Prehistoric UFO Art

[GonzoLays]

Since we are in offseason mode....

http://www.ufoartwork.com/images/ufoartwork_bc/repair.jpg

These petroglyphs were created thousands of years ago by ancient Indians in the American Southwest. According to Indian folklore, two objects collided high in the sky and one crash-landed in the region of Death Valley. Some men arrived (presumably in another ship) and spent some time repairing the damaged Craft and were observed by the local Indians.

http://www.ufoartwork.com/images/ufoartwork_bc/camonica.jpg

This cave painting is c.10,000 BC and is from Val Camonica, Italy. It appears to depict two beings in protective suits holding strange implements.

http://www.ufoartwork.com/images/ufoartwork_bc/Tass3.jpg

Two images c.6000 BC from Tassili, Sahara Desert, North Africa. They do not look human do they ? Also notice the disk in the sky in left hand picture

http://www.ufoartwork.com/images/ufoartwork_bc/astrokiev.jpg

This strange suited figure was found in Kiev and I believe its dated to 4,000 BC.

http://www.ufoartwork.com/images/ufoartwork_bc/ovni2.jpg

These a images from Kimberley, Australia. Possibly 5,000 years old. Some people believe they may represent ET beings

http://www.ufoartwork.com/images/ufoartwork_bc/eq3.jpg

These photos depict figures found in Equador. Notice they appear to be wearing space suits. You can see a comparison photo with an Apollo astronaut.

http://www.ufoartwork.com/images/ufoartwork_bc/Inca.jpg

Some ceramic Incan artifacts showing discs and a suited figure

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@


What do you guys think of this stuff? How in the world did people thousands of years ago draw this kind of stuff? It is from all over the world! For some odd reason, people today are seeing the same kind of things?

[Northman]

I dont know, the very top one looks like the Black Monster from the Holy Grail. lol

[Bronco_Beerslug]

What do you guys think of this stuff? How in the world did people thousands of years ago draw this kind of stuff? It is from all over the world! For some odd reason, people today are seeing the same kind of things?

http://home.conceptsfa.nl/~boogaar1/lophophorawilliamsiipotg.jpg


http://www.ildue.it/Temporanea/ImmaginiGrafica/maijuana.jpg


http://212.84.179.117/i/Opium%20Poppy.jpg

[GonzoLays]

I didn't know that smoking herb caused you to see and draw UFOs, interesting. Even ten thousand years ago. Funny how the mind works.

[Rock Chalk]

What do you guys think of this stuff? How in the world did people thousands of years ago draw this kind of stuff? It is from all over the world! For some odd reason, people today are seeing the same kind of things?
Human imagination? Those people were no different that us. Our collective knowledge is greater in the sciences, but they were capable of learning everything we are, so why should their imaginations be any less imaginative than our own?

People from all over the world drew of "dragons" as well, for thousands of years, separated seemingly by geographic distance and obstacles.

Pyramids exist all over the world too in some shape or form but all are four sided and all seem to have some ritual aspect to them.

Not discounting your observations, just making some counter observations.

[GonzoLays]

So you are saying this all in their imagination? If you go by other cave drawings that are ten of thousands of years olds of animals, the moon, the stars and fellow human beings you would have to assume they drew what they saw, not what they thought or made up in their minds.

[watermock]

http://www.dudeman.net/siriusly/ufo/art/moses.jpg

[GonzoLays]

And all of these drawings are from around the world, not one place: Africa, Italy, Australia and Ecuador.

[watermock]

http://www.crystalinks.com/ufomadonna2.jpg

this a cropping of 1500's painting...not sure who...

[Rock Chalk]

So you are saying this all in their imagination? If you go by other cave drawings that are ten of thousands of years olds of animals, the moon, the stars and fellow human beings you would have to assume they drew what they saw, not what they thought or made up in their minds.
No, Im not saying that at all.

You asked how, and I gave the possibility of human imagination.

There had to be some point when humans stopped drawing what they saw with their eyes and started drawing what they saw in their mind's eye.

And I am not stating this is the reason for the drawings, just giving a possible alternative solution.

[watermock]

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/8167/ufocig.jpg

John Glenn is a quack? He's a war hero, he didn't need any more attention...

[watermock]

That doesn't look like the mind's eye to me...looks like a photo...

[Rock Chalk]

That doesn't look like the mind's eye to me...looks like a photo...
That is a photo dip**** but we weren't talking about your mad rantings, we were talking about the photos of CAVE ART that Gonzo put up.

Drink your Druther's and shut the **** up.

[GonzoLays]

Where are the prehistoric cave paintings of Televisions, or people jamming out to radios, or even people living in a two story house? What about prehistoric cave drawings of people checking the mail, or going to a store to buy anything? What about the prehistoric man working on a computer? What about a bicycle even? Prehistoric man could not conceive even the most rudimentary of things we take for granted today, but they could conceive UFO's and space people?

I think it is too simplistic of answer to deny the "theme" of these prehistoric drawings and sculptures and say it was their imagination.

[Northman]

its all nonsense anyway. we all know that Eygpt is the portal to other wordly dimensions. lol

[watermock]

Well, they at least are standing off...

I have heard this is the third incubation...

neanderthal was wiped, then came noah...

God I don't know, the scholars all fight like cats over this.

My opinion and its not too uneducated is this the third try.

Noone can say whey neanterthal evaperated...some think he was absorbed, some think he was taken out..some think he was seen at the bar last night.,.,.some might even think their wife is one..,

Then the flood...this isn't some fable to be dismissed...it's in all cultures...everyone...

Who knows....i'm not in the NSA....

[watermock]

That is a photo dip**** but we weren't talking about your mad rantings, we were talking about the photos of CAVE ART that Gonzo put up.

Drink your Druther's and shut the **** up.

God your a moron...that photo isn't doctored you dimwit...what, you have control of the direction of a thread? STFU...This is a UFO thread so anything goes except ignorance.

[Rock Chalk]

Where are the prehistoric cave paintings of Televisions, or people jamming out to radios, or even people living in a two story house? What about prehistoric cave drawings of people checking the mail, or going to a store to buy anything? What about the prehistoric man working on a computer? What about a bicycle even? Prehistoric man could not conceive even the most rudimentary of things we take for granted today, but they could conceive UFO's and space people?

I think it is too simplistic of answer to deny the "theme" of these prehistoric drawings and sculptures and say it was their imagination.
And I think that perhaps you are seeing more into the drawings that are there.

You dont know what they intended. You can take a picture of Bush and make a comparison to a freakin Chimpanzee as well so comparing a drawing by a caveman thousands of years ago into current depictons of men in space suits is reaching at best.

You dont know what those drawings are, in any of them. And the fact that they are all "alien" in your eyes means that whoever showed you these pictures showed you only those things that they WANTED to.

Sheer numbers of cave drawings all over the world you are bound to find similarities everywhere and not all are "real" objects.

Im not saying you are wrong, all I am saying is that don't be so quick to assume the alien thing and think about logical more pedestrian explanations. The simplest explanation is usually right.

[watermock]

So which money are you Alec? Not see not her not do?

I can't tell you "what out's there" but something is and anyone with a rudimentary understanding of evolution and astromics.

Armstrong saw stuff on the moon that scared him...

you can believe it or not, he's on record, and he's another war hero.

Jesus Alec, you don't know we scrambled Phantoms over Washinton?

[GonzoLays]

If you look at the first picture, there are even legends about the images.

"These petroglyphs were created thousands of years ago by ancient Indians in the American Southwest. According to Indian folklore, two objects collided high in the sky and one crash-landed in the region of Death Valley. Some men arrived (presumably in another ship) and spent some time repairing the damaged Craft and were observed by the local Indians."

So these are not arbitrary drawings, they have collaboration behind it of beings coming from the sky. So hence the theme.

[clean]

Take it easy Scully.

http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/3324/xfiles7cw.gif (http://imageshack.us)

[watermock]

I'm open minded. If you want to be a cold blooded mysogyst that's your problem...it's not the first time you have made a stupid comment...I would want int a gunfight, just not an intellectual one.

[watermock]

So while they were busy taking care of their clans and getting wood and meat and trying to grow some sort of whatever they could clean, they just thought it fun to draw cartoon?

Alec, sometimes your the biggest Texas Asshole on the planet.

You don't even bring a fingernail to the knife fight.

[watermock]

its all nonsense anyway. we all know that Eygpt is the portal to other wordly dimensions. lol

This is more ignorant bullshiat.

Anyone with half a brain knows that the Alexandria library was sacked and burned by the romans.

[watermock]

Take it easy Scully.

http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/3324/xfiles7cw.gif (http://imageshack.us)

I will take plenty of aburd comments, but not idiotic ones.

[FADERPROOF]

again...welcome to the offseason.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

again...welcome to the offseason.

No sh*t! It's only 8:50 CST and some members are already sh*tfaced.

[broncogary]

No sh*t! It's only 8:50 CST and some members are already sh*tfaced.

Thank you. Thank you very much. :alky:

[elsid13]

Well at least there were no pictures/paintings of ET performing anal probes.

[GonzoLays]

No sh*t! It's only 8:50 CST and some members are already sh*tfaced.

As you have state you believe in nonsensical ideals such as a Big ass Bang created the universe and everything in it. Despite inefficiencies such as THREE hypothetical entities--the inflation field, dark matter and the dark energy field to overcome gross contradictions of theory and observation. No evidence has ever confirmed the existence of any of these three hypothetical entities.

You believe in hypothetical entities, so pass me some of the dumb kool aid you are drinking.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

As you have state you believe in nonsensical ideals such as a Big ass Bang created the universe and everything in it. Despite inefficiencies such as THREE hypothetical entities--the inflation field, dark matter and the dark energy field to overcome gross contradictions of theory and observation. No evidence has ever confirmed the existence of any of these three hypothetical entities.

You believe in hypothetical entities, so pass me some of the dumb kool aid you are drinking.

:) My remarks weren't in referrence to your thread topic.

[Hulamau]

http://home.conceptsfa.nl/~boogaar1/lophophorawilliamsiipotg.jpg


http://www.ildue.it/Temporanea/ImmaginiGrafica/maijuana.jpg


http://212.84.179.117/i/Opium%20Poppy.jpg


Amen! Those peyote buttons sure look like those space helmets!

Imagine what they would have looked like to those Indians after eating a few buttons!:-)

[Kaylore]

Wait a minute...

http://www.ufoartwork.com/images/ufoartwork_bc/camonica.jpg

http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/stf01004.jpg

OMG teh A13nx R C0m1^g!!!!!!

I think we have no idea what they were thinking. Remember that ancient man was campable of understanding and trying to visually represent abstract concepts like "holiness." Here are two examples that seem similar in representation. Maybe some of those artists "sucked" at making hats or heads. I've seen some third graders draw pictures that look more like monsters than people. Factor in whatever kind of herb they smoked rugularly and who knows what they were trying to draw.

[Willynowei]

lol..

I could sit here and type up a million crazy theories if I wanted to, but I'll spare you guys the reading time.

Here's a nice one.

When you look into the mirror, how do you know that you are being reflected? What if, the mirror was a window into a parallel universe of exact proportions? When you touch the mirror, what if you were touching yourself except you felt the hard surface of the mirror.

Can you truly believe in anything you sense? What perspective do you have? Time is indefinite, your life has a set beginning and end, thus you truly have no perspective.

In mathematical proportions, your aspect of life is the following:

Life of years you have lived/ (divided by)/ infinity

That number comes out to zero. Alas, you cannot make a statement about anything!

ARE YOU OPEN MINDED YET? :)

[Rock Chalk]

As you have state you believe in nonsensical ideals such as a Big ass Bang created the universe and everything in it. Despite inefficiencies such as THREE hypothetical entities--the inflation field, dark matter and the dark energy field to overcome gross contradictions of theory and observation. No evidence has ever confirmed the existence of any of these three hypothetical entities.

You believe in hypothetical entities, so pass me some of the dumb kool aid you are drinking.
Now this is something I can talk about.

Big Bang? Get real. First of all, this is a very shoddy attempt at explaining creation. The best physicist's can come up with was that "first there was nothing, then, everything" Ha!

Inflation of the universe, not happening. Dark matter/energy? Doesnt exist. How can something exist you cannot see, measure or quantify?

Even subatomic particles can be measured. But this mysterious stuff called "dark matter"?

Now they are teaching this as science fact.

But it is no better than religion. None of it is based on observation, indeed, this is almost ENTIRELY based on LACK of observation. That's not science at all.

[Rausch]

Now this is something I can talk about.

Big Bang? Get real. First of all, this is a very shoddy attempt at explaining creation. The best physicist's can come up with was that "first there was nothing, then, everything" Ha!

Inflation of the universe, not happening. Dark matter/energy? Doesnt exist. How can something exist you cannot see, measure or quantify?

Even subatomic particles can be measured. But this mysterious stuff called "dark matter"?

Now they are teaching this as science fact.

But it is no better than religion. None of it is based on observation, indeed, this is almost ENTIRELY based on LACK of observation. That's not science at all.

Dark matter is a theory but antimatter is a fact.

And just because aspects of science or religon appear to have a few facts wrong or unclear in areas doesn't mean either is invalid.

[-Slap-]

I'm open minded. If you want to be a cold blooded mysogyst that's your problem...it's not the first time you have made a stupid comment...I would want int a gunfight, just not an intellectual one.

Mock is attempting to call someone a misogynist?

:spit:

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Now this is something I can talk about.

Big Bang? Get real. First of all, this is a very shoddy attempt at explaining creation. The best physicist's can come up with was that "first there was nothing, then, everything" Ha!

Inflation of the universe, not happening. Dark matter/energy? Doesnt exist. How can something exist you cannot see, measure or quantify?

Even subatomic particles can be measured. But this mysterious stuff called "dark matter"?

Now they are teaching this as science fact.

But it is no better than religion. None of it is based on observation, indeed, this is almost ENTIRELY based on LACK of observation. That's not science at all.

Science isn't always exact. But can you prove that Dark Matter doesn't exist.

Here's one explanation.......

-------------------------------------------------
The evidence for Dark Matter
The evidence for dark matter is gravitational.
In Astronomy, as in all sciences, one can detect an object in one of two ways: either by observing it directly, or observing the effect that it has on other, more easily observed, objects.

It's always been known that there was matter in the night sky that we couldn't really directly see. When astronomers use telescopes, or even radio telescopes, they can only see objects which emit light or radio waves. Not all of the matter in the Universe does this - for instance, we wouldn't be able to see planets like our own, because they would be too dim to see.

All the mass of of all the planets in our solar system, though, is significantly less than one percent of the Sun's mass. So worrying about matter that didn't shine - non-luminous matter - wasn't of great concern.
The first evidence: Clusters of Galaxies
The first evidence that there was a significant amount of matter that we couldn't readily see was in investigating clusters of galaxies, which are simply aggregates of a few hundred to a few thousand clusters otherwise isolated in space.

In the thirties, chaps named Zwicky and Smith both examined closely two relatively nearby clusters, the Coma cluster and the Virgo cluster. They looked at the individual galaxies making up the clusters individually, and the velocities of the clusters. What they found was that the velocities of the galaxies were about a factor of ten to one hundred larger than they expected.

What did that mean? Well, in a group of galaxies like a cluster, the only important force acting between the galaxies is gravitation; it is the pulling of the galaxies on each other that gives rise to their velocities.

The velocities can indicate the total mass inside the cluster in two ways. The first way is simple; the more mass in the cluster, the greater the forces acting on each galaxy, which accelerates the galaxies to higher velocities.

Experiment 1
If your web browser is Java-aware -- e.g., Netscape 2.0b or higher, or HotJava Beta (note! I haven't tested this page with HotJava yet) - try this experiment. It allows you to vary the mass inside a galaxy cluster, and watch the individual galaxies.

The second way that velocities indicate the mass in the cluster is almost as simple; if the velocity of a given galaxy is too large, the galaxy will be able to break free of the gravitational pull of the cluster; that is, if the galaxy velocities are larger than the escape velocity, the galaxy will simply leave the cluster! So by knowing that all of the galaxies have velocities of less than the escape velocity, you can estimate the total mass.

Although in retrospect this is fairly strong evidence, it wasn't treated as such at the time; the problem is, there are many ways that observations such as these can go wrong. Mainly, the problem is in `contamination'.

When you are looking at something as vast as a cluster of galaxies, even though the velocities may be quite large, they are nothing compared to the vast expanses of the cluster. So even observing a cluster over several years just gives a still-life picture of the cluster; we can't actually watch the galaxies jostle around like we could in Experiment 1. So maybe a galaxy with a particularly high velocity is leaving the cluster; or maybe it was never part of the cluster, but was just `sailing through'. And maybe some other galaxies were just `foreground galaxies' - galaxies in front of the cluster, along the line of sight from here to there; in that case, the velocity data for that galaxy would just be misleading.
(CONTINUED)
http://tinyurl.com/2p479

[hades]

If cavemen still exist, I'm sure those people all those years ago new about spacecraft and the likes.

And this picture has NOT been photoshopped, proof they still exist!

[Rock Chalk]

Science isn't always exact. But can you prove that Dark Matter doesn't exist.

Here's one explanation.......

-------------------------------------------------
The evidence for Dark Matter
The evidence for dark matter is gravitational.
In Astronomy, as in all sciences, one can detect an object in one of two ways: either by observing it directly, or observing the effect that it has on other, more easily observed, objects.

It's always been known that there was matter in the night sky that we couldn't really directly see. When astronomers use telescopes, or even radio telescopes, they can only see objects which emit light or radio waves. Not all of the matter in the Universe does this - for instance, we wouldn't be able to see planets like our own, because they would be too dim to see.

All the mass of of all the planets in our solar system, though, is significantly less than one percent of the Sun's mass. So worrying about matter that didn't shine - non-luminous matter - wasn't of great concern.
The first evidence: Clusters of Galaxies
The first evidence that there was a significant amount of matter that we couldn't readily see was in investigating clusters of galaxies, which are simply aggregates of a few hundred to a few thousand clusters otherwise isolated in space.

In the thirties, chaps named Zwicky and Smith both examined closely two relatively nearby clusters, the Coma cluster and the Virgo cluster. They looked at the individual galaxies making up the clusters individually, and the velocities of the clusters. What they found was that the velocities of the galaxies were about a factor of ten to one hundred larger than they expected.

What did that mean? Well, in a group of galaxies like a cluster, the only important force acting between the galaxies is gravitation; it is the pulling of the galaxies on each other that gives rise to their velocities.

The velocities can indicate the total mass inside the cluster in two ways. The first way is simple; the more mass in the cluster, the greater the forces acting on each galaxy, which accelerates the galaxies to higher velocities.

Experiment 1
If your web browser is Java-aware -- e.g., Netscape 2.0b or higher, or HotJava Beta (note! I haven't tested this page with HotJava yet) - try this experiment. It allows you to vary the mass inside a galaxy cluster, and watch the individual galaxies.

The second way that velocities indicate the mass in the cluster is almost as simple; if the velocity of a given galaxy is too large, the galaxy will be able to break free of the gravitational pull of the cluster; that is, if the galaxy velocities are larger than the escape velocity, the galaxy will simply leave the cluster! So by knowing that all of the galaxies have velocities of less than the escape velocity, you can estimate the total mass.

Although in retrospect this is fairly strong evidence, it wasn't treated as such at the time; the problem is, there are many ways that observations such as these can go wrong. Mainly, the problem is in `contamination'.

When you are looking at something as vast as a cluster of galaxies, even though the velocities may be quite large, they are nothing compared to the vast expanses of the cluster. So even observing a cluster over several years just gives a still-life picture of the cluster; we can't actually watch the galaxies jostle around like we could in Experiment 1. So maybe a galaxy with a particularly high velocity is leaving the cluster; or maybe it was never part of the cluster, but was just `sailing through'. And maybe some other galaxies were just `foreground galaxies' - galaxies in front of the cluster, along the line of sight from here to there; in that case, the velocity data for that galaxy would just be misleading.
(CONTINUED)
http://tinyurl.com/2p479
Actually, give me a few minutes Beerslug, I read an article about a theory challenging dark matter and fitting in nicely to the current paradigm of physics, and it also threw the inflation of the universe theory into question as there are some inconsistencies. For instance, if all galaxies are flying away from each other and the farther away you look the faster they are moving, why is Andromeda and the Magellanic clouds (our satellite galaxy) moving towards us?

ANd, if the farther you look the faster things move, but how do you know its still moving that fast? What I mean to say is, to look at light from the edge of the universe you are looking back in time to when that light left there and it just now is getting to us correct? Well, if the farther away you look the faster things go, doesn't that tell you that the farther back in time you looked the faster the galaxies were moving? Who is to say they have not slowed down right now? Current data from the edge of the universe is roughly 12 billion years old.

The most recent data (that is, glaxies close in to us) do not seem to be moving as fast and some are not even moving away from us at all. Some are moving in another direction, some are moving towards us and some are moving away. There seems to be no rhyme or reason for it.

Physicists like to believe that here are some conditions, what happens next? Well, what physicists seem to never account for is that our rules are not exact. our conditions are not perfect. The universe works in very odd ways depending on teh scale and using math based on preconceived "conditions" is not an accurate way of measuring things because, conditions change and there is no evidence to support that physics acts the same everywhere at every level. Indeed, it has been proven time and again that physical properties of the universe can be quite different than the expected.

I love physics. Never taken it in school but have devoured almost everything I could get my hands on, particularly astrophysics. These are some of the most profound questions to ask and answer and I believe in science but I do not accept blindly just some theory when there is absolutely no proof.

I cannot disprove Dark Matter anymore than you can disprove God btw.

PS Im gonna have to wait for my co-worker to get here. He showed me the article last week, maybe he knows where its at.

[watermock]

Dark matter needs to be reclassified as stupid matter....it has gravity but no intelligence....

Grumbles....evidently this dark matter glues our world together...

now warm my hands up...

[Rock Chalk]

Gravity theory dispenses with dark matter (http://www.newscientistspace.com/article.ns?id=dn8631)

A modified theory of gravity that incorporates quantum effects can explain a trio of puzzling astronomical observations – including the wayward motion of the Pioneer spacecraft in our solar system, new studies claim.

The work appears to rule out the need to invoke dark matter or another alternative gravity theory called MOND (Modified Newtonian Dynamics). But other experts caution it has yet to pass the most crucial test – how to account for the afterglow of the big bang.

Astronomers realised in the 1970s that the gravity of visible matter alone was not enough to prevent the fast-moving stars and gas in spiral galaxies from flying out into space. They attributed the extra pull to a mysterious substance called dark matter, which is now thought to outweigh normal matter in the universe by 6 to 1.

But researchers still do not know what dark matter actually is, and some have come up with new theories of gravity to explain the galaxy observations. MOND, for example, holds that there are two forms of gravity.

Above a certain acceleration, called a0, objects move according to the conventional form of gravity, whose effects weaken as two bodies move further apart in proportion to the square of distance. But below a0, objects are controlled by another type of gravity that fades more slowly, decreasing linearly with distance.

But critics point out that MOND cannot explain the observed masses of clusters of galaxies without invoking dark matter, in the form of almost massless, known particles called neutrinos.

Quantum fluctuations
Now, Joel Brownstein and John Moffat, researchers at the Perimeter Institute for Theoretical Physics and the University of Waterloo in Ontario, Canada, say another modified gravity theory can account for both galaxies and galaxy clusters.

The theory, called scalar-tensor-vector gravity (STVG), adds quantum effects to Einstein's theory of general relativity. As in other branches of physics, the theory says that quantum fluctuations can affect the force felt between interacting objects.

In this case, a hypothetical particle called a graviton – which mediates gravity – appears in large numbers out of the vacuum of space in regions crowded with massive objects such as stars. "It's as if gravity is stronger" near the centres of galaxies, Brownstein told New Scientist. "Then, at a certain distance, the stars become sparse, and the gravitons don't contribute that much." So at larger distances, gravity returns to the behaviour described by Newton.

Pioneer 10 anomaly
Brownstein and Moffat tested the theory in several ways. They estimated that their gravitational change occurs 46,000 light years out from the centre of a large galaxy and half that distance for a small galaxy. They applied these estimates to 101 observed galaxies, and found that both their theory and MOND could account for their rotations. "The point is that neither of the two theories had any dark matter in them," says Brownstein.

But the theories did diverge when the pair tested them against observations of 106 galaxy clusters. MOND could not reproduce the observed cluster masses but STVG accounted for more than half.

Furthermore, the team tested the theory against observations of NASA's 34-year-old Pioneer 10 spacecraft, which appears about 400,000 kilometres away from its expected location in the outer solar system. Brownstein says the theory fits observations of the so-called Pioneer anomaly (see New Scientist feature, 13 things that do not make sense), while MOND cannot address it because Pioneer's acceleration is above a0.

Big bang's afterglow
"At three different distance scales, we see answers that agree with experiment," says Brownstein. "They are claiming they can solve all the world's problems," agrees Sean Carroll, a cosmologist at the University of Chicago in Illinois, US. But these experiments are "not what most cosmologists would first think of if they were going to test a new theory of gravity".

He says any theory must also explain the development of large-scale structures in the universe, and most importantly, the afterglow of the big bang. Called the cosmic microwave background (CMB) radiation, this afterglow was produced about 370,000 years after the big bang when the first atoms formed and has been studied in great detail by satellites, such as NASA's WMAP probe.

"The dark matter model is not perfect, but it made a very specific prediction for the microwave background that seems to be coming true, and it fits galaxies and clusters and large-scale structure and gravitational lensing," Carroll told New Scientist. "Nobody would be happier than me if it turned out to be modified gravity rather than dark matter, but it's becoming harder and harder to go along with that possibility."

Brownstein says the team is currently testing its theories with work on CMB studies.

------------------------------------------------------------
For a list of other articles detailing this: http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=us&q=dark+matter

[Rausch]

Gravity theory dispenses with dark matter (http://www.newscientistspace.com/article.ns?id=dn8631)


A theory that argues against another theory.

I wouldn't hang my hat on either just yet...

[Bronco_Beerslug]

A theory that argues against another theory.

I wouldn't hang my hat on either just yet...
That's right. But it's what makes science so interesting :)

[Rock Chalk]

A theory that argues against another theory.

I wouldn't hang my hat on either just yet...
Thats EXACTLY my point.

Dark matter/energy was never really an established theory. It was a placeholder that served as a means of trying to figure out what isn't known. In some respects, it is no different than religion as, in its current form, it could neither be proven nor disproven.

Its like Einstein's cosmological constant. He knew it wasn't right but he had to have a placeholder to make his equations work. We have observed enough now that we know Einstein's cosmological constant was definitively wrong, HOWEVER it served its purpose for the time. With that placeholder, the rest of the theory worked and hence, substantive science ensued with better technology and based on the foundations Einstein formulated. (Energy equals mass times the square of the speed of light)

[Old Dude]

Mock is attempting to call someone a misogynist?

:spit:

I doubt that's what he meant. But then, you never really know. :wave:

[Rausch]

The Whole John Titor story is pretty cool as well.

I don't believe it for a second, but it's good reading. Then, after taking it all in you realize that whoever hoaxed this deal knew their science.

A few years removed some of the stuff this "guy" predicted has come true. Now I wonder if the hoaxer was in the gubment or just some high up scientist "in the know."

No, this person wasn't from the future, but whoever it was had a lot of inside info...

[defenseman]

UFO's to dark matter...gravity.....hmmm...appear we are drifting a bit. UFO's , yeah they're out there. Intelligent life elsewhere other than our fragile little earth, I have no doubt. The question is when do they show themselves, maybe never, maybe later, maybe sooner, who knows. I know I don't...dman

*The government , AF in paticular, during the 40's, 50's, and 60's went to great lengths to put this to the back burner. The russian's , I believe in the 70's actually did a year long study of sorts on UFO's, pretty in depth. They came to the conclusion that UFO existence cannot be denied. Again, the military vaults hold many answers I'm sure.

[freak6]

Obviously the paintings are of the adventures of Bruschi goeing back in time and saving the earth from different catastrophes.

The universe exploded in the big bang, that is a fact. Look up Edwin Hubble and his calculations about the big bang, and the measurements of microwave temperture of space. Case closed. Also, the galaxies and stars are accellerating out, they are not moving out from the center of the universe at a constant speed.

[defenseman]

From my perspective anyway, it really doesn't matter how the universe got here. It's here now and we can enjoy it for only a very miniscule period of time, so enjoy it while you still can......I try to concentrate on ensuring I do something good for the future. Don't spend too much time on the very distant past..dman

[Bronco_Beerslug]

From my perspective anyway, it really doesn't matter how the universe got here. It's here now and we can enjoy it for only a very miniscule period of time, so enjoy it while you still can......I try to concentrate on ensuring I do something good for the future. Don't spend too much time on the very distant past..dman

Are you telling the Gonzo man that he's pissing away his life wondering about what was instead of what may be?

[defenseman]

No, you spend your life as you see fit, everyone does. However, "from my prespective" , you can't change the past, and since you can't change the past, you learn from the key issues of the past, and move on. Bottom line: don't cry over spilled milk, just try not to spill anymore, and carry on smartly...dman

*Does it really matter how the universe came about? From where I sit, no.

[broncosteven]

I bet that if there were Apollo type missions to pre-historic man that the UFO beings Teleported The Great Gene Kranz to their world & back to their time to Control those missions from the Ground, where ever "the ground" might be...

Because Failure is not an Option for Gene. He is my Hero.

[bombquixote]

I dont know, the very top one looks like the Black Monster from the Holy Grail. lol

hey now. don't be hatin'.

[bombquixote]

Since we are in offseason mode....

http://www.ufoartwork.com/images/ufoartwork_bc/repair.jpg

These petroglyphs were created thousands of years ago by ancient Indians in the American Southwest. According to Indian folklore, two objects collided high in the sky and one crash-landed in the region of Death Valley. Some men arrived (presumably in another ship) and spent some time repairing the damaged Craft and were observed by the local Indians.

http://www.ufoartwork.com/images/ufoartwork_bc/camonica.jpg

This cave painting is c.10,000 BC and is from Val Camonica, Italy. It appears to depict two beings in protective suits holding strange implements.

http://www.ufoartwork.com/images/ufoartwork_bc/Tass3.jpg

Two images c.6000 BC from Tassili, Sahara Desert, North Africa. They do not look human do they ? Also notice the disk in the sky in left hand picture

http://www.ufoartwork.com/images/ufoartwork_bc/astrokiev.jpg

This strange suited figure was found in Kiev and I believe its dated to 4,000 BC.

http://www.ufoartwork.com/images/ufoartwork_bc/ovni2.jpg

These a images from Kimberley, Australia. Possibly 5,000 years old. Some people believe they may represent ET beings

http://www.ufoartwork.com/images/ufoartwork_bc/eq3.jpg

These photos depict figures found in Equador. Notice they appear to be wearing space suits. You can see a comparison photo with an Apollo astronaut.

http://www.ufoartwork.com/images/ufoartwork_bc/Inca.jpg

Some ceramic Incan artifacts showing discs and a suited figure

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@


What do you guys think of this stuff? How in the world did people thousands of years ago draw this kind of stuff? It is from all over the world! For some odd reason, people today are seeing the same kind of things?

it's going to be a long offseason. people usually don't go this crazy until at least may.

[PLOWHORSE]

Peoples around the world are seeing these things yes, but there are tribes in South America that slaughter their 1st born son as an offering to the Gods. Are these the people we seek opinion on UFOs??

[Pat Bowlen]

Peoples around the world are seeing these things yes, but there are tribes in South America that slaughter their 1st born son as an offering to the Gods. Are these the people we seek opinion on UFOs??
I think you missed the point.

[freak6]

*Does it really matter how the universe came about? From where I sit, no.

It only matters if you find the creation of the universe interesting. It's one of the greatest mysteries we have yet to explain. That and how are the Raiders still an NFL franchise.

[defenseman]

Quite true, freak, quite true. I'm worried about how I can maximize my disposable income in 2 years when I retire, thats about it at this point. Though, life has a way of sometimes changing your priorities for you if you know what I mean...dman

[Rock Chalk]

Quite true, freak, quite true. I'm worried about how I can maximize my disposable income in 2 years when I retire, thats about it at this point. Though, life has a way of sometimes changing your priorities for you if you know what I mean...dman
Thankfully we are not all old farts like you ;D

[BroncoSoja]

The story of the Dropa for us begins in the same place, but the year is 1938. The mountains are the Baian-Kara-Ula mountains on the border that divides China and Tibet. An archaeological expedition, led by Chi Pu Tei, has trudged into the barely accessible mountain range, and has happened upon some caves that had obviously been occupied by a primitive people long ago. But what he and his team find in these remote caves is something highly unusual and, if verified, could change everything we know about our distant past.

Not all of the facts of this case are clear and, as you'll understand later, difficult to verify. Some of the details are contradictory, fuzzy, or may have been sensationalized by imaginative writers. But even if part of this story is true, it represents one of the greatest discoveries of our age.

Chi Pu Tei, a professor of archaeology at Beijing University, was leading some his students on an expedition to survey a series of interlinking caves in the Himalayan mountains. According to one account, the caves may have been artificially carved, and were more like a complex system of tunnels and underground storerooms. The walls were squared and glazed, as if cut into the mountain with a source of extreme heat. Inside the caves were several ancient, but neatly arranged burial sites, and in them the skeletal remains of a strange people. The skeletons, measuring a little more than four feet tall, were frail and spindly with disproportionately large skulls. At first. it was suggested by a member of the team that these might be the remains of an unknown species of mountain gorilla. Professor Chi Pu Tei is reputed to have responded, "Who ever heard of apes burying one another?" Yet, what kind of human was this?

More discoveries made further in the caves all but ruled out the idea that these were apes. On the walls were carved pictograms of the heavens: the sun, the moon, the stars, and the Earth with lines of dots connecting them. Then the team made the most incredible discovery of all. Half-buried in the dirt floor of the cave was an odd stone disk, obviously fashioned by the hand of an intelligent creature. The disk was approximately nine inches in diameter and three-quarters of an inch thick. In the exact center was a perfectly round, 3/4" hole, and etched in its face was a fine groove spiraling out from the center to the rim, making the disk look for all the world like some kind of primitive phonograph record.

http://paranormal.about.com/library/graphics/dropa2.jpg

This one plate, dated to be between 10,000 and 12,000 years old - older by far than the great pyramids of Egypt - was fantastic enough, but the wonder was multiplied manyfold. In all, 716 such plates were found. And each held an incredible secret. The groove, upon further inspection, was not a groove at all, but a continuous line of strange carved hieroglyphics - writing!

The tiny, almost microscopic characters were in a language never encountered before. It wasn't until 1962 that another Chinese scientist was able to decode the message of the stone plates - a message so incredible and earth-shattering that the Prehistory Department of the Beijing Academy prohibited its translation to be published. Eventually, the message was published, and what is says will astound you.

part2

In 1962, another Chinese scientist finally decodes the message on the disks - a message, if true, shatters everything we know about humankind's place in the universe.


Dr. Tsum Um Nui felt the smooth face of the disk with the palm of his hand. "What could this disk possibly be?" he wondered. He knew of its recent history; how it was discovered in 1938 by a Chinese archaeologist in a cave high in the Himalayans, along with 715 similar disks; how buried nearby were skeletons of a strange tribe of people averaging only a little over four feet high; how it was found that each disk was inscribed with a tiny groove that spiraled around its face, and that the groove turned out to be an unknown hieroglyphic. He also knew how the disks, as remarkable as they were, had been simply labeled along with other finds of the expedition and stored away at Beijing University for 20 years. During that time, others had attempted to decipher the strange inscriptions, but without success. Perhaps now, in 1962, he could.

The professor painstakingly transcribed the characters from the disk to paper. The writing was so small he had to use a magnifying glass to see it clearly. But the stones were old - perhaps 12,000 years old, it was estimated - and much of the hieroglyphics were difficult to make out or had been worn away by time and the elements. As he worked, many questions nagged the professor. How did these primitive people fashion these precise stones? How did they manage the almost microscopic writing? Who were they and what was the purpose of these hundreds of stones? Once the characters were transcribed, Dr. Tsum Um Nui began the arduous task of trying to decode its message. Eventually, he began to make progress. A word emerged. Then another. A phrase became understandable, then an entire sentence. He had broken the code. He discerned that the messages on the stones were written by a people who called themselves the Dropa. But what they were saying to him 12,000 years later made no sense. What the Dropa had written must have been one of their cultural myths, or was part of some prehistoric religious ceremony.

Or was it? When he had completed the translation as much as he could, the professor sat back in his chair in disbelief. The story the Dropa related was nothing short of astounding. How would his colleagues react? How might the world react if this story was true? The professor wrote up a paper on his findings and presented it to the university for publication. Their reaction was swift and emphatic: the paper would not be published. The Academy of Prehistory expressly forbade him to publish or even speak of his findings. The world, the academy decided, should not know about the Dropa and their fateful journey to Earth.

http://paranormal.about.com/library/graphics/dropa1.jpg

Dr. Tsum Um Nui's findings were eventually published, however. Just two years later, he published the paper entitled, "The Grooved Script Concerning Spaceships Which, as Recorded on the Discs, Landed on Earth 12,000 Years Ago." By some accounts, the academy relented and gave permission to the professor to publish the paper, and by other accounts he published it despite the official ban. In either case, his translation and his theory were met with ridicule by the archaeology establishment. The translation was just too shattering to be taken at face value or as an historical account. It just could not be true. It would change everything we know about our history and humankind's place in the universe.


nasa footage shows the same type off shape as the dropa stones
creepy stuff

http://www.geocities.com/jilaens/sts75pulse.jpg

dropa stones from the Baian-Kara-Ula mountains
note the same shape

http://paranormal.about.com/library/graphics/dropa2.jpg

http://www.anomalies-unlimited.com/Dzopa/IMAG0002.JPG

...............................................

To this very day, there are two tribes of people inhabiting the Bayan-Kara-Ula region who call themselves the Dropa and the Han. Neither tribe can be categorized into any known race - they are not Chinese, nor are they Tibetan. The people of both tribes are pygmy-sized with adults growing no taller than 3'-10" (the smallest measuring 2'-1") and weighing an average of 45 lbs. Their skin is yellowish and they have unusually large heads just like the remains of the aliens found in the caves in 1938. Hair is very sparse on their bodies and their non-Asian eyes are large with pale blue irises.

picture off the strange looking dropa tribe
http://www.20kweb.com/weird_stuff/w...ropa_rulers.gif


In 1979, a book titled Sungods in Exile appeared. The author was given as Karyl Robin-Evans and the editor as David Agamon. The book is the story of eccentric British scientist Dr. Karyl Robin-Evans' expedition (My copy of The Chinese Roswell gives the date of this expedition as 1974; other sources say 1947. Possibly a misprint?) to the Bayan Kara Ula area. Supposedly, this expedition was prompted by Robin-Evans' study of a disk purchased in India or Nepal by his friend and colleague at Oxford, Polish Professor Sergei Lolladoff. According to the book, the Robin-Evans expedition discovered of a tribe of dwarfs in a remote valley of Bayan Kara Ula. The dwarfs told him that they came from a planet in the Sirius system and that their ancestors had crash-landed on earth many centuries ago.

[BroncoSoja]

Want to really hear some creepy stuff listen the the actually audio transcipt of the first landing on the moon.. Its long and extremly boring but just wait untill the begin the do the lunar wind test and pay close attention to what the 3rd astronaught starts telling Houston what he see's.

[broncosteven]

Want to really hear some creepy stuff listen the the actually audio transcipt of the first landing on the moon.. Its long and extremly boring but just wait untill the begin the do the lunar wind test and pay close attention to what the 3rd astronaught starts telling Houston what he see's.

Huh? I have Apollo 11 on DVD. There are only 2 Astronauts, Neil & Buzz, they were only on the surface during EVA for about 2 hours & facinating to me. I have watched it over & over. Mike Collins is up in Columbia orbiting, he was trying to locate the Eagle but no one knew where they were until after they landed though Schumaker (from Schumaker-Levy comet fame) did get the co-ordinates right but no one concurred until they were home.

So anyway what experiment are you refering to? I only remember them takeing ALSEP & puting down a Laser range finder mirror then checking out the LM & doing some basic Geology on that mission but I haven't done any detail reading on Apollo 11 in a while.

Ed White was an Astronaut on Apollo 14 that started some Church after he left NASA, He tried to do ESP tests outside of NASA on the way back from the Moon but turned out they were not doing the tests at the same time or something mumbo jumbo.