New TOOL CD!!! - 10,000 days

[FADERPROOF]

Alright, I know there's more huge fans of the bandTOOL than just me, and over the past month there have been more and more reports on the new album process and how it is progressing.

Well, just 3 days ago it broke that the new album title will be called"10,000 days", and just yesterday it was confirmed by a reliable source that indeed it will be called that.

The current tentative release date for this album is Tuesday May 2nd, with their first radio single to start being aired on April 17th(which is Maynards birthday for those that don't know, wish him a Happy 42nd while listening to the new track.)

I know this is TOOL and anything can change within a minute and a lot of things do not come true, but they are booked for an European and Australian tour starting in May and ending in August, where then I will assume that they start touring the U.S.

Finally!!! They have been my favorite band since 1993 and these long waits between albums just kill me(if the album is released on May 2nd then it will be 4 years and 359 days between albums as Lateralus came out on May 8th, 2001.)

Alright TOOL fans, let me hear how excited you are for this!!:

[Mile High Shack]

I'm excited

but I thought Maynard became a christian and didn't want to do TOOL anymore

[ludo21]

SWEEETTTTTTT~!!!!!!

i cant wait, anyway to find some samples on the net?

[GonzoLays]

SWEEETTTTTTT~!!!!!!

i cant wait, anyway to find some samples on the net?

Just go in your backyard and find a metal trashcan and start beating on it while you scream like you saw a ghost. Thats the album. "Music" if you will.

[ludo21]

Just go in your backyard and find a metal trashcan and start beating on it while you scream like you saw a ghost. Thats the album. "Music" if you will.


Yeah... right....:oyvey:

[FADERPROOF]

I'm excited

but I thought Maynard became a christian and didn't want to do TOOL anymore

That was an April fool's joke, which TOOL is known to do. Last year it was that they signed on to be judges of an American Idol spin-off for rock bands, few years ago they had one where their tour bus crashed, so TOOL just does this on April 1st.

It was basically a spoof of Brian "Head" Welch leaving Korn to become a Christian, Maynard basically said that he found Jesus and put both TOOL and APC on hold as he is concentrating on Christianity, 2 days later it came out that it was a joke.

[FADERPROOF]

SWEEETTTTTTT~!!!!!!

i cant wait, anyway to find some samples on the net?


I havent seen any, I'm sure they'll be samples as the release date reaches closer. We're still 2 months away, the artwork has been finished and now it's soon to be video time.

[Mile High Shack]

That was an April fool's joke, which TOOL is known to do. Last year it was that they signed on to be judges of an American Idol spin-off for rock bands, few years ago they had one where their tour bus crashed, so TOOL just does this on April 1st.

It was basically a spoof of Brian "Head" Welch leaving Korn to become a Christian, Maynard basically said that he found Jesus and put both TOOL and APC on hold as he is concentrating on Christianity, 2 days later it came out that it was a joke.

shows you how much I keep up with this anymore

[Smiling Assassin27]

on a sidenote, has anyone heard the new Guns N Roses? i hear Brian May from Queen plays guitar on it but haven't tracked down a copy.

[Crushaholic]

I misread the title of the thread. I thought it would be 10,000 days before we saw another TOOL CD. I was going to praise...somebody...;)

[Denver Crush]

woot!

[Crushaholic]

on a sidenote, has anyone heard the new Guns N Roses? i hear Brian May from Queen plays guitar on it but haven't tracked down a copy.

Did they finally finish that thing? Axl Rose was so stubborn about completing the project for a long time. I'll have to check it out...

[Smiling Assassin27]

i hear it's slated to be released this month but that there's a single floating around out there. brian may was interviewed saying he played on this single but that out of respect for axl he zipped his lip all this time.

[bronco militia]

Alright, I know there's more huge fans of the bandTOOL than just me, and over the past month there have been more and more reports on the new album process and how it is progressing.

Well, just 3 days ago it broke that the new album title will be called"10,000 days", and just yesterday it was confirmed by a reliable source that indeed it will be called that.

The current tentative release date for this album is Tuesday May 2nd, with their first radio single to start being aired on April 17th(which is Maynards birthday for those that don't know, wish him a Happy 42nd while listening to the new track.)

I know this is TOOL and anything can change within a minute and a lot of things do not come true, but they are booked for an European and Australian tour starting in May and ending in August, where then I will assume that they start touring the U.S.

Finally!!! They have been my favorite band since 1993 and these long waits between albums just kill me(if the album is released on May 2nd then it will be 4 years and 359 days between albums as Lateralus came out on May 8th, 2001.)

Alright TOOL fans, let me hear how excited you are for this!!:

link?

[FADERPROOF]

link?

Toolshed.down.net and toolband.com both have the stories up.

[FADERPROOF]

The official TOOL Eurpean tour, CONFIRMED.

5/26 - Lisbon, Portugal / Superrock Festival
5/27 - Madrid, Spain / Festimad
5/29 - Barcelona, Spain / Razzmatazz
5/30 - Lyon, France / Transbordeur
5/31 - Luxembourg City, Luxembourg / Rockhal
6/2 - Germany / Rock AM Ring
6/3 - Germany / Rock IM Park
6/4 - Landgraaf, Holland / Pink Pop Festival
6/6 - Hamburg, Germany / Sporthalle
6/7 - Berlin, Germany / Columbiahalle
6/8 - Dusseldorf, Germany / Philipshalle
6/16 - Switzerland / Interlaken Festival
6/17 - Vienna, Austria / Nova Rock Festival
6/19 - Milan, Italy / Filaforum
6/21 - Rome, Italy / Foro Italico
6/22 - Bologna, Italy / L R Arena
6/24 - Poland / Katowice Spodek
6/25 - Prague, Czech Republic / T Mobile Arena
6/28 - Paris, France / Le Zenith
6/29 - Belgium / Werchter Festival
7/1 - Denmark / Roskilde Festival
7/4 - Kristiansand, Norway / Quart Festival
7/7 - Gothenburg, Sweden / Metal Town Festival
7/9 - Finland / Turku Festival

[Taco John]

Nice. Finally an album to look forward to. I can't wait.

[Pezman]

Oh yeah, and by the way DenFan,

http://www.coachella.com/

Look who's headlining day #2 of the festival.
And guess who's got duckets ;D

Swwwwwwwwwwwwwweeeeeeeeet!

[FADERPROOF]

Oh yeah, and by the way DenFan,

http://www.coachella.com/

Look who's headlining day #2 of the festival.
And guess who's got duckets ;D

Swwwwwwwwwwwwwweeeeeeeeet!

NICE! You better have some fun there man!

[freak6]

Tool is great. I like the lyrics in APC song The Noose the best though. To me he is talking directly to the Worst President Ever. Thoughts?

I have seen Tool once, do I pay 100$ for Coachella though?

[Pezman]

Tool is great. I like the lyrics in APC song The Noose the best though. To me he is talking directly to the Worst President Ever. Thoughts?

I have seen Tool once, do I pay 100$ for Coachella though?

Only if you do both days. And on day one, only Daft Punk is worthy of seeing IMO.

[freak6]

I'd like to see Damian Marley, TV on the Radio, Franz Ferd, and Lyrics Born from Day 1.

Day 2 has the Yeah Yeahs, stupid Madonna, James Blunt (zzz), Matisyahoo! (overrated) and then closes with the best band on the planet. Tough choice.

[freak6]

It says children are welcome, and it is a bch trying to get sitters for day concerts. Am I wrong if I take my 8 year old to see Tool and Co. live?

[elletrain]

I use to be a huge Tool fan. I have a great respect for Maynard. I love APC, as well. However, another band has completely taken me over. I don't remember the last time I listened to the crap that's on the radio.
CLUTCH.....if you don't know them, check them out.

[Hogan11]

Only if you do both days. And on day one, only Daft Punk is worthy of seeing IMO.

Daft Punk? Bah......I'd show up for The Walkmen and then leave.

[bronco militia]

new tool: Vicarious

http://s48.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=1FDKV2N26364T22ET9S6NGIO0U

[Rock Chalk]

Just go in your backyard and find a metal trashcan and start beating on it while you scream like you saw a ghost. Thats the album. "Music" if you will.
Not very often we agree on anything.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Only if you do both days. And on day one, only Daft Punk is worthy of seeing IMO.

Animal Collective is interesting. Should be nice at coachella.
Depeche Mode is classic.
Sigur Ros RULES!

Day two has some doozys...Yeah,yeah,yeahs, Digable Planets, Tool, Coheed and Cambria should at least be interesting.

[CUBuffman08]

new tool: Vicarious

http://s48.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=1FDKV2N26364T22ET9S6NGIO0U

:thanku:

[Rigs11]

Tool's coming to denver in 3 weeks!!!

KBPI PRESENTS:
An evening with Tool

Wednesday, May 10th

Temple Buell Theatre - All Ages - 8pm
$66.66 Ticketmaster
On sale Saturday

[ludo21]

Tool in phx soon as well.

Heard one of their new songs on the radio today, wow! AWESOME!

[freak6]

So has anyone combined track 11 titled 23 in latin, and mixed it with tracks 3 and 4.

34-11 = 23

Anyway, its makes for a pretty cool remix of track 4, which has the same time 11:13 as tracks 3 and 11 added together.

Very cool. If you need a copy I can hook you up, I got two versions. Still havent taken this cd out of my cars cd player, and it still gets at least 2 tracks on the MP3 player in the gym. I got tix to see them in SD with Snoop, Modest Mouse, Kanye, Sean Paul, Queens of the Stone Age, Yeah Yeah Yeahs, and a bunch of other great artists. Tricky. etc...

[SportinOne]

So has anyone combined track 11 titled 23 in latin, and mixed it with tracks 3 and 4.

34-11 = 23

Anyway, its makes for a pretty cool remix of track 4, which has the same time 11:13 as tracks 3 and 11 added together.

Very cool. If you need a copy I can hook you up, I got two versions. Still havent taken this cd out of my cars cd player, and it still gets at least 2 tracks on the MP3 player in the gym. I got tix to see them in SD with Snoop, Modest Mouse, Kanye, Sean Paul, Queens of the Stone Age, Yeah Yeah Yeahs, and a bunch of other great artists. Tricky. etc...

First of all.. What?

I get the whole latin number thing, but combine tracks? Please explain this to me. If you have combined them and have the files, i'd be very interested to hear what that sounds like.

[Spider]

Is tool a rap group ?

[Pendejo]

Is tool a rap group ?

yes.

[freak6]

Tool is the #1 "rap" group...lol

You take track 11, put in in front of track 3, then copy that over track 4. If you have bit torrent its availible at mininova.org.

[alkemical]

It's a good cd - the artwork pushed it over the edge. I still think la-te-ra-lus is my favorite.

[freak6]

Both are great, but this mixing of 3 songs into one puts tool on another level as far as albums go. Who does that?

[alkemical]

They use alot of the same time signatures per song - I don't believe it's 'overall' intentional - ala 'dark side' + wizard of oz - sometimes, things just fit right.

and in numerology - you would add the 3 and 4, they wouldn't reside side by side -

now, i can make an argument that la-te-ra-lus's song ordering is 'out of order' -

1,12,2,11,3,10,4,9,5,8,6,7,13 (i may be slightly off, but that's what i can do at work off the top of my head) -

Not to mention, i didn't catch any clues from them to mix songs together, they are often good at giving you the clues.

Just like the hidden pages on the website.

[DeusExManning]

I am a huge Tool fan and have everything plus bootlegs but 10000 days was a huge let down for me. I only liked Vicarious. The album was too idosyncratic and there are too many sequences with barely any sound. I have always loved that aspect of tool but this time they over did it. I was told it would grow on me. It hasn't.

[Taco John]

Hmmmm... That's funny, because I thought 10,000 Days was their best work yet. I think the album is a masterpeice of modern music.

[alkemical]

i'm glad they shortened/removed the damn 7 minute intro into EVERY song though

[freak6]

How do you get the hidden pages of the website?

When you hear the mix of the 3 songs, you'll see that it is meant to be.

Listen to Jambi, "when the two become one"

The album art is two pictures mixed to make a 3 dimensional one.

[alkemical]

To find the hidden pages, if i told you, they wouldn't be hidden... ;) I just like to poke faces in rock in the eye.....


Freak,

Alot of the members from tool are in to.... hermetiscm - and 'two becomes one' is often an expression resulting to alchemy. It's not that i don't doubt your claim, but again "dark side + wizard of oz"...... sometimes a true coincidence is wierder than a purposeful one..... (or why lateralus - is really la-te-ra-lus) -

again, since they use ALOT of the same time signatures, matching and mixing tool songs is not overly difficult. I mean really, the core of the music is really the 'same' in terms of structure.

[El Guapo]

tool > *.

and btw, 10,000 days is the number of days from the time maynards mom became paralyzed to the day of her death.

[alkemical]

that a bit under 30yrs isn't it?

[freak6]

To find the hidden pages, if i told you, they wouldn't be hidden... ;) I just like to poke faces in rock in the eye.....


Freak,

Alot of the members from tool are in to.... hermetiscm - and 'two becomes one' is often an expression resulting to alchemy. It's not that i don't doubt your claim, but again "dark side + wizard of oz"...... sometimes a true coincidence is wierder than a purposeful one..... (or why lateralus - is really la-te-ra-lus) -

again, since they use ALOT of the same time signatures, matching and mixing tool songs is not overly difficult. I mean really, the core of the music is really the 'same' in terms of structure.

I don't know, you should listen to them and get back to me. They are sequenced so that the words of part 1 overlap part 2 almost perfectly once you take 11 and put in in front of 3, and then copy that over 4.

I don't know what you mean about poke faces and rock in the eye though.

From Wykepedia -
Some time after Lateralus was released a minor flurry of interpretive activity arose around the album. In particular, Carey told an interviewer about Keenan's remark that the time signatures of the main riff in "Lateralus" (9-8-7) also represented a step in the Fibonacci sequence (the sixteenth step, as it turns out). This led some Tool fans to suggest that the tracks on Lateralus can be listened to in spiral-like orders: 1,2,3,5,8,13,4,6,7,9,10,11,12 ("The Fibonacci Sequence"), 6,7,5,8,4,9,3,10,2,11,1,12,13 ("The Lateralus Prophecy"), or 6,7,5,8,4,9,13,1,12,2,11,3,10 ("The Holy Gift"). These arrangements are rumoured by fans to produce different storylines for the album, although the band has said nothing official on the subject.

Eon Blue Apocalypse" is said to be about Adam Jones' Great Dane named Eon Blue, that had cancer and died, according to an interview with Danny Carey.

[alkemical]

yah, that's my point freak, if they didn't do it - and there's no 'clue' in the lyrics - i'd say coincidence - Hell Jay Z sounded really good MC'ing over top of the beatles -

and again - pink floyd's dark side + wizard of oz - not intentional - but it works

[freak6]

yah, that's my point freak, if they didn't do it - and there's no 'clue' in the lyrics - i'd say coincidence - Hell Jay Z sounded really good MC'ing over top of the beatles -

and again - pink floyd's dark side + wizard of oz - not intentional - but it works

No no no, that's MY point, it works out almost perfectly, you gotta hear it at least, then form your opinion. I like that Grey Album too, that mash up was the best one yet. I have a good NIN/Beatles Mash up song too.

So, you what hidden tool pages are you talking about? Dissectional?

[alkemical]

Nope, it's on toolband's webpage - it's in plain site where the links are hidden -

yes, but dark side + wizard of oz worked out perfectly and PF denies they did it on purpose -

PS - i don't use bit torrent - i don't like opening up my firewall.

[alkemical]

i'll give ya the url extension, but you will have to find out where they buried them on your own:

secrets/renne/main.html

secrets/crypto.html

[freak6]

Yeah, I'm on the initial page zooming in, looking, I cant find much, thanks for the links.

[alkemical]

zooming in won't help ya - they got them nicly hidden and i believe the links only take up 1 pixel

[SportinOne]

So, where on Mininova.org can i find this song? what is the combined version called? link?

[freak6]

http://www.mininova.org/search/?search=tool+wings+for+marie

[alkemical]

you find them yet freak?

[freak6]

Well I went to those links, but I haven't tried to find them much. After you play that dumb video game, and you click continue, its a lame page, I got it to show the Band Members a few times, but I don't see what the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow is as far as those secret pages. I have read the stories about the holy grail and stuff before though, pretty interesting stuff. Maynard wrote 2 songs from the viewpoint that there is a god, and angels and such, but for someone who hates religon so much, I don't get it, has he changed his viewpoints?

[alkemical]

Well I went to those links, but I haven't tried to find them much. After you play that dumb video game, and you click continue, its a lame page, I got it to show the Band Members a few times, but I don't see what the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow is as far as those secret pages. I have read the stories about the holy grail and stuff before though, pretty interesting stuff. Maynard wrote 2 songs from the viewpoint that there is a god, and angels and such, but for someone who hates religon so much, I don't get it, has he changed his viewpoints?


Ahhh, freak - he doesn't like 'religion', but it doesn't mean he's not a spiritual fellow. Most of what he writes to me, is like a purge of all that's negative. That's his release.

I mean, look at most of lateralus's content. Very spiritual. Even stuff on Aenima. It's very easy to attack fundamentalists though, and some of it is deserved IMO. (all fundamentalists IMO, he singles out though).

Make no mistake - angels exist in other realms of spiritual study. Not to mention when i listen to the next to last song on 10k days to me - it's sung from lucifer's perspective. it's a tinge of jealousy and pleading IMO. (that's only one of my interpretations, considering the last track is the voice of God).

[freak6]

You think Right in 2 is from lucifer's viewpoint? He tells you the angels are on the sideline, and then tells you thier thoughts on what they are seeing. I'll relisten, it is in my CPU at work 24/7 ha haa.

From my point of view, you can't pick and choose things from religons and say "this i think is possible, but this is not, this is bs, but this is not"

It's all BS, but I agree, Maynard does come off as very spiritual.

What do you think "the noose" from the 13th step of perfect circle is about, very similar stuff imo? and my fav song from that cd.

[alkemical]

You think Right in 2 is from lucifer's viewpoint? He tells you the angels are on the sideline, and then tells you thier thoughts on what they are seeing. I'll relisten, it is in my CPU at work 24/7 ha haa.


Seeing as lucifer was 'cast down'/demoted - that's how i read into it.

Order is brought out of chaos, as light is wrought out of darkness.

[alkemical]

From my point of view, you can't pick and choose things from religons and say "this i think is possible, but this is not, this is bs, but this is not"

It's all BS, but I agree, Maynard does come off as very spiritual.

What do you think "the noose" from the 13th step of perfect circle is about, very similar stuff imo? and my fav song from that cd.


To be honest, i have only listed to 13th step from APC once, i thought overall it was a very very weak album, and maynard recycled melodies from older tool songs. So it very much annoyed me. So i cannot comment on that song.


That's "your" view point about picking and choosing. Doesn't mean that's how it is. Reality is only subjected to the the individual's viewpoint. How the world is to you, is NOT how the world is to Mock, Amesj523, Bendog, etc.

Besides, the basic tennents of the teachings of Jesus, very much compliment/overlap/borrow from Buddism.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avatar (everyone bashes wiki, but for ease of use and if you wish to do your own work, here is a start)


"In Hinduism, an avatar or avatara or avatarim (Sanskrit अवतार), is the incarnation (bodily manifestation) of an Immortal Being, or of the Ultimate Supreme Being. It derives from the Sanskrit word daveed which means "descent" and usually implies a deliberate descent into mortal realms for special purposes. The term is used primarily in Hinduism, for incarnations of Vishnu the Preserver, whom many Hindus worship as God. The Dasavatara (see below) are ten particular "great" incarnations of Vishnu.

Unlike Christianity and Shaivism, Vaishnavism believes that God takes a special (including human) form whenever there is a decline of righteousness (dharma) and rise of evil. Lord Krishna, an avatar of Vishnu, according to Vaishnavism that is espoused by Ramanuja and Madhva, and God in Gaudiya Vaishnavism, said in the Gita: “For the protection of the good, for destruction of evil, and for the establishment of righteousness, I come into being from age to age.” (Bhagavad Gita, Chapter 4, verse 8.) In any event, all Hindus believe that there is no difference between worship of Vishnu and His avatars as it all leads to Him.

The word has also been used by extension to refer to the incarnations of God in other religions, notably Christianity, for example Jesus."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gautama_Buddha


"Contrary to most Buddhists, some Hindu denominations on the basis of the Purāṇas of later Hinduism regard Buddha as the ninth avatar of Viṣṇu and the general decline of Buddhism in India has been attributed to the development of Vedānta philosophy which began challenging Buddhism's philosophically strong image. There are accounts of the Buddha as an incarnation of Vishnu that are pro- and anti-Buddhist. That is to say, either that Vishnu "really meant" what he said while incarnated as Buddha or that he was intentionally tricking those who follow unorthodox doctrines."

Although as with any religion, some say yay, some say nay to that context.



Now, say - "God" appears and influences a new movement, religion - and does so because it has to be 'appealing' and packaged for a different market to understand. Since it is of my own opinion (since i am coming to the conclusion that 'belief' is the death of 'thought') that all religions share that spark of the divine, neither is right - neither is wrong. They all lead back to the same source.



"Nothing is true, everything is permitted".

[SportinOne]

I just mixed it myself, turning Wings Pt 2 into a Windows media file, and then played it on Windows Media player, while playing Wings Part 1 on Winamp.

Maybe my volume is off and one was too loud for the other, but there was only one part where it really sounded cool. Then on the Vigenti Tres part, it was all Wings.. Vigenti Tres is just howling wind it sounds like.

I'll wait until my download is finished, maybe they did a better job of matching it. But i had the times all lined up, and i'm not very impressed as of now... good idea, poor execution. but we'll see.

[Mtbrncofn]

Huh, I just bought this CD a couple of weeks ago and it hasn't been out of my CD rotation in the car yet. :)

[freak6]

Huh, I just bought this CD a couple of weeks ago and it hasn't been out of my CD rotation in the car yet. :)

Me too, it's pretty awesome stuff, it's really heavy, but then Rosetta Stone is a nice piece to break all the seriousness of the album as a whole.

Champ - there should be 2 versions that you download, one mixed, one over different channels. To me it sounds on point, I like it, its like an enhanced remix.

amesj523 - The song "the Noose" is worth a good listen or 2, hundred. Ok, not that many, but its deep.

I have to disagree with your observations on Hinduism. Buddhism as you know came out of India, and has migrated and morphed as it moved north through Tibet, and into China and Mongolia. But they change today, and keep changing. That is why neither is right.

But to extend the premise to "neither is wrong" is weak when basing it upon a few sparse threads of consistency between completely different religons and beliefs.

"Nothing is true, everything is permitted".

It is true that the Old Testament is a book of myths not to be taken seriously. It can be permitted to continue to stain the human race with its plague, but it's negative impact on humanity cannot be overlooked. The same goes for Muslim. There are messiah legends in Native American folklore, they are just as WRONG as the Jesus myth.

To say that religons start comes from a "spark of the divine" is merely stating that the "spark of the divine" comes from one's mind. Any human being put in a situation without knowledge of science will attempt to explain the inexplainable with supernatural reasoning, that is how all religons started.

What true religon has started in the last 300 years? None, because it takes magic, miralces, and lies to start a religon, and with todays technology, knowledge, and social standing where the worlds most educated are not going to be fooled by parlor tricks and magic, there is no way for a new religon to start. All the myths are completely false, or else we would still be observing miracles everyday.

This one guy is blogging the bible on slate.com, good stuff. As far as Hinduism goes, I think I'd be more tempted to worship John Elway. I read the Dalai Llama daily though, his book called "the universe in a single atom" is pretty interesting, comparing religon to science, and trying to come to an conclusion where both can operate without completely obliterating science or religon. He basically concedes that religon must bow to science, and accept the reality of our universe, but he in his usual ways finds a way to keep his views, and most importantly project his compassion into all things we do. Good stuff.

[freak6]

all religions share that spark of the divine, neither is right - neither is wrong. They all lead back to the same source.


See I agree with this statement, but the source is not a divine being, spirit, or entity.

The source is ignorance. The spark comes from a human mind trying to explain the inexplainable. The spark is an idea that is not provable, is all together false, yet at the time seems a viable and convenient option given no other explanations to the mind of the ignorant.

This applies to all religons based upon god, spirits, etc...

[alkemical]

I'm not going to respond to everything Freak -

I don't nec. disagree with you on everything - but with most things you typed out i do. I'm not sure you really understood what i was trying to convey.

and again - your reality is not my reality - is not 'the daves' reality, is not.........

[SportinOne]

I haven't bought the cd yet, i just downloaded as a torrent to get a preview... i always buy a cd if it is worthy, though. I'm going to get this one, but, did they really shorten most of the songs?

Right now i'm just not patient enough to listen to most of these songs. You have to cut through alot of instrumentals to get to the meat of anything.. but then again i haven't been able to smoke in 3 years (service) so maybe i just am not in the right state of mind. Don't get me wrong, i'm not one-sided, i do appreciate good music, i just do most of my music listening on the way to work and i need something more like Stinkfist or Forty Six and Two most days.

[alkemical]

I haven't bought the cd yet, i just downloaded as a torrent to get a preview... i always buy a cd if it is worthy, though. I'm going to get this one, but, did they really shorten most of the songs?

Right now i'm just not patient enough to listen to most of these songs. You have to cut through alot of instrumentals to get to the meat of anything.. but then again i haven't been able to smoke in 3 years (service) so maybe i just am not in the right state of mind. Don't get me wrong, i'm not one-sided, i do appreciate good music, i just do most of my music listening on the way to work and i need something more like Stinkfist or Forty Six and Two most days.


i thought they got rid of most of the damn 10min interlude to each song.

[Florida_Bronco]

All this stuff is way too deep for me...maybe that's why I never liked tool or APC.

[alkemical]

and for those of you who do not believe magik exists - i fully disagree.

[Taco John]

http://www.mininova.org/search/?search=tool+wings+for+marie



Boy, that sounds terrible.

I like the original versions much better.

[Taco John]

I haven't bought the cd yet, i just downloaded as a torrent to get a preview... i always buy a cd if it is worthy, though. I'm going to get this one, but, did they really shorten most of the songs?

Right now i'm just not patient enough to listen to most of these songs. You have to cut through alot of instrumentals to get to the meat of anything.. but then again i haven't been able to smoke in 3 years (service) so maybe i just am not in the right state of mind. Don't get me wrong, i'm not one-sided, i do appreciate good music, i just do most of my music listening on the way to work and i need something more like Stinkfist or Forty Six and Two most days.


I think they're trying to scare off a few fans by challenging the fan base. Certainly, they want people to be patient in order to "get" this album. They're not delivering anything on a silver platter here. The album is full of drawn out melodies, and sound scapes that are used to paint musical imagery.

By all accounts, this is a Love it or Hate it album. My friends who are looking for "Tool to be pissed off" were greatly disappointed. They're not really angry in this album at all. More enlightened than anything. The album is primarily about Maynard's relationship with his mom, and his delivery from "the dark side." There are a couple songs in there that don't seem to deal with her death. It's my guess that they were created prior to her passing, at which time the album took a turn for the very somber and serious.

It's a very emotional album. Probably my favorite of theirs.

[DB-Freak]

See I agree with this statement, but the source is not a divine being, spirit, or entity.

The source is ignorance. The spark comes from a human mind trying to explain the inexplainable. The spark is an idea that is not provable, is all together false, yet at the time seems a viable and convenient option given no other explanations to the mind of the ignorant.

This applies to all religons based upon god, spirits, etc...
To each's own, but.........

It's funny because you yourself can not prove it.

It's even funnier that you think probably think of it as an absolute truth.


“Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of Truth and Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods.”
Albert Einstein

[ozomulsion]

To each's own, but.........

It's funny because you yourself can not prove it.

It's even funnier that you think probably think of it as an absolute truth.


“Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of Truth and Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods.”
Albert Einstein

LOL Yeah I bet freak15 will be "shipwrecked" any minute now.

[freak6]

Yeah, I can and have proven that the christian god is an impossibility to a priest, pastor, or equal sophist in 6 different brands of christianity. They all conceded the debate to me, and fell back on thier "faith".

Faith = Ignorance

Every single one of them agreed to me that based upon thier own rules, thier god was an impossible being. Then like the ignorant sheep that they are, they still said they believed.

[alkemical]

I believe in God, just not one that is afforded by mainstream.

[freak6]

I believe in God, just not one that is afforded by mainstream.

Why?

[Taco John]

Why not?

[freak6]

Because it is irrational to believe in something with no evidence of its existence.

[Taco John]

Because it is irrational to believe in something with no evidence of its existence.


My own existence is evidence enough to me that God exists. Not to mention the mathematical improbability of such.

[phisig150]

Because it is irrational to believe in something with no evidence of its existence.
I'm agnostic myself but any religion has some truth to it. Read Decartes and then you'll find the only thing you can believe ultimately with certainity (at least at the beginning of Decartes writings) is that you on somd realm in some form do indeed exisit. Evolution is a religion unto itself unless you have the video tape from the creation of the universe to prove me wrong, Science has just as many holes as any religion does. I personally like Hinduism their gods are badass. Does Jesus have eight arms or an elephant head. In the end Alistor Crowley sums it up best " Do what that Whilst" Be a Christian, Muslim, Jew,or a Satanist just be true to your self. I personally subscribe to the srtict tennets of Alcholism. If you find someone that can outdrink you then that person is god until someone can outdrink him. God is the being that can't be drank under the table thus god= Keith Richards.

[phisig150]

Yeah, I can and have proven that the christian god is an impossibility to a priest, pastor, or equal sophist in 6 different brands of christianity. They all conceded the debate to me, and fell back on thier "faith".

Faith = Ignorance

Every single one of them agreed to me that based upon thier own rules, thier god was an impossible being. Then like the ignorant sheep that they are, they still said they believed.

Any religious leader worth their salt will have convincing arguments for their faith you must have found come across some weak or inexperinced ones. My philospophy 101 is a little rusty but I recall a couple, 1 is the watchmaker argument, 2 is Pasqual's(?) wager, 3 is the highest being you can concieve of is in fact God forgot who is credited with that but for my money it's my fiance because you can never beat her in an argument no matter how logical or right you are or maybe Andre the Giant because he was an unstoppable force in the WWF in its heydey when wrestlers were truly Gods.

[Florida_Bronco]

Because it is irrational to believe in something with no evidence of its existence.

It's also irrational, IMHO, to disbelieve in something with no evidence that it doesn't exist. Me personally, I've seen many miracles worked by the Lord, which is enough to make me believe.

[alkemical]

Why?


It is a very very very small % of people who use the same..... philosophy shall we say - and often times - those of use who persue the great work at hand also understand that it's extremely personal, and different aspects of it are refined through each person. So there's not a real conformity to it.


Why should i decline to treat my body as a temple? Since my soul dwells in my body, does not god dwell in the temple?

If we are all a part, piece, extension of God, then god and i are just reflections of each other. Since you would also be an extension, you and i would be reflections of each other as well.

Since the hermetic axiom - 'as above, so below' illustrates - "you can't have one without the other" (such a poor choice of words on my point).

[alkemical]

I'm agnostic myself but any religion has some truth to it. Read Decartes and then you'll find the only thing you can believe ultimately with certainity (at least at the beginning of Decartes writings) is that you on somd realm in some form do indeed exisit. Evolution is a religion unto itself unless you have the video tape from the creation of the universe to prove me wrong, Science has just as many holes as any religion does. I personally like Hinduism their gods are badass. Does Jesus have eight arms or an elephant head. In the end Alistor Crowley sums it up best " Do what that Whilst" Be a Christian, Muslim, Jew,or a Satanist just be true to your self. I personally subscribe to the srtict tennets of Alcholism. If you find someone that can outdrink you then that person is god until someone can outdrink him. God is the being that can't be drank under the table thus god= Keith Richards.


Aleister Crowley sums it up best " Do what that Whilst to the whole of the law


I like hinduism too - see my avatar... ;)

I truley have a disdain for people who persue arts/religion for darkness and ego.

[freak6]

It's also irrational, IMHO, to disbelieve in something with no evidence that it doesn't exist.

lmfao, so you believe in the easter bunny, santa claus, and that there was a T-rex that actually sprouted wings and then used his two arms to develop a nuclear weapon which actually destroyed the dinosaurs... Hey, if you can't prove it didn't happen, then you shouldn't disbelieve it right?

Sheep mentality like that led us to the War in Iraq, the death of millions of people in the name of religion, and the drowning of witches in Salem.

[alkemical]

lmfao, so you believe in the easter bunny, santa claus, and that there was a T-rex that actually sprouted wings and then used his two arms to develop a nuclear weapon which actually destroyed the dinosaurs... Hey, if you can't prove it didn't happen, then you shouldn't disbelieve it right?

Sheep mentality like that led us to the War in Iraq, the death of millions of people in the name of religion, and the drowning of witches in Salem.


Nothing is true and everything is possible.

[freak6]

Why should i decline to treat my body as a temple? Since my soul dwells in my body, does not god dwell in the temple?


Treat your body as a temple, I do too, we all should. But define "soul", and why would you assume that you have a soul when there is no evidence of such a thing at all. Nor is there any evidence of a god. Nor is there any evidence that a god is a part of your soul.

Does a paramecium have a soul? When did animals evolve souls? Do trees have souls?

I forcast your answer will be vague yet again, because there is no evidence that you can point to, just beliefs that you have assumed.

Assuming beliefs is as ridiculous as a Hindu worshiping his gods because he grew up India, the only reason he is Hindu is because he was born there, the only reason the young jew is not worshiping Allah is because he was born in Jeruseleum and not Bangledesh, and the only reason the Aztec cut out the heart of the virgin is because he assumed the beliefs of his geographic area.

If we are all a part, piece, extension of God, then god and i are just reflections of each other.



Again you assume there is a god. I asked "why do you believe in a god?"
How are you a part, piece, or an extension of something that you don't have a shred of evidence to say is even there. Making these assumptions and grand leaps in faith that fly in the face of mountains of evidence is irrational.

[freak6]

Nothing is true and everything is possible.

Wrong, it is true that I cannot grow wings and fly, and it is not possible for me to do so.

[freak6]

It's also irrational, IMHO, to disbelieve in something with no evidence that it doesn't exist. Me personally, I've seen many miracles worked by the Lord, which is enough to make me believe.

btw - as I stated, I already proved the impossibility of the christian god to the priests of 6 different sects of christianity. They all conceded to me that the christian god is an impossibility.

[freak6]

My own existence is evidence enough to me that God exists. Not to mention the mathematical improbability of such.

How is your existence evidence that there is a "god", what math is there that leads to the probability of the existence of a "god".

Also, define your god.

[alkemical]

Treat your body as a temple, I do too, we all should. But define "soul", and why would you assume that you have a soul when there is no evidence of such a thing at all. Nor is there any evidence of a god. Nor is there any evidence that a god is a part of your soul.

Does a paramecium have a soul? When did animals evolve souls? Do trees have souls?

I forcast your answer will be vague yet again, because there is no evidence that you can point to, just beliefs that you have assumed.

Assuming beliefs is as ridiculous as a Hindu worshiping his gods because he grew up India, the only reason he is Hindu is because he was born there, the only reason the young jew is not worshiping Allah is because he was born in Jeruseleum and not Bangledesh, and the only reason the Aztec cut out the heart of the virgin is because he assumed the beliefs of his geographic area.


Again you assume there is a god. I asked "why do you believe in a god?"
How are you a part, piece, or an extension of something that you don't have a shred of evidence to say is even there. Making these assumptions and grand leaps in faith that fly in the face of mountains of evidence is irrational.


Can you give me proof that god does not exist any more than i can give you proof that god does. Can you give me proof the soul does not exist anymore than i can give you proof that it does.

I firmly believe that everything living has a spark of the divine. Whom that divine is, i cannot say. Maybe Zecharia Stitchen is right, and we were contrived to be slaves for the race of beings that 'made us'. Thing is Freak15, is i don't have a 'belief' that contains insomuch an answer that ties it all up for me. That's part of being human. How do i know what god is beyond the perception and perspective that i've had living this life of mine.


Just as you refuse, i accept.

[alkemical]

How is your existence evidence that there is a "god", what math is there that leads to the probability of the existence of a "god".

Also, define your god.


.

[freak6]

Can you give me proof that god does not exist any more than i can give you proof that god does. Can you give me proof the soul does not exist anymore than i can give you proof that it does.

If you define your god as anything other than the something that created our universe with the big bang than you are being irrational in your belief of a god.

Is it possible that there is a being with complete control of what would happen when it created the universe, down to the ant being eaten by the anteater and his atoms being dispersed back into the universe via gas from the ass of the anteater? Yes. Or maybe it created the universe with no idea what would happen, and it is an experiment by beings in another dimension? Maybe we are the 334,626 universe they created, in an attempt to get a certain result. Or maybe this is all just a computer program, and I am Neo...

The point is that any idea or theory that cannot be disproven does not make it right, going back to me sprouting wings and 400 lbs horns from my head, and flying to Saturn to recover some Nitrogen to make a WMD for my favorite president.

There is no evidence of a god that has taken an active interest in what happens to us. We are miniscule in proportion to the size of the universe, and to think that we are somehow special, and get divine intervention is the most absurd thing I have ever heard.

[Florida_Bronco]

lmfao, so you believe in the easter bunny, santa claus, and that there was a T-rex that actually sprouted wings and then used his two arms to develop a nuclear weapon which actually destroyed the dinosaurs... Hey, if you can't prove it didn't happen, then you shouldn't disbelieve it right?

Sheep mentality like that led us to the War in Iraq, the death of millions of people in the name of religion, and the drowning of witches in Salem.

You're a sheep too, just of a different flock is all.

I'm not going to be drawn into a debate about this. I believe, you don't...that's fine. I've seen miracles performed by the Lord first hand, something which you cannot refute, some of those miracles performed on people who were just like you once. I'm not going to try and change your feelings, and you sure as heck won't change mine, so lets leave it at that.

You do your thing, I'll do mine.

[alkemical]

If you define your god as anything other than the something that created our universe with the big bang than you are being irrational in your belief of a god.

Where did i state this?



Is it possible that there is a being with complete control of what would happen when it created the universe, down to the ant being eaten by the anteater and his atoms being dispersed back into the universe via gas from the ass of the anteater? Yes. Or maybe it created the universe with no idea what would happen, and it is an experiment by beings in another dimension? Maybe we are the 334,626 universe they created, in an attempt to get a certain result. Or maybe this is all just a computer program, and I am Neo...


maybe... i don't have the answers, and if you are seeking answers - would not be the one to ask. I do know of a man you could ask though....


The point is that any idea or theory that cannot be disproven does not make it right, going back to me sprouting wings and 400 lbs horns from my head, and flying to Saturn to recover some Nitrogen to make a WMD for my favorite president.

There is no evidence of a god that has taken an active interest in what happens to us. We are miniscule in proportion to the size of the universe, and to think that we are somehow special, and get divine intervention is the most absurd thing I have ever heard.


:) Re: Sprouting wings: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=389357&in_page_id=17701

Special forces to use strap-on 'Batwings'



I think you are projecting your own internal dillema/agenda into what i say. We are miniscule in proportion to the universe, i'm no more bigger than a 'cell' on this organism called 'earth'.

Again, show me where i said or stated ANYTHING about divine intervention. I didn't, so tell me - why attack me with such charges when i stated no such thing?

[freak6]

I'm not going to be drawn into a debate about this. I believe, you don't...that's fine. I've seen miracles performed by the Lord first hand, something which you cannot refute.

A sheep blindly follows. My eyes are wide open to the truth about christianity. Just look at how ridiculous the Old Testament is.

As far as why you don't want to talk about your beliefs, aren't you supposed to spread the good word? I smell fear of having the curtain pulled on the Wiz of Oz.

I'd love to hear about the irrefuttable miracles that you witnessed. If it is such an important part of your life, why would you have any fear about talking about it. If you have given your LIFE to jesus, and the belief that he is the son of god, why would you NOT want to examine your beliefs?

F E A R of truth and knowledge, something that the churches have been fighting since Copernicus, Gallileo, and Darwin, because it destroys thier beliefs.

Christianity will always fight to keep thier FLOCK of sheep ignorant to the truth, hence the moronic Kansas State "education" Board. It is a control they use to keep the ignorant ignorant, and donating.

[freak6]

Again, show me where i said or stated ANYTHING about divine intervention. I didn't, so tell me - why attack me with such charges when i stated no such thing?

You said all life has the spark of the divine. Now before my son was born, there was no spark that was him, he was in the future. But when me and my ex made him, where did the divine spark come from?

You would have to fall back onto what I said earlier, about the grand plan by your "god" that created the universe with the big bang.

But, you would also have to say that every atom has this spark too I would think because it takes atoms to make life. You can break down your belief to subatomic levels, M theory etc...

You also talked about Jesus and other humans as if they were somehow enbodiments of a divine being.

"The word has also been used by extension to refer to the incarnations of God in other religions, notably Christianity, for example Jesus."

BTW- please don't feel like I am 'attacking' you, were just having a fun chat on religion on the internet.

[Taco John]

Hard to argue with someone who hatefully knows he's right.

[freak6]

Hard to argue with someone who hatefully knows he's right.

You said something about the mathamatical probability of a god, and how your existence is evidence of a god.

I just want to hear more. Please expand, its the offseason for the sake of GOD. lol.

Do you not hate the killing of innocents. I do. I hate ignorance. I hate people that control others through fear, intimidation, and keeping them ignorant.

I love humanity enough to want to purge the world of what is wrong with it, religion being at the top of the list.

[Florida_Bronco]

A sheep blindly follows. My eyes are wide open to the truth about christianity. Just look at how ridiculous the Old Testament is

You are making an awfully big and incorrect assumption about me following blindly, which really says alot about you.

As far as why you don't want to talk about your beliefs, aren't you supposed to spread the good word? I smell fear of having the curtain pulled on the Wiz of Oz.

I'd love to hear about the irrefuttable miracles that you witnessed. If it is such an important part of your life, why would you have any fear about talking about it. If you have given your LIFE to jesus, and the belief that he is the son of god, why would you NOT want to examine your beliefs?

Of course you are supposed to spread the good word, but the other person has to be willing to believe in and accept. Only God can "prove" himself to those who won't believe, and I'm not God. I can talk to you about it until I am blue in the face, but it won't do any good if you aren't willing to believe. Same goes for the miracles I have witnessed...I can and will tell you if you are geniuely interested, but proving to you that God exists is not my place.

What I'm saying is that it's not that I don't want to talk about my beliefs, but I certainly don't need to justify them to you. :)

F E A R of truth and knowledge, something that the churches have been fighting since Copernicus, Gallileo, and Darwin, because it destroys thier beliefs.

Christianity will always fight to keep thier FLOCK of sheep ignorant to the truth, hence the moronic Kansas State "education" Board. It is a control they use to keep the ignorant ignorant, and donating.

Sorry, but you cannot prove that God doesn't exist anymore than I can prove he does exist, neither can anyone else for that matter. There is no fear here, sorry to say.

Also, just judging by your posts here, I don't believe you have a great understanding of the Bible. I suggest you read both the Old and New Testaments in their entirety, you maybe surprised by what you learn, especially how God views "religion"

[alkemical]

You said all life has the spark of the divine. Now before my son was born, there was no spark that was him, he was in the future. But when me and my ex made him, where did the divine spark come from?


Where did it come from freak? I'm only a mere philospher who follows my own path on the tree of life.


You would have to fall back onto what I said earlier, about the grand plan by your "god" that created the universe with the big bang.

Who'se god? I think you believe i'm christian, and am infact not. I don't know if my god created the universe, maybe it was her god.


But, you would also have to say that every atom has this spark too I would think because it takes atoms to make life. You can break down your belief to subatomic levels, M theory etc...


now you are getting closer.....



You also talked about Jesus and other humans as if they were somehow enbodiments of a divine being.

"The word has also been used by extension to refer to the incarnations of God in other religions, notably Christianity, for example Jesus."

BTW- please don't feel like I am 'attacking' you, were just having a fun chat on religion on the internet.


You do not believe, at worst (removing divinity) - there are those who are far more illuminated than you? Jesus, Buddah, Krisna - have seemed to survive longer than you are I will...... In a sense, they are living forever....


You keep putting words into my keyboard that i do not type - do not peg your illusions on me.

[alkemical]

Hard to argue with someone who hatefully knows he's right.


Did my last PM yesterday make sense to you TJ?

[freak6]

What I'm saying is that it's not that I don't want to talk about my beliefs, but I certainly don't need to justify them to you. :)

Also, just judging by your posts here, I don't believe you have a great understanding of the Bible. I suggest you read both the Old and New Testaments in their entirety, you maybe surprised by what you learn, especially how God views "religion"

I was actually confirmed presbyterian. I know enough about the old testament, its all repeated hogwash and myths. That is IRREFUTABLE.

I don't want to debate genesis, but it is clearly all myth.

I'm more interested in these miracles you have witnessed. Of course if I saw a firsthand, bonified miracle, I would believe too. So please share. Again, its the offseason, who cares.

[freak6]

I'm only a mere philospher who follows my own path on the tree of life.

Who'se god? I think you believe i'm christian, and am infact not.

now you are getting closer.....

You do not believe, at worst (removing divinity) - there are those who are far more illuminated than you?


I am also a philosopher following my path. You know how philosophy came to be, where the word sophisticated came from, and claiming to know something without evidence, proof, or logic makes one a sophist. Hence Socrates begot Plato, begot Aristotle.

I definitely do NOT think you are christian. I think you believe that there is a god absent any other explanation for the existence of this universe. I concede this point as I did in my previous post because there is that possibility.

I do not think there are those more illuminated more than me, I know it. That is why I read on the subject, and am looking for others opinions on the subject all the time, to me there isn't a more important question than "what created the universe?"

You asked me "where did the spark come from"

I do not believe that there is a spark of divinity in everything, that is your assumption. You have yet to define "divinity", as I said in the previous post, you could say that the way in which atoms interact, and how quarks inside the atom react are all parts of the divinity if you define divinity as the application of the laws of physics by whatever created our universe.

Maybe if you weren't so vague about everything we could come to some conclusion, but because your beliefs are so vague, and you have nothing concrete to stand upon besides billlions of open ended possibilities, we can't get anywhere. That in of itself is a conclusion, because for either one of us to claim to know, would in turn make us wrong, and a sophist.

But what I can say for certain, is that the christian god is an impossibillity based upon the definition of it, and the Hindu gods are as well.

Since I doubt we will ever resolve any issue about your god(s), since you cannot define what it is, does, or did,

What makes you believe in magik, and please define what magik is?

[alkemical]

I was actually confirmed presbyterian. I know enough about the old testament, its all repeated hogwash and myths. That is IRREFUTABLE.

I don't want to debate genesis, but it is clearly all myth.

I'm more interested in these miracles you have witnessed. Of course if I saw a firsthand, bonified miracle, I would believe too. So please share. Again, its the offseason, who cares.


Do you think Giants existed?

http://www.stevequayle.com/Giants/index2.html

[freak6]

Do you think Giants existed?

http://www.stevequayle.com/Giants/index2.html

No.

Do you believe in dragons, unicorns, minotaurs, and fairies?

[alkemical]

I am also a philosopher following my path. You know how philosophy came to be, where the word sophisticated came from, and claiming to know something without evidence, proof, or logic makes one a sophist. Hence Socrates begot Plato, begot Aristotle.


What comes before thought?



I definitely do NOT think you are christian. I think you believe that there is a god absent any other explanation for the existence of this universe. I concede this point as I did in my previous post because there is that possibility.

I do not think there are those more illuminated more than me, I know it. That is why I read on the subject, and am looking for others opinions on the subject all the time, to me there isn't a more important question than "what created the universe?"


If there are none more illuminated than you, than why ask to learn?





You asked me "where did the spark come from"

I do not believe that there is a spark of divinity in everything, that is your assumption. You have yet to define "divinity", as I said in the previous post, you could say that the way in which atoms interact, and how quarks inside the atom react are all parts of the divinity if you define divinity as the application of the laws of physics by whatever created our universe.



In someways you answered your own question. I mean Einstien used physics to figure out how god created the universe we live in, to rationalize it, to make it tangible. Divinity to me, is everything from life (which is an extension of god, say as a ray of light from the sun is an extension of the sun) - but there is no 'applicable' name or being for me that can be construed as 'the grand architect of all this is and was'. I have no word i can utter, that would satisfy what you are looking for. If you take a bit of hassidic philosphy, stir it around with some rastafarian beliefs in life and god - you'd get a brief glimpse into how i view "god". But it's as big as the universe.



Maybe if you weren't so vague about everything we could come to some conclusion, but because your beliefs are so vague, and you have nothing concrete to stand upon besides billlions of open ended possibilities, we can't get anywhere. That in of itself is a conclusion, because for either one of us to claim to know, would in turn make us wrong, and a sophist.

But what I can say for certain, is that the christian god is an impossibillity, and the Hindu gods are as well.

Since I doubt we will ever resolve any issue about your god, since you cannot define what it is, does, or did, what makes you believe in magik, and please define what magik is.


What kind of conclusion do you want? I've given you answers, and not all of them are vague. I just don't tie myself to any belief that gives me an answer, because *drumroll please* no one has the answers. That's the curse of mankind.

I believe in magik, whether it's really 'real' and what happens really 'happens' or weather it's a system used to force my will to create changes is an answer i do not have. I just know it works, and have been able to repeat the formulae with success. Not to mention i love the psychology and the application it uses to help me refine myself, and negate the influx of ego. It sharpens the will and gives me focus. It's helped me in my drumming skills being able to process information for each limb to operate on it's own impedence.



PS - maybe it's not answeres that are vague, but maybe your questions...

[alkemical]

No.

Do you believe in dragons, unicorns, minotaurs, and fairies?


From some stand points i do. Most of it more allegorical... I do think there is credence to legend and myth, after all - at some point history turns into those.

but for the most part, for instance - fairies - i can find correlation between other 'religions' and 'systems' that have very similar underpinnings.

The dragon - can either be tied to a much more mystical rite (ala merlin's description in the aurthur legends) - the chinese - or older cultures that talked of lizard people. Do they exist in 'reality' or on an 'astral' plane (where the shamans of old walked). I haven't run into one in either place, so i can't confirm.

[freak6]

If there are none more illuminated than you, than why ask to learn?

In someways you answered your own question. What kind of conclusion do you want?

I believe in magik, whether it's really 'real' and what happens really 'happens' or weather it's a system used to force my will to create changes is an answer i do not have.

I think you misunderstood me. I KNOW there are many people more illuminated than me, that is why I continue to research the subject.

I got the conclusion I wanted, you cannot define your idea of god. Your "god" is an idea you use to explain the inexplainable, just like those early humans who could'nt fathom what the stars were and why they do what they do. There's nothing wrong with that view, and I can't argue that. Your mixing and mashing of different ideas to come to your open minded world view is what this world needs, and much less fundamentalism, absolutism, and closed mindedness that comes from religion. I too am open minded about the possibilities, but with no evidence to suggest that there is A 'God' so to speak, I deny the existence of A God.

What I did ask was what is your definition of "magik"?

[freak6]

I haven't run into one in either place, so i can't confirm.

lol, yeah, me either. The Astral Plane, do you believe in another plane of existence? and can you please define "soul", since you believe in one?

[alkemical]

I think you misunderstood me. I KNOW there are many people more illuminated than me, that is why I continue to research the subject.

I do not think there are those more illuminated more than me, I know it. That is why I read on the subject, and am looking for others opinions on the subject all the time, to me there isn't a more important question than "what created the universe?"

Then why the contradictory statements?


I got the conclusion I wanted, you cannot define your idea of god. Your "god" is an idea you use to explain the inexplainable, just like those early humans who could'nt fathom what the stars were and why they do what they do. There's nothing wrong with that view, and I can't argue that. Your mixing and mashing of different ideas to come to your open minded world view is what this world needs, and much less fundamentalism, absolutism, and closed mindedness that comes from religion.


I too am open minded about the possibilities, but with no evidence to suggest that there is A 'God' so to speak, I deny the existence of A God.

This statment opposes itself.

What I did ask was what is your definition of "magik"?


I defined god, it's just not the traditional explanation you wanted. Not to mention you have not proved the opposite is true. Isn't belief the end of thought? You've already come to the belief that God does not exist, thus you project all of your thoughts into validating this conclusion you have come to. Just as I have come to understand that God exists, i don't try to prove it - i just try to understand it through the aeons of knowledge passed on from culture and time.

IMO Magik is the direction of will to induce change in the 'physical' reality.

[alkemical]

lol, yeah, me either. The Astral Plane, do you believe in another plane of existence? and can you please define "soul", since you believe in one?


Why don't you define what the soul is?
For me, it's what struggles against my ego, to break free of my fleshly bondage. It's my 'true' essence. It is me when i am playing drums.
When i am at my most free moment of self expression that is not rulled by ego, or body - that is my soul.


Of course i believe in another plane of existence (hermetic axciom:as above, so below). Just as i believe in other dimensions. Science just hasn't caught up to it yet. Hence, they are sending a sattilite up to check to see if we are a 3d universe floating in a 5d universe. Actually superstring theory and hyperdimensional physics are being used to try to prove these very things that the ancients wrote in prose and verse, in great tales of lore. There is always a kernel of truth present, exaggerated yes.

I mean, if Zecharia Stitchen is correct, and we were enginnered from the "annanaki" - maybe creating eve from 'adam's rib' - was nothing more than cloning done by an advanced race of people - and it the people that couldn't comprehend it - wrote in the way they could understand.

[alkemical]

Originally Posted by freak15
I got the conclusion I wanted, you cannot define your idea of god. Your "god" is an idea you use to explain the inexplainable, just like those early humans who could'nt fathom what the stars were and why they do what they do.


Not to mention, i've never used "God" to justify what i don't understand, again, is you keep putting words in my keyboard. Seems to me you keep projecting what you WANT to read into what I type.


I've never said it was God's will that my dad died. Nor have i ever said it was god's will when good or bad happen to me.

[Taco John]

There's definitely a more important question than "who/what created the universe."

That question is, "what can I get out of it?"

[freak6]

Then why the contradictory statements?

This statment opposes itself.

IMO Magik is the direction of will to induce change in the 'physical' reality.

Not contradictory, what I meant is that it is not my opinion, it is a fact that there are others more illuminated than myself.

It is not open minded to "believe" that there is a god, flying in the face of all evidence. I deny the existence of dragons, for the same reasons I deny the existence of A God.

A God - any god defined by humans like Yahweh, Allah, Shiva, Io, Zeus etc...

[alkemical]

Not contradictory, what I meant is that it is not my opinion, it is a fact that there are others more illuminated than myself.

It is not open minded to "believe" that there is a god, flying in the face of all evidence. I deny the existence of dragons, for the same reasons I deny the existence of A God.

A God - any god defined by humans like Yahweh, Allah, Shiva, Io, Zeus etc...


maybe the proof you are looking for, is much less obvious than what you think it will be or should be.

[freak6]

Why don't you define what the soul is?
I don't believe in a soul, but I recognize our conscienceness and personality made up by our brain, that is the closest thing that I would call a person's soul. By your definition of soul, would not the soul of every person be the same?

Just as i believe in other dimensions. Science just hasn't caught up to it yet. Hence, they are sending a sattilite up to check to see if we are a 3d universe floating in a 5d universe.



We live in a 4 dimensional do we not, time being our 4th. Do you have a link for that satalite story? The last I read, our universe was a 10 that broke into a 4 and a 6 (big bang), or a 4 and a seven. The 6 or 7 is at the subatomic level. At least that was the theory.

[freak6]

Not to mention, i've never used "God" to justify what i don't understand, again, is you keep putting words in my keyboard. I've never said it was God's will that my dad died. Nor have i ever said it was god's will when good or bad happen to me.

You cannot explain the existence of this Universe, so you believe in god. But if you define god as whatever created the Universe, then I too have to believe in god because there is this universe. For me right now, this god would be whatever caused the universe, even if it was nothing. I read one phycists theory on the big bang, that given trillions of trillions of years, even nothing will eventually break down and that was what caused the big bang, nothing breaking down. This kind of flys in the face of the basic axiom, for every action there is a reaction, but beyond the big bang, we are nearly blind.

[alkemical]

I don't believe in a soul, but I recognize our conscienceness and personality made up by our brain, that is the closest thing that I would call a person's soul. By your definition of soul, would not the soul of every person be the same?


We live in a 4 dimensional do we not, time being our 4th. Do you have a link for that satalite story? The last I read, our universe was a 10 that broke into a 4 and a 6 (big bang), or a 4 and a seven. The 6 or 7 is at the subatomic level. At least that was the theory.



Whether the soul exists as something tangible, or is an effigy to all that is good in mankind's heart to me is of no importance.

When light is split through a prisim, is it all 'white'?

I can ask you why aren't people the same?


http://www.newscientistspace.com/article/dn9240

Satellite could open door on extra dimension



Floating universe
Now, Keeton and colleague Arlie Petters at Duke University in North Carolina, US, have calculated how many of these tiny black holes should exist – and how they might be detected – according to an offshoot of string theory.

The theory they use, called the Randall-Sundrum braneworld model, proposes that the 3D universe we live in is floating within a larger universe with an extra spatial dimension.

They based their calculations on black holes that each contain only the mass of a small asteroid. Assuming these objects make up 1% of the mass of nearby dark matter – whose existence can only be detected through its gravitational effects on normal matter – the team says there could be several thousand black holes in the solar system. And not only that: "The nearest ones would lie well inside Pluto's orbit," says

[freak6]

There's definitely a more important question than "who/what created the universe."

That question is, "what can I get out of it?"

I don't think that is more important. It is a given that we will do what we can to avoid suffering, and attempt to make ourselves happy. I guess it is more important to our individual lives, but for me personally, the ultimate question is

"what created the universe, how, and why"

[alkemical]

You cannot explain the existence of this Universe, so you believe in god. But if you define god as whatever created the Universe, then I too have to believe in god because there is this universe. For me right now, this god would be whatever caused the universe, even if it was nothing. I read one phycists theory on the big bang, that given trillions of trillions of years, even nothing will eventually break down and that was what caused the big bang, nothing breaking down. This kind of flys in the face of the basic axiom, for every action there is a reaction, but beyond the big bang, we are nearly blind.


Can you explain the existence of the universe? Or am i just an imagination, a dream, or am i a red blood cell in a big body?

Or maybe the abyss where the big bang happened, is where god is. The beginning, Ain, the nothing.....

Time only exists by man to explain one day to the next. Time is of no relevence to me. the hindu's believe time moves 'backward' - so precognition would actually be a memory.

I wonder why the tide takes me from the shore when i cast out from the beach, but when i'm in the ocean the same system takes me to the shore...

[freak6]

Whether the soul exists as something tangible, or is an effigy to all that is good in mankind's heart to me is of no importance.

I can ask you why aren't people the same?

http://www.newscientistspace.com/article/dn9240

the team says there could be several thousand black holes in the solar system. And not only that: "The nearest ones would lie well inside Pluto's orbit," says

People aren't the same because of mutations in dna, and where and how they are raised.

that is very interesting about the minute black holes, scary, I'll be reading up. Thanks for the link.

[alkemical]

People aren't the same because of mutations in dna, and where and how they are raised.

that is very interesting about the minute black holes, scary, I'll be reading up. Thanks for the link.



Well since you like DNA - i'm surpised you haven't seen god in that..... The shape and design of the DNA structure - is sublime.

The gollum were men made of clay that had no souls. Are we those men of clay? Are we the gollum that were produced by "god"?


Since i'm going to be leaving work soon.

Why don't you offer your proof that god and the soul do not exist.

One philospher once asked "are you born with a soul, or is the process of life about earning one"

[freak6]

Time only exists by man to explain one day to the next. Time is of no relevence to me.

Time exists in our universe, no denying that, but whether or not time is constant is a good question. Moving at half the speed of light we will not age but at 50% of the usual rate and we could travel much further, put in stasis we could travel for extremely long periods of time. To bad you and I will be dead before we have the chance, outside of Rosetta Stone coming true.

on that subject I believe the certainty of alien life yet another reason the planet should ditch christianity, islam, judaism, and other religions.

[alkemical]

Time exists in our universe, no denying that, but whether or not time is constant is a good question. Moving at half the speed of light we will not age but at 50% of the usual rate and we could travel much further, put in stasis we could travel for extremely long periods of time. To bad you and I will be dead before we have the chance, outside of Rosetta Stone coming true.

on that subject I believe the certainty of alien life yet another reason the planet should ditch christianity, islam, judaism, and other religions.


What about the USAF using a hyperdimensional engine (they are developing) that will 'open' a wormhole/black hole and make going to mars say a 3 day trip..... they are then moving outside of the '3d' realm and bypassing the rules of 'time' that we abide by......

now prove to me that aliens exist.

[freak6]

The gollum were men made of clay that had no souls. Are we those men of clay? Are we the gollum that were produced by "god"?

Gollum is an imagined being, please talk in reality. We are not gollum, and we were not made by A God (like the christian one).

Why don't you offer your proof that god and the soul do not exist.


The burden of proof is not on me to supply. I can disprove the christian god, I have yet to research enough to kill the hindu gods, although I plan on getting around to them eventually. They aren't as destructive as the Christian god is to humanity, at least not in the states, so I haven't had the need.

Also, I can't disprove something that is undefinable, imagined, or not tangible. The christian god is defined.

You define soul as something that is you without ego, or body, it is your esential being, I would only argue that that which you consider to a soul is present in everything in the universe. Your definition of soul to me sounds more like Plato's forms. Maybe if you could be more speciific.

As far as your definition of god, if it is whatever lead to the creation of our universe, I too am forced to accept that there is a god, because of our universe, if it is real. I'm out.

Nice chat, for a computer networker, it makes the day fly by.

[freak6]

now prove to me that aliens exist.

I think the chances of alien life in our solar system are high, let along the ENTIRE universe. Can't prove it of course, but the microbes on Mars are stong evidence for other planets. The universe is so vast, even modest calculations make alien life a virtual certainty.

If seeing is believing for you, as it is for me on most subjects, you'll have to wait. The moon of Europa is good place to start looking.

http://www.astrocentral.co.uk/lifeoneuropa.html

[SportinOne]

so, about Tool...

[OrangeShadow]

fader you being prepared for next april or what with that avy?

[SportinOne]

Street Scene in San Diego is going to be pretty cool. Actually, i'm only really going to see Tool. It's too bad that it's in Qualcom and not downtown.

[freak6]

Street Scene in San Diego is going to be pretty cool. Actually, i'm only really going to see Tool. It's too bad that it's in Qualcom and not downtown.

I'll see you there man!!!

It's gonna be a great concert, I'd be there Tool or not. That lineup is the best I've ever witnessed. Tool being there makes it beyond sanity.

[alkemical]

Gollum is an imagined being, please talk in reality. We are not gollum, and we were not made by A God (like the christian one).


The burden of proof is not on me to supply. I can disprove the christian god, I have yet to research enough to kill the hindu gods, although I plan on getting around to them eventually. They aren't as destructive as the Christian god is to humanity, at least not in the states, so I haven't had the need.

Also, I can't disprove something that is undefinable, imagined, or not tangible. The christian god is defined.

You define soul as something that is you without ego, or body, it is your esential being, I would only argue that that which you consider to a soul is present in everything in the universe. Your definition of soul to me sounds more like Plato's forms. Maybe if you could be more speciific.

As far as your definition of god, if it is whatever lead to the creation of our universe, I too am forced to accept that there is a god, because of our universe, if it is real. I'm out.

Nice chat, for a computer networker, it makes the day fly by.


that's a cop out to say the burden of proof is on someone to say something exists, the same burden proves to disprove something as well.

If no have no proof to disprove, therefore - it is not invalid. It is unproven.

You have agenda to disprove god. What's the problem if people like Einstien used science to prove how god's creation is set in motion?

I only have problem with fundamentlists. Fundamentalists of any ilk. Be it religion, science, politics. Athiests can be every bit a fundamentalist as a one who follows religious doctrine. It is much easier to hate and fear, than it is to understand.

I don't hate religion, i don't hate god, i don't hate science. Infact, we will only truley progress when science and religion blend.


I can't explain to you what i expierence(d) in my own life. It is my own quest that i burdened myself with. Just as you cannot prove that there is no soul or there is no god. You say you can prove it, but you really can't. I can say that things in the bible, most of them are allegorical in nature, but for the most part - the teachings and the hidden meanings of things are true and real.

Just as the allegories in hinduism expand to today's science and really, science is only exploring what these teachings from days gone past really offered.

If science and man is your god, one is dependant on the other - and as we all know - 'to err is human' - (oops i forgot to carry the 1... ;) )

[Rausch]

If they don't want to blow you up or stick you in an oven why give a fat frog's azz what anyone else thinks about God?...

[freak6]

that's a cop out to say the burden of proof is on someone to say something exists, the same burden proves to disprove something as well.

Infact, we will only truley progress when science and religion blend.


There is no evidence to support the myths of the bible. I have proven the christian god impossible. I despise fundamentalists as well. Science is not my god, science is the way for humans to understand the universe in which we live. How can I prove something impossible that is undefinable?

There will be no end to the troubles of states, or of humanity itself, till philosophers become kings in this world, or till those we now call kings and rulers really and truly become philosophers, and political power and philosophy thus come into the same hands - Plato

I believe the above, and I disagree with your statement, in that I feel we will only progress when religion is purged by knowledge, fact, and reason (all of which come from science).

Just as the allegories in hinduism expand to today's science and really, science is only exploring what these teachings from days gone past really offered.

I can say that things in the bible, most of them are allegorical in nature, but for the most part - the teachings and the hidden meanings of things are true and real.

If science and man is your god, one is dependant on the other - and as we all know - 'to err is human' - (oops i forgot to carry the 1... )

Who wrote the bible? god...lmfao!!!

The philosophies of the Hindu's about the universe (the jeweled web that has no sides, all jewels being interconnected etc...) are much closer and interesting to the truth than the christians arrogant assumptions that the universe revolves around the earth. On that you are definitely correct, and any objective person would imo be wise to start and the beginnings of hinduism and study how it morphed into buddhism, which can lay beside science without being completely overshadowed and made obsolete.

But again, this does in no way mean that the hindus were correct in having all of these different gods, nor are the buddhists that used some of the same gods. If you throw out the fundamentalist rules (religion basically by def. means it has rules) and take it for what it is worth, a system of beliefs to study and use as a baseline to form your own values and opinions, then yes it has value. I think you would agree to that.

Hopefully as the races of the earth continue to co-mingle, and ideas are spread and shared, there will one day come one world belief system, and mankind will be philosophers instead of what we have today, religions. Religion is the virus that has infected mankind and caused millions of times of more evil than good.

[freak6]

If they don't want to blow you up or stick you in an oven why give a fat frog's azz what anyone else thinks about God?...

Because they likely want to blow up thier neighbor that thinks differently than them. How long have Jews been being killed? The Aztecs sacrificing? Muslims killed? Hindus? Buddhists? Catholics vs Protestants? Christians vs Muslims? Christians vs Native Americans, Pacific Islanders? Romans vs everyone? How many lives have been lost? Countless. How much longer will it continue? Until we squash religion.

[Rausch]

Because they likely want to blow up thier neighbor that thinks differently than them. How long have Jews been being killed? The Aztecs sacrificing? Muslims killed? Hindus? Buddhists? Catholics vs Protestants? Christians vs Muslims? Christians vs Native Americans, Pacific Islanders? Romans vs everyone? How many lives have been lost? Countless. How much longer will it continue? Until we squash religion.

Anyone who doesn't drink (recovering alcoholics aside) needs a swift kick inna' berry bag.

That said, Catholics vs. Protestants has got to be the most tame conflict ever.

2nd, I JUST ****ING SAID if they DON'T want to blow you up or burn you up. Forgive my moment of sadistic levity and just assume I mean ANYONE WHO DOESN'T WANT TO KILL YOU for your religion. Like 99.9% of people on this BB.

I've found a belief system that's helped me find peace - if you haven't that's your problem and none of my concern. I'm selfish like that. It works for me and I don't give a fart in high wind if you agree or not.

It's not my job to convert you...

[Rausch]

Oh, and about anything Maynard does kicks 10,000 asses...

[freak6]

Oh, and about anything Maynard does kicks 10,000 asses...

Agreed, and glad you found what works for you!!!

52 days!!!

[Rausch]

Agreed, and glad you found what works for you!!!

52 days!!!

If you're trying to show me you have tickets, I hate you...

[alkemical]

There is no evidence to support the myths of the bible. I have proven the christian god impossible. I despise fundamentalists as well. Science is not my god, science is the way for humans to understand the universe in which we live. How can I prove something impossible that is undefinable?

There will be no end to the troubles of states, or of humanity itself, till philosophers become kings in this world, or till those we now call kings and rulers really and truly become philosophers, and political power and philosophy thus come into the same hands - Plato

I believe the above, and I disagree with your statement, in that I feel we will only progress when religion is purged by knowledge, fact, and reason (all of which come from science).


Who wrote the bible? god...lmfao!!!

The philosophies of the Hindu's about the universe (the jeweled web that has no sides, all jewels being interconnected etc...) are much closer and interesting to the truth than the christians arrogant assumptions that the universe revolves around the earth. On that you are definitely correct, and any objective person would imo be wise to start and the beginnings of hinduism and study how it morphed into buddhism, which can lay beside science without being completely overshadowed and made obsolete.

But again, this does in no way mean that the hindus were correct in having all of these different gods, nor are the buddhists that used some of the same gods. If you throw out the fundamentalist rules (religion basically by def. means it has rules) and take it for what it is worth, a system of beliefs to study and use as a baseline to form your own values and opinions, then yes it has value. I think you would agree to that.

Hopefully as the races of the earth continue to co-mingle, and ideas are spread and shared, there will one day come one world belief system, and mankind will be philosophers instead of what we have today, religions. Religion is the virus that has infected mankind and caused millions of times of more evil than good.



I'm not going to point it out, but there's actually alot of information in the bible that is correct. Not about the flood, but about the ark. The ark is a representation of something more allegorical. Just as "The World" card is laid out in the formation of how jerusulam is setup. There's a lot of information in there that is very useful if you have the keys to understand it. This is why I apply it to hinduism and other teachings i have found, because there are nuggets that have stood the test of time, and it seems as our technology progress we are finding these items true.

That's my overall point, my secondary point is simply that no matter what you believe - it's never 'true' to someone else. My interest in life is to do what i can to make the world better.

[freak6]

there are nuggets that have stood the test of time, and it seems as our technology progress we are finding these items true.

That's my overall point, my secondary point is simply that no matter what you believe - it's never 'true' to someone else. My interest in life is to do what i can to make the world better.

Of course I agree with you, there is good stuff to be found in the bible. And again, we agree that the danger comes in when people take it literally. My interest in life is to make the world better as well, to bad the below moron is my boss. Squashing the ignorance of religious dogma is my way of doing so.

[alkemical]

Of course I agree with you, there is good stuff to be found in the bible. And again, we agree that the danger comes in when people take it literally. My interest in life is to make the world better as well, to bad the below moron is my boss. Squashing the ignorance of religious dogma is my way of doing so.


Squashing will do nothing to those that 'believe' and do not question. You further galvinize their position, it's basic psycology. Look at the political spectrum in america say since clinton got in office to present. It's an us v. them mentality. Each side was galvinized, creating pressure on the middle, even won converts on each 'side' with the media being a tool.

I just let people be, as long as there is 'no harm', for me there is 'no foul'.


Just as by it's obsession an ant does it's job in the world, as do i.

[freak6]

I just let people be, as long as there is 'no harm', for me there is 'no foul'.


No harm???

Stem Cell research. Evolution "debate". Our planets enviroment. American Ignorance. Wars. Violence.

If you just let people be, you are not making the world a better place. Letting them wallow in thier ignorance and to be manipulated by the media is not making the world a better place. By waking people up to the facts, you make the world a better place. I have been changing peoples minds and making a difference, you can't give up on people just because they say they believe. If you fight the ignorance of dogmatic religion, and stop the teaching of its lies to our youth, they will grow up openminded, objective, and free to make the right choices.

Just look at the demographic that elected this stupid fk.

If only people would drop thier bibles and study ancient philosophy

[alkemical]

No harm???

Stem Cell research. Evolution "debate". Our planets enviroment. American Ignorance. Wars. Violence.

If you just let people be, you are not making the world a better place. Letting them wallow in thier ignorance and to be manipulated by the media is not making the world a better place. By waking people up to the facts, you make the world a better place. I have been changing peoples minds and making a difference, you can't give up on people just because they say they believe. If you fight the ignorance of dogmatic religion, and stop the teaching of its lies to our youth, they will grow up openminded, objective, and free to make the right choices.

Just look at the demographic that elected this stupid fk.

If only people would drop thier bibles and study ancient philosophy


Who said he was 'elected'????


there are other ways to wake people up - I am working on a book, and i plan to release it for free on the internet - a direct injection into the physical/tangible consciousness of the world.....

[freak6]

Giants???http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13338629

[alkemical]

Did you see the links to the actual research on giants i posted yesterday?

[epicSocialism4tw]

Because they likely want to blow up thier neighbor that thinks differently than them. How long have Jews been being killed? The Aztecs sacrificing? Muslims killed? Hindus? Buddhists? Catholics vs Protestants? Christians vs Muslims? Christians vs Native Americans, Pacific Islanders? Romans vs everyone? How many lives have been lost? Countless. How much longer will it continue? Until we squash religion.


Wow. There's someone who doesnt like the constitution.

Communism, anyone?

For someone who seems completely perturbed by competing philosophies, you sure do like to squash people for what they believe.

Also, the deduction that you've made that religion is somehow the lone cause for opposition is baseless at best, and proves how little you understand the complexities of social dynamics. Maybe you should martyr yourself and drink some hemlock.

[freak6]

Wow. There's someone who doesnt like the constitution.

Communism, anyone?

For someone who seems completely perturbed by competing philosophies, you sure do like to squash people for what they believe.

Also, the deduction that you've made that religion is somehow the lone cause for opposition is baseless at best, and proves how little you understand the complexities of social dynamics. Maybe you should martyr yourself and drink some hemlock.

Where did I say I want communism? Socialist values are something Jesus shared, but what would a hypocritic bible thumping republican know about that.

Where did I say I want to squash people? I want to rid the world of a virus in our culture that leads to ignorance, death, and has stunted our ability to grow through science or basic philosophy (stem cells, Copernicus, global warming, greed),

Did I say religion is the lone cause of opposition? No, but it has poisoned our species for far to long. The fact that fundamentalism is on the rise in the United States in the year 2006 is so absurd it seriously makes me wish that Lincoln had allowed the south to secede at times.

Anytime you want to debate the effects of religion on our species...lmao

Maybe you want to debate the christian god!!! ha haa.

I know you don't want to talk about moron.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Where did I say I want communism? Socialist values are something Jesus shared, but what would a hypocritic bible thumping republican know about that.
Where did I say I want to squash people? I want to rid the world of a virus in our culture that leads to ignorance, death, and has stunted our ability to grow through science or basic philosophy (stem cells, Copernicus, global warming, greed),
Did I say religion is the lone cause of opposition? No, but it has poisoned our species for far to long. The fact that fundamentalism is on the rise in the United States in the year 2006 is so absurd it seriously makes me wish that Lincoln had allowed the south to secede at times.
Anytime you want to debate the effects of religion on our species...lmao
Maybe you want to debate the christian god!!! ha haa.
I know you don't want to talk about moron.

What's really humorous here is that you think that your idea of a "religionless society" is somehow a new idea, or one that hasnt been tried before.

What's even more humorous is that you yourself embody exactly the kind of attitude that you are arguing against. "Squash" religion for good? How? By killing them all off? I can guarantee you that the religious will not go away. The philosophies of religion appeal to the masses. How are you going to convince experienced Muslims that humanism is the appropriate philosophy when it doesnt address their god with anything but belittlement?

[freak6]

What's really humorous here is that you think that your idea of a "religionless society" is somehow a new idea, or one that hasnt been tried before.

What's even more humorous is that you yourself embody exactly the kind of attitude that you are arguing against. "Squash" religion for good? How? By killing them all off? I can guarantee you that the religious will not go away. The philosophies of religion appeal to the masses. How are you going to convince experienced Muslims that humanism is the appropriate philosophy when it doesnt address their god with anything but belittlement?

Where did I say it was a new idea?

Where did say kill anyone off? You squash ignorance and religion by teaching the facts and spreading knowledge. Of course you can't "convert" everyone to see the light, and give up thier fantasies of supernatural beings that created a universe so vast it is incomprehendible, yet give a fk about whether or not Randall Cunningham can put up 3 pts in OT to make it to SB 33. Randall Cunningham is lost. But his CHILDREN are not. Those are the ones that need to be taught the truth. That is why the Kansas State "misinformation" Board fights to keep the kids dumb.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13340672/

Another example of the religious bastards trying to stop science, education, and understanding because they know it has already crushed thier myths, thier only hope is keeping the comman man ignorant by controlling what they are taught in school from an early age.

[freak6]

The church condemned Galileo Galilei in the 17th century for supporting Nicolaus Copernicus' discovery that the earth revolved around the sun. Church teaching at the time placed Earth at the center of the universe. But in 1992, Pope John Paul II issued a declaration saying the church's denunciation of Galileo was an error resulting from "tragic mutual <font size =20><B>incomprehension."

[freak6]

Llama - everything positive you get out of religion you can also get from studying philosophy. Philosophy does not state rules, or gods, or lies. Philosophy is the study for truth and understanding. It does not include the negative aspects that come from a dogmatic religion which has pitted the fundamentalist muslims against the world in a pointless bloodbath.

"Don't these talking monkeys know that eden has enough to go round?" - Maynard

[alkemical]

Philosophy does not give hope though.

[freak6]

Philosophy does not give hope though.

Hope of an afterlife, it does not. Hope for humanity it does, if followed. That is why I feel that religion is for the weak, as in people unable to come to terms with the fact we are merely animals randomly "lucky" enough to have evolved a conscience on this planet, that die, and go away. Making the choice we make today all the more important, and what we pass on to our children that much much more important. Again, squash religion as it has stunted our growth as a species for far to long. Accept the basic tenets of philosophy.

"The one remaining area that religion can now lay claim to is the origin of the universe," Hawking said, "but even here, science is making progress and should soon provide a definitive answer to how the universe began."

[alkemical]

Hope of an afterlife, it does not. Hope for humanity it does, if followed. That is why I feel that religion is for the weak, as in people unable to come to terms with the fact we are merely animals randomly "lucky" enough to have evolved a conscience on this planet, that die, and go away. Making the choice we make today all the more important, and what we pass on to our children that much much more important. Again, squash religion as it has stunted our growth as a species for far to long. Accept the basic tenets of philosophy.

"The one remaining area that religion can now lay claim to is the origin of the universe," Hawking said, "but even here, science is making progress and should soon provide a definitive answer to how the universe began."


No, i wasn't mean hope of an afterlife - i mean hope in general. That things will be better, that 'karma' will right the wrongs of someone, etc - There's alot more than you think - and to be honest, i don't want to deal with people that have no hope. If there is no hope, there is no use to try to even make an effort to make anything better.



No matter what science finds, 10 years later there's something new to add or debunk it.

heh not to mention, maybe prometheus is our 'god' after all....

[epicSocialism4tw]

Hope of an afterlife, it does not. Hope for humanity it does, if followed. That is why I feel that religion is for the weak, as in people unable to come to terms with the fact we are merely animals randomly "lucky" enough to have evolved a conscience on this planet, that die, and go away. Making the choice we make today all the more important, and what we pass on to our children that much much more important. Again, squash religion as it has stunted our growth as a species for far to long. Accept the basic tenets of philosophy.
"The one remaining area that religion can now lay claim to is the origin of the universe," Hawking said, "but even here, science is making progress and should soon provide a definitive answer to how the universe began."

It will tell you mechanisms, but it will not tell you purpose. Humans want purpose. If the question "why?" is asked by every human in existence, and part of the consciousness of man since untraceable time, then shouldnt it be considered a physiologically important question? Science is unable to answer the "why" question. The "why" question is important to humans, and is different than the "how" question. "Why?" infers purpose, "How?" infers causality.

Philosophy is not limited to secular humanism. There are a multitude of degrees to which philosophy is bent, and there is not one that is discernably more "true" than Christianity. Heck, the great philosphers disagree on what truth is or if it even exists at all. To say that secular humanism (which seems to be your favorite) is somehow more true than Christianity is preposterous.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Hope of an afterlife, it does not. Hope for humanity it does, if followed. That is why I feel that religion is for the weak, as in people unable to come to terms with the fact we are merely animals randomly "lucky" enough to have evolved a conscience on this planet, that die, and go away. Making the choice we make today all the more important, and what we pass on to our children that much much more important. Again, squash religion as it has stunted our growth as a species for far to long. Accept the basic tenets of philosophy.

"The one remaining area that religion can now lay claim to is the origin of the universe," Hawking said, "but even here, science is making progress and should soon provide a definitive answer to how the universe began."

I think that your understanding of what spiritual philosophies provide for individuals is wrong. In my religion, an important understanding involves the disobedience to self for the purpose of obeying the good laws of the universe. Temperance and wisdom. In other words, you become a better person knowing full well that you are nothing in the grand scheme.

[freak6]

1. To say that secular humanism (which seems to be your favorite) is somehow more true than Christianity is preposterous.

2. In other words, you become a better person knowing full well that you are nothing in the grand scheme.

1. Christianity claims its answers to the origin of the universe, our planet, and mankind are correct, even though they were are merely legends and myths written by men. They are not true at all, and have been proven to be completely wrong.

Secular Humanism? That's a vague label, I propose that religious teachings should be scrubbed of the myths, and taken for what they are good for, which is NOT science for factual information. You can keep the myths for teaching purposes of course, but they should not be taken literally, and more importantly, should not be taught as history. What I would do is replace all religions with the study of philosophy, incorporating the good ideas of the religions, for example the Hindu teachings are outstanding areas to study and explore given the amount of time needed. The old testament myths are repetitive, dogmatic, and completely paint a picture of a god more inconsistent than a leaf in the wind.

2. There is nothing wrong with that, what I have a problem with is dogmatic religions that impose thier rules on thier clergy.

[freak6]

No, i wasn't mean hope of an afterlife - i mean hope in general. That things will be better.

No matter what science finds, 10 years later there's something new to add or debunk it.

Philosophy does give hope. Imagine Socrates witnessing the gladiators killing eachother, his teachings gave hope to people that it would stop, that they could create a state that took care of the poor.

Even in this day in age, studying philosophy does give hope, in that by me studying and reading the teachings of great philosophers, it gives me hope that one day man will adopt these values, and we can overcome our current inability to fight eachother over wealth. Philosophy can make one an optimistic person easily.

As far as things being debunked 10 years later, that isn't true at all. Theories get added too, changed, but for someone who is using the internet right now you sure do enjoy the fruits of science no?

[DB-Freak]

LOL Yeah I bet freak15 will be "shipwrecked" any minute now.

Only the simple minded would take that quote word for word.

[alkemical]

Philosophy does give hope. Imagine Socrates witnessing the gladiators killing eachother, his teachings gave hope to people that it would stop, that they could create a state that took care of the poor.

Even in this day in age, studying philosophy does give hope, in that by me studying and reading the teachings of great philosophers, it gives me hope that one day man will adopt these values, and we can overcome our current inability to fight eachother over wealth. Philosophy can make one an optimistic person easily.

As far as things being debunked 10 years later, that isn't true at all. Theories get added too, changed, but for someone who is using the internet right now you sure do enjoy the fruits of science no?


Really? I'm sure i can list far more things in science that have changed in 10yrs than have probably remained constant.


Your definition of philosophy, is you use philosphy as religion... ;)

[freak6]

Really? I'm sure i can list far more things in science that have changed in 10yrs than have probably remained constant.

Your definition of philosophy, is you use philosphy as religion... ;)

lmfao, start your list and you'll see you are wrong. Philosophy isn't a religion though, but it should be studied religiously!!!

[alkemical]

lmfao, start your list and you'll see you are wrong. Philosophy isn't a religion though, but it should be studied religiously!!!


Sure it is. You are using philosophy to prove the same things different religions do, and your views are the same in alot of respects to how fundamentalists quantify their religion as the end all be all. It's the same 'principle'.

Robert Anton Wilson - often has a statement he reiterates about how the human mind works. "The thinker thinks, the prover proves". So if you "Believe" that 'god' doesn't exist, you will prove he doesn't. The Vice-Versa principle applies absolutley to this as well. You design your own perception of reality and then prove THAT is how the world works. (I am paranoid of the gov't and thus, i find news stories that show THIS is a reality that the gov't IS after us.)


Really, i mean i gave you examples of the 3rd dimension, floating in a 5th dimension - the USAF/Nasa working on hyperdimensional engines - the constant advacement of science related to nano technology - the principles of physics have never been set in stone - Science is just as predisposed to those of religous doctrine to Ego.

A quick and brief example(s): Scientists who have set out to prove ESP is false, have proved it is false. Yet scientists who set out to prove ESP exists, find evidence that it does infact exist.

Why does the moon effect human behaviour? Is it really mystical, is it the symbology that effects us? Or is it the fact that our composition is what, 90%+ water? If the moon has effect on the tide, would it not have an effect on us?

[freak6]

It's the same 'principle'.

Or is it the fact that our composition is what, 90%+ water? If the moon has effect on the tide, would it not have an effect on us?

The principle does not apply to what I am saying because I do not claim to know the answer to the ultimate question?

But religion does. Religion claims facts and history that have been proven wrong, therefore they should be dismissed as myths, stories, and allegories to be taken as nothing more than fables.

I think philosophy should be required in elementary through HS, but that doesn't make it it a religion. And I don't claim Philosophy as a religion, its the objective study of our lives, our world, and what we are doing here.

What do you learn from Soddom and Gammorah?http://www.slate.com/id/2141712/entry/2141827/

That Genesis and the following stories are poorly written looks into the mind of an imaginery deity.

[freak6]

Does the moon have an effect on us? Sounds like an interesting psychological experiment.

[alkemical]

The principle does not apply to what I am saying because I do not claim to know the answer to the ultimate question?

But religion does. Religion claims facts and history that have been proven wrong, therefore they should be dismissed as myths, stories, and allegories to be taken as nothing more than fables.

I think philosophy should be required in elementary through HS, but that doesn't make it it a religion. And I don't claim Philosophy as a religion, its the objective study of our lives, our world, and what we are doing here.

What do you learn from Soddom and Gammorah?http://www.slate.com/id/2141712/entry/2141827/

That Genesis and the following stories are poorly written looks into the mind of an imaginery deity.



Since you obviously cannot objectivly read any religious text and gather the nuggets out of it, or do not have the knowledge of items that are written with a double pen, or realize that different religions are different philosophies to try to get people to think and explain what is going on - is no different than a philosphy that explains it all.

With soddom and gommorah - one is/can be taken as a morality tale, the other is that aliens were unhappy with how their pets acted and 'nuked' them all (since they turn into salt/ash) - Or the reminants of materialism/ego multipled by 'need it now' types of living - the only thing that will remain of such a society is the salt of the earth that it was built on. Since such cities would undoubly devour itself at such a rate - it would appear to self combust, that only ashes would remain.


Maybe the tower of bable, can be applied to the internet - when all/many peoples are effectivly able to communciate on such a scale - what would happen if someone took it down and scattered us to the wind again?

[freak6]

Since you obviously cannot objectivly read any religious text and gather the nuggets out of it,

I read religious texts objectively, objectivity gives me my reason for rejecting false statements about history. I read the Dalai Llama almost daily, and I get plenty out of it. How foolish it would be to read something that you are not even going to even consider? What a waste of time.

Do you think Jesus was an alien?

It's the only rational explanation for his and every other "miracle".

I would never rule it out.

[alkemical]

I read religious texts objectively, objectivity gives me my reason for rejecting false statements about history. I read the Dalai Llama almost daily, and I get plenty out of it. How foolish it would be to read something that you are not even going to even consider? What a waste of time.

Do you think Jesus was an alien?

It's the only rational explanation for his and every other "miracle".

I would never rule it out.

Could be, or he could have fully been an avatara - and knew how to manipulate the world around him to some extent. Just like i do not believe Job was really swallowed by a whale - but has a whole other issue in point of the story.

By looking to disprove god, you are only going to find there is no god. Yet one who can believe in aliens, where there is no more proof of them than say....god.

When i was about 10, i figured out how to build reality tunnels - and believe that anything is possible. One of Amesj523's 'pillars' if you will is that - if enough people believe it, does it come true?

[freak6]

By looking to disprove god, you are only going to find there is no god. Yet one who can believe in aliens, where there is no more proof of them than say....god.

When i was about 10, i figured out how to build reality tunnels - and believe that anything is possible. One of Amesj523's 'pillars' if you will is that - if enough people believe it, does it come true?
Microbe evidence on Mars. I wouldn't be suprised to find life under the frozen crust of Europa. The vastness of our Universe virtually guarantees alien life.
We are evidence of life on planets, with the amount of planets found going up every day, and the number of stars, in the number of galaxies...that gives you nearly infinite areas for existence of ETs. Rosetta Stone is playing now, haa. Anyway, one cannot even say where a god would exist if there was one. Two different realms for "belief".

Your pillar has an answer, it is no. Even if everybody believed that John Elway was really a cyborg controlled by a blind talking bunny rabbit tripping mushrooms inside of his robotic torso, it wouldn't make it so. It would to be true to everyone, but not in reality. This brainwashing so to speak has been done before, witness the neocons.

[alkemical]

Microbe evidence on Mars. I wouldn't be suprised to find life under the frozen crust of Europa. The vastness of our Universe virtually guarantees alien life.
We are evidence of life on planets, with the amount of planets found going up every day, and the number of stars, in the number of galaxies...that gives you nearly infinite areas for existence of ETs. Rosetta Stone is playing now, haa. Anyway, one cannot even say where a god would exist if there was one. Two different realms for "belief".

Your pillar has an answer, it is no. Even if everybody believed that John Elway was really a cyborg controlled by a blind talking bunny rabbit tripping mushrooms inside of his robotic torso, it wouldn't make it so. It would to be true to everyone, but not in reality. This brainwashing so to speak has been done before, witness the neocons.




Ahh, but say you get enough people to focus on changing the path of a hurricane - and by some 'miracle' it shifts course and weakens - causing far less damange than what was intended - then people would Alter the 'physical' reality (which doesn't really exist anyway, it's just our perception that it does).

Again, by your statement - you have defeated yourself already. The thinker thinks, and the prover proves. So by already coming to the conclusion that "if everyone thinks this way, it doesn't make it real" - it won't because you have already set yourself to prove it won't.


HP Lovecraft had this down when he created the Chtulu Mythos. As well did Douglass Adams when he wrong "the dark tea time of the soul". As did the legend of Merlin in aurtherian legend.

If enough people believe it, it is true - and since reality is in the eye of the beholder, nothing else is needed to understand this truth. I mean 10 people see an event happen, and for the most part - you get 10 different stories.



You should take 1hr today and focus, visualize and concentrate on finding a quarter while walking around. See how long it takes to find a quarter. Now see how long it takes to find a second quarter.....

[freak6]

Of course to the believer it seems as if it is real, but only in thier minds eye is it real. An insane man that truly thinks he is the messiah reborn Jesus Christ really is to himself, but in reality he is just crazy. That was a bad example lol, how about an insane man that thinks he is a bottle of ketchup.

An even better example is a group of people convinced that the world is going to end. They kill themselves first, and die, yet the world goes on despite thier belief in the otherwise. If the entire human race did this, would the world come to an end. For them it would...

This could lead back to the tree in the forest falling.

[phisig150]

lmfao, start your list and you'll see you are wrong. Philosophy isn't a religion though, but it should be studied religiously!!!

Actually you're kind of wrong imo. Philosophy in my definition is just something that can't be proven at the time. Many aspects of science today at one time were a part of the overall philospohical cannon. Some tings can never be proven with certainity and will always be considered philosophical. There are no absolute truth except we exsist and vodka tonic with a lime wedge is the perfect summer drink.

[alkemical]

Of course to the believer it seems as if it is real, but only in thier minds eye is it real. An insane man that truly thinks he is the messiah reborn Jesus Christ really is to himself, but in reality he is just crazy. That was a bad example lol, how about an insane man that thinks he is a bottle of ketchup.

An even better example is a group of people convinced that the world is going to end. They kill themselves first, and die, yet the world goes on despite thier belief in the otherwise. If the entire human race did this, would the world come to an end. For them it would...

This could lead back to the tree in the forest falling.


Do my expiriment listed for two weeks - then come back and discuss further. All the 'theory' in the world won't help you unless you apply it.

Until you yourself can break free of your own reality, and view it through someone else's headspace - you won't ever realize that everyone has the true religion, real world.

You can't define reality, because noone has the same reality - except those that share the same indoctrined PHILOSOPHY.

[BroncoInferno]

that's a cop out to say the burden of proof is on someone to say something exists, the same burden proves to disprove something as well.

That's faulty logic. If I tell you that an invisible dancing monkey vomited out everything that exists, the burden of proof is certainly on me to supply evidence. By your logic, I can just make up any random thing and you won't be able to prove it does not exist. That's ridiculous. In debating, it is up to the person making a claim to supply evidence, not the person who denies the claim.

[BroncoInferno]

It's also irrational, IMHO, to disbelieve in something with no evidence that it doesn't exist.

So, it would be irrational for me to disbelieve that an invisible dancing monkey vomited out everything in existence since I have no proof to the contrary? C'mon.

[alkemical]

That's faulty logic. If I tell you that an invisible dancing monkey vomited out everything that exists, the burden of proof is certainly on me to supply evidence. By your logic, I can just make up any random thing and you won't be able to prove it does not exist. That's ridiculous. In debating, it is up to the person making a claim to supply evidence, not the person who denies the claim.

Denying a claim, is making a claim.

[BroncoInferno]

Denying a claim, is making a claim.

No, it isn't.

Do you seriously give any kind of claim equal validity, regardless of the nature of the claim? Maybe the ranting nut on the street corner is the second coming of Christ? Maybe the invisible dancing monkey did vomit out everything in existence? I mean, afterall, I can't prove these things aren't true. C'mon. That is not how debating works.

[alkemical]

No, it isn't.

Do you seriously give any kind of claim equal validity, regardless of the nature of the claim? Maybe the ranting nut on the street corner is the second coming of Christ? Maybe the invisible dancing monkey did vomit out everything in existence? I mean, afterall, I can't prove these things aren't true. C'mon. That is not how debating works.


Yes it is -

elseif - i'd just be debating myself....

[BroncoInferno]

Yes it is -

elseif - i'd just be debating myself....

So, then you think it's possible that the invisible dancing monkey vomited out everything in existence since there is no proof to the contrary?

[alkemical]

So, then you think it's possible that the invisible dancing monkey vomited out everything in existence since there is no proof to the contrary?


I am open to the possiblity.

If you *Deny a claim. You have to have some 'proof' to refute that do you not? Or is just blanket denial enough proof for debate.

I hope you see what i mean.

IMO, for me - i have to get into the 'headspace'/'reality' of the opposing view point. By only then, 'seeing'/'believing' that point of view, do I only really come to understand it.

That's why all religions are the one true religion. In that 'reality tunnel' that person exists in, it is 'truth'.

[alkemical]

Read LABF's posts and come to understand and believe him, then go read Wag's post and come to understand and believe him. I would use Mock's, but you may get lost... ;)

Like on coast to coast am - this guy called up saying that the devil causes brain tumors and car accidents - and if it weren't for the devil, we'd live to be 100yrs old or live forever. I'd love to hear the paradox to this in regards to the 'christian heaven'..... Now to me, i can't 'believe' it as how i'd apply it to live my life - but i can understand how his world is setup by dogma and the foundation for every question's answer is God or Satan. None-the-less that God created satan, but that's another issue.

[BroncoInferno]

If you *Deny a claim. You have to have some 'proof' to refute that do you not? Or is just blanket denial enough proof for debate.


Actually, in the lack of existence, there is a measure of proof in denying the claim. If one is trying to prove that something is not there, the void provides powerful evidence.

[alkemical]

Actually, in the lack of existence, there is a measure of proof in denying. If something is not there, the void provides powerful evidence.


In the lack of existence by... today's scienctific standards?

I can look at DNA and see god, or i can look at how the whole ecology of the earth is organized and see god. Granted i'm more of a 'diest' in my overall views. For me, the proof of how everything is interconnected shows some sort of overall design, in which evolution is also just as relevant.

Now again, to YOU there is no proof - but if I deny your lack of evidence as to the lack of existence - I"m right where you are standing.... "...as the thinker thinks, the prover proves..."

[epicSocialism4tw]

Read LABF's posts and come to understand and believe him, then go read Wag's post and come to understand and believe him. I would use Mock's, but you may get lost... ;)

Like on coast to coast am - this guy called up saying that the devil causes brain tumors and car accidents - and if it weren't for the devil, we'd live to be 100yrs old or live forever. I'd love to hear the paradox to this in regards to the 'christian heaven'..... Now to me, i can't 'believe' it as how i'd apply it to live my life - but i can understand how his world is setup by dogma and the foundation for every question's answer is God or Satan. None-the-less that God created satan, but that's another issue.

I knew that you listened to Coast to Coast. I used to listen to that to go to sleep until it started giving me nightmares.

[alkemical]

I knew that you listened to Coast to Coast. I used to listen to that to go to sleep until it started giving me nightmares.


I don't really watch TV, so for me that is one of the very few good programs on the radio. I also read the Weekly World News too... ;)