This lady

[Bronx33]

has balls! and a brain.

Video clip
http://www.memritv.org/search.asp?ACT=S9&P1=1050#

http://vitalperspective.typepad.com/vital_perspective_clarity/images/060316sultanenlightx.gif

[Crushaholic]

I can't disagree with anything she said. Islam will not be recognized as a legitimate religion around the world until they renounce the violence in the name of Islam.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Islam will not be recognized as a legitimate religion around the world until they renounce the violence in the name of Islam.

"Recognized as a legitimate religion" by whom?

By non-Muslims?

Yours is one of those arguments where the judge and the plaintiff are the same person.

BTW, by your reasoning, the same claim could be made re: Christianity.

[Crushaholic]

[QUOTE=L.A. BRONCOS FANBTW, by your reasoning, the same claim could be made re: Christianity.[/QUOTE]

I don't think so. Nowhere in the Bible does it say kill infidels, like the extremist Muslims state about the Koran.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I don't think so. Nowhere in the Bible does it say kill infidels, like the extremist Muslims state about the Koran.

But you didn't specify "extremist Muslims" in your original statement.

You said that Islam wouldn't be "recognized as a legitimate religion" until "they" renounced violence.

The implication is that all Muslims are responsible for the actions of the violent extremists and that the actions of these radicals is the metric by which the entire religion should be judged.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Nowhere in the Bible does it say kill infidels, like the extremist Muslims state about the Koran.

There are a lot of people who profess to be "Christian" who would disagree with this statement.

For instance, not too long ago, your pal errand was quoting Old Testament scripture which he claimed called for the extermination of all Muslims.

[RaiderH8r]

But you didn't specify "extremist Muslims" in your original statement.

You said that Islam wouldn't be "recognized as a legitimate religion" until "they" renounced violence.

The implication is that all Muslims are responsible for the actions of the violent extremists and that the actions of these radicals is the metric by which the entire religion should be judged.
I, surprise, disagree with your point here.

All Muslims are, to one degree or another, responsible for the actions of the jihadists by virtue of their silence. The world held the citizens of Germany responsible for standing silent while those around them were shipped off, never to be seen or heard from again.

Let's examine the Danish Cartoon Fiasco. A cartoon, in an obscure Danish newspaper prompted a tremendous outcry from Muslims because they were offended at the image and because of the image depicted. They had no problem finding a microphone to voice their discontent and disapproval.

Contrast that with the utter silence from the same community when it comes to acts of terrorism. Why? Their silence speaks of their consent for actions undertaken in the name of their religion.

I'm not asking for a lot, I'm just saying I've heard an awful lot of Islamic ass kissing in this country about the peaceful nature of Islam while nary a word is spoken in disapproval of the actions jihadists take in the name of that religion from those who practice it. Food for thought.

[bendog]

You could try google. Just because Faux and other US mainstream media don't report what goes on in Asia and other predominately muslim areas, isn't muslims fault. And, until Bushii invaded Iraq on a lie, other countries were condeming al queda routinely. Bushii has simply made defending America's actions politically very unwise in most of the world.

[enjolras]

Absolutely true Bendog. Just because we don't hear it doesn't mean there isn't a real dialog going on in the Muslim world about this.

I've attended several lectures on the subject at this point.. by Muslim scholars. They point to some very real examples of very real reaction in the Muslim world to these terrorists. Keep in mind that during the cartoon protests there where (by a very very liberal estimate) 1 million protesters. That is less than 1% of the total Muslim population.

The point being that maybe the whole isn't quite as crazy as western media (and western group-think) has made them out to be. From the people that I've met and talked to that have studied (and lived) in that part of the world the reaction is quite different. It is a conflicted society, no doubt, but it is also a society full of good people still trying to pull themselves into a world culture that has passed them by.

Blanketing the whole of Islam as evil does not solve the problem.. recognizing that there are genuinely good people in that part of the world too is the first step to engaging them as partners rather than enemies.

[DBruleU]

There are a lot of people who profess to be "Christian" who would disagree with this statement.

For instance, not too long ago, your pal errand was quoting Old Testament scripture which he claimed called for the extermination of all Muslims.

And where is that quote by errand?

More importantly, where does it say anything remotely close to that in the Bible?


Face it, you hate christians, and love muslims....kinda backwards if you want to live in the US.

[Crushaholic]

For instance, not too long ago, your pal errand was quoting Old Testament scripture which he claimed called for the extermination of all Muslims.

I haven't seen that post. I'll have to do a search for it...LOL

Yes, I should have emphasized in my original post that the extremist Muslims are the ones making the religion look bad. However, I have yet to hear mainstream Muslims condemn their brethren. That silence also makes the Muslim religion look bad.

[enjolras]

Face it, you hate christians, and love muslims....kinda backwards if you want to live in the US.

No, completely irrelevant if you want to live in the US.

And on top of that, showing support for Muslisms is far from 'loving' them. I think those of us that have quite a large problem with the Christian right have a very similiar problem with Islamic right as well. They take the Christian belief in moral sanitization to a whole new level, and that is not something most anyone supports.

What your seeing is an attempt to interject some reality into the conversation. Americans, right now, are very quick to lump the whole of Islam into thise really neat little package where all Muslims are violent, anti-west, and evil. Pointing out that this is likely far from the case is not an endorsement of their actions or beliefs in any way. Its simply a refutation of those whose rhetoric is aimed at turning a conflict with a small number of Muslims into something MUCH bigger.

[TailgateNut]

Face it, you hate christians, and love muslims....kinda backwards if you want to live in the US.


So in order to fit into YOUR U.S., one must hate Muslims and Love Christians. What happened to Freedom of Religion? The same Christians who are constantly being implicated for molestations of children. The same Christian right who feels that a war which has resulted in the deaths of tens of thousands of innocent is warranted based on a truth conjured up by their fearless leader who gets his info directly from GOD!
An OPEN MOUTH and INSERT FOOT comment as far as I'm concerned.
Now I understand why you always defend Bush. He also opens his mouth and puts no thought in what he spews!

[spdirty]

There are a lot of people who profess to be "Christian" who would disagree with this statement.

For instance, not too long ago, your pal errand was quoting Old Testament scripture which he claimed called for the extermination of all Muslims.

Who is this guy errand? He's an idiot since Muslims didn't even exist in the old testament times.

[Bronx33]

LABF do you ever have any hope about any subject? the point was that this is one of the few to speak out, hopefully it will spread ps: nice job hijacking another thread.

[Smiling Assassin27]

I can't disagree with anything she said. Islam will not be recognized as a legitimate religion around the world until they renounce the violence in the name of Islam.

Islam already IS considered a legitimate religion around the world. It's the world's fastest growing religion, which tells me there's something about it that appeals to people. IMO, it's the simplicity and tight moral reins inherent in Islam. Reason has never been a major reason why it expanded. The history of Islam shows that it was spread by the sword, not by reason.

[Bronx33]

I haven't seen that post. I'll have to do a search for it...LOL

Yes, I should have emphasized in my original post that the extremist Muslims are the ones making the religion look bad. However, I have yet to hear mainstream Muslims condemn their brethren. That silence also makes the Muslim religion look bad.


Exactly and this lady hopefully is the start of opening some eyes and get some folks into the next century because they are stuck in the 19th.

[TailgateNut]

Islam already IS considered a legitimate religion around the world. It's the world's fastest growing religion, which tells me there's something about it that appeals to people. IMO, it's the simplicity and tight moral reins inherent in Islam. Reason has never been a major reason why it expanded. The history of Islam shows that it was spread by the sword, not by reason.

Tell me, how did Christians originally SPREAD THE WORD? The problem with religions are the FANATICS who are not satisfied until others see THEIR LIGHT, and if they don't to Hell with them!

[Smiling Assassin27]

you tell me. the christians were persecuted for 300 years by Romans and Jews alike. if you suggest they 'spread the word' by the sword, please back up your point. oh, and using the crusades as your example is just plain historically incorrect. after the fall of the Jewish temple in 70 AD, Jews and Christians co-existed peacefully for 6 centuries. the crusades were a fully defensive measure used to protect Christians who were not being allowed religious freedom in their own lands. Lands that Muslim/Turks conquered militarily, not by evangelization. Those lands were unoccupied (militarily, that is) and largely Christian (by virtue of population only, not by force) since the time of Paul the Apostle.

i'll grant that renegade Christians (fanatics, as you call them) went far away from the Church's mission of restoring the ability of its people to worship without fear of persecution. these renegades were excommunicated and punished, the Pope making a FIRM declaration that this would not be tolerated. when's the last time you saw a Muslim Imam make a clear and obvious statement/condemnation to a Muslim band slaughtering Christians?

[TailgateNut]

My point! Most religions have their Nutcase Fanatics. What's that saying about Glass Houses?!

[Rohirrim]

Face it, you hate christians, and love muslims....kinda backwards if you want to live in the US.

What a maroon. LOL

[Smiling Assassin27]

It depends. If a tenet of a religion is only to kill, subjugate, or convert, then we have a problem. Holy war is not a fundamental tenet of Christianity, can you say the same about Islam? In Islam, there are two 'abodes'--the Abode of Islam and the Abode of War--can you guess what is supposed to happen in this second abode? Hint: non-Muslims are to submit, convert, or be killed.

If you're gonna argue that Christian 'fanaticism' is mainstream, then back it up. Guys like Koresh, Fred Phelps, and others' followers number in the 10's. There is no nation founded upon the principles of these Christian fanatics but there are multiple nations founded on the principles of radical Islam. You tell me which one poses a bigger threat. The numbers do not lie.

[TailgateNut]

It depends. If a tenet of a religion is only to kill, subjugate, or convert, then we have a problem. Holy war is not a fundamental tenet of Christianity, can you say the same about Islam? In Islam, there are two 'abodes'--the Abode of Islam and the Abode of War--can you guess what is supposed to happen in this second abode? Hint: non-Muslims are to submit, convert, or be killed.

If you're gonna argue that Christian 'fanaticism' is mainstream, then back it up. Guys like Koresh, Fred Phelps, and others' followers number in the 10's. There is no nation founded upon the principles of these Christian fanatics but there are multiple nations founded on the principles of radical Islam. You tell me which one poses a bigger threat. The numbers do not lie.

You forgot to mention Bush! Isn't he considered mainstream?
Right now I'm more afraid of the Religious Right as I am of the Muslims in our community! At least they are not involved in an attempt to change the freedoms we enjoy, because of their religious beliefs!

[bendog]

The only two states run by fundy islamists are Iran and now possibly Iraq. Iran elected moderates until bushii invaded Iraq. And, we made the taliban because for some reason we decided we had a dog in the soviet/aghan war, and I'm still trying to figure why we bothered.

[Smiling Assassin27]

This is hyperbole and drama. Bush is not a religious leader, nor does he claim to be. He's a politician who has a deep belief in Christianity but has not violated laws of this nation to establish a theocracy by any means. You forget that Dems and Repubs alike voted with him on the war (and other things) and over half the nation (more or less, depending on where you get your news) cast a vote for him. What you call 'freedom', others call 'license'. I don't believe that license (just because we CAN do something) is a freedom (something protected by inalienable rights given us by God). The 'religious right', as you call it, still must work within the parameters of this republic--it cannot declare some theocracy but it can do what it has the power to do--create a republic of laws that they vote for. If you want freedom protected, don't blame religious people for living their faith. Get your 'silent minority' to do its' civic duty and vote in the society they want.

[enjolras]

There is no doubt that Christians, as a whole, have evolved into a highly civilized and (for the most part) peaceful bunch. That's not to say they haven't had their bumps in the road.

I want to deal with the Crusades bit first:

oh, and using the crusades as your example is just plain historically incorrect. after the fall of the Jewish temple in 70 AD, Jews and Christians co-existed peacefully for 6 centuries. the crusades were a fully defensive measure used to protect Christians who were not being allowed religious freedom in their own lands.

This is horrible history, and scary in the way that you choose to spin Christianities darkest hour in a positive light.

The roots of the problem lie in the Justinian code (6th century) in which Christian anti-semitism was codified by the Emporer Justinian. Things like prohibiting Christians from being treated by Jewish doctors, living in Jewish houses, requiring Jews to wear special clothing (the Nazi's weren't the first), forbidding Jews from attending universities, etc...

This goes a long ways towards explaining why thousands thousands of Jews where massacred in EUROPE for refusing to convert as armies marched on the Crusades.

The crusades themselves where largely in response to large domestic problems facing Europe at that time. In this way the crusades are not a purely Christian screwup, but rather caused by corruption within the established Christian church. Leaders used Christian dogma to support a wholly secular agenda.

Moving on through history shows such high spots like the Inquisitions in which thousands of 'infidels' (Sound familiar?) where killed for refusing to convert to Christianity (with the occasional political prisoner thrown in for good measure).

You certainly can't overlook the Christian terrorists that make up the IRA. Ireland, even today, remains split (and occasionally violently so) over Protestant/Catholic divisions.


I do think Christianity has largely evolved past this type of senseless violence. Todays Christians are still very much out there attempting to regulate and persecute those with differing views, but at least they now choose a much more subtle mechanism than they have in the past.

[Smiling Assassin27]

The only two states run by fundy islamists are Iran and now possibly Iraq. Iran elected moderates until bushii invaded Iraq. And, we made the taliban because for some reason we decided we had a dog in the soviet/aghan war, and I'm still trying to figure why we bothered.

funny, in saudi arabia, christians are routinely killed for being Christian. Pakistani/islamic women are executed for getting pregnant while being raped. Christians are being kicked out of their homes by the government to provide homes for Mulims displaced by the earthquake. Indonesia allows the state to imprison people who convert to christianity and to execute those who evangelize to muslims. afghanistan had public executions of women who were educating themselves in secret. Jordan and Syria are monarchies with Muslim as the state religion. Saying only two states are run by fundy Islamists isn't exactly true. Things like this don't happen in America where a Federal religion is forbidden but States had their own state religions from the beginning.

[Bronx33]

funny, in saudi arabia, christians are routinely killed for being Christian. Pakistani/islamic women are executed for getting pregnant while being raped. Christians are being kicked out of their homes by the government to provide homes for Mulims displaced by the earthquake. Indonesia allows the state to imprison people who convert to christianity and to execute those who evangelize to muslims. afghanistan had public executions of women who were educating themselves in secret. Jordan and Syria are monarchies with Muslim as the state religion. Saying only two states are run by fundy Islamists isn't exactly true. Things like this don't happen in America where a Federal religion is forbidden but States had their own state religions from the beginning.

Radical Islam = ignorance and a refusal to see other wise and a literal interpretation of very old writings.

[bendog]

There's a difference in saying intolerance is widespread in Islamic countries and saying they're run by fundy islamists. Fundy islamists really do want to attack the west. The countries you posted are nominally allies. btw, you know Isreal also limits christian "conversion" don't you? You cannot buy property in Israel. Americans who convert to judism cannot even buy property.

[Smiling Assassin27]

<<This goes a long ways towards explaining why thousands thousands of Jews where massacred in EUROPE for refusing to convert as armies marched on the Crusades.>>

This was among the populace. Show me one papal or church declaration that Jews were part of the Crusades. THey were not. And to the contrary, Papal bulls made it clear that they were not to be touched. That rag tag bands went around massacring Jews is deplorable but those who did, and were caught, suffered at the hands of the Christian church.


<<The crusades themselves where largely in response to large domestic problems facing Europe at that time. In this way the crusades are not a purely Christian screwup, but rather caused by corruption within the established Christian church. Leaders used Christian dogma to support a wholly secular agenda.>>

You've made the charge, now back it up. Surely there should be papal declarations to this effect. I'd settle for a private letter. The Western Christian Church was approached by the Eastern Church after the Muslims had already taken Constantinople and many eastern cities, they did not take it upon themselves to start a war. Any secular agenda was Muslim, not Christian. The evidence is that Christian armies never tried to take over Muslim nations and always let Muslims in lands they had retaken retain their property rights and religion. If there were secular interests, we'd have seen campaigns deep into Muslim lands like Mecca.


<<Moving on through history shows such high spots like the Inquisitions in which thousands of 'infidels' (Sound familiar?) where killed for refusing to convert to Christianity (with the occasional political prisoner thrown in for good measure).>>

If you'd like to talk about the Inquisitions, then start a thread. It's obvious that you've bought into what modern scholars call 'The Black Legend'. All directives of the Inquisition are written down and easy to verify. I'm puzzled why you haven't bothered to check this out since the Inquisition didn't even apply to Jews or Muslims and nobody was required to convert to Christianity. If they were non baptized Christians, they were not under the Inquisitions. How many people actually died again? Check your sources because actual death counts are available and are a lot less than you've asserted here.

<<You certainly can't overlook the Christian terrorists that make up the IRA. Ireland, even today, remains split (and occasionally violently so) over Protestant/Catholic divisions.>>

The Irish troubles are a scourge. People have killed each other in the name of Christianity, definitely. But there is no law saying that Protestants must be killed for being Protestants or vice versa. The populace has taken the law into its own hands in Northern Ireland.

at any rate, the issue is not simple and Bush ain't the guy to solve it. can we agree on this? adios

[Smiling Assassin27]

Radical Islam = ignorance and a refusal to see other wise and a literal interpretation of very old writings.

the same things were going on at the inception of Islam. the age of the writings haven't had any effect on how they're interpreted to this day.

[Spider]

So let me get this right , in order to live in america , I have to hate Muslims , love Christians .......
I will hate a Muslim just the same way I hate a christian that tries to go through the express check out lane with too many items ..........
I wil hate a Muslim the same way I hate a christian that drives slow in the fast lane ........
and I will hate anyone that tells me who to love and hate ........... I will make those choices on my own ............

[bendog]

Radicalism aside, I recall reading and seeing discussed the idea that islam, with it's "rules" on how property is passed from generations and to wives actually makes commerce difficult. No doubt if the west was still trying to apply the laws of the prophets to commerce, it wouldn't be working too good.

[Bronx33]

the same things were going on at the inception of Islam. the age of the writings haven't had any effect on how they're interpreted to this day.

That's what i mean..

[TailgateNut]

So let me get this right , in order to live in america , I have to hate Muslims , love Christians .......
I will hate a Muslim just the same way I hate a christian that tries to go through the express check out lane with too many items ..........
I wil hate a Muslim the same way I hate a christian that drives slow in the fast lane ........
and I will hate anyone that tells me who to love and hate ........... I will make those choices on my own ............


Get that man a drink on me!:thumbs:

[bendog]

What I hate is the "orientals" who try to go through express with a whole cartload, and then pretend they can't understand me when I point at the "12 or less items" sign.

[Spider]

What I hate is the "orientals" who try to go through express with a whole cartload, and then pretend they can't understand me when I point at the "12 or less items" sign.
Lethal force should be an option for this situation .........

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Face it, you hate christians, and love muslims....kinda backwards if you want to live in the US.

:oyvey:

Spoken like a card-carrying member of the "Simpletons for Bush" club.

(But what's new?)

[epicSocialism4tw]

So let me get this right , in order to live in america , I have to hate Muslims , love Christians .......
I will hate a Muslim just the same way I hate a christian that tries to go through the express check out lane with too many items ..........
I wil hate a Muslim the same way I hate a christian that drives slow in the fast lane ........
and I will hate anyone that tells me who to love and hate ........... I will make those choices on my own ............

Spider, I think that you've proven enough that you are strong-willed and hard-headed without having to reiterate too much in a post here! :)

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

All Muslims are, to one degree or another, responsible for the actions of the jihadists by virtue of their silence.

Holy cow - talk about some warped logic (even by your standards.)

You're honestly trying to argue that just because person X believes in the same God person Y believes in that person X is responsible for person Y's actions?

That's about like saying anytime a man wearing Levis commits a crime, everyone in the world who wears Levis is responsible because they didn't speak up.

What ever happened to all that right-wing bluster about "personal responsibility" and "the responsibility of the individual?"

[Spider]

Spider, I think that you've proven enough that you are strong-willed and hard-headed without having to reiterate too much in a post here! :)
;D.well rest assured if you was on the street corner here in Casper preaching , and a group of drunk rowdy oil field hands tried to stop you , I would be the first in line to defend your rights ..........

[epicSocialism4tw]

;D.well rest assured if you was on the street corner here in Casper preaching , and a group of drunk rowdy oil field hands tried to stop you , I would be the first in line to defend your rights ..........

What if I had accidently got in your way in the hammer lane with a Jesus fish on the back of my truck?

Edit: You wouldnt find me on a street corner anyhow. I'd be on TBN with a gold sequined suit on praying over the mail and money of the elderly.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

LABF do you ever have any hope about any subject? the point was that this is one of the few to speak out, hopefully it will spread


You must not have been paying attention.

My response was to Crushaholic's comment - not your post.

ps: nice job hijacking another thread.

Your buddy Crushaholic was the one who hijacked the thread when he started generalizing about Islam and all its followers (although I wouldn't call it hijacking since the story you posted was bound to open this can of worms.)

[Spider]

What if I had accidently got in your way in the hammer lane with a Jesus fish on the back of my truck?

Edit: You wouldnt find me on a street corner anyhow. I'd be on TBN with a gold sequined suit on praying over the mail and money of the elderly.
I wouldnt run you over , but I would give you half a peace sign .......

[epicSocialism4tw]

I wouldnt run you over , but I would give you half a peace sign .......

Im on the road all the time...I'll see if I cant hold up one of your routes. You guys regularly pin me in...Im taking it out on you! 4 wheeler's retribution!

[Spider]

Im on the road all the time...I'll see if I cant hold up one of your routes. You guys regularly pin me in...Im taking it out on you! 4 wheeler's retribution!
i might be heading to Washington tomarrow , didnt want to leave with the wife in this condition , but the money is too good to say no to ... will begone 4 days , after that i will stay between Rawlins and casper , 4 wheelers retribution ? Ha! my fuel tanks and tires weigh more then your car .......

[epicSocialism4tw]

i might be heading to Washington tomarrow , didnt want to leave with the wife in this condition , but the money is too good to say no to ... will begone 4 days , after that i will stay between Rawlins and casper , 4 wheelers retribution ? Ha! my fuel tanks and tires weigh more then your car .......

My truck could damage your front end and maybe blow a couple of tires as you drive over it.:strong:

At the very least, I could slow the traffic in a single lane construction zone to about 5 mph. !Booya! ROFL!

[Spider]

My truck could damage your front end and maybe blow a couple of tires as you drive over it.:strong:

At the very least, I could slow the traffic in a single lane construction zone to about 5 mph. !Booya! ROFL!
Bothersome but not much .....same with a school zone ...........It takes so long to stop a rig , there is atime andplace for speed ......Never speed through town , you have to remember people in Cars dont have the first clue about driving , so as long as you understand these people are idiots , you keep your truck at a speed where you can control it , and if an accident does happen you dont kill stupid people ;D

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Radical Islam = ignorance and a refusal to see other wise and a literal interpretation of very old writings.

Altered to generate another true statement:

Christian fundamentalism = ignorance and a refusal to see other wise and a literal interpretation of very old writings.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Bothersome but not much .....same with a school zone ...........It takes so long to stop a rig , there is atime andplace for speed ......Never speed through town , you have to remember people in Cars dont have the first clue about driving , so as long as you understand these people are idiots , you keep your truck at a speed where you can control it , and if an accident does happen you dont kill stupid people ;D

I was on I20 in Weatherford, TX when the highway froze completely solid. I saw more idiot truckers in precarious situations than I did 4 wheelers (no offense) I sat with my truck stopped on the side of the highway and watched a fool trucker come flying up a banked curve under an overpass and slide perpendicular to the road into the overpass support columns, causing about a 20 car pileup on the highway. Right before that, I passed 5 jacknifed trucks including one that made its way UP a hill that was about 70 degrees steep and about 30 feet above the highway. I couldnt tell if it slid off of a service road up high, or hit the hill going fast. One fool was literally jacknifed off of an overpass and hung over the underpass in his cab. Another one jacknifed and hit a car, causing his cab to explode on impact and hang off of a bridge in Dallas.

There are plenty of poor driving truckers out there too. I spend alot of time on the roads and see alot of poor driving.

[Bronx33]

Altered to generate another true statement:

Only problem is that isn't the topic of the thread but feel free to go off on a tangent again.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Only problem is that isn't the topic of the thread but feel free to go off on a tangent again.

Hey - I figured if Spider and Angrydrama were talking about trucks then anything goes. Ha!

[RaiderH8r]

Holy cow - talk about some warped logic (even by your standards.)

You're honestly trying to argue that just because person X believes in the same God person Y believes in that person X is responsible for person Y's actions?

That's about like saying anytime a man wearing Levis commits a crime, everyone in the world who wears Levis is responsible because they didn't speak up.

What ever happened to all that right-wing bluster about "personal responsibility" and "the responsibility of the individual?"
I'm saying, by virtue of the fact that many Muslims found their way, quite quickly, to a microphone to voice dissent and disapproval about a cartoon then it stands to reason that they would be able to just as quickly find a microphone and voice their dissent and disapproval of actions taken in the name of their faith. It's pretty simple.

Your "Levis" comparison is lame, but I'll bite and address it and I'm sure it won't be to your satisfaction. People aren't commiting said crimes in the name of all those who wear levis. Presuming that their violent actions speak for the Levis wearing community as a whole. Levis criminals don't stand and say, "I take these actions in the name of all those who wear levis" for if they did, then yes, it is incumbant upon the levis wearing community to support or disavow those actions and incur the consequences of their decision. Death, taxes, and LABFs dissent are the constants in life, I would think my position is one you would be able to understand. Perhaps I was wrong.

[enjolras]

I'm saying, by virtue of the fact that many Muslims found their way, quite quickly, to a microphone to voice dissent and disapproval about a cartoon then it stands to reason that they would be able to just as quickly find a microphone and voice their dissent and disapproval of actions taken in the name of their faith. It's pretty simple.

No.. it was the Muslims who already HAD a microphone that turned the cartoon issue into the insanity it became. Those same people aren't prone to share their soapbox with anyone else. After all, they derive their wealth, power, and influence from the fact that they control a very violent group designed to suppress everyone else.

Again, less than 1% (by the MOST liberal estimate) of Muslisms participated in any kind ofo Cartoon protest. 99 out of every 100 Muslims had better things to do... I think that, by itself, says a lot.

[Spider]

I was on I20 in Weatherford, TX when the highway froze completely solid. I saw more idiot truckers in precarious situations than I did 4 wheelers (no offense) I sat with my truck stopped on the side of the highway and watched a fool trucker come flying up a banked curve under an overpass and slide perpendicular to the road into the overpass support columns, causing about a 20 car pileup on the highway. Right before that, I passed 5 jacknifed trucks including one that made its way UP a hill that was about 70 degrees steep and about 30 feet above the highway. I couldnt tell if it slid off of a service road up high, or hit the hill going fast. One fool was literally jacknifed off of an overpass and hung over the underpass in his cab. Another one jacknifed and hit a car, causing his cab to explode on impact and hang off of a bridge in Dallas.

There are plenty of poor driving truckers out there too. I spend alot of time on the roads and see alot of poor driving.
Idont know about this post , but I will say texan truckers are not known for thier skills in diverse driving conditions , as for those Jaked knife trucks , what made them Jackknife ? Chances are 4 wheelers , but Ithink there is alot more myth then fact in your post...........

[bendog]

Look at what we are dealing with here. Let's face it, while there are muslims who exist in the 21st century mentally, we're dealing with people who behave as europeans did in the dark ages. Nationbuilding isn't inherently wrong. It's necessary in Afghan. Iraq's a different story. We're earning no friends with that neocon clusterfIck

http://hotzone.yahoo.com/b/hotzone/blogs2986

[epicSocialism4tw]

Idont know about this post , but I will say texan truckers are not known for thier skills in diverse driving conditions , as for those Jaked knife trucks , what made them Jackknife ? Chances are 4 wheelers , but Ithink there is alot more myth then fact in your post...........

No, I dont think that any of it is myth. Like I said, they were driving on the same ice that I was. One of them jacknifed about 50 feet from me as it was approaching. 4 Trucks that were jacknifed together caused a detour for about a quarter mile of highway. There were more truckers in ditches than 4 wheelers for sure. It wasnt until about 11pm that they actually started pulling off of the road and bunking down. Man...you are pretty hard headed if you wont admit that truckers can be poor drivers.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I'm saying, by virtue of the fact that many Muslims found their way, quite quickly, to a microphone to voice dissent and disapproval about a cartoon then it stands to reason that they would be able to just as quickly find a microphone and voice their dissent and disapproval of actions taken in the name of their faith. It's pretty simple.

Failure to express disapproval of an action doesn't make one responsible for that action as you originally tried to claim.

By your reasoning, any Christian who doesn't speak out publicly against the bombing of abortion clinics is personally responsible for said bombings whenever they occur.

Your "Levis" comparison is lame, but I'll bite and address it and I'm sure it won't be to your satisfaction. People aren't commiting said crimes in the name of all those who wear levis. Presuming that their violent actions speak for the Levis wearing community as a whole. Levis criminals don't stand and say, "I take these actions in the name of all those who wear levis" for if they did, then yes, it is incumbant upon the levis wearing community to support or disavow those actions and incur the consequences of their decision.

Thanks for traveling the long way to make my case for me.

If some nut claims he is committing a crime in the name of everyone who wears Levis, then anyone with two brain cells to rub together recognizes him as a loon and doesn't take him seriously.

The same can be said about those nuts who commit crimes in the name of "_____________" (fill in the blank with your favorite religious tradition.)


Death, taxes, and LABFs dissent are the constants in life, I would think my position is one you would be able to understand. Perhaps I was wrong.

Don't forgot to include "RaiderH8r's invalid arguments, deflections, and spin" in that list of life's constants.

[Spider]

No, I dont think that any of it is myth. Like I said, they were driving on the same ice that I was. One of them jacknifed about 50 feet from me as it was approaching. 4 Trucks that were jacknifed together caused a detour for about a quarter mile of highway. There were more truckers in ditches than 4 wheelers for sure. It wasnt until about 11pm that they actually started pulling off of the road and bunking down. Man...you are pretty hard headed if you wont admit that truckers can be poor drivers.
Has nothing to do with being hard headed , Lets say that all those trucks Jack knifed on thier own , you have an example of 6 or 7 trucks , I can take you to any major city and show you over a thousand people in Cars doing stupid áss things ........ Realy no comparision at all

[RaiderH8r]

Failure to express disapproval of an action doesn't make one responsible for that action as you originally tried to claim.

By your reasoning, any Christian who doesn't speak out publicly against the bombing of abortion clinics is personally responsible for said bombings whenever they occur.



Thanks for traveling the long way to make my case for me.

If some nut claims he is committing a crime in the name of everyone who wears Levis, then anyone with two brain cells to rub together recognizes him as a loon and doesn't take him seriously.

The same can be said about those nuts who commit crimes in the name of "_____________" (fill in the blank with your favorite religious tradition.)



Don't forgot to include "RaiderH8r's invalid arguments, deflections, and spin" in that list of life's constants.
I never said "personally responsible" I said to some degree responsible. There's a difference. A verbal position must be taken by those who disagree with the actions undertaken in their name. Their silence implies acceptance.

Yes, Christians who do not support abortion clinic bombings have a duty to the Christian community as a whole to voice their disapproval of actions undertaken in their name and work to help curtail such violence. Yes, the same can be said about nuts who commit crimes in the name of _____________. The distinct and glaring difference is that they have, Muslims have not. And that is my point which so conveniently flew right over your head.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Has nothing to do with being hard headed , Lets say that all those trucks Jack knifed on thier own , you have an example of 6 or 7 trucks , I can take you to any major city and show you over a thousand people in Cars doing stupid áss things ........ Realy no comparision at all

Sure...there are more drivers in cars. Truck drivers can suck too. I spend alot of time on the road. I have been run onto the shoulder by unobservant truckers who somehow couldnt hear my horn for a good 10 seconds after riding next to them for miles.

Truckers also tend to throw common courtesies out the window. It's bad form to stall up the hammer lane for a few miles while passing your fellow truckers. They arent the only people on the road losing money by wasting time. Not to mention the guys who dont have proper mudflaps to keep rocks from breaking my windshield and putting damage on my truck's body and paint job. I've had 3 windshields busted in the last 4 years by truckers. Trucks also destroy roads at a faster rate. I sure hope that the govt. is taxing trucking companies for commercial road usage because I would hate to see that money come out of my pocket.

Look, I'm not bagging on you. It is nice to be able to tell a trucker about some of these problems though. 4 wheelers have just as much of a right to the highways and to get treated with respect.

[RaiderH8r]

Sure...there are more drivers in cars. Truck drivers can suck too. I spend alot of time on the road. I have been run onto the shoulder by unobservant truckers who somehow couldnt hear my horn for a good 10 seconds after riding next to them for miles.

Truckers also tend to throw common courtesies out the window. It's bad form to stall up the hammer lane for a few miles while passing your fellow truckers. They arent the only people on the road losing money by wasting time. Not to mention the guys who dont have proper mudflaps to keep rocks from breaking my windshield and putting damage on my truck's body and paint job. I've had 3 windshields busted in the last 4 years by truckers. Trucks also destroy roads at a faster rate. I sure hope that the govt. is taxing trucking companies for commercial road usage because I would hate to see that money come out of my pocket.

Look, I'm not bagging on you. It is nice to be able to tell a trucker about some of these problems though. 4 wheelers have just as much of a right to the highways and to get treated with respect.
Billy Big Riggers piss me off. On a 4 lane interstate they have NO business in the hammer lane. The Big Guy likes makin his time.

[Spider]

Sure...there are more drivers in cars. Truck drivers can suck too. I spend alot of time on the road. I have been run onto the shoulder by unobservant truckers who somehow couldnt hear my horn for a good 10 seconds after riding next to them for miles.
Chances are this was done on purpose , I have done it myself , what people in carsdont understand is , we have a tire blowout , that is some serious shít ,or leaving us hanging in the hammer lane ,can get us a ticket , not to mention if a car in front of us locks up thier brakes , you are in our only escape route ..... several can be killed by riding next to us .......

Truckers also tend to throw common courtesies out the window. It's bad form to stall up the hammer lane for a few miles while passing your fellow truckers. They arent the only people on the road losing money by wasting time. Not to mention the guys who dont have proper mudflaps to keep rocks from breaking my windshield and putting damage on my truck's body and paint job. I've had 3 windshields busted in the last 4 years by truckers. Trucks also destroy roads at a faster rate. I sure hope that the govt. is taxing trucking companies for commercial road usage because I would hate to see that money come out of my pocket.
first we pay over 12 grand a year in road use tax ,.Most broken windshields are caused from tailgating ..... as for the clogging , remember there is a time and place for speed , a congested highway isnt one of them .......

Look, I'm not bagging on you. It is nice to be able to tell a trucker about some of these problems though. 4 wheelers have just as much of a right to the highways and to get treated with respect.
Problem is you 4 wheelers dont pay what we pay to run up and down the interstate ....a simple rule for you is this , if you cant see me in my mirrors , I cant see you , truckers go through training , not so much now days cause of the modern Rigs , but training can last up to 2 years ,and still not prepared for all the hazzards on the road , take you in your pick up , someone cuts you off, you can use defensive driving skills alot faster and safer then I can , and if you do hit , both of you have ahigher chance of living, then if I hit you .....you cant stop those rigs very well , cant manuver very well , we do have an advantage on snow and ice , but like a 4x4 we cant stop any better , keep this in mind what you judge as safe distence , isnt safe for a rig , so yes sometimes we will manuver our rigs to get you guys to back off or get the hell away from us .........

[epicSocialism4tw]

Chances are this was done on purpose , I have done it myself , what people in carsdont understand is , we have a tire blowout , that is some serious shít ,or leaving us hanging in the hammer lane ,can get us a ticket , not to mention if a car in front of us locks up thier brakes , you are in our only escape route ..... several can be killed by riding next to us .......

In both cases, the guys didnt see me and just came over. They werent trying to get off of the highway, they were trying to pass slower vehicles in their lane. There was no hazard.

first we pay over 12 grand a year in road use tax ,.Most broken windshields are caused from tailgating ..... as for the clogging , remember there is a time and place for speed , a congested highway isnt one of them .......

I'm glad to hear that you guys are paying for the damage that your rigs do to the road.

To adress more of your post, I dont tailgate trucks. I'm not stupid, I know the rules of the road and I accomodate truckers as much as I can. I hold traffic to let them over and stay out of blind spots. I try not to sneak up on them and get in difficult situations. My windshields were all broken by large rocks that were lobbed from trucks several yards ahead of me. A lobbed rock would hit a mudflap and bounce under my front end if the trucker had them. They had to come out from under that wheel at a relatively large angle.


Problem is you 4 wheelers dont pay what we pay to run up and down the interstate ....

4 wheelers dont destroy the road as quickly as big rigs. That's a large reason why that tax is in place, Im sure.

but like a 4x4 we cant stop any better , keep this in mind what you judge as safe distence , isnt safe for a rig , so yes sometimes we will manuver our rigs to get you guys to back off or get the hell away from us .........

There it is...the admission I was looking for! ;D

[RaiderH8r]

Chances are this was done on purpose , I have done it myself , what people in carsdont understand is , we have a tire blowout , that is some serious shít ,or leaving us hanging in the hammer lane ,can get us a ticket , not to mention if a car in front of us locks up thier brakes , you are in our only escape route ..... several can be killed by riding next to us .......


first we pay over 12 grand a year in road use tax ,.Most broken windshields are caused from tailgating ..... as for the clogging , remember there is a time and place for speed , a congested highway isnt one of them .......


Problem is you 4 wheelers dont pay what we pay to run up and down the interstate ....a simple rule for you is this , if you cant see me in my mirrors , I cant see you , truckers go through training , not so much now days cause of the modern Rigs , but training can last up to 2 years ,and still not prepared for all the hazzards on the road , take you in your pick up , someone cuts you off, you can use defensive driving skills alot faster and safer then I can , and if you do hit , both of you have ahigher chance of living, then if I hit you .....you cant stop those rigs very well , cant manuver very well , we do have an advantage on snow and ice , but like a 4x4 we cant stop any better , keep this in mind what you judge as safe distence , isnt safe for a rig , so yes sometimes we will manuver our rigs to get you guys to back off or get the hell away from us .........
The best place to see a Billy Big Rigger is in your rear view mirror. Drop the hammer, no fvcking about, and get past them ASAP. But there are some who insist on lingering and I'll never understand that.

[TailgateNut]

Well this sure has turned into a psycho thread.

[Meck77]

Well this sure has turned into a psycho thread.
:rofl:

Well since we are now on the subject of ****ed up drivers........If you see a big ass orange bus behind you or infront of you on a highway...... Stay out of our way and we'll gladly stay out of yours. We've had several close encounters with you crazy 4 wheelers and truckers alike. We've been kind to you thus far. Next time we're launching oranges at yer ass.

Buses rule the highway! :OF1: Get out of our way!

[Bronx33]

Ummmmm anyone remember the couragious iraqi lady?

[ClevelandBronco]

Ummmmm anyone remember the couragious iraqi lady?

What does she drive?

[Spider]

In both cases, the guys didnt see me and just came over. They werent trying to get off of the highway, they were trying to pass slower vehicles in their lane. There was no hazard. um the slower moving traffic was the hazzard , I am sure they saw you , you learned a valuable lesson dont play with the Big rigs ..........



I'm glad to hear that you guys are paying for the damage that your rigs do to the road. now if we can just get you guys to understand to stay out of our way , what Turn signals are for , and the Fúcking dimmer switch , and when to use your fog lights ............

To adress more of your post, I dont tailgate trucks. I'm not stupid, I know the rules of the road and I accomodate truckers as much as I can. I hold traffic to let them over and stay out of blind spots. I try not to sneak up on them and get in difficult situations. My windshields were all broken by large rocks that were lobbed from trucks several yards ahead of me. A lobbed rock would hit a mudflap and bounce under my front end if the trucker had them. They had to come out from under that wheel at a relatively large angle.
I have to take your word on it , but the Mud flaps meet DOT standards , unless the driver has a blow out and takes out his mudflap , but there are 191 points of inspection that are done before a rig is moved .......




4 wheelers dont destroy the road as quickly as big rigs. That's a large reason why that tax is in place, Im sure.



There it is...the admission I was looking for! ;D[/QUOTE]

[Spider]

The best place to see a Billy Big Rigger is in your rear view mirror. Drop the hammer, no fvcking about, and get past them ASAP. But there are some who insist on lingering and I'll never understand that.
Ha! specialy when the Driver is wearing a black cowboy hat , Plates from Wyoming ;D

[Bronx33]

What does she drive?

She drives (Hope)

[orangenblue2]

Reason has never been a major reason why it expanded. The history of Islam shows that it was spread by the sword, not by reason.

Funny you bring that up. I quite agree with you. In fact, I'll go you one better:
"Reason has never been any reason why any religion has expanded"...:peace:

[epicSocialism4tw]

Funny you bring that up. I quite agree with you. In fact, I'll go you one better:
"Reason has never been any reason why any religion has expanded"...:peace:

You might have missed when Rome converted and spread Christianity through Europe. Or when Paul traveled all over the mediterranean having debates with philosophers.

[orangenblue2]

You might have missed when Rome converted and spread Christianity through Europe. Or when Paul traveled all over the mediterranean having debates with philosophers.

Ah, the Llama. I was wondering when you might show up. I would hardly call Emperor Constantine "converting" in AD 313 and Rome subsequently banning worship of any other gods in AD 391 (punishable by death, mind you) using "reason" to foster christianity. Then again, Rome had and continued to spread it's tentacles far and wide. Maybe that had something to do with this spread of christianity. No, no, I'm certain that these simple people accepted Paul and his arguments because of reason and not fear. Yes, it must be so because the Llama says it...

[epicSocialism4tw]

Yes, it must be so because the Llama says it...

Now you're getting it!

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I never said "personally responsible" I said to some degree responsible. There's a difference.

:rofl:

And what sort of 'difference' would that be?

Are they impersonally responsible?

How does that work?

A verbal position must be taken by those who disagree with the actions undertaken in their name. Their silence implies acceptance.

Not necessarily. Their silence might simply imply fear. Or it might be because they don't have a way to make their voices heard (Chris Matthews hasn't knocked on the door of their huts to solicit their comments.)

And, since you have now backed away from the position that all Musims are personally responsible for the actions of the radicals, you can no longer characterize those actions as "actions undertaken in their name."

Yes, Christians who do not support abortion clinic bombings have a duty to the Christian community as a whole to voice their disapproval of actions undertaken in their name and work to help curtail such violence. Yes, the same can be said about nuts who commit crimes in the name of _____________. The distinct and glaring difference is that they have, Muslims have not.

Even if it is true that these people have a duty to speak out, it doesn't follow that they are responsible for the actions of other individuals.

How easily and conveniently you forget your own right-wing creed!


And that is my point which so conveniently flew right over your head.

More like "crashed and burned before it ever got off the ground" (just like any invalid argument of its ilk.)

[DBruleU]

:oyvey:

Spoken like a card-carrying member of the "Simpletons for Bush" club.

(But what's new?)


It was probably a poor choice of words, but what I meant is that you are always quick to defend any talk about muslims killing anyone, the same muslims that would kill you and me if they had the chance, and have already killed many innocent americans, but you never defend christians.

I dont know why this board is so anti-christian, and pro-muslim, but its weird to me. We are at a war against radical muslims who want to kill us. Yet many on this board defend them like they are just trying to get along with us, and we are the ones in the wrong. I've never heard of any christians that want to kill innocent people, but this board portrays me, and other christians as if we are the enemy. ??? I shouldnt say that I dont understand why, because as christians we know we will be persecuted because of our belief in the one true God, Jesus Christ.

[Bronx33]

It was probably a poor choice of words, but what I meant is that you are always quick to defend any talk about muslims killing anyone, the same muslims that would kill you and me if they had the chance, and have already killed many innocent americans, but you never defend christians.

I dont know why this board is so anti-christian, and pro-muslim, but its weird to me. We are at a war against radical muslims who want to kill us. Yet many on this board defend them like they are just trying to get along with us, and we are the ones in the wrong. I've never heard of any christians that want to kill innocent people, but this board portrays me, and other christians as if we are the enemy. ??? I shouldnt say that I dont understand why, because as christians we know we will be persecuted because of our belief in the one true God, Jesus Christ.


Ahhh don't listen to LA he simply hates everything bush or anything remotely having to do with the guy, heck he probably hates his shampoo and his dog and swears death to that breed of dog every time hes at the petshop.The mere fact he hates bush makes him think hes better than anybody but the sad fact is he isn't and never will be. Obsession over ones political/religion affiation should not decide who you are as a person and certainly should not be held against a person but again sadly that's what LA does day in and day out.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

It was probably a poor choice of words, but what I meant is that you are always quick to defend any talk about muslims killing anyone, the same muslims that would kill you and me if they had the chance, and have already killed many innocent americans, but you never defend christians.

I dont know why this board is so anti-christian, and pro-muslim, but its weird to me. We are at a war against radical muslims who want to kill us. Yet many on this board defend them like they are just trying to get along with us, and we are the ones in the wrong. I've never heard of any christians that want to kill innocent people, but this board portrays me, and other christians as if we are the enemy. ??? I shouldnt say that I dont understand why, because as christians we know we will be persecuted because of our belief in the one true God, Jesus Christ.

:oyvey:

Either your reading comprehension is extremely poor or you're just deliberately distorting the truth here.

You don't seem to understand that there's a difference between condemning Muslims who engage in terrorism (which I will join you in doing without hesitation) and condemning Muslims in general (which is what you and your fundie friends tend to do here on a regular basis.) That is, you don't distinguish between Islamic radiacls/terrorists and Muslims in general.

As for your comments about Christianity, I can only speak for myself when I say I have nothing against it. I have nothing but reverence for Christ and His teachings. What I despise is the hateful, bigoted, intolerant, hypocritical things so many fundies, conservatives, and evangelical types say and do in the name of Christ.

Hope that clarifies matters.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Ahhh don't listen to LA he simply hates everything bush or anything remotely having to do with the guy, heck he probably hates his shampoo and his dog and swears death to that breed of dog every time hes at the petshop.The mere fact he hates bush makes him think hes better than anybody but the sad fact is he isn't and never will be. Obsession over ones political/religion affiation should not decide who you are as a person and certainly should not be held against a person but again sadly that's what LA does day in and day out.

Translation:

"I can't really address the topic of discussion or the facts, so I guess I'll just borrow a page from the Tom DeLay Playbook and accuse anyone who has my number of playing 'the politics of personal destruction.'"

People like Bronx33 like to reduce all criticism or questioning of Bush to "Bush bashing" or simple "hatred" - that way they don't have to deal with specifics or with questions of truth or falsehood.

[errand]

Who is this guy errand? He's an idiot since Muslims didn't even exist in the old testament times.

You know me not, and yet you call me an idiot on the basis of some clown like LABF claiming something I never did?

For the record, I have never said that all muslims must be killed (although I am puzzled by the majority of muslims not denouncing the extremists penchant for violence), but I am of the mindset that all radical extremists of the muslim faith should be eliminated (i.e. - terrorists)

And for what it's worth the context in which I quoted the Bible was in response to some liberal about whether or not God would advocate war... I proved that He did.

The scripture I quoted was 1 Samuel 15:17-18 :

"The Lord annoited you king over Israel. And He sent you on a mission saying, "Go, and completely destroy those wicked people, the Amalekites, make war on them until you have wiped them out"

Do yourself a favor spdirty, check out both sides of the equation when someone claims "so-n-so said this or that"....lest you look like an idiot.

[errand]

You forgot to mention Bush! Isn't he considered mainstream?
Right now I'm more afraid of the Religious Right as I am of the Muslims in our community! At least they are not involved in an attempt to change the freedoms we enjoy, because of their religious beliefs!

Yeah, like the freedom to carry nail clippers on an airplane......


Here's an experiment for you....

Live in a nation where the majority of it's citizens are Christians, and speak out against them. Then go to a predominantly muslim nation and do likewise.....oh, and please leave a forwarding address so we'll be able to send your head back home.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

And for what it's worth the context in which I quoted the Bible was in response to some liberal about whether or not God would advocate war... I proved that He did.

The scripture I quoted was 1 Samuel 15:17-18 :

"The Lord annoited you king over Israel. And He sent you on a mission saying, "Go, and completely destroy those wicked people, the Amalekites, make war on them until you have wiped them out"


There it is again - the same scripture you used in a previous discussion to justify your view that Muslims, as a people, are inherently "wicked," and that God wants you and your fellow religious nutjobs to completely wipe them out, viz., "go, and completely destroy those wicked people."

[errand]

There it is again - the same scripture you used in a previous discussion to justify your view that Muslims, as a people, are inherently "wicked," and that God wants you and your fellow religious nutjobs to completely wipe them out, viz., "go, and completely destroy those wicked people."


ummm, no Bozo. It is the same scripture that I used to show that God advocated war when need be. I have never called for the extermination of the Muslim faith....only the extermination of those who have radically hijacked it and wish to destroy our nation.....you know, the guys you defend all the time.

BTW, clown the Amalekites were not Arabs, nor were they muslim......they were a nomadic people who roamed south of Israel and were from the Edomites who were also of the Hebrews.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

ummm, no Bozo. It is the same scripture that I used to show that God advocated war when need be. I have never called for the extermination of the Muslim faith....

But Goober: The scripture you quoted says "go, and completely destroy those wicked people, the Amalekites, make war on them until you have wiped them out."

Hence, clearly, the scripture is advocating a war of extinction - not "war when need be" as you spin it.

only the extermination of those who have radically hijacked it and wish to destroy our nation..

:bs:

You consistently blur the line between terrorists and Muslims in general, e.g., by giving everyone who disagrees with your nutty, right-wing extremist takes Arab names, etc.

...you know, the guys you defend all the time.

:rofl:

Congratulations - you might just be the last bush monkey in America who is still trying to work the old "you're either with Dubya or you're with the terrorists" schtick.

Pitiful. :pity:

BTW, clown the Amalekites were not Arabs, nor were they muslim......they were a nomadic people who roamed south of Israel and were from the Edomites who were also of the Hebrews.

But you used the scripture to justify your attitude toward Muslims and as a support for the BushCo Iraq invasion/occupation, dumbass.

[errand]

You consistently blur the line between terrorists and Muslims in general, e.g., by giving everyone who disagrees with your nutty, right-wing extremist takes Arab names, etc.

No, I give Muslim names out to people like yourself who want those who have tried to murder Americans and destroy America to have the same rights as citizens.

[bendog]

I dunno that its logical to use the OT, which literally justified genocide for the purpose of building a Jewish state, to morally justify war. Any war.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

No, I give Muslim names out to people like yourself who want those who have tried to murder Americans and destroy America to have the same rights as citizens.

???

You are friggin' certifiable, bud.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

No, I give Muslim names out to people like yourself who want those who have tried to murder Americans and destroy America to have the same rights as citizens.

I think Mr. Haney has errant's number:


I've argued this on Bill O'Reilly and other Fox News shows. I ask, who would you want to pay to be a torturer? Do you want someone that the American public pays to torture? He's an employee of yours. It's worse than ridiculous. It's criminal; it's utterly criminal. This administration has been masters of diverting attention away from real issues and debating the silly. Debating what constitutes torture: Mistreatment of helpless people in your power is torture, period. And (I'm saying this as) a man who has been involved in the most pointed of our activities. I know it, and all of my mates know it. You don't do it. It's an act of cowardice. I hear apologists for torture say, "Well, they do it to us." Which is a ludicrous argument. ... The Saddam Husseins of the world are not our teachers. Christ almighty, we wrote a Constitution saying what's legal and what we believed in. Now we're going to throw it away.

- Delta Force founder Eric Haney

http://www.dailynews.com/entertainment/ci_3641046

[bendog]

maybe, just maybe, if you guys put down faux and the other media that profit from advertising P&G and Mobile, you might find what you want.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/E09D421F-5B8D-4100-A5B6-CD83ABC3D2A5.htm