Why does God judge

[baja]

Tell me please why a perfect all knowing God would need to judge us fallible humans and than condemn us to eternal damnation.

Sounds a little harsh to me especially for a God defined as Love.

[smalltowngrll]

Tell me please why a perfect all knowing God would need to judge us fallible humans and than condemn us to eternal damnation.

Sounds a little harsh to me especially for a God defined as Love.

The answer comes from the law that was set. If we break the law, we pay the consequences.....HOWEVER...and a HUGE

HOWEVER

Someone else (who NEVER broke the law) paid the penalty. So, He gave us one simple way out of that judgment! Jesus!

[baja]

The answer comes from the law that was set. If we break the law, we pay the consequences.....HOWEVER...and a HUGE

HOWEVER

Someone else (who NEVER broke the law) paid the penalty. So, He gave us one simple way out of that judgment! Jesus!

If I wanted to control your thoughts and acts for all your life this is what I would teach you at an young age.

[DBruleU]

The world is fallen. It has been that way ever since Adam and Eve screwed it for all of us (Genesis Chapter 3). Because the world is fallen, and we have a sinful nature, we need a savior. Jesus came to earth and did just that. It's not hard to commit your life to him, and accept him as your Lord and Savior. God doesnt look down on us and say, "Gee, I never knew it would be hard for these humans to be sinless." He knew that, and thats why we need him. Without him we are all dead in our sin, but when we accept him, and live for him, all our sins are washed away with the blood he shed for us. Eternal life sounds pretty good.

[baja]

you like the Bible.

Remember the story of the wayward son, he was welcomed back into the fathers house without judgement and when the brothers asked was he forgiven the father replied there was nothing to forgive...

[smalltowngrll]

If I wanted to control your thoughts and acts for all your life this is what I would teach you at an young age.

If I were God, and wanted to control your acts and thoughts, I'd control them completely!!! No room for doubt! I'd force you to do what I wanted if I had that power!

It's my choice to believe and do what I want...I can either choose to believe or not. Doesn't hurt my life here on earth one way or another. Doesn't change my choices much either. Just the way it is!

[baja]

The world is fallen. It has been that way ever since Adam and Eve screwed it for all of us (Genesis Chapter 3). Because the world is fallen, and we have a sinful nature, we need a savior. Jesus came to earth and did just that. It's not hard to commit your life to him, and accept him as your Lord and Savior. God doesnt look down on us and say, "Gee, I never knew it would be hard for these humans to be sinless." He knew that, and thats why we need him. Without him we are all dead in our sin, but when we accept him, and live for him, all our sins are washed away with the blood he shed for us. Eternal life sounds pretty good.

Likely story. What did we fall from? Why do we need a Saviour?

Why does God judge us?

Love does not = judgment.

[baja]

If I were God, and wanted to control your acts and thoughts, I'd control them completely!!! No room for doubt! I'd force you to do what I wanted if I had that power!

It's my choice to believe and do what I want...I can either choose to believe or not. Doesn't hurt my life here on earth one way or another. Doesn't change my choices much either. Just the way it is!

Consider this, maybe a Loving God never did judge us and it was man that came up with the idea as a means of crowd control...

Does eternal damnation sound like a Godly idea...

[smalltowngrll]

Likely story. What did we fall from? Why do we need a Saviour?

Why does God judge us?

Love does not = judgment.

God gave us rules...we broke the rules! We broke the rules Because God gave us a choice!

God wanted a way for us to have a relationship with Him and spend eternity with Him. He sent Jesus to live a perfect life (never broke the law) and die the way a law breaker (sinner) should die. He paid the penalty so we could have eternity with Christ. As the bible says, you ONLY have to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved!

God only allows judgement on those who have not accepted the penalty that was paid (he already received the judgement). I see that as TRUE love! It's the simplest thing in the world!

[DBruleU]

Likely story. What did we fall from? Why do we need a Saviour?

Why does God judge us?

Love does not = judgment.

It doesnt? Does that mean when your child does something wrong, you continue to let him do wrong? Is it not more loving to discipline a child, so that he may grow up to know right from wrong?

Likely story? It was the story. We fell from God. Adam and Eve were with God in the Garden of Eden so to speak. They were close to him. When they disobeyed him, they sepereated themselves from him. Thats what sin does, it seperates us from God. Thats why we need a savior, without one...we have nothing to live for. If you just live for yourself, it will be a pretty empty life.

[smalltowngrll]

Consider this, maybe a Loving God never did judge us and it was man that came up with the idea as a means of crowd control...

Does eternal damnation sound like a Godly idea...

The Godly idea wasn't His. He gave us a free will to choose. WE CHOSE to break the laws! If he wanted to be a Dictator of a God he could have given us no choice in the matter...made us like a bunch of subservient robots that do whatever he wants. But, no, he wanted us to have the choice to love him or not.

So, I choose to love Him and accept Him...you choose to not. It's my choice as well as yours!

[Mile High Shack]

b/c he gave us free will

true love isn't being an automoton just doing whatever is programmed in us

he gave us a set of rules to follow if you will, if we do what he wills, then he will let us spend eternity with him, if not, then you will spend eternity in punishment b/c of your actions, not God's

God gave us free will and the death of his son so we can spend eternity with him, that is a bigger gift than anything

[alkemical]

are you born with a soul or do you earn one though living life?

[smalltowngrll]

are you born with a soul or do you earn one though living life?

Everyone has a soul...

[alkemical]

Everyone has a soul...


I see you missed the question

[Mile High Shack]

are you born with a soul or do you earn one though living life?

born with one, hence why babies automatically go to heaven when they die (or get aborted ;))

[bronco_diesel]

are you born with a soul or do you earn one though living life?

you are born with a soul.

[bronco_diesel]

Tell me please why a perfect all knowing God would need to judge us fallible humans and than condemn us to eternal damnation.

Sounds a little harsh to me especially for a God defined as Love.

why does a good parent enact dicipline on his/her child? is it not for her own good?

when you set the rules as a parent, do you not enforce them?

everyone see's a terrible God - instead of a loving God who has standards, rules - and has provided you redemption.

[bronco_diesel]

Tell me please why a perfect all knowing God would need to judge us fallible humans and than condemn us to eternal damnation.

Sounds a little harsh to me especially for a God defined as Love.

tell me why shouldn't God judge?

there are obvious wrongs in this world. i child molester shouldn't be held accountable? if God loves us, shouldn't those who defile another human be held accountable? God set His standard - can you tell me one of the 10 commandments that is bad judgement on Gods part?

[Rohirrim]

Pundit: The whole of creation is balanced on the back of an enormous turtle. All that exists, he carries on his shell.

Student: What's below the turtle?

Pundit: It's turtles, all the way down.

[alkemical]

Well where's it say that you are born with a soul?

I can't believe in eternal heaven or damnation, it's too rediculous.


Now you want to talk re-incarnation, i'm buying that.

[alkemical]

tell me why shouldn't God judge?

there are obvious wrongs in this world. i child molester shouldn't be held accountable? if God loves us, shouldn't those who defile another human be held accountable? God set His standard - can you tell me one of the 10 commandments that is bad judgement on Gods part?


well since the 10 commandmants exist in the 42 laws of egypt (that were before the commandmetns were *ahem* created) - tell us why societies all had a sort of 'moral' code?

[Taco John]

I feel like I'm back in 1999 at the DPO reading this thread. Baja and Ames with their paws caught in the bees nest...

[bronco_diesel]

Well where's it say that you are born with a soul?

I can't believe in eternal heaven or damnation, it's too rediculous.


Now you want to talk re-incarnation, i'm buying that.

in re-incarnation - is it the actions in this life that determines your body form for the next life?

[bronco_diesel]

well since the 10 commandmants exist in the 42 laws of egypt (that were before the commandmetns were *ahem* created) - tell us why societies all had a sort of 'moral' code?

because we have a God - and He has impressed His law upon our hearts.

[alkemical]

in re-incarnation - is it the actions in this life that determines your body form for the next life?


depends on your belief structure i'd assume.

Since i don't believe the ride ends when i die, and i don't believe in an 'everlasting' truck stop - i don't really question on what you come back as. I'm a little more open ended with my beliefs.

maybe it's not on earth even.....

[Rascal]

Is God really judging if he knows everything?

[alkemical]

because we have a God - and He has impressed His law upon our hearts.


well all civ's have had god.

[alkemical]

Is God really judging if he knows everything?

then you wouldn't have free will.

[alkemical]

I feel like I'm back in 1999 at the DPO reading this thread. Baja and Ames with their paws caught in the bees nest...


who, me?

[Rascal]

then you wouldn't have free will.

You have free will to make the choice, but God already knows what decision you are going to make.

The philosphical discussions are endless.

[alkemical]

You have free will to make the choice, but God already knows what decision you are going to make.

The philosphical discussions are endless.


You wouldn't have free will then, it would have been pre-determined.

[bronco_diesel]

depends on your belief structure i'd assume.

Since i don't believe the ride ends when i die, and i don't believe in an 'everlasting' truck stop - i don't really question on what you come back as. I'm a little more open ended with my beliefs.

maybe it's not on earth even.....

are all belief structures correct?

if it is not on earth - i guess i am asking, is there a level of incarnation you reach based on how this life is lived?

[DBruleU]

You wouldn't have free will then, it would have been pre-determined.

We are pre-destined if thats what you are getting at.

[alkemical]

are all belief structures correct?

if it is not on earth - i guess i am asking, is there a level of incarnation you reach based on how this life is lived?


Depends on your belief structure, hindus have a different view than say.... some buddists

[DBruleU]

Well where's it say that you are born with a soul?

I can't believe in eternal heaven or damnation, it's too rediculous.


Now you want to talk re-incarnation, i'm buying that.

So you are telling me re-incarnation is more believeable than after you die, going to heaven or hell?

Yeah, that makes way more sense...coming back as a roach or cow, rather than spending eternity in heaven or hell.

[bronco_diesel]

Depends on your belief structure, hindus have a different view than say.... some buddists

who is correct?

[alkemical]

We are pre-destined if thats what you are getting at.


yep, and if we are predesitned, then you really have no control or 'free choice'

[alkemical]

who is correct?


Personally i feel that i'm correct. :)

j/k

There is not right or wrong religion IMO. I'm a QBL-ist, and have studied the bible for i'd say close to 10 years, but have studied with krsna's/hindu's, buddists, judism (grandfather), and to me they all have the same underlying fundamental messages that are good.

But all are ultimitley ripe with human interference.

Thus i go my own way and use what i like, and do the best i can do - "do what though whilst to the whole of the law" - A.C.

[alkemical]

So you are telling me re-incarnation is more believeable than after you die, going to heaven or hell?

Yeah, that makes way more sense...coming back as a roach or cow, rather than spending eternity in heaven or hell.


ahh, western minds....

Who says you come back as a roach or cow?

who says you don't come back as another 'person', or another person on another planet?

or maybe you come back as yourself and relive with different circumstances, hence deja vu.

[DBruleU]

ahh, western minds....

Who says you come back as a roach or cow?

who says you don't come back as another 'person', or another person on another planet?

or maybe you come back as yourself and relive with different circumstances, hence deja vu.

I was just using my 'western mind' to make an example of a roach or cow. Sure you could say you can come back as anything.

Now, just cause God has said we are predestined to be of likeness to his son Jesus, doesnt mean we still dont have free choice. He may choose us, but it's still our choice. He could have even chosen you, but you just havent made that choice yet. It is confusing, and as a christian myself its confusing, but thats why God says we dont need to understand his ways, cause we cant.

[RaiderH8r]

Voltaire said, "God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh."

I think there's a lot of truth in that. Take the platypus for example, God was just taking a steaming crap on Darwin. HA HA HA!

[alkemical]

I was just using my 'western mind' to make an example of a roach or cow. Sure you could say you can come back as anything.

Now, just cause God has said we are predestined to be of likeness to his son Jesus, doesnt mean we still dont have free choice. He may choose us, but it's still our choice. He could have even chosen you, but you just havent made that choice yet. It is confusing, and as a christian myself its confusing, but thats why God says we dont need to understand his ways, cause we cant.


It's not confusing, i grew up in a prodestant household, and christianity does not have what i need, nor does muslim, hindu, buddism, etc.

not to mention the way my life turned out, i'm pretty sure the path i'm on is the path i'm on till i recieve further instruction.

[RaiderH8r]

It's not confusing, i grew up in a prodestant household, and christianity does not have what i need, nor does muslim, hindu, buddism, etc.

not to mention the way my life turned out, i'm pretty sure the path i'm on is the path i'm on till i recieve further instruction.
"Send me beer"

Consider yourself further instructed.

[alkemical]

"Send me beer"

Consider yourself further instructed.

I can't do that. Without knowing if you are an alcoholic or not - and if you are - then sending you beer is a violent action and i cannot do that.

[DB-Freak]

Everyone has a soul...

Maybe....Maybe not.

[DB-Freak]

yep, and if we are predesitned, then you really have no control or 'free choice'
In a way, we are predestined.

[DB-Freak]

The question is why is God even relevant?

[Crushaholic]

Now you want to talk re-incarnation, i'm buying that.

No wonder we are over-populated. Everyone just keeps coming back...LOL

[alkemical]

The question is why is God even relevant?


look -- i'm a kabbalist/theurgist - and i feel there is a god - but it's more of a gnostic/eastern philosphy - and i don't live my life to please god. I live my life in accordance to what is 'right'. Is there a book or a code i can tell you on how i live my life. None what-so-ever - the only thing i can tell you is that my holy guardian angel and i have enough chats to keep me in line.

[alkemical]

No wonder we are over-populated. Everyone just keeps coming back...LOL


or 'other beings' have completed their journey and their next step was 'earth'.

[DB-Freak]

Do you really believe that?

Or you just horsing around?

[alkemical]

Do you really believe that?

Or you just horsing around?


I believe in reincarnation yes, but do i have the answers - no.

Just as you can only claim to believe what is right as dictated by a book written and re-written by man.

[DB-Freak]

I believe in reincarnation yes, but do i have the answers - no.

Just as you can only claim to believe what is right as dictated by a book written and re-written by man.
I don't know if when you say "you", you are saying that directly to me or just saying it in general, but..... if you are talking directly to me, then you are wrong. As an ignostic,I don't believe God is relevant or meaningful.

I don't really believe in right or wrong, but they are convenient words to use in the right context to get the message across. I would like to see things from an eye for an eye, balance, and give and take perspectives in general.

Therefore I could give two ****s about the bible.

Not that I think there is anything terribly wrong with it.

[alkemical]

I don't know if when you say "you", you are saying that directly to me or just saying it in general, but..... if you are talking directly to me, then you are wrong. As an ignostic,I don't believe God is relevant or meaningful.

I don't really believe in right or wrong, but they are convenient word use in context to get the message across. I would like to see thing from an eye for an eye, balance, and give and take perspective in general.

Therefore I could give two ****s about the bible.

Not that I think there is terribly wrong with it.


well sorry to infur on you - it's not directly directed at you

[DB-Freak]

Wow that post was full of mistakes.

Thnx for bearing with my poor mastery of english.

I lived in this country my whole damn life and I still can't even write a couple sentences without making mistakes like that.

**** me. How sad.

[Old Dude]

...

Does eternal damnation sound like a Godly idea...

You'd be better off asking a Saints fan about that one.

[Spider]

we are a direct product of Aliens getting thier cosmic groove on with primates ..... or we are the result of an expierment on another planet that went bad ........ take your pick

[DB-Freak]

we are a direct product of Aliens getting thier cosmic groove on with primates .....
How did the aliens impregnate the primates?

[Spider]

How did the aliens impregnate the primates?
mood lighting and plenty of cosmic booze

[baja]

why does a good parent enact dicipline on his/her child? is it not for her own good?

when you set the rules as a parent, do you not enforce them?

everyone see's a terrible God - instead of a loving God who has standards, rules - and has provided you redemption.

So you diminish God to the status of a flawed human parent to explain away the harshest of all punishment. Well I am a parent and I would never be able to pass such a harsh punishment on my children, would you be able to condemn your child to a horrible punishment for eternity, that's a longtime..

[baja]

Pundit: The whole of creation is balanced on the back of an enormous turtle. All that exists, he carries on his shell.

Student: What's below the turtle?

Pundit: It's turtles, all the way down.

That is hilarious Ro.

PS What's below the bottom turtle?

- another turtle ha ha ha

[baja]

I feel like I'm back in 1999 at the DPO reading this thread. Baja and Ames with their paws caught in the bees nest...

Ha ha Ain't it grand.......

[baja]

b/c he gave us free will

true love isn't being an automoton just doing whatever is programmed in us

he gave us a set of rules to follow if you will, if we do what he wills, then he will let us spend eternity with him, if not, then you will spend eternity in punishment b/c of your actions, not God's

God gave us free will and the death of his son so we can spend eternity with him, that is a bigger gift than anything

What's free about will if the choices are judged with eternal bliss or eternal damnation hanging in the balance?

personally if I'm gonna buy into the eternal reward/punishment routine I'n going the 40 virgin route.

[baja]

because we have a God - and He has impressed His law upon our hearts.

Impressed His law upon our hearts....

So either gays and any other hard wired but socially and religiously unacceptable behavior is imprinted from God or His press is broken....

[baja]

No wonder we are over-populated. Everyone just keeps coming back...LOL

Well if that were ture wouldn't the population remain constant

[RunByDesign]

Tell me please why a perfect all knowing God would need to judge us fallible humans and than condemn us to eternal damnation.

Sounds a little harsh to me especially for a God defined as Love.

Because he wants to control our minds!!!

(Or at least the people who invented him do.)

[baja]

How did the aliens impregnate the primates?

Monkey style

[Spider]

If you doubt the Alien - Primate , then explain Roseanne Barr and Rosie ODonnell...........

[gunns]

Disclaimer: These are my beliefs

Satan wanted to control us, make us do right....communistic in sense....that's why he was banished. We were given the right to make choices. God knew we would sin and that was part of the plan. The mistakes we make and the rough roads we experience help make us who we are and if we so choose, help us to grow spiritually. We should not look on them negatively or condemn ourselves but grow and learn from them and forgive ourselves, but not to repeat them. We were put on this earth for a purpose, each of us....some people were put here to help others grow spirtually, mentally retarded people, even drunks, to help our compassion grow. When we die, we will judge ourselves (life flashing before us) to see how our life here on earth may have had a ripple effect on others. What the good deeds did for others, what the bad deeds affects had on others lives. People who commit suicide are now in a state where they experience all of the sorrow they caused by commiting the act. That's why it's important to forgive. The first person you must start with is yourself. And then others, as if you cannot forgive you cannot expect to be forgiven. Everything on earth, I believe, is about growth spiritually and what we do to help others. That's my sermon for the day.

[baja]

If you doubt the Alien - Primate , then explain Roseanne Barr and Rosie ODonnell...........

A monkey fuucked a platypus?

[Spider]

A monkey fuucked a platypus?
LOL

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Free will?

The concept of free will is incompatible with the Judeo-Christian notion of an omnipotent, omniscient God who, according to Judeo-Christian theology, created the world ex nihilo, i.e., out of nothing.

In other words, if God is omnipotent and omniscient, then, by definition, nothing exists and no actions occur independent of His will or foreknowledge.

[sisterhellfyre]

Q: Why does God judge?

A: Cuz He always wanted to wear that long black dress.
Regards,
m.

[baja]

Free will?

The concept of free will is incompatible with the Judeo-Christian notion of an omnipotent, omniscient God who, according to Judeo-Christian theology, created the world ex nihilo, i.e., out of nothing.

In other words, if God is omnipotent and omniscient, then, by definition, nothing exists and no actions occur independent of His will or foreknowledge.

maybe it is all a dream of duality and God sees only truth, Wholeness, Oneness, no separation, no judgment and what we have created is a man thing...

Or,

Nothing real can be threatened.
Nothing unreal exists.
Herein lies the peace of God

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Tell me please why a perfect all knowing God would need to judge us fallible humans and than condemn us to eternal damnation.

Sounds a little harsh to me especially for a God defined as Love.

Yep.

Why would anyone want to embrace such a medieval, shame/guilt-based myth?

Maybe for the same reasons kids in a dysfunctional family are loyal to their authoritarian, drunk, and/or abusive father.

[smalltowngrll]

Free will?

The concept of free will is incompatible with the Judeo-Christian notion of an omnipotent, omniscient God who, according to Judeo-Christian theology, created the world ex nihilo, i.e., out of nothing.

In other words, if God is omnipotent and omniscient, then, by definition, nothing exists and no actions occur independent of His will or foreknowledge.

Unless He so chooses to give us free will! He has the foreknowledge to know what we choose before it happens...but, we still have the freedom to choose it.

It's kind of like watching a parade that spans over three blocks and you are sitting in the middle. The person sitting on block one knows what's coming up, but the person on block two hasn't seen it yet. It's not a very good analogy, but it kind of breaks it down.

[smalltowngrll]

Yep.

Why would anyone want to embrace such a medieval, shame/guilt-based myth?

Maybe for the same reasons kids in a dysfunctional family are loyal to their authoritarian, drunk, and/or abusive father.

You have the freedom to believe it or not. The questions were asked, and we answered! You can either choose to believe it or not. If not...that's your choice! noone is comparing you to a dysfunctional family or any other rediculous comparisons! And, noone is shoving it down your throat, either.

Of all the studying I've done...hard studying. Reading through the bible, seeking if it is all correct, I have not found (and neither has anyone else for that matter) ONE thing that is not scientifically incorrect, historically incorrect or Geographically incorrect. The Bible has been a sound book from start to end and is backed up by historical documents that prove it is as sound today as it was when it was written. There are no other books that have been preserved in truth to it's origination as the Bible. So, with that in mind, I have chosen to belive what the bible says! My Choice, My Beliefs!

If you choose not to, then you choose not to. I'm not going to force it upon anyone that chooses to believe in something else.

[baja]

Unless He so chooses to give us free will! He has the foreknowledge to know what we choose before it happens...but, we still have the freedom to choose it.

It's kind of like watching a parade that spans over three blocks and you are sitting in the middle. The person sitting on block one knows what's coming up, but the person on block two hasn't seen it yet. It's not a very good analogy, but it kind of breaks it down.

When Kennedy was in a prade in Dallas did the guy watching at the beginning of the motorcade know Kennedy would be shot 7 blocks later than.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Unless He so chooses to give us free will! He has the foreknowledge to know what we choose before it happens...but, we still have the freedom to choose it.

Even if you claim that God wills that man exercice free will, all of man's subsequent actions are still the result of God's will, and God is therefore responsible for them (given God's omnipotence, omniscience, and the premise that God created the world ex nihilo.)

[Spider]

I guess the main problem with religion right now , is how you guys followed Bush ,believed and spun everything he said , O'Rielly and his war on christmas , the Terry Schiavo thing , the freaking out of the justice statue exposing a breast , The ID being forced in schools , and I could go on .but you guys let the outside fringe take over and go on a crusade...........Dobson attack on spongebob squarepants , the Catholic Bishop in Colorado Springs condeming everyone that voted Democrat or for Kerry , even refusing comunion , the Gay marriage thing , you all picked these fights , now getting beat down ....... there is an old saying pick and choose your battles ........

[Spider]

And the catholic thing and molesting Kids , then slamming Kerry , go figure , oh well you guys can see where this is going .........

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

noone is comparing you to a dysfunctional family or any other rediculous(sic) comparisons!

Um, no one is comparing me to the above because I'm not the one who embraces the medieval/patriarchal image of God and the attendant guilt-based notions, e.g., original sin, eternal damnation, etc.

Of all the studying I've done...hard studying. Reading through the bible, seeking if it is all correct, I have not found (and neither has anyone else for that matter) ONE thing that is not scientifically incorrect, historically incorrect or Geographically incorrect.

I'll buy that. :giggle:

[smalltowngrll]

When Kennedy was in a prade in Dallas did the guy watching at the beginning of the motorcade know Kennedy would be shot 7 blocks later than.


Obviously you didn't read my disclaimer that it wasn't a very good analogy. It was only a similarity. Obviously the guy watching at the beginning is not God. You are trying to fit a God that created you into a box for you to understand, when he cannot be understood.

[smalltowngrll]

Even if you claim that God wills that man exercice free will, all of man's subsequent actions are still the result of God's will, and God is therefore responsible for them (given God's omnipotence, omniscience, and the premise that God created the world ex nihilo.)

Maybe in the case if you created the world out of nothing. But, no, that is not the case. Otherwise, EVERYONE would believe. If you think outside of your box, you would realize that if God has the ability to create something out of nothing, then he CERTAINLY has the ability to give people TRUE free will. Something our little minds cannot comprehend!

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I guess the main problem with religion right now , is how you guys followed Bush ,believed and spun everything he said , O'Rielly and his war on christmas , the Terry Schiavo thing , the freaking out of the justice statue exposing a breast , The ID being forced in schools , and I could go on .but you guys let the outside fringe take over and go on a crusade...........Dobson attack on spongebob squarepants , the Catholic Bishop in Colorado Springs condeming everyone that voted Democrat or for Kerry , even refusing comunion , the Gay marriage thing , you all picked these fights , now getting beat down ....... there is an old saying pick and choose your battles ........

Good point.

Their blind loyalty to Bush is just as unexamined as their religious beliefs, isn't it?

[smalltowngrll]

I guess the main problem with religion right now , is how you guys followed Bush ,believed and spun everything he said , O'Rielly and his war on christmas , the Terry Schiavo thing , the freaking out of the justice statue exposing a breast , The ID being forced in schools , and I could go on .but you guys let the outside fringe take over and go on a crusade...........Dobson attack on spongebob squarepants , the Catholic Bishop in Colorado Springs condeming everyone that voted Democrat or for Kerry , even refusing comunion , the Gay marriage thing , you all picked these fights , now getting beat down ....... there is an old saying pick and choose your battles ........


Again...the idea of lumping ALL Christians in the same circle is certainly not correct. Not everyone that is a christian thinks the same way, just as not everyone that is any other religion, race, color or other "Group" you choose. It would be like me lumping everyone together that is NOT a christian...you are all just like Manson, Dahmer, or any other serial killer. That would not be correct. Instead, take the time to get to know people rather than taking their beliefs in a certain area and putting them in a "group".

[baja]

Obviously you didn't read my disclaimer that it wasn't a very good analogy. It was only a similarity. Obviously the guy watching at the beginning is not God. You are trying to fit a God that created you into a box for you to understand, when he cannot be understood.

It was your allegory and if God can't be understood how do you know what will punch your ticket to heaven or to hell?

[smalltowngrll]

Um, no one is comparing me to the above because I'm not the one who embraces the medieval/patriarchal image of God and the attendant guilt-based notions, e.g., original sin, eternal damnation, etc.



I'll buy that. :giggle:

Pardon me for a typo...haha...show me your incorrect findings??

I'll restate my above quote for accuracy....I have found absolutely NOTHING that is incorrect geographically, historically or scientifically speaking.

[Spider]

Good point.

Their blind loyalty to Bush is just as unexamined as their religious beliefs, isn't it?
Yep , no matter what Bush did, they took it as gospel , cause Bush told them he was a christian also , No matter what ........They didnt bother to look somthing up , dismissed any counter point of view as Bias bush hating , much like they do thier religion ..........They forced this fight , in society ... now they have it ... to late to sit back and cry they are being picked on

[baja]

How was it known Mary was a virgin?

[Spider]

Again...the idea of lumping ALL Christians in the same circle is certainly not correct. Not everyone that is a christian thinks the same way, just as not everyone that is any other religion, race, color or other "Group" you choose. It would be like me lumping everyone together that is NOT a christian...you are all just like Manson, Dahmer, or any other serial killer. That would not be correct. Instead, take the time to get to know people rather than taking their beliefs in a certain area and putting them in a "group".
Oh Bullshít . you have different sects of religion , but it all boils down to the same thing .......

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Maybe in the case if you created the world out of nothing. But, no, that is not the case. Otherwise, EVERYONE would believe. If you think outside of your box, you would realize that if God has the ability to create something out of nothing, then he CERTAINLY has the ability to give people TRUE free will. Something our little minds cannot comprehend!

As I said earlier, according to Judeo-Christian theology, God created the world out of nothing.

Thus, nothing - including man's alleged freedom to do evil - came into existence independent of God's will (otherwise He would not be omnipotent.)

If you argue that evil came into existence independent of God's will, then God is not omnipotent (given His omnibenevolence.)

Therefore, either God is responsible for evil or He is not omnipotent.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Pardon me for a typo...haha...show me your incorrect findings??

I'll restate my above quote for accuracy....I have found absolutely NOTHING that is incorrect geographically, historically or scientifically speaking.


Um, if you're talking Geography, then the first clue should probably be the fact that the authors of the Bible weren't even aware of the existence of the New World.

[baja]

Not to mention the world was flat then.

[Spider]

I am talking about Religion...... a person can be spiritual without being Religious ........they can believe in God and follow the bible , without getting caught up in the bullshít .........

[smalltowngrll]

It was your allegory and if God can't be understood how do you know what will punch your ticket to heaven or to hell?


I'd rather believe in God than reincarnation. What have I to lose? If I'm right..I continue in heaven...if I'm wrong...what the hell, I become a corkroach (for the reincarnation thinkers) or whatever you may believe?? lol

But, if you are wrong...you spend eternity in Hell....and if you are right...you get to be the corkroach!

Honestly, BF...You asked a question and I gave you honest answers. I did not put you down for the fact that you asked or the fact that you didn't believe the same way as me.

So, why did you ask? Was it because you really wanted to know the answer? Or was it so you could harrass the ones that answer? Because, honestly, I really am not here to go around with you or anyone else. I've maintained all along that I really don't care what you believe. You can be whatever religion or non religion that you want. I'm not going to give you a hard time for it or put you down for it. And, I'd appreciate the same respect in return. However, if you are here for a reason and want to discuss..I'll discuss.

I certainly respect the fact that people have their own opinions in religion and politics. After all, if everyone thought the same...then someone wouldn't be thinking! I for one...use my brain! Apparently so do many folks here!

[smalltowngrll]

Um, if you're talking Geography, then the first clue should probably be the fact that the authors of the Bible weren't even aware of the existence of the New World.


If you read the bible, it talks about the Geography of all of the middle east...there is not one mountain, desert, river or lake that is out of place when it refers to the geography.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I'd rather believe in God than reincarnation.

Lots of people believe in both - it's not an either/or proposition.

[smalltowngrll]

I am talking about Religion...... a person can be spiritual without being Religious ........they can believe in God and follow the bible , without getting caught up in the bullshít .........


Good Statement! I would agree. There are a lot of religious people out there that truly don't know God. They perform the rituals, say thier heartless prayers avoid this and make sure they do things this way or that way and go about their days leaving God out.

[smalltowngrll]

Lots of people believe in both - it's not an either/or proposition.


It becomes an either/or belief if one believes the bible to be true.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Not to mention the world was flat then.

Exactly. :giggle:

None of the authors of the books of the Bible were aware of the existence of the world beyond the near east (let alone the Aztecs or the Chinese.)

[smalltowngrll]

Exactly. :giggle:

None of the authors of the books of the Bible were aware of the existence of the world beyond the near east (let alone the Aztecs or the Chinese.)

Job did! Talks about the world being a sphere.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

It becomes an either/or belief if one believes the bible to be true.

I didn't say anything about the Bible - I said that belief in God and belief in reincarnation were not incompatible.

You can believe in God without believing in Biblical literalism.

[ant1999e]

I guess the main problem with religion right now , is how you guys followed Bush ,believed and spun everything he said , O'Rielly and his war on christmas , the Terry Schiavo thing , the freaking out of the justice statue exposing a breast , The ID being forced in schools , and I could go on .but you guys let the outside fringe take over and go on a crusade...........Dobson attack on spongebob squarepants , the Catholic Bishop in Colorado Springs condeming everyone that voted Democrat or for Kerry , even refusing comunion , the Gay marriage thing , you all picked these fights , now getting beat down ....... there is an old saying pick and choose your battles ........
0
The problem is you and your girlfriend LABF blame everything on bush. You make people want to defend him because your arguments on why it is bushs fault are sometime ridiculous. Even now you turn this topic into "it's bushs fault" thread. It gets rwal old. I can't wait till he is out of office so I can read about something else.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Job did! Talks about the world being a sphere.

Not the same thing as being aware of the New World, the Aztecs, the Chinese, etc.

[Spider]

Good Statement! I would agree. There are a lot of religious people out there that truly don't know God. They perform the rituals, say thier heartless prayers avoid this and make sure they do things this way or that way and go about their days leaving God out.
Those are the ones I blast , Like what was going on at the Air Force acadamy , the catholic church playing hide the pedophile , Pat Robertson , Falwell etc , blamming 9-11 on Americans for letting Gays and abortions and other sinfull ways happen ..........Or O'Reilley and his crusade against the war on Christmas , let me ask you when was the last time someone went apeshít when you told them merry chirstmas ? In alot of towns ,and believe me I get around I still see Navitity scenes all over the place ...........

[gunns]

I guess the main problem with religion right now , is how you guys followed Bush ,believed and spun everything he said , O'Rielly and his war on christmas , the Terry Schiavo thing , the freaking out of the justice statue exposing a breast , The ID being forced in schools , and I could go on .but you guys let the outside fringe take over and go on a crusade...........Dobson attack on spongebob squarepants , the Catholic Bishop in Colorado Springs condeming everyone that voted Democrat or for Kerry , even refusing comunion , the Gay marriage thing , you all picked these fights , now getting beat down ....... there is an old saying pick and choose your battles ........

There are no true religions, all have truths, all have man's opinion, but each has something someone needs to grow spiritually. God didn't make religion the right way to go, man did. And that's why so many make such stupid decisions because they look at the religion first for guidance and it is man made. Bush has made himself important in his own mind, not God's, the Bishop in Colorado Spring expressing his opinion but using his cloak to make believers, those who condemn gays in the name of God yet the gays are God's children......it's an ego thing IMO.

[Spider]

0
The problem is you and your girlfriend LABF blame everything on bush. You make people want to defend him because your arguments on why it is bushs fault are sometime ridiculous. Even now you turn this topic into "it's bushs fault" thread. It gets rwal old. I can't wait till he is out of office so I can read about something else.
every damn thing is Bush's fault , Iraq , outrageous spending , wire taps etc ....... Now you have the option to use ignore also ............Then you can also take some of the blame for voting the Bastard back into office

[Spider]

There are no true religions, all have truths, all have man's opinion, but each has something someone needs to grow spiritually. God didn't make religion the right way to go, man did. And that's why so many make such stupid decisions because they look at the religion first for guidance and it is man made. Bush has made himself important in his own mind, not God's, the Bishop in Colorado Spring expressing his opinion but using his cloak to make believers, those who condemn gays in the name of God yet the gays are God's children......it's an ego thing IMO.
:thumbs:

[ant1999e]

every damn thing is Bush's fault , Iraq , outrageous spending , wire taps etc ....... Now you have the option to use ignore also ............

You forgot global warming, gas prices, your erectile dysfunction and LABF hemmeroids. J/K Don't get mad spider, I'm just giving my opinion. :peace:

[ant1999e]

every damn thing is Bush's fault , Iraq , outrageous spending , wire taps etc ....... Now you have the option to use ignore also ............Then you can also take some of the blame for voting the Bastard back into office

I did vote for Gore in the first election.

[baja]

I'd rather believe in God than reincarnation. What have I to lose? If I'm right..I continue in heaven...if I'm wrong...what the hell, I become a corkroach (for the reincarnation thinkers) or whatever you may believe?? lol

<b>But, if you are wrong...you spend eternity in Hell.... </b>and if you are right...you get to be the corkroach!

Honestly, BF...You asked a question and I gave you honest answers. I did not put you down for the fact that you asked or the fact that you didn't believe the same way as me.

So, why did you ask? Was it because you really wanted to know the answer? Or was it so you could harrass the ones that answer? Because, honestly, I really am not here to go around with you or anyone else. I've maintained all along that I really don't care what you believe. You can be whatever religion or non religion that you want. I'm not going to give you a hard time for it or put you down for it. And, I'd appreciate the same respect in return. However, if you are here for a reason and want to discuss..I'll discuss.

I certainly respect the fact that people have their own opinions in religion and politics. After all, if everyone thought the same...then someone wouldn't be thinking! I for one...use my brain! Apparently so do many folks here!

Like my Jewish friend said while eating in a restaurant, ' Don't eat all that bread that's where they get ya'.

[Spider]

You forgot global warming, gas prices, your erectile dysfunction and LABF hemmeroids. J/K Don't get mad spider, I'm just giving my opinion. :peace:
I am not mad at you , I am pissed @ Bush ......... every choice Bush has made has screwed us in ways we couldnt imagine .......

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

The problem is you and your girlfriend LABF blame everything on bush.

http://img464.imageshack.us/img464/3981/smileybawl8nq.gif

Not at all, c*ck breath.

Criticism of Bush's handling of his job isn't "blaming everything on Bush."


You make people want to defend him because your arguments on why it is bushs fault are sometime ridiculous. Even now you turn this topic into "it's bushs fault" thread. It gets rwal old. I can't wait till he is out of office so I can read about something else.

It only "gets old" for you because you can't handle being confronted with inconvenient facts and unpleasant reality about your guy.

If you don't like hearing the truth about your hero then you should either skip this forum or use your "ignore" feature (although you'll be putting almost everybody on the OM on ignore at this stage of the game.)

[Spider]

I did vote for Gore in the first election.
Gush or Bore . hellva choice ........

[baja]

Nobody has answered the thread topic question yet

Why does God judge?

[ant1999e]

http://img464.imageshack.us/img464/3981/smileybawl8nq.gif

Not at all, c*ck breath.

Criticism of Bush's handling of his job isn't "blaming everything on Bush."



It only "gets old" for you because you can't handle being confronted with inconvenient facts and unpleasant reality about your guy.

If you don't like hearing the truth about your hero then you should either skip this forum or use your "ignore" feature (although you'll be putting almost everybody on the OM on ignore at this stage of the game.)

Nothing wrong with criticism but you do blame him for everything. I can always depend on you to spin every thread into an it's bushs fault discussion. I suppose the b/s with the nfl is somehow his fault also. I wouldn't even think of ignoring you. You make me laugh. I love reading your posts.

[ant1999e]

Gush or Bore . hellva choice ........
Kerry wasn't much better. He had no answers for the situation "mess" we were in. He was just saying what we wanted to hear. Typical politician.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Nothing wrong with criticism but you do blame him for everything.

It's crystal clear that you are unable to discern the difference between "blaming for everything" and "criticism of handling of job."

If I'm wrong, then you should be able to link me to the threads where I blamed Bush for things that had nothing to do with his job as pResident (or qualifications for said job.)

You can't, because, as usual, you are just being a drama queen who likes to exaggerate and distort.

[ant1999e]

It's crystal clear that you are unable to discern the difference between "blaming for everything" and "criticism of handling of job."

If I'm wrong, then you should be able to link me to the threads where I blamed Bush for things that had nothing to do with his job as pResident (or qualifications for said job.)

You can't, because, as usual, you are just being a drama queen who likes to exaggerate and distort.
Me a drama queen. Hilarious! If anyone is a queen here it's you.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Me a drama queen. Hilarious! If anyone is a queen here it's you.

I'm not the one who's sniveling about people being too hard on poor ol' GeeDubya.

[smalltowngrll]

Like my Jewish friend said while eating in a restaurant, ' Don't eat all that bread that's where they get ya'.


But you didn't answer my questions!

[ant1999e]

I'm not the one who's sniveling about people being too hard on poor ol' GeeDubya.

And you constantly snivel about how bush hurt your feelings.:kiss: Like I said I don't love the guy. I can't wait till he is out of office. I'm interested what you will bitch about then.

[Spider]

I have an open mind , I could go into details , but Mormon , Prodestant Catholic, Babtist , Penacostal , Luthren ,etc, all basicly believe the same thing.... Cant even agree on the bible ..............

[ant1999e]

I have an open mind , I could go into details , but Mormon , Prodestant Catholic, Babtist , Penacostal , Luthren ,etc, all basicly believe the same thing.... Cant even agree on the bible ..............
Didn't they all seperate from the catholics? I would think they are pretty much the same. Just took out the thingk the catholics were doing that they didn't like.

[DBruleU]

Nothing wrong with criticism but you do blame him for everything. I can always depend on you to spin every thread into an it's bushs fault discussion. I suppose the b/s with the nfl is somehow his fault also. I wouldn't even think of ignoring you. You make me laugh. I love reading your posts.

See! I'm not the only one who loves reading your crapola every day.

[Spider]

Didn't they all seperate from the catholics? I would think they are pretty much the same. Just took out the thingk the catholics were doing that they didn't like.
Like I said couldnt agree on the bible ......different versions in Bibles .......so who is to say what Bible is right ?

[Spider]

See! I'm not the only one who loves reading your crapola every day.
If I were you I would be brushing up on my American history there Junior ... the Civil war didnt happen in the 1900's kiddo it was from 1861 -1865.. just trying to help

[baja]

Nothing wrong with criticism but you do blame him for everything.<b> I can always depend on you to spin every thread into an it's bushs fault discussion.</b> I suppose the b/s with the nfl is somehow his fault also. I wouldn't even think of ignoring you. You make me laugh. I love reading your posts.

You mean like you hijacking this thread....

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

And you constantly snivel about how bush hurt your feelings.

No.

This is how it works:

I criticize Bush and his handling of his job (or lack thereof) on a "war, politics, and religion" forum, and you whine about it.


Like I said I don't love the guy. I can't wait till he is out of office.

If this is true, then why are you complaining about people being too hard on Bush on a thread that has nothing to do with Bush?

Why are you suggesting, essentially, that there are so few legitimate things for which to criticize Bush that people like Spider and I have to make sh_t up?

You're a walking contradiction.

[DBruleU]

If I were you I would be brushing up on my American history there Junior ... the Civil war didnt happen in the 1900's kiddo it was from 1861 -1865.. just trying to help

Yes I know that. Go back to the thread where I made that comment. I meant 19th century. It's what happens when my fingers are typing faster than my head is thinking...

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

You mean like you hijacking this thread....

Bingo.

[Spider]

Yes I know that. Go back to the thread where I made that comment. I meant 19th century. It's what happens when my fingers are typing faster than my head is thinking...
ifthats your story , stick to it ......oh 1 other difference , Iraqi Civil war is over religion , ours was over tarriffs and the south wanting to become thier own country ....... completely different senarios ......

[baja]

But you didn't answer my questions!

Yes I did

"Like my Jewish friend said while eating in a restaurant, ' Don't eat all that bread that's where they get ya'."

Where "They" get ya is the fear of eternal damnation, that's a heavy hammer, no?

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

See! I'm not the only one who loves reading your crapola every day.

:stupid:

Ditto monkey-to-English Translation:

"I'm not the only one who actually believes that simply labeling inconvenient facts about Bush 'crapola' is the same thing as disconfirming them."

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Where "They" get ya is the fear of eternal damnation, that's a heavy hammer, no?

Yep - and one that's left over from medieval/patriarchal times.

[DBruleU]

ifthats your story , stick to it ......oh 1 other difference , Iraqi Civil war is over religion , ours was over tarriffs and the south wanting to become thier own country ....... completely different senarios ......

hahah I know Spider. Thats why I said in my original post, "This civil war, and our civil war were, and are being faught over completely different reasons"

[ant1999e]

I guess the main problem with religion right now , is how you guys followed Bush ,believed and spun everything he said , O'Rielly and his war on christmas , the Terry Schiavo thing , the freaking out of the justice statue exposing a breast , The ID being forced in schools , and I could go on .but you guys let the outside fringe take over and go on a crusade...........Dobson attack on spongebob squarepants , the Catholic Bishop in Colorado Springs condeming everyone that voted Democrat or for Kerry , even refusing comunion , the Gay marriage thing , you all picked these fights , now getting beat down ....... there is an old saying pick and choose your battles ........

Here is where it was hijacked. (no offense to spider)

[ant1999e]

Bingo.
Isn't that the pot calling the kettle black. You are a master at hijacking. Sometimes I wonder if you aren't Al Queida.

[Spider]

hahah I know Spider. Thats why I said in my original post, "This civil war, and our civil war were, and are being faught over completely different reasons"
just making sure ;D

[baja]

Tell me please why a perfect all knowing God would need to judge us fallible humans and than condemn us to eternal damnation.

Sounds a little harsh to me especially for a God defined as Love.

Anyone???

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Here is where it was hijacked. (no offense to spider)

At least his post still addresses religion and the thread topic.

Yours is nothing but a complaint about people criticizing Bush.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Isn't that the pot calling the kettle black. You are a master at hijacking. Sometimes I wonder if you aren't Al Queida.

Link? Examples?

Just the sort of "I am rubber - you are glue" response we've come to expect from you.

[ant1999e]

Anyone???
Like someone posted earlier, the judgement and damnation factors may be human ideas used to try keep people on the strait and narrow. Where would this world be without religion? I don't know what your getting at if anything but this world needs religion. You have to have something to believe in.

[ant1999e]

Link? Examples?

Just the sort of "I am rubber - you are glue" response we've come to expect from you.
You hijack almost every post. Do you seriously not see that? I won't even try to prove it to you. Theres no point.

[baja]

Like someone posted earlier, the judgementand damnation factors may be human ideas used to try keep people on the strait and narrow. Where would this world be without religion? I don't know what your getting at if anything but this world needs religion. You have to have something to believe in.

What did he say???

[ant1999e]

What did he say???
Should I slow down for you ? I thought you wanted an answer, but I guess you just want to get people upset and start an argument over religion.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

You hijack almost every post. Do you seriously not see that?

You lie, distort, and exaggerate like a motherf_cker.

Do you seriously not see that?

I won't even try to prove it to you. Theres no point.

No point in trying to prove your lies, distortions, and exaggerations (like "you blame Bush for everything.")

At last we agree on something. Ha!

[ant1999e]

You lie, distort, and exaggerate like a motherf_cker.

Do you seriously not see that?



No point in trying to prove your lies, distortions, and exaggerations (like "you blame Bush for everything.")

Ar last we agree on something. Ha!
Do you have a link to back up these accusation you charge me with?

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Do you have a link to back up these accusation you charge me with?

The burden to prove your claims, viz., "you blame Bush for everything" and "you hijack almost every post" is on you - not me.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Do you have a link to back up these accusation you charge me with?

Let's recap:

1) You stumbled into a thread about religion.

2) You hijacked the thread to complain about people criticizing Bush.

3) You were called for the hijack.

4) You tried to flip the script with the "I am rubber - you are glue" tactic.

Pathetic, really. :pity:

[DBruleU]

Anyone???

Just because you haven't gotten the answer you want, doesn't mean no one has answered it. Plenty of people, including myself, have provided you with some good answers. And I cant help but notice, most of us had the same answer to give.

[TheDave]

I'll restate my above quote for accuracy.... have found absolutely NOTHING that is incorrect geographically, historically or scientifically speaking.

Just off the top of my head.....

Creating the Universe in 6 days
creating plants before light
Dinosaurs
All of humanity comming from 2 genetic strands (adam & Eve)
People living 100+ years
Noahs Ark (the entire story)
Jonah and the Whale
evolution (sorry shack had to do it)

[DBruleU]

Just off the top of my head.....

Creating the Universe in 6 days
creating plants before light
Dinosaurs
All of humanity comming from 2 genetic strands (adam & Eve)
People living 100+ years
Noahs Ark (the entire story)
Jonah and the Whale
evolution (sorry shack had to do it)

Being a scientist as yourself...you should really check out some of this guys video's. I have watched all of them, and they are excellent. I know no amount of evidence will make you believe, but it's worth a try. Check him out though, its good for you to know both sides being in the position you're in.

http://drdino.com/

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Just off the top of my head.....

Creating the Universe in 6 days
creating plants before light
Dinosaurs
All of humanity comming from 2 genetic strands (adam & Eve)
People living 100+ years
Noahs Ark (the entire story)
Jonah and the Whale
evolution (sorry shack had to do it)

:giggle: ^5

[TheDave]

Being a scientist as yourself...you should really check out some of this guys video's. I have watched all of them, and they are excellent. I know no amount of evidence will make you believe, but it's worth a try. Check him out though, its good for you to know both sides being in the position you're in.

http://drdino.com/

As i was looking over his articles section i noticed that he is a "Young Earth" Creationist. Sorry DBruleU, but young earth believers are about 1/2 of a notch above people who believe the earth is flat. Anything else i read will be drowed out by a complete lack of credibility... Sorry.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Nothing is less productive than arguing about something that is knowable only through faith with those who excercise no faith. Faith is the expression of experiencial knowledge, something that cannot exist apart from it. The idea that a finite intelligence can discover or comprehend through reason, logic, deduction, etc...that which is infinite in scope...is an excercise in futility.

156 posts in...has anyone changed another's mind?

[enjolras]

I'd be particularly intersted to see his evidence for Noahs flood (in particular I'm looking for anything resembling proof of a word-wide flood).

[enjolras]

People living 100+ years

I beleive that early old testament people where living more like 900 years IIRC.

[DBruleU]

As i was looking over his articles section i noticed that he is a "Young Earth" Creationist. Sorry DBruleU, but young earth believers are about 1/2 of a notch above people who believe the earth is flat. Anything else i read will be drowed out by a complete lack of credibility... Sorry.
I'm not scientist, but I do know this guy doesnt come close to believing the earht is flat. I knew you'd search for something you could knock on his credibility.

Why not swallow your pride just once, and check something out that isnt on your agenda list. You may even get something out of it. The videos are sort of expensive, but I'd be willing to make copies and send you them for free. I'll even pay for shipping costs. You being a scientist should check tem out. He is very respected, and he has been teaching many different scinces for years. Not to mention talked in countless universities all over the world. Just read the bottom of his web page. Step out of your shell once, and check something out that you may disagree with.

[DBruleU]

I'd be particularly intersted to see his evidence for Noahs flood (in particular I'm looking for anything resembling proof of a word-wide flood).

He address' every issue that Dave has a problem with. They are some of the best video's I've come across. You cant argue with the stuff he presents in front of you.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Step out of your shell once, and check something out that you may disagree with.

News flash:

You are the one who is living in a shell - not Dave.

[orangeatheist]

For the love of Pete, please don't be referencing "Dr. Dino" as any sort of authority. It almost makes me want to retch. Seriously.

For more information, visit: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/hovind/

Even other Creationists try to distance themselves from Hovind. The guy seriously is a loon. One of his stock arguments (if you can call it that) is "Were you there?"

[baja]

Just because you haven't gotten the answer you want, doesn't mean no one has answered it. Plenty of people, including myself, have provided you with some good answers. And I cant help but notice, most of us had the same answer to give.

You have not explained <b>Why</b> God judges man.

All I have heard from you is God punishes his children with eternal damnation because they are disobedient an then you compare Him to a parent disciplining a child. Hell is told to be forever.

Why does God need to judge man, why does he need to have us suffer for an eternity?

To what end does that serve?



Aren't we taught God loves us totally and completely, Does he see not see us perfect.

Why does an almighty God need to torture his children?

Can you name me a situation that would cause you to torture your children???


Who benefits most from the collective belief that God will judge each and every one of us and send those lacking to eternal damnation? Dose God benefit or does man benefit by garnishing great control through fear? Could hell be a man made myth?

[orangeatheist]

You have not explained <b>Why</b> God judges man.

All I have heard from you is God punishes his children with eternal damnation because they are disobedient an then you compare Him to a parent disciplining a child. Hell is told to be forever.

Why does God need to judge man, why does he need to have us suffer for an eternity?

To what end does that serve?

Aren't we taught God loves us totally and completely, Does he see not see us perfect.

Why does an almighty God need to torture his children?

Can you name me a situation that would cause you to torture your children???


The question really boils down to (if you want to grant damn near every begged question in the argument):

Why does God use eternal punishment for a finite sin?

[baja]

Nothing is less productive than arguing about something that is knowable only through faith with those who excercise no faith. Faith is the expression of experiencial knowledge, something that cannot exist apart from it. The idea that a finite intelligence can discover or comprehend through reason, logic, deduction, etc...that which is infinite in scope...is an excercise in futility.

<b>156 posts in...has anyone changed another's mind?</b>

Hey all I want is an answer to a simple question, why does an Almighty loving God need his creations to suffer eternal damnation?

I have tried to follow the thread maybe I missed your answer.

[DBruleU]

For the love of Pete, please don't be referencing "Dr. Dino" as any sort of authority. It almost makes me want to retch. Seriously.

For more information, visit: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/hovind/

Even other Creationists try to distance themselves from Hovind. The guy seriously is a loon. One of his stock arguments (if you can call it that) is "Were you there?"
I feel sorry for you atheist. When your days end here on earth, what are you going to say when you are standing before God, and he asks you why you always denied his existence?

[orangeatheist]

I feel sorry for you atheist. When your days end here on earth, what are you going to say when you are standing before God, and he asks you why you always denied his existence?

Well, that's really not a response to my post regarding Kent Hovind but I suppose I will tell God the same thing you will tell him:

"Sorry I didn't believe in you, All Mighty Ahura Mazda. Have mercy on me."

[ant1999e]

Well, that's really not a response to my post regarding Kent Hovind but I suppose I will tell God the same thing you will tell him:

"Sorry I didn't believe in you, All Mighty Ahura Mazda. Have mercy on me."
I'm sure he will.

[baja]

<b>Who benefits most from the collective belief that God will judge each and every one of us and send those lacking to eternal damnation? Dose God benefit or does man benefit by garnishing great control through fear? Could hell be a man made myth?

[DBruleU]

Well, that's really not a response to my post regarding Kent Hovind but I suppose I will tell God the same thing you will tell him:

"Sorry I didn't believe in you, All Mighty Ahura Mazda. Have mercy on me."

I have no response to your Dr. Hovind FAQ crap. It's just a typical site smearing christian scientists, or of the like.

I guess there is no point talking to someone whos as strong an atheist as you. I feel bad for atheists, because when the truth is right in front of them one day, you'll realize your entire life you didn't believe in the one thing that matters most.

[orangeatheist]

I have no response to your Dr. Hovind FAQ crap. It's just a typical site smearing christian scientists, or of the like.

Now wait a minute. You couldn't possibly have taken that entire link in so quickly so I know you haven't even read the material which exposes Hovind as a fraud and a predator of the faithful.

Look. I'll make you a deal. Despite what you write below, I'm actually a nice fellow to have a conversation with. Oddly enough, some of us atheists take time away from eating babies to actually have rational conversations with believers. So, if you want to pick one of Hovind's arguments and present it here, I'd be more than happy to discuss it with you. How about it?


I guess there is no point talking to someone whos as strong an atheist as you.

That would be like me saying I don't see the point in having a conversation with someone who is as strong a theist as you. What does being a theist or an atheist have to do with Hovind's arguments? I mean, if they are truely scientific, they should be fairly objective and open to falsification, right?


I feel bad for atheists, because when the truth is right in front of them one day, you'll realize your entire life you didn't believe in the one thing that matters most.

But, you see, that's how many of us atheists feel about theists. The truth stares them right in the face every day: there is no big, invisible daddy in the sky. Here in Highlands Ranch I noticed that Cherry Hills Community Church is spending millions building a new sanctuary and addition to their older buildings. The place is massive. I just cannot understand how good people can throw money after invisible beings. It astounds me. I feel bad for them because they've convinced themselves of a lie. And, a great many of them will die without ever knowing what a colossal waste of money and time their True Belief cost them.

[TheDave]

I'm not scientist, but I do know this guy doesnt come close to believing the earht is flat. I knew you'd search for something you could knock on his credibility.

Bud, it took my one minute of scanning over his article section. Sorry but the science behind radiometric dating is near flawless... are there some estimations involved? Yes. But these estimations would create the difference between 4.7 and 4.75 billion years. NOT, 4.75 billion and a few thousand. To believe in a "Yong" earth you must throw out almost all of Astronomy, geology, anthropology, lots of chemistry, lots of biology and even some basic math.


Why not swallow your pride just once, and check something out that isnt on your agenda list. You may even get something out of it. The videos are sort of expensive, but I'd be willing to make copies and send you them for free. I'll even pay for shipping costs. You being a scientist should check tem out. He is very respected, and he has been teaching many different scinces for years. Not to mention talked in countless universities all over the world. Just read the bottom of his web page. Step out of your shell once, and check something out that you may disagree with

If someone put together a set of videos proving why 2+2 is not 4 would you need to "Check them out" or would it be much easier and more intelligent to simply discard this person as a quack with his own agenda.


Here is an open commitment i will make with you. If you can find 1 single peer reviewed, published article proving that the earth is only a few thousand years old (the core belief of young earth supporters) I will agree to meet you* and accept copies of these videos...fair enough?

*(i assume you live in Colorado)

[ant1999e]

Who benefits most from the collective belief that God will judge each and every one of us and send those lacking to eternal damnation? Dose God benefit or does man benefit by garnishing great control through fear? Could hell be a man made myth?
Depends on what you believe hell is. The fire and brimestone hell is in my opinion made up. I see your point about control and agree with it somewhat. I think man did use religion to their benefit like most do with power. I know they did. All the doom and gloom that you have spoke about may not be real. Made up to control people. You can see that in the different religions. For the most part they have the same beliefs, but take out or put in what they want. However, this does not mean there is no god. My idea of god is an all forgiving god, as long as you believe in him and are sorry for the sins you committed on earth. Hell is being without god. Empty and lonely.

[ClevelandBronco]

Nothing is less productive than arguing about something that is knowable only through faith with those who excercise no faith. Faith is the expression of experiencial knowledge, something that cannot exist apart from it. The idea that a finite intelligence can discover or comprehend through reason, logic, deduction, etc...that which is infinite in scope...is an excercise in futility.

156 posts in...has anyone changed another's mind?

And in post #158 someone finally says something sensible.

Why does God judge? I don't know. But then He doesn't have to answer to me, now, does He? Man can never know what is the "why" for God.

I don't have much trouble with the fact that He will judge me. Frankly, the more mysterious aspect to me is that He'll judge me, find me guilty and then forgive me.

I'm just lucky to have found a personal friend and advocate in the person of Jesus of Nazareth, when it comes time for me to answer to God.

All fall short. Every one.

[ant1999e]

And in post #158 someone finally says something sensible.

Why does God judge? I don't know. But then He doesn't have to answer to me, now, does He? Man can never know what is the "why" for God.

I don't have much trouble with the fact that He will judge me. Frankly, the more mysterious aspect to me is that He'll judge me, find me guilty and then forgive me.

I'm just lucky to have found a personal friend and advocate in the person of Jesus of Nazareth, when it comes time for me to answer to God.

All fall short. Every one.
Well said.

[DBruleU]

Now wait a minute. You couldn't possibly have taken that entire link in so quickly so I know you haven't even read the material which exposes Hovind as a fraud and a predator of the faithful.

Look. I'll make you a deal. Despite what you write below, I'm actually a nice fellow to have a conversation with. Oddly enough, some of us atheists take time away from eating babies to actually have rational conversations with believers. So, if you want to pick one of Hovind's arguments and present it here, I'd be more than happy to discuss it with you. How about it?



That would be like me saying I don't see the point in having a conversation with someone who is as strong a theist as you. What does being a theist or an atheist have to do with Hovind's arguments? I mean, if they are truely scientific, they should be fairly objective and open to falsification, right?



But, you see, that's how many of us atheists feel about theists. The truth stares them right in the face every day: there is no big, invisible daddy in the sky. Here in Highlands Ranch I noticed that Cherry Hills Community Church is spending millions building a new sanctuary and addition to their older buildings. The place is massive. I just cannot understand how good people can throw money after invisible beings. It astounds me. I feel bad for them because they've convinced themselves of a lie. And, a great many of them will die without ever knowing what a colossal waste of money and time their True Belief cost them.
I never said you werent a good guy. I'm sure you are. I dont hate atheists, nor do I think they are any less human than I.

How do you know there isnt a God? Just because you cant see it doesnt mean it isnt there. Thats why as christians, we are told to walk by faith, not by sight. As Christians we also believe our real treasure is in heaven (As I'm sure you have heard). So for you to say we will die and have wasted all this money wont matter to us. We will be granted the greatest treasure of all.

And what if what we believe is true? What will we have lost? Nothing in my eyes. But you, you dont believe in it at all. You will have lost the chance to know Jesus and be his friend, like I have the joy of having every day. Not to mention eternity in heaven sounds like the best thing to look forward to. You will have lost everything. I will have lost nothing, or gained everything.

[DBruleU]

I'm also not a scientist, nor have I spent any time other than what was required of all of us in HS. So I'm sorry to say I wouldnt be much fun for you to talk with. But hey, I'm a nice guy as well. :D

[baja]

Depends on what you believe hell is. The fire and brimestone hell is in my opinion made up. I see your point about control and agree with it somewhat. I think man did use religion to their benefit like most do with power. I know they did. All the doom and gloom that you have spoke about may not be real. Made up to control people. You can see that in the different religions. For the most part they have the same beliefs, but take out or put in what they want. However, this does not mean there is no god. My idea of god is an all forgiving god, as long as you believe in him and are sorry for the sins you committed on earth. Hell is being without god. Empty and lonely.

Nice post, thanks

i never said I did not believe in a Creative Source because I do. I believe this Creative Source Is Love and this Love knows not the dream reality based on separation we collectively have dreamt up for our enjoyment. He sees us as we really are, perfect eternal Beings that happen to believe in a dream of time and mass.



When Buddha became enlightened why do you think he let out a giant belly laugh

Why did Jesus as at the moment of his death say, Father forgive them for they know not what they do. He did not say for what they do to me but do in life.

Nothing real can be threatened.
Nothing unreal exists.
Herein lies the peace of God.

[clarker]

The question really boils down to (if you want to grant damn near every begged question in the argument):

Why does God use eternal punishment for a finite sin?I don't know, but if I keep my eyes glued to your avatar long enough, I bet I will find out.

[alkemical]

I'd rather believe in God than reincarnation. What have I to lose? If I'm right..I continue in heaven...if I'm wrong...what the hell, I become a corkroach (for the reincarnation thinkers) or whatever you may believe?? lol

But, if you are wrong...you spend eternity in Hell....and if you are right...you get to be the corkroach!

Honestly, BF...You asked a question and I gave you honest answers. I did not put you down for the fact that you asked or the fact that you didn't believe the same way as me.

So, why did you ask? Was it because you really wanted to know the answer? Or was it so you could harrass the ones that answer? Because, honestly, I really am not here to go around with you or anyone else. I've maintained all along that I really don't care what you believe. You can be whatever religion or non religion that you want. I'm not going to give you a hard time for it or put you down for it. And, I'd appreciate the same respect in return. However, if you are here for a reason and want to discuss..I'll discuss.

I certainly respect the fact that people have their own opinions in religion and politics. After all, if everyone thought the same...then someone wouldn't be thinking! I for one...use my brain! Apparently so do many folks here!

So an influence on your religion is fear. You are scared to be wrong and thus choose that way. I am not wrong in my beliefs that there is a god and when we are done with this cycle, we start another. Everything spirals out (galaxy, DNA, our perception of time, etc) , maybe the garden of eden is not some mytholigical place where the tree of knowledge, the tree of life, the tree of good and evil were not 'real' trees. But here on earth, when you reach and live in a state of nirvana, that is heaven, that is the garden. Hell would be the flipside, here on earth and a reprocussion of your actions (karma!!!!!!!) -

It's why i don't buy into a 'right' religion - Hell - god told me so (Humor for you gnostics :) )

[alkemical]

Nobody has answered the thread topic question yet

Why does God judge?

Well baja, from my expierences god doesn't judge. We judge. It's a human condition to judge.

[BroncoInferno]

The answer comes from the law that was set. If we break the law, we pay the consequences.....HOWEVER...and a HUGE

HOWEVER

Someone else (who NEVER broke the law) paid the penalty. So, He gave us one simple way out of that judgment! Jesus!

Seems kind of sadistic...play by my rules or I'll throw you into a fiery pit. Actually, it's more than that...believe I exist without proof and worship me or I'll throw you into a fiery pit. Doesn't sound like a Guy you'd want to have a beer with.

[alkemical]

if science were to prove 'god' exists, would that remove the quotient of 'faith'?

[Falconer]

I cannot answer the question of why God judges any better than the examples that have already been given, so I will just let that question go unanswered by me. I can only answer the question of why I believe in the Christian God. I know that many of you have problems with why we believe the "lie," but for me it comes down to personal experience, faith, and knowledge.

I was not ever a believer in the Christian God as a child, or even as a young adult. I wavered between being an atheist and an agnostic; being more of an agnostic as I became older. I did not receive Christ into my life until after the age of 23. I felt that I did not make a rash decision, but rather investigated every aspect of it as rationally as I could.

I believe that since that time I have seen God work in my life on a number of levels. I have watched my daughter recover from a high fever in less than 10 minutes. My son Samuel had the worst case of hives that I had ever seen, and could not get any sleep, yet as soon as I started praying (and I mean before I even completed my prayer) he became still and slept the rest of the night. I have felt the Holy Spirit come over me in a way that I could not invent in any way. I have seen people healed in ways that defy any common knowledge or skill.

So the question is, what do I get from that "fairy in the sky?" Well for me it is a joyful life. I am a happier, healthier, better person than I could have ever imagined I would be. I guess my "crutch," "societal controller," or "fairy in the sky" has made this all possible. However, what have I given up for it? I guess I have given up a tenth of my gross income for tithes, which has been ever increasing. I have given up more of my income for Joshua, the child I sponsor through Compassion International. There is also the money that I have given over to those individuals I also thought were in need. I guess I should also include the time I have given up to go out in our community and feed those who are less fortunate than us, and the time I have spent ministering to those in less than fortunate circumstances.

All and all I guess my reflection upon the time, energy, and money that I have given up has enabled me to become the person that I am so happy to be. I am not naive enough to believe that any of this will convince any non-believer that Christianity is true, but it is what it is. Each time I look into Samuel's perfectly blue eyes, I see God's love and beauty reflected back to me. The fact that God has turned my worst nightmare into the miracle that I see before me everyday is the crown jewel of my faith.

[DBruleU]

I cannot answer the question of why God judges any better than the examples that have already been given, so I will just let that question go unanswered by me. I can only answer the question of why I believe in the Christian God. I know that many of you have problems with why we believe the "lie," but for me it comes down to personal experience, faith, and knowledge.

I was not ever a believer in the Christian God as a child, or even as a young adult. I wavered between being an atheist and an agnostic; being more of an agnostic as I became older. I did not receive Christ into my life until after the age of 23. I felt that I did not make a rash decision, but rather investigated every aspect of it as rationally as I could.

I believe that since that time I have seen God work in my life on a number of levels. I have watched my daughter recover from a high fever in less than 10 minutes. My son Samuel had the worst case of hives that I had ever seen, and could not get any sleep, yet as soon as I started praying (and I mean before I even completed my prayer) he became still and slept the rest of the night. I have felt the Holy Spirit come over me in a way that I could not invent in any way. I have seen people healed in ways that defy any common knowledge or skill.

So the question is, what do I get from that "fairy in the sky?" Well for me it is a joyful life. I am a happier, healthier, better person than I could have ever imagined I would be. I guess my "crutch," "societal controller," or "fairy in the sky" has made this all possible. However, what have I given up for it? I guess I have given up a tenth of my gross income for tithes, which has been ever increasing. I have given up more of my income for Joshua, the child I sponsor through Compassion International. There is also the money that I have given over to those individuals I also thought were in need. I guess I should also include the time I have given up to go out in our community and feed those who are less fortunate than us, and the time I have spent ministering to those in less than fortunate circumstances.

All and all I guess my reflection upon the time, energy, and money that I have given up has enabled me to become the person that I am so happy to be. I am not naive enough to believe that any of this will convince any non-believer that Christianity is true, but it is what it is. Each time I look into Samuel's perfectly blue eyes, I see God's love and beauty reflected back to me. The fact that God has turned my worst nightmare into the miracle that I see before me everyday is the crown jewel of my faith.


Rep. Thats great.

[orangeatheist]

I never said you werent a good guy. I'm sure you are. I dont hate atheists, nor do I think they are any less human than I.

Well, that's good.


How do you know there isnt a God?

"A" god? Well, there might be something out there you can call a "god". But I strongly oppose belief in Yahweh.


Just because you cant see it doesnt mean it isnt there.

Do you use that same approach for all claimed deities? Ahura Mazda, Zeus, Allah, for example? Or is this "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" only reserved for Yahweh?


Thats why as christians, we are told to walk by faith, not by sight.

I have faith. Just today I employed it. The difference is, my faith is supported by evidence and repeated trials. For example, when I approached an intersection today and the light turned green, I had faith the cross traffic would not run the red light and hit me. The red light itself holds no power to stop oncoming traffic. However, the majority of people driving cars and approaching the red light apply their brakes and stop the movement of their vehicles before they enter the intersection. I have observed this behavior for over 20 years with amazing consistency. I have faith, everytime I approach an intersection with the green light, that drivers in cross traffic who come to the red light will continue to stop their vehicles.

My faith is built upon observable, repeatable evidence. It also does not include unneccessary elements like invisible fairies to help explain actions like cars stopping at red lights. When I have faith that a car will stop at a red light, I don't need to believe as part of that faith that a little invisible fairie ("Just because you cant see it doesnt mean it isnt there.") actually comes down from the signal light and slows cars down right before the crosswalk marking. It just isn't a necessary part of the explanation for why cars stop at red lights consistently enough to help buttress my faith that they will continue to do so when I'm crossing in front of them with the green.

Religious believers are different, however. Given the above analogy, religious believers not only believe cars will come to a stop at a red light, but they also think fairies assist in slowing cars down and that, without the fairies ("Just because you cant see [them] doesnt mean [they aren't] there.") cars wouldn't stop and traffic would decend into chaos. We should thank these invisible fairies at every opportunity lest they cease assisting at intersections.


As Christians we also believe our real treasure is in heaven (As I'm sure you have heard). So for you to say we will die and have wasted all this money wont matter to us. We will be granted the greatest treasure of all.

Unless, of course, there is no treasure. Then, all your billions spent on this belief will have been wasted.


And what if what we believe is true? What will we have lost? Nothing in my eyes. But you, you dont believe in it at all. You will have lost the chance to know Jesus and be his friend, like I have the joy of having every day. Not to mention eternity in heaven sounds like the best thing to look forward to. You will have lost everything. I will have lost nothing, or gained everything.

But you have created a false dilemma. For all you know, there really is a God but he's a god that doesn't like people who follow the Christian faith. Perhaps this god placed the Bible here as a test. But the test was: You go to hell if you fall for it. If you reject it as irrational then this god accepts you into eternal paradise. How do you know the Bible isn't a trap?

Or maybe there's a different kind of god who won't accept you after death. Perhaps the real god is Allah, or Ahura Mazda, or Krishna, or some other deity. Then, even though there is an afterlife, it isn't like the one you expected and you get thrown into eternal damnation. Maybe this kind of god will reject believers like you (because you held a false belief) but accept atheists and agnostics like me because we refused to believe for a variety of rational reasons based upon our limited human understanding.

You don't know you bought the right ticket, DBruleU. You only hope you have. Pascal's Wager was dismantled almost as soon as it was laid down.

[baja]

Well baja, from my expierences god doesn't judge. We judge. It's a human condition to judge.

This is my take too Josh

I think we have a God that loves us unconditionally and this wrath business is unscrupulous power driven men using man's inner knowing that there is a Creative Source to control him through fear.

We are creating this reality not God and people that became enlighten understood that Buddha with his belly laugh and Jesus with his "Forgive them Father for they know not what they do" line as his dying breath.

[orangeatheist]

No offense, Falc. You know I love you and Sam. And, I have no problem with people of faith. I only have trouble with people who think their faith is the only faith and that their god will punish all who do not give this omnipotent being something he wants.

To that end, do you have a problem with a fellow who may argue thus:

I cannot answer the question of why Allah judges any better than the examples that have already been given, so I will just let that question go unanswered by me. I can only answer the question of why I believe in the Muslim God. I know that many of you have problems with why we believe the "lie," but for me it comes down to personal experience, faith, and knowledge.

I was not ever a believer in the Muslim God as a child, or even as a young adult. I wavered between being an atheist and an agnostic; being more of an agnostic as I became older. I did not receive Allah into my life until after the age of 23. I felt that I did not make a rash decision, but rather investigated every aspect of it as rationally as I could.

I believe that since that time I have seen Allah work in my life on a number of levels. I have watched my daughter recover from a high fever in less than 10 minutes. My son Ishmael had the worst case of hives that I had ever seen, and could not get any sleep, yet as soon as I started praying (and I mean before I even completed my prayer) he became still and slept the rest of the night. I have felt Allah come over me in a way that I could not invent in any way. I have seen people healed in ways that defy any common knowledge or skill.

So the question is, what do I get from that "fairy in the sky?" Well for me it is a joyful life. I am a happier, healthier, better person than I could have ever imagined I would be. I guess my "crutch," "societal controller," or "fairy in the sky" has made this all possible. However, what have I given up for it? I guess I have given up a tenth of my gross income for tithes, which has been ever increasing. I have given up more of my income for Ali, the child I sponsor through Muslim Charities. There is also the money that I have given over to those individuals I also thought were in need. I guess I should also include the time I have given up to go out in our community and feed those who are less fortunate than us, and the time I have spent ministering to those in less than fortunate circumstances.

All and all I guess my reflection upon the time, energy, and money that I have given up has enabled me to become the person that I am so happy to be. I am not naive enough to believe that any of this will convince any non-believer that Islam is true, but it is what it is. Each time I look into Ishmael's perfectly brown eyes, I see Allah's love and beauty reflected back to me. The fact that Allah has turned my worst nightmare into the miracle that I see before me everyday is the crown jewel of my faith.

Would this man's faith be any different than your own?

[alkemical]

Well, that's good.



"A" god? Well, there might be something out there you can call a "god". But I strongly oppose belief in Yahweh.



Do you use that same approach for all claimed deities? Ahura Mazda, Zeus, Allah, for example? Or is this "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" only reserved for Yahweh?



I have faith. Just today I employed it. The difference is, my faith is supported by evidence and repeated trials. For example, when I approached an intersection today and the light turned green, I had faith the cross traffic would not run the red light and hit me. The red light itself holds no power to stop oncoming traffic. However, the majority of people driving cars and approaching the red light apply their brakes and stop the movement of their vehicles before they enter the intersection. I have observed this behavior for over 20 years with amazing consistency. I have faith, everytime I approach an intersection with the green light, that drivers in cross traffic who come to the red light will continue to stop their vehicles.

My faith is built upon observable, repeatable evidence. It also does not include unneccessary elements like invisible fairies to help explain actions like cars stopping at red lights. When I have faith that a car will stop at a red light, I don't need to believe as part of that faith that a little invisible fairie ("Just because you cant see it doesnt mean it isnt there.") actually comes down from the signal light and slows cars down right before the crosswalk marking. It just isn't a necessary part of the explanation for why cars stop at red lights consistently enough to help buttress my faith that they will continue to do so when I'm crossing in front of them with the green.

Religious believers are different, however. Given the above analogy, religious believers not only believe cars will come to a stop at a red light, but they also think fairies assist in slowing cars down and that, without the fairies ("Just because you cant see [them] doesnt mean [they aren't] there.") cars wouldn't stop and traffic would decend into chaos. We should thank these invisible fairies at every opportunity lest they cease assisting at intersections.



Unless, of course, there is no treasure. Then, all your billions spent on this belief will have been wasted.



But you have created a false dilemma. For all you know, there really is a God but he's a god that doesn't like people who follow the Christian faith. Perhaps this god placed the Bible here as a test. But the test was: You go to hell if you fall for it. If you reject it as irrational then this god accepts you into eternal paradise. How do you know the Bible isn't a trap?

Or maybe there's a different kind of god who won't accept you after death. Perhaps the real god is Allah, or Ahura Mazda, or Krishna, or some other deity. Then, even though there is an afterlife, it isn't like the one you expected and you get thrown into eternal damnation. Maybe this kind of god will reject believers like you (because you held a false belief) but accept atheists and agnostics like me because we refused to believe for a variety of rational reasons based upon our limited human understanding.

You don't know you bought the right ticket, DBruleU. You only hope you have. Pascal's Wager was dismantled almost as soon as it was laid down.



OA - It was why i choose my own spirtual belief structure - i felt that if there was a god, it wouldn't be under this classification or that - it had to be larger, or even more encompassing - and yet didn't have to be aware of my plight on this earth, anymore than i am aware of what one individual cell in my body is going through at this instant.

It's one reason i love talking with athiests - i view their belief just as importantly as mine. If we didn't have agnostics and athiests nothing would get done on sundays and holidays - :)

[Falconer]

No offense, Falc. You know I love you and Sam. And, I have no problem with people of faith. I only have trouble with people who think their faith is the only faith and that their god will punish all who do not give this omnipotent being something he wants.

To that end, do you have a problem with a fellow who may argue thus:



Would this man's faith be any different than your own?

I do not have a problem with anyone’s faith. It is a personal choice, and something that can only be reconciled on a personal level. I never for a moment believe that my faith is the only faith. However it might disturb people on this board who don't agree with me that Jesus is the only way to God. This I do believe, because he claimed it of himself. I do not seek to impose my belief on others, but I will not dilute my own faith just so it will be palatable for others.

As for any offense that you think you might injure me with, don't worry I will always consider you a friend no matter how much I disagree with the presentation of your signature.
;D

[alkemical]

This is my take too Josh

I think we have a God that loves us unconditionally and this wrath business is unscrupulous power driven men using man's inner knowing that there is a Creative Source to control him through fear.

We are creating this reality not God and people that became enlighten understood that Buddha with his belly laugh and Jesus with his "Forgive them Father for they know not what they do" line as his dying breath.


I gotchya baja -

[BroncoInferno]

And what if what we believe is true? What will we have lost? Nothing in my eyes. But you, you dont believe in it at all. You will have lost the chance to know Jesus and be his friend, like I have the joy of having every day. Not to mention eternity in heaven sounds like the best thing to look forward to. You will have lost everything. I will have lost nothing, or gained everything.

The problem with this argument is that there are literally thousands of faiths, each proclaiming to have the one 'true' path to God or Whoever. What if Hinduism is the correct faith? As I always say, you may be looking at reincarnation as a dung beetle. You are taking no less of a risk than us agnostics and atheists are.

[BroncoInferno]

So you are telling me re-incarnation is more believeable than after you die, going to heaven or hell?

Yeah, that makes way more sense...coming back as a roach or cow, rather than spending eternity in heaven or hell.

If you had been born and raised in, say, India, heaven and hell might sound weird to you.

[bronco_diesel]

Nobody has answered the thread topic question yet

Why does God judge?

no, you just haven't liked the answers

[BroncoInferno]

Pardon me for a typo...haha...show me your incorrect findings??

I'll restate my above quote for accuracy....I have found absolutely NOTHING that is incorrect geographically, historically or scientifically speaking.

Let's see...a race of 10 foot tall giants, people living 930 years, seas parting, staffs turning into snakes, people taken up into the sky in flaming chariots, Earth and all it's inhabitants created in a week...nope, you're right, sounds scientifically accurate to me Ha!

[bronco_diesel]

Just off the top of my head.....

Creating the Universe in 6 days
creating plants before light
Dinosaurs
All of humanity comming from 2 genetic strands (adam & Eve)
People living 100+ years
Noahs Ark (the entire story)
Jonah and the Whale
evolution (sorry shack had to do it)

but you won't even look at the other side of the argument on these, because they come from "young earth" creationists.

is that truly fair?

i am no scientists, but i have researched this enough to know that the idea of a big bang is impossible. i have researched evolution enough to know that it is opinion.

why not check out the evidence the other side is offering up - instead of balking at who they are?

[DBruleU]

but you won't even look at the other side of the argument on these, because they come from "young earth" creationists.

is that truly fair?

i am no scientists, but i have researched this enough to know that the idea of a big bang is impossible. i have researched evolution enough to know that it is opinion.

why not check out the evidence the other side is offering up - instead of balking at who they are?

That's what I'm trying to say. Why not just look at it? Even if it does come from a young earth believer. You may after you see it still believe it's all malarky in your eyes, and thats fine. You choose to believe what you want, and I choose to believe what I want.

[DBruleU]

Well, that's good.



"A" god? Well, there might be something out there you can call a "god". But I strongly oppose belief in Yahweh.



Do you use that same approach for all claimed deities? Ahura Mazda, Zeus, Allah, for example? Or is this "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" only reserved for Yahweh?



I have faith. Just today I employed it. The difference is, my faith is supported by evidence and repeated trials. For example, when I approached an intersection today and the light turned green, I had faith the cross traffic would not run the red light and hit me. The red light itself holds no power to stop oncoming traffic. However, the majority of people driving cars and approaching the red light apply their brakes and stop the movement of their vehicles before they enter the intersection. I have observed this behavior for over 20 years with amazing consistency. I have faith, everytime I approach an intersection with the green light, that drivers in cross traffic who come to the red light will continue to stop their vehicles.

My faith is built upon observable, repeatable evidence. It also does not include unneccessary elements like invisible fairies to help explain actions like cars stopping at red lights. When I have faith that a car will stop at a red light, I don't need to believe as part of that faith that a little invisible fairie ("Just because you cant see it doesnt mean it isnt there.") actually comes down from the signal light and slows cars down right before the crosswalk marking. It just isn't a necessary part of the explanation for why cars stop at red lights consistently enough to help buttress my faith that they will continue to do so when I'm crossing in front of them with the green.

Religious believers are different, however. Given the above analogy, religious believers not only believe cars will come to a stop at a red light, but they also think fairies assist in slowing cars down and that, without the fairies ("Just because you cant see [them] doesnt mean [they aren't] there.") cars wouldn't stop and traffic would decend into chaos. We should thank these invisible fairies at every opportunity lest they cease assisting at intersections.



Unless, of course, there is no treasure. Then, all your billions spent on this belief will have been wasted.



But you have created a false dilemma. For all you know, there really is a God but he's a god that doesn't like people who follow the Christian faith. Perhaps this god placed the Bible here as a test. But the test was: You go to hell if you fall for it. If you reject it as irrational then this god accepts you into eternal paradise. How do you know the Bible isn't a trap?

Or maybe there's a different kind of god who won't accept you after death. Perhaps the real god is Allah, or Ahura Mazda, or Krishna, or some other deity. Then, even though there is an afterlife, it isn't like the one you expected and you get thrown into eternal damnation. Maybe this kind of god will reject believers like you (because you held a false belief) but accept atheists and agnostics like me because we refused to believe for a variety of rational reasons based upon our limited human understanding.

You don't know you bought the right ticket, DBruleU. You only hope you have. Pascal's Wager was dismantled almost as soon as it was laid down.


You and I have completely different belief systems. I have chosen to believe what I have, and you the same.

My "ticket" as you like to call it, is the right one for me. I have chosen to follow a God who wants nothing but the best for me. A God who more than anything else just wants me to love him, and be his friend. It's not about all the things I do for him here on earth, even though serving him is important, but its more about the fellowship I share with him, and the time I devote to knowing who he is, and developing a relationship that will last for eternity.

To me, theres no better thing than that. He is God who has been visible in my life through many hardships, that have always turned out for the better. He protects me day in, and day out, even though I, and everyone else, do not deserve it. He provides for me daily when I dont deserve any of it. In no way do any of us deserve to go to heaven after our time on earth is done (We have all fallen short of the glory of God). But through his love, and his sacrifice of his son to us, we all are able to accept the gift of Jesus Christ, and accept his gift of eternal life with him in heaven. That is the greatest thing I can ever accept, and I'm glad that I have had the oppurtunity in this life to know him. The only way to God and eternal life is through Jesus Christ his son, and that is what I have chosen to believe.

I'm not going to sit here and try and push my faith onto you. We all have free will, and we just chose to believe different things. :)

[BroncoInferno]

I have chosen to follow a God who wants nothing but the best for me.

Well, He wants what's best for you, with one tiny caveat: you must believe in His existence without proof or he'll throw you into a fiery pit for eternity. Quite a needy Fellow.

[bendog]

I blame women

[Boobs McGee]

Well, He wants what's best for you, with one tiny caveat: you must believe in His existence without proof or he'll throw you into a fiery pit for eternity. Quite a needy Fellow.


I think that "fiery pit" that man uses as a fear tool is grossly miscommunicated.

I think "hell" as the world calls it, is going to be an eternity spent without God's direct presence. Once we pass on from this earth and realize why we've been here, that's going to take on a completely different meaning. I think that once we realize that we can't be in God's presence for the rest of eternity, we're going to spend that eternity wishing we'd spent our little sliver of time here on earth differently. That would be like hell in my opinion.

[alkemical]

Why is god "he"?

[alkemical]

I blame women


I'm partial to witchy women :)

[BroncoInferno]

I think that "fiery pit" that man uses as a fear tool is grossly miscommunicated.

I think "hell" as the world calls it, is going to be an eternity spent without God's direct presence. Once we pass on from this earth and realize why we've been here, that's going to take on a completely different meaning. I think that once we realize that we can't be in God's presence for the rest of eternity, we're going to spend that eternity wishing we'd spent our little sliver of time here on earth differently. That would be like hell in my opinion.

That's your version, many Christians adhere to the fiery pit version. The Bible itself isn't quite clear on the matter. It suggests both points of veiw at various times. Personally, I adhere to neither.

[enjolras]

My favorite part is how god provides no proof of his existence or identity... and yet requires the primary redeeming quality of a human to be the ability to throw logic aside and pick him out of a lineup of 15 other gods each with equal credentials.

Fascinating system really.

[alkemical]

why is god often viewed as a 'male' and to go from enjolras - if 'science' were to prove there is a 'god' - would that remove the faith quotient?

[alkemical]

amesj's beliefs of the world and it's workings:

As above, so below.

[Bronx33]

God still hasn't hooked me up with a good job even after asking numerous times.

[orangeatheist]

^ Sorry, Bronx. But sometimes the answer is "no".

[bronco_diesel]

My favorite part is how god provides no proof of his existence or identity... and yet requires the primary redeeming quality of a human to be the ability to throw logic aside and pick him out of a lineup of 15 other gods each with equal credentials.

Fascinating system really.

my favorite part of the belief in no God is how something came of nothing, and existance is merely an impossible random chance...which requires you to believe in lies and throw logic out the window. truly a much higher intellect indeed!

[bronco_diesel]

God still hasn't hooked me up with a good job even after asking numerous times.

the absolute most immature logic you can fathom in trying to determine if there is a God.

[Bronx33]

the absolute most immature logic you can fathom in trying to determine if there is a God.

Take it easy will ya, i guess humor isn't your thing.

[bronco_diesel]

Take it easy will ya, i guess humor isn't your thing.

sorry. my bad....i guess i've just heard this argument so often..it struck a nerve.

on the contrary, i love humor.

[Bronx33]

sorry. my bad....i guess i've just heard this argument so often..it struck a nerve.

on the contrary, i love humor.

I thought the thread needed it....;D

[TheDave]

but you won't even look at the other side of the argument on these, because they come from "young earth" creationists.

is that truly fair?

Again the BS that is "Young Earth Science" is so pathetic it immediately discredits anyone who supports it. If you need to belief it to support your faith, that's fine. Just don't expect anyone with any knowledge of the subject to accept it.

i am no scientists, but i have researched this enough to know that the idea of a big bang is impossible. i have researched evolution enough to know that it is opinion.

I am, and both of the above statements only hold credibility in non-science/Faith based discussions.

Folks, I'm all for you reading the bible and following it's teachings. But when you tell me that it is scientifically accurate I'm going to challenge you on it. When you tell me that a "Young Earth Scientist" says something I'm going to laugh just as hard as if you told me that a "Flat Earth Scientist" says something.

[DBruleU]

Again the BS that is "Young Earth Science" is so pathetic it immediately discredits anyone who supports it. If you need to belief it to support your faith, that's fine. Just don't expect anyone with any knowledge of the subject to accept it.



I am, and both of the above statements only hold credibility in non-science/Faith based discussions.

Folks, I'm all for you reading the bible and following it's teachings. But when you tell me that it is scientifically accurate I'm going to challenge you on it. When you tell me that a "Young Earth Scientist" says something I'm going to laugh just as hard as if you told me that a "Flat Earth Scientist" says something.


Well, I dont need it to support my faith. That part of what I believe isnt whats going to save me. The belief that Jesus is who is, is whats going to save me. The young earth science is just what I believe to be true. It may, or may not be true, but that's not what my entire faith is based on.

[bronco_diesel]

Again the BS that is "Young Earth Science" is so pathetic it immediately discredits anyone who supports it. If you need to belief it to support your faith, that's fine. Just don't expect anyone with any knowledge of the subject to accept it. .

this is the only argument i ever hear - that young earth is so pathetic that it immediatly needs to be discredited. why, because it completely shakes the framework of what you believe, or have been taught? why attack the platform and talk down on them? why not show us why it won't work?



I am, and both of the above statements only hold credibility in non-science/Faith based discussions..

that is argumenative and lacks proof.

Folks, I'm all for you reading the bible and following it's teachings..

thank you


But when you tell me that it is scientifically accurate I'm going to challenge you on it..
offer a challenge

When you tell me that a "Young Earth Scientist" says something I'm going to laugh just as hard as if you told me that a "Flat Earth Scientist" says something.

again, why laugh at them - instead of just prove them wrong. surly a scientists of your sorts must be capable of doing so, if they are so utterly rediculous in their structure of beliefs...

[bronco_diesel]

But when you tell me that it is scientifically accurate I'm going to challenge you on it. When you tell me that a "Young Earth Scientist" says something I'm going to laugh just as hard as if you told me that a "Flat Earth Scientist" says something.

this is the most frustrating part dave. you can offer up a challenge as to why the earth was not created in 6 days. i'll lob you a counter argument that it was. as soon as you see it was a "young earth" you stop reading...

[TheDave]

this is the most frustrating part dave. you can offer up a challenge as to why the earth was not created in 6 days. i'll lob you a counter argument that it was. as soon as you see it was a "young earth" you stop reading...

Tell you what copy and paste this over in the other thread "Dr. Dino" and we will attempt to address it.

[bronco_diesel]

Tell you what copy and paste this over in the other thread "Dr. Dino" and we will attempt to address it.

deal. thx.

tomorrow though - time to go home and play with the dogs.

[enjolras]

my favorite part of the belief in no God is how something came of nothing, and existance is merely an impossible random chance...which requires you to believe in lies and throw logic out the window. truly a much higher intellect indeed!

Science has done very little to address the ingredients problem of the big bang. Science has no answer for where the 'stuff' that makes up the cosmos came from. If you want to insert a creator at that point, then fine by me.

However, our current scientific explanations for what happened after the big bang are all based on good foundational science. They are all empirical in nature, and are constantly tested against new discoveries.

There is simply nothing in this that requires me to 'beleive in lies' or otherwise 'toss logic out the window'. I'd love for you to show me where science has steered me wrong.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

my favorite part of the belief in no God is how something came of nothing, and existance is merely an impossible random chance...which requires you to believe in lies and throw logic out the window.

These aren't the only two possibilities.

It's not necessarily the case that "something came out of nothing."

It could just be that there has always been something or other and always will be.

And that "something or other" might not be the Judeo-Christian God.

:sunshine:

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Seems kind of sadistic...play by my rules or I'll throw you into a fiery pit. Actually, it's more than that...believe I exist without proof and worship me or I'll throw you into a fiery pit. Doesn't sound like a Guy you'd want to have a beer with.

Exactly.

The Judeo-Christian image of God is political.

That is, God is conceived as the patriarch or ruler of a kingdom.

(And hell is the torture chamber in the dungeon of the castle that the church uses to frighten and guilt trip the sheeple into obedience.)

Very medieval stuff.

Another idea that dates the myth is the conception that matter is essentially and intrinsically stupid and requires some external intelligence, i.e., some sort of carpenter God (who is ontologically distinct from His creation and His creatures) to shape it. This artifactual view of matter was dispelled by modern physics a long time ago.

[baja]

Exactly.

The Judeo-Christian image of God is political.

That is, God is conceived as the patriarch or ruler of a kingdom.

(And hell is the torture chamber in the dungeon of the castle that the church uses to frighten and guilt trip the sheeple into obedience.)

Very medieval stuff.

Another idea that dates the myth is the conception that matter is essentially and intrinsically stupid and requires some external intelligence, i.e., some sort of carpenter God (who is ontologically distinct from His creation and His creatures) to shape it.<b> This artifactual view of matter was dispelled by modern physics a long time ago.</b.

Good post LA, check this stuff out!

http://members.aol.com/yggdras/paraphysics/BCarter.htm