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L.A. BRONCOS FAN
03-15-2006, 08:45 PM
Those of us who are at middle age or beyond have lived through a revolution in political and economic theory and practice, a revolution so profound that few of us can even begin to appreciate its significance, much less its peril.

Future historians, however, will understand and appreciate this revolution and will wonder at the passivity of the public today and the ease with which those who instituted this upheaval achieved their success. The same historians, I would venture, will be equally or more amazed at how this moment played out. But this we cannot know, for their past is our immediate future. We are the agents of that still-to-be written history. The United States of America, in this year of 2006, is at a hinge of history. Our fate, and that of our successors, rests directly in the hands of all of us who are politically alert and active today. As Edward R. Murrow famously said, "we can deny our heritage and our history, but we cannot escape responsibility for the result."

Those factions and interests now in control of the United States government declare that their policies, which they choose to call "conservative" and I prefer to call "regressive," are an advancement in the course of human history. Those who disagree, and the pollsters tell us that they are a majority of the American people, believe that in the past five years, and arguably in the past twenty-five years, the people of the United States and their government, have suffered a grievous setback.

I count myself among this dissenting majority. In my book, "Conscience of a Progressive," now nearing completion, I attempt to articulate that dissent, criticize the foundational dogmas of the regnant, "regressive" regime that now controls our country, and justify the principles of "progressivism" - the political-economic ideology that distinguished and honored our past, and if we are both determined and fortunate, may once again guide and enrich our national future.

Here, briefly, are the "players" in this political contest.

The Regressives:

To begin, it is important to note that the regressivism that controls and supports our present government is not a unified political doctrine. Rather, it is a coalition, some factions of which are in strong disagreement with others, most notably "the libertarian right" and "the religious right."

In general, most regressives tend to believe that the ideal society is merely a collection of autonomous individuals and families in voluntary association. In fact they assert that strictly speaking, as Dame Margaret Thatcher once proclaimed, "There is no such thing as a society -- there are individuals and there are families," and Ayn Rand, "There is no such entity as 'the public' ... the public is merely a number of individuals. " It follows that there is no such thing as "public goods" and "the public interest," apart from summation of private goods and interests. Moreover, there are no "victims of society." The poor choose their condition; poverty is the result of "laziness" or, as the religious right would put it, a "sin."

Each individual, by acting to maximize his or her personal self-interest, will always act "as if by an invisible hand" (Adam Smith) to promote the well-being of all others in this (so-called) "society:" that which is good for each, is good for all. Accordingly, the optimal economic system is a completely unrestricted and unregulated free market of "capitalist acts by consenting adults." (Robert Nozick) Moreover, private ownership of all land, resources, infrastructure, and even institutions, will always yield results preferable to common (i.e. government) ownership and control. Finally, the regressives firmly believe that because economic prosperity and growth are accomplished through capital investment, the well-being of all is accomplished by directing wealth into the hands of "the investing class;" i.e. the very rich, whereby that wealth will "trickle down" to the benefit of all others.

The libertarian right insists that the sole legitimate functions of government are the protection of the individual's unalienable natural rights to life, liberty and property. The libertarian's demand for individual autonomy and government non-interference entails a tolerance and respect for privacy, and thus the libertarian has no use for sodomy and drug laws, for laws prohibiting gay marriage, abortion, voluntary euthanasia, and least of all for government endorsement of religious dogma or enforcement of religious practice. Thus the libertarian fully endorses John Stuart Mill's pronouncement that, "over himself, over his own body and mind, the individual is sovereign." In general, the libertarian advocates the fullest possible freedom of the individual, consistent with equivalent liberty of all others. In these respects, there is much of libertarian thought that should be attractive to the progressive.

The religious right, of course, vehemently rejects the libertarian's uncompromising tolerance and insistence that the government has no right whatever to interfere in the private life of the individual. The religious right, to the contrary, believes that the government is entitled to enforce moral behavior and even to support religious institutions and "establish" religious doctrines in the law. In the most extreme cases, the religious right advocates the establishment of "biblical law" in place of our present system of secular Constitutional law.

With the exception of the dispute between the libertarians and the religious right regarding private behavior, all the other tenets of regressivism share this characteristic: They all lead to policies that benefit wealth and power ("the masters"), to the disadvantage of all others; i.e., the "ordinary citizens.

The Progressives:

"Progressivism" is essentially the "liberalism" of most of the twentieth century, as promulgated by both Roosevelts, by the Kennedy Brothers, and by many Republicans, such as Dwight Eisenhower, Jacob Javits and Earl Warren. "Progressivism," to put it simply, is "liberalism," free of the slanderous connotations heaped upon it by contemporary right-wing propagandists.

In general, progressives endorse the political principles of our founding documents, the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, as well as the fundamental moral precepts of the great world religions and the ideas of many secular moral philosophers - precepts most familiar to the American public through the moral teachings of Jesus of Nazareth.

Accordingly, progressivism is founded on enduring "conservative" principles. Thus the familiar "liberal vs. conservative" dichotomy is a hoax. Moreover, the Right, far from being "conservative," in fact endorses a radical political doctrine, with policies designed to return society and the economy to a condition of autocracy, wealth and power for the privileged few, and servitude, poverty and ignorance for "the masses" - a condition which, until recently, was generally believed to be permanently discredited and relegated to the distant past. Hence my preferred term, "regressive."

In contrast to the regressive, the progressive regards society not as an aggregate of autonomous individuals but as an "emergent" entity that is more than the sum of its individual human components. In this sense, a society is like a chemical compound such as table salt or water: substances with properties that are separate and distinct from the properties of their component elements. It then follows that there are "social goods" and "public interests" that are demonstrably separate from the sum of private goods and interests. Moreover, there are genuine "victims of society" who are in no way responsible for their suffering and poverty. (The illegitimate child of a teen-age heroin addict did not choose her parents. The decision to "outsource" a job was out of the hands of the worker who loses that job).

Because society (or "the public") is demonstrably distinct from the sum of its component individuals, behavior that might be good for each individual, may be bad for society as a whole; and conversely, what is "bad" for the individual (e.g., taxes and regulations) may benefit society at large. These fundamental precepts: "good for each, bad for all" and "bad for each, good for all" are of essential importance to the defense of progressivism, and by implication to the refutation of regressivism.

The progressive is not "against" free markets, but rather believes that in the organization and functioning of society and its economy, markets are invaluable servants. But markets can also be cruel masters. Thus, in the formulation of public policy, markets should count for something and even for much, but not for everything. There is a "wisdom" of the marketplace, but that "wisdom" is not omniscient. Adam Smith was right: each individual seeking his own gain might act, "as if by an invisible hand," to the benefit of all. But as Adam Smith also observed and regressive economists tend to forget, there is a "back of the invisible hand," whereby self-serving action by each individual can bring ruin upon the whole - a warning that was vividly presented by Garrett Hardin in his landmark essay, "The Tragedy of the Commons." (1968)

The progressives are so much in favor of a market economy that they are determined to protect it from its excesses and from its inborn tendency toward self-destruction. The progressive recognizes that the natural tendency of "free markets" is toward monopoly and cartels, which are, of course, the end of the free market. Thus the progressive endorses anti-trust laws, which means, of course, a rule of law enforced by government.

The progressive also recognizes that market transactions, especially those by large corporations, affect not only the parties of those transactions (the buyers and sellers), but also unconsenting third parties, the "stakeholders;" for example, citizens who reside downwind of and downstream from polluting industries, citizens who are enticed by false advertising to endanger their health, and parents whose childrens' minds and morals are corrupted by mass media. "Stakeholders" should thus have a voice in these corporate transactions, and the only agency with a legitimate right to represent the stakeholders is their government; hence the justification for regulation of corporations.

The progressive agrees that economic benefits "trickle down" from the investments of the wealthy. But he also insists that the wealth of the privileged few "percolates up" from knowledge and labor of the producers of that wealth - the workforce - and from the tranquility and social order that issues from a public that is served well by, and freely consents to the rule of, its government. The progressive insists that the workers are most productive and prosperous when they participate, through collective bargaining, in determining the conditions of their employment. The progressive also recognizes that the productivity of that workforce results from public education and from the publicly funded basic research that might otherwise be neglected by private entrepreneurs.

In addition to the libertarian's defense of government's function of protecting the rights of "life, liberty and property," the progressive believes that it is also the function of government "to establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, ... [and] promote the general Welfare." Critics of The Right, who choose to call themselves "conservatives," should note that these words are quoted directly from the Preamble to the Constitution of the United States.

Also, along with the libertarians, the progressive endorses the "like liberty principle" which affirms that each individual is entitled to maximum liberty, consistent with equal liberty for all. Likewise, the "no-harm principle," expressed in the familiar folk maxim, "my freedom ends where your nose begins." However, the libertarians fail to come to terms with the full implications of these principles, for their program results in freedom for the privileged few at the cost of the freedom and welfare of the many. To put the matter bluntly, the progressive disagrees with the libertarian, not because the progressive values liberty less, but because he values liberty more.

The progressive insists that certain institutions and resources are the legitimate property, not of private individuals, but of the public at large. These include, first of all, the government itself: the legislature, the executive, and the courts. In addition, the natural environment - the atmosphere, the waterways, the oceans, the aquifers, wildlife - can not be parceled out, marked by property lines, and sold to the highest bidder. Language, the arts, literature, the sciences, are common heritages which must be protected and nurtured for the common good, and not be used and exploited exclusively for private gain.

Finally, the progressive demands that government belongs to the people, and not exclusively to those interests that can afford to "buy into" access to and influence upon the government. "Governments," the progressive reminds us, "are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed," and that "whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government." And if the (self-described) "conservatives" find such sentiments to be treasonous, they should again take note of the source. These words are from the founding document of our republic: The Declaration of Independence.

Accordingly, far from being "traitors," as Ann Coulter would have us believe, progressives are among the most authentic of patriots.

http://crisispapers.org/essays6p/nutshell.htm

Spider
03-15-2006, 09:00 PM
Pretty much how I see it .........he nailed the conservititves part , a neo con is not a traditional conservititve , but it is a radical religious wing , that has found a home in the republican party , where it has grown into the enity that is destroying our america today ..........now I dont think everything will be rosey under Democrats , but I wouldnt worry about the destructing of the constitution , and the bill of rights ...All you need to do is look here on this board , we have those that dont give a damn about this country , couldnt care less about our principals , our laws or our way of life , all that matter to these unAmerican dipshíts is thier party won ...........
Take outsourcing and buying American made products I was preaching , I was called a nut , told I didnt understand how things work , an Idiot , andstill to this day not 1 person has shown me how outsourcing helps America , but then most didnt understand the difference in economic expansion and outsourcing .........
I am just glad that alot of americans are waking up and seeing what they did to this country , they wanted to give up freedoms in the name of security ......you still have the guys that will blow Bush untill the bitter end , but they are few and far between ...........

Spider
03-15-2006, 09:14 PM
But to reach guys like DBruleU the guy needed to write this ....................

Them of us who is at middle age o' beyond haf lived through a revolushun in political an' economic theo'y an' prackice, a revolushun so profoun' thet few of us kin even begin t'appreesheeate its significance, much less its peril, ah reckon. Future histo'ians, howevah, will unnerstan' an' appreesheeate this hyar revolushun an' will wonner at th' passivity of th' public today an' th' ease wif which them who insteetooted this hyar upheaval achieved their success. Th' same histo'ians, ah w'd venture, will be equally o' mo'e amazed at how this hyar moment played out. But this hyar we kinnot know, fo' their past is our eemeejut future. We is th' ajunts of thet still-to-be writ histo'y. Th' United States of South Car'lina, in this hyar year of 2006, is at a hingi of histo'y. Our fate, an' thet of our successo's, rests direckly in th' han's of all of us who is politically alert an' ackive today. As Edward R. Murrow famously said, "we kin deny our heritage an' our histo'y, but we kinnot excape responsibility fo' th' result." Them fackshuns an' interests now in corntrol of th' United States govment declare thet their policies, which they choose t'call "conservative" an' ah prefer t'call "regressive," is an advancement in th' course of hoomin histo'y. Them who disagree, an' th' pollsters tell us thet they is a majo'ity of th' South Car'linan varmints, believe thet in th' past five years, an' arguably in th' past twenty-five years, th' varmints of th' United States an' their govment, haf suffered a grievous setback. Shet mah mouth! ah count mahse'f among this hyar dissentin' majo'ity. In mah book, "Conscience of a Progressive," now nearin' compleshun, ah attempp t'articulate thet dissent, criticize th' foun'ashunal houn'dogmas of th' regnant, "regressive" regime thet now corntrols our country, an' jestify th' principles of "progressivism" - th' political-economic ideology thet distin'uished an' hono'ed our past, an' eff'n we is both determined an' fo'tunate, may once agin guide an' inrich our nashunal future. Here, briefly, is th' "players" in this hyar political corntest. Th' Regressives: To begin, it is impo'tant t'note thet th' regressivism thet corntrols an' suppo'ts our present govment is not a unified political dockrine. Rather, it is a coalishun, some fackshuns of which is in strong disagreement wif others, most notably "th' libertarian right" an' "th' religious right." In juneral, most regressives tend t'believe thet th' ideal society is merely a colleckshun of autynomous indivijools an' families in voluntary associashun. In fack they assert thet strickly speakin', as Dame Daisy Thetcher once proclaimed, "Thar is no sech thin' as a society -- thar is indivijools an' thar is families," an' Ayn Ran', "Thar is no sech intity as 'th' public' ... th' public is merely a number of indivijools. " It follers thet thar is no sech thin' as "public fines" an' "th' public interest," apart fum summashun of private fines an' interests. Mo'eovah, thar is no "vickims of society." Th' pore choose their corndishun; povahty is th' result of "laziness" o', as th' religious right'd put it, a "sin, as enny fool kin plainly see." Etch indivijool, by ackin' t'maximize his o' her varmintal se'f-interest, will allus ack "as eff'n by an invisible han'" (Adam Smif) t'promote th' fine-bein' of all others in this hyar (so-called) "society:" thet which is fine fo' etch, is fine fo' all, ah reckon. Acco'din'ly, th' oppimal economic system is a completely unrestricked an' unregulated free market of "capitalist acks by cornsentin' adults." (Billy Bob Nozick) Mo'eovah, private ownyship of all lan', resources, infrastruckure, an' even insteetooshuns, will allus yield results preferable t'common (i.e. govment) ownyship an' corntrol, ah reckon. Finally, th' regressives firmly believe thet on account o' economic prosperity an' growth is accomplished through capital investment, th' fine-bein' of all is accomplished by direckin' wealth into th' han's of "th' investin' class;" i.e. th' mighty rich, wharby thet wealth will "trickle down" t'th' benefit of all others. Th' libertarian right insists thet th' sole legitimate funckshuns of govment is th' proteckshun of th' indivijool's unalienable natural rights t'life, liberty an' propuhty. Th' libertarian's deman' fo' indivijool autynomah an' govment non-interference intails a tolerance an' respeck fo' privacy, an' thus th' libertarian has no use fo' sodomah an' drug laws, fo' laws prohibitin' gay marriage, abo'shun, voluntary euthanasia, an' least of all fo' govment indo'sement of religious houn'dogma o' info'cement of religious prackice. Thus th' libertarian fully indo'ses John-Boy Stuart Mill's pronouncement thet, "ovah hisse'f, on over his own hide an' mind, th' indivijool is sovaheign, as enny fool kin plainly see." In juneral, th' libertarian advocates th' fulless postible freedom of th' indivijool, cornsissent wif equivalent liberty of all others. In these respecks, thar is much of libertarian thunk thet sh'd be attrackive t'th' progressive. Th' religious right, of course, vehemently rejecks th' libertarian's uncompromisin' tolerance an' insissence thet th' govment has no right whutevah t'interfere in th' private life of th' indivijool. Th' religious right, t'th' contrary, believes thet th' govment is intitled t'enfo'ce mo'al behavio' an' even t'suppo't religious insteetooshuns an' "establish" religious dockrines in th' law. In the dawgoned-est extreme cases, th' religious right advocates th' establishment of "biblical law" in place of our present system of secular Consteetooshunal law. Wif th' 'ception of th' dispute between th' libertarians an' th' religious right regardin' private behavio', all t'other tenets of regressivism share this hyar chareeckeristic: They all lead t'policies thet benefit wealth an' power ("th' masters"), t'th' disadvantage of all others; i.e., th' "o'dinary citizens. Th' Progressives: "Progressivism" is essentially th' "liberalism" of most of th' twentieth century, as promulgated by both Roosevelts, by th' Kennedy Brothers, an' by menny Republicans, sech as Dwight Eisenhower, Jacob Javits an' Earl Warren, as enny fool kin plainly see. "Progressivism," t'put it simply, is "liberalism," free of th' slan'erous cornnotashuns heaped upon it by corntempo'ary right-win' propagan'ists. In juneral, progressives indo'se th' political principles of our foun'in' docoomnts, th' Declareeshun of Independence an' th' Consteetooshun, as fine as th' fundamental mo'al precepps of th' great wo'ld religions an' th' ideas of menny secular mo'al philosophers - precepps most familiar t'th' South Car'linan public through th' mo'al larnin's of Jesus of Nazareth. Acco'din'ly, progressivism is foun'ed on indurin' "conservative" principles. Thus th' familiar "liberal vs. cornservative" dichotomah is a hoax. Mo'eovah, th' Right, far fum bein' "conservative," in fack indo'ses a radical political dockrine, wif policies designed t'return society an' th' economah t'a corndishun of autycracy, wealth an' power fo' th' privileged few, an' servitude, povahty an' igno'ance fo' "th' masses" - a corndishun which, until recently, was junerally believed t'be permanently discredited an' relegated t'th' distant past. Hence mah preferred term, "regressive." In corntrast t'th' regressive, th' progressive regards society not as an aggregate of autynomous indivijools but as an "emerjunt" intity thet is mo'e than th' sum of its indivijool hoomin components. In this hyar sense, a society is like a chemical compoun' sech as table salt o' water: substances wif rightties thet is separeete an' distinck fum th' rightties of their component elements. It then follers thet thar is "social fines" an' "public interests" thet is demonstrably separeete fum th' sum of private fines an' interests. Mo'eovah, thar is junuine "vickims of society" who is in no way responsible fo' their sufferin' an' povahty. (Th' illegitimate chile of a teen-age heroin addick did not choose her parents. Th' decishun t'"outsource" a job was outta th' han's of th' wawker who loses thet job). On account o' society (o' "th' public") is demonstrably distinck fum th' sum of its component indivijools, behavio' thet might be fine fo' etch indivijool, may be bad fo' society as a whole; an' cornvahsely, whut is "bad" fo' th' indivijool (e.g, acco'din' t' th' code o' th' heells!, taxes an' regulashuns) may benefit society at large. These fundamental precepps: "fine fo' etch, bad fo' all" an' "bad fo' etch, fine fo' all" is of essential impo'tance t'th' defense of progressivism, an' by implicashun t'th' refutashun of regressivism, dawgone it. Th' progressive is not "aginst" free markets, but rather believes thet in th' o'ganizashun an' funckshunin' of society an' its economah, markets is invaluable servants. But markets kin also be cruel masters. Thus, in th' fo'mulashun of public policy, markets sh'd count fo' sumpin an' even fo' much, but not fo' ev'rythin'. Thar is a "wisdom" of th' marketplace, but thet "wisdom" is not omniscient. Adam Smif was right: etch indivijool seekin' his own gain might ack, "as eff'n by an invisible han'," t'th' benefit of all, ah reckon. But as Adam Smif also obsarved an' regressive economists tend t'fo'git, thar is a "back of th' invisible han'," wharby se'f-servin' ackshun by etch indivijool kin brin' ruin upon th' whole - a warnin' thet was vividly presented by Garrett Hardin in his lan'mark essay, "Th' Tragedy of th' Commons." (1968) Th' progressives is so much in favo' of a market economah thet they is determined t'proteck it fum its excesses an' fum its inborn an' raised tendency toward se'f-destruckshun. Th' progressive reckanizes thet th' natural tendency of "free markets" is toward monopoly an' cartels, which are, of course, th' end of th' free market. Thus th' progressive indo'ses anti-trest laws, which means, of course, a rule of law info'ced by govment. Th' progressive also reckanizes thet market transackshuns, especially them by large co'po'ashuns, affeck not only th' parties of them transackshuns (th' buyers an' sellers), but also unconsentin' third parties, th' "stakeholders;" fo' example, citizens who reside downwind of an' downstream fum pollutin' indestries, citizens who is enticed by false advahtisin' t'endanger their health, an' parents whose chilluns' minds an' mo'als is co'rupped by mass media. "Stakeholders" sh'd thus haf a voice in these co'po'ate transackshuns, an' th' only ajuncy wif a legitimate right t'represent th' stakeholders is their govment; hence th' jestificashun fo' regulashun of co'po'ashuns. Th' progressive agrees thet economic benefits "trickle down" fum th' investments of th' wealthy. But he also insists thet th' wealth of th' privileged few "percolates up" fum smarts an' labo' of th' prodoocers of thet wealth - th' wawkfo'ce - an' fum th' tranquility an' social o'der thet issues fum a public thet is sarved fine by, an' freely cornsents t'th' rule of, its govment. Th' progressive insists thet th' wawkers is most produckive an' prosperous when they participate, through colleckive bargainin', in determinin' th' condishuns of their employment. Th' progressive also reckanizes thet th' produckivity of thet wawkfo'ce results fum public ejoocayshun an' fum th' publicly funded basic research thet might otherwise be neglecked by private intrepreneurs. In addishun t'th' libertarian's defense of govment's funckshun of proteckin' th' rights of "life, liberty an' propuhty," th' progressive believes thet it is also th' funckshun of govment "to establish Jestice, insure domestic Tranquility, ... [an'] promote th' juneral We'fare." Critics of Th' Right, who choose t'call themselves "conservatives," sh'd note thet these wo'ds is quoted direckly fum th' Preamble t'th' Consteetooshun of th' United States. Also, along wif th' libertarians, th' progressive indo'ses th' "like liberty principle" which affirms thet etch indivijool is intitled t'maximum liberty, cornsissent wif equal liberty fo' all, ah reckon. Likewise, th' "no-harm principle," expressed in th' familiar folk maxim, "mah freedom inds whar yer nose begins." Howevah, th' libertarians fail t'come t'terms wif th' full implicashuns of these principles, fo' their program results in freedom fo' th' privileged few at th' cost of th' freedom an' we'fare of th' menny. To put th' matter bluntly, th' progressive disagrees wif th' libertarian, not on account o' th' progressive values liberty less, but on account o' he values liberty mo'e. Th' progressive insists thet sartin insteetooshuns an' resources is th' legitimate propuhty, not of private indivijools, but of th' public at large. These include, fust of all, th' govment itse'f: th' legislature, th' executive, an' th' courts. In addishun, th' natural invironment - th' atmosphar, th' waterways, th' oceans, th' aquifers, wildlife - kin not be parceled out, marked by propuhty lines, an' sold t'th' highess bidder. Language, th' arts, literature, th' sciences, is common heritages which muss be protecked an' nurtured fo' th' common fine, an' not be used an' sploited exclusively fo' private gain, as enny fool kin plainly see. Finally, th' progressive deman's thet govment belongs t'th' varmints, an' not exclusively t'them interests thet kin affo'd t'"buy into" access t'an' influence upon th' govment. "Govments," th' progressive reminds us, "are insteetooted among Men, derivin' their jest powers fum th' consent of th' govahned," an' thet "whenevah enny Fo'm of Govment becomes destruckive of these inds, it is th' Right of th' Varmints t'alter o' t'abolish it, an' t'insteetoote noo Govment." An' eff'n th' (se'f-dexcribed) "conservatives" find sech sentiments t'be treasonous, they sh'd agin take note of th' source. These wo'ds is fum th' foun'in' docoomnt of our republic: Th' Declareeshun of Independence. Acco'din'ly, far fum bein' "traito's," as Ann Coulter'd haf us believe, progressives is among the dawgoned-est authentic of patriots.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
03-15-2006, 09:25 PM
Pretty much how I see it .........he nailed the conservititves part , a neo con is not a traditional conservititve , but it is a radical religious wing , that has found a home in the republican party , where it has grown into the enity that is destroying our america today ..........now I dont think everything will be rosey under Democrats , but I wouldnt worry about the destructing of the constitution , and the bill of rights

Yeah, the Dems have, in no small measure, abondoned their own values and principles in their efforts to "go along, get along" in today's pay-to-play system. Until this turns around, they don't deserve our trust either.

...All you need to do is look here on this board , we have those that dont give a damn about this country , couldnt care less about our principals , our laws or our way of life , all that matter to these unAmerican dipshíts is thier party won .........

Yep. The simpletons you're describing approach politics like a sport. All that matters is that their "team" wins. Questions re: competence, ethics, integrity, job performance, and/or the good of the country never factor into their equation.

......... I am just glad that alot of americans are waking up and seeing what they did to this country , they wanted to give up freedoms in the name of security ......you still have the guys that will blow Bush untill the bitter end , but they are few and far between ...........

+1 :thumbs:

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
03-15-2006, 09:27 PM
But to reach guys like DBruleU the guy needed to write this ....................

Them of us who is at middle age o' beyond haf lived through a revolushun in political an' economic theo'y an' prackice, a revolushun so profoun' thet few of .....

Hilarious!

Is there a name for that particular dialect?

Spider
03-15-2006, 09:38 PM
Hilarious!

Is there a name for that particular dialect?
Redneck http://rinkworks.com/dialect/
about the Dems leaving thier ideas , damn right on that Bro , we need to get back to the party of FDR , a party with balls , hell walk through a Union hall once , you will see some kick áss mo fo workin ....... we need the democratic party that realy represents us and our Ideas .........

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
03-15-2006, 09:45 PM
...we need to get back to the party of FDR , a party with balls , hell walk through a Union hall once , you will see some kick áss mo fo workin ....... we need the democratic party that realy represents us and our Ideas .........

+100 :thumbs:

(AFM Local 47)

Rascal
03-15-2006, 09:49 PM
I think it was Greenspan who said recently that he thinks a third party representing THE MIDDLE would soon rise and win the white house.

Fact is both Republicans and Democrats have gone so far to their extremes they have forgotten the average American who is in the middle.

Spider
03-15-2006, 09:51 PM
I think it was Greenspan who said recently that he thinks a third party representing THE MIDDLE would soon rise and win the white house.

Fact is both Republicans and Democrats have gone so far to their extremes they have forgotten the average American who is in the middle.I would be interested in looking at a 3 rd party .........

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
03-15-2006, 10:03 PM
I think it was Greenspan who said recently that he thinks a third party representing THE MIDDLE would soon rise and win the white house.

Fact is both Republicans and Democrats have gone so far to their extremes they have forgotten the average American who is in the middle.

If such a third party could field a good candidate and somehow put up the "pay to play" money, the next election would be that party's to lose.

Rascal
03-15-2006, 10:05 PM
If such a third party could field a good candidate and somehow put up the "pay to play" money, the next election would be that party's to lose.

It would have to be somebody with a lot of money and contacts with people who have a lot of money.

Assuming they are in fact in the middle they would get my vote.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
03-15-2006, 10:07 PM
Fact is both Republicans and Democrats have gone so far to their extremes they have forgotten the average American who is in the middle.

The Democratic party hasn't gone to any extreme - it has simply sold out, i.e., abandoned its core values in favor of a 'go-along, get along' strategy.

The current administration has pushed the GOP to the extreme right on some issues, and to what is usually considered to be the extreme left on others (e.g., fiscal recklessness.)

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
03-15-2006, 10:11 PM
It would have to be somebody with a lot of money and contacts with people who have a lot of money.


The question being "will people with lots of money put their money behind a candidate who runs on an essentially populist platform?"

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
03-15-2006, 10:18 PM
One of the reasons I admired Clinton (in spite of his personal flaws) was because he was a self-made man who came from poverty and a broken home and busted his ass to get to the top on his own merits. When he said "I feel your pain," it wasn't just hollow rhetoric: he understood the plight of the average man. And his economic policies backed that up.

I'd be happy if we could find someone like Clinton (without the baggage) again.

Cito Pelon
03-15-2006, 10:21 PM
It's kind of an ugly situation right now with Dems and Repubs. Repubs drumming up hysteria every where they can, Dems stuck in the mud because there is no way to combat hysteria. It has to run its course. But the Repubs keep finding ways to ratchet the hysterics up a notch.

Maybe people are starting to get a grip on reality. It's amazing to me how many people actually believe every single problem in the USA can be laid on Liberals and environmentalists. Republicans have been in the White House for 5 of 7 terms since 1980, 7 of 10 terms since 1968, but according to conservatives or Republicans, whatever, any problem available is because of Liberals and environmentalists. Amazing.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
03-15-2006, 10:27 PM
Maybe people are starting to get a grip on reality.

I think you're right on that account.

Probably because people can only stand hysteria and living in fear for so long.

Smiling Assassin27
03-16-2006, 12:43 PM
The hysteria-mongers are on both sides of the aisle. Look no further than the Supreme Court Senate hearings or Senator Durbin's idiotic remarks about Pol Pot and our Stalinist soldiers. Both sides use hyperbole and blatant exaggeration to make their mundane and esoteric positions seem plausible. Myself, i'd just like to be able to vote on some of these issues. Whether you're for gay marriage or for banning abortions, it'd sure be nice to have a legitimate say by voting since it's pretty clear that neither party can be trusted to do anything more than pander to self interests.

Spider
03-16-2006, 02:09 PM
The hysteria-mongers are on both sides of the aisle. Look no further than the Supreme Court Senate hearings or Senator Durbin's idiotic remarks about Pol Pot and our Stalinist soldiers. Both sides use hyperbole and blatant exaggeration to make their mundane and esoteric positions seem plausible. Myself, i'd just like to be able to vote on some of these issues. Whether you're for gay marriage or for banning abortions, it'd sure be nice to have a legitimate say by voting since it's pretty clear that neither party can be trusted to do anything more than pander to self interests.
after this post , I guess you wouldnt mind someone taking parts of the bible out of context to prove a point ............

Spider
03-16-2006, 02:11 PM
Just for the record , here iswhat Durbin said ......... I know the truth doesnt matter , but here it is ..........."If I read this to you and did not tell you that it was an FBI agent describing what Americans had done to prisoners in their control, you would most certainly believe this must have been done by Nazis, Soviets in their gulags, or some mad regime -- Pol Pot or others -- that had no concern for human beings," Durbin said. "Sadly, that is not the case. This was the action of Americans in the treatment of their prisoners."

Smiling Assassin27
03-16-2006, 03:19 PM
after this post , I guess you wouldnt mind someone taking parts of the bible out of context to prove a point ............

both sides of the aisle do that too.

Smiling Assassin27
03-16-2006, 03:26 PM
Just for the record , here iswhat Durbin said ......... I know the truth doesnt matter , but here it is ...........

once again, you miss the point entirely. the point was that guys like durbin, trent lott, ted kennedy, mitch mcconnell, and other fools use these comparisons without regard for whether they fit or not. His comparison did not but it didn't stop him from playing to emotion and theatrics did it? THAT, spider, is the point. the climate in politics has reached a point where these guys would rather toss out a quote chock full of emotion and sensationalism than address the issue in a real and frank way.

Spider
03-16-2006, 05:33 PM
once again, you miss the point entirely. the point was that guys like durbin, trent lott, ted kennedy, mitch mcconnell, and other fools use these comparisons without regard for whether they fit or not. His comparison did not but it didn't stop him from playing to emotion and theatrics did it? THAT, spider, is the point. the climate in politics has reached a point where these guys would rather toss out a quote chock full of emotion and sensationalism than address the issue in a real and frank way.
did it fit ? I dont know , but I do know this , I hate it when our POWS get abused , I want our Boys treated with respect that is due to a soldier , I know these terrorist are not soldiers , but we shouldnt engage in the tactics we engaged in .......... How can we expect our Brothers to be treated humane manner when we treat others like dirt ?.......

BroncoBuff
03-16-2006, 05:36 PM
The hysteria-mongers are on both sides of the aisle. Look no further than the Supreme Court Senate hearings or Senator Durbin's idiotic remarks about Pol Pot and our Stalinist soldiers. Both sides use hyperbole and blatant exaggeration to make their mundane and esoteric positions seem plausible. Myself, i'd just like to be able to vote on some of these issues. Whether you're for gay marriage or for banning abortions, it'd sure be nice to have a legitimate say by voting since it's pretty clear that neither party can be trusted to do anything more than pander to self interests.
That would be TRUE democracy .... forget the republic and representative democracy .... let's have a general election every year for all the important questions!

Sounds great. I vote YES....

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
03-17-2006, 01:42 AM
The elite effort to subvert democracy

Elite control to subvert democracy is quite explicit when one sees the great rift between public policy and public opinion. A Pew Research Center poll showed that Americans believed the U.S. should mind its own business internationally. Three of four American troops serving in Iraq agreed, saying they should withdraw and end the war in Iraq, according to a Zogby-Le Moyne College poll surveyed by face-to-face interviews with soldiers. Unfortunately, public opinion does not guide domestic or foreign policy and we won't be leaving Iraq anytime soon. The vice president said that the "War on Terror" is a "war which will not end in our lifetimes."

The Program on International Policy Attitudes polled Americans' attitudes toward the last federal budget. Where spending is going up (military, Iraq, Afghanistan), Americans wanted it to go down. Areas where the budget was decreasing -- social spending, education, renewable energy, support for the United Nations -- people wanted it to go up. The 2007 federal budget is more of the same. A huge majority wanted to reverse the tax cuts for the wealthy. "Democracy" is a term we hear ad nauseum by the president's speechwriters and apparatchiks, but the word does not approximate our reality. The fantasies propagated about our government and economy start in our schools, which according to the Trilateral Commission are responsible for the "indoctrination of the young."

The unthinking public continues to be deluded by massive state-corporate propaganda campaigns on all fronts. The deception justifying the illegal invasion of Iraq will surely go down in history as one of the greatest achievements of American propaganda. The anti-Iran propaganda is working, as more than half of Americans think Iran is a threat to their existence. The driving motive of the invasion is to retain American global hegemony by controlling the last remaining significant energy reserves left on the planet. What this means is U.S. planners will attempt to rule the world and destroy the social contract here at home to pay for future imperial wars.

Petroleum geologists are not popular and their warnings of Peak Oil are underreported by the "liberal media." A 2004 meeting of the Association for the Study of Peak Oil and Gas in Berlin included representatives from BP, ExxonMobil and the International Energy Agency. A U.K. observer at the ASPO stated "for the record, Ghawar's (the world's largest oil reservoir, located in Saudi Arabia) ultimate recoverable reserves in 1975 were estimated at 60 billion barrels -- by ExxonMobil, Texaco, and Chevron. It had produced 55 billion barrels up to the end of 2003 and is still producing at 1.8 billion per annum. That shows you how close it might be to the end. When Ghawar dies, the world is officially in decline."

Matthew Simmons, CEO of Simmons and Co. International, the world's largest private energy investment bank, believes the Saudis are "out of capacity." Secretary of Energy Spencer Abraham concludes, "America faces a major energy supply crisis over the next two decades. The failure to meet this challenge will threaten our nation's economic prosperity, compromise our national security and literally alter the way we lead our lives."

Richard Heinberg's book, "The Party's Over: Oil, War and the Fate of Industrial Societies," presents what will be the most significant event in human history -- the imminent decline of cheap oil -- and what we can do about it.
The current administration was inaugurated by stealing two elections, placed war criminals in key government positions, was complicit in facilitating 9/11 attacks, lied to the American people for the illegal invasion of a sovereign nation, contravened international law, used and still uses "weapons of mass destruction" in Iraq and Afghanistan, and has subverted the Constitution. We live in a criminal state. The planet is facing an ecological crisis that will be irreversible if we continue with our system of waste, fraud, pollution and voracious resource depletion. Humanity was in "a race between education and catastrophe," according to H.G. Wells. Implementing a "power-down" strategy involves reducing "resource usage in wealthy countries, developing alternative energy sources, distributing resources more equitably, and reducing the human population humanely but systematically over time. It could save us, but will require tremendous effort and economic sacrifice." The inevitable confrontation with Mother Nature -- to rid itself of the human parasite and preside over the collapse of our unsustainable economic system -- is imminent. The question is whether a democratic global economy will evolve sooner or later. If later, we will sink to a level of barbarism never seen before. If sooner, we can work forging communities based on solidarity, mutual aid, tolerance and sustainability that will improve the quality of life and mitigate the damage done to the planet's fragile ecosystem that we are so dependent on.

http://www.napavalleyregister.com/articles/2006/03/14/opinion/commentary/iq_3343837.txt

Rohirrim
03-17-2006, 08:03 AM
I think this guy has his aluminum foil hat pulled on too tight.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
03-17-2006, 06:07 PM
I think this guy has his aluminum foil hat pulled on too tight.

Not everyone is going to buy into every argument he makes, but he does make some interesting and valid points, e.g., re: the schism between public policy and public opinion, peak oil, etc.