Bushco wins, Senate gives up

[Jesterhole]

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/021706J.shtml

Sad day in America when the president can break the law, admit it, continue to do so, and the Senate won't look into it. our Nation's only hope is to elect a democratic majority. With Rep's running the show, this administration will never be held to account for anything. I honestly think Bush could do anything and get away with it now. Anything.

"Washington - The Senate Intelligence Committee decided today not to investigate President Bush's domestic surveillance program, at least for the time being.

"I believe that such an investigation is currently unwarranted and would be detrimental to this highly classified program," Senator Pat Roberts, Republican of Kansas and chairman of the panel, said this afternoon following a closed session.

While Mr. Roberts's announcement signaled that the administration's eavesdropping program would not be subject to Senate scrutiny, at least for the time being, there was no guarantee that the House would not go ahead with an inquiry of its own.

Mr. Roberts said "an agreement in principle" had been reached with the administration whereby lawmakers would be given more information on the surveillance operation run by the National Security Agency.

"The details of this agreement will take some time to work out," Mr. Roberts said. But the committee's ranking Democrat, John D. Rockefeller IV of West Virginia, was clearly unhappy after the meeting and said it made no sense to pursue legislation when the full details of the surveillance program were not known. Mr. Roberts said Mr. Rockefeller's proposal for an investigation would be reconsidered when the committee reconvenes on March 7.

"If by that time we have reached no detailed accommodation with the administration concerning the committee's oversight role, it is possible that the committee may vote to conduct an inquiry into the program," Mr. Roberts said. He added, "The administration has come a long way in the last month. I am optimistic that we will have an agreement before the committee meets again."

[Antilles]

Isn't it just the Intelligence Committee? I believe the Judicial Committee has already begun an investigation. Plus there is always the House. What remains to be seen is whether these other bodies also "decide" that an investigation isn't warranted.

[Hotrod]

I wanna see the link where Bush said what he is doing is illegal.

[Garcia Bronco]

Here's the reason...because it's not illegal. If anybody can prove anything was done for political gain then burn them all...but if it's for national security I've got no problem with it. I've said that from the begining.

[Hotrod]

Here's the reason...because it's not illegal. .

Bingo we have a winner!

:thumbs:

[Jesterhole]

Here's the reason...because it's not illegal. If anybody can prove anything was done for political gain then burn them all...but if it's for national security I've got no problem with it. I've said that from the begining.

We have a law saying that it is 'the exclusive' way to conduct wiretaps on domestic soil. Bush ignored that law, and said he has the constitutional authority to conduct wiretaps on his own, which is clearly in disregard to the law. If the Congress passes a law in some area, the president can't possibly claim some inherit authority in that area that overrides a written law. That would make the President a King, which I'm sure some of you would love.

We're all for national security. But what we can't have is a President setting a precedent of breaking the law when they don't like the laws we have in place. BushCo thought FISA was cumbersome, so he went around it. You don't get to do that in this country.

If this stands, I promise you that someone you really don't like will be in power in the future, and they'll be able to break any law they don't like in the name of 'The Never Ending War of Terror'.

Why don't you Bush huggers understand that?! This is not about spying on terrorists. This is about following the laws of the country.

[Hotrod]

We have a law saying that it is 'the exclusive' way to conduct wiretaps on domestic soil. Bush ignored that law, and said he has the constitutional authority to conduct wiretaps on his own, which is clearly in disregard to the law. If the Congress passes a law in some area, the president can't possibly claim some inherit authority in that area that overrides a written law. That would make the President a King, which I'm sure some of you would love.

We're all for national security. But what we can't have is a President setting a precedent of breaking the law when they don't like the laws we have in place. BushCo thought FISA was cumbersome, so he went around it. You don't get to do that in this country.

If this stands, I promise you that someone you really don't like will be in power in the future, and they'll be able to break any law they don't like in the name of 'The Never Ending War of Terror'.

Why don't you Bush huggers understand that?! This is not about spying on terrorists. This is about following the laws of the country.

Um are the calls not originating outside the country???

[Jesterhole]

...but if it's for national security I've got no problem with it. I've said that from the begining.

Karl Rove converts another!

[Jesterhole]

Um are the calls not originating outside the country???

One person is outside the country, one is inside. Inside meaning, they are on domestic soil.

Yes, Rove already tried that one and it doesn't work. In fact, it makes the problem worse.

If Osama is in New York, and called Atta in Boston, this illegal program wouldn't be able to monitor that. So if the purpose of the program is really to protect us all, why not monitor all calls?

A big hypocritical point in BushCo's lame argument. Gonzo was asked that during his hearing, and hid under his desk until they asked another question.

[Hotrod]

One person is outside the country, one is inside. Inside meaning, they are on domestic soil.

Yes, Rove already tried that one and it doesn't work. In fact, it makes the problem worse.

If Osama is in New York, and called Atta in Boston, this illegal program wouldn't be able to monitor that. So if the purpose of the program is really to protect us all, why not monitor all calls?

A big hypocritical point in BushCo's lame argument. Gonzo was asked that during his hearing, and hid under his desk until they asked another question.

Because that would be illegal. I just dont have a problem with call that come from the M.E. being tapped. Now if they were tapping local to local calls then theres a BIG problem.

[Garcia Bronco]

We have a law saying that it is 'the exclusive' way to conduct wiretaps on domestic soil. Bush ignored that law, and said he has the constitutional authority to conduct wiretaps on his own, which is clearing in disregard to the law.

We're all for national security. But what we can't have is a President setting a precedent of breaking the law when they don't like the laws we have in place. BushCo thought FISA was cumbersome, so he went around it. You don't get to do that in this country.

If this stands, I promise you that someone you really don't like will be in power in the future, and they'll be able to break any law they don't like in the name of 'The Never Ending War of Terror'.

Why don't you Bush huggers understand that?! This is not about spying on terrorists. This is about following the laws of the country.


Look dude...you can hold up all the laws you want. At the end of the day...we have to do what makes sense to protect people. If that means an officer of the law has to listen in to a conversation on the fly then we have to do it. Rules are great unless they don't make sense. We are all faced with these same propostions each day.

[Rohirrim]

I'm sick of all this discussion. Bush is trying his damnedest to save us from the scourge of terrorism. The Constitution is obviously an obstacle to our security! And it's not just terrorists. No. It's socialists and communists and liberals. Thank God Bush and Gonzales were able to add environmentalists under the term "terrorists." In the middle of our most dangerous moment as a society, when rugheads in caves are plotting to take over our country and replace all our churches with mosques, these idiots come around yowling about global warming - something that doesn't even exist! Damnit! We need protection! Screw the Constitution! Kill all the terrorists, socialists, communists, liberals, environmentalists and every body else who isn't a God fearing American. Hell, throw in the Jews too. Kill 'em all. Let's make America Christian and white, like it used to be. Like the founding fathers intended it to be.

[Jesterhole]

Because that would be illegal. I just dont have a problem with call that come from the M.E. being tapped. Now if they were tapping local to local calls then theres a BIG problem.

If an American is on US soil and their phone is tapped without a warrant, it's illegal. The FISA law makes that very clear. It doesn't matter if they are talking to Boston, Budapest or the North Pole. They are a US person on US soil and therefore are under protection from warrantless searches.

I'm all for changing the law to make this type of operation legal. Hell, it would a crime to NOT use our vast information technology to help combat terrorism.

The key issue here is presidential authority. BushCo has dangerously tipped the balanced towards executive power, and unless Congress reels him in, the very foundation of our great nation is at risk.

[Hotrod]

I'm sick of all this discussion. Bush is trying his damnedest to save us from the scourge of terrorism. The Constitution is obviously an obstacle to our security! And it's not just terrorists. No. It's socialists and communists and liberals. Thank God Bush and Gonzales were able to add environmentalists under the term "terrorists." In the middle of our most dangerous moment as a society, when rugheads in caves are plotting to take over our country and replace all our churches with mosques, these idiots come around yowling about global warming - something that doesn't even exist! Damnit! We need protection! Screw the Constitution! Kill all the terrorists, socialists, communists, liberals, environmentalists and every body else who isn't a God fearing American. Hell, throw in the Jews too. Kill 'em all. Let's make America Christian and white, like it used to be. Like the founding fathers intended it to be.

Wow I was pretty much with you until the killing everybody ending there.

[Rohirrim]

Wow I was pretty much with you until the killing everybody ending there.

Spooky, ain't it? ;D

At one point in time, the majority of the German people thought Adolph was a great guy. The saviour of the German people. Totalitarianism doesn't descend on you one morning. It creeps in, day by day.

[Jesterhole]

Look dude...you can hold up all the laws you want. At the end of the day...we have to do what makes sense to protect people. If that means an officer of the law has to listen in to a conversation on the fly then we have to do it. Rules are great unless they don't make sense. We are all faced with these same propostions each day.

You sir, have a dangerous opinion. I hope to God you are some 20 something college kid, and not a grown rational man with this opinion.

We have a country of laws. Everyone obeys them. If we need to change the laws to reflect current times and trials, fine. The Founding Father's greatest achievements was making our constitution adaptable.

But you don't get to disregard laws, especially when you are the President. This was not some 24 episode where there was a nuclear attack about to happen. This is a systematic expansion of presidential authority in total disregard to law.

The President and the AG both have said Congress doesn't have the power to tell him to stop. This is a huge issue, and one that will effect many generations of Americans.

[Garcia Bronco]

I'm sick of all this discussion. Bush is trying his damnedest to save us from the scourge of terrorism. The Constitution is obviously an obstacle to our security! And it's not just terrorists. No. It's socialists and communists and liberals. Thank God Bush and Gonzales were able to add environmentalists under the term "terrorists." In the middle of our most dangerous moment as a society, when rugheads in caves are plotting to take over our country and replace all our churches with mosques, these idiots come around yowling about global warming - something that doesn't even exist! Damnit! We need protection! Screw the Constitution! Kill all the terrorists, socialists, communists, liberals, environmentalists and every body else who isn't a God fearing American. Hell, throw in the Jews too. Kill 'em all. Let's make America Christian and white, like it used to be. Like the founding fathers intended it to be.


I really don't think people understand what many of these groups do behind the scenes and it's precisely why they all need to be investigated to see exactly what they're up to.

[Hotrod]

Does anyone else sometimes wanna just burry their heads in the sand? Im thinking about just building a wall around my property outside of town and stocking up on food/ammo.......oh wait someone tried that and got burned down ;)

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Bingo we have a winner!

:thumbs:
Actually, Bush IS going to be investigated by congress for ILLEGALLY spying on Americans. Not only that but the Bush administration is and will be sued by various organizations for violating American's rights and sh*tting on the U.S. Constitution.

Leaders of the House Intelligence Committee said Thursday that they had agreed to open a Congressional inquiry prompted by the Bush administration's domestic surveillance program. But a dispute immediately broke out among committee Republicans over the scope of the inquiry.
http://tinyurl.com/9exua

[Garcia Bronco]

You sir, have a dangerous opinion. I hope to God you are some 20 something college kid, and not a grown rational man with this opinion.

We have a country of laws. Everyone obeys them. If we need to change the laws to reflect current times and trials, fine. The Founding Father's greatest achievements was making our constitution adaptable.

But you don't get to disregard laws, especially when you are the President. This was not some 24 episode where there was a nuclear attack about to happen. This is a systematic expansion of presidential authority in total disregard to law.

The President and the AG both have said Congress doesn't have the power to tell him to stop. This is a huge issue, and one that will effect many generations of Americans.

No the beauty of it is the matter will be settled in a civilized manner as opposed to blowing the other guy off the face of the planet. The beauty of our government is that there is a change a power every 4 to 8 years without bloodshed...that's what seperates us from the other animals. There is a debate as to whether the executive branch has the right to do this...and it will play itself out. In the mean time, we need to do what's right to protect the masses and any "Law" to stop it is trivial when you're talking about the balance of the lives of American Citizens.

[Rohirrim]

Caligula saw what a bunch of worthless, money grubbing, power-hungry cowards the Roman Senate contained so he made his horse, Incitatus, a Senator. I think Incitatus would fit right in with our Senate. I always figured the GOP would choose party over country. I just didn't think they'd be so blatant about it.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

. In the mean time, we need to do what's right to protect the masses and any "Law" to stop it is trivial when you're talking about the balance of the lives of American Citizens.

Yeah, why are people so trivial over their rights being trampled on and the commander in chief circumventing the U.S. Constitution? What's wrong with people, why can't they act like sheep?

[Traveler]

No the beauty of it is the matter will be settled in a civilized manner as opposed to blowing the other guy off the face of the planet. The beauty of our government is that there is a change a power every 4 to 8 years without bloodshed...that's what seperates us from the other animals. There is a debate as to whether the executive branch has the right to do this...and it will play itself out. In the mean time, we need to do what's right to protect the masses and any "Law" to stop it is trivial when you're talking about the balance of the lives of American Citizens.


This line of thinking is just plain scary dude!

[Rohirrim]

I really don't think people understand what many of these groups do behind the scenes and it's precisely why they all need to be investigated to see exactly what they're up to.

That's all well and good, but someday, when they finally get around to it, they'll want to come over to your house and see what you're up to.

[GonzoLays]

Look dude...you can hold up all the laws you want. At the end of the day...we have to do what makes sense to protect people. If that means an officer of the law has to listen in to a conversation on the fly then we have to do it. Rules are great unless they don't make sense. We are all faced with these same propostions each day.

You live in a scary little world if you think illegal wiretapping and losing our civil liberties will prevent "terrorist" attacks. All we have as citizens of this country is our civil liberties which make us "free." You take away our rights as citizens to do our daily business without someone spying on us you have tyranny. Plain and simple.

[GonzoLays]

I really don't think people understand what many of these groups do behind the scenes and it's precisely why they all need to be investigated to see exactly what they're up to.

You must be talking about the CIA which has been involved in the illegal drug trade (iran contra), putting viscous dictators in power (saddam hussien) and all in all is ABOVE THE LAW in the United States. Thats a group that needs to be looked into.

[Hotrod]

Spooky, ain't it? ;D

At one point in time, the majority of the German people thought Adolph was a great guy. The saviour of the German people. Totalitarianism doesn't descend on you one morning. It creeps in, day by day.

LOL oh thank goodness you were kinda freaking me out there for a second. Ha!

[alkemical]

1984 is a great book to read right now, so is 'brave new world' - both are just different sides of the same coin.

[clarker]

You live in a scary little world if you think illegal wiretapping and losing our civil liberties will prevent "terrorist" attacks. All we have as citizens of this country is our civil liberties which make us "free." You take away our rights as citizens to do our daily business without someone spying on us you have tyranny. Plain and simple.I understand your fear, but you have to admit that is possible that terrorist could talk to and get help from U.S. citizens or people from other countries that are here by leagal means.

I can understand people being upset about it being done with out warrents, but some people don't think it should be done at all. I think that is crazy.

Remember that all the bombers in the attacks in London were all British citizens.

To think you can ingnore it is crazy if you ask me. And it is my guess that the people who would bitch the most if a attack could have been prevented by spying on over seas calls, which is what this is, would be the people attacking Bush the most.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

I understand your fear, but you have to admit that is possible that terrorist could talk to and get help from U.S. citizens or people from other countries that are here by leagal means.

I can understand people being upset about it being done with out warrents, but some people don't think it should be done at all. I think that is crazy.

Remember that all the bombers in the attacks in London were all British citizens.

To think you can ingnore it is crazy if you ask me. And it is my guess that the people who would b**** the most if a attack could have been prevented by spying on over seas calls, which is what this is, would be the people attacking Bush the most.

I haven't heard ONE person suggesting we shouldn't watch suspected activity. The problem is when it's done with no oversight, checks and balances (illegally).

[GonzoLays]

Actually with all the sheep running around this country Animal Farm would be more of an appropriate book.

The sheep of the book say, "four legs good, two legs bad!"

The sheep of today say, "Four more years! Four more years!"

The sheep defended Napoleon no matter what lie was told or atrocity that occurred. Sounds eerily similar to people of this country today. For the Republicans, Bush cannot do any wrong because he said he is not doing wrong. That is all they need. For the Democrats, its the same story with Bill Clinton.

Sheep will always be sheep. They will always fall for any lie or mistruth that spews out of their respective parties mouth.

[enjolras]

Giving everyone id cards and a 8:00 PM shoot-on-site curfew would probably make us safer...

Makes sense to me.

[clarker]

I haven't heard ONE person suggesting we shouldn't watch suspected activity. The problem is when it's done with no oversight, checks and balances (illegally).Well this is not the only place I talk about these things and I have heard people say it.

Also I believe the leadership of the Senate Intellingence commity, including some Dems, knew about if for 2-3 years. If they failed to excute their oversight duties you should be upset with them.

[alkemical]

not to mention i think you should be able to pull your own 'file'

[Hotrod]

Giving everyone id cards and a 8:00 PM shoot-on-site curfew would probably make us safer...

Makes sense to me.

Im getting older 8PM might be ok with me ;D

[REB]

Here's the reason...because it's not illegal. If anybody can prove anything was done for political gain then burn them all...but if it's for national security I've got no problem with it. I've said that from the begining.

That's how I feel. To me it seems like if your not plotting a murder, kidnapping, terrorist attack etc.. then why care if an FBI agent or whoever is listening to your conversation? We're living in a different world now with terrorist's secretly plotting more destruction on our country. If even 1 terrorist attack can be stopped because of a wire tap then I say good job to the government that is obligated by the constitution to protect American citizens.

[Rohirrim]

“There is a new announcement from the Department of Homeland Security. We have received credible information that massive terrorist attacks against the United States have been planned over the next one year period. In the interests of national security, the President has ordered a state of martial law. The American people should be aware that these insidious cells are already in the United States plotting our destruction. The Department of Homeland Security will begin issuing personal ID cards to ensure the safety of the American people from attacks by weapons of mass destruction. Everything is being done to ensure that we are protected and safe from those who would destroy us because of our beliefs and our American way of life. All communications will be monitored in an effort to discover the location of terrorist cells within the country. All Americans are encouraged to report anything out of the ordinary to their local FBI office, such as anti-American comments or suspicious gatherings or activities. For a limited period of time, all elections are cancelled.”

That’s how Hitler did it.

[GonzoLays]

It is hilarious to me in a country like ours with government run amok in which the very own citizens who put our leaders in power do not hold them accountable for ANYTHING yet are willing to give more power to the same group of people who put us in the very position we are in today? How stupid are we?

[alkemical]

when those in power do not fear us, but fear of loosing their power - we have begun to tread on dangerous ground.

[GonzoLays]

We do not hold our politicians accountable! They lie, we know it, they know it and nobody does anything about it! No weapons of mass destruction? No problem! Protect us! Did Bill Clinton have sexual relations with Monica Lewinsky? No problem! Protect us! Did Tom Delay pay his family thousands of dollars for jobs that did not warrant the salary that was received from public donations? No problem! Protect us!

I swear to God, Bill Frist could walk down Wall Street shooting puppies in the head with a AK47 and we wouldn't do anything about it.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

That's how I feel. To me it seems like if your not plotting a murder, kidnapping, terrorist attack etc.. then why care if an FBI agent or whoever is listening to your conversation? We're living in a different world now with terrorist's secretly plotting more destruction on our country. If even 1 terrorist attack can be stopped because of a wire tap then I say good job to the government that is obligated by the constitution to protect American citizens.

If there is no oversight or responsibilty, how do you know WHAT or WHO they are listening to and watching?
You gonna trust the government to tell you the truth?

[Garcia Bronco]

This line of thinking is just plain scary dude!


All I'm saying is you follow the rules until the rules don't work.

[REB]

If there is no oversight or responsibilty, how do you WHAT or WHO they are listening to and watching?
You gonna trust the government to tell you the truth?

I don't have a problem with oversight. I believe in checks and balances.

[Garcia Bronco]

You live in a scary little world if you think illegal wiretapping and losing our civil liberties will prevent "terrorist" attacks. All we have as citizens of this country is our civil liberties which make us "free." You take away our rights as citizens to do our daily business without someone spying on us you have tyranny. Plain and simple.

Tell me...what right has been taken away?

[Garcia Bronco]

You must be talking about the CIA which has been involved in the illegal drug trade (iran contra), putting viscous dictators in power (saddam hussien) and all in all is ABOVE THE LAW in the United States. Thats a group that needs to be looked into.


I agree with you

[Rohirrim]

Oh yeah. I forgot the most important part:

“In the interests of continued national security, and by a majority vote of Congress and the Supreme Court, President George W. Bush will remain in the office of U.S. President until such a time as security is restored.”

[Traveler]

All I'm saying is you follow the rules until the rules don't work.


And who decides if/when the rules don't work? The decision not to follow the rules are based on what?

[spdirty]

Wow I was pretty much with you until the killing everybody ending there.

Me too...but instead of killing em, we ought to just put em in Concentra...err, happy camps.:D

[spdirty]

Wow I was pretty much with you until the killing everybody ending there.

Me too...but instead of killing em, we ought to just put em in Concentra...err, happy camps.:D

[Mile High Shack]

Oh yeah. I forgot the most important part:

“In the interests of continued national security, and by a majority vote of Congress and the Supreme Court, President George W. Bush will remain in the office of U.S. President until such a time as security is restored.”

the minute that happens, is the minute I start believing all you far left wackos

[alkemical]

the minute that happens, is the minute I start believing all you far left wackos

*cue organ music*

then it will be too late

[Hotrod]

“There is a new announcement from the Department of Homeland Security. We have received credible information that massive terrorist attacks against the United States have been planned over the next one year period. In the interests of national security, the President has ordered a state of martial law. The American people should be aware that these insidious cells are already in the United States plotting our destruction. The Department of Homeland Security will begin issuing personal ID cards to ensure the safety of the American people from attacks by weapons of mass destruction. Everything is being done to ensure that we are protected and safe from those who would destroy us because of our beliefs and our American way of life. All communications will be monitored in an effort to discover the location of terrorist cells within the country. All Americans are encouraged to report anything out of the ordinary to their local FBI office, such as anti-American comments or suspicious gatherings or activities. For a limited period of time, all elections are cancelled.”

That’s how Hitler did it.

LOL Now your reaching a bit far

[Hotrod]

Oh yeah. I forgot the most important part:

“In the interests of continued national security, and by a majority vote of Congress and the Supreme Court, President George W. Bush will remain in the office of U.S. President until such a time as security is restored.”

Do you truely believe the people would stand for something like that? Come on being careful and watchful are one thing but seriously

[Hotrod]

*cue organ music*

then it will be too late

To a degree your correct but too late for what. Do you think Americas military sons & daughters would blindly follow orders to start shooting the millions who would surely take to the streets in that event???

[Mile High Shack]

To a degree your correct but too late for what. Do you think Americas military sons & daughters would blindly follow orders to start shooting the millions who would surely take to the streets in that event???

exactly

no freakin' way even I, a conservative by nature would put up with anyone who did that

[alkemical]

why not?

it's worked so well in the past.

[Rohirrim]

LOL Now your reaching a bit far

I'd be willing to bet any amount that 30% of the American population, right now, would go along with it.

[Hotrod]

I'd be willing to bet any amount that 30% of the American population, right now, would go along with it.

Ive got 70% and my gun safe that says if fails ;D

[Mile High Shack]

why not?

it's worked so well in the past.

in america?

when

[Rohirrim]

Do you truely believe the people would stand for something like that? Come on being careful and watchful are one thing but seriously

Did you ever see the film "Shoah?" It's like a six or seven hour documentary on the holocaust. Amazing film, if you can stand to watch for that long. Some of the footage is gruesome. Some of it is mind-boggling, like interviews with the Poles who moved into the homes of the Jews who were removed to the camps. Their rationalizations are remarkable. Many of those whose homes they took they had known for years, had gone to school with, had played with.

But even more interesting was one old Jew who described how he was on a street sweeping detail in Berlin, wearing the cloth Star of David on his lapel, when Hitler rode by in a grand, Nazi parade. The storm troopers were marching in unison, the music was playing, the people were throwing flowers, slogans were pouring from loudspeakers, and the people along the street were almost hysterical with patriotic, nationalistic furor. You know what this old Jew said? He said, "It took everything I had not to join in the salute and shout 'Heil, Hitler!'."

It's easy.

[Mile High Shack]

Did you ever see the film "Shoah?" It's like a six or seven hour documentary on the holocaust. Amazing film, if you can stand to watch for that long. Some of the footage is gruesome. Some of it is mind-boggling, like interviews with the Poles who moved into the homes of the Jews who were removed to the camps. Their rationalizations are remarkable. Many of those whose homes they took they had known for years, had gone to school with, had played with.

But even more interesting was one old Jew who described how he was on a street sweeping detail in Berlin, wearing the cloth Star of David on his lapel, when Hitler rode by in a grand, Nazi parade. The storm troopers were marching in unison, the music was playing, the people were throwing flowers, slogans were pouring from loudspeakers, and the people along the street were almost hysterical with patriotic, nationalistic furor. You know what this old Jew said? He said, "It took everything I had not to join in the salute and shout 'Heil, Hitler!'."

It's easy.

you sure have a low opinion of americans

[alkemical]

in america?

when


not america dingas - although mcarthyism came close -

what you don't think the german's said the same things?

[Hotrod]

not america dingas - although mcarthyism came close -

what you don't think the german's said the same things?

Shhhh dont tell anyone but the Germans of the time were not exactly living the life todays American is. They needed/wanted huge dramatic change. They were tired of buying a loaf of bread for a left nut.

[Rohirrim]

you sure have a low opinion of americans

People are people.

[Mile High Shack]

Shhhh dont tell anyone but the Germans of the time were not exactly living the life todays American is. They needed/wanted huge dramatic change. They were tired of buying a loaf of bread for a left nut.

exactly

the german people were repressed after WWI and the sanctions that were imposed on them

I don't see the same set of circumstance

amesj, you are just way off on this one

[Rascal]

Shhhh dont tell anyone but the Germans of the time were not exactly living the life todays American is. They needed/wanted huge dramatic change. They were tired of buying a loaf of bread for a left nut.

And burning their money as firewood as it was so worthless.

[Mile High Shack]

People are people.

as Hotrod pointed out, a HUGE difference of circumstances

[alkemical]

yeah, we just need another good terror attack to dump our econ.

[Mile High Shack]

yeah, we just need another good terror attack to dump our econ.

you are a smart guy

it's going to take more than that to make America's economy like pre-WW2's German economy

[Hotrod]

yeah, we just need another good terror attack to dump our econ.

It would take more then that IMO but just incase I think we should be wire tapping incoming calls to to be safe :)

I kill myself sometime ;)

[TheDave]

Just to give a little perspective on the whole we are not safe B.S.

Odds that you will die by:

1 in 3,700,000 Shark Attack
1 in 410,000 Grizzly bear attack
1 in 88,000 of a terrorist attack
1 in 55,928 of death by lightening
1 in 40,000 of an arline crash
1 in 20,605 by your clothes igniting

So while the odds of Osama getting me are greater than smokey the bear or Jaws... can we atleast wait until the chance of terrorism is greater than being hit and killed by lightning before we give up all of our civil liberties

[alkemical]

I don't think it would take that much to be honest. our econ is not as strong as we think as of right now. It's still shakey -

Look - it's not that difficult to get our gov't to a totalitarian society. it's already most of the way there. For instance, we have gov't agencies buying time on news outlets to 'push' their news. that's gov't propoganda right there, that's funded via taxpayers.

I pay upwards of 42% of my total pay in some tax (one way or another) -

With the increases measures of intrusion on my personal life - or the possible fed. regulation of the internet (e-annoycance, go to jail, etc) - the reigns are being pulled in, and to me it's more dangerous with the younger and younger generations who are being condition to understand that cameras everywhere, biometric security, etc etc are just the norm.

Working in the IT world, it is not hard, or far to fathom how the use of RFID, coupled with your GPS cellphone (using marketing to coherce people into acceptance is very 'huxley').


It's not as 'far' as you think, nor is it as 'close' as i say it is. however, i tend to look at the 'worst' case - for i don't ever trust the gov't to repeal, or return to it's constitutional roots. Someone, somewhere has to make a stand, draw a line in the sand and say that it's going to far.

[REB]

You guys better hush. I'm "moniter" ing this conversation... :)

[alkemical]

Just to give a little perspective on the whole we are not safe B.S.

Odds that you will die by:

1 in 3,700,000 Shark Attack
1 in 410,000 Grizzly bear attack
1 in 88,000 of a terrorist attack
1 in 55,928 of death by lightening
1 in 40,000 of an arline crash
1 in 20,605 by your clothes igniting

So while the odds of Osama getting me are greater than smokey the bear or Jaws... can we atleast wait until the chance of terrorism is greater than being hit and killed by lightning before we give up all of our civil liberties


that's my crux of the argument dave - i live near an airport and a 'in/famous' nuke plant - i have no fear of terrorists here. "maybe i should" -

but the sad thing is if you will - i fear the gov't more than osoma

[Hotrod]

I don't think it would take that much to be honest. our econ is not as strong as we think as of right now. It's still shakey -

Look - it's not that difficult to get our gov't to a totalitarian society. it's already most of the way there. For instance, we have gov't agencies buying time on news outlets to 'push' their news. that's gov't propoganda right there, that's funded via taxpayers.

I pay upwards of 42% of my total pay in some tax (one way or another) -

With the increases measures of intrusion on my personal life - or the possible fed. regulation of the internet (e-annoycance, go to jail, etc) - the reigns are being pulled in, and to me it's more dangerous with the younger and younger generations who are being condition to understand that cameras everywhere, biometric security, etc etc are just the norm.

Working in the IT world, it is not hard, or far to fathom how the use of RFID, coupled with your GPS cellphone (using marketing to coherce people into acceptance is very 'huxley').


It's not as 'far' as you think, nor is it as 'close' as i say it is. however, i tend to look at the 'worst' case - for i don't ever trust the gov't to repeal, or return to it's constitutional roots. Someone, somewhere has to make a stand, draw a line in the sand and say that it's going to far.

In all honesty and fairness I do tend to agree with what you posted here. Just like in 99.9999% of the debate threads on here the truth is probebly somewhere in the middle. Do I truely like the idea of Bush/government tapping phones without a 'check/balance system' no I dont but I dont think its as bad as some try to make it out to be.

I know I know Im about to go to far and scare you away but many of your fears were written about and fore told of in a book written along long time ago.

[TheDave]

that's my crux of the argument dave - i live near an airport and a 'in/famous' nuke plant - i have no fear of terrorists here. "maybe i should" -

but the sad thing is if you will - i fear the gov't more than osoma

Nah your fine... Assuming you drive a car the odds of you being mangled in a vehicle are 1 in 88. Trust me, Spiders ford will get you well before osama or Bush does...

by the way i still love that sig.:thumbsup:

[Hotrod]

Nah your fine... Assuming you drive a car the odds of you being mangled in a vehicle are 1 in 88. Trust me, Spiders ford will get you well before osama or Bush does...

by the way i still love that sig.:thumbsup:

Couple of things Dave

1. Spider and his ford are harmless he cant keep that pile of junk running and on the road

2. Where do you get those stats. I find it kind of hard to believe your chances are 1/88 of getting mangled in a car. If that were true would there not be a ton of people running around with no legs and what not??? (running around no legs Ha! ok is it 5 yet ;D)

[alkemical]

Nah your fine... Assuming you drive a car the odds of you being mangled in a vehicle are 1 in 88. Trust me, Spiders ford will get you well before osama or Bush does...

by the way i still love that sig.:thumbsup:


lol - I hear ya though man. I drove back monday from that Snow storm in the NE here - took me 3.5 hrs to go from hartford, CN to NYC on i95 - i thought a few times i was going to end up as road salad.

thanks for the props on my sig. I'm not sure which one said it first - but i'm very fond of regardie and if old calvin said it - it's not a bad thing to say.

Joe Coleman is a pretty crazy artist too - search him out some time (or buy the disinfo dvd's - can be found out suprise: www.disinfo.com) :)

[Mile High Shack]

lol - I hear ya though man. I drove back monday from that Snow storm in the NE here - took me 3.5 hrs to go from hartford, CN to NYC on i95 - i thought a few times i was going to end up as road salad.

OT, but.....so should I feel guilty if the roads are icy and I delay my trip to see my grandma (who wants to see her new great granddaughter) for a couple of weeks?

[REB]

Couple of things Dave

1. Spider and his ford are harmless he cant keep that pile of junk running and on the road

2. Where do you get those stats. I find it kind of hard to believe your chances are 1/88 of getting mangled in a car. If that were true would there not be a ton of people running around with no legs and what not??? (running around no legs Ha! ok is it 5 yet ;D)

Hilarious! Really. The only way Spide's gonna hurt somebody with a ford is if it's like that one commercial where the guy goes long for the football and slams into the car.

[alkemical]

In all honesty and fairness I do tend to agree with what you posted here. Just like in 99.9999% of the debate threads on here the truth is probebly somewhere in the middle. Do I truely like the idea of Bush/government tapping phones without a 'check/balance system' no I dont but I dont think its as bad as some try to make it out to be.

I know I know Im about to go to far and scare you away but many of your fears were written about and fore told of in a book written along long time ago.


maybe hotrod - In short, the correct question isn't: "If you haven't done anything wrong, why do you care?" Rather, it is: "If I haven't done anything wrong, what right do you have?"

[TheDave]

Couple of things Dave

1. Spider and his ford are harmless he cant keep that pile of junk running and on the road

2. Where do you get those stats. I find it kind of hard to believe your chances are 1/88 of getting mangled in a car. If that were true would there not be a ton of people running around with no legs and what not??? (running around no legs Ha! ok is it 5 yet ;D)

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0846/is_10_23/ai_n6092137/pg_2

by mangled i meant die... sorry 'bout that. and yes your right Spider's Ford is not a threat to amesj523... i meant to type truck (think he said he drive's an International)

[Rohirrim]

as Hotrod pointed out, a HUGE difference of circumstances

Like the poet said, "Nothing is so powerful as an idea whose time has come." In 1920s Europe, that idea was fascism. It swept Germany, Italy and Spain, not to mention various manifestations in France, Greece, etc. The driving force was that a large amount of people after WWI no longer felt secure in their societies, economically or culturally. They were more terrified of chaos than they were of totalitarianism. They wanted a strong, fatherly state which would protect them. Maybe here, the product would look different.

Maybe it could be based on Christian fundamentalism. There are plenty of Christian fundamentalists in the U.S. right now who would be more than willing to burn the Constitution and replace it with some biblical version of Shia law. Maybe all it would take is the U.S. currency to collapse, not too fanciful of a possibility, or the deficit to spiral so far out of control that inflation explodes and the Fed is powerless to stop it. It's happened elsewhere.

The thing is, what the Bush administration is doing, their philosophy, their imperial arrogance, may not take us there, but it is setting the groundwork. It's building a scaffold of reasoning that could easily be layered, in the future, with a skin of totalitarianism, or some kind of statism. How close have they come, on numerous occasions, to calling those who oppose them "traitors?" Like I said, the slope is slippery and the progress toward dictatorship is incremental.

Hell, even Ben Franklin wrote that he believed one day, the U.S. would give itself over to an oligarchy of economic aristocrats and a totalitarian government. In fact, he even said it would come in the guise of seeking some kind of security. Like he told that woman who asked what kind of government they had come up with after the Constitutional Congress, "A Republic, madam. If you can keep it." To accept freedom, is to also accept some level of chaos, as Jefferson pointed out. It's messy. It's not some neat little song where everybody hums the same tune. There's little harmony to it and you've got to have some guts to accept it. When a society no longer has the guts, when they value some dream of security over the chaos of freedom, then the whole thing gets flushed, like Franklin said.

My view of Bush's little Constitutional screwing around is this, if a hole springs in the dike, do you stop it up immediately, or wait until the dike collapses?

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Sad day in America when the president can break the law, admit it, continue to do so, and the Senate won't look into it. our Nation's only hope is to elect a democratic majority. With Rep's running the show, this administration will never be held to account for anything. I honestly think Bush could do anything and get away with it now. Anything.


But all that "rule of law" stuff only applies when someone gets a BJ, don't you know?

No need for an independent counsel or investigation - Clinton's honker wasn't involved.

:pity:

[Hotrod]

Like the poet said, "Nothing is so powerful as an idea whose time has come." In 1920s Europe, that idea was fascism. It swept Germany, Italy and Spain, not to mention various manifestations in France, Greece, etc. The driving force was that a large amount of people after WWI no longer felt secure in their societies, economically or culturally. They were more terrified of chaos than they were of totalitarianism. They wanted a strong, fatherly state which would protect them. Maybe here, the product would look different.

Maybe it could be based on Christian fundamentalism. There are plenty of Christian fundamentalists in the U.S. right now who would be more than willing to burn the Constitution and replace it with some biblical version of Shia law. Maybe all it would take is the U.S. currency to collapse, not too fanciful of a possibility, or the deficit to spiral so far out of control that inflation explodes and the Fed is powerless to stop it. It's happened elsewhere.

The thing is, what the Bush administration is doing, their philosophy, their imperial arrogance, may not take us there, but it is setting the groundwork. It's building a scaffold of reasoning that could easily be layered, in the future, with a skin of totalitarianism, or some kind of statism. How close have they come, on numerous occasions, to calling those who oppose them "traitors?" Like I said, the slope is slippery and the progress toward dictatorship is incremental.

Hell, even Ben Franklin wrote that he believed one day, the U.S. would give itself over to an oligarchy of economic aristocrats and a totalitarian government. In fact, he even said it would come in the guise of seeking some kind of security. Like he told that woman who asked what kind of government they had come up with after the Constitutional Congress, "A Republic, madam. If you can keep it." To accept freedom, is to also accept some level of chaos, as Jefferson pointed out. It's messy. It's not some neat little song where everybody hums the same tune. There's little harmony to it and you've got to have some guts to accept it. When a society no longer has the guts, when they value some dream of security over the chaos of freedom, then the whole thing gets flushed, like Franklin said.

My view of Bush's little Constitutional screwing around is this, if a hole springs in the dike, do you stop it up immediately, or wait until the dike collapses?

Thats some pretty heavy stuff to digest right there but obviously well written and thought out. ^5

I got attacked on this very board the other day for pointing out that no man made 'empire/dynasty or whatever you wanna call it has lasted forever. I think and after what you just wrote this may sound simplistic but the grander a society becomes the fatter and lazier it gets until a more hungary group over takes and kills the older. Its a cycle and Im not sure you can stop it.

[enjolras]

That’s how Hitler did it.

Sweet.. you invoked Goodwin's law :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodwin%27s_Law

"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Hitler rose to his position as the "Leader" of Germany with the support of three major elements in German society: big business, which was won over by Hitler's covert promise to break the labor unions; the defense industry and the military, which responded to Hitler's call for disregarding the restrictions on German military buildup imposed by the treaty that ended World War I; and rural religious conservatives. Hitler won over this last group with his appeals to their feelings of defeated, yet resurgent nationalism; and with his hateful condemnations of those of their fellow citizens at the top of their personal enemies list: communists, homosexuals and Jews.

Substituting "Muslims" for "Jews," this is today's Republican Party, which now controls all three branches of the federal government, most of the nation's governorships, and perhaps most importantly, the major media (now owned by a handful of corporations).

America has lost its democratic republic to a system of one-party imperial fascism.

[enjolras]

When a society no longer has the guts, when they value some dream of security over the chaos of freedom, then the whole thing gets flushed, like Franklin said.

Franklin was responsible for an oft-repeated gem:

"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security. "

Really sums it up quite well.

[enjolras]

Substituting "Muslims" for "Jews," this is today's Republican Party, which now controls all three branches of the federal government, most of the nation's governorships, and perhaps most importantly, the major media (now owned by a handful of corporations).

America has lost its democratic republic to a system of one-party imperial fascism.

No.. The Democrats have just lost any semblance of a point. Its not like the Republicans took control at gun-point.. Jesus, they have a message that is simply more resonant with the American people right now.

Where we on the doorstep of fascist rule in the 60's when the democrats routinely wielded control of all major branches of government as well?

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Jesus, they (Republicans) have a message that is simply more resonant with the 38% of the American people right now.

Fixed it for you.

Where we on the doorstep of fascist rule in the 60's when the democrats routinely wielded control of all major branches of government as well?

"Routinely?"

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Like the poet said, "Nothing is so powerful as an idea whose time has come." In 1920s Europe, that idea was fascism. It swept Germany, Italy and Spain, not to mention various manifestations in France, Greece, etc. The driving force was that a large amount of people after WWI no longer felt secure in their societies, economically or culturally. They were more terrified of chaos than they were of totalitarianism. They wanted a strong, fatherly state which would protect them. Maybe here, the product would look different.

Maybe it could be based on Christian fundamentalism. There are plenty of Christian fundamentalists in the U.S. right now who would be more than willing to burn the Constitution and replace it with some biblical version of Shia law. Maybe all it would take is the U.S. currency to collapse, not too fanciful of a possibility, or the deficit to spiral so far out of control that inflation explodes and the Fed is powerless to stop it. It's happened elsewhere.

The thing is, what the Bush administration is doing, their philosophy, their imperial arrogance, may not take us there, but it is setting the groundwork. It's building a scaffold of reasoning that could easily be layered, in the future, with a skin of totalitarianism, or some kind of statism. How close have they come, on numerous occasions, to calling those who oppose them "traitors?" Like I said, the slope is slippery and the progress toward dictatorship is incremental.

Hell, even Ben Franklin wrote that he believed one day, the U.S. would give itself over to an oligarchy of economic aristocrats and a totalitarian government. In fact, he even said it would come in the guise of seeking some kind of security. Like he told that woman who asked what kind of government they had come up with after the Constitutional Congress, "A Republic, madam. If you can keep it." To accept freedom, is to also accept some level of chaos, as Jefferson pointed out. It's messy. It's not some neat little song where everybody hums the same tune. There's little harmony to it and you've got to have some guts to accept it. When a society no longer has the guts, when they value some dream of security over the chaos of freedom, then the whole thing gets flushed, like Franklin said.

My view of Bush's little Constitutional screwing around is this, if a hole springs in the dike, do you stop it up immediately, or wait until the dike collapses?

"It is our task to recognize that the black miracle of Nazism was only the German version, superbly planned and superbly bungled, of a universal contemporary potential. The trend persists; Hitler's ghost is counting on it."

- Alice Miller

[Rohirrim]

Sweet.. you invoked Goodwin's law :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodwin%27s_Law

"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."

If you're talking about totalitarian dictatorships, who else do you use? I guess you could pull out Genghis Khan, but most people probably wouldn't get the reference. After all, isn't Hitler kind of the Elvis of fascist dictators?

[baja]

Spooky, ain't it? ;D

At one point in time, the majority of the German people thought Adolph was a great guy. The saviour of the German people. Totalitarianism doesn't descend on you one morning. It creeps in, day by day.

Well said and timely

[baja]

Now I gotta go back and read the whole damn thread.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Paul Craig Roberts: 'Our leader über alles: Conservatives endorse the Fuhrer Principle'

Last week's annual Conservative Political Action Conference signaled the transformation of American conservatism into brownshirtism. A former Justice Department official named Viet Dinh got a standing ovation when he told the CPAC audience that the rule of law mustn't get in the way of President Bush protecting Americans from Osama bin Laden.

Former Republican congressman Bob Barr, who led the House impeachment of President Bill Clinton, reminded the CPAC audience that our first loyalty is to the U.S. Constitution, not to a leader. The question, Barr said, is not one of disloyalty to Bush, but whether America "will remain a nation subject to, and governed by, the rule of law or the whim of men."

The CPAC audience answered that they preferred to be governed by Bush. According to Dana Milbank, a member of the CPAC audience named Richard Sorcinelli loudly booed Barr, declaring: "I can't believe I'm in a conservative hall listening to him say Bush is off course trying to defend the United States." A woman in the audience told Barr that the Constitution placed Bush above the law and above non-elected federal judges.

These statements gallop beyond the merely partisan. They express the sentiments of brownshirtism. Our leader über alles.

http://www.antiwar.com/roberts/?articleid=8558

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

The Republican Guard

The Republican Guard that has been protecting this administration in Congress has exceeded all bounds of reason. They have no conscience. They all have to go.

They have investigated almost nothing during these past five years in an administration overflowing with scandals, leaks, corruption and abuses. This administration literally lost $8.8 billion in Iraq - and not one word out of Congress.

There were no weapons of mass destruction. Iraq had absolutely no ties to the people who attacked us on 9/11. And the Republican Guard still hasn't investigated the decisions that got us into this disastrous and misguided war.

Remember when Pat Roberts (R-Kansas) said his report on how the administration used faulty intelligence to get us into the Iraq War was nearly complete after Harry Reid closed down the Senate to a demand a follow-up. Senator Roberts, the Chair of the Intelligence Committee, said that was an unnecessary stunt because his report was just two weeks from completion. It's now been many months since that day. We are left with the inescapable conclusion that Pat Roberts is a grotesque liar.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cenk-uygur/the-republican-guard_b_15864.html

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/02/09/60minutes/main1302378.shtml