Afghan faces death penalty for converting to Christianity

[Old Dude]

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=1746943&page=1

Wow.

Rahman's case contradicts Article 7 of Afghanistan's constitution, which assures that "the state shall abide by … the Universal Declaration of Human Rights." That declaration states that "everyone has the right to freedom of thought … to change his religion or belief."



However, the constitution also states that Islamic law takes precedence over secular law and international treaties. Furthermore, the supreme court of that country has the right to veto certain provisions and interpret compliance with such treaties.

[Mile High Shack]

this surprises you?

[Old Dude]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-2095003,00.html



"He would be forgiven if he changed back, but he said he was a Christian and would always remain one. We are Muslims and becoming a Christian is against our laws. He must get the death penalty," said Mr Wasi.

Repeated request for an interview with Mr Rahman were rejected by prison officials who said the Justice Ministry had threatened to sack them if an interview was granted.

One of his cell mates Sayad Miakhel, 30, told The Times: "He is standing by his words he will not become a Muslim again, he has been a Christian for over 14 years. It is what he believes in."

[Bronx33]

Stand up for yourself and you die, another sad part about the islamic faith.

[Rascal]

And people say Christians aren't persecuted.

[alkemical]

if we opened up some water parks would it help over there?

[Old Dude]

So what would happen if the guy converted back to Islam, right on the chopping block, and then a week or two later changed his mind again?

[epicSocialism4tw]

So what would happen if the guy converted back to Islam, right on the chopping block, and then a week or two later changed his mind again?

They would kill his children and family right in front of him and slowly disembowel him while feeding his raw intestines and abdominal organs to ravenous suicide bombers.

[Spider]

1 thing is clear , we dont understand these people , or thier religion ...............

[epicSocialism4tw]

1 thing is clear , we dont understand these people , or thier religion ...............

I heard a good description of the regional social environment today on the news. The guy (I cant remember who) said that he spent 14 years in the region I believe and that the people over there find perfect justification in overreacting on emotion first (killing innocent people while whipped into a frenzy) and then looking back in retrospect on the situation with critical eyes. Like a giant dysfunctional relationship where husbands routinely kill wives in a fury and its viewed by the community as being legit because he was so angry. Now, that is backwards.

[Spider]

I heard a good description of the regional social environment today on the news. The guy (I cant remember who) said that he spent 14 years in the region I believe and that the people over there find perfect justification in overreacting on emotion first (killing innocent people while whipped into a frenzy) and then looking back in retrospect on the situation with critical eyes. Like a giant dysfunctional relationship where husbands routinely kill wives in a fury and its viewed by the community as being legit because he was so angry. Now, that is backwards.
sad but I believe it , one thing I havent shared is I had a good friend that I went ot school with go into the navy , he tried out to be a S.E.A.L. but couldnt hold his breath long enough , but anyhoo he was in the 1st gulf war , and some of the things he told me .........The Arabs would row out in row boats and open fire o n war ship with Assault AK47 rifles ......... when they was in port , they had to watch thier interactionswith Muslim women , in fact 1 female serving on the ship was attacked in a shopping district for going out with a uncovered face ..... Damn near a big fight over that , but the Saudi police stepped in .........

[epicSocialism4tw]

sad but I believe it , one thing I havent shared is I had a good friend that I went ot school with go into the navy , he tried out to be a S.E.A.L. but couldnt hold his breath long enough , but anyhoo he was in the 1st gulf war , and some of the things he told me .........The Arabs would row out in row boats and open fire o n war ship with Assault AK47 rifles ......... when they was in port , they had to watch thier interactionswith Muslim women , in fact 1 female serving on the ship was attacked in a shopping district for going out with a uncovered face ..... Damn near a big fight over that , but the Saudi police stepped in .........

Very emotional people. Maybe we can start measuring their limbic neurons to see if they have evolved a disproportionate ratio limbic based circuits to cerebral neurons. :)

[Spider]

Very emotional people. Maybe we can start measuring their limbic neurons to see if they have evolved a disproportionate ratio limbic based circuits to cerebral neurons. :)
or just get em stoned ;D

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Rahman's case contradicts Article 7 of Afghanistan's constitution, which assures that "the state shall abide by … the Universal Declaration of Human Rights." That declaration states that "everyone has the right to freedom of thought … to change his religion or belief."


However, the constitution also states that Islamic law takes precedence over secular law and international treaties. Furthermore, the supreme court of that country has the right to veto certain provisions and interpret compliance with such treaties.

Huh? ???

I thought that, according to GeeDubya and his supporters, "freedom is on the march" in Afghanistan??

[epicSocialism4tw]

or just get em stoned ;D

Then they would turn paraniod. We dont want paranoid, quasi-hallucinating suicide bombers running around.

[Spider]

Huh? ???

I thought that, according to GeeDubya and his supporters, "freedom is on the march" in Afghanistan??
it should be ........

[Spider]

Then they would turn paraniod. We dont want paranoid, quasi-hallucinating suicide bombers running around.
Didnt say it was a perfect plan ;D

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

it should be ........

Last time I discussed Afghanistan with a bush supporter I was regaled with stories about how Smirky McChucklenuts had transformed the country into a veritable oasis of freedom and democracy.

http://www.bartcop.com/doctrine-monk.gif

[ClevelandBronco]

Last time I discussed Afghanistan with a bush supporter I was regaled with stories about how Smirky McChucklenuts had transformed the country into a veritable oasis of freedom and democracy.

"Smirky McChucklenuts" doesn't sound dangerous enough. If you're still going for impeachment I'd suggest that you're going to need something more evil-sounding.

Adolf McChucklenuts. Benito McChucklenuts. Josef McChucklenuts. Fidel McChucklenuts. Hillary McChucklenuts.

I don't know. You're the Hollywood guy. Work on it.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

"Smirky McChucklenuts" doesn't sound dangerous enough. If you're still going for impeachment I'd suggest that you're going to need something more evil-sounding.

Adolf McChucklenuts. Benito McChucklenuts. Josef McChucklenuts. Fidel McChucklenuts. Hillary McChucklenuts.

I don't know. You're the Hollywood guy. Work on it.

Actually, I was reaching for laughs, but I like your suggestions and I'll keep them on file.

[ClevelandBronco]

Actually, I was reaching for laughs, but I like your suggestions and I'll keep them on file.

You keep, uh...hmm, files, you say? Files...

In that case, I'd just like to make it clear to the incoming and very worthy Peoples' Republic of Planetary Peace Through Eccumenical Personal Socialism that I never really supported the Bush Adminis...

OW!...OW!..DAMN IT!...OWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!

I MEANT TO SAY THE BUSH CRIME FAMILY! I meant to say crime family! Really. I did. I'm sorry...

Please stop. (sobbing) Please...stop.

[epicSocialism4tw]

You keep, uh...hmm, files, you say? Files...

In that case, I'd just like to make it clear to the incoming and very worthy Peoples' Republic of Planetary Peace Through Eccumenical Personal Socialism that I never really supported the Bush Adminis...

OW!...OW!..DAMN IT!...OWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!

I MEANT TO SAY THE BUSH CRIME FAMILY! I meant to say crime family! Really. I did. I'm sorry...

Please stop. (sobbing) Please...stop.

That's good theatre!:rofl:

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

You keep, uh...hmm, files, you say? Files...

In that case, I'd just like to make it clear to the incoming and very worthy Peoples' Republic of Planetary Peace Through Eccumenical Personal Socialism that I never really supported the Bush Adminis...

OW!...OW!..DAMN IT!...OWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!

I MEANT TO SAY THE BUSH CRIME FAMILY! I meant to say crime family! Really. I did. I'm sorry...

Please stop. (sobbing) Please...stop.

Very good, comrade.

We'll take your statement into consideration when we process you into the reindoctrination center.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I MEANT TO SAY THE BUSH CRIME FAMILY! I meant to say crime family! Really. I did. I'm sorry...

Yuk yuk yuk!

Yeah - can you believe them goofy liberals? Comparin' our God-fearin' leader and his administration to a "crime family?"

There's absolutely nothin' that would warrant such a comparison, I tell ya.

(Just ask Valerie Plame.)

[Spider]

Last time I discussed Afghanistan with a bush supporter I was regaled with stories about how Smirky McChucklenuts had transformed the country into a veritable oasis of freedom and democracy.
Yeah , Ihave to agree , but lets put the kool aid ,God, gays , guns , inbreds to the side ......... Afghanistan was a good Idea , the goals had merit , where it failed was execution of the plan , the people Bush put in Charge didnt have the first clue , on how to do this, to them they didnt see a difference in taking land , and taking land and holding it .........See Bush wanted a long term soltion to terrorism , but he didnt understand the tactics in meeting his goal ..........But you cant explain this to a cheerleader , there was a reason Bush has spent his life on the sidelines Cheering and not on the field .......

[alkemical]

I heard a good description of the regional social environment today on the news. The guy (I cant remember who) said that he spent 14 years in the region I believe and that the people over there find perfect justification in overreacting on emotion first [/B[B]](killing innocent people while whipped into a frenzy) and then looking back in retrospect on the situation with critical eyes. Like a giant dysfunctional relationship where husbands routinely kill wives in a fury and its viewed by the community as being legit because he was so angry. Now, that is backwards.

.

[LordHelmchen]

The guy converted to Christianity while he was in Germany, so the government here takes quite an interest in this. Some politicians already want to threaten to stop all aid (about 140 million euro per year) and withdraw German soldiers from Afghanistan if he will be executed. And they should. I'm really curious how this will pan out.

[Odysseus]

if we opened up some water parks would it help over there?

They have one in Kuwait. It's really kind of amusing watching chics dressed in their Ninja suits trying to enjoy themselves. They tend to huddle around with grim determination.

I agree with Spider. American people have ZERO understanding of Arabic people. They are not like us.

This guy wants to be killed. He could easily be a bad Muslim and get out of this. Nobody controls what you think not matter how it's legislated. Muslims demand obediance but not perfection. God knows your heart. He wants to be a hero.

[orangenblue2]

This individual who won't renounce his christianity in order to spare his life is just as crazy and insane as those who would kill him for his beliefs. I truly can't understand these people. Any of them...

[epicSocialism4tw]

This individual who won't renounce his christianity in order to spare his life is just as crazy and insane as those who would kill him for his beliefs. I truly can't understand these people. Any of them...

That much is obvious.

[Spider]

This individual who won't renounce his christianity in order to spare his life is just as crazy and insane as those who would kill him for his beliefs. I truly can't understand these people. Any of them...
I dont know , I wont say I know whats in the mans heart , but I wouldnt renounce my stance on anything ..........Some things are worse on a man then dying ........ Living as acoward would be on the top of my list ............

[epicSocialism4tw]

I dont know , I wont say I know whats in the mans heart , but I wouldnt renounce my stance on anything ..........Some things are worse on a man then dying ........ Living as acoward would be on the top of my list ............

If he's had much time to study and become acquainted with scripture, then he expects to be put into this type of situation. Especially in the area that he lives in. Scripture tells us that there will be times when just subscribing to Christianity will get us killed. He understands that. He's been pulled into a very dark place where this looks like the only likely outcome and he's still holding on to his faith. Its more than just avoiding cowardice, or making a political statement. There are things more important than that to Christians. We believe that we are corrupted on the inside and have a neverending source of personal disappointment, so personal pride in those type of things is useless. The most important thing is maintaining the relationship between yourself and God. Renouncing Christianity publicly would be wedging the world between yourself and God and thus becoming something else.

[Spider]

If he's had much time to study and become acquainted with scripture, then he expects to be put into this type of situation. Especially in the area that he lives in. Scripture tells us that there will be times when just subscribing to Christianity will get us killed. He understands that. He's been pulled into a very dark place where this looks like the only likely outcome and he's still holding on to his faith. Its more than just avoiding cowardice, or making a political statement. There are things more important than that to Christians. We believe that we are corrupted on the inside and have a neverending source of personal disappointment, so personal pride in those type of things is useless. The most important thing is maintaining the relationship between yourself and God. Renouncing Christianity publicly would be wedging the world between yourself and God and thus becoming something else.
cowardice is the top of my list , you have to come up with your own list ........ ;D

[orangenblue2]

I dont know , I wont say I know whats in the mans heart , but I wouldnt renounce my stance on anything ..........Some things are worse on a man then dying ........ Living as acoward would be on the top of my list ............

Here's what I'm saying. This christian man is willing to die for his belief in his supreme being. These muslim men are willing to kill this man for that belief which is contradictory to their belief. Neither the man or the men who sit in judgment of him have one iota of proof for their respective beliefs. What they have is something called "faith". Neither the accused (who is willing to die), or the accusers (who are willing to kill), are sane, normal people. This has nothing to do with being a "coward". It has everything to do with being a sane and rational human being.:peace:

[Spider]

Here's what I'm saying. This christian man is willing to die for his belief in his supreme being. These muslim men are willing to kill this man for that belief which is contradictory to their belief. Neither the man or the men who sit in judgment of him have one iota of proof for their respective beliefs. What they have is something called "faith". Neither the accused (who is willing to die), or the accusers (who are willing to kill), are sane, normal people. This has nothing to do with being a "coward". It has everything to do with being a sane and rational human being.:peace:
Much like going to Oakland with Bronco gear on .........

[orangenblue2]

Much like going to Oakland with Bronco gear on .........

Exactly...

[Spider]

Exactly...
they are so not jellin ........

[Mile High Shack]

Here's what I'm saying. This christian man is willing to die for his belief in his supreme being. These muslim men are willing to kill this man for that belief which is contradictory to their belief. Neither the man or the men who sit in judgment of him have one iota of proof for their respective beliefs. What they have is something called "faith". Neither the accused (who is willing to die), or the accusers (who are willing to kill), are sane, normal people. This has nothing to do with being a "coward". It has everything to do with being a sane and rational human being.:peace:

I'd die for my religion, so I guess I'm insane

this world is temporary, why place all your eggs in one basket

the difference is, I wouldn't kill anyone to make them believe my way (muslim way) but I'd gladly be killed if someone tried to make me renounce Christ

[orangenblue2]

I'd die for my religion, so I guess I'm insane

this world is temporary, why place all your eggs in one basket

the difference is, I wouldn't kill anyone to make them believe my way (muslim way) but I'd gladly be killed if someone tried to make me renounce Christ

Shack - Would you really "gladly be killed"? I mean, let's say that your child(ren) were watching you being executed for not renouncing christ. Let's posit that your wife would be tortured in front of your very eyes if you didn't renounce christ. Let's put aside the fact that you have no proof for your beliefs. Let's put aside the fact that what you believe and why you believe it have nothing to back it up...except for your faith. Would you really...really and truly "gladly be killed"??? I'm not hammering on you for your beliefs...I'm seriously trying to understand the depths that an individual would go to for his/her "faith". That "faith" being a belief in something that has not, will not, and can not be proven to be real...It is very interesting...:peace:

[Spider]

Shack - Would you really "gladly be killed"? I mean, let's say that your child(ren) were watching you being executed for not renouncing christ. Let's posit that your wife would be tortured in front of your very eyes if you didn't renounce christ. Let's put aside the fact that you have no proof for your beliefs. Let's put aside the fact that what you believe and why you believe it have nothing to back it up...except for your faith. Would you really...really and truly "gladly be killed"??? I'm not hammering on you for your beliefs...I'm seriously trying to understand the depths that an individual would go to for his/her "faith". That "faith" being a belief in something that has not, will not, and can not be proven to be real...It is very interesting...:peace:
a typical day for married people ;D

[loborugger]

I dont know , I wont say I know whats in the mans heart , but I wouldnt renounce my stance on anything ..........Some things are worse on a man then dying ........ Living as acoward would be on the top of my list ............


Good post, very good post. I would like to think I could stand up that straight in the face of death for something I truly believed in. I dont know that I wanna be tested.

[Spider]

Good post, very good post. I would like to think I could stand up that straight in the face of death for something I truly believed in. I dont know that I wanna be tested.
well I dont know how much Danger I was in , but here is the senario and you can judge ...........
I was 20 years old , Partying on the main Drag in Ft. Collins colorado , anyway I was talking to this girl , hitting on her , then all of the sudden this car comes screetching up and the guy had his window down shouts get away from her , I told him to **** off , he grabs agun and starts to get out of the car , I kick the car door trapping the guy knocking the wind out of him , turn and Grab a crowbar out of the back of my Pick up and then hit the guy while he was down grasping for air ....... Now the cops showed up , and there was no gun , so I was arrested , but to be honest I couldnt tell if it was a BB gun toy gun or a real one ...... But that was my test ..........

[Cito Pelon]

Well, I guess the bottom line is Mohammedans and anybody else very, very, very, very, very seldom can coexist peacefully. Mohammedans are violently intolerant of anybody not a Mohammedan. I've been reading Richard Burton's "A Secret Pilgrimage to Mecca and Medina". Very revealing of Arab Mohammedan attitudes towards infidels.

[ClevelandBronco]

Shack - Would you really "gladly be killed"? I mean, let's say that your child(ren) were watching you being executed for not renouncing christ. Let's posit that your wife would be tortured in front of your very eyes if you didn't renounce christ. Let's put aside the fact that you have no proof for your beliefs. Let's put aside the fact that what you believe and why you believe it have nothing to back it up...except for your faith. Would you really...really and truly "gladly be killed"??? I'm not hammering on you for your beliefs...I'm seriously trying to understand the depths that an individual would go to for his/her "faith". That "faith" being a belief in something that has not, will not, and can not be proven to be real...It is very interesting...:peace:

I know the question wasn't directed at me, but I know for certain that if my Christian beliefs were the reason for my execution in front of my children, I'd proudly and willingly (if not gladly — it just seems like you're hung up on that word in this circumstance) submit. I hope that I would die with Christ's name on my lips and I think my children would be able to understand why I would submit, given what they know about Jesus.

Here's the infinitely more difficult answer: Would I tolerate my wife's torture if I didn't renounce Christ? No way on earth. I'd claim to renounce my faith in a second. I'd do whatever was required to protect her, even at the cost of my soul.

But frankly, I don't think Jesus would hold that against me. What I might simply say to protect another, especially the woman that God has commanded me to protect, won't unseal the bond that Jesus has made with me.

Nothing can change what has happened inside me. Nothing.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Well, I guess the bottom line is Mohammedans and anybody else very, very, very, very, very seldom can coexist peacefully. Mohammedans are violently intolerant of anybody not a Mohammedan.

:oyvey:

Good Lord!

I've heard you make more than a few bigoted and/or uninformed/misinformed comments on this board, but these two might just establish some kind of new record.

(Just think: You could avoided sounding like Archie Bunker by using one little word, i.e., "some.")

[Odysseus]

I think Christians when they were thrown to lions for their faith were Saints because there was nowhere else in the world where they could be Christians. They were the first. What they did was courage and driven by the spirit. Many of them spread Christianity throughout the world by being "cowards."

I think Christians when they go into Muslim countries and say I am going to convert this whole country are suicidal. It is an act of faith but it's stupid. It's like thinking there are 72 virgins waiting for you if you are killed trying to kill infidels. If Colorado does not support my faith then the act of courage is to leave. Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed. Lot's wife was turned to salt. Lot left. Lot was not a coward.

God did not say eradicate other faiths from the earth. You are no better than them if that is your thinking. In some circles it was an act of courage not to kill this man for suggesting that I convert. In some circles it is an act of courage TO kill this man for challenging my religion. The smartest way to "turn the other cheek" is to not be in the situation in the first place. Courage is hidden in God's guidance not in man's. If you are spirit lead you know what I am talking about.

Christian courage sometimes is not hitting a guy with a crowbar but walking away from the nameless chic for this other guys sake. Christ's message was about peace not pride. Pride is the denominations we created in disagreement for what he said. Pride is wanting to kill all Islamic believers because they want to kill us. I doubt very many people have real Christian compassion in these times with complicated choices and increasingly smaller options.

The Asyrians, Babylonians, and Summarians were all destroyed because they became "soft". This place is a very old wound from a biblical perspective. Christianity was spread by "cowards" who did not stay in this place. Perhaps this man feels it is his place to bring Christ's message to Afganistan by allowing them to spill his blood. Who knows what spirit guides this man. Why isn't it is wiser to leave Afganistan and preach of it's failings worldwide?

Read this post again and consider my words.

[Mile High Shack]

Shack - Would you really "gladly be killed"? I mean, let's say that your child(ren) were watching you being executed for not renouncing christ. Let's posit that your wife would be tortured in front of your very eyes if you didn't renounce christ. Let's put aside the fact that you have no proof for your beliefs. Let's put aside the fact that what you believe and why you believe it have nothing to back it up...except for your faith. Would you really...really and truly "gladly be killed"??? I'm not hammering on you for your beliefs...I'm seriously trying to understand the depths that an individual would go to for his/her "faith". That "faith" being a belief in something that has not, will not, and can not be proven to be real...It is very interesting...:peace:

yep I would with my child and wife watching, what a great example for my child to see if that did happen!

this place is temporary dude

God and Christ are eternal, I'd be going to a much better place and I'd see my wife and kid again for eternity

[orangenblue2]

yep I would with my child and wife watching, what a great example for my child to see if that did happen! We have a different idea of what constitutes a "great example"...a very different idea. Your statement is shocking and disturbing to say the least.

this place is temporary dude What if you are wrong??? I happen to believe that each human being has (on average) roughly 30,000 days to spend on this planet. That's it. No heaven, hell, purgatory, etc.,nada, zip, zilch...

God and Christ are eternal, I'd be going to a much better place and I'd see my wife and kid again for eternity Alrighty then...
Back here in reality, I read your post and it scares me. I'm not joking. It scares the hell out of me that you really wouldn't mind being executed with your family watching. It frightens me that you presumably teach these things to your impressionable children. I have no doubts as to your sincerity...and that scares me the most. It is not too far a leap to connect your way of thinking with the islamic looneys who are willing to martyr themselves (as well as recruiting, indoctrinating, and arming their children) for a cause that they feel is every bit as right and just as yours. Sure, they hope to hurt others and you do not, but that's just semantics. Their god tells them that there is no greater sacrifice that can be made, they'll go to heaven and be surrounded with virgins and all their family for eternity. Sounds kinda familiar...except for the virgins...

[alkemical]

There are only a few things i would die for -

Liberty/Freedom over my individual, and those of my fellow people.

The saftey of my loved ones.

But i would not die for pride.

[orangenblue2]

I know the question wasn't directed at me, but I know for certain that if my Christian beliefs were the reason for my execution in front of my children, I'd proudly and willingly (if not gladly — it just seems like you're hung up on that word in this circumstance) submit. I hope that I would die with Christ's name on my lips and I think my children would be able to understand why I would submit, given what they know about Jesus. Or what you/your spouse/your preacher told them about jesus...filtered through your/their interpretation based on a certain denomination, sect, etc...

Here's the infinitely more difficult answer: Would I tolerate my wife's torture if I didn't renounce Christ? No way on earth. I'd claim to renounce my faith in a second. I'd do whatever was required to protect her, even at the cost of my soul. Thank you. We finally have a reasonable, rational response. It's interesting to see that you distinguish between scenario #1 and scenario #2...

But frankly, I don't think Jesus would hold that against me. What I might simply say to protect another, especially the woman that God has commanded me to protect, won't unseal the bond that Jesus has made with me. Why would jesus hold you accountable for scenario #1 and not #2??? Wouldn't jesus' bond with you be the same in both instances? Does jesus' bond only count when you try to save others and not yourself?

Nothing can change what has happened inside me. Nothing. Fascinating...

[Mile High Shack]

We have a different idea of what constitutes a "great example"...a very different idea. Your statement is shocking and disturbing to say the least.

What if you are wrong??? I happen to believe that each human being has (on average) roughly 30,000 days to spend on this planet. That's it. No heaven, hell, purgatory, etc.,nada, zip, zilch...

Alrighty then...
Back here in reality, I read your post and it scares me. I'm not joking. It scares the hell out of me that you really wouldn't mind being executed with your family watching. It frightens me that you presumably teach these things to your impressionable children. I have no doubts as to your sincerity...and that scares me the most. It is not too far a leap to connect your way of thinking with the islamic looneys who are willing to martyr themselves (as well as recruiting, indoctrinating, and arming their children) for a cause that they feel is every bit as right and just as yours. Sure, they hope to hurt others and you do not, but that's just semantics. Their god tells them that there is no greater sacrifice that can be made, they'll go to heaven and be surrounded with virgins and all their family for eternity. Sounds kinda familiar...except for the virgins...


problem is, I don't go out seeking death, I just simply said if someone put a gun to my head and said, either renounce Christ or die, I'd choose death

I wouldn't strap a bomb to myself to blow people up that didn't believe the way I did

Jesus died for me, how could I not die for him if asked?

[Spider]

There are only a few things i would die for -

Liberty/Freedom over my individual, and those of my fellow people.

The saftey of my loved ones.

But i would not die for pride.
How about Justice ?

[alkemical]

How about Justice ?


Justice is a sword, that when carried with one hand, can be used effectivly against the tyranny of mankind's evil actions against mankind. On the other hand, wielding justice with blind fury will often sever more than just your opponent, you may trip and fall upon your own sword.

[Spider]

Justice is a sword, that when carried with one hand, can be used effectivly against the tyranny of mankind's evil actions against mankind. On the other hand, wielding justice with blind fury will often sever more than just your opponent, you may trip and fall upon your own sword.
Very true ,I should have made my question more pointed and not so wide open ...... you see a violent crime go down , would you step in to help the victim ?

[orangenblue2]

problem is, I don't go out seeking death, I just simply said if someone put a gun to my head and said, either renounce Christ or die, I'd choose death We... are... from... different...worlds...

I wouldn't strap a bomb to myself to blow people up that didn't believe the way I did But you would presumably have yourself "blown up" with your spouse and children watching. That's just...wow...

Jesus died for me, how could I not die for him if asked? allah commands the martyr brigades to die for him, how could they not die if asked???

[Mile High Shack]

We... are... from... different...worlds...

But you would presumably have yourself "blown up" with your spouse and children watching. That's just...wow...

allah commands the martyr brigades to die for him, how could they not die if asked???

b/c mohammeds bones are still in the ground

[Bronx33]

New twist........

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060322/ap_on_re_as/afghan_christian_convert

KABUL, Afghanistan - An Afghan man facing a possible death penalty for converting from Islam to Christianity may be mentally unfit to stand trial, a state prosecutor said Wednesday.
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Abdul Rahman, 41, has been charged with rejecting Islam, a crime under this country's Islamic laws. His trial started last week and he confessed to becoming a Christian 16 years ago. If convicted, he could be executed.

But prosecutor Sarinwal Zamari said questions have been raised about his mental fitness.

"We think he could be mad. He is not a normal person. He doesn't talk like a normal person," he told The Associated Press.

Moayuddin Baluch, a religious adviser to President Hamid Karzai, said Rahman would undergo a psychological examination.

"Doctors must examine him," he said. "If he is mentally unfit, definitely Islam has no claim to punish him. He must be forgiven. The case must be dropped."

It was not immediately clear when he would be examined or when the trial would resume. Authorities have barred attempts by the AP to see Rahman and he is not believed to have a lawyer.

A Western diplomat in Kabul and a human rights advocate — both of whom spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the matter — said the government was desperately searching for a way to drop the case because of the reaction it has caused.

The United States, Britain and other countries that have troops in
Afghanistan have voiced concern about Rahman's fate.

The Bush administration Tuesday issued a subdued appeal to Kabul to let Rahman practice his faith in safety. German Roman Catholic Cardinal Karl Lehmann said the trial sent an "alarming signal" about freedom of worship in Afghanistan.

The case is believed to be the first of its kind in Afghanistan and highlights a struggle between religious conservatives and reformists over what shape Islam should take there four years after the ouster of the fundamentalist Taliban regime.

Afghanistan's constitution is based on Shariah law, which is interpreted by many Muslims to require that any Muslim who rejects Islam be sentenced to death. The state-sponsored Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission has called for Rahman to be punished, arguing he clearly violated Islamic law.

The case has received widespread attention in Afghanistan where many people are demanding Rahman be severely punished.

"For 30 years, we have fought religious wars in this country and there is no way we are going to allow an Afghan to insult us by becoming Christian," said Mohammed Jan, 38, who lives opposite Rahman's father, Abdul Manan, in Kabul. "This has brought so much shame."

Rahman is believed to have converted from Islam to Christianity while working as a medical aid worker for an international Christian group helping Afghan refugees in the Pakistani city of Peshawar.

He then moved to Germany for nine years before returning to Kabul in 2002, after the ouster of the hard-line Taliban regime.

Police arrested him last month after discovering him in possession of a Bible during questioning over a dispute for custody of his two daughters. Prosecutors have offered to drop the charges if Rahman converts back to Islam, but he has refused.

[alkemical]

Very true ,I should have made my question more pointed and not so wide open ...... you see a violent crime go down , would you step in to help the victim ?


Then that would not be justice, that would be aiding the victim of a crime.

The krsna's made alot of sense with their view of 'violence' - i'm not as much as a pacifist as they are (but they have a very strong level of compassion) -

but justice and revenge spider are two different things as well.

[alkemical]

New twist........

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060322/ap_on_re_as/afghan_christian_convert

KABUL, Afghanistan - An Afghan man facing a possible death penalty for converting from Islam to Christianity may be mentally unfit to stand trial, a state prosecutor said Wednesday.
ADVERTISEMENT

Abdul Rahman, 41, has been charged with rejecting Islam, a crime under this country's Islamic laws. His trial started last week and he confessed to becoming a Christian 16 years ago. If convicted, he could be executed.

But prosecutor Sarinwal Zamari said questions have been raised about his mental fitness.

"We think he could be mad. He is not a normal person. He doesn't talk like a normal person," he told The Associated Press.

Moayuddin Baluch, a religious adviser to President Hamid Karzai, said Rahman would undergo a psychological examination.

"Doctors must examine him," he said. "If he is mentally unfit, definitely Islam has no claim to punish him. He must be forgiven. The case must be dropped."

It was not immediately clear when he would be examined or when the trial would resume. Authorities have barred attempts by the AP to see Rahman and he is not believed to have a lawyer.

A Western diplomat in Kabul and a human rights advocate — both of whom spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the matter — said the government was desperately searching for a way to drop the case because of the reaction it has caused.

The United States, Britain and other countries that have troops in
Afghanistan have voiced concern about Rahman's fate.

The Bush administration Tuesday issued a subdued appeal to Kabul to let Rahman practice his faith in safety. German Roman Catholic Cardinal Karl Lehmann said the trial sent an "alarming signal" about freedom of worship in Afghanistan.

The case is believed to be the first of its kind in Afghanistan and highlights a struggle between religious conservatives and reformists over what shape Islam should take there four years after the ouster of the fundamentalist Taliban regime.

Afghanistan's constitution is based on Shariah law, which is interpreted by many Muslims to require that any Muslim who rejects Islam be sentenced to death. The state-sponsored Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission has called for Rahman to be punished, arguing he clearly violated Islamic law.

The case has received widespread attention in Afghanistan where many people are demanding Rahman be severely punished.

"For 30 years, we have fought religious wars in this country and there is no way we are going to allow an Afghan to insult us by becoming Christian," said Mohammed Jan, 38, who lives opposite Rahman's father, Abdul Manan, in Kabul. "This has brought so much shame."

Rahman is believed to have converted from Islam to Christianity while working as a medical aid worker for an international Christian group helping Afghan refugees in the Pakistani city of Peshawar.

He then moved to Germany for nine years before returning to Kabul in 2002, after the ouster of the hard-line Taliban regime.

Police arrested him last month after discovering him in possession of a Bible during questioning over a dispute for custody of his two daughters. Prosecutors have offered to drop the charges if Rahman converts back to Islam, but he has refused.



wait, they found a loophole? Welcome to america!

[Spider]

Then that would not be justice, that would be aiding the victim of a crime. sure it would be a form of Justice

The krsna's made alot of sense with their view of 'violence' - i'm not as much as a pacifist as they are (but they have a very strong level of compassion) - I dont know anything about them

but justice and revenge spider are two different things as well.
agreed ...........

[orangenblue2]

b/c mohammeds bones are still in the ground

Oh, okay...?????????

[alkemical]

sure it would be a form of Justice

I dont know anything about them


agreed ...........


Spider,

I was once attempted to be mugged, and i had to survive and i fought with extreme violence and still to this day do not know the outcome. I still feel sad for the action and recourse i had taken that day. But then i had also thought that my actions could have been the action of karma. This individual may have gotten away with his actions for some time, and then i was karma.

Just something to chew on.

[alkemical]

b/c mohammeds bones are still in the ground


what about enochs? ;p

[ClevelandBronco]

Why would jesus hold you accountable for scenario #1 and not #2???

I'm holding myself accountable.

Wouldn't jesus' bond with you be the same in both instances? Does jesus' bond only count when you try to save others and not yourself?

His bond with me is the same in all conceivable instances.

[ClevelandBronco]

Fascinating...

Sure is.

[Cito Pelon]

:oyvey:

Good Lord!

I've heard you make more than a few bigoted and/or uninformed/misinformed comments on this board, but these two might just establish some kind of new record.

(Just think: You could avoided sounding like Archie Bunker by using one little word, i.e., "some.")

Easy there, tiger. You have to face reality, and reality is Mohammedans kill infidels. Man, woman, or child. Sure, it was a blanket statement, unfair to a lot of Mohammedans. When push has come to shove, however, since Mohammed returned from the desert in 611 AD I believe it was, Mohammedanism has been "spread by the sword."

People don't like that, I don't like that. People don't like intolerant people looking to conquer tolerant people.

[Spider]

Spider,

I was once attempted to be mugged, and i had to survive and i fought with extreme violence and still to this day do not know the outcome. I still feel sad for the action and recourse i had taken that day. But then i had also thought that my actions could have been the action of karma. This individual may have gotten away with his actions for some time, and then i was karma.

Just something to chew on.
I dont know about all of that Bro , but I do know if a man squares off on me , he is putting me in a position to make a choice me or him , so in my opinion you did the right thing ..........

[Odysseus]

Easy there, tiger. You have to face reality, and reality is Mohammedans kill infidels. Man, woman, or child. Sure, it was a blanket statement, unfair to a lot of Mohammedans. When push has come to shove, however, since Mohammed returned from the desert in 611 AD I believe it was, Mohammedanism has been "spread by the sword."

People don't like that, I don't like that. People don't like intolerant people looking to conquer tolerant people.

You have used my name in vain! You infidel! Tell me your address so that I might send the killer attack midgets! Do not hide! You suffering will only be prolonged! You must submit to the will of the boobalooba! I am crushing your head! Crush! Crush! Crush!

[Spider]

You have used my name in vain! You infidel! Tell me your address so that I might send the killer attack midgets! Do not hide! You suffering will only be prolonged! You must submit to the will of the boobalooba! I am crushing your head! Crush! Crush! Crush!
Can I use those attack midgets for acouple of days ?

[Odysseus]

Can I use those attack midgets for acouple of days ?

Of course Bro! What's a few killer midgets among friends!

[Spider]

Of course Bro! What's a few killer midgets among friends!
Thanks ............;D

[Odysseus]

Spider,

I was once attempted to be mugged, and i had to survive and i fought with extreme violence and still to this day do not know the outcome. I still feel sad for the action and recourse i had taken that day. But then i had also thought that my actions could have been the action of karma. This individual may have gotten away with his actions for some time, and then i was karma.

Just something to chew on.

Poverty brings out a completely different set of rules that unless you've been there you cannot explain it. It's a different language with different customs but the more I see of the world the more I recognize the dialects.

[alkemical]

Poverty brings out a completely different set of rules that unless you've been there you cannot explain it. It's a different language with different customs but the more I see of the world the more I recognize the dialects.


I agree quiettiger - but at the same time - the rules are no different it appears when you are extremly rich either..... :)

[orangenblue2]

b/c mohammeds bones are still in the ground

Ketchup grass, aquarian bocci quasar until the volcano lobotomizes. Geez, I never realized how easy that is...

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Easy there, tiger. You have to face reality, and reality is Mohammedans kill infidels. Man, woman, or child. Sure, it was a blanket statement, unfair to a lot of Mohammedans. When push has come to shove, however, since Mohammed returned from the desert in 611 AD I believe it was, Mohammedanism has been "spread by the sword."

People don't like that, I don't like that. People don't like intolerant people looking to conquer tolerant people.

If you're going to give us this sort of a historical overview, then you're going to have to include the crusades, the Spanish inquisition, etc.

The "Mohammedans" have a long way to go to catch up with that body count.

[Bronx33]

Peaceful loving religion ehhh?

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1139395663359&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Senior Muslim clerics said Thursday that an Afghan man on trial for converting from Islam to Christianity should be killed regardless of whether a court decides to free him.

Abdul Rahman, a 41-year-old former medical aid worker, faces the death penalty for becoming a Christian under Afghanistan's Islamic laws. His trial, which began last week, has caused an international outcry. US President George W. Bush said Wednesday he was "deeply troubled" by the case and expects the country to "honor the universal principle of freedom."

Diplomats say the Afghan government is searching for a way to drop the case, and on Wednesday authorities said Rahman is suspected of being mentally ill and would undergo psychological examinations to see whether he is fit to stand trial.

But four senior clerics interviewed by The Associated Press in their mosques in Kabul said Rahman deserved to be killed for his conversion.

"He is not crazy. He went in front of the media and confessed to being a Christian," said Hamidullah, chief cleric at Haji Yacob Mosque.

"The government is scared of the international community. But the people will kill him if he is freed."

"He is not mad. The government is playing games. The people will not be fooled," said Abdul Raoulf, cleric at Herati Mosque. "This is humiliating for Islam. ... Cut off his head."

Raoulf is considered a moderate cleric in Afghanistan. He was jailed three times for criticizing the Taliban's policies before the hard-line regime was ousted by US-led forces in 2001.

[Mile High Shack]

Ketchup grass, aquarian bocci quasar until the volcano lobotomizes. Geez, I never realized how easy that is...

you missed my point

but that doesn't surprise me with your view on God

[orangenblue2]

you missed my point

but that doesn't surprise me with your view on God

You didn't offer any kind of intelligible answer to the question.

but that doesn't surprise me with your view on god...

[Mile High Shack]

You didn't offer any kind of intelligible answer to the question.

but that doesn't surprise me with your view on god...

the major difference between the religion that lets people strap themselves with bombs and blow up innocent people and the religion that does not condone that is that Christ is the center, which he died for us and was raised 3 days later

something the Mohammedins can't say

[alkemical]

the major difference between the religion that lets people strap themselves with bombs and blow up innocent people and the religion that does not condone that is that Christ is the center, which he died for us and was raised 3 days later

something the Mohammedins can't say


well krsna's story is better than christs IMO - actuall hindu's got the stories down!

[orangenblue2]

the major difference between the religion that lets people strap themselves with bombs and blow up innocent people and the religion that does not condone that is that Christ is the center, which he died for us and was raised 3 days later

That's swell. Now you still haven't answered the original question, so I'll ask it again: "allah commands the martyr brigades to die for him, how could they not die if asked???"

something the Mohammedins can't say

Do they want to say that? How do you know? How many "mohammedins" have you interviewed, or heard about, or listened to, or even read about that wanted to say that?

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Peaceful loving religion ehhh?

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1139395663359&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull


Translation:

"Maybe if I just copy and paste enough stories about Islamic fundamentalist radicals who engage in terrorism my basic premise that all Muslims are terrorists will become true."

[Bronx33]

Translation:

"Maybe if I just copy and paste enough stories about Islamic fundamentalist radicals who engage in terrorism my basic premise that all Muslims are terrorists will become true."


Your clueless about my intentions quit pretending you know ok.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Your clueless about my intentions quit pretending you know ok.

Your intentions couldn't be clearer:

Blur the distinction between Islam as a religion and radicals who engage in terrorism.

All anyone has to do to confirm this is to read your posts.

Case in point:


Peaceful loving religion ehhh?

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...cle%2FShowFull

You are clearly attacking the religion itself - not simply the fringe kooks who do bad things in the name of the religion.

[Bronx33]

Your intentions couldn't be clearer:

Blur the distinction between Islam as a religion and radicals who engage in terrorism.

All anyone has to do to confirm this is to read your posts.

Case in point:



You are clearly attacking the religion itself - not simply the fringe kooks who do bad things in the name of the religion.


Listen DUDE i have a problem with radical islamics that use ISLAM as a tool of terror and in the same breath claim it as peaceful. (Keyword is Radical) I want tthe real GOOD islamics to stand the **** up and defend their religion becuase i know the exist ok. Now if you want to continue to make up sh** do it by yourself.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Now if you want to continue to make up sh** do it by yourself.

I didn't "make sh_t up" - I quoted your exact words.

Your comment was about the religion itself - not the individuals who use the religion to justify terrorism.

[Bronx33]

"Maybe if I just copy and paste enough stories about Islamic fundamentalist radicals who engage in terrorism my basic premise that all Muslims are terrorists will become true."


Your words which you made up correct? becuase i explained in detail why you were wrong and it flew right over your head.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Your words which you made up correct? becuase i explained in detail why you were wrong and it flew right over your head.

No, I'm not wrong.

Your words quoted again:

Peaceful loving religion ehhh?

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...cle%2FShowFull

You are attacking the religion itself here - you are not making any distinction between Islam and the terrorists.

That you continue to deny something so plain for all to see is unbelievable.

[Bronx33]

No, I'm not wrong.

Your words quoted again:



You are attacking the religion itself here - you are not making any distinction between Islam and the terrorists.

That you continue to deny something so plain for all to see is unbelievable.

Your clueless...

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Your clueless...

"Your" busted.

[Bronx33]

"Your" busted.

What color is the sky in your world? you speculated about my intentions and thats all you did.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

What color is the sky in your world? you speculated about my intentions and thats all you did.

Nah - I called you on your bigoted statement.

Then you started backpedalling.