take over a game. He's shown steady improvement and if not for the knee injury, would have likely had a monster season.
He plays bigger and tougher than Lelie and looks just as fast. He out-fights guys for balls, he's got a nose for the endzone... he's a legitimate star in the making.

Lelie is Lelie. He's got some skills, but he's not going to be a Steve Smith/Randy Moss type. He'll never put the fear of god into teams. Walker, on the other hand... was very close before the injury.

I'd GLADLY dish one of our first picks for him.

[Finger Roll]

trading a first for a player coming off a knee injury that cost him the whole year last year. Yeah, sign me up:( :confuzzle

[Hulamau]

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/nfl/article/0,2777,DRMN_23918_4576109,00.html

Broncos have assets for dealing
Denver's extra picks could lead to trade for Packers' Walker

If Walker was a lineman or even a LB whose level of play was relatively similar for their respective positions, I wouldn't mind taking the risk, but for a Wide Reciever or a Corner rolling the dice after a total knee reconstruction the first year after, without seeing him play, is too big a risk. Even if he does fully recover, its likely he'll only be shell of his former self this year and we would only get the full package in 2007 baring any setbacks. And he isnt worth a first round pick even if perfectly healthy

[rubaiyat]

I thought that we traded this year's 3rd and next year's 4th?

You're right...something clicked weird in my brain.

[Requiem]

Ted Thompson said it'd take a lot of picks to get Walker. Looks like he's not budging...

[watermock]

A trade and Lelie and a 4th would be fine. keep our #1's.

[Traveler]

Packers | Team will not trade J. Walker
Tue, 28 Mar 2006 12:11:26 -0800

ESPNews reports the Green Bay Packers will not trade WR Javon Walker.

[2KBack]

Packers | Team will not trade J. Walker
Tue, 28 Mar 2006 12:11:26 -0800

ESPNews reports the Green Bay Packers will not trade WR Javon Walker.

I guess he's retiring then. Releasing him won't get them anything.

[Hulamau]

True, but it's more than that.

Ask 100 football scouts who is the better overall WR, and I'll bet you 100 of them tell you it's Walker. It's not even close. Walker is VERY close to that category of guys who can take over a game. He's shown steady improvement and if not for the knee injury, would have likely had a monster season.
He plays bigger and tougher than Lelie and looks just as fast. He out-fights guys for balls, he's got a nose for the endzone... he's a legitimate star in the making.

Lelie is Lelie. He's got some skills, but he's not going to be a Steve Smith/Randy Moss type. He'll never put the fear of god into teams. Walker, on the other hand... was very close before the injury.

I'd GLADLY dish one of our first picks for him.

You simply cant make the comparison betwenn Green Bays wide open air attack with cannon-armed Favre throwing 50 yrd spirals on target all afternoon, and Jake "wounded duck past 30 yrds" Plummer in our ball control offensive in which we pass to support the run and not the other way around as in GB.

Its like comparing water and wood. Depends on how you use them.

I'd rather have Jake than Favre as QB at this point of their respective careers, but Walker was the number 1 WR in GB in '04 and the beneficiery of the majority of the game planning when he had his good season. IN 2004 Walker had about 300 yrds more than Ash that same year on 35 more catches for 1384yrds total & 12 TDs for a 15.5 yrd average While Ash had a 20.1 yrd average and 1084 yrds on only 54 catches & 7 TDs even though Ash was the number 2 WR on a team that didnt pass the long ball much and he still lead the leaque the last two years in a row on yrds per attempt.

Now flip the scenario and put Lelie with Favre and GB the past 4 years and Walker with Plummer and I guarantee you we would all be clammering with baited breath over the possibly of picking up Lelie in a trade after his last two likely pro bowl seasons catching the rock from Favre in GB s wide open down field attack. And inspite of Favre throwing more INTs than TDs.

Its possible Walker could be a great pick up for us and his extra 10 to 12 pounds weight over Lelie makes him a good option for going over the middle more, but to assume he is a better WR and will rack up all these stats here simply because of the very different environments and positions he and Lelie have found themselves in the first four years ( i.e. No 1 WR versus No 2 WR since GB didn't have a Rod Smith), is just too superficial.

I'd much rather package a deal to get Vernon Davis with his freak size/speed and great hands combo and settle all our reciever needs in one fell swoop. Having him going short, long and in between will make everyone better including Lelie, Smith. Terrell and Plummer. Plus, with Walkers bum and unproven repaired wheels, its too big a crap shoot to project and fantasize that his one great year in a pass happy offense with a hall of fame QB with a cannon arm (even though Favre has slipped some) will translate into our vastly different scenario here!

[Cito Pelon]

I don't see where Walker, still rehabbing for another 5 months, is worth much of anything. If he comes reeeaaaalllllllly cheap, for the trade and the contract, sure why not. I believe Lelie is unrestricted FA next year, and somebody is gonna give him Terry Glenn kind of money.

[2KBack]

You simply cant make the comparison betwenn Green Bays wide open air attack with cannon-armed Favre throwing 50 yrd spirals on target all afternoon, and Jake "wounded duck past 30 yrds" Plummer in our ball control offensive in which we pass to support the run and not the other way around as in GB.

Wounded duck has never thrown 29 interceptions in a season. Farve was crap last year, not just slipping, full on crap. Could it be maybe Walker made Farve look better than he is? I'm not saying Farve isn't better than jake, of course he was, but Farve looked lost last year and still abit shaky the year before. Walker could have had a lot to do with that.

[Cito Pelon]

I guess he's retiring then. Releasing him won't get them anything.

I guess nobody offered them doodly. I bet he's still available. The game is young. There's still 31 days til draft day.

[2KBack]

I guess nobody offered them doodly. I bet he's still available. The game is young. There's still 31 days til draft day.

I almost want to see the battle between GB and Walker though. I'd like to see if an athlete has the balls to sit out a whole season.

[Tha rock]

this is off of kffl


Packers | Team will not trade J. Walker
Tue, 28 Mar 2006 12:11:26 -0800

ESPNews reports the Green Bay Packers will not trade WR Javon Walker.

[El Minion]

You simply cant make the comparison betwenn Green Bays wide open air attack with cannon-armed Favre throwing 50 yrd spirals on target all afternoon, and Jake "wounded duck past 30 yrds" Plummer in our ball control offensive in which we pass to support the run and not the other way around as in GB.

Its like comparing water and wood. Depends on how you use them.

I'd rather have Jake than Favre as QB at this point of their respective careers, but Walker was the number 1 WR in GB in '04 and the beneficiery of the majority of the game planning when he had his good season. IN 2004 Walker had about 300 yrds more than Ash that same year on 35 more catches for 1384yrds total & 12 TDs for a 15.5 yrd average While Ash had a 20.1 yrd average and 1084 yrds on only 54 catches & 7 TDs even though Ash was the number 2 WR on a team that didnt pass the long ball much and he still lead the leaque the last two years in a row on yrds per attempt.

Now flip the scenario and put Lelie with Favre and GB the past 4 years and Walker with Plummer and I guarantee you we would all be clammering with baited breath over the possibly of picking up Lelie in a trade after his last two likely pro bowl seasons catching the rock from Favre in GB s wide open down field attack. And inspite of Favre throwing more INTs than TDs.

Its possible Walker could be a great pick up for us and his extra 10 to 12 pounds weight over Lelie makes him a good option for going over the middle more, but to assume he is a better WR and will rack up all these stats here simply because of the very different environments and positions he and Lelie have found themselves in the first four years ( i.e. No 1 WR versus No 2 WR since GB didn't have a Rod Smith), is just too superficial.

I'd much rather package a deal to get Vernon Davis with his freak size/speed and great hands combo and settle all our reciever needs in one fell swoop. Having him going short, long and in between will make everyone better including Lelie, Smith. Terrell and Plummer. Plus, with Walkers bum and unproven repaired wheels, its too big a crap shoot to project and fantasize that his one great year in a pass happy offense with a hall of fame QB with a cannon arm (even though Favre has slipped some) will translate into our vastly different scenario here!

Look at the stats David Boston had his 2nd and 3rd year in the league with Plummer chucking the ball:

2000 ari | 16 |71 1156 16.3 7
2001 ari | 16 |98 1598 16.3 8

Plummer can deliver, he just needs the weapons. Look at what TO did to McNabb's production, he improved in every passing category. Walker, if healthy, will bring that kind of performance enhancement to Plummer.

[ludo21]

From KFFL.COM:

Packers | Team will not trade J. Walker
Tue, 28 Mar 2006 12:11:26 -0800

ESPNews reports the Green Bay Packers will not trade WR Javon Walker.

(edit: sorry Eddie Mac, didn't see ya already nabbed this)


smoke screen 8')


........ i hope

[azbroncfan]

This board blows up when a rumor comes about.

[Hulamau]

How idiotic it is to compare the stats of a No 12 WR in a pass orietned team with a Number 2 WR in a run oriented team. Doing so while factoring in the number of balls thrown to each guy makes Ash look a lot better than the Ash detractors typically portray it.

And anyone trying to make the argument that Plummer is an accurate long ball QB is smoking dung weed and everyone in the league knows it.

That he and Lelie did connect up as often as they did is more a function of Lelie's acrobatic talents than it is Plummer's accuracy.

Jake does throw a decent long ball occasionally, but it doesnt take more than a brief rewind and review of almost any game to confrim that time and again Lelie had to stop, come back and make a lunging dive or a jump ball just to have a chance to catch the ball on a simple go pattern past 30+ yrds and this killed so many chances for good RAC, not to mention a good many sure TDs, if only half of those balls had been reasonably on target.

All these supposed stats showing what a potent combo Jake and Lelie are has a lot less to do with Jakes accuracy than Lelies ability in that phase of the game ... in the area of snagging the the long one, even if it turns into a wounded duck or hail mary as it so often did. The precise area where Shanahan and Kubiak clamed that Lelie was the best in the league at.

That scenario is not my opinion its a fact. And that being the way things are with the offense we've been calling and Plummer's mix of great talent in some areas and weaknesses in the area where Ash is strongest, I feel we are better served with a great tight end prospect or another sure possession WR to replace Rod in the next few years and not another Lelie clone which Walker most closely represents.

If we don't make it to the SB this year and we decide to go for a long arm accurate QB next year then fine, another guy like Walker could be a good move of if Lelie does like I suspect he will and bolts the first chance he gets.

In the meantime, our best chances of winning the Super bowl with Jake is not through the long game no matter who the WR is going deep.

[ludo21]

This board blows up when a rumor comes about.


its offseason, what else is there to blow up about?? ;D

[azbroncfan]

The artical talks about mike sherman who isn't even with the team anymore.

[orange 4 life]

i just browsed the 5 pages, but to me this is pretty simple.

if we can make it happen for a reasonable price, do it.
plain and simple.
even if it means paying a little too much when its contract time.

where we CANT afford to pay is in trade.
im fine with giving up picks, but giving up lelie would be an awful move.

lelie has shown that he can have a 1000 yard season, and he was also starting to show towards the end of last season that he could make an impact in the short and intermediate routes as well.

to get rid of one good receiver for another one (even if he is better) just doesnt make sense to me.

we dont need to SWAP receivers.
we need to ADD a receiver to the existing group.

bring him in......as long as we dont have to get rid of lelie.

simple enough.

[BombsOverBaghdad]

This board blows up when a rumor comes about.

That is one of the appeals of this forum -- passionate fans expressing their informed opinions

[Lestat]

but Sherman was his head coach & dealt with him so as a former coach of said player he'd be a good indicator of whether Javon is a trouble maker with the contract & potential TO

or if he's just a good kid that wants his money

[BombsOverBaghdad]

i just browsed the 5 pages, but to me this is pretty simple.

if we can make it happen for a reasonable price, do it.
plain and simple.
even if it means paying a little too much when its contract time.

where we CANT afford to pay is in trade.
im fine with giving up picks, but giving up lelie would be an awful move.

lelie has shown that he can have a 1000 yard season, and he was also starting to show towards the end of last season that he could make an impact in the short and intermediate routes as well.

to get rid of one good receiver for another one (even if he is better) just doesnt make sense to me.

we dont need to SWAP receivers.
we need to ADD a receiver to the existing group.

bring him in......as long as we dont have to get rid of lelie.

simple enough.

Absolutely agree -- this is (again) why I propose a Tater & 4th round pick for Walker. Tater is easily replaced and AL is not.

[ludo21]

Absolutely agree -- this is (again) why I propose a Tater & 4th round pick for Walker. Tater is easily replaced and AL is not.


They are LOADED at RB.

I for one think Tatum is next in line to start. But still, he isnt that valuable as trade bait IMO.

[Master___Pain]

this is off of kffl


Packers | Team will not trade J. Walker
Tue, 28 Mar 2006 12:11:26 -0800

ESPNews reports the Green Bay Packers will not trade WR Javon Walker.

Third time is a charm?!? posts #115 and 118

[BombsOverBaghdad]

They are LOADED at RB.

I for one think Tatum is next in line to start. But still, he isnt that valuable as trade bait IMO.

* Please refer to post #15 -- again, just my opinion.

[BombsOverBaghdad]

Third time is a charm?!? posts #115 and 118

In my opinion, this means nothing. What is GB supposed to do?
I view this as nothing more than posturing by GB to allow them time to work out the best trade scenario.
Reverse the roles, if it were Denver, do you really think that we would go into training camp with such acrimony from a player?

[broncos love]

Adam Schefter just reported on NFL total access that Javon Walker told the Green Bay's front office that he doesn't want to play for the packers next year and wants to be traded. Good news for the broncos. He said the Broncos, Eagles , and 49ers and some other teams were interested. Go get him Shanny

[Hulamau]

Wounded duck has never thrown 29 interceptions in a season. Farve was crap last year, not just slipping, full on crap. Could it be maybe Walker made Farve look better than he is? I'm not saying Farve isn't better than jake, of course he was, but Farve looked lost last year and still abit shaky the year before. Walker could have had a lot to do with that.


No doubt Walker made Favre look better than the sorry excuse for WRs and an offensive line GB had last year, not to mention their sorry ass defense and all the injuries thay had

Please read what I wrote in the paragraph above where I stated I do prefer Plummer over Favre at this stage of their careers going away. But in 2004 (the comparison year in question) even though Favre threw a lot of ill-conceived passes too, he also tossed a lot of beautiful in-stride bombs as well. Some were caught, some weren't, but Walker as their #1 WR and was thus a major beneficiary of the frequency of those passes, and Favre was damn lucky to have Walker as well ... it ALWAYS works both ways when a QB-WR tadem clicks, and Green Bay was a much better overall team in 04 than last year. But comapring Walkers stats as their #1 with Favre and Green Bay pass happy offense, versus Lelie's stats as our #2WR and Jake with our offensive scheme, is simply ludicrous and the kind of ill-conceived logic that makes for some very bad decisions!

The point is not how many INTs Favre threw last year or how many Jake threw in 04, its that the whole situation in Green Bay with a more aggresive deep passing game and a strong arm QB gives a rangy long ball WR a big advantage over having Plummer with our game plans of late in which we go deep a couple times early and then sit on the lead the rest of the game.

If anyone is projecting, based on what Walker did in 2004 in GB, that he would come in here and automatically get 1300+ yrds and 12 TDs with Plummer in this offense, playing as the #2 WR behind Rod Smith, I've got some gorgeous land in Botswana I'd like to interest you in! :-)

The bottom line is that Walker's style of play is similar enough to Lelie's that he isnt the best bargain for our shopping dollars with Plummer at the helm and so long as our style of offense is being tempered to minimize Jakes tendency for making costly mistakes.

Unless, of course, Heimerdigner can work some genuine magic that would put David Copperfield to shame with Plummer's long game accuracy and brings a more creative passing attack to the table this year. However, even if can pull off such a minor miracle (and I dearly pray it happens) then our very own #85 that is already on the roster for '06 and doesn't cost us anything extra this year will fill out his own considerable potential very nicely I suspect, and save us all the expense of trading picks, players and/or cash for a Lelie-clone who is coming off total knee reconstruction!

I fail to see how hard this is to grasp? Its not a slam on Walker, who when healthy is a really good WR, nor on Lelie or even Plummer. Its facing facts and not throwing away our chance to strike while the iron is hot by reverting to a kind of "the grass must be greener on the other side of the fence kind of projections" when we have more urgent areas to fill.

If we are going to start throwing out first round draft picks lets go For V. Davis or be even more creative and snag Mario Williams! I promise you either of those guys along with Lelie, Plummer, Smith and the rest of the gang have a far better chance of helping us win SB 41 than Javon Walker going deep instead of Lelie.

Plus, I'd be willing to bet all the tea in China that Walker is no where near to Lelie's league in speed during this recovery year, particulary with sharp cuts!

[Hulamau]

i just browsed the 5 pages, but to me this is pretty simple.

if we can make it happen for a reasonable price, do it.
plain and simple.
even if it means paying a little too much when its contract time.

where we CANT afford to pay is in trade.
im fine with giving up picks, but giving up lelie would be an awful move.

lelie has shown that he can have a 1000 yard season, and he was also starting to show towards the end of last season that he could make an impact in the short and intermediate routes as well.

to get rid of one good receiver for another one (even if he is better) just doesnt make sense to me.

we dont need to SWAP receivers.
we need to ADD a receiver to the existing group.

bring him in......as long as we dont have to get rid of lelie.

simple enough.

Thats a reasonable approach O4L! We'd all love to have Walker on the team but trading Lelie and a draft pick for him is bad business and nothing but spinning our wheels under the best of circumstances.

IF we are sure of getting a good RB in the first or second round, Tater is expendable as is a 4th, but I wouldn't spend any more than that for Walker and even that is awefully high for a guy coming off that surgery which is so critical for his position, and after which usually takes a couple years to excel again.

The best thing about having Walker here is that Lelie could leave next year if he deicdes to without leaving us in totally holding the bag and having to start over with a long baller.

Besides, Javon and Ash are best friends and talk all the time on the phone so they would work well together and Ash could help him get up to speed, but it will be congested determiining who gets the ball and Rod might need to slide down to #3.

[Ray Finkle]

Until one of our "plugged in" posters gives a nugget, I am not holding my breath on this one...

[Sgt Sauce]

Walker's best year:
'04-'05 89 rec 1382 yrds 12 TD

Lelie's best year:
'04-'05 54 rec 1084 yrds 7 TD


Even with that said, no thanks!! we don't need to throw in a unknown variable when we are close to accomplishing something special.. i don't trust any player who is one year removed from a blown out knee, especially a receiver who relies on his speed.. Ash let us down some last year, but our focus was on running the rock (Sarge 1000+, Tatum just under 1000) and not turning the ball over (which Jake did most of the time). Lelie still opens up the field b/c he's a deep threat. KEEP THE PICKS.. add a nice DE, cover safety, a young receiver and RB.. David Terrell is running stairs as I type (I'll beleive it when i see it, however the 1st round busts from Cleveland worked last year, so maybe Shanny can do it on the other side of the ball!)

:welcome:

[rbackfactory80]

Look at the stats David Boston had his 2nd and 3rd year in the league with Plummer chucking the ball:

2000 ari | 16 |71 1156 16.3 7
2001 ari | 16 |98 1598 16.3 8

Plummer can deliver, he just needs the weapons. Look at what TO did to McNabb's production, he improved in every passing category. Walker, if healthy, will bring that kind of performance enhancement to Plummer.

This is true. The more threats you have the more things will open up, football 101. In all reality since Jake has came here nothing has been done to advance the offense, as defense was the main priority. If we got Walker and drafted, say DeAngelo Williams this offense I believe would be on a different level.

[Den Smith 49]

Per the espn report, Jon Clayton was on and said Green Bay will not trade Javon Walker, "they would want like three 1st round picks and nobody is offering so packers will not trade".

[broncohaven]

I think we're over estimating what it's going to ake to get Walker. To get maximum value, however, we'll have to play the waiting game for awhile. The Pack will try to call Walker to see if he's bluffing (like last year).

[clint7]

Per the espn report, Jon Clayton was on and said Green Bay will not trade Javon Walker, "they would want like three 1st round picks and nobody is offering so packers will not trade".

Wait until Walker's next approach will be to go public and hope Favre retires and that cheese curds are for sissies. We'll then see if Green Bay's no trade stance changes. ;D

[Popps]

Look at the stats David Boston had his 2nd and 3rd year in the league with Plummer chucking the ball:

2000 ari | 16 |71 1156 16.3 7
2001 ari | 16 |98 1598 16.3 8

Plummer can deliver, he just needs the weapons. Look at what TO did to McNabb's production, he improved in every passing category. Walker, if healthy, will bring that kind of performance enhancement to Plummer.

Exactly. Listen to anyone within the organization speak and you'll hear them say that the first thing that surprised them when they brought Jake in was his arm strength. They knew he could move around, they didn't know he had a pretty live arm.

Including your stats, that's at least 4 seasons where he's had guys with ridiculously high YPC totals, often league-leading. People around here will just ignore that.

[Popps]

The bottom line is that Walker's style of play is similar enough to Lelie's !

Wow, we've GOT to be watching different Javon Walkers and Ashley Lelies.

Their games look drastically different to me.... drastically. Walker plays big, he's very physical, he runs great routes and is constantly beating his man.

Lelie runs fast.

Their games aren't remotely the same. Pop in that GB/OAK Mon night game from a couple years back and tell me Lelie has ever come CLOSE to that kind of performance.

Walker is on a different level, talent-wise.

[Hulamau]

Look at the stats David Boston had his 2nd and 3rd year in the league with Plummer chucking the ball:

2000 ari | 16 |71 1156 16.3 7
2001 ari | 16 |98 1598 16.3 8

Plummer can deliver, he just needs the weapons. Look at what TO did to McNabb's production, he improved in every passing category. Walker, if healthy, will bring that kind of performance enhancement to Plummer.

Your stats highlight how good Lelie was as our #2 compared to Boston as the primary wr (along with Moore I beleive) and David got the lion share of all throws his way as well. I remember watching many of those games and witnessed both the great aspects of Jake and his tendency to self destruct. Both were on full display there too.

I think Shanny has very rightly curtailed Jakes chances to make the spectacular plays both for and against us in favor of a steady safer production which is what got us to the Playoffs. And Boston didnt do nearly as well as Ash based on number of catches and balls thrown to him in either of those seasons, so Lelie isnt the problem either.

For instance, look at Ash's stats for 2004 before they clamped down on Jakes passing game last year. Lelie's stats - 16 games, 54 catches and 1084 yrds and 7 TDs for a 20.1 yrd ave. compared to Boston's 2000 year in which it took him 71 catches to hit roughly what Ash did in 54 catches as our #2. The following year Boston did a bit better as the full on main guy but still took him 98 catches to get his 1598 yards and 8 TDs, a great year but easily attainable by Lelie (or Smith in his prime) if and when he is given the number 1 reins. And Lelie got those stats as the #2 WR! Do you see the differece between comparing stats of a primary on one team and #2 WR on another team with an established #1 guy?

Arizona never had a Rod Smith to delay Boston's ascendency so he got the lion share of the thows and catches those years particlaru when he was teh sole man in 2001. In Arizona they didnt have squat for a running game and Plummer was rolling out and throwing for his life 75% of the time as well.

How many INTs did Plummer have in those years as well?

I do think PLummer can work in the right system and my fondest hope of the offseason is that Heimerdinger brings a breath of fresh air to Dove Valley and works hard on JAkes mechanics and little details and that he makes Ash Rod Terrell and Plummer work like amade on timeign sisues togeterh in teh offseason. If so and he iopens the system back up creatively we coudl really surprise a bunch of folks this year.

We cant depend oi nteh conservative planning we got away with last year. Most teamsa were jsut waitng for JAke to self destruct and by the time they realized he wasnt going to it was too late. However most teams saw how to dismantle our conservative system in the last game though and everyone will try to disrupt Jake early in games and prevent us from getign a big early lead and this year and we have to answer with some new emphasis.

[Hulamau]

Wow, we've GOT to be watching different Javon Walkers and Ashley Lelies.

Their games look drastically different to me.... drastically. Walker plays big, he's very physical, he runs great routes and is constantly beating his man.

Lelie runs fast.

Their games aren't remotely the same. Pop in that GB/OAK Mon night game from a couple years back and tell me Lelie has ever come CLOSE to that kind of performance.

Walker is on a different level, talent-wise.


Hi Popps, There is absolutely no question that we are watching different Lelies and I've invited/suggested you go back and watch some of our games in the quiet of the offseason as I know with absolute certainty that you would soften your opinion on Lelie if you did so.

I agree with a lot of your takes in other areas Popp, but on this matter we will simply have to agree to disagree.

Lelie is far from perfect but he's also far better and more valuable to this team than you give him credit for being.

And those stats of Boston as the primary WR for Plummer are worse than Lelies stats as our #2 when the number of balls each got and the primary versus secondary nature of each WR in the two teams scheme are taken into account.

Comparing GB/Oak game of 2004 and sayign ASh never did that is also meaningless as ASh ahas never been the number one target of Plummer much less Brett Favre. HEs never gotten more than 8 or 9 balls thrown his way iin a gmae and that many only a couple of times! Walkjer ia a great WR no doubt wit hthe right system but I think you are dreaming to translate that performace as a regular thing by Walker in our system with Plummer.

Lelie with a healthy Favre or better yet an Elway in his prime would play pinball with the league as well! My only hope is the Heimerdinger can deliver a sufficiently greater number of chances for both Plumemr and Lelie to connect and both excel this year than Kubes gave last year when they tried to rein Plummer in and lets see what happens.

Lelie is CONSTANTLY getting open too, another thing that is as apparent as the day is long on film. But you and I have beat that horse into the ground and until and unless you do go the extra mile to seriously review the film, I suspect you'll continue to view Ash as the bust that you appear to, which is perfectly fine and certainly your perogative. I know better from having followed my own advice, but there is no upside to arguing with an entrenched position with no new input that could possibly change your view of him.

The one thing we all ought to be able to agree on though is that it makes little sense at all to trade a solid Lelie PLUS give up an extra draft pick or two for Walker based on one good year as Brett Farve's primary target after which he blew out his knee and no one has any idea how well he is going to play now!?

It makes no sense whatsoever! If we can bring Javon in and afford it without losing any major weapons thats great. But otherwise, I'd much rather keep our main guys and try to work a deal to grab Mario Williams or Vernon Davis through some creative use of draft picks and maybe Tatum Bell ... in a heart beat.

Have a good one!

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

I am sure the Broncs have inquired about Walker, have talked to most teams in front of them in the draft and explored options regarding trades for many other players. Nothing new - just a GM doing his job, knowing what is going on around the league

[El Minion]

Your stats highlight how good Lelie was as our #2 compared to Boston as the primary wr (along with Moore I beleive) and David got the lion share of all throws his way as well. I remember watching many of those games and witnessed both the great aspects of Jake and his tendency to self destruct. Both were on full display there too.

I think Shanny has very rightly curtailed Jakes chances to make the spectacular plays both for and against us in favor of a steady safer production which is what got us to the Playoffs. And Boston didnt do nearly as well as Ash based on number of catches and balls thrown to him in either of those seasons, so Lelie isnt the problem either.

For instance, look at Ash's stats for 2004 before they clamped down on Jakes passing game last year. Lelie's stats - 16 games, 54 catches and 1084 yrds and 7 TDs for a 20.1 yrd ave. compared to Boston's 2000 year in which it took him 71 catches to hit roughly what Ash did in 54 catches as our #2. The following year Boston did a bit better as the full on main guy but still took him 98 catches to get his 1598 yards and 8 TDs, a great year but easily attainable by Lelie (or Smith in his prime) if and when he is given the number 1 reins. And Lelie got those stats as the #2 WR! Do you see the differece between comparing stats of a primary on one team and #2 WR on another team with an established #1 guy?

Arizona never had a Rod Smith to delay Boston's ascendency so he got the lion share of the thows and catches those years particlaru when he was teh sole man in 2001. In Arizona they didnt have squat for a running game and Plummer was rolling out and throwing for his life 75% of the time as well.

How many INTs did Plummer have in those years as well?

I do think PLummer can work in the right system and my fondest hope of the offseason is that Heimerdinger brings a breath of fresh air to Dove Valley and works hard on JAkes mechanics and little details and that he makes Ash Rod Terrell and Plummer work like amade on timeign sisues togeterh in teh offseason. If so and he iopens the system back up creatively we coudl really surprise a bunch of folks this year.

We cant depend oi nteh conservative planning we got away with last year. Most teamsa were jsut waitng for JAke to self destruct and by the time they realized he wasnt going to it was too late. However most teams saw how to dismantle our conservative system in the last game though and everyone will try to disrupt Jake early in games and prevent us from getign a big early lead and this year and we have to answer with some new emphasis.

Sanders was the seasoned Smith veteran that couldn't impede Boston's talent in ARI. Lelie still hasn't been able to overtake 36 yr old Rod on the depth chart. BTW, I like Lelie and wasn't comparing him to Walker because they are different types of WR's and don't want him traded but if you don't see the difference after 4 yrs. of watching Lelie and noticing that he is not the physical receiver that TO, Walker and (young) Smith are, then this O will not be championship caliber and the D will have to win it, see BAL, TB and '01 NE. You say it yourself, that this conservative O we run is not going to do it, but why does Shanahan run it? Because Denver doesn't have that play-making receiver threat. He had it in Sharpe and the combo of Smith-Eddie. Stop TD and get burned by them. Stop Anderson/Bell/Dayne, and watch the O stall on 3rd down conversions and in the red zone.

The O needs a play-making receiver, Lelie hasn't shown it, Walker has.

[Hulamau]

I've never claimed Lelie was a big physical TO type of Receiver, there is no question that Lelie isnt going to be a TO type of player across the middle and Rod is still playing at a high level or was through last year and this coming year is the first where there is a reasonable chance for ANYONE to unseat him as age is starting to really catch up inspite of him being THE captian of the team.

There are probably 8 to 10 WR in the NFL I would take over Lelie, but its also true that ASh hasn't had the opportunity in this system with Plummer to get the best match to showcase his skills.

We absolutely do need more receiving weapons, no question about that either, and I feel that a Vernon Davis type Receiver is a FAR better match for Plummer's skills and weaknesses than dumping Lelie in favor of Walker as some have suggested here.

There is no question that Lelie needed more time than a seasoned SEC WR to adjust to the pros but nevertheless he did just as well as Walker the first two years when, surprise surprise, they both played the same relative position for their teams! Once Walker became the #1 go-to-guy in year 3 he had his big blow out year.

Even though the throws to Lelie were down last year Ash showed in 2005, particularly the last half of last year, that everytime we gave him the chance he excelled including bailing us out with the only modicum of respect we earned in the AFC championship game by scoring one 30yrd TD and setting up the other TD on a 38 yrd beautiful grab along the sidelines which, by the way, were two of inexplicably only three passes even thrown his way all day!!

Unfortunately, in the majority of last years games Ash was lucky to get 3 or 4 balls even thrown his way and our offense was a "one read and dump it off" affair for most of the year and Ash was only occasionally the go to guy.

I'm hoping that changes this year and it being his contract year I suspect Lelie will be clammering for more balls his way as well and I trust Heimerdinger makes better use of his weapons than Kubes did.

Id love to see Walker paired iup with Lelie but not at the expense of Lelie plus some draft picks when we still don't even know if Walker is going to be anywhere near his 2004 level.

Plus Walker has been injured with minor ailments off and on each year except I think 2004 where incomparison Ash has been rock steady and hasnt yet missed a whole game in four years!

I hope they at least give ASh the reins at the start tof the season and see what he can do with it. Rod can handle #2 just fine and Terrell could pull up the slack at #3. There is liitle chance that Walker will come in and take over #1 in any event not knowing our system this year and is he really going to settle for being #2 or #3, even for just a while, without causing a fuss?

From what I recall Javon and Favre had some run-ins over Walkers committment, or percieved lack thereof, to the team first idea, quite apart from the contract dispute where Favre chastised him for threatening to hold out.

Walker could be a great addition but only if the circumstances and price is right.

[TALON]

Your stats highlight how good Lelie was as our #2 compared to Boston as the primary wr (along with Moore I beleive) and David got the lion share of all throws his way as well. I remember watching many of those games and witnessed both the great aspects of Jake and his tendency to self destruct. Both were on full display there too.

I think Shanny has very rightly curtailed Jakes chances to make the spectacular plays both for and against us in favor of a steady safer production which is what got us to the Playoffs. And Boston didnt do nearly as well as Ash based on number of catches and balls thrown to him in either of those seasons, so Lelie isnt the problem either.

For instance, look at Ash's stats for 2004 before they clamped down on Jakes passing game last year. Lelie's stats - 16 games, 54 catches and 1084 yrds and 7 TDs for a 20.1 yrd ave. compared to Boston's 2000 year in which it took him 71 catches to hit roughly what Ash did in 54 catches as our #2. The following year Boston did a bit better as the full on main guy but still took him 98 catches to get his 1598 yards and 8 TDs, a great year but easily attainable by Lelie (or Smith in his prime) if and when he is given the number 1 reins. And Lelie got those stats as the #2 WR! Do you see the differece between comparing stats of a primary on one team and #2 WR on another team with an established #1 guy?

Arizona never had a Rod Smith to delay Boston's ascendency so he got the lion share of the thows and catches those years particlaru when he was teh sole man in 2001. In Arizona they didnt have squat for a running game and Plummer was rolling out and throwing for his life 75% of the time as well.

How many INTs did Plummer have in those years as well?

I do think PLummer can work in the right system and my fondest hope of the offseason is that Heimerdinger brings a breath of fresh air to Dove Valley and works hard on JAkes mechanics and little details and that he makes Ash Rod Terrell and Plummer work like amade on timeign sisues togeterh in teh offseason. If so and he iopens the system back up creatively we coudl really surprise a bunch of folks this year.

We cant depend oi nteh conservative planning we got away with last year. Most teamsa were jsut waitng for JAke to self destruct and by the time they realized he wasnt going to it was too late. However most teams saw how to dismantle our conservative system in the last game though and everyone will try to disrupt Jake early in games and prevent us from getign a big early lead and this year and we have to answer with some new emphasis.

For all you've written, the fact is, Lelie isnt a complete receiver-Javon is.
We bombed Lelie on roll out play action fakes for one year, after everyone figured out thats all Ashley can do, they pretty much stopped that.

What Lelie cannot do has been evident the entire time he has been here. Go back and look at last years tape, and you'll find out that 3rd and long was a death sentence to any drives we had. The reason why was because everyone in the league knows that on third and long, the only consistent threat we have is Rod Smith. This is because for all the length of time he has been here, Ashley Lelie simply CANNOT beat the press consistently. He is NOT a reliable option when we need him to make a play. He cannot separate from CBs in the short yardage area, plain and simple. We tried HARD to give him chances to be the go to guy on third and long: NOPE. Drama is all we get.
When its third and 6 and we need a play-he doesnt deliver.

Ashley is a bigger threat on a team with a big armed QB. If you let him run, the guy is amazingly fast, and as we can see, most times Jakes arm doesnt get it done without some kind of delayed go route. Ashley is a huge vertical threat.....and thats it.

Javon Walker can do it all. Period.

Why isnt Denver trying to extend Ashley? You would think that they would try to get him under contract, but wisely, I think if they dont trade him, they will see what hes made of this year, simply because his future is on the line, with this being a contract year. In other words, if he isnt motivated this year to be the man, he never will.

Id trade Ashley for Javon in a heartbeat, injury and all. He was injured in the first game of the year, and hes had a good amount of time to rehab. By the time the season rolls around, I think he'll be what we want. That, of course, is my opinion........and I reserve the right to be wrong.:wiggle:

[azbroncfan]

I am sure the Broncs have inquired about Walker, have talked to most teams in front of them in the draft and explored options regarding trades for many other players. Nothing new - just a GM doing his job, knowing what is going on around the league

Exactly

[Atlas]

Look at the stats David Boston had his 2nd and 3rd year in the league with Plummer chucking the ball:

2000 ari | 16 |71 1156 16.3 7
2001 ari | 16 |98 1598 16.3 8

Plummer can deliver, he just needs the weapons. Look at what TO did to McNabb's production, he improved in every passing category. Walker, if healthy, will bring that kind of performance enhancement to Plummer.

That was in Arizona. When Plummer was there they had a more wide open attack b3ecause they couldn't run the ball. SO they let Jake run around and throw the ball 30 times and get 3 ints.

Shanny would never do that to Jake. In Denver he passes 15 to 25 times a game and that is it.

Rod is going to get most of those passes and whoever the second WR is will get the scraps. That's why I said Walker could come to Denver be perfectly healthy and he still might not get any more receptions than what Lelie got.

[SoCalBronco]

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/image.php?u=2889&dateline=1143171671

Time for us to make another "informal inquiry".

[Popps]

Hi Popps, There is absolutely no question that we are watching different Lelies and I've invited/suggested you go back and watch some of our games in the quiet of the offseason as I know with absolute certainty that you would soften your opinion on Lelie if you did so.

I agree with a lot of your takes in other areas Popp, but on this matter we will simply have to agree to disagree.

Lelie is far from perfect but he's also far better and more valuable to this team than you give him credit for being.

And those stats of Boston as the primary WR for Plummer are worse than Lelies stats as our #2 when the number of balls each got and the primary versus secondary nature of each WR in the two teams scheme are taken into account.

Comparing GB/Oak game of 2004 and sayign ASh never did that is also meaningless as ASh ahas never been the number one target of Plummer much less Brett Favre. HEs never gotten more than 8 or 9 balls thrown his way iin a gmae and that many only a couple of times! Walkjer ia a great WR no doubt wit hthe right system but I think you are dreaming to translate that performace as a regular thing by Walker in our system with Plummer.

Lelie with a healthy Favre or better yet an Elway in his prime would play pinball with the league as well! My only hope is the Heimerdinger can deliver a sufficiently greater number of chances for both Plumemr and Lelie to connect and both excel this year than Kubes gave last year when they tried to rein Plummer in and lets see what happens.

Lelie is CONSTANTLY getting open too, another thing that is as apparent as the day is long on film. But you and I have beat that horse into the ground and until and unless you do go the extra mile to seriously review the film, I suspect you'll continue to view Ash as the bust that you appear to, which is perfectly fine and certainly your perogative. I know better from having followed my own advice, but there is no upside to arguing with an entrenched position with no new input that could possibly change your view of him.

The one thing we all ought to be able to agree on though is that it makes little sense at all to trade a solid Lelie PLUS give up an extra draft pick or two for Walker based on one good year as Brett Farve's primary target after which he blew out his knee and no one has any idea how well he is going to play now!?

It makes no sense whatsoever! If we can bring Javon in and afford it without losing any major weapons thats great. But otherwise, I'd much rather keep our main guys and try to work a deal to grab Mario Williams or Vernon Davis through some creative use of draft picks and maybe Tatum Bell ... in a heart beat.

Have a good one!

Well, while we may disagree on Lelie, we agree on the Williams strategy.

Plus, make no mistake... I think Lelie is valuable to this team. I hope we keep him around as a #2 guy. I just don't ever see him as our #1, while I DO see Walker (for example) developing that way.

Hey... what's wrong with Smith, Walker AND Lelie. Plummer would shred whatever records Elway has left.

(Goofball disclaimer: No, I don't think he's on the same planet as Elway, so don't anyone start.)

[Clockwork Orange]

Hey... what's wrong with Smith, Walker AND Lelie. Plummer would shred whatever records Elway has left.

While I agree with you and I'd like to see Javon Walker brought in, I also wouldn't mind them going a different direction and getting Plummer a serious threat at TE to throw to. In his final NFL season (his only with Plummer at QB) Sharpe caught 62 passes for 770 yards and 8 TD's. As much as people bemoan the idea that Jake isn't looking at his #2 receiver enough, I think it would be a fine idea to get him a legit threat at TE to work with. As we see here, he will look for him.

If they can't get up high enough to get Mario Williams (who they need a lot more than any QB in this draft), I wouldn't mind them making a play for Vernon Davis. A deal with the 49ers for the 6th pick should be sufficient. Add him to the offense and watch it go.

[Hulamau]

Well, while we may disagree on Lelie, we agree on the Williams strategy.

Plus, make no mistake... I think Lelie is valuable to this team. I hope we keep him around as a #2 guy. I just don't ever see him as our #1, while I DO see Walker (for example) developing that way.

Hey... what's wrong with Smith, Walker AND Lelie. Plummer would shred whatever records Elway has left.

(Goofball disclaimer: No, I don't think he's on the same planet as Elway, so don't anyone start.)


I could definitely go for that combo! Particularly if we could pull a rabbit ... I mean Mario Williams ... out of the hat as a pleasant surprise in the process.

I'd trade our first from next year plus the two this year for that combo of Walker and Mario, we'd be set and could build that new Lombardi trophy case this spring!

Another alternative as Clockwork suggests, Vernon Davis would also be a knock out addition. Can you image Lelie, Smith, Walker and V Davis!! Plummer would be the envy of every QB in the league and our lineup would give hemmorroids to every DC on our schedule.

Sleep tight Popps its late in Hulaville and time to hit the hay.

[watermock]

could definitely go for that combo! Particularly if we could pull a rabbit ...

The Wabbit is victim of the silence of the Lambs...One month to go and noone has a clue, but I smell something in the works, again. This is just the calm before the storm. Shanahan won't show his hand, if anything, anything he says is a total smokescreen from the past behavior. I heard they are looking at some CB from Minnesota.

[ShutDownPoster]

The Wabbit is victim of the silence of the Lambs...One month to go and noone has a clue, but I smell something in the works, again. This is just the calm before the storm. Shanahan won't show his hand, if anything, anything he says is a total smokescreen from the past behavior. I heard they are looking at some CB from Minnesota.


Is his name 'William Middlerounds?'

[BroncoInferno]

No doubt Walker made Favre look better than the sorry excuse for WRs and an offensive line GB had last year, not to mention their sorry ass defense and all the injuries thay had

Please read what I wrote in the paragraph above where I stated I do prefer Plummer over Favre at this stage of their careers going away. But in 2004 (the comparison year in question) even though Favre threw a lot of ill-conceived passes too, he also tossed a lot of beautiful in-stride bombs as well. Some were caught, some weren't, but Walker as their #1 WR and was thus a major beneficiary of the frequency of those passes, and Favre was damn lucky to have Walker as well ... it ALWAYS works both ways when a QB-WR tadem clicks, and Green Bay was a much better overall team in 04 than last year. But comapring Walkers stats as their #1 with Favre and Green Bay pass happy offense, versus Lelie's stats as our #2WR and Jake with our offensive scheme, is simply ludicrous and the kind of ill-conceived logic that makes for some very bad decisions!

The point is not how many INTs Favre threw last year or how many Jake threw in 04, its that the whole situation in Green Bay with a more aggresive deep passing game and a strong arm QB gives a rangy long ball WR a big advantage over having Plummer with our game plans of late in which we go deep a couple times early and then sit on the lead the rest of the game.

If anyone is projecting, based on what Walker did in 2004 in GB, that he would come in here and automatically get 1300+ yrds and 12 TDs with Plummer in this offense, playing as the #2 WR behind Rod Smith, I've got some gorgeous land in Botswana I'd like to interest you in! :-)

The bottom line is that Walker's style of play is similar enough to Lelie's that he isnt the best bargain for our shopping dollars with Plummer at the helm and so long as our style of offense is being tempered to minimize Jakes tendency for making costly mistakes.

Unless, of course, Heimerdigner can work some genuine magic that would put David Copperfield to shame with Plummer's long game accuracy and brings a more creative passing attack to the table this year. However, even if can pull off such a minor miracle (and I dearly pray it happens) then our very own #85 that is already on the roster for '06 and doesn't cost us anything extra this year will fill out his own considerable potential very nicely I suspect, and save us all the expense of trading picks, players and/or cash for a Lelie-clone who is coming off total knee reconstruction!

I fail to see how hard this is to grasp? Its not a slam on Walker, who when healthy is a really good WR, nor on Lelie or even Plummer. Its facing facts and not throwing away our chance to strike while the iron is hot by reverting to a kind of "the grass must be greener on the other side of the fence kind of projections" when we have more urgent areas to fill.

If we are going to start throwing out first round draft picks lets go For V. Davis or be even more creative and snag Mario Williams! I promise you either of those guys along with Lelie, Plummer, Smith and the rest of the gang have a far better chance of helping us win SB 41 than Javon Walker going deep instead of Lelie.

Plus, I'd be willing to bet all the tea in China that Walker is no where near to Lelie's league in speed during this recovery year, particulary with sharp cuts!

Walker is a better receiver than Lelie if healthy. Don't give me those excuses. If Lelie were as good as Walker, he'd be our #1, not Rod. He's our #2 for a reason. He is not as strong as Walker and cannot push CBs around the way Walker is able to. Any non bias person can see this for the fact that it is.

[Drek]

If we can get Walker for a reasonable price, and get him to sign an extension, I'm all for it, but he isn't a player who unseats Lelie by default and challenges Rod. He'd be fighting with Lelie in camp for the 2nd spot, and he'd start off behind Ash on the depth chart.

A lot of people miss the boat on Ash if you ask me. Always looking to replace him because he's not in the pro bowl. #2 WRs don't typically get the numbers to Pro Bowl. Rod is our #1 until he retires, Shanny has built the current passing offense around Rod's (and Jake's) skills. Lelie doesn't say a word about being blocked, or the offense not fitting his game, or even having his number of passes reduced from '04. Instead he's steadily improved as a blocker and has made clear strides in physical conditioning and his technique as a reciever. Wait and see, Ash will continue to step it up. I just hope he stays in a Broncos uniform.

Oh, and me personally, I'm all for signing Boston to a lower money deal, which is about all he'll get anywhere. With his size he'd make quality #3 competition for Terrell, Watts, Adams, and Devoe.

We don't need WR to address our passing attack, we need a TE who can consistantly create seperation between the hashmarks, 5-15 yards deep. Putz will take the licks, but he just can't shed coverage consistantly enough to be a 60-70 reception TE. That is what we lost when Sharpe left, 20-30 catches a year from the TE position. Pretty obvious why the passing offense has slowed since then.

[BroncoInferno]

If we can get Walker for a reasonable price, and get him to sign an extension, I'm all for it, but he isn't a player who unseats Lelie by default and challenges Rod. He'd be fighting with Lelie in camp for the 2nd spot, and he'd start off behind Ash on the depth chart.

A lot of people miss the boat on Ash if you ask me. Always looking to replace him because he's not in the pro bowl. #2 WRs don't typically get the numbers to Pro Bowl. Rod is our #1 until he retires, Shanny has built the current passing offense around Rod's (and Jake's) skills. Lelie doesn't say a word about being blocked, or the offense not fitting his game, or even having his number of passes reduced from '04. Instead he's steadily improved as a blocker and has made clear strides in physical conditioning and his technique as a reciever. Wait and see, Ash will continue to step it up. I just hope he stays in a Broncos uniform.

Walker would at the very least be the #2, he is simply a more complete receiver than Ash, but you're right on Rod...he'd have to earn that spot and, if healthy, he likely would. Like Popps, I like Lelie, I just don't ever see him developing into a legit #1 WR, whereas Walker has already proven that he is that type of player.

[Drek]

Walker would at the very least be the #2, he is simply a more complete receiver than Ash, but you're right on Rod...he'd have to earn that spot and, if healthy, he likely would. Like Popps, I like Lelie, I just don't ever see him developing into a legit #1 WR, whereas Walker has already proven that he is that type of player. Some Scout's Inc. snippets on both players.

Comment:
He has good height and can get some mismatches with shorter defensive backs. He has good strength and is a vertical threat in the passing game. He does have a second gear and when he catches the ball you better have an angle because he can turn it up a notch. He does not have good foot quickness and it takes him some time to get going. He has a nice change of pace coming off the line and runs precise routes however he doesn't have a burst out of his cuts. He struggles against press coverage and also getting off a jam at the line of scrimmage. He catches the ball against his body most of the time. He does not have good change of direction skills and lacks explosiveness in general. He does not put much effort into blocking and the most you can hope for is that he will screen the defender with his body.

Comment:
He has excellent big play ability but needs to develop consistency He has solid hands and he can adjust outside his frame. Drops come from taking his eye off the ball and trying to run without the ball. He is not real tough - will short-arm balls over the middle. He has very good speed - does not play 4.31 but he is a long strider that can build his speed and get on top of a defender quickly. He needs some route work - can be too straight-line his movements. He does not show the consistent body control to break down his routes and get out quickly. He has very good speed off the line vs. off coverage - needs to work on his release vs. press - can come off straight-line and gets jammed to easily. He is a play-maker.
You don't start if you can't block for Shanahan. Lelie has significantly stepped it up as a blocker, just watch Tatum Bell's youtube highlight video, half of his long runs you can see Lelie blocking a safety to help open Bell's lane.

Lelie also has more upside because he's younger, has better hands, faster, and is the same height. He needs to add more weight again this year like he did last year, but he's been working on that. Walker is coming off an ACL and doesn't know the offense. He would need to really hit it off with Jake to unseat Lelie, as well as learn to block a hell of a lot better. I don't think its real likely.

[BroncoInferno]

Some Scout's Inc. snippets on both players.


You don't start if you can't block for Shanahan. Lelie has significantly stepped it up as a blocker, just watch Tatum Bell's youtube highlight video, half of his long runs you can see Lelie blocking a safety to help open Bell's lane.

Lelie also has more upside because he's younger, has better hands, faster, and is the same height. He needs to add more weight again this year like he did last year, but he's been working on that. Walker is coming off an ACL and doesn't know the offense. He would need to really hit it off with Jake to unseat Lelie, as well as learn to block a hell of a lot better. I don't think its real likely.

What relevance do pre-draft scouting reports have on players who have been in the league 4 years? Walker has proven that he is a physical recveiver who can also hurt you deep. Lelie has been at best inconsistent in the former category. In terms of age, they both went in the same darft, Lelie couldn't be more than a year or so younger than Walker. And, sure, Lelie has more upside simply because he has not realized as much of his potential as Walker has. It's hard to improve a whole lot on 89 catches 1382 yds and 12 TDs. If healthy, it is not only likely, but probably that Walker would not only unseat Lelie for #2, but Rod for #1.

[Drek]

What relevance do pre-draft scouting reports have on players who have been in the league 4 years? Walker has proven that he is a physical recveiver who can also hurt you deep. Lelie has been at best inconsistent in the former category. In terms of age, they both went in the same darft, Lelie couldn't be more than a year or so younger than Walker. And, sure, Lelie has more upside simply because he has not realized as much of his potential as Walker has. It's hard to improve a whole lot on 89 catches 1382 yds and 12 TDs. If healthy, it is not only likely, but probably that Walker would not only unseat Lelie for #2, but Rod for #1.
They aren't predraft, Scouts Inc. updates their scouting reports. These are a year old, unadjusted for the '05 season, so Walker's ACL doesn't get mentioned.

[fontaine]

There are probably 8 to 10 WR in the NFL I would take over Lelie, but its also true that ASh hasn't had the opportunity in this system with Plummer to get the best match to showcase his skills.


What skills? You've already admitted that he's not a physical WR. This offense, or any offense for that matter, is all about players that can run, catch, and block. Lelie does only one of those things well and consistently. Which is run deep routes. His blocking, physical ability in running short/intermediate routes is average at best.

We absolutely do need more receiving weapons, no question about that either, and I feel that a Vernon Davis type Receiver is a FAR better match for Plummer's skills and weaknesses than dumping Lelie in favor of Walker as some have suggested here.

I'd have no problem dumping Lelie for Walker as long as we get VD. Lelie's zero red zone TDs won't be hard to replace.

Even though the throws to Lelie were down last year Ash showed in 2005, particularly the last half of last year, that everytime we gave him the chance he excelled including bailing us out with the only modicum of respect we earned in the AFC championship game by scoring one 30yrd TD and setting up the other TD on a 38 yrd beautiful grab along the sidelines which, by the way, were two of inexplicably only three passes even thrown his way all day!!

Unfortunately, in the majority of last years games Ash was lucky to get 3 or 4 balls even thrown his way and our offense was a "one read and dump it off" affair for most of the year and Ash was only occasionally the go to guy.

I'm hoping that changes this year and it being his contract year I suspect Lelie will be clammering for more balls his way as well and I trust Heimerdinger makes better use of his weapons than Kubes did.


Same story different game. Until Lelie learns to be physical and get open underneath, he'll get table scraps of two or three looks a game on the deep ball.

Seriously, are you related to Lelie? The ONLY person holding back is Lelie. Not this offense, not Plummer, not Rod Smith. You think Shanahan and co. like the fact that their first round pick from 4 years ago can't overtake an aging 36 year old WR? Lelie has had every opportunity to succeed in this game but he's not ready.


I hope they at least give ASh the reins at the start tof the season and see what he can do with it. Rod can handle #2 just fine and Terrell could pull up the slack at #3. There is liitle chance that Walker will come in and take over #1 in any event not knowing our system this year and is he really going to settle for being #2 or #3, even for just a while, without causing a fuss?


that's up to Lelie. If he can show more consistency and ability to get seperation on bread and butter routes in the WCO then the job is his. Sure we could pump up Lelie's stats by throwing him 8-9 passes a game on the only route that he runs well (long passes) but the last time I checked this team was called the Denver Broncos and not the Denver Lelies.

[Old Dude]

Denver Post reports this AM that Moulds is officially out and that the chances of signing Javon Walker are slim. Green Bay simply does not want to trade him if they can avoid it, and even if they do, the asking price will be very high.

Asked about the upcoming draft, Shanahan indicated that there was very little chance that a rookie could come in and start at LB, QB or in the secondary. But there were other areas where a rookie could make an impact and most people can figure out where they are.

Says to me:

TE or WR
RB
DL

Which is mostly what our draftniks have been looking at all along.

[BroncoInferno]

They aren't predraft, Scouts Inc. updates their scouting reports. These are a year old, unadjusted for the '05 season, so Walker's ACL doesn't get mentioned.

Ah, fair enough, I wasn't aware that they did that. At any rate, one need only look at the production of Walker in 2004 to see that his weaknesses as a receiver are far less pronounced than Lelie's.

[bendog]

What the lelie haters miss is that his job in the offensive scheme is to make the FS play back to help with the corner, and because since the Duke left, shanny's shortened the TE and RSmith's routes, so Lelie is always at best the 3rd option. But, Plummer and Lelie definitely regressed in terms of communication and getting the ball deep. Sometimes Plummer missed, and sometimes Lelie just didn't make plays. Getting Walker would be great, but WR isn't the biggest weak spot on the team. Mario and Walker for the first two picks would be a steal though.

[Paladin]

Time to move on. No Walker trade, so might as well talk about something else. As Old Dude said: good stuff in the Post this morning....

[Drek]

Ah, fair enough, I wasn't aware that they did that. At any rate, one need only look at the production of Walker in 2004 to see that his weaknesses as a receiver are far less pronounced than Lelie's.
Walker's '04 season was great, I agree, I just wonder how his game will translate to playing with Jake, especially when he has no knowledge of our offensive system and by some acounts at least a less than average blocker.

Lelie is progressing as a player, not as fast as we'd all like, but he is improving. If Walker hadn't tore his ACL and had a solid '05 yeah, I'd probably rate him over Lelie. Thats not the case though.

But looks like he probably won't be coming here anyways. Thats fine by me, I think we need a TE who can be a consistant target the full length of the field (especially inside the 20's). With that and a #3 who can help in the red zone as well, like Terrell or maybe Boston, we'll start to bring some life back into the passing game.

Boston on a low risk deal would work so well though. He can quickly get a rhythm back with Jake and he can create when he gets the ball in his hands. He's a total headcase, but as long as we can walk away for low money at any time he'd be a similar project to Warren and Brown last year.

[fontaine]

What the lelie haters miss is that his job in the offensive scheme is to make the FS play back to help with the corner, and because since the Duke left, shanny's shortened the TE and RSmith's routes, so Lelie is always at best the 3rd option. But, Plummer and Lelie definitely regressed in terms of communication and getting the ball deep. Sometimes Plummer missed, and sometimes Lelie just didn't make plays.

Yeah that's a nice concept and all, but a more accurate statement is that because of Lelie's lack of skills we've had to run an offense where his job is largely to go deep and track the safety away. Not the other way around.

[bendog]

Yeah that's a nice concept and all, but a more accurate statement is that because of Lelie's lack of skills we've had to run an offense where his job is largely to go deep and track the safety away. Not the other way around.
That's totally untrue. Shanahan explicitly stated he drafted Sonic and Lelie because of lack of speed with offensive skill players. I'm not hyped on Lelie, but given the committment to the run, the no. 2 wr will be running deep routes to push the FS back, and if Rod's or the no.1 guy is getting 85-90 catches, and the TE's getting 40, no no2 is ever gonna get much over 60.

[fontaine]

That's totally untrue. Shanahan explicitly stated he drafted Sonic and Lelie because of lack of speed with offensive skill players. I'm not hyped on Lelie, but given the committment to the run, the no. 2 wr will be running deep routes to push the FS back, and if Rod's or the no.1 guy is getting 85-90 catches, and the TE's getting 40, no no2 is ever gonna get much over 60.


What if we never drafted Lelie and we were running with Rod/Keyshawn Johnson for the past two years?

Would Shanahan still be forcing Keyshawn to go deep, even though his speed sucks? Rod and Keyshawn would be asked to run short/intermediate routes and the primary read would be the guy who's got the size mismatch on the CB to churn out the YAC. The point is Shanahan has tailored this offense around Lelie's strength. Singular, meaning he can only run deep.

If tomorrow Lelie turned to a better WR on short routes/red zone/YAC do you he'd still be running deep constantly?

Speaking of Portis, did Shanahan simply ask him to use his speed and let him run outside all the time? No. He asked him to run to the interior for tough yards and not use his speed all the time and Portis was great at that so he got touches inside/outside. The problem with Lelie is he's still a one dimensional WR trying to fit in a WC run oriented offense. We should have never drafted this one trick pony.

[Mediator12]

What the lelie haters miss is that his job in the offensive scheme is to make the FS play back to help with the corner, and because since the Duke left, shanny's shortened the TE and RSmith's routes, so Lelie is always at best the 3rd option. But, Plummer and Lelie definitely regressed in terms of communication and getting the ball deep. Sometimes Plummer missed, and sometimes Lelie just didn't make plays. Getting Walker would be great, but WR isn't the biggest weak spot on the team. Mario and Walker for the first two picks would be a steal though.

I would tend to disagree with the TE's running shorter routes bendog since Putzier led the league in YPC for TE's two years ago and was third last year.

IMHO, TE has been the third or fourth read's predominately on third down's as well.

[fontaine]

I would tend to disagree with the TE's running shorter routes bendog since Putzier led the league in YPC for TE's two years ago and was third last year.

IMHO, TE has been the third or fourth read's predominately on third down's as well.

What's your take on Lelie?

Do you think he's a great WR who's only been asked to run deep routes? And why the hell has he zero red zone TDs in the past two years even though we've been starved of red zone targets during that time and our red zone offense has mostly been mediocre?

[Popps]

What's your take on Lelie?

Do you he's a great WR who's only been asked to run deep routes?

The Griese Defense: When a players shortcomings are pointed out, defenders of said player will blame everything from the coaching staff to lunar patterns for his performance.

I just love the concept that our staff would spend a mid-first round pick on a guy... only to purposely damage that player's career by not allowing him to help our team? It's actually pretty impressive that people can run that "argument" with a straight face.

Shanahan has called two of the most potent offenses in history, and he just suddenly goes dumb when it comes to Ashley Lelie. Lelie is really a terrific route runner, especially on the short stuff.... Shanahan just wants to damage his own team by not allowing a player to do something he's good at.

Okee dokee.

[fontaine]

The Griese Defense: When a players shortcomings are pointed out, defenders of said player will blame everything from the coaching staff to lunar patterns for his performance.

I just love the concept that our staff would spend a mid-first round pick on a guy... only to purposely damage that player's career by not allowing him to help our team? It's actually pretty impressive that people can run that "argument" with a straight face.

Shanahan has called two of the most potent offenses in history, and he just suddenly goes dumb when it comes to Ashley Lelie. Lelie is really a terrific route runner, especially on the short stuff.... Shanahan just wants to damage his own team by not allowing a player to do something he's good at.

Okee dokee.

I figured Lelie just had major escalator and bonus clauses on his contract tied to how many red zone TDs he scores and Bowlen put the hammer down on that since he's got this unnatural hatred of Hawaii grads.

:clown:

[bendog]

The Griese Defense: When a players shortcomings are pointed out, defenders of said player will blame everything from the coaching staff to lunar patterns for his performance.

I just love the concept that our staff would spend a mid-first round pick on a guy... only to purposely damage that player's career by not allowing him to help our team? It's actually pretty impressive that people can run that "argument" with a straight face.

Shanahan has called two of the most potent offenses in history, and he just suddenly goes dumb when it comes to Ashley Lelie. Lelie is really a terrific route runner, especially on the short stuff.... Shanahan just wants to damage his own team by not allowing a player to do something he's good at.

Okee dokee.
Again, that's not what I said at all. What kills me about you guys is that at the nut what you want is two guys catching 100 balls and going over 1000yds, when shanny isn't running that offense anymore. Did I say Lelie was great? No. He's fast and his production is barely acceptable. But the fact is shanny IS going to get deep, and Rod can't do it anymore. So, anybody you bring in has to have speed, and at most he'd catch 60, cause the underneath wr and te will be Jake's first looks. Given that, Lelie still should have caught 10 more than he did last year, and he and Jake missed on at least 3 deep balls that were either misthrown or lelie didn't run down the ball.

ps, and walker isn't coming cause Den won't give a one for him, and Den doesn't like drew and doesn't have the cap anyway.

[Mediator12]

What's your take on Lelie?

Do you he's a great WR who's only been asked to run deep routes? And why the hell has he zero red zone TDs in the past two years even though we've been starved of red zone targets during that time and our red zone offense has mostly been mediocre?

I think Lelie is getting better each year, but at nowhere near the rate most people here expected. I saw improvement in his blocking and route running last year. I saw him develop some routes at the end of the year. I saw him become a legit #2 WR in this league.

Several things concern me about him though. One his attitude has never been mentally tough. He is soft in his approach to the game and would rather use his speed than his mind to get open. He lacks play recognition skills in sitting down in a zone. Two, he takes plays off and when he does get the chance sometimes it surprises him and he drops the ball or flinches. Even when he gets the chance to be the primary read, especially in the Red Zone, he lacks desire to go get the ball.

Some people would wrongly attribute this to his personality. Personality off the field has little to do with that on the field. However, he needs to develop a stronger mental approach and take the next step. Without this, he will be another first round underachiever. At this level, mental toughness means more than freakish athletic ability. All of these guys are in the top 0.25% of athlete's in the world. What seperates those like Rod Smith who is on the low end of athletic ability in the NFL from Lelie who is on the higher end is their mental game. Rod refuses to be held back, and Lelie refuses to take what he should.

[fontaine]

Again, that's not what I said at all. What kills me about you guys is that at the nut what you want is two guys catching 100 balls and going over 1000yds, when shanny isn't running that offense anymore. Did I say Lelie was great? No. He's fast and his production is barely acceptable. But the fact is shanny IS going to get deep, and Rod can't do it anymore. So, anybody you bring in has to have speed, and at most he'd catch 60, cause the underneath wr and te will be Jake's first looks.

Nah, I just expect a starting WR on this team not be some kind of glorified designated decoy. The only real problem I have with Lelie is that he has no value and no production inside the red zone and we have no one, nobody that can step up at WR and make him think about losing his job.

I think Lelie has all the talent in the world, all he needs is to get the attitude and graft required to do that tough stuff and sometimes the threat of being benched is enough to focus you into it.

[Atlas]

Walker is a better receiver than Lelie if healthy. Don't give me those excuses. If Lelie were as good as Walker, he'd be our #1, not Rod. He's our #2 for a reason. He is not as strong as Walker and cannot push CBs around the way Walker is able to. Any non bias person can see this for the fact that it is.

And you base this on one good season Walker had?

I think Walker could be great but he had one good season.

He played in an offense that threw the ball almost every down.

Put him in Denver's system and he'll get 50 receptions.

[Mediator12]

Again, that's not what I said at all. What kills me about you guys is that at the nut what you want is two guys catching 100 balls and going over 1000yds, when shanny isn't running that offense anymore. Did I say Lelie was great? No. He's fast and his production is barely acceptable. But the fact is shanny IS going to get deep, and Rod can't do it anymore. So, anybody you bring in has to have speed, and at most he'd catch 60, cause the underneath wr and te will be Jake's first looks. Given that, Lelie still should have caught 10 more than he did last year, and he and Jake missed on at least 3 deep balls that were either misthrown or lelie didn't run down the ball.

ps, and walker isn't coming cause Den won't give a one for him, and Den doesn't like drew and doesn't have the cap anyway.


I have always stated that this offense is way more unbalanced than it should be. It has killed their third down percentages for two years. It relies on perfect execution and the pieces there fail to execute that well. That is what makes Jake look way better than he is sometimes. He is one of the best QB's at improvising and buying time to make a play that I have ever seen. Griese could NOT do that. Therefore, Plummer's greatest strength gets put to use way more often than it should and reduces it's overall effectiveness in crunch time.

As for Lelie and Plummer, their chemistry flat out sucks. They hardly ever see the plays the same and this can be reflected in the number of wayward deep balls that Plummer throws to him. Contrast this to the number of deep balls Rod has caught on the same routes. They missed six or seven SURE TD's last season with this miscommunication. That does not include those deep balls that Lelie caught, but if had been in stride would also have been TD's. I give Plummer a lot of crap for his inaccuracy, but Lelie is just as culpable on most of those throws. You will see the staff berate Lelie more often than Plummer after those misses.

I really hope that the addition of Heimerdinger will force Plummer and Lelie to get on the same page by working together more in the film room and the practice field. That is one thing I noticed in training camp last year. Plummer and Lelie were not fluid on their routes and passes together. If they do get in rhythm, they will be a formidable combination.

[BroncoInferno]

Nah, I just expect a starting WR on this team not be some kind of glorified designated decoy. The only real problem I have with Lelie is that he has no value and no production inside the red zone and we have no one, nobody that can step up at WR and make him think about losing his job.

I think Lelie has all the talent in the world, all he needs is to get the attitude and graft required to do that tough stuff and sometimes the threat of being benched is enough to focus you into it.

The idea the Shanny would limit Lelie to just running deep routes to clear out safeties if he could do other things well is absurd. Who was clearing out the safeties when Rod and Eddie formed one of the leagues top WR duos? Neither player was running a lot of post routes. As you correctly pointed out, Shanny has tailored things in order to play to the stengths of the personel, and to mask weaknesses. If Ash could consistently make plays underneath, he would get that opportunity.

[BroncoInferno]

And you base this on one good season Walker had?

I think Walker could be great but he had one good season.

He played in an offense that threw the ball almost every down.

Put him in Denver's system and he'll get 50 receptions.

Green Bay rated 10th in rushing offense in '04, so you pretty much just pulled that one from your hind parts. He would catch a minimum of 70 passes if brought here.

[Atlas]

Green Bay rated 10th in rushing offense in '04, so you pretty much just pulled that one from your hind parts. He would catch a minimum of 70 passes if brought here.`

He will come to Denver and Rod will get 80 passes and him and Lelie would fight it ouit for the rest. Neither one of them getting more than 50 balls.

[BroncoInferno]

`

He will come to Denver and Rod will get 80 passes and him and Lelie would fight it ouit for the rest. Neither one of them getting more than 50 balls.

Dude, we all love Rod, but, at this stage of his career, he would be the #2 WR if Walker were brought in. The Rod Smith of 2001, sure, but 36 year old Rod, while still a very good player, is not as good as a healthy Javon Walker.

[Atlas]

Green Bay rated 10th in rushing offense in '04, so you pretty much just pulled that one from your hind parts. He would catch a minimum of 70 passes if brought here.

Farve COMPLETED about 80 more passes in 2004 than what Jake did last year. That is 80 more passes he completed to his WRs inflating their numbers, Now take into account that Walker was GB #1 WR he is goiong to benefit greatly from these extra 80 completions. Not only did Ashley get 80 fewer chances to get the ball he also is number 2 behind Rod. Like I said Walker comes to Denver him and Ashley will befighting over about 90 balls break that up any way you want but I don't see Walker catching 70 passes next season for the Broncos.

[BroncoInferno]

Farve COMPLETED about 80 more passes in 2004 than what Jake did last year. That is 80 more passes he completed to his WRs inflating their numbers, Now take into account that Walker was GB #1 WR he is goiong to benefit greatly from these extra 80 completions. Not only did Ashley get 80 fewer chances to get the ball he also is number 2 behind Rod. Like I said Walker comes to Denver him and Ashley will befighting over about 90 balls break that up any way you want but I don't see Walker catching 70 passes next season for the Broncos.

Contrary to popular belief, the offense was not limited last year strictly because of Jake, it was also limited because the overall talent on offense is average. Shanny tailored the offense to maximize the available talent, and mask weaknesses. If an upgrade in talent is made anywhere (i.e. by bringing in Walker) you will see the offense adjusted to take advantage of that.

[Hulamau]

I think Lelie is getting better each year, but at nowhere near the rate most people here expected. I saw improvement in his blocking and route running last year. I saw him develop some routes at the end of the year. I saw him become a legit #2 WR in this league.

Several things concern me about him though. One his attitude has never been mentally tough. He is soft in his approach to the game and would rather use his speed than his mind to get open. He lacks play recognition skills in sitting down in a zone. Two, he takes plays off and when he does get the chance sometimes it surprises him and he drops the ball or flinches. Even when he gets the chance to be the primary read, especially in the Red Zone, he lacks desire to go get the ball.

Some people would wrongly attribute this to his personality. Personality off the field has little to do with that on the field. However, he needs to develop a stronger mental approach and take the next step. Without this, he will be another first round underachiever. At this level, mental toughness means more than freakish athletic ability. All of these guys are in the top 0.25% of athlete's in the world. What seperates those like Rod Smith who is on the low end of athletic ability in the NFL from Lelie who is on the higher end is their mental game. Rod refuses to be held back, and Lelie refuses to take what he should.


That's a fair enough assesment Mediator and its true the mental part of the game, and I dont mean intellgience, has developed slower than the physcial part of his game, but last year he made big strides in both areas.

Once thing that jumped out when I carefully studied all the film from last year and focused on the Plummer, Lelie, Smith traid was how much more consistent Lelie was at doing all the little things which improved his blocking game significantly to where he is up there with Rod now as a solid blocker for the run game. He doesn't often level DBs but he is very effective in helping to spring the runner and at least 4 TD by Tater and Anderson were directly attributable to key blocks by Lelie last year.

His focus was also much better thoroughout games and though he did make some mistakes and had a few mental lapses, Jake also regularly under or overthrew him past 25 to 30 yards when he was wide open, and they just didnt look his way very often in the shorter game until later in the season.

There are very few WR in the league, particularly 1st round race horses that are used to being the primary weapon of the offense in the past that can maintain peak focus for an entire game when only 3 to 4 balls tops comes their way game after game, particularly when they are very rarely thrown to down the progression chart when their number isn't called as the primary on a given play.

Thats not an excuse in the slightest for those occasional laspes by any WR, its just a simple fact that every WR I know of is prone to. There is a very understandable relationship between the number of balls a guy gets thrown his way and the game-time rhythmn that manifests between a QB and a WR.

Look at the last Oakland game for instance when Lelie was told up front he was going to be the featured guy and he caught nearly everything short long and across the middle with some very nice RACs.

The last half of the year in particular Ash demonstrated he is ready to take on a broader role and I trust Heimerdinger, Shanny and Plummer all recognize that and give him the opportunity this year. If he flops so be it, but dont keep him locked in to soley the go-deep decoy route in which we toss him one of two balls in the first half taht have a 50% chane of being anywhere near catchable to begin with and then nothing else at all until late in the 4th. That would frustrate Moither Teresa after a few games.

I wathced how Lelie literally exploded at Hawaii when he went from a guy with tons of potential but litle opportunity in his freshman year to Hawaii's entire offense by his Junior year when he was given the trust and the reins as THE GUY.

At this point in his development on this team with our shorter game focus to support Jakes strengths the only way he's going to ever be able to answer the question one way for the other is if we make him the # 1 and throw the ball his way 10 times a game each week. Try that for the first quarter of the season and if the shoe doesnt fit they can go back to the old arrangement and we'll know for sure he's a one trick pony.

Its basically a catch-22 at this point, people that dont see his talent will say he has to earn the right, and people who do recognize it say hes shown more than enough to warrant giving him the chance. I bet we'll find both his talent and the rhythmn with Plummer will blossom when Ash's number is called first and not as an afterthought. Smith and Terrell can still have plenty of short and middle stuff too but at least mix it up enough so that a real rhythmn with the guy is even possible.

Even Kube's said he blamed himself for not making sure Ash was more involved in the passing game.

[Hulamau]

Farve COMPLETED about 80 more passes in 2004 than what Jake did last year. That is 80 more passes he completed to his WRs inflating their numbers, Now take into account that Walker was GB #1 WR he is goiong to benefit greatly from these extra 80 completions. Not only did Ashley get 80 fewer chances to get the ball he also is number 2 behind Rod. Like I said Walker comes to Denver him and Ashley will befighting over about 90 balls break that up any way you want but I don't see Walker catching 70 passes next season for the Broncos.

Thats a key point Atlas in trying to compare what Walker will do there versus here.

Thats why its more relevent to look at what each guy did with the number of balls they caught for thier repsective tams and take into account the very different offensive game plans and QB tendencies.

Folks that see a highlight real of Walker's very best plays and then assume he'll be doing that every game here will likely be disappointed.

[MileHighMania]

Just think...

Denver chose Lelie at #19 and the Packers took Walker on the next pick. It would be nice to have them both...

[Hulamau]

Dude, we all love Rod, but, at this stage of his career, he would be the #2 WR if Walker were brought in. The Rod Smith of 2001, sure, but 36 year old Rod, while still a very good player, is not as good as a healthy Javon Walker.


The key there is a Healthy Javon Walker. Does anyone know of a #1 WR that does that much work each game that has played at their previous level the very next year after a total knee blow out?

There may be such examples so I'm just asking cause I sure dont remember any!

Plus Rod and ASh know this offense like the back of their hand and Walker is going to need some growinng room.

If reasonably recovered he could certainly make a big contribution but to automatically assume he'll waltz in as the #1 is wishful thinking.

Plus I dont know why you still keep going back to the fantasy that people here are claiming Shanny is deliberately holding back Lelies talent? MAybe I've missed some of those posts, but why Lelie is being used as he is is a combination of alot of things.

1. He is by far the best go route guy we have and that is a vital part of our game even if we rarely throw the ball ... someone has to do it and neither Rod nor Devoe could draw serious respect from any DBs in that role.

2. Rod is still ( or was as of last year) very good Pro bowl level in the short to mid possession role and runs close to the best routes of anyone in the NFL. So its no mystery why the arrangement is as it is.

3. When Rod and Eddie Mac were in their prime they could both run the deep stuff and it was doubly potent to mix it up and it kept DBs off balance even though neither had Lelies speed. The biggest benefit of having Walker here if he is healthy is that both Lelie and Walker ccould mix up the short mid to long stuff, keep both involvled in games and in rhythm and make it a real headache for DBs who would constantly be off balacne.

4. Lelie did need more time to get comfortable in the shorter game which he showed last year he ws ready to take on, and being on this team at this time with an aging Rod who is mainly the possesion guy now automatically relagated Ash to the role he has played the last two years. Without a peep of complaint I might add which is very rare these days.

a. Rod is the best short game guy ( our has been up til now)
b. ASh is by far the best long game guy
c. Rod is NOT an effective long baller now thus forcing that entire role on ASh and limiting his short opportunites each game.
d. That doesnt mean ASh cant be highly effective in the short game too as he has proven last year when given the chance.
e . There are only so many balls to go around in this Offfense and the guy running the deeper routes is ALWAYS going to get far fewer.


That is the basic equation we are dealing with and it has nothing to do with Shanahan willfully stunting Lelie's talent. Its Shanny tryign to make the best use of ALL the talent he does have including Rod, ASh, PLummer the TE and to support the run game.

There fore we do need a major new Receiver help preferably one that is great in the short possesion stuff but also a credible long baller that can help free ASh up to do both as well and create a real terror for Defensive coordinators who wont be able to double team anyone. In short we need a Vernon Davis in a bad way! Walker could be a big help but not at the expense of Lelie as that is just robbing Peter to pay Paul in my book.

[bendog]

The idea the Shanny would limit Lelie to just running deep routes to clear out safeties if he could do other things well is absurd. Who was clearing out the safeties when Rod and Eddie formed one of the leagues top WR duos? Neither player was running a lot of post routes. As you correctly pointed out, Shanny has tailored things in order to play to the stengths of the personel, and to mask weaknesses. If Ash could consistently make plays underneath, he would get that opportunity.

Rod was. He's lost his top gear though. Actually, both Emac and Rod ran deep routes, though Rod was the 'speed' guy. Rod cannot run a deep route anymore, except when they mix it up, which they did at some pt last year, and then Lelie made underneath catches. And, while I cannot prove it, it seems to me that Den runs shorter routes now. Actually, I guess the stats do tend to prove it, Jake was complting a better % of passes, but in Elway's last full year, their yards per attempt are nearly the same: 7.24 to 7.22. But, here's the breakdown:

97- 513 PA 287 cmplt. 134 WR (Smith 79 Emac 45) 86 TE 52RB 520 run att

98- 491 PA 290 cmplt. 171 WR (Smith 86 Emac 64) 71 TE 47 RB 525 run att

05- 466 PA 278 cmplt. 159 WR (Smith 85 Lelie 42) 60 TE 58 RB 542 run att

Shanny's current scheme actually runs more that he did with TD! And, in EMacs 1000 year, he only caught 64 passes. Simply put the TOUCHES AREN'T THERE. Still, Lelie isn't as good as he should be. But, we have a bust and a guy who can't tote it at RB, Alexander and a lot of ? at TE, and no outside rush.

[Drek]

Good post Bendog, though I disagree on your asessment of the RB situation. We're in an ok spot there, I think Dayne and Tatum can at least be a similar 1/2 punch to Anderson and Tatum last year, and that was a big part of our success.

Notice the drop in TE numbers though? The year Eddie caught 45 our TEs had 86, then when he had 64 it was taken away from the TEs, who had 70. Lelie has only 42 touches last year but our TEs only have 60. Just not as steady production from the TE spot, both blocking and recieving. Putz made some big clutch plays, but he wasn't an every down target since he was always leaving the field for a better blocking TE.

We need a big all purpose TE who can stretch the field but also create seperation in short yardage between the hash marks or in the end zone. Leonard Pope and Marcedes Lewis would both be great options (I prefer Pope), lot of other interesting TEs in this draft as well that we could target if we don't want a TE with the 22nd pick.

[bendog]

Contrary to popular belief, the offense was not limited last year strictly because of Jake, it was also limited because the overall talent on offense is average. Shanny tailored the offense to maximize the available talent, and mask weaknesses. If an upgrade in talent is made anywhere (i.e. by bringing in Walker) you will see the offense adjusted to take advantage of that.
I don't like Walker's contract, agent or health?, but I agree that the offensive talent is really marginal, and Shanny's amazing. Plummer's a fine athlete, though his arm is not all that great. Bell is elite for 10 carries. Lelie is very fast. And that's about it.

[bendog]

Good post Bendog, though I disagree on your asessment of the RB situation. We're in an ok spot there, I think Dayne and Tatum can at least be a similar 1/2 punch to Anderson and Tatum last year, and that was a big part of our success.

Notice the drop in TE numbers though? The year Eddie caught 45 our TEs had 86, then when he had 64 it was taken away from the TEs, who had 70. Lelie has only 42 touches last year but our TEs only have 60. Just not as steady production from the TE spot, both blocking and recieving. Putz made some big clutch plays, but he wasn't an every down target since he was always leaving the field for a better blocking TE.

We need a big all purpose TE who can stretch the field but also create seperation in short yardage between the hash marks or in the end zone. Leonard Pope and Marcedes Lewis would both be great options (I prefer Pope), lot of other interesting TEs in this draft as well that we could target if we don't want a TE with the 22nd pick.

I agree on the TE. Someone posted something about how Den was supposedly targeting like the 4th rated TE, but nobody knew who it was. Lewis had a slow 40, but I've never seen him play. I've seen Ga a lot, but cannot recall Pope.

ps, I'm hoping Shanny takes Jarious Norwood. He was Miss State's entire team, and I think he ran a 4.4. But, he's prolly 3rd matl, and we don't have a third.

[Atlas]

Contrary to popular belief, the offense was not limited last year strictly because of Jake, it was also limited because the overall talent on offense is average. Shanny tailored the offense to maximize the available talent, and mask weaknesses. If an upgrade in talent is made anywhere (i.e. by bringing in Walker) you will see the offense adjusted to take advantage of that.

THat is your opinion. I don't believe Shanny is limiting the offense because the lack of WR quality but more as a reflection on his trust of Plummer in making the right decisions.

Denver is a running team and a dominate running team. I believe they were 5th in the league in offense so whatever the WRs did last year was enough to make it a dangerous offense. I never said bringing in Walker wouldn't be an upgrade show me the post where I said Walker wasn't an upgrade. I never said Walker wasn't as good as Lelie, show me the post where I said Lelie was better.

I said if Walker came to Denver and had to battle Lelie for the 2nd spot he wouldn't get more than 50 catches. The Denver offense would be much better I agree with that but the fact is Rod is going to get his 80 catches and rightly so. The rest of the passes will be broken up between Lelie, Walker and the TEs and RBs.

[BroncoInferno]

THat is your opinion. I don't believe Shanny is limiting the offense because the lack of WR quality but more as a reflection on his trust of Plummer in making the right decisions.

Denver is a running team and a dominate running team. I believe they were 5th in the league in offense so whatever the WRs did last year was enough to make it a dangerous offense. I never said bringing in Walker wouldn't be an upgrade show me the post where I said Walker wasn't an upgrade. I never said Walker wasn't as good as Lelie, show me the post where I said Lelie was better.

I said if Walker came to Denver and had to battle Lelie for the 2nd spot he wouldn't get more than 50 catches. The Denver offense would be much better I agree with that but the fact is Rod is going to get his 80 catches and rightly so. The rest of the passes will be broken up between Lelie, Walker and the TEs and RBs.

The high rankings on offense are a reflection of Shanny's offensive genius, not the talent. Offensively, he is truly a guy who can take his'n and beat yorn, then take yorn and beat his'n. But, talent wise, we are certainly marginal at best on offense, and that showed most in games where we weren't working with a lead. Part of that is certainly a reflection on Plummer's limitations, but that isn't the whole picture. And it isn't my opinion, either. If what we get out of Lelie is the best we can do for #2 WR in this offense, why even bother inquiring about TO or any other receiver? Obviously, Shanny feels a better receiver will upgrade the offense and provide more flexibility in the play calling.

[Atlas]

The high rankings on offense are a reflection of Shanny's offensive genius, not the talent. Offensively, he is truly a guy who can take his'n and beat yorn, then take yorn and beat his'n. But, talent wise, we are certainly marginal at best on offense, and that showed most in games where we weren't working with a lead. Part of that is certainly a reflection on Plummer's limitations, but that isn't the whole picture. And it isn't my opinion, either. If what we get out of Lelie is the best we can do for #2 WR in this offense, why even bother inquiring about TO or any other receiver? Obviously, Shanny feels a better receiver will upgrade the offense and provide more flexibility in the play calling.

I agree with that. Just not that Walker is going to get 70 recpetions if he signs with the Broncos.

[toad]

My outlook on our current WRs is that they're enough to get it done, but nothing beyond that.

Sure we were the #5 overall offense but we're dominant in the run game and had the luxury of playing ahead (ie conservative) most games.

We were 25th in the NFL in passing attempts and 24th in completions. That's not a sign of a balanced/powerful passing game.

We were also in the lower 1/2 of the league on 3rd downs (36%).

I love Rod, he's probably my favorite Bronco all-time, but we have to face the fact that [even though he's coming off a Pro-Bowl year] he's a chain-moving possession guy who's losing a step. Even if you don't agree you have to accept he's not going to be around forever.

I'm not a big believer in Lelie as a #1 WR. If Lelie had the ability to develop into the 1st Rounder he was taken to be, he would be our #1 by now. He's been in the system for 4 years and is still playing on a much lower level than a 34-year old possession reciever. He's a good #2, don't get me wrong, but if he was #1 WR material that should have already come to be. When Rod's time is up, which in the grand scheme of things isn't too far away, I don't fill comfortable assuming Lelie will take the reins.

Look at it like this: If WR wasn't a problem for us why would Shanny entertain the idea of TO or Walker? If WR wasn't a problem for us than why would nearly every analyst have us projected to take a WR early in the draft? You can argue the analysts aren't right but knowing football is their job so they know at least as much as we think we do.

[bendog]

I'm not so sure the ability to come from behind or not is truly mostly about Plummer.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/trainingcamp01/s/010818cardinals.html

Our no 1 receiver is ... slow. Neither were Putz nor Alexander down field threats. Our offensive line cannot block a seven step drop. Sure, Elway had the arm, but in 96 he had Zimmerman and Broderick Thomas who was rated one of the best pass blockers in the league. Schlereth was stronger than Hamilton.

But, Den needs impact on pass rush, a complete TE with some speed (ie a playmaker), and possibly depth at RB, more than they need to replace Lelie.

[Cito Pelon]

How idiotic it is to compare the stats of a No 12 WR in a pass orietned team with a Number 2 WR in a run oriented team. Doing so while factoring in the number of balls thrown to each guy makes Ash look a lot better than the Ash detractors typically portray it.

And anyone trying to make the argument that Plummer is an accurate long ball QB is smoking dung weed and everyone in the league knows it.

That he and Lelie did connect up as often as they did is more a function of Lelie's acrobatic talents than it is Plummer's accuracy.

Jake does throw a decent long ball occasionally, but it doesnt take more than a brief rewind and review of almost any game to confrim that time and again Lelie had to stop, come back and make a lunging dive or a jump ball just to have a chance to catch the ball on a simple go pattern past 30+ yrds and this killed so many chances for good RAC, not to mention a good many sure TDs, if only half of those balls had been reasonably on target.

All these supposed stats showing what a potent combo Jake and Lelie are has a lot less to do with Jakes accuracy than Lelies ability in that phase of the game ... in the area of snagging the the long one, even if it turns into a wounded duck or hail mary as it so often did. The precise area where Shanahan and Kubiak clamed that Lelie was the best in the league at.

That scenario is not my opinion its a fact. And that being the way things are with the offense we've been calling and Plummer's mix of great talent in some areas and weaknesses in the area where Ash is strongest, I feel we are better served with a great tight end prospect or another sure possession WR to replace Rod in the next few years and not another Lelie clone which Walker most closely represents.

If we don't make it to the SB this year and we decide to go for a long arm accurate QB next year then fine, another guy like Walker could be a good move of if Lelie does like I suspect he will and bolts the first chance he gets.

In the meantime, our best chances of winning the Super bowl with Jake is not through the long game no matter who the WR is going deep.

The truth is probably somewhere in between. Plummer doesn't totally stink, neither does Lelie. Lelie somwhow or other continually ended up with 2 strides on CB's, some of the best in the League. Plummer often found him.

I'm very curious - and have been for a long time - to find out what the passing game will look like with a new OC. Denver never was able to expoit the middle of the field, they never sent the TE up the seam, never tried posts, skinny posts. Seldom did Kubiak go for the end zone from the 30-35. Was this a function of the OC, or a function of a QB/WR/TE combo that couldn't connect in those situations? Lelie was never really given a chance in the red zone. I believe there was one TD pass in the middle of the endzone from any point on the field for the past 5-6 years. Was that a function of the OC, or a function of a QB/WR/TE combo that couldn't connect in those situations?

[Atlas]

My outlook on our current WRs is that they're enough to get it done, but nothing beyond that.

Sure we were the #5 overall offense but we're dominant in the run game and had the luxury of playing ahead (ie conservative) most games.

We were 25th in the NFL in passing attempts and 24th in completions. That's not a sign of a balanced/powerful passing game.

We were also in the lower 1/2 of the league on 3rd downs (36%).

I love Rod, he's probably my favorite Bronco all-time, but we have to face the fact that [even though he's coming off a Pro-Bowl year] he's a chain-moving possession guy who's losing a step. Even if you don't agree you have to accept he's not going to be around forever.

I'm not a big believer in Lelie as a #1 WR. If Lelie had the ability to develop into the 1st Rounder he was taken to be, he would be our #1 by now. He's been in the system for 4 years and is still playing on a much lower level than a 34-year old possession reciever. He's a good #2, don't get me wrong, but if he was #1 WR material that should have already come to be. When Rod's time is up, which in the grand scheme of things isn't too far away, I don't fill comfortable assuming Lelie will take the reins.

Look at it like this: If WR wasn't a problem for us why would Shanny entertain the idea of TO or Walker? If WR wasn't a problem for us than why would nearly every analyst have us projected to take a WR early in the draft? You can argue the analysts aren't right but knowing football is their job so they know at least as much as we think we do.

I agree with that. It's just that everyone here is convinced that Walker is so much better than Lelie. The fact is they might be on the same level. Once again I'll say that Walker has had one good year and that year might be over stated because Farve was throwing the ball all the time. He had 540 pass attempts in 2004 as compare to Plummers 456. Obviously that is going to make a differnece in a WR's stats.

Walker comes in it would definately help Denver, but make no mistake he comes to Denver he isn't going to the Probowl in 2006, he isn't going to catch 70 passes and score 10 TDs. That doesn't mean he won't help Denver reach the Superbowl.

[24champ]

The Denver Broncos apparently are looking seriously into trading for Javon Walker, though whether they will offer enough to pry the unhappy wide receiver from the Green Bay Packers is another matter.

Walker, 27, has vowed to never again play for the Packers because they twice refused to extend and improve his contract. Earlier this year, Walker went public with his wish for the Packers to trade or release him.

Denver coach Mike Shanahan has made informal inquiries about Walker, the Rocky Mountain News reported Tuesday, though there’s no indication he’s made an offer to the Packers.

The Broncos have extra picks in both the first and fourth rounds of next month’s NFL draft, but it’s difficult to think they’d part with a first-round pick for a player coming off surgery to repair a torn right knee ligament, as Walker is.

A Packers spokesman said neither General Manager Ted Thompson nor coach Mike McCarthy would comment about Walker. Both are attending the NFL’s annual meeting in Orlando, Fla.

Thompson appears averse to trading Walker mainly because he’s a quality player, but also because it could suggest to players they can be traded if they threaten to sit out.

http://www.packersnews.com/archives/news/pack_25365965.shtml


Also there was a poll on this-

36% said trade Walker
17% said give Walker a new contract
47% said make him play under his current contract.

Approx. 35,000 people (mostly packer fans I assume.) voted.

[Garcia Bronco]

Walker comes in it would definately help Denver, but make no mistake he comes to Denver he isn't going to the Probowl in 2006, he isn't going to catch 70 passes and score 10 TDs. That doesn't mean he won't help Denver reach the Superbowl.

Good point...Lelie just might do that this year.

Lelie and Plummer just need to spend time together practicing...after regular practice...in the off-season..all year around until they get it together. Lelie's not going to be a physical guy like number 80. He can still work on being a physical guy, but the two of them need to work with what they have...and that's Lelie's speed and getting the ball to him in stride.

I think they can do it. Whatever it takes to win it.

[Cito Pelon]

. . . . . .And why the hell has he zero red zone TDs in the past two years even though we've been starved of red zone targets during that time and our red zone offense has mostly been mediocre?

Yeah, that's a good question. You need to ask Kubiak that question. I noticed they tried to run fades to Lelie about 1-2 times last year, didn't connect, so that was out of the playbook. Why? I don't know. I continually hear about ShanaKubiak, "if you can't do it in practice, you won't get a chance on gameday." That's how to get good practice players on the field, but not get your best players on the field.

For instance, KJ never would have been on the field, he was cut, but MA had the groin injury, they resigned KJ, and hell, the guy has been a very productive player. Sometimes you have to roll the dice on players, give them the chance to excel on gameday.

[Cito Pelon]

. . . . . He lacks play recognition skills in sitting down in a zone. . . ..

It looked like there was only one player that ran to an open spot last year, and that was Rod. Obviously, the passing game period needed some fine-tuning. How much was the players, and how much was coaching?

[Garcia Bronco]

All these receivers and Plummer need to be a team within the team.

[Hulamau]

Good point...Lelie just might do that this year.

Lelie and Plummer just need to spend time together practicing...after regular practice...in the off-season..all year around until they get it together. Lelie's not going to be a physical guy like number 80. He can still work on being a physical guy, but the two of them need to work with what they have...and that's Lelie's speed and getting the ball to him in stride.

I think they can do it. Whatever it takes to win it.

Absolutely Garcia and Cito, its not exactly rocket science and that one great play that worked like a dream in 2004 in which Plummer hits Lellie right at the goaline from about 35 to 30 yards out wasnt even attempted but twice last year and one of those was the TD against Pittsburg. Almost no one can defend that play with Lelie's speed and skill at making those kind of difficult grabs and its right at the edge of Plummer's "distance with reasonable accuracy" range and yet Kubes just ditched it all year and I could never understand why! Five or six of Lelie's seven TD passes in 04 were on that same play.

The thing I'm most excitied about this year is the possiblity that Heimerdinger after reviewing all the film the past few years will make it a point to drill ASh and Plummer together until the cows come home so Plummer knows when he has to throw it so that Ash hasnt already run past his arm's range and vice versa.

So often last year the long passes looked like sand-lot football with Plummer breaking out of the pocket then rolling wide right and just chunking it into one quadrant of the field by which time Ash had already run through his patten and was free lancing around waiting to see where it was coming from so he could try to make a leaping stab at catching it which killed any chance for many runs after the catch much less in stride TDs.

With some more concentrated work by both of them and better use of their respective talents I think this year could bring about a much brighter outcome for Lelie, Plummer and as a result the whole team with a new OC in town.

Its another reason why I was relieved when it seemed ASh was staying (knock on wood he makes it through the draft) so that we could see what he could do with a more aggresive and creative game planning which the fresh blood of Heimerdinger is sure to bring.

[Hulamau]

The problem is I don't see Lelie being very happy about Walker coming in even though they are great friends unless ASh gets a fair shake at the #1 spot this year as its his contract year and you know he wants a chance to show what he can do for his one big shot at retirement money.

I bet Shanny is going to try to trade Lelie for Walker and get a 4th rounder out of Green Bay to account for Walkers bum knee. We might not get it and it might wind up being an even swap, but I just dont see both guys on the same team at the same time.

I could see us draft a young first round WR with Ash still here to groom him in case he does leave next year, but neither Walker nor ASh are going to want to settle for being #2 or #3 and Ash has been plenty patient behind Rod the past two years and he has got to see this year as his life time pay day!

Being stuck behind at #2 or even #3 before the season starts simply wont cut it for him I suspect. I also dont think Walker is going to be any where near as much a team-oriented player as Ash has been so we cant count on him settling for anyhting but the top spot right away after his "pro bowl" year.

Something has got to give if this thing is going to happen.

[maher_tyler]

Hi Popps, There is absolutely no question that we are watching different Lelies and I've invited/suggested you go back and watch some of our games in the quiet of the offseason as I know with absolute certainty that you would soften your opinion on Lelie if you did so.

I agree with a lot of your takes in other areas Popp, but on this matter we will simply have to agree to disagree.

Lelie is far from perfect but he's also far better and more valuable to this team than you give him credit for being.

And those stats of Boston as the primary WR for Plummer are worse than Lelies stats as our #2 when the number of balls each got and the primary versus secondary nature of each WR in the two teams scheme are taken into account.

Comparing GB/Oak game of 2004 and sayign ASh never did that is also meaningless as ASh ahas never been the number one target of Plummer much less Brett Favre. HEs never gotten more than 8 or 9 balls thrown his way iin a gmae and that many only a couple of times! Walkjer ia a great WR no doubt wit hthe right system but I think you are dreaming to translate that performace as a regular thing by Walker in our system with Plummer.

Lelie with a healthy Favre or better yet an Elway in his prime would play pinball with the league as well! My only hope is the Heimerdinger can deliver a sufficiently greater number of chances for both Plumemr and Lelie to connect and both excel this year than Kubes gave last year when they tried to rein Plummer in and lets see what happens.

Lelie is CONSTANTLY getting open too, another thing that is as apparent as the day is long on film. But you and I have beat that horse into the ground and until and unless you do go the extra mile to seriously review the film, I suspect you'll continue to view Ash as the bust that you appear to, which is perfectly fine and certainly your perogative. I know better from having followed my own advice, but there is no upside to arguing with an entrenched position with no new input that could possibly change your view of him.

The one thing we all ought to be able to agree on though is that it makes little sense at all to trade a solid Lelie PLUS give up an extra draft pick or two for Walker based on one good year as Brett Farve's primary target after which he blew out his knee and no one has any idea how well he is going to play now!?

It makes no sense whatsoever! If we can bring Javon in and afford it without losing any major weapons thats great. But otherwise, I'd much rather keep our main guys and try to work a deal to grab Mario Williams or Vernon Davis through some creative use of draft picks and maybe Tatum Bell ... in a heart beat.

Have a good one!
I don't think anyone could have said it better!

[maher_tyler]

While I agree with you and I'd like to see Javon Walker brought in, I also wouldn't mind them going a different direction and getting Plummer a serious threat at TE to throw to. In his final NFL season (his only with Plummer at QB) Sharpe caught 62 passes for 770 yards and 8 TD's. As much as people bemoan the idea that Jake isn't looking at his #2 receiver enough, I think it would be a fine idea to get him a legit threat at TE to work with. As we see here, he will look for him.

If they can't get up high enough to get Mario Williams (who they need a lot more than any QB in this draft), I wouldn't mind them making a play for Vernon Davis. A deal with the 49ers for the 6th pick should be sufficient. Add him to the offense and watch it go.

That's what i'm talking about! Vernon Davis could be the next Shannon Sharpe at TE!

[fontaine]

Absolutely Garcia and Cito, its not exactly rocket science and that one great play that worked like a dream in 2004 in which Plummer hits Lellie right at the goaline from about 35 to 30 yards out wasnt even attempted but twice last year and one of those was the TD against Pittsburg. Almost no one can defend that play with Lelie's speed and skill at making those kind of difficult grabs and its right at the edge of Plummer's "distance with reasonable accuracy" range and yet Kubes just ditched it all year and I could never understand why! Five or six of Lelie's seven TD passes in 04 were on that same play.


Good point. That play accounted for most of Lelie's TD in 2004. The reason why it was taken out was that defenses started accounting for it by moving the safety closer over the top and CBs gave Lelie big cushions to break up that play. So it was no longer a high percentage play.

This is where I have issues with Lelie. Once that long pass was accounted for by defenses he didn't adjust. To me Lelie just isn't fluid enough to run multiple routes effectively. Yeah he's got talent, but he's limited because when secondaries account for long passes then what's he got? What can he bring to the table? For example, if Lelie was more of a threat to get YAC then secondaries couldn't just play him off a cushion and be forced to come in closer to get the tackle in. THAT'S when you can send him on those long routes where he can blow past a DB for that 35 yard TD pass. As it is, Lelie doesn't have enough in his skill set to mix it up and that does limit him.


The thing I'm most excitied about this year is the possiblity that Heimerdinger after reviewing all the film the past few years will make it a point to drill ASh and Plummer together until the cows come home so Plummer knows when he has to throw it so that Ash hasnt already run past his arm's range and vice versa.

Yeah, I'm hoping Heimerdinger can bring a fresh outlook to our gameplanning.

[watermock]

That's what i'm talking about! Vernon Davis could be the next Shannon Sharpe at TE!

I thought we royally raped Gibbs and would be drafting inside the top 10. DAMN YOU TO HELL JOE

[Killericon]

Bump.

[oubronco]

HA HA this is great

[Ratboy]

/facepalm

http://kevinchiu.org/emote/facepalm.jpg

[epicSocialism4tw]

Now this would be a good acquisition.

Hilarious!

Dude, among your recent displays of scouting brilliance, this one might take the cake.

Jake Long has no chance at being the first pick, right?

What about Jim Bates?

Should I stop there?

;D

[ScottXray]

I saw this thread had been bumped and I just couldn't read it again.

Its just TOO painful...
ARGGHHHH!