Supreme Court Rules For Freedom of Religious Practice in Controversial Case

[epicSocialism4tw]

MSNBC.com

Court upholds church use of hallucinogenic tea
Justices unanimously rule that N.M. congregation can drink illegal drug

The Associated Press
Updated: 1:11 p.m. ET Feb. 21, 2006


WASHINGTON - The Supreme Court ruled unanimously Tuesday that a small congregation in New Mexico may use hallucinogenic tea as part of a four-hour ritual intended to connect with God.

Justices, in their first religious freedom decision under Chief Justice John Roberts, moved decisively to keep the government out of a church’s religious practice. Federal drug agents should have been barred from confiscating the hoasca tea of the Brazil-based church, Roberts wrote in the decision.

The tea, which contains an illegal drug known as DMT, is considered sacred to members of O Centro Espirita Beneficiente Uniao do Vegetal, which has a blend of Christian beliefs and South American traditions. Members believe they can understand God only by drinking the tea, which is consumed twice a month at four-hour ceremonies.

New Justice Samuel Alito did not take part in the case, which was argued last fall before Justice Sandra Day O’Connor before her retirement. Alito was on the bench for the first time on Tuesday.


Roberts said that the Bush administration had not met its burden under a federal religious freedom law to show that it could ban “the sect’s sincere religious practice.”

The chief justice had also been skeptical of the government’s position in the case last fall, suggesting that the administration was demanding too much, a “zero tolerance approach.”

The Bush administration had argued that the drug in the tea not only violates a federal narcotics law, but a treaty in which the United States promised to block the importation of drugs including dimethyltryptamine, also known as DMT.

“The government did not even submit evidence addressing the international consequences of granting an exemption for the (church),” Roberts wrote.

The justices sent the case back to a federal appeals court, which could consider more evidence.

Roberts, writing his second opinion since joining the court, said that religious freedom cases can be difficult “but Congress has determined that courts should strike sensible balances.”

The case is Gonzales v. O Centro Espirita Beneficiente Uniao Do Vegetal, 04-1084.

© 2006 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

© 2006 MSNBC.com

URL: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11188277/

[Bronco_Beerslug]

The right decision in this case IMO.

[alkemical]

damn FDA

[epicSocialism4tw]

That's a good start for the Supreme Court under Robertson. A victory for individual rights.

[Garcia Bronco]

Good job SC

[orangenblue2]

That's a good start for the Supreme Court under Robertson. A victory for individual rights.

No it isn't...and here's why. I personally have no problem with these people drinking their special "tea". What I abhor is the idea that the rest of us can't legally drink this "tea". What makes these fruitcakes so special? Oh that's right, a "sincere" belief in their own version of the "sky fairy". It is a bunch of BS that these people can now "legally" use it but I can't. Individual rights my ass...

[spdirty]

They need to overturn Emminent Domain before they get anything but contempt from me.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

No it isn't...and here's why. I personally have no problem with these people drinking their special "tea". What I abhor is the idea that the rest of us can't legally drink this "tea". What makes these fruitcakes so special? Oh that's right, a "sincere" belief in their own version of the "sky fairy". It is a bunch of BS that these people can now "legally" use it but I can't. Individual rights my ass...
Actually, you can now. Once it is allowed then anyone can claim the same thing.

[epicSocialism4tw]

No it isn't...and here's why. I personally have no problem with these people drinking their special "tea". What I abhor is the idea that the rest of us can't legally drink this "tea". What makes these fruitcakes so special? Oh that's right, a "sincere" belief in their own version of the "sky fairy". It is a bunch of BS that these people can now "legally" use it but I can't. Individual rights my ass...

Sure it is. You have some extreme beliefs about what your rights should include, no? Does policy change not take time? I think that you are being unreasonable.

Obviously, religion has no place in society for you, but thankfully you do not make the decisions.

[epicSocialism4tw]

They need to overturn Emminent Domain before they get anything but contempt from me.

Imminent Domain needs to go away. It's communism.

[spdirty]

Imminent Domain needs to go away. It's communism.


Heard on the radio yesterday that an 85 year old WW2 hero who has had the same house for 45 years is about to lose it so the city (Lonshore, or something) in New Jersey can build a mall and some art galleries. Sad.

[orangenblue2]

Actually, you can now. Once it is allowed then anyone can claim the same thing.

Oh, if it were only so...I happen to think that local law enforcement, prosecutors, and courts wouldn't take kindly to these sorts of "claims" made by me or "anyone" else. Let's not even get into trying to convince a jury of my "peers" (a veritable rainbow of different faiths, sects, and subsects) of my "sincere" belief in the powers of hallucinogenic substances and the ability said substances give me in order to "understand god"...whatever that means:peace:

[orangenblue2]

Sure it is. You have some extreme beliefs about what your rights should include, no? Does policy change not take time? I think that you are being unreasonable.

I disagree. I can guarantee you that I can find hundreds if not thousands of heroin users that will testify that they use "horse" to get closer to god, see god, worship god, etc.. Under your reasoning, they should be allowed to do so. Again, my problem isn't with these people taking hallucinogenic "tea". I could care less. In fact, I don't have a problem with those people who abuse smack. If they want to ruin their lives, so be it. What I do have a problem with is you saying that this is a victory for individual rights. To make that statement true, everyone should be allowed to drink this special "tea"; not just those select few who claim that a "tea" lets them understand god. Its really very simple...

[orangenblue2]

Obviously, religion has no place in society for you, but thankfully you do not make the decisions.

Obviously, religion has every place in society for you, and you'd like to make the decisions, if and only if they conform to your beliefs. Thankfully, here in the good 'ol US of A, there are strict guidelines separating church and state. Or at least there used to be...

[epicSocialism4tw]

I disagree. I can guarantee you that I can find hundreds if not thousands of heroin users that will testify that they use "horse" to get closer to god, see god, worship god, etc.. Under your reasoning, they should be allowed to do so. Again, my problem isn't with these people taking hallucinogenic "tea". I could care less. In fact, I don't have a problem with those people who abuse smack. If they want to ruin their lives, so be it.

No. You assumed too much with too little information. Under my reasoning, a viable religious tradition was maintained by the US governments conscious allowance of those practices to go on without regulation. Those practices would be construed illegal in other circumstances, but taking culture into account, the US judiciary granted that group of individuals the right to continue their form of worship without a government mandate. The group showed enough evidence to the Supreme Court of the United States to convince them that their cause was legit, and was not simply a bunch of hippies in the desert tripping on peyote.

And no, there is never a day that I want to see heroin available to psychologically at-risk individuals for dirt cheap around the corner. I have seen heroin in action, and anything to get that stuff away from the destitute could only be seen as compassionate action. It is truly the chemical form of chaos, pain, and destruction.

You are breaking down complex issues into little compartmentalized ideas that sound great in theory, but become very difficult to adhere to practically. For someone that seems so angry at 'faries in the sky', you sure seem like an idealist, which by nature cling to 'faries in the sky' over pragmatism. So you have your own faries, but you hate the faries of others. Nice.

What I do have a problem with is you saying that this is a victory for individual rights. To make that statement true, everyone should be allowed to drink this special "tea"; not just those select few who claim that a "tea" lets them understand god. Its really very simple...

Again, this is reductionism past the point of relevance to the discussion.

[orangenblue2]

No. You assumed too much with too little information. Under my reasoning, a viable religious tradition was maintained by the US governments conscious allowance of those practices to go on without regulation. Those practices would be construed illegal in other circumstances, but taking culture into account, the US judiciary granted that group of individuals the right to continue their form of worship without a government mandate. The group showed enough evidence to the Supreme Court of the United States to convince them that their cause was legit, and was not simply a bunch of hippies in the desert tripping on peyote.

What exactly is this "viable religious tradition" you seem to hold in such high regard? The O Centro Espirita Uniao do Vegetal was founded in Brazil in 1961. (If 46 years ain't "viable", I don't know what is...) There are approximately 8,000 members in Brazil. In 1993, its leader set up a branch in Sante Fe, NM. The estimated number of followers in the US is 130. So, from the facts we can glean that approximately 130 US adherents can now legally ingest tea laced with DMT because their "religion" (a blend of christian theology and indigenous South American beliefs) is, in your words, "legit". That leaves roughly 298,163,979 Americans that can't legally partake of this wonderful, life-altering, god-knowing "tea". This is your "victory for individual rights". Let's strip all the pretenses away here. You applauded this courtroom victory expressly because it had something to do with freedom to practice religion how one sees fit. If you had any intellectual honesty, you would admit that allowing 130 people out of almost 300 million is hardly a "victory for individual rights". I say if these crackpots can legally use a mind-altering entheogen for the purpose of "understanding god", I sure as hell should be able to do it because, well, um, it just feels good...

[alkemical]

shamans have been using stuff like this since well, longer than i've been alive.

[epicSocialism4tw]

shamans have been using stuff like this since well, longer than i've been alive.

centuries.

[epicSocialism4tw]

What exactly is this "viable religious tradition" you seem to hold in such high regard? The O Centro Espirita Uniao do Vegetal was founded in Brazil in 1961. (If 46 years ain't "viable", I don't know what is...) There are approximately 8,000 members in Brazil. In 1993, its leader set up a branch in Sante Fe, NM. The estimated number of followers in the US is 130. So, from the facts we can glean that approximately 130 US adherents can now legally ingest tea laced with DMT because their "religion" (a blend of christian theology and indigenous South American beliefs) is, in your words, "legit". That leaves roughly 298,163,979 Americans that can't legally partake of this wonderful, life-altering, god-knowing "tea". This is your "victory for individual rights". Let's strip all the pretenses away here. You applauded this courtroom victory expressly because it had something to do with freedom to practice religion how one sees fit. If you had any intellectual honesty, you would admit that allowing 130 people out of almost 300 million is hardly a "victory for individual rights". I say if these crackpots can legally use a mind-altering entheogen for the purpose of "understanding god", I sure as hell should be able to do it because, well, um, it just feels good...

And that has no relevance at all to individual and corporate religious rights.

[alkemical]

yeah so if it works for them, who cares!

[orangenblue2]

You are breaking down complex issues into little compartmentalized ideas that sound great in theory, but become very difficult to adhere to practically. For someone that seems so angry at 'faries in the sky', you sure seem like an idealist, which by nature cling to 'faries in the sky' over pragmatism. So you have your own faries, but you hate the faries of others. Nice.



Again, this is reductionism past the point of relevance to the discussion.

Nice try Dr. Freud. Your pseudo-intellectual drivel aside, I refuse to be painted with your "idealist" label. If anything, I'm a dyed-in-the-wool realist. That means I believe in any and everything that is real. Simple as that. I'm not angry at, nor do I have my own "fairies in the sky". They aren't real, so I don't believe in them.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Nice try Dr. Freud. Your pseudo-intellectual drivel aside, I refuse to be painted with your "idealist" label. If anything, I'm a dyed-in-the-wool realist. That means I believe in any and everything that is real. Simple as that. I'm not angry at, nor do I have my own "fairies in the sky". They aren't real, so I don't believe in them.

A realist clings to the idea that there are certain unalienable rights?

[orangenblue2]

yeah so if it works for them, who cares!

Dude, you are missing my point. I've said from the beginning that I could care less if they use it and it works. That's effin fantastic. Hell, if I could get my hands on some, I'd try it myself.(Although I could be arrested, convicted, and incarcerated because I'm not a member of that church) I simply took exception to Llama's pronouncement that the court decision was a "victory for individual rights". Would not everyone, age 21 or older, who wanted to, benefit from using a tea that helped one "understand god"??? And wouldn't it be nice to have the protection of the law to fall back on? Seems like a hell of a lot of trouble for approximately 130 "god understanders"...

[epicSocialism4tw]

Dude, you are missing my point. I've said from the beginning that I could care less if they use it and it works. That's effin fantastic. Hell, if I could get my hands on some, I'd try it myself.(Although I could be arrested, convicted, and incarcerated because I'm not a member of that church) I simply took exception to Llama's pronouncement that the court decision was a "victory for individual rights". Would not everyone, age 21 or older, who wanted to, benefit from using a tea that helped one "understand god"??? And wouldn't it be nice to have the protection of the law to fall back on? Seems like a hell of a lot of trouble for approximately 130 "god understanders"...

I think that you are missing the point. You are looking at the situation as an idealist would. "Drug X is useful to group A"..."Group A is made up of people"..."all people are the same"..."all people should be able to use drug X". Then you apply that logic to the idea that the use of that drug as a "religious tool" would be benificial to all cultures across the board in the united states. That simply isnt true. Not only is that idea untrue, but it comes from an idealist's perspective, not a realists. So make up your mind, which are you? Actually, you can be a mixture of any number of general philosophies.

Intellectual dishonesty? You lied about your orientation to me before in the face of your own evidence. I believe the term was "dyed-in-the-wool realist."

The Supreme Court decided that this group deserved the right to use DMT in the practice of thier worship because they had obviously shown responsibility in the use of the drug. While it is true that giving individuals the right to use illegal drugs at their own discretion would be an increase in idealistic individual rights, it is unrealistic to think that it would ever happen. So, this case is a victory for individual religious rights.

[BroncoInferno]

It figures angryllama would champion anything giving preferential treatment to religion. He wines about persecution when what he is really upset about is the rollback of preferential treatment religion used to enjoy. This is a step backward.

[epicSocialism4tw]

It figures angryllama would champion anything giving preferential treatment to religion. He wines about persecution when what he is really upset about is the rollback of preferential treatment religion used to enjoy. This is a step backward.

Of course it figures. I'm religious and enjoy my faith. There's nothing wrong with that...unless of course you dont like religious people. Thankfully the constitution puts forth rights regarding the free exercise of religion, and I can count on at least a chance in America to be able to practice my faith openly and freely whether you like it or not.

[BroncoInferno]

Of course it figures. I'm religious and enjoy my faith. There's nothing wrong with that...unless of course you dont like religious people. Thankfully the constitution puts forth rights regarding the free exercise of religion, and I can count on at least a chance in America to be able to practice my faith openly and freely whether you like it or not.

And that's fine, except you don't want fairness, you want preferential treatment for your mystical practices.

[TheDave]

http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/dmt/dmt_basics.shtml

just giving people some info on what N-Dimethyltryptamine is...

This is some seriously heavy stuff. I'm a little confused by this ruling.

[epicSocialism4tw]

http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/dmt/dmt_basics.shtml

just giving people some info on what N-Dimethyltryptamine is...

This is some seriously heavy stuff. I'm a little confused by this ruling.

Yeah...I believe that it is derived from a weed or a grass. There are tribes that have used it in tribal ceremonies for years and years.

[TheDave]

What exactly is this "viable religious tradition" you seem to hold in such high regard? The O Centro Espirita Uniao do Vegetal was founded in Brazil in 1961. (If 46 years ain't "viable", I don't know what is...) There are approximately 8,000 members in Brazil. In 1993, its leader set up a branch in Sante Fe, NM. The estimated number of followers in the US is 130. So, from the facts we can glean that approximately 130 US adherents can now legally ingest tea laced with DMT because their "religion" (a blend of christian theology and indigenous South American beliefs) is, in your words, "legit". That leaves roughly 298,163,979 Americans that can't legally partake of this wonderful, life-altering, god-knowing "tea". This is your "victory for individual rights". Let's strip all the pretenses away here. You applauded this courtroom victory expressly because it had something to do with freedom to practice religion how one sees fit. If you had any intellectual honesty, you would admit that allowing 130 people out of almost 300 million is hardly a "victory for individual rights". I say if these crackpots can legally use a mind-altering entheogen for the purpose of "understanding god", I sure as hell should be able to do it because, well, um, it just feels good...

The man has a point. Don't some churches use Marijuana as part of their rituals... this looks like an amazingly slippery slope here

[alkemical]

Dude, you are missing my point. I've said from the beginning that I could care less if they use it and it works. That's effin fantastic. Hell, if I could get my hands on some, I'd try it myself.(Although I could be arrested, convicted, and incarcerated because I'm not a member of that church) I simply took exception to Llama's pronouncement that the court decision was a "victory for individual rights". Would not everyone, age 21 or older, who wanted to, benefit from using a tea that helped one "understand god"??? And wouldn't it be nice to have the protection of the law to fall back on? Seems like a hell of a lot of trouble for approximately 130 "god understanders"...


no i get it (the dichotomy/hypocrisy) of the issue....

i for one am more apt to lean to the libertarian philosophy per social issues

[Mile High Shack]

so the church of satan believes in animal and some human sacrifice

is that ok too?

[alkemical]

oh sheesh -

looking drinking some trippy tea is not killing someone.

If it doesn't cause harm to others, then it's not a problem.

GET OFF YOUR CROSS!

[Mile High Shack]

oh sheesh -

looking drinking some trippy tea is not killing someone.

If it doesn't cause harm to others, then it's not a problem.

GET OFF YOUR CROSS!

no cross

where do you draw the line

how do you know they aren't hurting anyone else

say they get in their car and plow down some people while they are visiting God?

I'm just saying.......

[alkemical]

no cross

where do you draw the line

how do you know they aren't hurting anyone else

say they get in their car and plow down some people while they are visiting God?

I'm just saying.......


chances are they use it respectfully - are there those who will abuse. Of course. but if it's outline in a 4hr ceremony, chances are they are doing it right.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

no cross

where do you draw the line
.
You don't draw the line. The new right wing court draws the line.

[Mile High Shack]

You don't draw the line. The new right wing court draws the line.

I'm more so bored and wanted to argue, I really don't care either way

[orangenblue2]

say they get in their car and plow down some people while they are visiting God?

Nah, god surely wouldn't allow people he was conversing with to do something as heinous as that...would he???

[orangenblue2]

so the church of satan believes in animal and some human sacrifice

is that ok too?

Only if that is the only way that they can truly "understand" satan:nyahdevil

[Bronco_Beerslug]

I'm more so bored and wanted to argue, I really don't care either way
I thnk it's a great ruling! Opens the door to legalizing all kinds of tried and tested drugs.

This guy thought it was some of the best stuff going but pretty pricey at about $20 a hit. I remember hundred lots of acid and mescaline for $30-40.

http://www.erowid.org/culture/characters/mckenna_terence/images/mckenna_terence2_med.jpg
Terence McKenna
Nov 16, 1946 - Apr 3, 2000 (2:15 am)

"The feeling of doing DMT is as though one had been struck by noetic lightning. The ordinary world is almost instantaneously replaced, not only with a hallucination, but a hallucination whose alien character is its utter alienness. Nothing in this world can prepare one for the impressions that fill your mind when you enter the DMT sensorium."

[alkemical]

the only problem that leary and mckenna created is they didn't communicate that with such usage, it does open a new perception for one to contemplate, but that you can reach this stage with work on meditations.

Most people don't get beyond the temporary window, to actually walk through the door.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

the only problem that leary and mckenna created is they didn't communicate that with such usage, it does open a new perception for one to contemplate, but that you can reach this stage with work on meditations.

Most people don't get beyond the temporary window, to actually walk through the door.
Did Walkabout walk through that door or is still looking through the window?

[alkemical]

Well for me, i used mushrooms and i thought i had found the fountain for the way to easy enlightenment. But i also kept up mediations. Eventually i found that the mushrooms did provide a window, but then when the drugs wear off - you aren't looking through the window.

However, doing meditations i've had very similar 'visions' yet the lasting effects are much greater. helps that you remember them too. :)

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Well for me, i used mushrooms and i thought i had found the fountain for the way to easy enlightenment. But i also kept up mediations. Eventually i found that the mushrooms did provide a window, but then when the drugs wear off - you aren't looking through the window.

However, doing meditations i've had very similar 'visions' yet the lasting effects are much greater. helps that you remember them too. :)

I had no problem remembering where psychedelics (lysergic acid diethylamide and others) took me, in fact, I'll never forget them. :)

[alkemical]

I had no problem remembering where psychedelics (lysergic acid diethylamide and others) took me, in fact, I'll never forget them. :)


I just feel that if i can learn to do it on my own, i get much more use out of it longterm.

[Hogan11]

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b235/bradleebunny/burgerking.jpg

I dunno....I thought it was funny Ha!