Ashley has got to go

[sledgehammer]

He has been an underachiever ever since he became a bronco. 2005 was supposed to be his breakout season. Instead, he caught only 42 balls. That is unacceptable for a 1st round draft pick. The Broncos should trade him. I would do it on draft day.

[Conklin]

The Broncos should trade him. I would do it on draft day.
but instead you'll be sitting @ home eating potato chips and having a beer

[Dudeskey]

sure, we could easily get a first round pick for him... 3 1st rounders on draft day wooohooo!!!http://www.proxywhore.com/invboard/html/emoticons/jerkit.gif

[TheDave]

He has been an underachiever ever since he became a bronco. 2005 was supposed to be his breakout season. Instead, he caught only 42 balls. That is unacceptable for a 1st round draft pick. The Broncos should trade him. I would do it on draft day.


trade him for what... If he is a bust/underachiever then why would anyone want him?


Another reason why the 100 post rule should be in effect!

[sledgehammer]

trade him for what... If he is a bust/underachiever then why would anyone want him?


Another reason why the 100 post rule should be in effect!

Well, If we can't trade him, then maybe we should just cut him.

[Odysseus]

trade him for what... If he is a bust/underachiever then why would anyone want him?


Another reason why the 100 post rule should be in effect!

Absolutely.

[Conklin]

Well, If we can't trade him, then maybe we should just cut him.

so you base your entire assumption of him not being worthy of a roster spot due to hsi 42 catches? come on mane, at least provide substantial reasoning behind such a dimwitted post.

[orange 4 life]

He has been an underachiever ever since he became a bronco. 2005 was supposed to be his breakout season. Instead, he caught only 42 balls. That is unacceptable for a 1st round draft pick. The Broncos should trade him. I would do it on draft day.

bad idea.
REALLY bad idea.

for one, he's a talented receiver that has produced a 1000 yard season and led the NFL in yards per catch 2 straight seasons despite being a clear #2 man.
secondly, he's shown improvement in route running, and has hands of gold (rod has more drops than lelie in each of the previous two seasons).

third, why would you trade a former #1 (who's played fairly well) when you wont get that high a pick in return?

if he's a "bust", you wont get a 1st rounder for him, and even if we DID, its an unproven player vs. a player who we KNOW can play in this league.

fact is, wr is CLEARLY our biggest position of need.
we need to ADD players at that position, not remove them.

bad idea. move on.

[TheDave]

so you base your entire assumption of him not being worthy of a roster spot due to hsi 42 catches?

and was our only deap threat again!!!

[Sodak]

100 Post rule!

Hey! Let's fire Shannahan too! Yippee!!!

[Kaylore]

He has been an underachiever ever since he became a bronco. 2005 was supposed to be his breakout season. Instead, he caught only 42 balls. That is unacceptable for a 1st round draft pick. The Broncos should trade him. I would do it on draft day.
Booooooooooooo!!!!!
http://www.duke.edu/~yw13/pictures/hehe2.jpg

[Garcia Bronco]

Naw...keep him. everybody else is a possession guy.

[elsid13]

I say we trade him and 6 pack of iron city beer for Sammie Paker.

[Dukes]

I second the 100 post rule

[sledgehammer]

If we can trade Bobby Humphrey and Clinton Portis, then we can trade Ashley.

[BizzyBone7]

the 100 post rule is looking good about now...

but y would u wanna trade him. the guy showed up in the playoffs. He really is our only deep threat, altho id love to give Devoe a chance and see what Terell can do. Other than that Rod doesnt have much left, sad to say and i hope its not true, but lets be realistic. I would give Ashley the edge over anyone in the league for a jump ball in the back of the endzone.

[Dukes]

If we can trade Bobby Humphrey and Clinton Portis, then we can trade Ashley.

Come on man, we don't produce 1000 yd recievers everyday like we can produce 1000 yd rushers. Give me a break

[MadCity]

Supposing he is a "bust" (which I don't buy at all) wouldn't you want to give the guy at least another year now that Heimerdinger is on the coaching staff. Look what the guy did to Drew Bennett, a career quarterback.

[elsid13]

Ok why trade 1000 yard young receiver that make 600k? Who are you going to get? Any rookie will be lost for first couple of years, and this isn't Madden so you can rule out stealing a top young receiver from other team.

[yerner]

Did you watch the games? He played his best football the second half of the season. Quit it.

[Hulamau]

He has been an underachiever ever since he became a bronco. 2005 was supposed to be his breakout season. Instead, he caught only 42 balls. That is unacceptable for a 1st round draft pick. The Broncos should trade him. I would do it on draft day.


Thank God the coaches don't have such a myopic and moronic assessment!

Read some of the 10,000 posts here on the subject first nubee.

Could it be that he caught only 42 passes because he didnt have but a handful more than that thrown to him all season. We de-emphasized the long game all year to minimze Jakes mistakes and install a more ball control offense. Not until the last few games did they even start to use Ash in the short to medium game too and he was superb.

Its interesting that the only two passes we threw to him resulted in our only two TDs in the Steeler game one directly and the other he set up the second score with the long circus catch.

Throw him to the dogs ... that will solve all our problems :-)!!

Case closed.

[DarkHorse]

We allow everyone to get touches on the ball so no one person is going to have outstanding stats in our system unless it's the running back. I could see Ashley wanting to leave (if he cares about stats) to get more catches elsewhere but imo he's ridden to hard around here. He does what we need him to do - make plays. Drops a few here and there but he's effective in our offense.

Even if you bring in TO, God forbid, do you really think TO is going to get 80 catches in our system? You think we're going to completely change our offensive playbook to accomodate any ONE person no matter who it is? I for one don't think that's going to change ever as long as Shanny is around. Sure, different plays here and there but we're spreading the ball and pounding out the run no matter what. We could have 5 prime Jerry Rices and Shanahan is STILL going to run his offense.

[broncos love]

I love Ashley's progression over the years and think that letting him go would be very stupid. Ashley seems like he has a good work ethic and he will improve on his intermeidiate routes since Rod is getting toward the end of his great career. With Devoe's surprising play this year and maybe a draft pick in the first rd for a wr, we will be looking pretty for the future.

[Ratboy]

You moron.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

We allow everyone to get touches on the ball so no one person is going to have outstanding stats in our system unless it's the running back. I could see Ashley wanting to leave (if he cares about stats) to get more catches elsewhere but imo he's ridden to hard around here. He does what we need him to do - make plays. Drops a few here and there but he's effective in our offense.

Even if you bring in TO, God forbid, do you really think TO is going to get 80 catches in our system? You think we're going to completely change our offensive playbook to accomodate any ONE person no matter who it is? I for one don't think that's going to change ever as long as Shanny is around. Sure, different plays here and there but we're spreading the ball and pounding out the run no matter what. We could have 5 prime Jerry Rices and Shanahan is STILL going to run his offense.
He damn well better!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Rod would be the #3 receiver.

[SoCalBronco]

How amusing.

[Sassy]

All Ash needs is to get the ball more. He's fine.

[broncogary]

Another reason why the 100 post rule should be in effect!

Only if we say you can't start a thread if you have more than 50,000 posts, too. :approve:

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Why does there need to be a post minimum for a new thread? It's not like it enhances the quality of the threads that are started, there seems to be a new one about a cat every other day.

[Sodak]

Why does there need to be a post minimum for a new thread? It's not like it enhances the quality of the threads that are started, there seems to be a new one about a cat every other day.

Maybe there should be a post cap also...

After a while, senility creeps in, and then the discussions in their heads begin towards the end of a fifth of Wild Turkey...

[Northman]

Why does there need to be a post minimum for a new thread? It's not like it enhances the quality of the threads that are started, there seems to be a new one about a cat every other day.


LOL LOL

[Sideburn]

I really miss the way the mane was before all these dumbasses started jumping on board. Not surprising that a few old members don't post as much anymore.

[yerner]

Thanks man.

[Mr. Trout]

I am in agreement with all of the people who say we keep him. Would you rather have Charlie Adams in the starting lineup. Get a clue the cupboard is bare right now and he is our big play guy.

[ludo21]

Lelies numbers might have been down, but he improved a ton on his route running this season.

If Shanny and Dinger put him in the gameplan next year more often he could easily have a 100 catch year. He has the skills ans speed for YAC, and he has shown that he will go up and get the ball.

And Dinger coming in will ONLY make him better, he made Rod what Rod is.

[Al Wilson]

Let's cut the team's only deep threatROFL!

[sirhcyennek81]

Dude had an 18+ yard per catch average, for the 2nd year running, best in the NFL. His improvement over the middle was substantial, he catches nearly everything thrown to the sidelines, and the WR coach who turned rod smith into a hall of famer is back on the team. Yeah, lets cut lelie.

:Broncos:

[Atlas]

He has been an underachiever ever since he became a bronco. 2005 was supposed to be his breakout season. Instead, he caught only 42 balls. That is unacceptable for a 1st round draft pick. The Broncos should trade him. I would do it on draft day.

Why would you trade him and get a 3rd or 4th rounder?? He is a big play WR he ain't making sh!t as far as salary. Let him play out his contract. He has one year left. Lelie I belive is vital to the offense. Did you see his TD catch against the Steelers? Great catch. I believe he would be an awesom 3rd WR. A guy that could really stretch the field and make plays.

[Atlas]

Another reason why the 100 post rule should be in effect!

I don't think another 50 posts is gonna make him any smarter.

[Atlas]

Lelies numbers might have been down, but he improved a ton on his route running this season.

If Shanny and Dinger put him in the gameplan next year more often he could easily have a 100 catch year. He has the skills ans speed for YAC, and he has shown that he will go up and get the ball.

And Dinger coming in will ONLY make him better, he made Rod what Rod is.

A 100 catches is a little optimistic I mean Rod will still be on the team, but there is no reason why Lelie couldn't end up in the 70-80 range.

[watermock]

This is is so idiotic it shouldn't even been discussed. He will be a FA soon and he hasn't kicked ass or we wouldn't be talking to that POS T.O.

he's a good clean kid and still has upside. I'm tired of people beating on him.

[fontaine]

Yeah Lelie is really important allright.

That ONE red zone TD in two seasons is absolutely irreplaceable production.

ROFL!

Fact is, the only reason Lelie should be kept as the starter IMO is because Rod is aging and there's no one else in our team remotely read to start.

To think Lelie was drafted to be the guy to replace Rod and now we're having to bring in some unstable prima donna flavor clown in TO instead because Lelie has spectacularly failed expectations. You think we'd even be talking about TO is Lelie had actually produced and even been a competent #2 WR in this offense?

I know it may be an unpopular opinion around here and I'll get stoned for it, but the fact remains, in the past two years when we had troubles in the red zone Lelie was nowhere to be found. For a starting WR in the NFL to produce just one red zone TD in two seasons has got to be some all time record in futility. There is absolutely no excuse for it.

People here have poked fun at other young WRs in our division like Eric Parker, or Samie Parker but guess what? Those guys are matching Lelie's production even though they were lesser round picks and drafted more recently.

I even remember threads comparing Jerry Porter and Lelie two years ago. Well guess what? It's no competition now. Give me a guy like Porter any day of the week.

And by the way. All this hype around Lelie's ONE good aspect in going deep is way overblown. There are plenty of one dimensional WRs available every year in the draft and in FA and all they can do is run deep.

It's embaressing at times to watch Lelie get jacked up at the line of scrimmage near the red zone and just how easily he gets steered out of his route.

C'mon folks. Let's be honest about it. If someone told you a 1st round WR in Lelie would account for one red zone TD in 32 games in his third and fourth season as a starter would you have been happy to draft him?

[eddie mac]

What a dumbass thread this really is. Trade him? For what exactly? Trade a guy who has been in the offensive system for 3 years and is Denver's only deep threat. Sounds more like Tool-season rather than offseason.

[fontaine]

What a dumbass thread this really is. Trade him? For what exactly? Trade a guy who has been in the offensive system for 3 years and is Denver's only deep threat. Sounds more like Tool-season rather than offseason.

I would have no problem trading him if we get anything of decent value. But I'm pretty sure no team would give up more than a 3rd rounder for a one dimensional WR.

What exactly will we miss if we trade Lelie? His leadership? His blocking skills? His ability to go over the middle etc? His red zone production?

Uhm. NO.

The one thing he does have is deep speed if he doesn't get bumped off the line and that's not hard to find.

BTW, it doesn't take 3 years in any offense to learn how to run fast in a straight line.

Really, what a great thread. Everybody crack on the new guy even though he brings up an interesting point instead of offering up alternatives and examining Lelie's problems.

BTW. Welcome to the mane sledgehammer.

For future reference it's ok to talk about trading a 1000 RB with a 12 TDs in Anderson, even talk about how he's slow and got tired towards the end of the season.

But don't ever question the legitimacy and importance of a starting WR in Lelie who can't get open in the red zone, across the middle, and any other situation apart from the occasional deep pass and has all of one red zone TD in two years!

[Atlas]

but the fact remains, in the past two years when we had troubles in the red zone Lelie was nowhere to be found. For a starting WR in the NFL to produce just one red zone TD in two seasons has got to be some all time record in futility. There is absolutely no excuse for it.

?

Fact is this year Denver had one of the best red zone efficiancy teams in the league. They didn't use Lelie down there because they had other options. That's not his game. Hell there are plenty of WRs in this league that don't do everything well, like Rod. Lelie is a deep route runner and he is very good at that. I suppose his 6 TDs last year of 30 yards or more wasn't very important neither was his 18.8 yard average on receptions this year.

[fontaine]

Fact is this year Denver had one of the best red zone efficiancy teams in the league. They didn't use Lelie down there because they had other options. That's not his game. Hell there are plenty of WRs in this league that don't do everything well, like Rod. Lelie is a deep route runner and he is very good at that. I suppose his 6 TDs last year of 30 yards or more wasn't very important neither was his 18.8 yard average on receptions this year.

No offense Atlas because we usually disagree :thumbsup:

but that has got to be the biggest cop out yet!

We struggled big time in the red zone last year and in the beginning of this year. It was only when Kubes/Shanny started using Kyles/Anderson/Bell that we were able to make up some ground there. Saying that it's not Lelie's game is ridiculous because you're excusing him for being a crappy player!

But the fact remains, the Lelie is completely ineffective in the red zone. That's ONE HALF of your passing game to the WRs.

No one is denying Lelie's a deep threat, but we don't need a deep threat for this offense to work. What about on 3rd downs? What about in the red zone? Do we need a deep threat then? Whatever happened to even trying to get something out of the number 2 WR other than the token two or three deep passes. Anyone remember Eddie MaCaffrey?

Let me put it to you this way. The biggest improvement in this offense isn't going to come from the running game (we're 2nd in the league), it isn't going to come from Plummer being even more efficient, it isn't going to come from our OL that's played awesome all year long.

It's going to be from the number 2 WR and TE that combined for one crappy TD.

I'm not against Lelie. I'm sure he's a hard working, team player type of guy. But we need production, not potential or just deep speed. The guy is a damn liability on the field 80% of the time when we're not throwing the ball deep.

Let's put it into context of the SuperBowl:

Pitt: 2nd WR and TE contributed: 7 TDs
Seattle: 2nd WR and TE contributed: 15 TDs

Are you telling me we don't need that kind of production from our number 2 WR?

[Rausch]

Parker = Lelie.

Talent that never developed...

[OrangeShadow]

ok fontaine,show me stats of how many times we tried to go to ash in the red zone...

[Rausch]

Just like I said in another thread, Lelie is just like Parker: unrealized potential.

Lelie is the next Plexico Buress...

[fontaine]

ok fontaine,show me stats of how many times we tried to go to ash in the red zone...

About the same number of times Lelie actually managed to get open in the red zone.

But we all know there's a concerted effort and conspiracy on the part of coaches to limit the number of looks Lelie gets in the red zone right? It has nothing to do with his seperation skills and consistently beating traffic in his route.

[fontaine]

Just like I said in another thread, Lelie is just like Parker: unrealized potential.

Lelie is the next Plexico Buress...

At least you guys didn't waste a 1st round on Parker when Ed Reed was still there and are still clinging to the hope that he'll turn into the primary WR.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

At least you guys didn't waste a 1st round on Parker when Ed Reed was still there and are still clinging to the hope that he'll turn into the primary WR.
Lelie will be fine with TO on the other side.

[Regency]

Lelie averaged 20.1 and 18.3 ypc during the last 2 years...pretty good for a WR making 600K.

[toad]

I've got mixed feelings on Lelie...but overall I do believe he's an underacheiver for a 1st rounder.

I consider him a servicable #2 WR...not a great #2, but a servicable one.

[azbroncfan]

I've got mixed feelings on Lelie...but overall I do believe he's an underacheiver for a 1st rounder.

I consider him a servicable #2 WR...not a great #2, but a servicable one.
But he's going to be a great #3. :giggle:

[fontaine]

But he's going to be a great #3. :giggle:

Yeah. Shanahan is risking team chemistry in perhaps bringing in the biggest malcontent of them all in TO but it has nothing to do with Lelie!
Ha!

The ONLY benefit of having TO would be not having to watch Lelie struggle out there.

[BroncoInferno]

ok fontaine,show me stats of how many times we tried to go to ash in the red zone...

That's poor reasoning. If we're not going to him, more than likely he isn't getting open. But you all go ahead with your conspiracy theories about Jake not looking his way or Shanny not calling his # enough as the reasons for his lack of production. It couldn't be that they don't look his way or call his # more often because he simply doesn't get open with enough frequency ???

Look, I like Lelie. It IS important to have a deep threat. But you need your #2 WR to do a little more than that. We need to find a legit #2 or #1 this offseason and let Ash line up in the slot. I think he'd be deadly operating against nickle and dime DBs.

[Hulamau]

Lelies numbers might have been down, but he improved a ton on his route running this season.

If Shanny and Dinger put him in the gameplan next year more often he could easily have a 100 catch year. He has the skills ans speed for YAC, and he has shown that he will go up and get the ball.

And Dinger coming in will ONLY make him better, he made Rod what Rod is.

Precisely so!

[Atlas]

No offense Atlas because we usually disagree :thumbsup:

but that has got to be the biggest cop out yet!

We struggled big time in the red zone last year and in the beginning of this year. It was only when Kubes/Shanny started using Kyles/Anderson/Bell that we were able to make up some ground there. Saying that it's not Lelie's game is ridiculous because you're excusing him for being a crappy player!

?

It wouldn't be normal if we agreed!!

The Broncos don't need him in the red zone. There are a lot of WR in the NFL that aren't used in the red zone. Besides. The plays aren't called for him either that or Jake doesn't look his way.

Lelie is fine at what he does, he doesn't make a lot of money and he is in the last year of his contract so what's you point?? He isn't a number 1 wr?? No sh!t really??

He is a play maker, a game changer and if he wasn't on Denver's team they wouldn't have won 10 games this year. He stretches the field for the TE's. He stretches the field for Rod, no other WR has the speed to keep the defense honest. What do you think would happen to Denver's offense if Adams was the second WR???

[Man-Goblin]

Lelies numbers might have been down, but he improved a ton on his route running this season.

If Shanny and Dinger put him in the gameplan next year more often he could easily have a 100 catch year. He has the skills ans speed for YAC, and he has shown that he will go up and get the ball.

And Dinger coming in will ONLY make him better, he made Rod what Rod is.

Also, don't forget that Ashley has turned into a VERY good run blocker, which is pretty amazing considering he couldn't block anyone when he came into the league. Kudos to Rod for helping him in that aspect.

[Sassy]

That's poor reasoning. If we're not going to him, more than likely he isn't getting open. But you all go ahead with your conspiracy theories about Jake not looking his way or Shanny not calling his # enough as the reasons for his lack of production. It couldn't be that they don't look his way or call his # more often because he simply doesn't get open with enough frequency ???

Look, I like Lelie. It IS important to have a deep threat. But you need your #2 WR to do a little more than that. We need to find a legit #2 or #1 this offseason and let Ash line up in the slot. I think he'd be deadly operating against nickle and dime DBs.
That's part of the problem...he WAS open...go look at the second half of the Pitt game...Jake wasn't getting him the ball.

[ludo21]

Also, don't forget that Ashley has turned into a VERY good run blocker, which is pretty amazing considering he couldn't block anyone when he came into the league. Kudos to Rod for helping him in that aspect.


Definitely, and everyone knows that in our system blocking is a must!

[~Crash~]

does anyone have the stats of Ashley versus players like Rice and Owens though there first few years.

[FantomForce]

He has been an underachiever ever since he became a bronco. 2005 was supposed to be his breakout season. Instead, he caught only 42 balls. That is unacceptable for a 1st round draft pick. The Broncos should trade him. I would do it on draft day.
Shiiiiat, Jake can't even get the ball to him soon enough the man just has to much speed we need a deep threat and that is what he is, he fits his roll just like he should

[Northman]

If Jake has time he can get the ball there, he proved that on the TD pass to Lelie in the Pitt game. but those opportunities are very seldom and dont come often. Shanny needs to get that O-line fixed to help both with pass blocking and run blocking. To me that must be priority one before we sign a guy like TO.

[elsid13]

this really is stupid thread. Lelie done what the coaches have asked of him and people are whining that doesn't he get enough touches. Remember he part of the system as the 2nd receiver. For Rod to get his catches underneath Lelie has to pull the coverage deep and open the underneath stuff for Smith and the TEs. IF your pissed at someone for Lelie's numbers be pissed at Kubes for not calling enough slant routes for the kid. Every time he got it he was able to get a good gain.

[Northman]

this really is stupid thread. Lelie done what the coaches have asked of him and people are whining that doesn't he get enough touches. Remember he part of the system as the 2nd receiver. For Rod to get his catches underneath Lelie has to pull the coverage deep and open the underneath stuff for Smith and the TEs. IF your pissed at someone for Lelie's numbers be pissed at Kubes for not calling enough slant routes for the kid. Every time he got it he was able to get a good gain.


Yea, i dont get it.

[elsid13]

And if Lelie was the #1 option, people would be whining that Rod was old and should retire because his numbers were down. Grow the F up. If he wasn't performing Shanahan would beach or cut his ass. He done before and will do it again.

[BroncoInferno]

That's part of the problem...he WAS open...go look at the second half of the Pitt game...Jake wasn't getting him the ball.

::) OK. I've heard this reasoning all along. I guess Shanny went the whole season without seeing this himself on film. Or maybe there is a conspiracy to keep Lelie from getting too many touches so he will be easier to resign once his contract expires after next season ??? Shanny is really planning ahead on this one!

[BroncoInferno]

IF your pissed at someone for Lelie's numbers be pissed at Kubes for not calling enough slant routes for the kid. Every time he got it he was able to get a good gain.

Yea, i dont get it.

You know, just because the ball wasn't thrown to him doesn't mean the play wasn't called for him. How do we know how many slants were called versus how many actually resulted in a throw to him? Maybe they called slants for him and he got jammed at the line and so the ball went elsewhere. Are you honestly going to tell me that you think that Ahley could be consistently good at running slants, but that Shanny simply chooses to put practically every bit of the responsibility on his 34 year old receiver? Give me a break. More blaming of the coaches and QB for Lelie not living up to expectations.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Lelie has been an underachiever but part of that is due to the offense staying conservative and part is due to Plummer's lack of a truly reliable vertical game. Having said that...he's got a lot of work to do also. None-the-less, we can't trade him. We have only 2 starting caliber receivers and if we lose Lelie Smith will get triple teamed. We need another receiver out of this draft, but not a high pick...more like a sleeper who suprises out of the 3rd round maybe.

[yavoon]

Lelie has been an underachiever but part of that is due to the offense staying conservative and part is due to Plummer's lack of a truly reliable vertical game. Having said that...he's got a lot of work to do also. None-the-less, we can't trade him. We have only 2 starting caliber receivers and if we lose Lelie Smith will get triple teamed. We need another receiver out of this draft, but not a high pick...more like a sleeper who suprises out of the 3rd round maybe.

I see where ur going, maybe something like volts*amps

[Northman]

You know, just because the ball wasn't thrown to him doesn't mean the play wasn't called for him. How do we know how many slants were called versus how many actually resulted in a throw to him? Maybe they called slants for him and he got jammed at the line and so the ball went elsewhere. Are you honestly going to tell me that you think that Ahley could be consistently good at running slants, but that Shanny simply chooses to put practically every bit of the responsibility on his 34 year old receiver? Give me a break. More blaming of the coaches and QB for Lelie not living up to expectations.


I think if you've got a guy who can make plays then you get him the ball. Lelie has speed so why not try to create or draw up plays to get him the ball? Everyone thinks that if TO comes here that all of a sudden its going to be the difference, but its not. If your playmakers dont get the ball then its still going to be a very boring offense.

[UboBronco]

Lets put some REAL thought into this equation……
Saying he is a bust, is just pure lunacy.
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p> </o:p>
How many other receivers in the league would you take over Ash?
<o:p> </o:p>
<?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:City><st1:place>Atlanta</st1:place></st1:City>….No one
<st1:City><st1:place>Buffalo</st1:place></st1:City>…. No one… Though Lee Evans is close.. but same type of player, there one week, where is he the next..
<st1:City><st1:place>Baltimore</st1:place></st1:City>… No, Derek Mason is not even close
<st1:City><st1:place>Chicago</st1:place></st1:City>….. Mussin… too old for me
<st1:City><st1:place>Dallas</st1:place></st1:City>….. They too, want TO
<st1:City><st1:place>Detroit</st1:place></st1:City>….Roy Williams, I would exchange, the rest.. no way
<st1:City><st1:place>Green Bay</st1:place></st1:City>… Jevon, IF he is healthy
Jets…. Do they even have anyone that you would want? Sorry, Coles is a head case.
<st1:City><st1:place>Miami</st1:place></st1:City>… Chambers is a thought, but no better, no worse..
<st1:place>New England</st1:place>…. They would take Ash in a moment… Branch is an equal at best.
<st1:City><st1:place>New Orleans</st1:place></st1:City>… Horn.. Too old… Stallworth, a push
<st1:place><st1:PlaceName>Tampa</st1:PlaceName> <st1:PlaceType>Bay</st1:PlaceType></st1:place>… I might consider Clayton
<st1:City><st1:place>Carolina</st1:place></st1:City>……Steve Smith, without a doubt
<st1:City><st1:place>St. Louis</st1:place></st1:City>….Isaac Bruce, way too old… Holt… of course
<st1:City><st1:place>San Francisco</st1:place></st1:City>…. Lloyd is not there yet…
Giants…. Plaxico, yes on talent… No on brainpower and teammate
<st1:State><st1:place>Washington</st1:place></st1:State>……….Moss, yes, wanted him in the draft years ago
Philly…..Do they have anyone after TO?
<st1:City><st1:place>Seattle</st1:place></st1:City>…. What Holgrem would do to make Ash a star there…
<st1:State><st1:place>Arizona</st1:place></st1:State>… A rare situation, either Bolquin or Fitz I would take
<st1:State><st1:place>Minnesota</st1:place></st1:State>….Not a believer in Williamson yet, Burleson… Nope
Indy…… <st1:place>Harrison</st1:place> yes, OK, I will give you <st1:City><st1:place>Wayne</st1:place></st1:City> also, though I think he is the next Alvin Harper
<st1:State><st1:place>Tennessee</st1:place></st1:State>… Drew Bennett….Nope I will stay with Ash
Jax….. Nobody there excites me…
<st1:City><st1:place>Houston</st1:place></st1:City>… Andre Johnson..talent, maybe…production, not there yet
KC….No one is close
<st1:City><st1:place>San Diego</st1:place></st1:City>….Nope
Raiders…..Moss yes….I will even give you Porter…
<st1:City><st1:place>Pittsburgh</st1:place></st1:City>….Ward yes….Randle El,,,, no
Cincy….Chad yes….Maybe even T J Housh
<st1:City><st1:place>Cleveland</st1:place></st1:City>….Edwards,,,,if healthy yes….
<o:p> </o:p>
So that is about 13 receivers I would trade him for, and about 8 on the same level, so anything less than that is a DECREASE in talent and productivity…
<o:p> </o:p>
Trading Ashley would be a HUGE mistake, that 31 other teams would love for us to do……..

[Malcontent]

Sit Ubo...Sit.

[yavoon]

Lets put some REAL thought into this equation……
Saying he is a bust, is just pure lunacy.
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p> </o:p>
How many other receivers in the league would you take over Ash?
<o:p> </o:p>
<?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:City><st1:place>Atlanta</st1:place></st1:City>….No one
<st1:City><st1:place>Buffalo</st1:place></st1:City>…. No one… Though Lee Evans is close.. but same type of player, there one week, where is he the next..
<st1:City><st1:place>Baltimore</st1:place></st1:City>… No, Derek Mason is not even close
<st1:City><st1:place>Chicago</st1:place></st1:City>….. Mussin… too old for me
<st1:City><st1:place>Dallas</st1:place></st1:City>….. They too, want TO
<st1:City><st1:place>Detroit</st1:place></st1:City>….Roy Williams, I would exchange, the rest.. no way
<st1:City><st1:place>Green Bay</st1:place></st1:City>… Jevon, IF he is healthy
Jets…. Do they even have anyone that you would want? Sorry, Coles is a head case.
<st1:City><st1:place>Miami</st1:place></st1:City>… Chambers is a thought, but no better, no worse..
<st1:place>New England</st1:place>…. They would take Ash in a moment… Branch is an equal at best.
<st1:City><st1:place>New Orleans</st1:place></st1:City>… Horn.. Too old… Stallworth, a push
<st1:place><st1:PlaceName>Tampa</st1:PlaceName> <st1:PlaceType>Bay</st1:PlaceType></st1:place>… I might consider Clayton
<st1:City><st1:place>Carolina</st1:place></st1:City>……Steve Smith, without a doubt
<st1:City><st1:place>St. Louis</st1:place></st1:City>….Isaac Bruce, way too old… Holt… of course
<st1:City><st1:place>San Francisco</st1:place></st1:City>…. Lloyd is not there yet…
Giants…. Plaxico, yes on talent… No on brainpower and teammate
<st1:State><st1:place>Washington</st1:place></st1:State>……….Moss, yes, wanted him in the draft years ago
Philly…..Do they have anyone after TO?
<st1:City><st1:place>Seattle</st1:place></st1:City>…. What Holgrem would do to make Ash a star there…
<st1:State><st1:place>Arizona</st1:place></st1:State>… A rare situation, either Bolquin or Fitz I would take
<st1:State><st1:place>Minnesota</st1:place></st1:State>….Not a believer in Williamson yet, Burleson… Nope
Indy…… <st1:place>Harrison</st1:place> yes, OK, I will give you <st1:City><st1:place>Wayne</st1:place></st1:City> also, though I think he is the next Alvin Harper
<st1:State><st1:place>Tennessee</st1:place></st1:State>… Drew Bennett….Nope I will stay with Ash
Jax….. Nobody there excites me…
<st1:City><st1:place>Houston</st1:place></st1:City>… Andre Johnson..talent, maybe…production, not there yet
KC….No one is close
<st1:City><st1:place>San Diego</st1:place></st1:City>….Nope
Raiders…..Moss yes….I will even give you Porter…
<st1:City><st1:place>Pittsburgh</st1:place></st1:City>….Ward yes….Randle El,,,, no
Cincy….Chad yes….Maybe even T J Housh
<st1:City><st1:place>Cleveland</st1:place></st1:City>….Edwards,,,,if healthy yes….
<o:p> </o:p>
So that is about 13 receivers I would trade him for, and about 8 on the same level, so anything less than that is a DECREASE in talent and productivity…
<o:p> </o:p>
Trading Ashley would be a HUGE mistake, that 31 other teams would love for us to do……..

yah u just dont know football.

[UboBronco]

yavoon.... so how do you know more? Who in your mind would you take? Have you really thought it out?

[yavoon]

yavoon.... so how do you know more? Who in your mind would you take? Have you really thought it out?

u thought about ur conclusion? Lets assume u think rod smith is more talented and productive than lelie, that makes lelie the 15th best wr in football. 15, there are 32 #1 receivers in the NFL and lelie, as a relatively non productive #2 on a run oriented team is #15...

as for who I'd take, lets just go by wr's w/ more talent than lelie right now.(age no distinction)

tory holt
isaac bruce
jimmy smith
ernest wilford
anquan boldin
larry fitzgerald
steve smith
tj houshmanzada?
chad johnson
marvin harrison
brandon stokley
reggie wayne
lee evans
santana moss
javon walker
donald driver
deion branch
david givens
david patten

kinda losing track of teams here

laverneous coles
hines ward
plaxico burress
darrell jackson
joe jurevicious
kevin curtis
joey galloway
braylon edwards
antonio bryant
joe horn

ok now its getting hard

terry glenn
roy williams
bobby engram
randy moss

I'll stop now

forgot TO

[UboBronco]

The question is, you as a general manager, would you take over Ash.......for this next season and the future....

[UboBronco]

If you feel there are that many better receivers than him, then state it as i did... Do not generalize.

[DBroncos4life]

is it number one or is it number two?

[UboBronco]

You have to take into consideration about age, the team and scheme they use.... otherwise you are not thinking about the entire picture... So I guess you would marry Raquel Welch now that she is 60 someting, based upon her past....If you really believe aStokely, with his 3rd team, as a third receiver is better, then you need to really thing about how a team plays, and who else is on the field with them.... You said it, Ash is on a runing team, but a Kevin Curtis or Stokley, come on now, please do not insult an NFL fan....

[yavoon]

You have to take into consideration about age, the team and scheme they use.... otherwise you are not thinking about the entire picture... So I guess you would marry Raquel Welch now that she is 60 someting, based upon her past....If you really believe aStokely, with his 3rd team, as a third receiver is better, then you need to really thing about how a team plays, and who else is on the field with them.... You said it, Ash is on a runing team, but a Kevin Curtis or Stokley, come on now, please do not insult an NFL fan....

I think stokley has better wr skills, runs better routes, can catch over the middle has great awareness. did I say curtis? curtis is cutting it close, but I also forgot some like maybe brian finneran, maybe keenan mccardell.

I think if u consider everything at once u cloud the situation greatly. especially if ur going to go over to completely subjective things like 'scheme.' lotsa ppl think players can't do anything outside of whatever scheme they're in at present, which is generally untrue.

[watermock]

This team is dying for quality recievers and you say he has to go?

Lelie isn't the problem...he hasn't become the star we hoped, but he stretches the field and once in a blue moon, gets the bomb..

He has a spot here IMO...the Claw is a total bust IMO. Maybe another year under his belt he will recover.

[UboBronco]

Simply answer for me at least, is... I am the GM, would I trade Ash straight up for any one particular player, and when I look at it, there really are not, at least to me, very many players I would take in his place. Just my perception maybe, but I really would have a hard time justifying trading him for more than maybe 15 receivers in the league. You do, have to take into consideration everything, age, talent, cost... and when I look at all of those, plus the fact that ASH is a good teammate, I would have to keep him a player, person, and teammate.

[yavoon]

Simply answer for me at least, is... I am the GM, would I trade Ash straight up for any one particular player, and when I look at it, there really are not, at least to me, very many players I would take in his place. Just my perception maybe, but I really would have a hard time justifying trading him for more than maybe 15 receivers in the league. You do, have to take into consideration everything, age, talent, cost... and when I look at all of those, plus the fact that ASH is a good teammate, I would have to keep him a player, person, and teammate.

I wouldn't *bother* trading lelie really. he's ok, broncos can use his speed(not quite as necessary as ppl think) and who knows, maybe he gets better?

[Merlin]

yah u just dont know football.
Considering your record with assessing WR, you are one to talk :D.




But anyone claiming that Lelie today is anywhere near the top 20 of WR in the league has been drinking a little too much Kool Aid

[GreatWhiteBronco]

yeah, Lelie sux, let's trade him and start Charlie Adams to save cap money or maybe we can get Chris Cole back!!!

[longtimer]

Yeah Lelie is really important allright.

That ONE red zone TD in two seasons is absolutely irreplaceable production.

ROFL!

Fact is, the only reason Lelie should be kept as the starter IMO is because Rod is aging and there's no one else in our team remotely read to start.

To think Lelie was drafted to be the guy to replace Rod and now we're having to bring in some unstable prima donna flavor clown in TO instead because Lelie has spectacularly failed expectations. You think we'd even be talking about TO is Lelie had actually produced and even been a competent #2 WR in this offense?

I know it may be an unpopular opinion around here and I'll get stoned for it, but the fact remains, in the past two years when we had troubles in the red zone Lelie was nowhere to be found. For a starting WR in the NFL to produce just one red zone TD in two seasons has got to be some all time record in futility. There is absolutely no excuse for it.

People here have poked fun at other young WRs in our division like Eric Parker, or Samie Parker but guess what? Those guys are matching Lelie's production even though they were lesser round picks and drafted more recently.

I even remember threads comparing Jerry Porter and Lelie two years ago. Well guess what? It's no competition now. Give me a guy like Porter any day of the week.

And by the way. All this hype around Lelie's ONE good aspect in going deep is way overblown. There are plenty of one dimensional WRs available every year in the draft and in FA and all they can do is run deep.

It's embaressing at times to watch Lelie get jacked up at the line of scrimmage near the red zone and just how easily he gets steered out of his route.

C'mon folks. Let's be honest about it. If someone told you a 1st round WR in Lelie would account for one red zone TD in 32 games in his third and fourth season as a starter would you have been happy to draft him?


I find it really funny that when every one talks about redzone issue they blame a WR, RB, QB or TE but I rarely hear the real reason we strugle down inside the twentys.

It's the OL, our line is way to small to play power football anymore. We need to Jumbo size our OL while keeping them just as athletic. That will require using first round picks to aquire the correct personel.

Every team that has great redzone numers can line and impose their will on the another team in the trenches.

[DBroncos4life]

I find it really funny that when every one talks about redzone issue they blame a WR, RB, QB or TE but I rarely hear the real reason we strugle down inside the twentys.

It's the OL, our line is way to small to play power football anymore. We need to Jumbo size our OL while keeping them just as athletic. That will require using first round picks to aquire the correct personel.

Every team that has great redzone numers can line and impose their will on the another team in the trenches.
Im pretty sure we finished in the top 5 in RZ scoring.

[Popps]

I've bashed on the kid in the past, but he did show some improvement late in the year. Problem is, he seems to do this every year. Shows potential, but never takes over games.

I've resigned to the fact that he'll be a nice #2 for us, and nothing more. Somewhat of a bummer, since he was a mid-first rounder, but it's better than a total bust. At least he's producing.

[Macnut]

Here's an open question as to his worth. If he became a free agent, how many teams would line up to pick him up? That in itself would tell how good teams in the NFL think he is, not his critics nor his fans.

[BroncoInferno]

I think if you've got a guy who can make plays then you get him the ball. Lelie has speed so why not try to create or draw up plays to get him the ball?

Precisely my point! Lelie can make plays vertically, but that's it! If he could make plays consistently through other methods, why in god's name wouldn't Shanny and Kubes have drawn up plays for him? The answer is they would have, or maybe you all are just smarter. Lelie just isn't consistent enough in his short to medium game, though he has improved. I like what I saw in the Pats game in that regard. Hopefully it will carry over into next season.

Everyone thinks that if TO comes here that all of a sudden its going to be the difference, but its not. If your playmakers dont get the ball then its still going to be a very boring offense.

They will get TO the ball. The difference is that TO is great getting the ball short, getting it over the middle, running any route you would would like a receiver to run, AND going deep. He can do it all. You honestly can't compare a guy with his expansive skill set to Lelie's much more limited skill set and then draw the conclusion that because Lelie doesn't get the ball, TO won't get the ball.

[Merlin]

Im pretty sure we finished in the top 5 in RZ scoring.
In the second half of the season Denver was near the top of RZ scoring and D as well as 3rd down play. But lets not let the facts get in the way of a good story.