DaimlerChyrsler To Cut 15,000 Jobs

[Bronco_Beerslug]

All in Europe so far (just updated on CNBC).

--------------------------------------------------
DaimlerChrysler to cut white-collar staff by fifth
By Michael Shields, European Auto Correspondent Tue Jan 24, 11:46 AM ET

FRANKFURT (Reuters) - DaimlerChrysler (DCXGn.DE) will chop up to a fifth of its white-collar staff over the next three years, eliminating around 6,000 jobs to save money and cut red tape, the world's fifth-biggest carmaker said on Tuesday.

The global shake-up -- a year in the making and unveiled by new Chief Executive Dieter Zetsche -- will cost around 2 billion euros ($2.5 billion) by the end of 2008 but aims to reap substantial savings and make management much more agile.

"Together with other ongoing efficiency programs ... G&A (general and administrative) costs are expected to be reduced by 1.5 billion euros per year. The net effect of today's (steps) will be (savings of) 1 billion euros per year," it said.

DaimlerChrysler stock rose as much as 4.8 percent on the news and was up 4.2 percent at 44.45 euros by 1602 GMT to lead gainers in the DJ Stoxx European car sector index (^SXAP - news).

Investment bank Morgan Stanley called the program "a prerequisite for cultural change" at DaimlerChrysler, which it rates "overweight" with a 48-euro price target.

"(The) payback is much better than typical investments, the company has the balance sheet to execute the reductions without threatening the dividend or the credit profile of the group," the bank said in a note to clients.

DaimlerChrysler said it would eliminate 30 percent of management-level staff and foster ties between premium car division Mercedes and U.S. arm Chrysler in purchasing, research and development while keeping the brands separate.

DaimlerChrysler and rivals are reducing payrolls in a bid to shore up earnings in an intensely competitive global car market.

Ford Motor Co (NYSE:F - news) on Monday announced plans to cut 25,000 to 30,000 manufacturing jobs and close 14 plants as it tries to revive its loss-making North American operations. General Motors Corp (NYSE:GM - news) has started a program of similar scope.

Zetsche, who cut 40,000 jobs when he headed Chrysler, said the other big U.S. companies were just catching up, but added in a conference call with analysts and reporters:

"We will assess ... where Chrysler is, how competitive it is and in the first place what potential the market holds and this will very much define the future of our actions in all regards."
(CONTINUED)
http://tinyurl.com/76hdw

[Rascal]

Detroit is going to be a ghost town.

Just for you Shack...robocop anyone?

[El Guapo]

Detroit is going to be a ghost town.

Just for you Shack...robocop anyone?

i dont think so. the government especially wont let that happen with what the big 3 contributes to the american economy. i think its sad how most people here tend to laugh it off. Hello, its going to affect you! start buying american, the quality is just as good (if not better) its just public perception!!!

[Jens1893]

big, big story here as i live quite close to two of the biggest factories dc has in europe and my mum´s employer is a sub supplier of dc

[Rascal]

i dont think so. the government especially wont let that happen with what the big 3 contributes to the american economy. i think its sad how most people here tend to laugh it off. Hello, its going to affect you! start buying american, the quality is just as good (if not better) its just public perception!!!

First it was a joke, second public perception my ass. I had a chevy blazer, and a ford F-150; my parents had a Ford F-250, a Chevy Silverado, Ford Explorer, Chevy Suburban, Ford Tarus, a Chevy Malibu; and my wife owns a Ford Focus and they have been/were reliability nightmares. The Explorer and Suburban were admitted MELONS by Ford and Chevy respectfully. I bought a mazda pickup and my parents a Toyota Camry...have had no problems in 4+ years.

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

i dont think so. the government especially wont let that happen with what the big 3 contributes to the american economy. i think its sad how most people here tend to laugh it off. Hello, its going to affect you! start buying american, the quality is just as good (if not better) its just public perception!!!

Your quality statement is well proven, but the auto companies do need to cut costs. Take a look at the assembly lines now. They are all computer driven with near JIT inventory systems. Nothing like the rivet head days when I worked a line with grease and paint everywhere. No more tossing your lunch under the seat of a car or a variety of other types of vandalism. Unions have sucked the big three dry because they never fought back. Now is the time to pay the piper.

[Mile High Shack]

i dont think so. the government especially wont let that happen with what the big 3 contributes to the american economy. i think its sad how most people here tend to laugh it off. Hello, its going to affect you! start buying american, the quality is just as good (if not better) its just public perception!!!

quality is not as good

american trucks are good

but the SUVs and the cars suck lately quality wise

[alkemical]

i dont think so. the government especially wont let that happen with what the big 3 contributes to the american economy. i think its sad how most people here tend to laugh it off. Hello, its going to affect you! start buying american, the quality is just as good (if not better) its just public perception!!!


why should i buy american when most of the work is done out of country? how does that really help?

it doesn't. Until you address this issue of how toyo and honda have more work done in the USA by US workers, than the 'american companies' do and how that benifits us to keep supporting outsourcing by 'our own'. There is no point in you to keep bringing this up until you provide an answer.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Your quality statement is well proven, but the auto companies do need to cut costs. Take a look at the assembly lines now. They are all computer driven with near JIT inventory systems. Nothing like the rivet head days when I worked a line with grease and paint everywhere. No more tossing your lunch under the seat of a car or a variety of other types of vandalism. Unions have sucked the big three dry because they never fought back. Now is the time to pay the piper.

And here is the real prevailing BS. Ford, GM and Chrysler didn't have the foresight and innovation to build the cars that people actually want so you have people like Big Guy that blame it all on unions even though the Big 3 negotiated and agreed to those contracts.

[alkemical]

Why don't the CEO's and VP's, etc take a pay cut to save money?

[TheDave]

Why don't the CEO's and VP's, etc take a pay cut to save money?

Hilarious!

actually.... that's a pretty good idea.

[El Guapo]

First it was a joke, second public perception my ass. I had a chevy blazer, and a ford F-150; my parents had a Ford F-250, a Chevy Silverado, Ford Explorer, Chevy Suburban, Ford Tarus, a Chevy Malibu; and my wife owns a Ford Focus and they have been/were reliability nightmares. The Explorer and Suburban were admitted MELONS by Ford and Chevy respectfully. I bought a mazda pickup and my parents a Toyota Camry...have had no problems in 4+ years.


eh, my dad has owned 3 chevy trucks and both have lasted about 20 years a piece. as well as my g-pa that has owned cadillac, buick and chevy products his entire life and swears by them -- especially as of late.

JD Powers ranked the brands by quality. 1) Toyota, 2) Cadillac, 3) Buick

2 and 3 both being GM. Toyota BARELY edged out cadillac as well. ALSO, JD Powers handed out its awards for top plants (overall quality). GM got gold, silver, AND bronze

[Rascal]

And I've heard some reports about JD Powers not exactly being unbiased. They can hand out awards all the want, but they keep producing crap and the image won't improve.

[loborugger]

I had a 91 Ford Escort - lasted until some old lady plowed into it and it was totaled. It had 140 k and was running strong.

I had a 94 Saturn SL - I donated this fall to Purple Heart. It had 165 K on it. We out grew it. It was getting tired, but hell, I paid but 10 grand for it.

I have a 2000 Jeep Wrangler. Tough as nails. No problems - hell I have 65 k on it and I still have the factory battery... I expected that thing to go last year. My only concern about the Jeep was it being a Chrysler product, but I have I liked it so far.

I bought my wife an 05 Tahoe this summer.... so far, so good, but its only 7 K on that set of wheels.

I bought a couple of used VWs in the 90s (78 Scirocco and a 90 Corrado), but other than that, I like buying domestic. The 78 VW was probably my favorite - not a sprinter but sporty nontheless. The Jeep is a close 2nd - spartan but rugged (like to think I am kinda like that, too).

I think Detroit is finally is starting to crank out good vehicles. However, it may be too late to save their bacon. Hell, Chrysler is already in with Mercedes. Reliability studies show US cars better than European models and catching up with Jap cars. I dig the new Mustang.

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

Why don't the CEO's and VP's, etc take a pay cut to save money?

Actually if you read the details a bigger percentage of management employes have been cut than production employees.

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

And here is the real prevailing BS. Ford, GM and Chrysler didn't have the foresight and innovation to build the cars that people actually want so you have people like Big Guy that blame it all on unions even though the Big 3 negotiated and agreed to those contracts.

And I suppose you think we should make mandatory payments to the buggy whip makers that are still unemployed? If you have ever been in an auto plant you would see that the skills needed of the current workers are nothing like the skills needed twenty years ago, but the union contracts protects those employees with seniority and outdated skills. Yes, the manufacturers screwed up by agreeing to the contracts, but they have basically been blackmailed into those contracts because of the costs and market share that would be lost due to a prolonged strike. You understand nothing about the auto indusrty and are just a puppet of the crap fed to you by your handlers.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

And I suppose you think we should make mandatory payments to the buggy whip makers that are still unemployed? If you have ever been in an auto plant you would see that the skills needed of the current workers are nothing like the skills needed twenty years ago, but the union contracts protects those employees with seniority and outdated skills. Yes, the manufacturers screwed up by agreeing to the contracts, but they have basically been blackmailed into those contracts because of the costs and market share that would be lost due to a prolonged strike. You understand nothing about the auto indusrty and are just a puppet of the crap fed to you by your handlers.

More BS and you are the one that understands nothing of the industry if you don't agree that making products that people will actually buy is what has crushed these 3 automakers. And guess what, CNBC just reported today that Toyotta and Honda both have severance packages that
are basically identical to GM and Ford in overall costs.

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

More BS and you are the one that understands nothing of the industry if you don't agree that making products that people will actually buy is what has crushed these 3 automakers. And guess what, CNBC just reported today that Toyotta and Honda both have severance packages that
are basically identical to GM and Ford in overall costs.

Obviously showing your ignorance as usual. You have never been in an auto plant much less worked in one. Every male member of my family for the last three generations and most of the women except my father and I have retired or will retire from the auto industry. I spent a year building ford engines and a year in final assembly at a GM plant while being a member of the UAW. In 1971 I was paid 14.83 per hour to jump in every vehicle coming off the line and making sure the gear shift handle was tight and the car would not start while in gear. In addition, I got 2 wks vacation, two weeks paid model change over pay, 10 sick days and 9 holidays and fully paid medical and dental insurance. If you can't do the math that translates to over 30K per year plus excellent benefits. A year later with a double degree and a GPA in excess of 3.5, I went to work as an office manager for $700 per month and almost no benefits. My mother supervised a group that, at the time, hand typed MSOs and shipping documents for GM. She now collects over $50 K in pension benefits plus free, unlimited medical benefits for both her and my father. This dwarfs what may father gets who spent 9 years in College and 35 years as a family practice doctor. I own a company that employess 140 people. I work 70-80 hours per week to make sure my employees can support their families. and my standard of living would probably be less than when I jumped in cars and turned the key except my wife also has a great career. Don't tell me I don't understand the auto industry. Like I said, you are just a puppet for your handlers.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Obviously showing your ignorance as usual. You have never been in an auto plant much less worked in one. Every male member of my family for the last three generations and most of the women except my father and I have retired or will retire from the auto industry. I spent a year building ford engines and a year in final assembly at a GM plant while being a member of the UAW. In 1971 I was paid 14.83 per hour to jump in every vehicle coming off the line and making sure the gear shift handle was tight and the car would not start while in gear. In addition, I got 2 wks vacation, two weeks paid model change over pay, 10 sick days and 9 holidays and fully paid medical and dental insurance. If you can't do the math that translates to over 30K per year plus excellent benefits. A year later with a double degree and a GPA in excess of 3.5, I went to work as an office manager for $700 per month and almost no benefits. My mother supervised a group that, at the time, hand typed MSOs and shipping documents for GM. She now collects over $50 K in pension benefits plus free, unlimited medical benefits for both her and my father. This dwarfs what may father gets who spent 9 years in College and 35 years as a family practice doctor. I own a company that employess 140 people. I work 70-80 hours per week to make sure my employees can support their families. and my standard of living would probably be less than when I jumped in cars and turned the key except my wife also has a great career. Don't tell me I don't understand the auto industry. Like I said, you are just a puppet for your handlers.

WTH does all the above crap have to do with the GM, Ford not having the foresight and innovation to build vehicles American's want? Who cares if you and your whole family were on the assembly lines, the question is can you read and understand their financial reports?

If you can then you know they AREN'T selling cars where Toyota, Honda and Nissan are. So that means instead of increasing percentage of vehicles sold they are losing percentage of vehicles sold to the competition, that's why they are going in the sh*tter.

[enjolras]

I'm certainly no expert on the auto industry...

But the analysis I have seen focuses on two problems:

The IMMEDIATE problem:

Ford became FAR to reliant on SUV/Truck sales and where completely unprepared for rising gas prices. The Escape hybrid was 2 years late and was not widely available during the worst of the gas crisis.

Meanwhile Honday and Toyota have been in the hybrid market for almost a decade at this point and had a more worldly line of cars designed with economy in mind.



The LONG TERM problem:

Ford has become far to focused on highly targetted vehicles. They've had a lot of success in narrow market segments (like the Thunderbird, large SUV, heavy trucks, etc..), but lack a car that drives significant volumes.

While Honda has the Accord and Toyota has the Camry, Ford has had to struggle with the huge manufacturing overhead of having a large lineup with no single vehicle appealing to a broad range of people.

Interesting note: Its this second problem that has GM taking a very interseting tact. They are more or less betting the whole company on the move to alternative fuels. They have invested HEAVILY in hydrodgen fuel cells (well, Ethanol in the near term). They are attempting to come up with a universal drive-by-wire chasis that will allow them to eliminate the manufacturing overhead of a large, narrowly targetted lineup.

If they can achieve this they will restore the United States to the top of auto manufacturing. They'll have the best of both worlds, reduced costs with a large set of vehicles that can appeal to ALL drivers.

Its a really interesting concept... I think GM has the clout to pull it off.

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

WTH does all the above crap have to do with the GM, Ford not having the foresight and innovation to build vehicles American's want? Who cares if you and your whole family were on the assembly lines, the question is can you read and understand their financial reports?

If you can then you know they AREN'T selling cars where Toyota, Honda and Nissan are. So that means instead of increasing percentage of vehicles sold they are losing percentage of vehicles sold to the competition, that's why they are going in the sh*tter.

I can read the financial statements much better than an ignorant folol like you. You attacked me for my statement that the auto company's cost structures were too high in part because of the union contracts and now you divert the discussion to car style. The pension costs alone comprise $1800 per vehicle produced under the main union contract signed by the Big 3. Give it up. Again you are just a puppet for your handlers.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

I can read the financial statements much better than an ignorant folol like you. You attacked me for my statement that the auto company's cost structures were too high in part because of the union contracts and now you divert the discussion to car style. The pension costs alone comprise $1800 per vehicle produced under the main union contract signed by the Big 3. Give it up. Again you are just a puppet for your handlers.

I don't know what a "folol" is but I do know ignorance when I see it.

You forgot to mention the "in part" little tidbit in your first post and made no mention of the Big 3's lack of innovation and foresight in designing vehicles that people actually want. So it's easy to see, since I pointed out that Toyota and Honda's severance package are almost identical to Ford and GM's in total cost, that your blaming the unions for single handily taking these companies to the point where they are now is completely inaccurate.

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

I don't know what a "folol" is but I do know ignorance when I see it.

You forgot to mention the "in part" little tidbit in your first post and made no mention of the Big 3's lack of innovation and foresight in designing vehicles that people actually want. So it's easy to see, since I pointed out that Toyota and Honda's severance package are almost identical to Ford and GM's in total cost, that your blaming the unions for single handily taking these companies to the point where they are now is completely inaccurate.

Once again you have proved that all you know about corporate america is what you learned from Scrroge McDuck in your Donalad Duck Comic books.

Looks at the labor cost per unit of production f'n idiot.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Once again you have proved that all you know about corporate america is what you learned from Scrroge McDuck in your Donalad Duck Comic books.

Looks at the labor cost per unit of production f'n idiot.

Once again, you wear your ignorance on your sleeve for all to see and you wear it proudly.

I'll make it as simple as I can for you. Why does GM and Ford have vehicles sitting on their lots unsold and Toyota and Honda don't, is it because of cost per unit (knowing that Honda's and Toyota's comparable model's lot tags are the same or more than GM and Ford's) or because people don't want them?

Looks at the labor cost per unit of production f'n idiot.

Ah, if you can't baffle em with BS drop down to Mock status.

[Rascal]

http://www.cnn.com/2006/AUTOS/01/23/american_cars/index.html

By Peter Valdes-Dapena, CNNMoney staff writer

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) - With all the bad news coming out of Detroit these days, many have a disarmingly simple suggestion: Ford and General Motors should simply build better cars.

"I read that Ford plans to cut about 30 000 jobs in North America alone," one CNNMoney.com reader wrote. "How about building better cars instead?'

How about that?

A perception of poor quality certainly isn't the only reason Ford and GM cars can have trouble in today's market. But it's a factor.

We looked at J.D. Power and Associates Long-term Dependability Surveys to get a sense of where American cars rank in terms of reliability and how much they've improved. That survey measures the number of problems vehicle owners have after 3 years of ownership.

We also checked with Consumer Reports to see what they thought about GM and Ford's performance in terms of reliability.

The answer is that, overall, GM and Ford cars are not that bad. In fact, depending on which survey you believe, they may even have become pretty good.

The problem is that "pretty good" has become "not quite good enough" in a world where quality standards have been raised so high and which many consumers still have bad memories of General Motors and Ford cars that have failed them in the past.

Reliability by the numbers
If you believe J.D. Power's surveys, the story for American luxury brands -- Lincoln, Cadillac and Buick -- is particularly striking.

Of those three brands Lincoln performed best in the 2005 survey, ranking third of all brands -- behind Lexus, as always, and Porsche -- with a score of 151. Buick was fourth overall with a score of 163, matching a score that earned Lexus a top ranking just two years earlier. Cadillac was fifth with 175 problems per 100 vehicles.

Nissan's luxury brand, Infiniti, ranked sixth on the survey while Honda's luxury brand, Acura, ranked 10th, lower than the American luxury brands.

In fact, Lincoln, Cadillac and Buick all out-scored Toyota's Toyota-branded and Honda's Honda-branded vehicles in the same 2005 J.D. Powers survey.

GM and Ford's non-luxury brands didn't do quite as well but the Ford brand and GM's Chevrolet came out above average.

See the table for the details but, as it turns out, a lot of Japanese brands -- everything from Mazda right down to Isuzu -- came off worse in the survey than the worst GM brand, Pontiac.

The nature of the problems reported has also changed markedly over the years, said John Tews, a spokesman for J.D. Power. Major problems, things that would actually make a vehicle not drivable, are rare today, he said. "Problem" now usually means a squeak, a rattle or a stuck knob or switch.

Another view
But the people at Consumer Reports don't have quite as good a view of Ford and GM products as J.D. Powers' survey.

In Consumer Reports predicted reliability ratings, brands like Toyota, Subaru and even Suzuki rank higher than Pontiac, which has average predicted reliablity in Consumer Reports' estimation.

Lincoln, the top-ranked American brand in the J.D. Power survey, is seen as having below average predicted reliability by Consumer Reports.

Still, agreed Michael Quincy, automotive content specialist for Consumer Reports, the quality of Ford and GM cars has improved greatly in recent years.

Looking at Ford in particular, that company's American-branded cars are about average in long term reliability. Again, though, today's "average" is a lot better than the "average" of years gone by.

"It's not like it was in the '70s when 'Ford' did stand for 'fix or repair daily,'" he said, recalling an old joke once commonly hurled against America's No. 2 carmaker.

Some Ford cars are actually "above average" in reliability, according to Consumer Reports own surveys, Quincy said. The Ford Escape Hybrid SUV is "better than average," for example, and the closely-related Mercury Mariner SUV is "much better than average" in reliability.

Still, some other Ford cars aren't so bullet-proof.

The Ford F-150 pick-up, the largest selling vehicle in America, has "below average" reliability according to Consumer Reports. And, Lincoln's performance on J.D. Power surveys notwithstanding, the Lincoln LS sedan and Navigator SUV are both rated as "much worse than average" in reliability by Consumer Reports according to its own surveys.

GM brands, according to Consumer Reports, have mostly average predicted reliability. Hummer and Saturn are seen as below average.

Why are we so sure they're bad?
Given J.D. Power survey results, and even the "not bad" showings in Consumer Reports data, why do Americans seem so sure that American cars are dross?

Three possible reasons:

Reputation: Toyota has, by now, had a lifetime to cement its reputation among American consumers for nearly fool-proof quality. GM (Research) and Ford (Research) spent nearly as long honing a reputation for not caring much about quality. Things may have improved, but it takes a long time for that to sink in.

Recalls: GM, in particular, has had a problem with headline-making recalls. It's a big company, it sells a lot of vehicles and they share a lot of components. When one of those parts goes wrong, eye-popping numbers of vehicles can be affected. That doesn't mean the vehicles are unreliable. Recalls are a different sort of problem. But it does cause concerns.

Reviews: GM and Ford vehicles haven't always exuded the quality that may have been hiding in there somewhere. Cheap-feeling interior materials, raspy-sounding engines and gap-filled construction didn't give potential buyers the feeling of confidence that even lesser Japanese brands manage to carry off.

Both GM and Ford are making strides in this area, too. Some recent GM and Ford products should go a long way to correcting the image of throwaway construction.

GM and Ford deserve credit for what they've done so far. But American consumers have shown they still need lots more proof.

[alkemical]

True test isn't the 3yr mark. I have a 93 geo prizim (corolla) - and it's rock solid.

Funny thing though, to save money on the line - they made the air conditioning all one unit. So if something goes out with the compressor, you have to replace the whole thing, not just one of the two major companants.

[El Guapo]

True test isn't the 3yr mark. I have a 93 geo prizim (corolla) - and it's rock solid.

Funny thing though, to save money on the line - they made the air conditioning all one unit. So if something goes out with the compressor, you have to replace the whole thing, not just one of the two major companants.

you do know a geo is a GM product, right?

[TheDave]

you do know a geo is a GM product, right?

the Geo prism was a Toyota corolla...

[El Guapo]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geo_Metro

[TheDave]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geo_Metro

that's a Geo Metro he has a Prizm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geo_Prizm

[alkemical]

you do know a geo is a GM product, right?


your reading comprehension is so very bad.

[El Guapo]

Hilarious! ah man, working with a headache and then switching over to post is not the smartest of ideas. sorry.

either way it was a GM product. :P

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geo_Prizm

[alkemical]

The largest A-series engine was the 1.8 L (1762 cc) 7A-FE. Produced from 1993 to 1998, it was a 4-valve DOHC narrow-valve-angle economy engine. Cylinder bore was 81 mm (3.19 in) and stroke was 85.5 mm (3.37 in).

An early Canadian version produced 115 hp (86 kW) at 5600 rpm and 110 ft·lbf (149 N·m) at 2800 rpm. The most common version is rated at 115 hp (86 kW) at 5600 rpm and 115 ft·lbf (155 N·m) at 2800 rpm engine.

In the United States, the 7A-FE's most common application was in the 1993-1997 Toyota Corolla (5th generation). The engine was also used in some 1994-1999 Toyota Celicas (6th generation) at the base ST trim level, as well as the Toyota Corolla's clone, the Geo Prizm.

Since the 7A shares the same layout as the 4A it is possible to create a 7A-G(Z)E out of a 7A-FE bottom and a 4A-G(Z)E head. Since the 7A is a very common engine the upgrade from 4A-G(Z)E to 7A-G(Z)E should be relatively cheap. This is a popular upgrade amongst drifters (mostly AE86 drivers) who are always in need of more torque.


Hmm a joint venture, that uses a toyo engine - yep so very GM, just like the pontiac Vibe, eh?

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

The Bush war economy: Exporting jobs and security

Ford Motor Company announced On January 23 that it will be cutting as many as 30,000 jobs and will shut down 14 factories as a result of continuing losses.

Ford, now hires about 123,000 workers in North America and lost $5.5 billion in those operations in 2005.

General Motors Corporation last year decided to close all or part of 12 plants and 30,000 jobs in the U.S. by 2008.

With China's recent introduction of a car selling for $10,000 in the U.S., Ford and GM have hit the wall. They have been building big SUV's in recent years and now that gas prices are rising dramatically their sales are dropping significantly. The workers on the China car are making $3.50 an hour compared to the good wages and benefits at the unionized auto plants in the U.S.

Television manufacturing in China pays workers there about 50 cents an hour. Thus TV manufacturing is virtually non-existent in the U.S. any more. On and on the story goes...

Secretary of War Donald Rumsfeld has a "strategy guy" by the name of Thomas Barnett. Barnett's job is to teach "military transformation" to high level Pentagon officers and CIA operatives. I've seen Barnett on C-SPAN several times during the past year saying that we are not going to have industrial jobs in the U.S. anymore. The big corporations will move overseas where production costs can be significantly lowered.

America's role in corporate globalization will be "security export" says Barnett. We will build the weapons systems and send our children into endless war in order to protect the profits of the corporate elite. Under corporate globalization, Barnett says, there are places called "the non-integrating gap" that have not yet submitted to the authority of the new world order. The job of the U.S. will be to go into the "non-integrating gap" and make sure these countries comply with the dictates of corporate globalization.

Barnett has identified the gap as the Middle East (where we fight in Iraq today), Central Asia (where we are now building six permanent bases in Afghanistan), Africa (where Barnett says the U.S. will be fighting for oil 20 years from now), and Latin America (where you have Venezuela and others not carrying the water for big business).

Barnett says that the U.S. won't do international treaties anymore because they would limit the ability of the Pentagon to do preemptive first-strike attack on any country that is not complying with corporate globalization.

What does this mean for social spending back home? As the job base dries up in the U.S. so will the tax base at the local-state-federal levels. There will increasingly be cuts in social programs. Education will be cut and privatized so that only the children of the rich can afford, without incurring massive debt, a college education. Thus the only real job prospects for many young people will be in the military - endless warriors. Thus the Pentagon's statement that there will be no need for a draft. When the military is the only job around legions of poor and working class kids will have few other options.

This is the not-so-bright picture that the corporate dominated government of the U.S. is creating for us. It will become a reality if we don't begin to protest now against this re-introduction of feudalism. We must fight to have a fair tax system in the U.S. that does not let the rich, powerful, and corporate elite get away with not paying taxes. We must fight for public education and affordable college options for our kids. We must fight to create new jobs in manufacturing sustainable technologies like solar, wind power and public mass transit systems. We must fight for health care for all. And we must escalate our educational work and action now, before it becomes too late.

http://counterpunch.org/gagnon01252006.html

[W*GS]

LABF's true colors are (once again) revealed.

"Clinton Democrat"? Baloney.

Strident far-left radical? Bingo.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

LABF's true colors are (once again) revealed.


As are yours (to exist only to confront LABF). He does provide links in almost every post, something you rarely provide to back up your "but Clinton did it to" retorts.

[W*GS]

As are yours (to exist only to confront LABF).

Not quite. I provide information that all are welcome to peruse, and perhaps even begin to understand. Take a look at all the threads I've started - very few (if any!) are "confronting" LABF. Indeed, most of the time, he doesn't even bother to respond to my lengthier posts because he either doesn't understand them, or because they prove his belief that I love Bush to be entirely wrong.

Besides, far-left radicals do need to be taken to task for their idiotic beliefs. Someone on the OM as far-right as LABF is far-left (if you insist on a 1-D political scale) would be in the vicinity of the Nazis; don't you think Nazis need to be confronted?

He does provide links in almost every post, something you rarely provide to back up your "but Clinton did it to" retorts.

Yeah, links to op-ed pieces. BFD - as if the existence of a link is proof, in and of itself, of the argument being presented.

I've provided either the source material itself or a supporting link to just about everything I've been challenged upon.

[alkemical]

I have to say that wags for the most part uses source pieces and not op-ed pieces.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Not quite. I provide information that all are welcome to peruse, and perhaps even begin to understand. Take a look at all the threads I've started - very few (if any!) are "confronting" LABF. Indeed, most of the time, he doesn't even bother to respond to my lengthier posts because he either doesn't understand them, or because they prove his belief that I love Bush to be entirely wrong.

Besides, far-left radicals do need to be taken to task for their idiotic beliefs. Someone on the OM as far-right as LABF is far-left (if you insist on a 1-D political scale) would be in the vicinity of the Nazis; don't you think Nazis need to be confronted?

And this shows exactly how much he has become a burr in your saddle. "far-left radicals do need to be taken to task"?
and he rates a 10 on the Nazi scale as far as your concerned?
He has you mesmerized!

Yeah, links to op-ed pieces. BFD - as if the existence of a link is proof, in and of itself, of the argument being presented.

I've provided either the source material itself or a supporting link to just about everything I've been challenged upon.
He provides both source and opinion articles. Your right leaning beliefs are obvious and that's one of the reasons you to continue to stalk him. Kinda funny really.

[W*GS]

And this shows exactly how much he has become a burr in your saddle. "far-left radicals do need to be taken to task"? and he rates a 10 on the Nazi scale as far as your concerned?

Far-left radicals do need to be countered - as their ideology is evil. Remember, LABF admires Chavez, and has posted material from a website ("VHeadline") that positively drools over Castro. Why are you covering for a dictator-loving democracy-hating pud?

If you insist on a 1-D scale, there's no-one as remotely far to the right as LABF is to the Left. In reality, the extreme left and the extreme right are far more alike than different.

LABF has claimed to be a "Clinton Democrat", but we all know better than that - heck, the op-ed pieces he posts regularly blast the centrist/DLC wing of the Democratic Party. I don't think he even reads most of that stuff.

He provides both source and opinion articles.

More opinion than fact, and what facts he does use are so spun they're nearly worthless. For example:

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=950187&postcount=2

Your right leaning beliefs are obvious

We libertarians are always painted by you liberals/left-wingers that way, because your dogma prevents you from understanding our beliefs. Give me a list of "right leaning beliefs" that I've given here.

and that's one of the reasons you to continue to stalk him. Kinda funny really.

I'm hardly "stalking" LABF - I merely see him as the biggest proponent of a truly odious ideology, and for evil to triumph, men of good will must do nothing. I don't want to see his beliefs go unchallenged. Why do you let him get away with it?

[DB-Freak]

Far-left radicals do need to be countered - as their ideology is evil. Remember, LABF admires Chavez, and has posted material from a website ("VHeadline") that positively drools over Castro. Why are you covering for a dictator-loving democracy-hating pud?

If you insist on a 1-D scale, there's no-one as remotely far to the right as LABF is to the Left. In reality, the extreme left and the extreme right are far more alike than different.

LABF has claimed to be a "Clinton Democrat", but we all know better than that - heck, the op-ed pieces he posts regularly blast the centrist/DLC wing of the Democratic Party. I don't think he even reads most of that stuff.



More opinion than fact, and what facts he does use are so spun they're nearly worthless. For example:

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=950187&postcount=2



We libertarians are always painted by you liberals/left-wingers that way, because your dogma prevents you from understanding our beliefs. Give me a list of "right leaning beliefs" that I've given here.



I'm hardly "stalking" LABF - I merely see him as the biggest proponent of a truly odious ideology, and for evil to triumph, men of good will must do nothing. I don't want to see his beliefs go unchallenged. Why do you let him get away with it?

Beautiful post.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Far-left radicals do need to be countered - as their ideology is evil. Remember, LABF admires Chavez, and has posted material from a website ("VHeadline") that positively drools over Castro. Why are you covering for a dictator-loving democracy-hating pud?

Why are you really spending a large portion of your life arguing with him about every and anything he posts?


If you insist on a 1-D scale, there's no-one as remotely far to the right as LABF is to the Left. In reality, the extreme left and the extreme right are far more alike than different.

LABF has claimed to be a "Clinton Democrat", but we all know better than that - heck, the op-ed pieces he posts regularly blast the centrist/DLC wing of the Democratic Party. I don't think he even reads most of that stuff.

You have religious fanaticals on the right calling for assasinations, taking little old ladies life savings, killing doctors, etc... and your think that's the same as LABF ranting in a political forum?


We libertarians are always painted by you liberals/left-wingers that way, because your dogma prevents you from understanding our beliefs.

Ah, the persecuted Libertarian angle. Damn demos always got their foot on our necks.


Give me a list of "right leaning beliefs" that I've given here.

You disagree and or attack 95% of the left leaning posts and roughly 5% of the right leaning posts. It's more than a "little" obvious.



I'm hardly "stalking" LABF - I merely see him as the biggest proponent of a truly odious ideology, and for evil to triumph, men of good will must do nothing. I don't want to see his beliefs go unchallenged. Why do you let him get away with it?
You've absolutely made it personal between the two of you.
Like I said, it's really somewhat entertaining in a way.

[W*GS]

Why do you insist on using blue type inside a quote? Makes it much more difficult to respond.

Why are you really spending a large portion of your life arguing with him about every and anything he posts?

Hardly a "large portion", and I don't argue everything he says. That doesn't mean I assent to those views, in any case. My original argument stands - challenging ideas is a Good Thing, generally.

You have religious fanaticals on the right calling for assasinations, taking little old ladies life savings, killing doctors, etc... and your think that's the same as LABF ranting in a political forum?

Poor LABF, then, eh? No, his words are not the same as Pat Robertson's words. Is there any excuse for either?

Ah, the persecuted Libertarian angle. Damn demos always got their foot on our necks.

Not "persecuted", just misunderstood - deliberately so?

Perhaps you can explain why so many standard liberal/left-wing positions are so anti-liberty and anti-rights.

You disagree and or attack 95% of the left leaning posts and roughly 5% of the right leaning posts. It's more than a "little" obvious.

Well gee, 95% of the posts are from the Left - this thread is dominated by liberals/Democrats/leftists, and you're dominated by LABF.

And, like I said above, lack of challenge on my part doesn't constitute agreement.

You've absolutely made it personal between the two of you.

If anyone makes a political argument "absolutely [...] personal", it's LABF. I can argue my views without relentless personalization - he can't. Any sign of deviation or disagreement with him brings a blizzard of name-calling, insults, slurs, and smears, directed at the person who has the audacity to differ. All that shows is just how weak his ideology is, and how fearful he is of being challenged. All he can muster is ad hominem. If he wasn't so hypocritical when he points out his own faults in others, it wouldn't be so bad.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

He provides both source and opinion articles. Your right leaning beliefs are obvious and that's one of the reasons you to continue to stalk him. Kinda funny really.

This has been pointed out to Whigs by a multitude of forum members - still he persists in his denial of reality and fact.

Very amusing. :D

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

http://www.people.virginia.edu/~jls6c/strips/politics101RGB.gif

[W*GS]

This has been pointed out to Whigs by a multitude of forum members - still he persists in his denial of reality and fact.

Very amusing. :D

It's even more amusing that your having me on iggy (or so you've claimed) allows you to make such statements without realizing that they've been pointed out as wrong.

You've fallen behind and don't even know it.