Freakin Lunatic

[Bronx33]

http://img378.imageshack.us/img378/4194/ahmadinejad4a0zf.jpg
"As the imam said, Israel must be wiped off the map."

"The real Holocaust is what is happening in Palestine where the Zionists avail themselves of the fairy tale of Holocaust as blackmail and justification for killing children and women and making innocent people homeless."

"We ask the West to remove what they created sixty years ago (Israel) and if they do not listen to our recommendations, then the Palestinian nation and other nations will eventually do this for them."

"If anyone shows aggression to the Iranian nation’s rights, Iran will wipe the dark stain of regret on their foreheads."

--MAHMOUD AHMADINEJAD, Iranian president

[Crushaholic]

http://img378.imageshack.us/img378/4194/ahmadinejad4a0zf.jpg
"As the imam said, Israel must be wiped off the map."

"The real Holocaust is what is happening in Palestine where the Zionists avail themselves of the fairy tale of Holocaust as blackmail and justification for killing children and women and making innocent people homeless."

"We ask the West to remove what they created sixty years ago (Israel) and if they do not listen to our recommendations, then the Palestinian nation and other nations will eventually do this for them."

"If anyone shows aggression to the Iranian nation’s rights, Iran will wipe the dark stain of regret on their foreheads."

--MAHMOUD AHMADINEJAD, Iranian president

Them are fightin' words...:kungfu:

[Bronx33]

The dude even looks crazy.

[epicSocialism4tw]

I guess we'll be moving from Iraq to Iran pretty soon. This is really fun stuff. Its what we get for our dependance on international markets.

[Bronx33]

First, Ahmadinajad was not elected - he was appointed. Ahmadinajad only received 19% of the first vote - second place - with Rafsanjani receiving a full 2 points more in an election where the top 5 candidates went like this in the polls:

Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani 21%
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad 19%
Mehdi Karroubi 17%
Mohammad Bagher Ghalibaf 13%
Mostafa Moeen 13%

[Bronx33]

Iran wants UN to probe “rights abuses” in U.S.

That's right iran want's to probe us for human rights abuses!

Iran Focushttp://www.iranfocus.com/uploads/img43f5a87233462.jpg

Tehran, Iran, Mar. 28 – Iran’s Foreign Minister has expressed “concern” over “human rights abuses” in the United States and called on the United Nations to investigate the matter.

Mottaki censured “widespread human rights violations in the U.S.”, highlighting the treatment of black people and Muslims.

He called for the United Nations to appoint a new Special Rapporteur to investigate and report on “cases of human rights violations by America”.

Mottaki made the remarks on Monday during a meeting with Cuban Transport Minister Carlos Manuel Pazo, the government-run news agency Fars reported.

[Rohirrim]

Let's see now, the Cubans and Iranians are going to investigate us for human rights abuses? I swear, sometimes I think I'm living in Wonderland.

[Bronx33]

Let's see now, the Cubans and Iranians are going to investigate us for human rights abuses? I swear, sometimes I think I'm living in Wonderland.

Probably just to avert attention from the real subjects, but my god they look like morons doing it, reading blogs from iranians i can say they are not ignorant people and can see the goverment for what it really is. This is what i really feel sorry for is the people of iran because it's a fact they don't have the same ideologies as their goverment in charge.

[orangeatheist]

http://img378.imageshack.us/img378/4194/ahmadinejad4a0zf.jpg
"As the imam said, Israel must be wiped off the map."

Compare with:

"If anyone shows aggression to the Iranian nation’s rights, Iran will wipe the dark stain of regret on their foreheads."

--MAHMOUD AHMADINEJAD, Iranian president

This guy's a living example of doublethink (http://www.answers.com/topic/doublethink).

[freak6]

The interesting question is why is there an Israel, and what right do they have to that land that others do not.

It's like a stupid lie, that over time just festers, and gets worse and worse and worse.

Again, religon is the root cause of this.

Get rid of religon, teach philosophy and practice it.

Worlds problems, solved.

[Old Dude]

I guess we'll be moving from Iraq to Iran pretty soon. This is really fun stuff. Its what we get for our dependance on international markets.

Time to start brushing up on your Farsi.

[orangeatheist]

Again, religon is the root cause of this.

Get rid of religon...

Truer words.......never spoken.....

[alkemical]

can 'unreligion' be a religion?

[Bronx33]

Truer words.......never spoken.....


Probably the answer though but not a reality, reality is religion taking it's collective head out od it's a**.

[gunns]

[QUOTE]This is what i really feel sorry for is the people of iran because it's a fact they don't have the same ideologies as their goverment in charge./QUOTE]

Amazing how they are so much like us.

[epicSocialism4tw]

can 'unreligion' be a religion?

Yes. As is atheism.

[Bronx33]

[QUOTE]This is what i really feel sorry for is the people of iran because it's a fact they don't have the same ideologies as their goverment in charge./QUOTE]

Amazing how they are so much like us.


That's very true..

[orangeatheist]

Yes. As is atheism.

Really, llama? So, explain to us all how atheism is a religion. Since religion is typically defined (and so defined for the purposes of this discussion) as:

1. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.

2. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.

Why don't you tell us all how non-belief in the supernatural and rejection of any notion of a creator and governor of the universe qualifies as a religion?

[epicSocialism4tw]

Really, llama? So, explain to us all how atheism is a religion. Since religion is typically defined (and so defined for the purposes of this discussion) as:

1. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.

2. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.

Why don't you tell us all how non-belief in the supernatural and rejection of any notion of a creator and governor of the universe qualifies as a religion?


You forgot these definitions from dictionary.com:

3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.

4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

So, orangeatheist...

What do you believe about the cosmology of the universe?

[orangeatheist]

You forgot these definitions from dictionary.com:

3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.

4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

So, are you trying to imply that atheism is a "set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader" or that atheism is a
"cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion"?

How would you like to go about providing evidence to buttress this argument. And, be careful when you do, because if you want to say that atheism is a "cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion" and that is what qualifies it as a "religion" then you'd better be prepared to qualify a whole lot of other things as "religion", too. Astro-science, democracy, sex among them.


So, orangeatheist...

What do you believe about the cosmology of the universe?

I "believe" it is a natural phenomenon. And until given sufficent evidence to believe otherwise I see no reasonable alternative to this "belief".

[epicSocialism4tw]

I "believe" it is a natural phenomenon. And until given sufficent evidence to believe otherwise I see no reasonable alternative to this "belief".

Okay, so you have your potentially temporary belief. I guess that your beliefs exist in a fluxuous continuum? Or are they nihilistic? Believing in something that is by nature in a state of flux means that you must believe in nothing, no? Or is it satisfying to know that a world of such beautiful order exists in spite of such chaos?

[alkemical]

Really, llama? So, explain to us all how atheism is a religion. Since religion is typically defined (and so defined for the purposes of this discussion) as:

1. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.

2. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.

Why don't you tell us all how non-belief in the supernatural and rejection of any notion of a creator and governor of the universe qualifies as a religion?


would not believing in something, be the same as believing in something though?

Wouldn't your belief in 'unbelief' be just as aiken to someone who 'believes'?

[bendog]

I'm not saying the guy isn't a dangerous loon, but under the nuke non-proliferation treaty, we were supposed to get rid of our nukes. Moreover, we DID actually invade Iraq to depose a govt that it's pretty clear was not a danger to anyone but its own citizens (yeah Saddam paid some suicide bombers in Israel and the occupied territories), so I'm not willing to concede that the neocons in charge of the US aren't equally as loony in their own way.

[freak6]

I think a world without religons based upon a specific god figure, that you worship, with attached myths and the such, is definitely in our future.

I was reading one of my books by the Dalai Llama, this one about religon and science and how science changes religious beliefs and such. One part that was very true was how in his words:

Society used to get thier ethics from thier religon, and it was left to that. With religon becoming less and less a part of our more secular society, what has come in to replace that gap in ethics. Parents are left on thier own to teach thier children good ethics in many cases. What would definitely help our socieity as a whole, would be MANDATORY PHILOSOPHY CLASSES, from 1st grade through 12th grade.

In the elementary schools they could include lessons from the early greek philosophers, teaching common values etc... Then as the kids get thier arms arouond philosophy it could be expanded into a 1 semester per year course. If this was done, our society would be leaps and bounds better than it is, with less crime, less poverty (by means of good people becoming elected, not greedy fks that give 8 billion dollar tax breaks to Exxon making record PROFITS) etc..

When I start my politcal career this will be a bill I will push for hard.

[orangenblue2]

Yes. As is atheism.

It is if "not collecting" coins is a "hobby". I would also guess, in your world, that all of those "Santa isn't real-ists" practice a religion as well. Seriously, man, you pulling out unused/rarely used dictionary definitions and arguing semantics is really feeble. What's strikingly odd is when you theists feel you've gained some victory by labeling atheism a religion. It's pathetic really.

"If atheism is a religion, then health is a disease"

[epicSocialism4tw]

It is if "not collecting" coins is a "hobby". I would also guess, in your world, that all of those "Santa isn't real-ists" practice a religion as well. Seriously, man, you pulling out unused/rarely used dictionary definitions and arguing semantics is really feeble. What's strikingly odd is when you theists feel you've gained some victory by labeling atheism a religion. It's pathetic really.

"If atheism is a religion, then health is a disease"

According to at least one definition from the dictionary that orangeatheist used fits the criteria:

4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

Edit: There is no victory, only an observation.

[orangenblue2]

According to at least one definition from the dictionary that orangeatheist used fits the criteria:

4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

I'll let him debate that with you.

Edit: There is no victory, only an observation.

Okay, I'll amend the statement thusly, "What's strikingly odd is when you theists feel you've gained something by labeling atheism a religion. It's still pathetic, really.

[alkemical]

OnB2/Orangeathiest:

My question on unbelief being a belief - psycologically the same behaviour of those who 'believe' can also appear in those that 'disbelieve'.

I'm not trying to 'trap' you guys - i just want to know if you guys would agree that there are those athiests that fall into that as well.

trust me guys - i defend your stance even though i don't agree with it (as in you have the right to do what you want)

[epicSocialism4tw]

Okay, I'll amend the statement thusly, "What's strikingly odd is when you theists feel you've gained something by labeling atheism a religion. It's still pathetic, really.

"We" theists gain nothing by labeling you a religion. It simply removes one more rung from the ladder of arrogance that some of you perch yourselves upon.

[orangenblue2]

OnB2/Orangeathiest:

My question on unbelief being a belief - psycologically the same behaviour of those who 'believe' can also appear in those that 'disbelieve'.

I'm not trying to 'trap' you guys - i just want to know if you guys would agree that there are those athiests that fall into that as well.

trust me guys - i defend your stance even though i don't agree with it (as in you have the right to do what you want)

My post originally dealt with Llama calling atheism a "religion". I disputed that. Your question is a little different. It truly is a question of semantics and these questions tend not to lend themselves to tidy answers, and I'll try and answer it this way. I conclude, based on all available evidence, that the earth's core isn't made of grape Bubble Yum. If we use your side of the argument, I hold a belief in "A-grapeBubbleYummism". That is preposterous. I find no reason whatsoever to elevate the "god concept" over any other unsupported concept the human mind can come up with; including grapeBubbleYummism. Semantic arguments are silly, aren't they??? Peace...

[orangenblue2]

"We" theists gain nothing by labeling you a religion. It simply removes one more rung from the ladder of arrogance that some of you perch yourselves upon.

How does this "labeling you a religion" remove "one more rung"???...and why would you be concerned about where some of us "perch" ourselves???

[epicSocialism4tw]

How does this "labeling you a religion" remove "one more rung"???

Well, you have to understand that one of the beliefs of atheism at large is that "religion" as is understood in laymans terms is something that is unintelligent and that hinders the forward movement of empirical secularism. To be defined as a religion would make them just like everyone else. There would be no percieved intellectual superiority. Heck, just look at your fellow atheist orangeatheist's sig image.

[orangeatheist]

would not believing in something, be the same as believing in something though?

Wouldn't your belief in 'unbelief' be just as aiken to someone who 'believes'?

No. Do you have belief in the unbelief of invisible pink fairies who live in your yard and make yellow patches in the grass?

Look. I learned awhile ago that even atheism is a bit absurd (I'd change my screen name if I could). The whole notion of a god --or even an active disbelief--is nonsensical. I look at my kids who have NO concept of this deity and realize this is the natural state of humanity. No one --without aid from some priest, minister, rabbi, Imam, shaman or other deluded individual--has the natural inclination to believe in a god. The belief in god in the modern world is the result of conditioning. It's a behavior passed down from generation to generation. It all started, millennia ago, when our ancestors had to come up with some kind of explanation for phenomenon they didn't understand. Well, we're not our Neanderthal ancestors and we don't need to perpetuate the superstition.

I decided to take a lesson from my children and abandon the whole notion of belief or disbelief in something that wouldn't have come up in the first place. It's not that I actively reject the notion of a god. I just find the whole concept absurd.

[orangeatheist]

Well, you have to understand that one of the beliefs of atheism at large is that "religion" as is understood in laymans terms is something that is unintelligent and that hinders the forward movement of empirical secularism. To be defined as a religion would make them just like everyone else. There would be no percieved intellectual superiority. Heck, just look at your fellow atheist orangeatheist's sig image.

Exactly. It's not that atheism really is a religion; it's just that true religionists realize the damning nature of their practices and wish to "level" the playing field by giving the same damning label to their opponents.

Thanks, llama, for recognizing your game and how inappropriate and dishonest it is. Atheism is no more a practiced religion than stamp collecting. In fact, I'd say it's even less so. Atheism isn't something I've studied. It's just a conclusion. I certainly don't wake up every morning and thank Non-God I'm an atheist nor do I give thanks to Non-God for the food at my dinner table. Non-God doesn't get 10% of my income Sunday mornings nor do I await my reunion with Non-God at the end of my life.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Exactly. It's not that atheism really is a religion; it's just that true religionists realize the damning nature of their practices and wish to "level" the playing field by giving the same damning label to their opponents.

Thanks, llama, for recognizing your game and how inappropriate and dishonest it is. Atheism is no more a practiced religion than stamp collecting. In fact, I'd say it's even less so. Atheism isn't something I've studied. It's just a conclusion. I certainly don't wake up every morning and thank Non-God I'm an atheist nor do I give thanks to Non-God for the food at my dinner table. Non-God doesn't get 10% of my income Sunday mornings nor do I await my reunion with Non-God at the end of my life.

I would encourage you to refer to your fellow atheist Madeliene Murray-O'Hare, who seemed to believe that atheism was a tangible, defineable set of beliefs based in naturalism. A simple glance at her famous address in 62 reveals that much without doing much digging.

You are avoiding the question with dull rhetoric, OA. You wanted this discussion, so lets have it. Lets pull away from semantic juggling for one moment and take a look at what atheism is. If you truly believe that it is nothing more than a conclusion based on a set of perceptions, then prove it. Why then is there an atheistic movement with shared common beleifs that raises funds to get law passed in court? Does that not show a conscientious effort based on a set of beliefs? They are obviously performed with zeal if they are willing to commit that much time and effort into it.

Your statement that atheism is a "conclusion" and nothing more is minimizing what atheism is in society. It is a movement, a set of beliefs, led by people, and with even with the goal of proselytization!

[epicSocialism4tw]

Exactly. It's not that atheism really is a religion; it's just that true religionists realize the damning nature of their practices and wish to "level" the playing field by giving the same damning label to their opponents.


That's quite petty and could be considered indicative of an inferiority complex. Not by the group with the label, mind you.

The playing field is already level. Its called the marketplace of ideas, where your conclusions regarding a-theism (abscence of God-ism), are no more proven true by data than theism. You are right in saying that it is a conclusion, but you are wrong in saying that that conclusion is the only thing that makes an atheist an atheist. Atheism is the foundation of a doctrine. Actually, its the foundation of several different doctrines. Doctrines are the foundations of religions.

Anyhoo, Im posting a thread on this so that we can quit disrupting this one...

[alkemical]

No. Do you have belief in the unbelief of invisible pink fairies who live in your yard and make yellow patches in the grass?

Look. I learned awhile ago that even atheism is a bit absurd (I'd change my screen name if I could). The whole notion of a god --or even an active disbelief--is nonsensical. I look at my kids who have NO concept of this deity and realize this is the natural state of humanity. No one --without aid from some priest, minister, rabbi, Imam, shaman or other deluded individual--has the natural inclination to believe in a god. The belief in god in the modern world is the result of conditioning. It's a behavior passed down from generation to generation. It all started, millennia ago, when our ancestors had to come up with some kind of explanation for phenomenon they didn't understand. Well, we're not our Neanderthal ancestors and we don't need to perpetuate the superstition.

I decided to take a lesson from my children and abandon the whole notion of belief or disbelief in something that wouldn't have come up in the first place. It's not that I actively reject the notion of a god. I just find the whole concept absurd.


I guess what i was looking at (and you took me to a surpsing place with your answer, so my point is now moot) - was the psycological effect of 'believing' - is the same for either 'believers' or 'disbelievers'. - each side has that 'quality' of wanting to be correct that it forges and reinforces the belief to the point of judgemental actions - for both 'theiests/beleivers' and 'athiests/disbelievers'

[Bronx33]

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2006/04/02/international/i074157D15.DTL

I wonder how effective a underwater missile is against a B-1 bomber?

Iran said Sunday it has successfully test fired a high-speed underwater missile capable of destroying warships and submarines.

The Iranian-made missile has a speed of about 222 mph underwater, Gen. Ali Fadavi, deputy head of the Navy of the elite Revolutionary Guards, said.

He called it the fastest underwater missile in the world — but it has the same speed as the Russian-made VA-111 Shkval, developed in 1995 and believed to be the world's fastest.

It was not immediately known if the Iranian missile was based on the Shkval.

"It has a very powerful warhead designed to hit big submarines. No warship can escape from this missile," Fadavi told state-run television.

[alkemical]

anyone think that russia or china isn't selling them equipment?

[bendog]

No. Do you have belief in the unbelief of invisible pink fairies who live in your yard and make yellow patches in the grass?

Look. I learned awhile ago that even atheism is a bit absurd (I'd change my screen name if I could). The whole notion of a god --or even an active disbelief--is nonsensical. I look at my kids who have NO concept of this deity and realize this is the natural state of humanity. No one --without aid from some priest, minister, rabbi, Imam, shaman or other deluded individual--has the natural inclination to believe in a god. The belief in god in the modern world is the result of conditioning. It's a behavior passed down from generation to generation. It all started, millennia ago, when our ancestors had to come up with some kind of explanation for phenomenon they didn't understand. Well, we're not our Neanderthal ancestors and we don't need to perpetuate the superstition.

I decided to take a lesson from my children and abandon the whole notion of belief or disbelief in something that wouldn't have come up in the first place. It's not that I actively reject the notion of a god. I just find the whole concept absurd.

That's most odd. Even an athiest should realize the universal archetypes, and common need of man to have an explanation of why we exist, and the current "rationalizations' of why there must be a god include the basic need of children to "know this reason." eg cs lewis.

[bendog]

Naw, bushii looked into putin's eye and saw his soul.

[BroncoInferno]

The playing field is already level. Its called the marketplace of ideas

So, anything that wins in the "marketplace of ideas" is inherently of value? Pornography is multi-billion dollar a year industry. So double-penetration is obviously a valuable idea since it is such a winner in the "market place of ideas".

[bendog]

I prefer one on one or even solo in my porn