Pakistani Cleric Announces 1 Million Dollar Bounty For Killing Cartoonist

[Bronx33]

There are more than 1.6 billion muslims in the world. If your assumptions were correct, the world would be a far more violent place than it presently is.


Or maybe they are stable until you draw a cartoon? and this is just the tip of the iceberg.

[epicSocialism4tw]

A large number condemned 9/11 despite the American gov't misrepresentation of the terrorists. America had an incredible amount of good will across the world after 9/11, the problem was their total misuse of that good will, and their total incompetence of understanding the Middle East (or any nation that is being occupied). The American gov'ts intentions towards Iraq were never well hidden (other than to those in America who chose otherwise). Even though the gov't KNEW Iraq was not at the root of 9/11, its first reaction was to want to invade Iraq.

The most incredible part of this historical moment is that Bush let the final decision come to a vote. Luckily they chose instead to invade the true culprit, Afghanistan. BTW, for those of you who don't remember, the reason the Hawks did not want to invade Afghanistan was because they were AFRAID of a protracted war in that country. It shows how well they understood the ramifications of their plans.

Conversely, the Pentagon was right about most of its assessments, but Rumsfeld is much smarter than the military people, so he largely ignored them. Be they liberal or conservative politicians, they are all mostly idiots when it comes to understanding the ramifications of war. But they all know best.

I'm sure that they understand the ramifications of war just fine. You are talking about individuals that have achieved at very high levels of responsibility for their entire lives. Labeling these people as incompetent is childish. You have to look at why they made certain decisions, and not to dismiss them at face value. The animosity towards the US was not created with the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq. It had grown to the point that we were being attacked all over the world and at home. 9/11 was the last straw. Iraq was the most unstable country of the lot (which is really bad) and proposed a huge potential risk to present and future American interests in the region. It was either take care of the risk now, or put it off until it is potentially disasterous. I cant say that I would have made a different decision given the state of that country and their propensity for standing in the face of UN sanctions. Something had to be done, and the US wasnt going to let the UN threaten their sovereignty.

If the US really wants to diffuse the international tension, they are going to have to become less involved in international trade. The US is the engine that drives that trade right now and has been since WWII. The US is sort of an international entity now and has involved itself in the public affairs of countries around the globe. WWII evolved it into a modern international empire. The longer we have our hands in international trade, the longer we see situations like this where the US attempts to maintain the status quo by dealing with rogues like Iraq.

[enjolras]

This just in: the world is an extremely violent place, and the most violent places on the planet are inhabited by Muslims. Indonesia and the Sudan being the typical examples. The only difference is, that these countries do not have organized, westernized militaries. They kill each other with machetes.

Detroit, Philadelphia, and Dallas are dangerous places if you go to the wrong part of town.

What does south Dallas have in common with Indonesia and the Sudan? What do violent Christians in Africa have in common with the people in Afghanistan? That's right: poverty. Maybe the problem isn't Islam, but the abject poverty of the people living within in it?

When your poor you tend to hold human life in much lower regard. I live in an area with a decently large Muslim population, and the ones I know are all pissed as hell at those cartoons.. but they certainly aren't ready to go out and kill anybody (except the idiots in the 'Islamic world' that are doing this interestingly enough). Point being, in parts of the world where Muslims are largely included in a propsperous society (such as the United States) they tend to be just like anyone else.

Maybe if more people here lived in grass huts, lost most of their families to disease and war, and otherwise led miserable existences we'd see the same type of violence here.

I think Bin Laden is absolutely insane. But what he's doing is clear, he wants to characterize this conflict as a religious war, because only then can he truly get the whole of the Muslim world on his side. We seem far to eager to comply..

We need to deal with this for what it is, a large group of poor and desperate people that need to be included in the prosperity that we are lucky enough to enjoy.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Pakistani Forces Seek to Quell Protests
By MATTHEW PENNINGTON, Associated Press Writer

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan - Pakistani security forces arrested hundreds of Islamic hard-liners, virtually sealed off the capital and used gunfire and tear gas Sunday to quell protests against caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad.

Pakistan had banned protests after riots killed five people in two cities last week.

Elsewhere in the Muslim world on Sunday, demonstrators with wooden staves and stones tried unsuccessfully to storm the U.S. Embassy in Indonesia, while tens of thousands rallied in the Turkish city of Istanbul and complained about negative Western perceptions of Islam.

Troops patrolled the deserted streets of the northern Nigerian town of Maiduguri, where thousands of Muslims attacked Christians and burned churches Saturday, killing at least 15 people during a protest over the cartoons. Most of the victims were beaten to death by rioters.

In Saudi Arabia, newspapers ran full-page apologies by Jyllands-Posten, the Danish newspaper that first ran the caricatures in September. The newspaper's Web site said businesses placed the ad on their own initiative, using an apology issued by the newspaper late last month. It did not identify the companies or say if they were Danish.

Boycotts of Danish products throughout the Muslim world have taken a heavy toll on Denmark's exporters, especially those selling Denmark's famed dairy products.

The cartoons, which have been reprinted by other Western publications, have outraged Muslims. But protests over the past three weeks have grown into a broader anger against the West in general, and
Israel and the United States in particular.

Demonstrations have turned increasingly violent and claimed at least 45 lives worldwide, including 11 in
Afghanistan during a three-day span two weeks ago and 10 on Friday in the Libyan coastal city of Benghazi. The Libyan riot outside the Italian consulate apparently was sparked by a right-wing Italian Cabinet minister who wore a T-shirt with a caricature of Muhammad.

On Sunday, thousands of police and paramilitary troops manned armored personnel carriers and sandbag bunkers in and around Islamabad to block a planned rally organized by a coalition of hardline Islamic parties that sympathizes with the former Taliban regime in Afghanistan and is fiercely anti-American.

As roadblocks went up around the capital, authorities declared they would arrest anyone joining a gathering of more than five people.

Maulana Fazlur Rahman, an opposition leader who denounced the government ban as unconstitutional, was allowed to stage a small rally with eight other opposition lawmakers and a few supporters. They chanted "God is great!" and "Any friend of America is a traitor."

But police fired tear gas and guns to chase off hundreds of stone-throwing protesters who tried to join the rally and then enter an enclave where most foreign embassies are. The three-hour clash left the street littered with rocks and spent tear gas shells. An Associated Press reporter saw two injured police, one bleeding from his head, and several injured protesters.

Interior Minister Aftab Khan Sherpao said police used tear gas, but denied they fired guns. The private Geo TV network said officers fired rubber bullets.

Qazi Hussain Ahmad, a top leader of the hardline Islamic coalition, the Mutahida Majlis-e-Amal (United Action Forum), was confined to his Lahore residence and others were detained or told to stay at home, police said.

"These people could create problems of law and order," said Chaudhry Shafqaat Ahmed, chief investigator of the Lahore police.

In Karachi, Pakistan's largest city, police said 15,000 coalition supporters, most wearing white shrouds of mourning splashed with red paint to symbolize their willingness to die defending the prophet's honor, rallied peacefully.

Twelve-year-old Amar Ahmed joined the protest, carrying a sign reading, "O Allah, give me courage to kill the blasphemer."

Hundreds of Muslims burned a church in the southern city of Sukkur. No worshippers were inside at the time, but one person was hurt afterward when police fired tear gas.
(CONTINUED)
http://tinyurl.com/klsm5

[epicSocialism4tw]

That is consistent with 3rd world strongly impoverished countries, especially when strong factions exist. Have you never heard of atrocities is SA. BTW, one of the most violent areas in the early 80s was Beirut, and many of the attrocities were committed by Christians against Christians. Morevoer, Christians have a history of killing everyone, including those factions that dissagree with them. Religion is not the root of evil, it is just a simple crutch.

The Christian 'killing of everyone' led to the civilization of Europe and eventually of North America. There is no doubt that the use of Christianity by the Romans and the peoples of Europe in the conquering of the tribes of those regions stands in the face of what Jesus taught. Jesus and Mohammed are very different though. Jesus led by example and Mohammed led by conquest. The parallels between the religions themselves are not related by too many common ideals.

The corporatization of those religions takes on the same manifestation as any corporate government does and is subject to the same controversial decisions, such as war. If a society does not war, it does not survive.

I will say that the people groups that adopted Christianity were far more prepared to establish long-lasting and functional societies than their muslim counterparts, and that still holds to be true as the westerners have provided the major part of the civilization, societal advancements (such as technology), cooperation, and flow of money throughout the world.

[epicSocialism4tw]

We need to deal with this for what it is, a large group of poor and desperate people that need to be included in the prosperity that we are lucky enough to enjoy.

It's too bad that their muslim leaders (like Bin Laden) cannot come up with a better way to deal with the resources that they have at their disposal. Their wealth is directly related to trade with the westernized nations. The same nations that their leaders speak against. They enjoy biting the hand that feeds.

The Islamic leaders of these countries are not interested in bringing the poor of their countries more comfort. They are interested in exploiting them for their own gain to the point of desperation. That's a calculated decision that is made by every lord in every part of that region. Islam keeps the poor willing to continue giving their lives to a rediculous cause.

We have done our part to make their society better, and that is by bringing them wealth. They have done nothing with it, but buy up gold and build themselves palaces.

[Bronx33]

Detroit, Philadelphia, and Dallas are dangerous places if you go to the wrong part of town.

What does south Dallas have in common with Indonesia and the Sudan? What do violent Christians in Africa have in common with the people in Afghanistan? That's right: poverty. Maybe the problem isn't Islam, but the abject poverty of the people living within in it?

When your poor you tend to hold human life in much lower regard. I live in an area with a decently large Muslim population, and the ones I know are all pissed as hell at those cartoons.. but they certainly aren't ready to go out and kill anybody (except the idiots in the 'Islamic world' that are doing this interestingly enough). Point being, in parts of the world where Muslims are largely included in a propsperous society (such as the United States) they tend to be just like anyone else.

Maybe if more people here lived in grass huts, lost most of their families to disease and war, and otherwise led miserable existences we'd see the same type of violence here.

I think Bin Laden is absolutely insane. But what he's doing is clear, he wants to characterize this conflict as a religious war, because only then can he truly get the whole of the Muslim world on his side. We seem far to eager to comply..

We need to deal with this for what it is, a large group of poor and desperate people that need to be included in the prosperity that we are lucky enough to enjoy.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Well it's kinda hard to pull that off when you are concidered an infidel and should be eliminated this religion doesn't allow any room for negotiations your either with them or against them. And to poor and ignorant to be taught another way of tolerance, i just don't see this ending in a good way when they won't even stand up against the ones dragging islam through the mud.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Well it's kinda hard to pull that off when you are concidered an infidel and should be eliminated this religion doesn't allow any room for negotiations your either with them or against them. And to poor and ignorant to be taught another way of tolerance, i just don't see this ending in a good way when they won't even stand up against the ones dragging islam through the mud.

That's a good point.

[enjolras]

It's too bad that their muslim leaders (like Bin Laden) cannot come up with a better way to deal with the resources that they have at their disposal. Their wealth is directly related to trade with the westernized nations. The same nations that their leaders speak against. They enjoy biting the hand that feeds.

The Islamic leaders of these countries are not interested in bringing the poor of their countries more comfort. They are interested in exploiting them for their own gain to the point of desperation. That's a calculated decision that is made by every lord in every part of that region. Islam keeps the poor willing to continue giving their lives to a rediculous cause.

That's the issue, tho. Bin Laden is not a 'leader' in any real sense of the word. They are not leading a country in any way.. they are quite a bit like the militita idiots we have here. They derive their power by railling against the governments actually in charge, rather than DOING anything. They are just an alternative with no other answer than violence. When your poor, ignorant, and desperate that SOUNDS like an answer.

When/if the fundamentalists come to power (as they have in Palestine) the equation changes. Now they become accountable for actually doing something, and the whole thing breaks down at that point.

This is why instilling democracy in this part of the world is so important. Sure, they'll be theocratic democracies at first.. (as in Iraq) but putting the fundamenatlists in power is the first step in making them go away.

[enjolras]

Well it's kinda hard to pull that off when you are concidered an infidel and should be eliminated this religion doesn't allow any room for negotiations your either with them or against them. And to poor and ignorant to be taught another way of tolerance, i just don't see this ending in a good way when they won't even stand up against the ones dragging islam through the mud.

That's the whole point. In a stable society those teachings don't resonate so easily. You will NEVER fix this until you change the fundamentals of whats going on in that part of the world.

[Bronx33]

That's the whole point. In a stable society those teachings don't resonate so easily. You will NEVER fix this until you change the fundamentals of whats going on in that part of the world.


And how is this accomplished? when the guys in charge of these ignorant sticks are inciting riots over cartoons the fact is that religion needs some serious help at turning the other cheek and tolerance they act like a hive of yellow jackets.( A important muslim is going to have to step up and open up some eyes) because right now you have a bunch of leaders stepping up and telling the yellow jackets what to do.

[epicSocialism4tw]

That's the whole point. In a stable society those teachings don't resonate so easily. You will NEVER fix this until you change the fundamentals of whats going on in that part of the world.


Another poster criticized our government for making childish decisions about underestimating the ramifications of war. Your rationale is precisely what our government decided was neccessary to establish some sort of accountability and advancement in the region away from their pre-middle-ages mentality. It made the decision to pursue this avenue to attempt to begin stabilizing the region. If this works at all, you have to look at Iraq as a huge success down the road and a great landmark in the movement of the middle east forward as far as civilization is concerned.

[yavoon]

That's the whole point. In a stable society those teachings don't resonate so easily. You will NEVER fix this until you change the fundamentals of whats going on in that part of the world.

muslims have proved time and again the least integrating of all societies. when the descendant of van gogh died it was a muslim born in denmark who killed him.

muslims in europe still systematically kill women.

[epicSocialism4tw]

muslims have proved time and again the least integrating of all societies. when the descendant of van gogh died it was a muslim born in denmark who killed him.

muslims in europe still systematically kill women.

Yeah, they are doing that here as well (illegally). If a man feels that a woman that he is associated with (wife, mother, sister, cousin, etc) has disgraced his family name, said woman can be disposed of legally and used as an example for the community.

[RMT]

MSNBC is showing a segment on jihad ... one set of four jordanians went to Iraq and one of them lost both legs to a cluster bomb - said it was the dumbest thing he ever did and says that life is more important. No kidding.

[Merlin]

muslims have proved time and again the least integrating of all societies. when the descendant of van gogh died it was a muslim born in denmark who killed him.

muslims in europe still systematically kill women.It is incredibly simplistic to take a moment in time and define all prior and future events by them. I suggest you check your history. Read about the dark ages, the Moors, and Spain. The reason there was an age of enlightenment is because of the Moors. The reason Spain was so inclusive prior to the 16h century was because of the Moors. It is during the period where of Queen Isabella and King Ferdinand are able to force the moors back south that Spain becomes intolerant of many religious groups and the inquisition takes force.

Referring to the same time period, Islam was also considered more enlightened in its treatment of women (is all relative to the times, of course). You rightly criticized liberal interpretations of the Bible, yet here you are committing the same "ethnocentric" mistake.

Now as to the ignorance of this administration AL. , it has already been clearly documented. The Neocons totally misread the Middle East and totally disregarded the insights of the pentagon, which is why they are in this mess. As to instability, there was NONE. Sadam had a strong hold of the region (i.e. Iraq) and he had NOTHING to do with any of the terrorist. And despite what the administration claims, he could never had convinced the Security Council to drop the sanctions against (which we know were working, and have been since validated) because the USA held a VETO, which they would have used.

But now, the lack of dictatorship has made Iraq a festering ground for terrorism. All this information is well documented, and the disagreements between the Neocons and the Pentagon have been stated many times. It is amazing how time and again people drink the Kool-Aid the administration gives even though there own WAR specialists always contradicted them. So yes, I do think Rumsfeld, Rice et al are incompetent. Do you have any evidence to the contrary?

[sirhcyennek81]

You have got to be kidding. Christians have killed more of each of those religions than all the others combined. I know it is simpler to just label and hate groups as an entity, but I always find it humorous when the person doing it has been a victim of the exact same "crime".

You remind me of a friend who happens to be black. He is a bit of a homophobe, and we have a few discussions on the subject matter. It was always ironic when many of his comments mirrored those made against blacks no less than 2 decades ago. If I remember correctly you are gay. The reason that is relevant is because far too often all gays are defined as a single entity as you well know. Yet you describe yourself as right wing gay person, something many liberals think is a contradiction in terms since conservatives have been at the root of much of the hate expressed against gays. But what these simplistic liberals fail to understand is that there is no such thing as a gay ENTITY.

However, I am sure the world is a lot safer when one is able to define and understand it in simple terms. Sorry for the interruption.

Speaking now, in the world we live in, Islam, or interpretation of the Koran within Islam is making war on every other religion, this is not generalizing, because its true. I do know what you mean, in regards to making all of Islam a single entity. They are not, even more so then Christians are a single entity. But it is hard to diffrentiate the groupings inside Islam when NONE of them ever speak out in favor of tolerance, or against the violence we see daily. That is what I meant.

:Broncos:

[yavoon]

It is incredibly simplistic to take a moment in time and define all prior and future events by them. I suggest you check your history. Read about the dark ages, the Moors, and Spain. The reason there was an age of enlightenment is because of the Moors. The reason Spain was so inclusive prior to the 16h century was because of the Moors. It is during the period where of Queen Isabella and King Ferdinand are able to force the moors back south that Spain becomes intolerant of many religious groups and the inquisition takes force.

Referring to the same time period, Islam was also considered more enlightened in its treatment of women (is all relative to the times, of course). You rightly criticized liberal interpretations of the Bible, yet here you are committing the same "ethnocentric" mistake.

Now as to the ignorance of this administration AL. , it has already been clearly documented. The Neocons totally misread the Middle East and totally disregarded the insights of the pentagon, which is why they are in this mess. As to instability, there was NONE. Sadam had a strong hold of the region (i.e. Iraq) and he had NOTHING to do with any of the terrorist. And despite what the administration claims, he could never had convinced the Security Council to drop the sanctions against (which we know were working, and have been since validated) because the USA held a VETO, which they would have used.

But now, the lack of dictatorship has made Iraq a festering ground for terrorism. All this information is well documented, and the disagreements between the Neocons and the Pentagon have been stated many times. It is amazing how time and again people drink the Kool-Aid the administration gives even though there own WAR specialists always contradicted them. So yes, I do think Rumsfeld, Rice et al are incompetent. Do you have any evidence to the contrary?

yah I'm not sure this was even a response to me except to say "how dare u use an example."

right now the koran is a very violent book and muslims are very violent people. could we change the latter? maybe, but thats not our present reality, and the former isnt going anywhere.

[sirhcyennek81]

They are angry...because they are poor...yet every single one of the 9/11 hijackers were college educated, and of affluent background. Osama himself is a millionaire. Poverty angle does not fly, considering the oil producing countries are some of the wealthiest in the world.

:Broncos:

[yavoon]

I dont think many ppl realize how hard it is to read the koran and become a western liberal(what most ppl think moderate muslims are/should be)

I mean what the hell are u suppose to do w/ this:

4:74 Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward.

4:76 Those who believe do battle for the cause of Allah; and those who disbelieve do battle for the cause of idols. So fight the minions of the devil. Lo! the devil's strategy is ever weak.

4:101 And when ye go forth in the land, it is no sin for you to curtail (your) worship if ye fear that those who disbelieve may attack you. In truth the disbelievers are an open enemy to you.

sound like something that happened 5ish years ago?

its not a story, u can't say its really out of context. wtf are u suppose to think if u honestly believe in allah and the koran? I know christians have overcome similar passages, but most of them(not all) are in the OT and even at that most are told in stories.

[Merlin]

right now the koran is a very violent book and muslims are very violent people. could we change the latter? maybe, but thats not our present reality, and the former isnt going anywhere.
The Bible is very violent book in which violence was often seen as the solution to sin, but then I am sure you are already aware of that. The whole Middle East is a mess, and it is not going to get any better any time soon. We'll it be peaceful in our lifetime? I doubt it, too much history and too much hate. However, I do think that there are policies that are more conducive to increasing violence than others.

Having lived in SA, I can tell you, the American foreign policy far too often functions as an occupying force in one of three guises: 1. A political occupying force (dictating the type of violent dictatorship that should rule; 2. An economic occupying force (read multinationals); 3. Military (no need to explain further). This type of activity is not recognized by the common American, but it is far entrenched in the psyche of the people of those regions. The same can be said of Americans in the ME.

So, although there are perhaps no solutions that could resolve these issues in our lifetime, there are certainly actions that can inflame and worsen the region. Iraq is a clear example of the latter (especially the manner in which it was carried out).

[yavoon]

The Bible is very violent book in which violence was often seen as the solution to sin, but then I am sure you are already aware of that. The whole Middle East is a mess, and it is not going to get any better any time soon. We'll it be peaceful in our lifetime? I doubt it, too much history and too much hate. However, I do think that there are policies that are more conducive to increasing violence than others.

Having lived in SA, I can tell you, the American foreign policy far too often functions as an occupying force in one of three guises: 1. A political occupying force (dictating the type of violent dictatorship that should rule; 2. An economic occupying force (read multinationals); 3. Military (no need to explain further). This type of activity is not recognized by the common American, but it is far entrenched in the psyche of the people of those regions. The same can be said of Americans in the ME.

So, although there are perhaps no solutions that could resolve these issues in our lifetime, there are certainly actions that can inflame and worsen the region. Iraq is a clear example of the latter (especially the manner in which it was carried out).

the real solution is secularization and consumerism. As long as they read the whole koran and believe it we're in trouble.

[Bronx33]

Interesting topics...

http://www.islamfortoday.com/fundamnetalism.htm

[watermock]

Historical books have no bearing here...this is just plain rioting with lead pipes and knives...in the 21'st century, not the second.

WTF is wrong with you people?

[sirhcyennek81]

"you people" I hate sentences that start with, or include you people. Them people is ok, but you people...grrr


:Broncos:

[epicSocialism4tw]

Interesting topics...

http://www.islamfortoday.com/fundamnetalism.htm


I like this one:

A Memo to American Muslims
"It is time that we Muslims acknowledge that the freedoms we enjoy in the US are more desirable to us than superficial solidarity with the Muslim World. If you disagree, then prove it by packing your bags and going to whichever Muslim country you identify with."
Dr. M. A. Muqtedar Khan

[RMT]

I like this one:

A Memo to American Muslims
"It is time that we Muslims acknowledge that the freedoms we enjoy in the US are more desirable to us than superficial solidarity with the Muslim World. If you disagree, then prove it by packing your bags and going to whichever Muslim country you identify with."
Dr. M. A. Muqtedar Khan

A disgusting one in there is about "religious leaders" forcing 15 schoolage girls into a burning building because they weren't wearing their head scarves.

[Bronx33]

I like this one:

A Memo to American Muslims
"It is time that we Muslims acknowledge that the freedoms we enjoy in the US are more desirable to us than superficial solidarity with the Muslim World. If you disagree, then prove it by packing your bags and going to whichever Muslim country you identify with."
Dr. M. A. Muqtedar Khan


I saw that name and did a search on Dr. M. A. Muqtedar Khan

http://www.islamfortoday.com/khan.htm





Iam kinda interested if this guy is still active today? and he is http://www.glocaleye.org/

[Merlin]

A disgusting one in there is about "religious leaders" forcing 15 schoolage girls into a burning building because they weren't wearing their head scarves.
I think that was in Saudi Arabia. The media didn't give it much attention here. I guess being our "friend" has benefits. ::)

[sirhcyennek81]

Nazi Germany was the UK's "friend"...until the day came where they werent. One day, saudi arabia will have a problem, and it may be courtesy of the US Military. Teddy Roosevelt had a great line about the US, that we were alot like the Grizzly bear, always alone; and that while the world will never love us, these bastards would respect us, maybe grow to fear us. The fact we attract so much attention from the ME is that they are found wanting when in comparison to the US, we epitomize everything the west evolved into. The ME and North Africa are stuck, with a faith that needs to modernize. Islamic modernization will burn anything close to it, africa, europe and western asia is going to be a hurricane of fire in the next century.

:Broncos:

[epicSocialism4tw]

I think that was in Saudi Arabia. The media didn't give it much attention here. I guess being our "friend" has benefits. ::)


And it shouldnt? So, we should invade Saudi Arabia for their moral failures despite their being our only ally in the region beside Israel?

[watermock]

Good God....I thought I had allready lost my patience with these morons.

I wish I had hands on some real weapons....these idiots need a beat down...

[sirhcyennek81]

i suggested "accidentally" bombing the black meteorite in Mecca, but no one took me seriously.

:Broncos:

[watermock]

And it shouldnt? So, we should invade Saudi Arabia for their moral failures despite their being our only ally in the region beside Israel?

What exactly makes you think they are an ally other than to take our money and expect us to protect their Royal Butts?

[RMT]

i suggested "accidentally" bombing the black meteorite in Mecca, but no one took me seriously.

:Broncos:

I like that idea a lot.

[sirhcyennek81]

saudi arabia is an ally, because iraq and iran and syria were problems, and military presence in saud arabia would allow us to respond quickly to any offensive moves by any combination of the three. being that iraq has been toppled, and iran surrounded on 2 sides, having military bases in saudi arabia is losing regional importance.

:Broncos:

[watermock]

I'm a peacefull man, but this has gone far enough...

I don't want to say this...but it's time to lay down a big can of whoopass starting with Tehran...I can't believe we haven't taken out that site yet...

[watermock]

saudi arabia is an ally, because iraq and iran and syria were problems, and military presence in saud arabia would allow us to respond quickly to any offensive moves by any combination of the three. being that iraq has been toppled, and iran surrounded on 2 sides, having military bases in saudi arabia is losing regional importance.

:Broncos:

You know nothing...we were asked to leave Saudi years ago...we have no military there at all now, despite the fact we built an massive air base...there are no US planes there now.

[RMT]

I'm a peacefull man, but this has gone far enough...

I don't want to say this...but it's time to lay down a big can of whoopass starting with Tehran...I can't believe we haven't taken out that site yet...

I second that - heck, I even third that emotion.

[sirhcyennek81]

You know nothing...we were asked to leave Saudi years ago...we have no military there at all now.

i know nothing...we have an airforce base in saudi arabia mock. one of the reasons for osama's attack on 9/11 was the infidel's presence in saudi arabia. you could be right...but i doubt it.

:Broncos:

[watermock]

I say we send a B-2 in there and take out their nuke site...

[watermock]

i know nothing...we have an airforce base in saudi arabia mock. one of the reasons for osama's attack on 9/11 was the infidel's presence in saudi arabia. you could be right...but i doubt it.

:Broncos:

that air base was closed long ago. We were asked to leave. We have some stuff in UAE and Quatar/Bahrain in the gulf now...not positive...but our power is from the nuclear carriers...and destroyers that have cruise missles.

The persian gulf is shallow for subs...it's all problematic...I'm no expert, but carrier strength is the key, and we would need more than one...at least one in reserve in case we lost one...

I'm dead serious...this is becoming something that we have to snuff unfortunately IMO....

[sirhcyennek81]

http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2003/030430-psab01.htm

for once, Mock was right...i apologize.

:Broncos:

[Merlin]

And it shouldnt? So, we should invade Saudi Arabia for their moral failures despite their being our only ally in the region beside Israel?
I think you missed the jist of my post. It was a critique of the media, I'll refrain from commenting on the US gov't.

[watermock]

I don't know much dude...no apology needed...I generally just loaf in the OM...I know a little tho...

We have some pretty crafty soldiers who lurk around here...watch your step...

[sirhcyennek81]

my dad and brother are Marines. i know a little bit. not as much as i probably should, tho.

:Broncos:

[watermock]

kitty cat is addicted to the heated blanket and has no intention of roaming outside....

[watermock]

my dad and brother are Marines. i know a little bit. not as much as i probably should, tho.

:Broncos:

Tell them my gratitude.

[Bronx33]

that air base was closed long ago. We were asked to leave. We have some stuff in UAE and Quatar/Bahrain in the gulf now...not positive...but our power is from the nuclear carriers...and destroyers that have cruise missles.

The persian gulf is shallow for subs...it's all problematic...I'm no expert, but carrier strength is the key, and we would need more than one...at least one in reserve in case we lost one...

I'm dead serious...this is becoming something that we have to snuff unfortunately IMO....


http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/facility/sites.htm

[watermock]

A training base is not a base we control. That's just teaching them how to fly F-16's.

[Bronx33]

A training base is not a base we control. That's just teaching them how to fly F-16's.


I was more looking at Incirlik AB and Izmir AS ( Turkey)

[clean]

"Contrary to US policy during the Cold War when the US stationed hundreds of thousands of troops in Europe, the current Pentagon strategy is to have "long-term access" to bases, rather than a permanent presence. Thus, forces can be shifted among numerous accessible points to meet various "threats", rather than have a full complement of troops at a few permanent locations."

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/EF10Ak01.html

The article mentions that the US has access to bases or is looking to base troops in the following countries:

Bulgaria
Georgia
Kazakhstan
Kyrgystan
Romania
Tajikistan
Turkmenistan
Uzbekistan

While looking at the list, I'm reminded of who won the Cold War.

[epicSocialism4tw]

While looking at the list, I'm reminded of who won the Cold War.

Yep. Pretty nicely done. It's not often that you win a war against a world power without launching a physical offensive.

[watermock]

Sad thing is we have a KGB agent that is a prick running the place

[sirhcyennek81]

Yep. Pretty nicely done. It's not often that you win a war against a world power without launching a physical offensive.

Was a physical offensive, Reagan made war on every aspect of the Soviet culture, debased every accomplishment they made, and amped up our military production. Considering the actions of previous administrations, this shocked the hell out of the Soviets. Terror War dictates mobility, so long term leases on bases in central asia is a good thing.

:Broncos:

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Make sure we have film of them rioting so we know who they are.

And Bush better stay the hell out of Pakistan. All that would do is fire them up all over the globe again.

-----------------------------------------------------
Afghan cartoon protesters threaten to join al Qaeda
By Dawood Wafa

JALALABAD, Afghanistan (Reuters) - Hundreds of Afghans shouted support on Monday for
Osama bin Laden and threatened to join al Qaeda during a protest against cartoons of the Prophet Mohammad, while Pakistan Islamists vowed to broaden their campaign.

In an attempt to cool the controversy,
Pope Benedict said the world's religions and their symbols had to be respected.

The student protest against the cartoons in the eastern Afghan city of Jalalabad passed peacefully in contrast to a weekend of deadly rioting in several countries, including Nigeria, where 28 people were killed, and Libya where 11 died.

Two weeks ago in
Afghanistan, at least 10 people were killed in several days of protests over the cartoons but the demonstrations largely petered out after that.

On Monday, students gathered in the campus of the university in Jalalabad chanting "Death to Denmark," "Death to America" and "Death to France," a witness said.

They also chanted "Death to Karzai" and demanded President Hamid Karzai close the embassies of Denmark, the United States and France and expel their forces from Afghanistan.

"If they abuse the Prophet of Islam again we will all become al Qaeda," the students shouted.

In the Hindu kingdom of Nepal, about 5,000 Muslims marched through the western town of Nepalgunj and presented a memorandum to the chief bureaucrat of the town. "You can't insult the Islam. Punish the cartoonist," some of them shouted.

Cartoons first published in a Danish newspaper last year and reprinted in European papers have sparked worldwide protests by Muslims who believe it is blasphemous to depict the Prophet.

In the deadliest protests, at least 28 people died in riots in two Muslim states in northern Nigeria at the weekend.

A Red Cross official said on Monday the death toll from the riots in Maiduguri, where 21 people were killed, could rise further as some of the 207 people hurt were in critical condition. Troops patrolled the capital of the northeastern state of Borno to prevent further violence.

About a dozen churches, 200 shops, 50 houses and 100 vehicles were razed or vandalised by protesters in Maiduguri who ran wild after police fired teargas to disperse them.

MORE PAKISTAN PROTESTS

Pakistan's main Islamist alliance, the Muttahida Majlis-i-Amal (MMA), said on Monday it would broaden its campaign. Five people died in protests in Pakistan last week.

Qazi Hussain Ahmed, president of the MMA, was held under house arrest in Lahore at the weekend to prevent him leading a rally in the capital Islamabad on Sunday.

After his release on Monday he called publication of the cartoons in European newspapers "part of the clash of civilisations led by (U.S. President George W.) Bush."

"Therefore our movement is against Bush as well as against Mush," he told a news briefing, referring to Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf, a key ally in Bush's war on terrorism.

A countrywide protest was planned for Friday, another in Lahore on Sunday and a nationwide general strike on March 3.

Further protests are planned and could coincide with a visit to Pakistan by Bush, expected in early March, although no dates for this visit have yet been announced.
(CONTINUED)
http://tinyurl.com/evqru

[watermock]

There is an easy solution to this problem. We have several carriers in reserve.

I go beat down mode...

"Peace in our time" worked well for Britan...