FOX B Team Announcer Daryl Johnston piling on the Broncos

[footstepsfrom#27]

I could care less about this stuff, but I know some of you love to hear this crap so here it is...brazen dissrespect that's notworthy for the bluntness and the fact it's from a TV network announcer. Ex-Crackboy fullback Daryl Johnston, from FOX's junior varisty announcing team had this to say about the Broncos today on a Dallas radio station...I'm reproducing it as closely as possible exactly from memory so I have no link.

Come on now...New England just gave Denver that game more than they won it. I think it's Pittsburgh...I mean...really...they have Jake Plummer at quarterback, and we know what that means...that he's going to have his typical game at some point...I think Pittsburgh will take away Denver's running game and I just don't see Jake Plummer being able to win it himself.

Does this settle the question of whether these network fools are "experts"?

I think it does. This dude has no clue.

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

Another guy who retired one concussion too late.

[-Slap-]

Poor man's Tom Rathman.

[Ray Finkle]

I could care less about this stuff, but I know some of you love to hear this crap so here it is...brazen dissrespect that's notworthy for the bluntness and the fact it's from a TV network announcer. Ex-Crackboy fullback Daryl Johnston, from FOX's junior varisty announcing team had this to say about the Broncos today on a Dallas radio station...I'm reproducing it as closely as possible exactly from memory so I have no link.



Does this settle the question of whether these network fools are "experts"?

I think it does. This dude has no clue.


I think they just cut and paste the same quote each week and substitue the team they are playing each week.

[Option Coach]

I could care less about this stuff, but I know some of you love to hear this crap so here it is...brazen dissrespect that's notworthy for the bluntness and the fact it's from a TV network announcer. Ex-Crackboy fullback Daryl Johnston, from FOX's junior varisty announcing team had this to say about the Broncos today on a Dallas radio station...I'm reproducing it as closely as possible exactly from memory so I have no link.



Does this settle the question of whether these network fools are "experts"?

I think it does. This dude has no clue.

Well, lets break this all down. Here are your drives from your last game:


Broncos Drive Chart
Start /Time /TimePoss/ Drive Began/ # of Plays /YardsGained /Result
11:41 2:20 DEN 26 3 8 Punt
05:27 2:53 DEN 36 5 19 Punt
01:23 5:40 DEN 37 11 60 Downs
08:15 2:05 DEN 44 4 26 Interception
03:48 1:07 DEN 38 3 8 Punt
01:51 0:09 NE 40 1 40 Touchdown
01:33 0:50 NE 39 4 7 Field Goal
15:00 1:39 DEN 22 3 5 Punt
07:49 3:10 DEN 20 6 16 Punt
00:47 0:04 NE 1 1 1 Touchdown
12:48 2:38 DEN 33 5 25 Punt
10:10 1:32 NE 15 3 15 Touchdown
08:05 4:45 DEN 23 8 61 Field Goal
02:56 2:56 DEN 39 5 19 End of Game

Some stats just paint a picture. For example, you scored three offensive touchdowns, all of which started inside NE territory and two off DEEP turnovers. You managed one long scoring drive that got you a FG late. I would submit that, not counting NE turnovers, you in fact DID NOT defeat NE's 3-4 defense the way most of you are saying. And lets face it, NE had a DE at MLB, and a WR at DB, among others. In other words, you did not face the real test. I submit that you will face that test come sunday. Don't assume that you can beat the Steelers 3-4, because they are healthy AND no one runs this D like the Steelers.

[Ray Finkle]

Well, lets break this all down. Here are your drives from your last game:


Broncos Drive Chart
Start /Time /TimePoss/ Drive Began/ # of Plays /YardsGained /Result
11:41 2:20 DEN 26 3 8 Punt
05:27 2:53 DEN 36 5 19 Punt
01:23 5:40 DEN 37 11 60 Downs
08:15 2:05 DEN 44 4 26 Interception
03:48 1:07 DEN 38 3 8 Punt
01:51 0:09 NE 40 1 40 Touchdown
01:33 0:50 NE 39 4 7 Field Goal
15:00 1:39 DEN 22 3 5 Punt
07:49 3:10 DEN 20 6 16 Punt
00:47 0:04 NE 1 1 1 Touchdown
12:48 2:38 DEN 33 5 25 Punt
10:10 1:32 NE 15 3 15 Touchdown
08:05 4:45 DEN 23 8 61 Field Goal
02:56 2:56 DEN 39 5 19 End of Game

Some stats just paint a picture. For example, you scored three offensive touchdowns, all of which started inside NE territory and two off DEEP turnovers. You managed one long scoring drive that got you a FG late. I would submit that, not counting NE turnovers, you in fact DID NOT defeat NE's 3-4 defense the way most of you are saying. And lets face it, NE had a DE at MLB, and a WR at DB, among others. In other words, you did not face the real test. I submit that you will face that test come sunday. Don't assume that you can beat the Steelers 3-4, because they are healthy AND no one runs this D like the Steelers.

did you watch the game at all?

[Gcver2ver3]

Poor man's Tom Rathman.




rep






:rofl:

[Gcver2ver3]

Wow...you're right

He sounds like a hating fan....

that certainly doesn't sound like objective "expert" sports writing

[Option Coach]

Wow...you're right

He sounds like a hating fan....

that certainly doesn't sound like objective "expert" sports writing

Not hating at all! But you can call it what you will..stats don't lie!! And I've never seen a stat catagory that lists "mojo" or "lung capacity above 5000 ft." Until that day comes, I'll take the ODDS.:thumbsup:

[Merlin]

...stats don't lie!!
You have got to be kidding. If that is the case, why bother playing, Denver wins this game by every stat measure.

[Florida_Bronco]

Well, lets break this all down. Here are your drives from your last game:


Broncos Drive Chart
Start /Time /TimePoss/ Drive Began/ # of Plays /YardsGained /Result
11:41 2:20 DEN 26 3 8 Punt
05:27 2:53 DEN 36 5 19 Punt
01:23 5:40 DEN 37 11 60 Downs
08:15 2:05 DEN 44 4 26 Interception
03:48 1:07 DEN 38 3 8 Punt
01:51 0:09 NE 40 1 40 Touchdown
01:33 0:50 NE 39 4 7 Field Goal
15:00 1:39 DEN 22 3 5 Punt
07:49 3:10 DEN 20 6 16 Punt
00:47 0:04 NE 1 1 1 Touchdown
12:48 2:38 DEN 33 5 25 Punt
10:10 1:32 NE 15 3 15 Touchdown
08:05 4:45 DEN 23 8 61 Field Goal
02:56 2:56 DEN 39 5 19 End of Game

Some stats just paint a picture. For example, you scored three offensive touchdowns, all of which started inside NE territory and two off DEEP turnovers. You managed one long scoring drive that got you a FG late. I would submit that, not counting NE turnovers, you in fact DID NOT defeat NE's 3-4 defense the way most of you are saying. And lets face it, NE had a DE at MLB, and a WR at DB, among others. In other words, you did not face the real test. I submit that you will face that test come sunday. Don't assume that you can beat the Steelers 3-4, because they are healthy AND no one runs this D like the Steelers.

If you watch that game, our offense was pretty plain and simple like it has been recently. I believe Shanny is holding back on his bag of tricks until he really needs them. Until then, if he can win with the dink and dunk passes and basic run game, so be it.

[Ray Finkle]

Not hating at all! But you can call it what you will..stats don't lie!! And I've never seen a stat catagory that lists "mojo" or "lung capacity above 5000 ft." Until that day comes, I'll take the ODDS.:thumbsup:


Stats are data filled white lies, they can be twisted to mean anything....

[Gcver2ver3]

Not hating at all! But you can call it what you will..stats don't lie!! And I've never seen a stat catagory that lists "mojo" or "lung capacity above 5000 ft." Until that day comes, I'll take the ODDS.:thumbsup:



1st off who are you?

secondly you need to read this again

...I mean...really...they have Jake Plummer at quarterback, and we know what that means...that he's going to have his typical game at some point

a "professional" analysis should not insult the man like that....that's what fans do..not "experts"...

besides...i think plummer has earned more respect than this...the man is like 34-11 as a broncos...that is as good a winning percentage as any QB in football including manning and brady...plus he's thrown only seven picks this year...lowest int ratio around....he's 14-3 this year...

if johnston was more informed he'd be fair about plummer instead of just going by a fan type perception and just blindly insulting him

[Gcver2ver3]

..stats don't lie!!

want some stats?...

34-11 as a starter (76% winning percentage...)

14-3 this season...(best in football)

7 picks (lowest in NFL who started all 16 games)


so if stats don't lie...then according to your logic you have no choice but to give plummer credit......:afro:

[Spider]

Well, lets break this all down. Here are your drives from your last game:


Broncos Drive Chart
Start /Time /TimePoss/ Drive Began/ # of Plays /YardsGained /Result
11:41 2:20 DEN 26 3 8 Punt
05:27 2:53 DEN 36 5 19 Punt
01:23 5:40 DEN 37 11 60 Downs
08:15 2:05 DEN 44 4 26 Interception
03:48 1:07 DEN 38 3 8 Punt
01:51 0:09 NE 40 1 40 Touchdown
01:33 0:50 NE 39 4 7 Field Goal
15:00 1:39 DEN 22 3 5 Punt
07:49 3:10 DEN 20 6 16 Punt
00:47 0:04 NE 1 1 1 Touchdown
12:48 2:38 DEN 33 5 25 Punt
10:10 1:32 NE 15 3 15 Touchdown
08:05 4:45 DEN 23 8 61 Field Goal
02:56 2:56 DEN 39 5 19 End of Game

Some stats just paint a picture. For example, you scored three offensive touchdowns, all of which started inside NE territory and two off DEEP turnovers. You managed one long scoring drive that got you a FG late. I would submit that, not counting NE turnovers, you in fact DID NOT defeat NE's 3-4 defense the way most of you are saying. And lets face it, NE had a DE at MLB, and a WR at DB, among others. In other words, you did not face the real test. I submit that you will face that test come sunday. Don't assume that you can beat the Steelers 3-4, because they are healthy AND no one runs this D like the Steelers.

This is the second time you posted this , so you realy think you got somthing here , why dont you list how those teams did against us ?
Steelers D is just as nastys as Denvers no question , but here is where the rubber meets the road , up untill now all we Broncos fan have heard is stop the Run stop the Broncos , we havent heard that since last week , The Play of jake plummer is why , Jake vs Big ben , both QB's will have to make plays , avoid pressure ,make somthing happen , both Qb's will have to find away to loosen the defense up ......

[Bronx33]

What did johnson say about last weeks game? and was he right?

[Ray Finkle]

This is the second time you posted this , so you realy think you got somthing here , why dont you list how those teams did against us ?
Steelers D is just as nastys as Denvers no question , but here is where the rubber meets the road , up untill now all we Broncos fan have heard is stop the Run stop the Broncos , we havent heard that since last week , The Play of jake plummer is why , Jake vs Big ben , both QB's will have to make plays , avoid pressure ,make somthing happen , both Qb's will have to find away to loosen the defense up ......

one of the greatest sports cliche's of all time!:~ohyah!:

[hades]

OK, I have done a lot of research today. You can take all the stats, total yards, net yards, etc. You look at each team and what they have done over the course of the year on offense, defense, special teams.

Of all the stats though, the one that sticks out the most is painfully obvious. And this stat has determined the winner of each game, it's so weird, but the main stat in who wins each game is this...

Whoever scores the most fricken points wins.:wiggle:

[The Big E]

That Johnston is one cutting-edge thinker. Obviously someone sent the cut-and-paste analysis that has been used every week by every lame ass analyst for this entire 14-3 stretch we've suffered through. I mean, no way will we ever reach the AFC Championship game, and no way will be beat the #6 seed at home. I mean, c'mon, it's so obvious it can't be done.

What. a. dickhead.

[RMT]

Well, lets break this all down. Here are your drives from your last game:


Broncos Drive Chart
Start /Time /TimePoss/ Drive Began/ # of Plays /YardsGained /Result
11:41 2:20 DEN 26 3 8 Punt
05:27 2:53 DEN 36 5 19 Punt
01:23 5:40 DEN 37 11 60 Downs
08:15 2:05 DEN 44 4 26 Interception
03:48 1:07 DEN 38 3 8 Punt
01:51 0:09 NE 40 1 40 Touchdown
01:33 0:50 NE 39 4 7 Field Goal
15:00 1:39 DEN 22 3 5 Punt
07:49 3:10 DEN 20 6 16 Punt
00:47 0:04 NE 1 1 1 Touchdown
12:48 2:38 DEN 33 5 25 Punt
10:10 1:32 NE 15 3 15 Touchdown
08:05 4:45 DEN 23 8 61 Field Goal
02:56 2:56 DEN 39 5 19 End of Game

Some stats just paint a picture. For example, you scored three offensive touchdowns, all of which started inside NE territory and two off DEEP turnovers. You managed one long scoring drive that got you a FG late. I would submit that, not counting NE turnovers, you in fact DID NOT defeat NE's 3-4 defense the way most of you are saying. And lets face it, NE had a DE at MLB, and a WR at DB, among others. In other words, you did not face the real test. I submit that you will face that test come sunday. Don't assume that you can beat the Steelers 3-4, because they are healthy AND no one runs this D like the Steelers.

Why should the Broncos apologize for the Patriots giving them a short field the entire game? Statistics are for losers ... final scores are for winners. Which one counts?

[The Big E]

The more I read this quote, the more comical it becomes,

I mean...really...they have Jake Plummer at quarterback, and we know what that means...that he's going to have his typical game at some point

Yes, Jake's only played 17 games one way, but his "typical" game is right around the corner. Nice job identifying trends there, Einstein.

[RMT]

How about another statistic?

According to the Sagarain ratings, the Broncos are 6-2 vs. the "top 10" while the Steelers are 2-2 vs. the "top 10."

So, according to THAT stat, who has the edge? How convenient that so many opposing fans are discounting the HOME FIELD ADVANTAGE ... the Broncos have the BEST home field advantage over the last 30 years ... of course, that doesn't matter in a game of this magnitude ... rrriiiggghhhtttt.

[The Big E]

Why should the Broncos apologize for the Patriots giving them a short field the entire game? Statistics are for losers ... final scores are for winners. Which one counts?
Exactly. We made changes in the offseason to improve our specials teams, and we do much better in the field position battle. Yes, we earned some short fields, but we also pinned their arses deep quite often. Isn't that just called "winning football"?

[RMT]

The more I read this quote, the more comical it becomes,

I mean...really...they have Jake Plummer at quarterback, and we know what that means...that he's going to have his typical game at some point

Yes, Jake's only played 17 games one way, but his "typical" game is right around the corner. Nice job identifying trends there, Einstein.

Some people can't get over his past ... even Shanahan expected Jake to have a great season, saying "Jake's third season will be his best." I'll take Shanahan's word over some "expert" any day.

[Gcver2ver3]

.

Whoever scores the most fricken points wins.:wiggle:


as crazy as that sounds....i think you may be right!

[Spider]

Best stat of all 3 rd downs ...... see where the broncos rank and the steelers rank as for converting and stopping ........

[Goobzilla]

The highest scoring team is undefeated this season :wiggle:

[Hulamau]

Well, lets break this all down. Here are your drives from your last game:


Broncos Drive Chart
Start /Time /TimePoss/ Drive Began/ # of Plays /YardsGained /Result
11:41 2:20 DEN 26 3 8 Punt
05:27 2:53 DEN 36 5 19 Punt
01:23 5:40 DEN 37 11 60 Downs
08:15 2:05 DEN 44 4 26 Interception
03:48 1:07 DEN 38 3 8 Punt
01:51 0:09 NE 40 1 40 Touchdown
01:33 0:50 NE 39 4 7 Field Goal
15:00 1:39 DEN 22 3 5 Punt
07:49 3:10 DEN 20 6 16 Punt
00:47 0:04 NE 1 1 1 Touchdown
12:48 2:38 DEN 33 5 25 Punt
10:10 1:32 NE 15 3 15 Touchdown
08:05 4:45 DEN 23 8 61 Field Goal
02:56 2:56 DEN 39 5 19 End of Game

Some stats just paint a picture. For example, you scored three offensive touchdowns, all of which started inside NE territory and two off DEEP turnovers. You managed one long scoring drive that got you a FG late. I would submit that, not counting NE turnovers, you in fact DID NOT defeat NE's 3-4 defense the way most of you are saying. And lets face it, NE had a DE at MLB, and a WR at DB, among others. In other words, you did not face the real test. I submit that you will face that test come sunday. Don't assume that you can beat the Steelers 3-4, because they are healthy AND no one runs this D like the Steelers.


Thats a real phi beta kappa analysis there nubee! Evaluate a team and their chances of winning based on very basic stats on one side of the ball in one prior game that wasnt even against the same opponent!

Both NE and Denver played each other tight in the first half, both struggled on offense as both defenses played tough (Yes, that was the same NE defense that clocked you guys earlier at Heinz Field and that we beat twice).

We made the breaks and forced a bunch of turnovers and played smart opportunistic offense which is how you often have to win tight games against another excellent team.

This week we might score 28 points in the first quarter and still win by only 8 or so if we go into a second half prevent defense (though I doubt we'll slack off with a lead in the playoffs) or we could lose if we dont bring our A game in all three phases.

Go look at our much tougher schedule versus the Steelers schedule and how they did over all against the few good teams they played. The Steelers won a couple vs decent teams, but struggled to either eke out a win or lost to almost all the real competiton outside of the Bears (the Charger win was a squeaker to a totally flat SD team who had just beat NE in NE and couldn't put back to back big wins together all year).

And against common opponents with us this year the Steelers are 2-3 and we are 5-0. There are a lot of ways to evaluate teams and come to some sort of conclusion, but taking the most rudimentary stats from one game against a totally different team to base your whole argument on is ludicrous in the extreme!

[broncocalijohn]

Who cares! This isnt like College BCS. We WILL find out who has the better team on Sunday. Let the Steeler fans say they are better on paper. The game is played on the field where it will count.

[Atlas]

Come on now...New England just gave Denver that game more than they won it. I think it's Pittsburgh...I mean...really...they have Jake Plummer at quarterback, and we know what that means...that he's going to have his typical game at some point...I think Pittsburgh will take away Denver's running game and I just don't see Jake Plummer being able to win it himself.


They have said this all year and they will be saying this same crap next year as Denver is dricing towards back-to-back SuperBowls.

They can just keep saying these things over and over and it saves them from having to do any research.

[BroncoFanDoug]

I could care less about this stuff, but I know some of you love to hear this crap so here it is...brazen dissrespect that's notworthy for the bluntness and the fact it's from a TV network announcer. Ex-Crackboy fullback Daryl Johnston, from FOX's junior varisty announcing team had this to say about the Broncos today on a Dallas radio station...I'm reproducing it as closely as possible exactly from memory so I have no link.



Does this settle the question of whether these network fools are "experts"?

I think it does. This dude has no clue.

At what point does his career at AZ no longer become typical? It is sad that it is these people's JOB to study teams enough to have real insight. My perspective is that they all just read each other's stuff and never actually learn about teams outside of their TV antenna range.

I would get fired if I was such a lazy ass at my job.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Well, lets break this all down. Here are your drives from your last game:


Broncos Drive Chart
Start /Time /TimePoss/ Drive Began/ # of Plays /YardsGained /Result
11:41 2:20 DEN 26 3 8 Punt
05:27 2:53 DEN 36 5 19 Punt
01:23 5:40 DEN 37 11 60 Downs
08:15 2:05 DEN 44 4 26 Interception
03:48 1:07 DEN 38 3 8 Punt
01:51 0:09 NE 40 1 40 Touchdown
01:33 0:50 NE 39 4 7 Field Goal
15:00 1:39 DEN 22 3 5 Punt
07:49 3:10 DEN 20 6 16 Punt
00:47 0:04 NE 1 1 1 Touchdown
12:48 2:38 DEN 33 5 25 Punt
10:10 1:32 NE 15 3 15 Touchdown
08:05 4:45 DEN 23 8 61 Field Goal
02:56 2:56 DEN 39 5 19 End of Game

Some stats just paint a picture. For example, you scored three offensive touchdowns, all of which started inside NE territory and two off DEEP turnovers. You managed one long scoring drive that got you a FG late. I would submit that, not counting NE turnovers, you in fact DID NOT defeat NE's 3-4 defense the way most of you are saying. And lets face it, NE had a DE at MLB, and a WR at DB, among others. In other words, you did not face the real test. I submit that you will face that test come sunday. Don't assume that you can beat the Steelers 3-4, because they are healthy AND no one runs this D like the Steelers.
Most people on this board know me as the stat freak, but there's no way I'd offer up something as lame as this. Your "analysis" is foundationally flawed on several levels. Let me offer something considerably more relevant using the same data your using.

Yardage gained vs yardage actuallly needed to win. Never heard of that? That's because it's my own proprietary stat. It works like this:

Excluding a brief one play possesion at the end of the half where Brady kneeled to run out the clock, the Pats had 11 posessions in this game. Tabulating their starting field position at the beginning of each drive, the Patriots had a total of 902 yards between them and the goal line for those 11 posessions. In other words to score a TD on every posession...a perfect offensive game...they would have had to gain 902 yards to accomplish this. Since NE gained only 420 yards in total offense, and had 86 yards in penalties, they actually gained only 338 yards in the game, or 37.4% of the yardage they needed to score on a TD on all 11 posessions. (To avoid confusion I've subtracted penalty yardage off each teams total offensive production rather than break it down by defense, offense and special teams.)

This stat is helpful to understand how efficiently the New England offense moved the ball, but it does not tell the whole story. How much yardage the Patriots gained means less than how much they NEEDED TO GAIN in order to score enough points to win.

While Denver gained only 286 yards in the game, their 14 posessions put them a total of only 782 yards away from the goal line, and excluding the last drive where Plummer kneeled down to kill the clock, that figure changes to 722. In order to score a TD all 14 times they had the ball Denver would have needed to gain 722 yards. Their 286 yards becomes 262 when we subract the 24 yards in penalties they had. This means the Denver offense gained 36.3% of the offense they needed to score a TD on every drive.

So while New England outgained Denver by 134 yards, the actual NECESSARY yardage advantage is only .9%...an extremely small advantage. That, however, is not the end of the story. Turnovers played the key role here...like most playoff games, indluding those the Pats have been winning during the last 4 years. In this case one play devestated New England. While Denver had only 262 actual yards including penalties assessed against them, that figure is very deceiving. The 100 yard change of direction INT by Champ alters the entire picture. It was literally a 14 point swing.

To figure this, subtract 100 yards from the New England offense, since that's the distance they moved BACKWARDS on that play. That gives them effective positive yardage of only 228 yards for the game. Add that 100 yards to Denver's total since they moved FORWARD on the play. They now have 362 real yards gained. Reconfigure as follows:

New England; yardage needed 902, real yardage gained 228, percentage of yardage gained compared to what was needed is 25.27%

Denver: yardage needed 722, real yardage gained 362, percentage of yardage gained compared to what was needed is 50.1%

I did not include all the turnovers here in order to keep from complicating this further, but the point is that in terms of REAL yardage gained...ie; that which actually was NECESSARY and effective to the outcome of the game, the Broncos outgained the Pats by a 2:1 margin. We hear coaches say it all the time but most fans don't believe it. Football's all about field position and turnovers. It's not how much you gain...but how much you NEEDED TO GAIN. Think of it as paying your bills. Your mortgage company is not impressed with how much you paid...only how much you NEEDED to pay. Failing to pay what you NEED to pay gets you evicted, no matter how big the check you wrote.

The Pats fell short, which is why they are now playing golf and Denver's playing for a trip to the Superbowl.

[sirhcyennek81]

whoa...that was...intense...

:Broncos:

[Broncos4tw]

Yea, our offense did stink it up Saturday. Namely our running game. That is our strength, and we never got it going. Probably the first time this year really, other than the nasty, forgettable first game against Miami. You are going to have some bad games.

That said, we still beat the world champs with our defense alone. Huh. Just think what we can do against another team who isn't the world champs when we actually do get our running game going. Get it?

People are idiots, I swear. They watch one game, and assume that this is the Broncos on a normal, week to week basis. Yea, we have the #2 running team in the NFL because we suck that bad at running the ball.

I wish "experts" and anti Broncos would use their heads for something other than something to give their shoulders something to do, once in awhile.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I could care less about this stuff, but I know some of you love to hear this crap so here it is...brazen dissrespect that's notworthy for the bluntness and the fact it's from a TV network announcer. Ex-Crackboy fullback Daryl Johnston, from FOX's junior varisty announcing team had this to say about the Broncos today on a Dallas radio station...I'm reproducing it as closely as possible exactly from memory so I have no link.



Does this settle the question of whether these network fools are "experts"?

I think it does. This dude has no clue.

Faux Sports is almost as moronic as Faux News.

[broncocalijohn]

Faux Sports is almost as moronic as Faux News.

GO BACK TO POLITIC forum. You never can just be a fan LA. Always running you rliberal sheeeat

[cutman0122]

Most people on this board know me as the stat freak, but there's no way I'd offer up something as lame as this. Your "analysis" is foundationally flawed on several levels. Let me offer something considerably more relevant using the same data your using.

Yardage gained vs yardage actuallly needed to win. Never heard of that? That's because it's my own proprietary stat. It works like this:

Excluding a brief one play possesion at the end of the half where Brady kneeled to run out the clock, the Pats had 11 posessions in this game. Tabulating their starting field position at the beginning of each drive, the Patriots had a total of 902 yards between them and the goal line for those 11 posessions. In other words to score a TD on every posession...a perfect offensive game...they would have had to gain 902 yards to accomplish this. Since NE gained only 420 yards in total offense, and had 86 yards in penalties, they actually gained only 338 yards in the game, or 37.4% of the yardage they needed to score on a TD on all 11 posessions. (To avoid confusion I've subtracted penalty yardage off each teams total offensive production rather than break it down by defense, offense and special teams.)

This stat is helpful to understand how efficiently the New England offense moved the ball, but it does not tell the whole story. How much yardage the Patriots gained means less than how much they NEEDED TO GAIN in order to score enough points to win.

While Denver gained only 286 yards in the game, their 14 posessions put them a total of only 782 yards away from the goal line, and excluding the last drive where Plummer kneeled down to kill the clock, that figure changes to 722. In order to score a TD all 14 times they had the ball Denver would have needed to gain 722 yards. Their 286 yards becomes 262 when we subract the 24 yards in penalties they had. This means the Denver offense gained 36.3% of the offense they needed to score a TD on every drive.

So while New England outgained Denver by 134 yards, the actual NECESSARY yardage advantage is only .9%...an extremely small advantage. That, however, is not the end of the story. Turnovers played the key role here...like most playoff games, indluding those the Pats have been winning during the last 4 years. In this case one play devestated New England. While Denver had only 262 actual yards including penalties assessed against them, that figure is very deceiving. The 100 yard change of direction INT by Champ alters the entire picture. It was literally a 14 point swing.

To figure this, subtract 100 yards from the New England offense, since that's the distance they moved BACKWARDS on that play. That gives them effective positive yardage of only 228 yards for the game. Add that 100 yards to Denver's total since they moved FORWARD on the play. They now have 362 real yards gained. Reconfigure as follows:

New England; yardage needed 902, real yardage gained 228, percentage of yardage gained compared to what was needed is 25.27%

Denver: yardage needed 722, real yardage gained 362, percentage of yardage gained compared to what was needed is 50.1%

I did not include all the turnovers here in order to keep from complicating this further, but the point is that in terms of REAL yardage gained...ie; that which actually was NECESSARY and effective to the outcome of the game, the Broncos outgained the Pats by a 2:1 margin. We hear coaches say it all the time but most fans don't believe it. Football's all about field position and turnovers. It's not how much you gain...but how much you NEEDED TO GAIN. Think of it as paying your bills. Your mortgage company is not impressed with how much you paid...only how much you NEEDED to pay. Failing to pay what you NEED to pay gets you evicted, no matter how big the check you wrote.

The Pats fell short, which is why they are now playing golf and Denver's playing for a trip to the Superbowl.

Simply brilliant!:thumbsup:

[watermock]

Give that man a Guiness! Brilliant! It's not important to have Fox make a bunch of crazy apologies while they make incredible assertions...

How is this anything new? The pundits are scratching their heads we have a home game for the SB. I'm glad the refs were taken to task fo we are not raped again.

Your dealing with a bunch of men acting like divorced, bitter women...We won, played a hard schedule and deserve to be here, and they can't stand it. Period...When the first West of the Platte SB happens they will go bonker and say both teams will lose.

[watermock]

Just tell John Madden to stick the Raiders, the Chargers, and the rest of the posers up his ass...

And LABF, your such a POS, just go back to your dung pile you live in. you give liberals a bad name your such a moron. I swear, If I had the chance, I would hang a red star on your neck and brand you.

[Northman]

Why should the Broncos apologize for the Patriots giving them a short field the entire game? Statistics are for losers ... final scores are for winners. Which one counts?


Nevermind the fact that they BARELY got by the colts after leading 21-3. Oh, and i dont want to hear the excuse about the overturned INT either. LOL

[Octavias]

If the Steelers win this week, it might be because Ben Roethlisberger had a better game than Plummer, but I doubt Plummer alone will lose it. That isn't the system he is in this year

[Octavias]

The highest scoring team is undefeated this season :wiggle:

Not according to pats fans, they say they scored all kinds of points for the broncos last week and lost miserably LOL

[azbroncfan]

Well, lets break this all down. Here are your drives from your last game:


Broncos Drive Chart
Start /Time /TimePoss/ Drive Began/ # of Plays /YardsGained /Result
11:41 2:20 DEN 26 3 8 Punt
05:27 2:53 DEN 36 5 19 Punt
01:23 5:40 DEN 37 11 60 Downs
08:15 2:05 DEN 44 4 26 Interception
03:48 1:07 DEN 38 3 8 Punt
01:51 0:09 NE 40 1 40 Touchdown
01:33 0:50 NE 39 4 7 Field Goal
15:00 1:39 DEN 22 3 5 Punt
07:49 3:10 DEN 20 6 16 Punt
00:47 0:04 NE 1 1 1 Touchdown
12:48 2:38 DEN 33 5 25 Punt
10:10 1:32 NE 15 3 15 Touchdown
08:05 4:45 DEN 23 8 61 Field Goal
02:56 2:56 DEN 39 5 19 End of Game

Some stats just paint a picture. For example, you scored three offensive touchdowns, all of which started inside NE territory and two off DEEP turnovers. You managed one long scoring drive that got you a FG late. I would submit that, not counting NE turnovers, you in fact DID NOT defeat NE's 3-4 defense the way most of you are saying. And lets face it, NE had a DE at MLB, and a WR at DB, among others. In other words, you did not face the real test. I submit that you will face that test come sunday. Don't assume that you can beat the Steelers 3-4, because they are healthy AND no one runs this D like the Steelers.

I guess Defense doesn't count in the outcome of the game? Same could be said about the squeelers they only had one long drive against the colts.

[defenseman]

I can see the bronco defense coming to a slow boil as they hear what is being said, read what is being written. And Jake?, well, my guess is he will be fired up along with the rest of the offense. Keep it coming...by sunday afternoon, I'm thinking the Denver Broncos will be fired up like we haven't seen them in a while......here's to more "expert" dribble fueling the fire...you know the Steelers aren't liking how this is playing out. Which is why they continue to give the broncos major kudos publicly.....dman

[maven]

When I heard the Moose pick Al Harris for his all-pro team over Champ Bailey... After that I didn't care to listen to him.

[texpat]

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=770 border=0><TBODY><TR vAlign=top><TD width=10></TD><TD width=610>
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</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>A (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerindex/A) · B (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerindex/B) · C (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerindex/C) · D (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerindex/D) · E (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerindex/E) · F (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerindex/F) · G (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerindex/G) · H (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerindex/H) · I (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerindex/I) · J (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerindex/J) · K (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerindex/K) · L (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerindex/L) · M (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerindex/M) · N (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerindex/N) · O (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerindex/O) · P (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerindex/P) · Q (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerindex/Q) · R (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerindex/R) · S (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerindex/S) · T (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerindex/T) · U (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerindex/U) · V (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerindex/V) · W (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerindex/W) · X (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerindex/X) · Y (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerindex/Y) · Z (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerindex/Z)

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=player colSpan=2># 16 Jake Plummer</TD><TD align=right width=134 rowSpan=2>http://images.nfl.com/images/helmets/134x121/DEN.gif (http://www.nfl.com/teams/news/DEN)</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD width=70>http://images.nfl.com/images/players/60x80/1003.jpg</TD><TD class=playerbio>Position: QB
Height: 6-2
Weight: 212
Born: 12/19/1974
College: Arizona State
NFL Experience: 9 </TD></TR><TR><TD align=right colSpan=3 height=16>http://images.nfl.com/images/teams/275x16/DEN.gif (http://www.nfl.com/teams/news/DEN)</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR class=teamsbg><TD><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=playerNavOn height=20> Career Stats (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/1003) </TD><TD class=playerNav>|</TD><TD class=playerNav height=20> Game Logs: </TD><TD class=playerNav height=20> 01 (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/1003/gamelogs/2001) </TD><TD class=playerNav height=20> 02 (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/1003/gamelogs/2002) </TD><TD class=playerNav height=20> 03 (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/1003/gamelogs/2003) </TD><TD class=playerNav height=20> 04 (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/1003/gamelogs/2004) </TD><TD class=playerNav height=20> 05 (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/1003/gamelogs/2005) </TD><TD class=playerNav>|</TD><TD class=playerNav height=20> Situational Stats (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/1003/splits/2005) </TD><TD class=playerNav>|</TD><TD class=playerNav height=20> Team Roster (http://www.nfl.com/teams/rosters/DEN) </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR class=bg0 vAlign=top><TD>PASSING</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR class=bg1 vAlign=top><TH>Year</TH><TH>Team</TH><TH>G</TH><TH>GS</TH><TH>Att</TH><TH>Comp</TH><TH>Pct</TH><TH>Yards</TH><TH>YPA</TH><TH>Lg</TH><TH>TD</TH><TH>Int</TH><TH>Tkld</TH><TH>20+</TH><TH>40+</TH><TH>Rate</TH></TR><TR class=bg2><TD>1997</TD><TD>Arizona Cardinals</TD><TD>10</TD><TD>9</TD><TD>296</TD><TD>157</TD><TD>53.0</TD><TD>2203</TD><TD>7.44</TD><TD>70</TD><TD>15</TD><TD>15</TD><TD>52/291</TD><TD>28</TD><TD>7</TD><TD>73.1</TD></TR><TR class=bg3><TD>1998</TD><TD>Arizona Cardinals</TD><TD>16</TD><TD>16</TD><TD>547</TD><TD>324</TD><TD>59.2</TD><TD>3737</TD><TD>6.83</TD><TD>57</TD><TD>17</TD><TD>20</TD><TD>49/280</TD><TD>48</TD><TD>6</TD><TD>75.0</TD></TR><TR class=bg2><TD>1999</TD><TD>Arizona Cardinals</TD><TD>12</TD><TD>11</TD><TD>381</TD><TD>201</TD><TD>52.8</TD><TD>2111</TD><TD>5.54</TD><TD>63</TD><TD>9</TD><TD>24</TD><TD>27/152</TD><TD>21</TD><TD>4</TD><TD>50.8</TD></TR><TR class=bg3><TD>2000</TD><TD>Arizona Cardinals</TD><TD>14</TD><TD>14</TD><TD>475</TD><TD>270</TD><TD>56.8</TD><TD>2946</TD><TD>6.20</TD><TD>70</TD><TD>13</TD><TD>21</TD><TD>22/151</TD><TD>35</TD><TD>10</TD><TD>66.0</TD></TR><TR class=bg2><TD>2001</TD><TD>Arizona Cardinals</TD><TD>16</TD><TD>16</TD><TD>525</TD><TD>304</TD><TD>57.9</TD><TD>3653</TD><TD>6.96</TD><TD>68</TD><TD>18</TD><TD>14</TD><TD>29/204</TD><TD>52</TD><TD>11</TD><TD>79.6</TD></TR><TR class=bg3><TD>2002</TD><TD>Arizona Cardinals</TD><TD>16</TD><TD>16</TD><TD>530</TD><TD>284</TD><TD>53.6</TD><TD>2972</TD><TD>5.61</TD><TD>80</TD><TD>18</TD><TD>20</TD><TD>36/248</TD><TD>29</TD><TD>3</TD><TD>65.7</TD></TR><TR class=bg2><TD>2003</TD><TD>Denver Broncos</TD><TD>11</TD><TD>11</TD><TD>302</TD><TD>189</TD><TD>62.6</TD><TD>2182</TD><TD>7.23</TD><TD>60</TD><TD>15</TD><TD>7</TD><TD>14/73</TD><TD>26</TD><TD>5</TD><TD>91.2</TD></TR><TR class=bg3><TD>2004</TD><TD>Denver Broncos</TD><TD>16</TD><TD>16</TD><TD>521</TD><TD>303</TD><TD>58.2</TD><TD>4089</TD><TD>7.85</TD><TD>85</TD><TD>27</TD><TD>20</TD><TD>15/90</TD><TD>55</TD><TD>9</TD><TD>84.5</TD></TR><TR class=bg2><TD>2005</TD><TD>Denver Broncos</TD><TD>16</TD><TD>16</TD><TD>456</TD><TD>277</TD><TD>60.7</TD><TD>3366</TD><TD>7.38</TD><TD>72</TD><TD>18</TD><TD>7</TD><TD>22/135</TD><TD>44</TD><TD>8</TD><TD>90.2</TD></TR><TR class=bg4><TD>TOTAL</TD><TD></TD><TD>127</TD><TD>125</TD><TD>4033</TD><TD>2309</TD><TD>57.3</TD><TD>27259</TD><TD>6.76</TD><TD>85</TD><TD>150</TD><TD>148</TD><TD>266/1624</TD><TD>338</TD><TD>63</TD><TD>75.1</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>It's very simple. D Johnston's view is based on Plummer's history when he saw him, primarily in AZ. Plummers history has been to throw more INT than TDS up until this year. This weekend we get to see if Plummer has gotten smarter or if he's very mediocre.

[Mile High Shack]

wash, rinse, repeat

we've been hearing that all year long

[watermock]

Shouldn't he be more concerned about Ron Mexico and his lawsuit? Woody Paige predicting Atlanta in the SB? SD the best team? We are standing and ready to pounce on the Lombardi with on more hurdle in Pittsburg! Whoot! Talk about pumped!

No wonder Jake looks like Jesus, he's been cricified more than a pack of criminals. We have transformed Jake from John Holmes to Jesus and we ain't givin' him back. He will deliver US, and just us. We are clearly the chosen ones.

God cut the guy some slack! Noone has ever said he was perfect..even Jesus fought the devil for forty days and fourty nights on the mountain...but that was last year...if he dies on the cross of XL, it won't be because he didn't give his body to us. Ha!

(Mock hopes Jesus has a sense of humor up there because thats blasphomey...BTW...thanks for making Sunsets orange and blue God...)

[BMF Bronco]

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</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>A (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerindex/A) · B (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerindex/B) · C (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerindex/C) · D (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerindex/D) · E (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerindex/E) · F (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerindex/F) · G (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerindex/G) · H (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerindex/H) · I (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerindex/I) · J (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerindex/J) · K (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerindex/K) · L (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerindex/L) · M (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerindex/M) · N (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerindex/N) · O (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerindex/O) · P (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerindex/P) · Q (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerindex/Q) · R (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerindex/R) · S (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerindex/S) · T (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerindex/T) · U (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerindex/U) · V (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerindex/V) · W (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerindex/W) · X (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerindex/X) · Y (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerindex/Y) · Z (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerindex/Z)

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=player colSpan=2># 16 Jake Plummer</TD><TD align=right width=134 rowSpan=2>http://images.nfl.com/images/helmets/134x121/DEN.gif (http://www.nfl.com/teams/news/DEN)</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD width=70>http://images.nfl.com/images/players/60x80/1003.jpg</TD><TD class=playerbio>Position: QB
Height: 6-2
Weight: 212
Born: 12/19/1974
College: Arizona State
NFL Experience: 9 </TD></TR><TR><TD align=right colSpan=3 height=16>http://images.nfl.com/images/teams/275x16/DEN.gif (http://www.nfl.com/teams/news/DEN)</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR class=teamsbg><TD><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=playerNavOn height=20> Career Stats (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/1003) </TD><TD class=playerNav>|</TD><TD class=playerNav height=20> Game Logs: </TD><TD class=playerNav height=20> 01 (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/1003/gamelogs/2001) </TD><TD class=playerNav height=20> 02 (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/1003/gamelogs/2002) </TD><TD class=playerNav height=20> 03 (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/1003/gamelogs/2003) </TD><TD class=playerNav height=20> 04 (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/1003/gamelogs/2004) </TD><TD class=playerNav height=20> 05 (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/1003/gamelogs/2005) </TD><TD class=playerNav>|</TD><TD class=playerNav height=20> Situational Stats (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/1003/splits/2005) </TD><TD class=playerNav>|</TD><TD class=playerNav height=20> Team Roster (http://www.nfl.com/teams/rosters/DEN) </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR class=bg0 vAlign=top><TD>PASSING</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR class=bg1 vAlign=top><TH>Year</TH><TH>Team</TH><TH>G</TH><TH>GS</TH><TH>Att</TH><TH>Comp</TH><TH>Pct</TH><TH>Yards</TH><TH>YPA</TH><TH>Lg</TH><TH>TD</TH><TH>Int</TH><TH>Tkld</TH><TH>20+</TH><TH>40+</TH><TH>Rate</TH></TR><TR class=bg2><TD>1997</TD><TD>Arizona Cardinals</TD><TD>10</TD><TD>9</TD><TD>296</TD><TD>157</TD><TD>53.0</TD><TD>2203</TD><TD>7.44</TD><TD>70</TD><TD>15</TD><TD>15</TD><TD>52/291</TD><TD>28</TD><TD>7</TD><TD>73.1</TD></TR><TR class=bg3><TD>1998</TD><TD>Arizona Cardinals</TD><TD>16</TD><TD>16</TD><TD>547</TD><TD>324</TD><TD>59.2</TD><TD>3737</TD><TD>6.83</TD><TD>57</TD><TD>17</TD><TD>20</TD><TD>49/280</TD><TD>48</TD><TD>6</TD><TD>75.0</TD></TR><TR class=bg2><TD>1999</TD><TD>Arizona Cardinals</TD><TD>12</TD><TD>11</TD><TD>381</TD><TD>201</TD><TD>52.8</TD><TD>2111</TD><TD>5.54</TD><TD>63</TD><TD>9</TD><TD>24</TD><TD>27/152</TD><TD>21</TD><TD>4</TD><TD>50.8</TD></TR><TR class=bg3><TD>2000</TD><TD>Arizona Cardinals</TD><TD>14</TD><TD>14</TD><TD>475</TD><TD>270</TD><TD>56.8</TD><TD>2946</TD><TD>6.20</TD><TD>70</TD><TD>13</TD><TD>21</TD><TD>22/151</TD><TD>35</TD><TD>10</TD><TD>66.0</TD></TR><TR class=bg2><TD>2001</TD><TD>Arizona Cardinals</TD><TD>16</TD><TD>16</TD><TD>525</TD><TD>304</TD><TD>57.9</TD><TD>3653</TD><TD>6.96</TD><TD>68</TD><TD>18</TD><TD>14</TD><TD>29/204</TD><TD>52</TD><TD>11</TD><TD>79.6</TD></TR><TR class=bg3><TD>2002</TD><TD>Arizona Cardinals</TD><TD>16</TD><TD>16</TD><TD>530</TD><TD>284</TD><TD>53.6</TD><TD>2972</TD><TD>5.61</TD><TD>80</TD><TD>18</TD><TD>20</TD><TD>36/248</TD><TD>29</TD><TD>3</TD><TD>65.7</TD></TR><TR class=bg2><TD>2003</TD><TD>Denver Broncos</TD><TD>11</TD><TD>11</TD><TD>302</TD><TD>189</TD><TD>62.6</TD><TD>2182</TD><TD>7.23</TD><TD>60</TD><TD>15</TD><TD>7</TD><TD>14/73</TD><TD>26</TD><TD>5</TD><TD>91.2</TD></TR><TR class=bg3><TD>2004</TD><TD>Denver Broncos</TD><TD>16</TD><TD>16</TD><TD>521</TD><TD>303</TD><TD>58.2</TD><TD>4089</TD><TD>7.85</TD><TD>85</TD><TD>27</TD><TD>20</TD><TD>15/90</TD><TD>55</TD><TD>9</TD><TD>84.5</TD></TR><TR class=bg2><TD>2005</TD><TD>Denver Broncos</TD><TD>16</TD><TD>16</TD><TD>456</TD><TD>277</TD><TD>60.7</TD><TD>3366</TD><TD>7.38</TD><TD>72</TD><TD>18</TD><TD>7</TD><TD>22/135</TD><TD>44</TD><TD>8</TD><TD>90.2</TD></TR><TR class=bg4><TD>TOTAL</TD><TD></TD><TD>127</TD><TD>125</TD><TD>4033</TD><TD>2309</TD><TD>57.3</TD><TD>27259</TD><TD>6.76</TD><TD>85</TD><TD>150</TD><TD>148</TD><TD>266/1624</TD><TD>338</TD><TD>63</TD><TD>75.1</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>It's very simple. D Johnston's view is based on Plummer's history when he saw him, primarily in AZ. Plummers history has been to throw more INT than TDS up until this year. This weekend we get to see if Plummer has gotten smarter or if he's very mediocre.
let's try up until he came to the Broncos, starting in '03 he bucked the trend of throwing more ints then tds.

[BroncoBuff]

Faux Sports is almost as moronic as Faux News.
WORD.

[footstepsfrom#27]

This weekend we get to see if Plummer has gotten smarter or if he's very mediocre.
This weekend? I think the previous three years and 51 games outta carry a bit of weight too...don't ya think?

Plummer=Steve Young...horrible start in a horrible situation to go with a resurected career at age 30. Give him his due.

[~Crash~]

why we have had a short field all season??? I will give you the reasons.

1. our kicker was worth everything we gave up for him .

2. we been getting turnovers as teams start to press to catch up .

[Florida_Bronco]

Most people on this board know me as the stat freak, but there's no way I'd offer up something as lame as this. Your "analysis" is foundationally flawed on several levels. Let me offer something considerably more relevant using the same data your using.

Yardage gained vs yardage actuallly needed to win. Never heard of that? That's because it's my own proprietary stat. It works like this:

Excluding a brief one play possesion at the end of the half where Brady kneeled to run out the clock, the Pats had 11 posessions in this game. Tabulating their starting field position at the beginning of each drive, the Patriots had a total of 902 yards between them and the goal line for those 11 posessions. In other words to score a TD on every posession...a perfect offensive game...they would have had to gain 902 yards to accomplish this. Since NE gained only 420 yards in total offense, and had 86 yards in penalties, they actually gained only 338 yards in the game, or 37.4% of the yardage they needed to score on a TD on all 11 posessions. (To avoid confusion I've subtracted penalty yardage off each teams total offensive production rather than break it down by defense, offense and special teams.)

This stat is helpful to understand how efficiently the New England offense moved the ball, but it does not tell the whole story. How much yardage the Patriots gained means less than how much they NEEDED TO GAIN in order to score enough points to win.

While Denver gained only 286 yards in the game, their 14 posessions put them a total of only 782 yards away from the goal line, and excluding the last drive where Plummer kneeled down to kill the clock, that figure changes to 722. In order to score a TD all 14 times they had the ball Denver would have needed to gain 722 yards. Their 286 yards becomes 262 when we subract the 24 yards in penalties they had. This means the Denver offense gained 36.3% of the offense they needed to score a TD on every drive.

So while New England outgained Denver by 134 yards, the actual NECESSARY yardage advantage is only .9%...an extremely small advantage. That, however, is not the end of the story. Turnovers played the key role here...like most playoff games, indluding those the Pats have been winning during the last 4 years. In this case one play devestated New England. While Denver had only 262 actual yards including penalties assessed against them, that figure is very deceiving. The 100 yard change of direction INT by Champ alters the entire picture. It was literally a 14 point swing.

To figure this, subtract 100 yards from the New England offense, since that's the distance they moved BACKWARDS on that play. That gives them effective positive yardage of only 228 yards for the game. Add that 100 yards to Denver's total since they moved FORWARD on the play. They now have 362 real yards gained. Reconfigure as follows:

New England; yardage needed 902, real yardage gained 228, percentage of yardage gained compared to what was needed is 25.27%

Denver: yardage needed 722, real yardage gained 362, percentage of yardage gained compared to what was needed is 50.1%

I did not include all the turnovers here in order to keep from complicating this further, but the point is that in terms of REAL yardage gained...ie; that which actually was NECESSARY and effective to the outcome of the game, the Broncos outgained the Pats by a 2:1 margin. We hear coaches say it all the time but most fans don't believe it. Football's all about field position and turnovers. It's not how much you gain...but how much you NEEDED TO GAIN. Think of it as paying your bills. Your mortgage company is not impressed with how much you paid...only how much you NEEDED to pay. Failing to pay what you NEED to pay gets you evicted, no matter how big the check you wrote.

The Pats fell short, which is why they are now playing golf and Denver's playing for a trip to the Superbowl.

This has to be one of the best posts.....ever.

[texpat]

This weekend? I think the previous three years and 51 games outta carry a bit of weight too...don't ya think?

Plummer=Steve Young...horrible start in a horrible situation to go with a resurected career at age 30. Give him his due.

Get off the crack!

Let Plummer win something big before you compare him to Young!

[Florida_Bronco]

Get off the crack!

Let Plummer win something big before you compare him to Young!

Steve Young only won a single Super Bowl in San Fran.

And also, statistically speaking, Plummer has done just as well in Denver as Young did in San Fran.

[texpat]

Steve Young only won a single Super Bowl in San Fran.

And also, statistically speaking, Plummer has done just as well in Denver as Young did in San Fran.

And how many championships/SB's does Plummer have????

The same number as Rothlesberger, Hasselback, even Delhomme has been to a SB.

[Florida_Bronco]

And how many championships/SB's does Plummer have????

The same number as Rothlesberger, Hasselback, even Delhomme has been to a SB.

Steve Young didn't win his first Super Bowl until he was 34 years old, his 8th year with the 49ers. Jake Plummer is only 30 years old and in his 3rd year with the Broncos.

At similar stages in their careers, Jake Plummer's stats with Denver and Steve Young's with the 49ers are very similar.

[KipCorrington25]

Poor man's Tom Rathman.

He wasn't even close to being that good. Him, more than any other player on those Cowboy offenses was along for the ride. Rank their starters 1 through 11 and he ranks 11th by a long way.

Mediocre fullback that rode everyone else's jock to credability.

[freak6]

Faux Sports is almost as moronic as Faux News.

Ahhhh mennnnnn........

Got loufa??

[Odysseus]

Stats are data filled white lies, they can be twisted to mean anything....

10% of fans actually understand this.
30% want to believe it but keep getting suckered.
70% of fans have no clue what you are talking about.

[Odysseus]

2003 Denver Broncos 11 11 302 189 62.6 2182 7.23 60 15 7 14/73 26 5 91.2
2004 Denver Broncos 16 16 521 303 58.2 4089 7.85 85 27 20 15/90 55 9 84.5
2005 Denver Broncos 16 16 456 277 60.7 3366 7.38 72 18 7 22/135 44 8 90.2

If you delete the Arizona crap this doesn't look half bad. I think Plummer has made some dramatic improvements over his Cardinals days. I think ANY of the Cardinals fans...let's call them the experts on this issue...would agree that Jake is for real.

Keep waiting for old Jake.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Get off the crack!

Let Plummer win something big before you compare him to Young!

You get off the crack. Check it out: http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?p=925320&highlight=%22steve+young%22#post925320

A look at Steve vs. Jake with their numbers before and after leaving to join the 49ers and Broncos respectively. Young's numbers include the 2 years of USFL stats. This is almost eerie, especially since both played in the WCO and were tutored by Shanahan...I also ran Youngs numbers three years into his new offense...at the point Jake is now...not as impressive as what he finished his career with...

Young:
Before SF: INT% 1 in 24.1
At SF: INT% 1 in 43.6

Plummer:
Arizona: INT% 1 in 24.67
Denver: INT% 1 in 37.61

Young:
Before SF: TD% 1 in 39.29
At SF: TD% 1 in 16.50

Plummer:
Arizona: TD% 1 in 30.26
Denver: TD % 1 in 21.31

Young:
Before SF: Com% 54.6
SF: Com% 63.51

Plummer:
Arizona: Com% 55.5
Denver: Com% 60.5

Young:
Before SF: Avg ypp 6.91
SF: Avg ypp 8.03

Plummer:
Arizona: Avg ypp 6.43
Denver: Avg ypp 7.48

Young:
Before SF: QB rating 66.52
SF: QB rating 96.59

Plummer:
Arizona: QB rating 68.36
Denver: QB rating 88.63

I should clarify I'm not suggesting Jake will be in the HOF...just that the comparison to Young is valid since they both went through similiar routes to get where the were, have similair styles, played in the same offense and followed HOF QB's while both were also coached by Shanahan...and remember Shanny tried to get Young to come to Denver and got Jake instead.

Jake deserves more respect than he's gotten...especially if you look where Young was before he got into the WCO system...pretty similiar.

Not only is the comparison to Young justified, it's MORE than justified given the unique set of parallel circumstances they share with Shanahan as the nexus point. As for the ring...he may be getting that pretty soon as well...

[Ray Finkle]

10% of fans actually understand this.
30% want to believe it but keep getting suckered.
70% of fans have no clue what you are talking about.




thank you....I was hoping someone understood it...

[broncocalijohn]

Most people on this board know me as the stat freak, but there's no way I'd offer up something as lame as this. Your "analysis" is foundationally flawed on several levels. Let me offer something considerably more relevant using the same data your using.

Yardage gained vs yardage actuallly needed to win. Never heard of that? That's because it's my own proprietary stat. It works like this:

Excluding a brief one play possesion at the end of the half where Brady kneeled to run out the clock, the Pats had 11 posessions in this game. Tabulating their starting field position at the beginning of each drive, the Patriots had a total of 902 yards between them and the goal line for those 11 posessions. In other words to score a TD on every posession...a perfect offensive game...they would have had to gain 902 yards to accomplish this. Since NE gained only 420 yards in total offense, and had 86 yards in penalties, they actually gained only 338 yards in the game, or 37.4% of the yardage they needed to score on a TD on all 11 posessions. (To avoid confusion I've subtracted penalty yardage off each teams total offensive production rather than break it down by defense, offense and special teams.)

This stat is helpful to understand how efficiently the New England offense moved the ball, but it does not tell the whole story. How much yardage the Patriots gained means less than how much they NEEDED TO GAIN in order to score enough points to win.

While Denver gained only 286 yards in the game, their 14 posessions put them a total of only 782 yards away from the goal line, and excluding the last drive where Plummer kneeled down to kill the clock, that figure changes to 722. In order to score a TD all 14 times they had the ball Denver would have needed to gain 722 yards. Their 286 yards becomes 262 when we subract the 24 yards in penalties they had. This means the Denver offense gained 36.3% of the offense they needed to score a TD on every drive.

So while New England outgained Denver by 134 yards, the actual NECESSARY yardage advantage is only .9%...an extremely small advantage. That, however, is not the end of the story. Turnovers played the key role here...like most playoff games, indluding those the Pats have been winning during the last 4 years. In this case one play devestated New England. While Denver had only 262 actual yards including penalties assessed against them, that figure is very deceiving. The 100 yard change of direction INT by Champ alters the entire picture. It was literally a 14 point swing.

To figure this, subtract 100 yards from the New England offense, since that's the distance they moved BACKWARDS on that play. That gives them effective positive yardage of only 228 yards for the game. Add that 100 yards to Denver's total since they moved FORWARD on the play. They now have 362 real yards gained. Reconfigure as follows:

New England; yardage needed 902, real yardage gained 228, percentage of yardage gained compared to what was needed is 25.27%

Denver: yardage needed 722, real yardage gained 362, percentage of yardage gained compared to what was needed is 50.1%

I did not include all the turnovers here in order to keep from complicating this further, but the point is that in terms of REAL yardage gained...ie; that which actually was NECESSARY and effective to the outcome of the game, the Broncos outgained the Pats by a 2:1 margin. We hear coaches say it all the time but most fans don't believe it. Football's all about field position and turnovers. It's not how much you gain...but how much you NEEDED TO GAIN. Think of it as paying your bills. Your mortgage company is not impressed with how much you paid...only how much you NEEDED to pay. Failing to pay what you NEED to pay gets you evicted, no matter how big the check you wrote.

The Pats fell short, which is why they are now playing golf and Denver's playing for a trip to the Superbowl.

USC TROJANS use it also. The radio announcers always use total accesible yards to yards gained. Many USC games they had over 90%! Pretty awesome. It is a great stat. Also, look at our red zone TDs. I think we are 3rd in the league. These experts are comparing last years team or jake's career b4 broncos. They are like the Faider fans. They cant speak of today only the past.

[BroncoSoja]

Well, lets break this all down. Here are your drives from your last game:


Broncos Drive Chart
Start /Time /TimePoss/ Drive Began/ # of Plays /YardsGained /Result
11:41 2:20 DEN 26 3 8 Punt
05:27 2:53 DEN 36 5 19 Punt
01:23 5:40 DEN 37 11 60 Downs
08:15 2:05 DEN 44 4 26 Interception
03:48 1:07 DEN 38 3 8 Punt
01:51 0:09 NE 40 1 40 Touchdown
01:33 0:50 NE 39 4 7 Field Goal
15:00 1:39 DEN 22 3 5 Punt
07:49 3:10 DEN 20 6 16 Punt
00:47 0:04 NE 1 1 1 Touchdown
12:48 2:38 DEN 33 5 25 Punt
10:10 1:32 NE 15 3 15 Touchdown
08:05 4:45 DEN 23 8 61 Field Goal
02:56 2:56 DEN 39 5 19 End of Game

Some stats just paint a picture. For example, you scored three offensive touchdowns, all of which started inside NE territory and two off DEEP turnovers. You managed one long scoring drive that got you a FG late. I would submit that, not counting NE turnovers, you in fact DID NOT defeat NE's 3-4 defense the way most of you are saying. And lets face it, NE had a DE at MLB, and a WR at DB, among others. In other words, you did not face the real test. I submit that you will face that test come sunday. Don't assume that you can beat the Steelers 3-4, because they are healthy AND no one runs this D like the Steelers.

Denver's Offensive unit has been Decent(and only decent) this year, expecially with the pass.. The D (and particularly Champ Bailey) has won alot of games for us this year.. However, The NE game was a horrible Offensive effort for us.. You will be a fool to believe that we will have two of those in a roll.. We will absoluty demolish your team on both sides of the ball, sorta like Indy did in your first meeting. Please do not kid yourself and think we will lay a egg offensively 2 home games in a row..

That being said Pit wins 144-6

[texpat]

Steve Young didn't win his first Super Bowl until he was 34 years old, his 8th year with the 49ers. Jake Plummer is only 30 years old and in his 3rd year with the Broncos.

At similar stages in their careers, Jake Plummer's stats with Denver and Steve Young's with the 49ers are very similar.

So I guess we should just put Jake in the HOF since he's similar to Young at this stage.

Using your logic, we will have to wait until JAke is 34 to see him win a SB since he is similar to Young which I guess means it won't happen this year.

[texpat]

He wasn't even close to being that good. Him, more than any other player on those Cowboy offenses was along for the ride. Rank their starters 1 through 11 and he ranks 11th by a long way.

Mediocre fullback that rode everyone else's jock to credability.

Best blocking fullback in the last 30 years. Caught the ball well out of backfield. Emmitt owes DJ big time and admits he would have never made #1 rusher without him.

[texpat]

You get off the crack. Check it out: http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?p=925320&highlight=%22steve+young%22#post925320

Jake deserves more respect than he's gotten...especially if you look where Young was before he got into the WCO system...pretty similiar.

Not only is the comparison to Young justified, it's MORE than justified given the unique set of parallel circumstances they share with Shanahan as the nexus point. As for the ring...he may be getting that pretty soon as well...

I really don't get your argument how Jake deserves more respect based on where Young was before the WCO.

So every QB that sucks just needs to find a team with the WCO or hook up with Shanahan to be considered good.

How bout win something meaningful.

[azbroncfan]

1983 den | 11 | 123 259 47.5 1663 6.4 7 14 | 28 146 1 |
| 1984 den | 15 | 214 380 56.3 2598 6.8 18 15 | 56 237 1 |
| 1985 den | 16 | 327 605 54.0 3891 6.4 22 23 | 51 253 0 |
| 1986 den | 16 | 280 504 55.6 3485 6.9 19 13 | 52 257 1 |
| 1987 den | 12 | 224 410 54.6 3198 7.8 19 12 | 66 304 4 |
| 1988 den | 15 | 274 496 55.2 3309 6.7 17 19 | 54 234 1 |
| 1989 den | 15 | 223 416 53.6 3051 7.3 18 18 | 48 244 3 |
| 1990 den | 16 | 294 502 58.6 3526 7.0 15 14 | 50 258 3 |
| 1991 den | 16 | 242 451 53.7 3253 7.2 13 12 | 55 255 6 |
| 1992 den | 12 | 174 316 55.1 2242 7.1 10 17 | 34 94 2 |
| 1993 den | 16 | 348 551 63.2 4030 7.3 25 10 | 44 153 0 |
| 1994 den | 14 | 307 494 62.1 3490 7.1 16 10 | 58 235 4 |
| 1995 den | 16 | 316 542 58.3 3970 7.3 26 14 | 41 176 1 |
| 1996 den | 15 | 287 466 61.6 3328 7.1 26 14 | 50 249 4 |
| 1997 den | 16 | 280 502 55.8 3635 7.2 27 11 | 50 218 1 |
| 1998 den | 13 | 210 356 59.0 2806 7.9 22 10 | 37 94 1 |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| TOTAL | 234 | 4123 7250 56.9 51475 7.1 300 226 | 774 3407 33 |

Stats suck for QBs as we have discussed many times, Look at Elways #'s, they aren't that impressive until shanny came, but he has the most W's which is what counts.

[defenseman]

And W's is what it is all about. Throw the rest of it out......dman

[Atlas]

So I guess we should just put Jake in the HOF since he's similar to Young at this stage.

Using your logic, we will have to wait until JAke is 34 to see him win a SB since he is similar to Young which I guess means it won't happen this year.


Your an idiot. The point was just because Jake was bad in Arizona doesn't mean he is a bad QB. Football is a team sport.

You can leave now.

[BoiseBluTurf]

Your an idiot. The point was just because Jake was bad in Arizona doesn't mean he is a bad QB. Football is a team sport.

You can leave now.


Tex is just another fan that can't admit when they have been proven wrong... as I began to read this thread I was with Tex... I didn't think that Jake should be compared to Young... as I kept reading... and objectivly read the numbers... I changed my opinion... Tex is guilty of so many fans... they back themselves into a corner with rhetoric so far they they can't back down when proven wrong... Nice job tex... way to come across as a level headed objective fan!


Michael

[Ray Finkle]

So I guess we should just put Jake in the HOF since he's similar to Young at this stage.

Using your logic, we will have to wait until JAke is 34 to see him win a SB since he is similar to Young which I guess means it won't happen this year.


I should clarify I'm not suggesting Jake will be in the HOF...just that the comparison to Young is valid since they both went through similiar routes to get where the were, have similair styles, played in the same offense and followed HOF QB's while both were also coached by Shanahan...and remember Shanny tried to get Young to come to Denver and got Jake instead.


I guess you missed this part of the post....kind of hard to miss you know....

[texpat]

Tex is just another fan that can't admit when they have been proven wrong... as I began to read this thread I was with Tex... I didn't think that Jake should be compared to Young... as I kept reading... and objectivly read the numbers... I changed my opinion... Tex is guilty of so many fans... they back themselves into a corner with rhetoric so far they they can't back down when proven wrong... Nice job tex... way to come across as a level headed objective fan!


Michael

Michael,

My whole argument has been, until Jake actually wins a big game, you can't put him in the same class as Young.

Every stat that was compared, Young had better numbers with SF than Jake had with Denver.

[BoiseBluTurf]

Michael,

My whole argument has been, until Jake actually wins a big game, you can't put him in the same class as Young.

Every stat that was compared, Young had better numbers with SF than Jake had with Denver.


Tex, Your whole argument was debunked... the fact that Jake hasn't won any championships doesn't change the fact that the numbers are COMPARABLE! Nobody is putting Jake into the Hall... they are just illustrating the FACT that numbers wise... Jake is very comparable to Young.



Thank you,


Michael

[texpat]

You get off the crack. Check it out: http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?p=925320&highlight=%22steve+young%22#post925320

A look at Steve vs. Jake with their numbers before and after leaving to join the 49ers and Broncos respectively. Young's numbers include the 2 years of USFL stats. This is almost eerie, especially since both played in the WCO and were tutored by Shanahan...I also ran Youngs numbers three years into his new offense...at the point Jake is now...not as impressive as what he finished his career with...

Young:
Before SF: INT% 1 in 24.1
At SF: INT% 1 in 43.6

Plummer:
Arizona: INT% 1 in 24.67
Denver: INT% 1 in 37.61 LESS

Young:
Before SF: TD% 1 in 39.29
At SF: TD% 1 in 16.50

Plummer:
Arizona: TD% 1 in 30.26
Denver: TD % 1 in 21.31 LESS

Young:
Before SF: Com% 54.6
SF: Com% 63.51

Plummer:
Arizona: Com% 55.5
Denver: Com% 60.5

Young:
Before SF: Avg ypp 6.91
SF: Avg ypp 8.03

Plummer:
Arizona: Avg ypp 6.43
Denver: Avg ypp 7.48 LESS

Young:
Before SF: QB rating 66.52
SF: QB rating 96.59

Plummer:
Arizona: QB rating 68.36
Denver: QB rating 88.63 LESS

I should clarify I'm not suggesting Jake will be in the HOF...just that the comparison to Young is valid since they both went through similiar routes to get where the were, have similair styles, played in the same offense and followed HOF QB's while both were also coached by Shanahan...and remember Shanny tried to get Young to come to Denver and got Jake instead.

Jake deserves more respect than he's gotten...especially if you look where Young was before he got into the WCO system...pretty similiar.

Not only is the comparison to Young justified, it's MORE than justified given the unique set of parallel circumstances they share with Shanahan as the nexus point. As for the ring...he may be getting that pretty soon as well...


Young INT% 1 in 43.6 PLUMMER INT% 1 in 37.61 PLUMMER LESS


Young TD% 1 in 16.50 PLUMMER TD % 1 in 21.31 PLUMMER LESS


Young Com% 63.51 PLUMMER Com% 60.5 PLUMMER LESS

Young Avg ypp 8.03 PLUMMER Avg ypp 7.48 PLUMMER LESS

Young QB rating 96.59 PLUMMER QB rating 88.63 PLUMMER LESS

These are not my numbers but it is obvious that Plummer is less in every category.

So I guess you just can't read numbers.

Again, win a meaningful game.

[terry251973]

Not hating at all! But you can call it what you will..stats don't lie!! And I've never seen a stat catagory that lists "mojo" or "lung capacity above 5000 ft." Until that day comes, I'll take the ODDS.:thumbsup:
Heres a stat for you steelhead.
DENVER 13-3 REG SEASON PITTS 11-5
DENVER PLAYING AT HOME.
end of story.

[BoiseBluTurf]

Young INT% 1 in 43.6 PLUMMER INT% 1 in 37.61 PLUMMER LESS


Young TD% 1 in 16.50 PLUMMER TD % 1 in 21.31 PLUMMER LESS


Young Com% 63.51 PLUMMER Com% 60.5 PLUMMER LESS

Young Avg ypp 8.03 PLUMMER Avg ypp 7.48 PLUMMER LESS

Young QB rating 96.59 PLUMMER QB rating 88.63 PLUMMER LESS

These are not my numbers but it is obvious that Plummer is less in every category.

So I guess you just can't read numbers.

Again, win a meaningful game.


You are doing nothing but proving my origional accusation... THE NUMBERS ARE COMPARABLE! No where did I say they were better... matter of fact I even somewhat agreed with you when I said nobody wanted to put him in the hall... you want to keep digging... go right ahead... Apparantly... nothing will change your mind... again, part of my origional response.


That is all,

Michael

[texpat]

Tex, Your whole argument was debunked... the fact that Jake hasn't won any championships doesn't change the fact that the numbers are COMPARABLE! Nobody is putting Jake into the Hall... they are just illustrating the FACT that numbers wise... Jake is very comparable to Young.



Thank you,


Michael


4th place is comparable to 1st place in a 32 team league, but what seperates them is winners.

Young - winner

Plummer - maybe someday, but hasn't proven it.

Thank you,


Texpat

[Headless Hessian Rider]

Well, lets break this all down. Here are your drives from your last game:


Broncos Drive Chart
Start /Time /TimePoss/ Drive Began/ # of Plays /YardsGained /Result
11:41 2:20 DEN 26 3 8 Punt
05:27 2:53 DEN 36 5 19 Punt
01:23 5:40 DEN 37 11 60 Downs
08:15 2:05 DEN 44 4 26 Interception
03:48 1:07 DEN 38 3 8 Punt
01:51 0:09 NE 40 1 40 Touchdown
01:33 0:50 NE 39 4 7 Field Goal
15:00 1:39 DEN 22 3 5 Punt
07:49 3:10 DEN 20 6 16 Punt
00:47 0:04 NE 1 1 1 Touchdown
12:48 2:38 DEN 33 5 25 Punt
10:10 1:32 NE 15 3 15 Touchdown
08:05 4:45 DEN 23 8 61 Field Goal
02:56 2:56 DEN 39 5 19 End of Game

Some stats just paint a picture. For example, you scored three offensive touchdowns, all of which started inside NE territory and two off DEEP turnovers. You managed one long scoring drive that got you a FG late. I would submit that, not counting NE turnovers, you in fact DID NOT defeat NE's 3-4 defense the way most of you are saying. And lets face it, NE had a DE at MLB, and a WR at DB, among others. In other words, you did not face the real test. I submit that you will face that test come sunday. Don't assume that you can beat the Steelers 3-4, because they are healthy AND no one runs this D like the Steelers.

What is wrong with scoring points in deep field position??? Should our DB ran backwards to our endzone just to achieve a worser field position??? That's :chargstin !!! Sometimes Offensive win games, sometimes defense win games. As long as Denver wins i don't care who prepared and who finished the win. ;) Go Broncos :sunshine:

[Knee Deep]

Michael,

Young had better numbers with SF than Jake had with Denver.

Do you think maybe #80 (i.e. GOAT) might have had an influence on Young's numbers? Supporting cast makes a difference, as I am sure Plummer can attest to.

But this is a complete tangent to the thread topic. Johnston is just the same as all the other genius pundits. Although I liked Don Banks' work as a Vikings beat writer in the late 1990s, he is no different -- regurgitating the same old tired story line.

[defenseman]

Lung capacity above 5000ft??? They fly in saturday afternoon, it's a non issue. Now, dehydration, that can be an issue, quite quickly I might add...dman

*Bettis is the only one I know of on the steelers who will have to take some extra precautions due to his asthma.

[BoiseBluTurf]

4th place is comparable to 1st place in a 32 team league, but what seperates them is winners.

Young - winner

Plummer - maybe someday, but hasn't proven it.

Thank you,


Texpat


I will just walk away from this one... have fun in the corner.


Michael

[The Big E]

What is wrong with scoring points in deep field position??? Should our DB ran backwards to our endzone just to achieve a worser field position??? That's :chargstin !!! Sometimes Offensive win games, sometimes defense win games. As long as Denver wins i don't care who prepared and who finished the win. ;) Go Broncos :sunshine:
Nobody will acknowledge our D, who played a damn good game. We won a playoff game by 2 TD's, and nothing else really matters.

Many here don't like Jim Rome, and I don't listen to him any more, but I agree with the #1 rule of the jungle: SCOREBOARD! And in this case, it ain't even close.

[texpat]

Do you think maybe #80 (i.e. GOAT) might have had an influence on Young's numbers? Supporting cast makes a difference, as I am sure Plummer can attest to.

But this is a complete tangent to the thread topic. Johnston is just the same as all the other genius pundits. Although I liked Don Banks' work as a Vikings beat writer in the late 1990s, he is no different -- regurgitating the same old tired story line.

Absolutely supporting cast makes a difference.

My first post on this was that Johnston's view has been formed on his experience of watching Jake, that included many games between the Cowboys & Cards where Jake screwed up totally. That represents the majority of his career and has to be considered in the opinion. Now we know opinions are like A**holes.

My opinion is that Jake has a ways to go before being compared to Young.

I also think that the poster, who because he didn't like Johnston's opinion, said that Johnston was a bad fullback needs to go back and watch some film.

Love to All!

[Headless Hessian Rider]

:thumbsup: Nobody will acknowledge our D, who played a damn good game. We won a playoff game by 2 TD's, and nothing else really matters.

Many here don't like Jim Rome, and I don't listen to him any more, but I agree with the #1 rule of the jungle: SCOREBOARD! And in this case, it ain't even close.
:thumbsup: I totally agree with that!!! :bronxrox:

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

GO BACK TO POLITIC forum. You never can just be a fan LA. Always running you rliberal sheeeat

4321~

I'd tell your monkey a$$ where to go also, but this is a PG-rated forum.

You really shouldn't bring your baggage from the politics forum here.

[BroncoBuff]

Ahhhh mennnnnn........

Got loufa??
YOU ARE ON NOTICE, SIR!

[BroncoBuff]

Man, I'm a Jake-believer ... I'm thinking he's our guy for the next 5 - 6 years, and I'm GREAT with that ....

But compare him to Steve Young?! Come on!

imho, from a purely skills-set basis, Steve Young was the best QB ever.

[BroncoBuff]

GO BACK TO POLITIC forum. You never can just be a fan LA. Always running you rliberal sheeeat
Hey, Richard! Put your skirt away and get real! It was a just a quick quip!

If you can't handle it, go read your ID history books about how your ancestors rode dinosaurs to church.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Young INT% 1 in 43.6 PLUMMER INT% 1 in 37.61 PLUMMER LESS


Young TD% 1 in 16.50 PLUMMER TD % 1 in 21.31 PLUMMER LESS


Young Com% 63.51 PLUMMER Com% 60.5 PLUMMER LESS

Young Avg ypp 8.03 PLUMMER Avg ypp 7.48 PLUMMER LESS

Young QB rating 96.59 PLUMMER QB rating 88.63 PLUMMER LESS

These are not my numbers but it is obvious that Plummer is less in every category.

So I guess you just can't read numbers.

Again, win a meaningful game.

Apparently you missed this from my post:

I also ran Youngs numbers three years into his new offense...at the point Jake is now...not as impressive as what he finished his career with...

Jake's numbers at this point in his career compare more favorably with Young's at the same point in his career with the 9ers, however, a fact you conveniently ignored...and as others pointed out, you missed the entire point, and second, as has also been pointed out, only an uneducated fan would fail to recognize the huge advantage of playing with the weapons Young had, most notably Rice. You failed to mention that several of Jake's numbers were better in his AZ years than Young's were in his pre-49er days...

It's ludicrous to blame Jake for not winning a championship after spending 6 years in Arizona of all places. He's taken Denver to the playoffs all 3 years he's been here, and it's not his fault our defense wasn't built to combat the Colts the last two years. Plummer's winning percentage of 68.7% with Denver is one of the highest in the NFL and his 28 come from behind 4th quarter or OT wins are the highest in the league since '95. At his current pace he has an outside chance to challenge Elway with the most come from behind wins in NFL history. I think everyone would agree that if he wins the title this year, not only are the comparisons to Young justified, they are MANDATORY.

[Odysseus]

thank you....I was hoping someone understood it...

Numbers never lie the but stats can and often do.

[Bronco Billy]

Numbers never lie the but stats can and often do.


14-3 is a stat that doesn't lie! :strong:

[Bronx33]

14-3 is a stat that doesn't lie! :strong:


The mooses IQ doesn't lie either.

[broncocalijohn]

4321~

I'd tell your monkey a$$ where to go also, but this is a PG-rated forum.

You really shouldn't bring your baggage from the politics forum here.

Gee, you seem to not mention what remarks you made on this thread. Go back and quote it and see if maybe YOU are bringing politics to this forum. Infact, when are you NOT at the Politic forum? I see your name on this thread and wonder, "can he just talk about the broncos?" Nope, you slam Fox News for your political leaning. So take your government assisted BAGGAGE back to the politic forum where you seem to roam.

[Rulon Velvet Jones]

Reading posts from both factions has led me to believe this game will be a 48-hour scoreless dogfight. No one will score and, because we all get tired of watching them struggle, the NFL decides to put the Pats in the Super Bowl in one of our places.

It's making me retarded. There's this TMC chief on SteelerNation that has broken the game down to such a level that the Broncos wouldn't even be able to hang with the Sisters of the Poor with what they've got going for them.

I'll be making black bean/turkey chili. See you fags on Sunday.

[Sassy]

Hey Rulon you need to put the recipe for that in the tailgate recipe section ;D

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Gee, you seem to not mention what remarks you made on this thread. Go back and quote it and see if maybe YOU are bringing politics to this forum. Infact, when are you NOT at the Politic forum? I see your name on this thread and wonder, "can he just talk about the broncos?" Nope, you slam Fox News for your political leaning. So take your government assisted BAGGAGE back to the politic forum where you seem to roam.

http://www.ohanaed.com/images/4533.gif

I said "Faux Sports is as moronic as Faux News" or words to that effect.

If you want to be a crybaby and interpret that as "bringing politics into this forum" then that's your problem.

BTW, you sure don't seem to have a problem when one of your like-minded buddies does exactly what you are accusing me of doing.

Anyway, I'm done with your whiney a$$.

Go Broncos! :gobroncos

[Gort]

Faux Sports is almost as moronic as Faux News.

your avatar ought to be the other end of the Broncos mascot. it suits you better.

[texpat]

Apparently you missed this from my post:



Jake's numbers at this point in his career compare more favorably with Young's at the same point in his career with the 9ers, however, a fact you conveniently ignored......

At his current pace he has an outside chance to challenge Elway with the most come from behind wins in NFL history. I think everyone would agree that if he wins the title this year, not only are the comparisons to Young justified, they are MANDATORY.

RE 1st point

The only numbers you have posted show that Young w/SF had better #'s than Jake w/DEN so I don't know how they compare more favorably. It's hard to ignore something you haven't produced.

2nd Point:

I have never understood why someone would be so proud of come from behind wins.

My question to this is: WHO THE H*LL WAS THE QB THAT LET THE TEAM GET BEHIND IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Young, Aikman, Staubach, Bradshaw, Griese, Marino, etc. didn't have the number of opportunities to come from behind because they led their teams to leads in the first 3 quarters.

MHO

[BroncoInferno]

RE 1st point

The only numbers you have posted show that Young w/SF had better #'s than Jake w/DEN so I don't know how they compare more favorably. It's hard to ignore something you haven't produced.

2nd Point:

I have never understood why someone would be so proud of come from behind wins.

My question to this is: WHO THE H*LL WAS THE QB THAT LET THE TEAM GET BEHIND IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Young, Aikman, Staubach, Bradshaw, Griese, Marino, etc. didn't have the number of opportunities to come from behind because they led their teams to leads in the first 3 quarters.

MHO

Taco, it might be wise to stop allowing the short bus leave it's entrails behind on your site. Just a thought.

[texpat]

Taco, it might be wise to stop allowing the short bus leave it's entrails behind on your site. Just a thought.

That's enlightening. Now why don't you add something or have you had your thought for the day. LOLLOLLOLLLOL

[-Slap-]

The one entertaining thing about Johnston is his depth of hatred for Deion Sanders. He practically spits out the words when he's discussing Neon.

[BroncoInferno]

That's enlightening. Now why don't you add something or have you had your thought for the day. LOLLOLLOLLLOL

Why? It's already been explained to you that nobody thinks those numbers are better than Young's, but rather are comparable. And they are! Apparently, you do not realize that 'comparable' does not mean 'better' or even 'the same'. Otherwise, you would not continue to make a fool of yourself on this thread by bullheadedly misinterpreting the analysis.

[texpat]

Man, I'm a Jake-believer ... I'm thinking he's our guy for the next 5 - 6 years, and I'm GREAT with that ....

But compare him to Steve Young?! Come on!

imho, from a purely skills-set basis, Steve Young was the best QB ever.

Finally, some sense on this thread.

[BroncoInferno]

Finally, some sense on this thread.

The argument is that the arch of their careers are similar, not that Jake is as good or better than Young. Reading comprehension. Try it sometime.

[Merlin]

Yardage gained vs yardage actuallly needed to win....(To avoid confusion I've subtracted penalty yardage off each teams total offensive production rather than break it down by defense, offense and special teams.)...The 100 yard change of direction INT by Champ alters the entire picture...To figure this, subtract 100 yards from the New England offense, since that's the distance they moved BACKWARDS on that play. That gives them effective positive yardage of only 228 yards for the game. Add that 100 yards to Denver's total since they moved FORWARD on the play...
As it has already been explained, the stat does exist, but a couple of corrections need to be made to your assumptions.

1. You are correct that ydg needs to be removed from NE, but you are not correct in then giving them to Denver's O. Denver's O already received that yardage due to its reduced terrain needed to cover (i.e. it had fewer accessible yds since it started at the 2 yd line).

2. You need to include penalty yds that went in favor of the O since that would have reduced the amount of yds to cover (e.g. PI gives a team yds, but it would be missed in your analysis).

Otherwise, nice read.

[Merlin]

The argument is that the arch of their careers are similar, not that Jake is as good or better than Young. Reading comprehension. Try it sometime.
Bears repeating

[texpat]

Bears repeating

NO the Bears aren't repeating, they haven't won since '85!

LOLLOLLOLLOL

[Merlin]

Another item that needs to be quantified in some manner is the actual TO. By turning over the ball, the team has in essence denie itself the opportunity to punt (which means yds) and maybe points. The latter would be easy to quantify (e.g. Pats lose 3 pts in the TO), but the losse in yds due to lack of punt is a little more complicated. Nevertheless, it is important to the addition (or subtraction) process.

PS cute retort Texpat

[Popps]

I could care less about this stuff, but I know some of you love to hear this crap so here it is...brazen dissrespect that's notworthy for the bluntness and the fact it's from a TV network announcer. Ex-Crackboy fullback Daryl Johnston, from FOX's junior varisty announcing team had this to say about the Broncos today on a Dallas radio station...I'm reproducing it as closely as possible exactly from memory so I have no link.



Does this settle the question of whether these network fools are "experts"?

I think it does. This dude has no clue.


Hey, we've still got some of our own fans on this board saying stuff like this. It's no surprise that a few non-Bronco fans would be, as well.

So people can evaluate talent, some can't.

[footstepsfrom#27]

My question to this is: WHO THE H*LL WAS THE QB THAT LET THE TEAM GET BEHIND IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Young, Aikman, Staubach, Bradshaw, Griese, Marino, etc. didn't have the number of opportunities to come from behind because they led their teams to leads in the first 3 quarters.

MHO
John Elway- 43 4th quarter come back wins (1st in NFL history), 2 Superbowl championships

Roger Staubach- 23 come from behind 4th quarter wins, earned the nickname "Captain Comeback", 2 Superbowl championships

Dan Marino-37 come from behind 4th quarter wins, 2nd to John Elway in NFL history.

Joe Montana- 31 career comeback wins in the 4th quarter, 4 Superbowl championships

Brett Favre- 30 career come from behind wins in the 4th quarter, 1 Superbowl championship

Total: 9 Superbowl championships were won by these quarterbacks known for their ability to come back in the 4th quarter and win the game

I have never understood why someone would be so proud of come from behind wins.
No kidding...don't say that out loud though...people will think you're not to bright. ::)

[footstepsfrom#27]

As it has already been explained, the stat does exist, but a couple of corrections need to be made to your assumptions.

You are correct that ydg needs to be removed from NE, but you are not correct in then giving them to Denver's O. Denver's O already received that yardage due to its reduced terrain needed to cover (i.e. it had fewer accessible yds since it started at the 2 yd line).
The point behind giving it to Denver's offense is that those 100 yards (actually I think it was 96) represents yardage they didn't have to gain on their own. In other words, the EFFECT is the same...the team gained the yardage, even though the offense didn't have to expend the effort to do so. Denver gained position on the field as the result of the play, so it has the same effect as if Denver's offense drove the ball 96 yards.
You need to include penalty yds that went in favor of the O since that would have reduced the amount of yds to cover (e.g. PI gives a team yds, but it would be missed in your analysis).
I did include penalty yards, but it's needlessly complicated to break it down that far, so as I stated previously, to avoid confusion I standardized this by simply subtracting the yardage totals from each teams offensive production. Some of these people have hard enough time grasping things as it is...:thumbsup:

[texpat]

John Elway- 43 4th quarter come back wins (1st in NFL history), 2 Superbowl championships

Roger Staubach- 23 come from behind 4th quarter wins, earned the nickname "Captain Comeback", 2 Superbowl championships

Dan Marino-37 come from behind 4th quarter wins, 2nd to John Elway in NFL history.

Joe Montana- 31 career comeback wins in the 4th quarter, 4 Superbowl championships

Brett Favre- 30 career come from behind wins in the 4th quarter, 1 Superbowl championship

Total: 9 Superbowl championships were won by these quarterbacks known for their ability to come back in the 4th quarter and win the game


No kidding...don't say that out loud though...people will think you're not to bright. ::)

Exactly, they didn't let their teams get behind as many times as Elway did, simple math.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Exactly, they didn't let their teams get behind as many times as Elway did, simple math.
You're not really this idiotic...right? It's an act meant to troll us with...right? Let me explain something to you perhaps you've never thought of. There are two sides to the ball in the NFL, offense and someting called "defense".

Bradshaw- "Steel Curtain" defense, possibly the best in NFL history...Steelers defense protected leads rather than lose them

Staubach- "Doomsday" defense-loaded with HOF players...one of the best ever...he still had to come back 21 times for wins in the 4th quarter

Marino- defense was not that good, hence more games where he had to come from behind

Elway- see Marino

The point, which obviously escapes you, is that the ability to lead your team back to victory in the late stages of the game is a quality highly sought after in NFL quarterbacks. If you truly don't understand this, there's not much point in talking because you're simply not able to process information well enough to get it.

[Merlin]

The point behind giving it to Denver's offense is that those 100 yards (actually I think it was 96) represents yardage they didn't have to gain on their own. In other words, the EFFECT is the same...
Exactly, so if you then give again to the O, then they are receiving it twice (once because to the reduced territory they need to cover, and again when you add it to the total ydg).

I did include penalty yards, but it's needlessly complicated to break it down that far, so as I stated previously, to avoid confusion I standardized this by simply subtracting the yardage totals from each teams offensive production. Some of these people have hard enough time grasping things as it is...:thumbsup:
Yes, but are you only subtracting yardage or are you also including the ydg gained by penalties? From the description above "I standardized this by simply subtracting yardage totals...", it seems you are only deducting the yds an offense incurs due to penalties, but you are not giving them the yds they gain due to penalties.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Exactly, so if you then give again to the O, then they are receiving it twice (once because to the reduced territory they need to cover, and again when you add it to the total ydg).

I did include penalty yards, but it's needlessly complicated to break it down
Yes, but are you only subtracting yardage or are you also including the ydg gained by penalties? From the description above "I standardized this by simply subtracting yardage totals...", it seems you are only deducting the yds an offense incurs due to penalties, but you are not giving them the yds they gain due to penalties.
The best way I can explain this is through the concept of the "swing", as in the 14 point swing that Denver benefitted from. On the Champ Baily INT, the defense gave up the yardage that got the Pats to the 3 yard line, but they gained it back in one play so it might as well have never happened in the first place. The offense would have had to drive that entire length of the field had the defense only produced a goal line stand. The TEAM (breaking it down to offense and defense is not really necessary IMO) is able to subtract the yardage yielded prior to that play as well as add the additional yardage they would have had to gain to score. In other words what would have been a 7 point deficit became a 7 point addition...a swing of 14 points. The net effect of the play was to eliminate yardage the defense surrendered and add yardage the offense would have had to gain without the INT and big return.

[texpat]

The point, which obviously escapes you, is that the ability to lead your team back to victory in the late stages of the game is a quality highly sought after in NFL quarterbacks. If you truly don't understand this, there's not much point in talking because you're simply not able to process information well enough to get it.

I prefer my quarterbacks to be able to lead the team during the 1st three quarters.

What special talent is it that allows a person to try harder, focus harder, or whatever you want to call it in the 4th quarter rather than the first 3.

If a team of 11 players can score at will when behind late, why wasn't the leader demanding that same effort the whole game?

[footstepsfrom#27]

Exactly, they didn't let their teams get behind as many times as Elway did, simple math.
http://www.patriots.com/team/index.cfm?ac=playerbio&bio=566

Brady has orchestrated 17 game-winning drives to break a tie or take the lead in the fourth quarter or overtime. Five of his game-winning efforts have come in the postseason, where he has played in nine games. Brady has led a game-winning drive in each of the Patriots’ three Super Bowl victories.

It seems that you need to spend time learning a bit more about your own team, specifically the best player on your team...rather than trolling the Mane nearly a week after your season is over. Brady already has 17 comebacks in 5 seasons as a starter. At this rate he's on pace to pass Elway if he plays the same number of seasons.

Game. Set. Match.:giggle: Thanks for playing.

[Merlin]

The best way I can explain this is through the concept of the "swing", as in the 14 point swing that Denver benefitted from.
The problem is that you are mixing two conceptually different methods of analysis. On the one hand, you are stating that 1 team has x yds available to gain in each game, and then you analyze on the basis of how many of those yds they actually gained. OTOH you are looking at how swings affect the opportunities for a team to gain points and therefore conclude that a team should get credit for that in offense. The problem is that those yds were NEVER part of the calculation when determining yds accessible to the O, so they are distorting your differential.

[Merlin]

At this rate he's on pace to pass Elway if he plays the same number of seasons.

Game. Set. Match.:giggle: Thanks for playing.
I found it really surprising that Pat fan would be so critical of 4th qtr success since NEs playoff existence has been based on comebacks. I guess they are a lousy team after all. Here I thought they were well coached and had a great QB. My Bad!

[jonny1]

Texpat = The Black Knight (Monty Python and the Holy Grail)

[footstepsfrom#27]

The problem is that you are mixing two conceptually different methods of analysis. On the one hand, you are stating that 1 team has x yds available to gain in each game, and then you analyze on the basis of how many of those yds they actually gained. OTOH you are looking at how swings affect the opportunities for a team to gain points and therefore conclude that a team should get credit for that in offense. The problem is that those yds were NEVER part of the calculation when determining yds accessible to the O, so they are distorting your differential.
I think where we're getting hung up here is on the concept of distinguishing between offense and defense. My point is that it doesn't really matter. The points scored count the same whether the offense gets them or they come from the defense. Defensive points merely make it easier for the offense. In the end the result is the same, whether you want to credit the offensive side of the ball or not. Swings are the biggest momentum killer in football. If you want to account for it more preciesely as a defensive credit I have no problem with it, but the end result is the same. The original point to all this is that offensive production is deceiving because it's a stat that really doesn't tell you anything by itself. If you can break that down further than I have...great. The bottom line is that you have to look at what goes on in field position and turnovers in order for offensive yards gained to have any real meaning. I'm pretty sure we agree on that.

[footstepsfrom#27]

I found it really surprising that Pat fan would be so critical of 4th qtr success since NEs playoff existence has been based on comebacks. I guess they are a lousy team after all. Here I thought they were well coached and had a great QB. My Bad!
You were wrong. Brady can't lead them in the 1st 3 quarters so he has to make up for it at the end. What a stiff.;D

[BoiseBluTurf]

Texpat = The Black Knight (Monty Python and the Holy Grail)


NONE SHALL PASS!

[footstepsfrom#27]

Texpat = The Black Knight (Monty Python and the Holy Grail)
I hate British humor...I think he's more like Tim Conway. LOL

[Bronx33]

texpat= But But But

[Steve Sewell]

let's try up until he came to the Broncos, starting in '03 he bucked the trend of throwing more ints then tds.

60 TD's, 34 INT's with the Broncos. 33-11 record with the Broncos. Yeah, he's the same old Jake.

Fvcking lazy media morons. Ever think it might have something to do with coaching, player improvement, and more overall team talent? I'm so sick of this. "Old Jake/New Jake" is brought up in just about every article about him.

Bottom line: He's been a proven winner and has been nothing short of spectacular since his arrival to Denver. In fact, only two QB's have a better winning percentage over the last 3 years, media darlings/gods Brady and Manning.

[Dutch]

TexPat also hasn't taken into consideration that John played the majority of his career with Dan "run the ball even if we can't" Reeves as coach. My Dad used to swear up a storm when Reeves would spend the first three and a half quarters of a game playing 3 and out or 6 and out football (run left, run right, run up the middle=9 yards & punt), then he would finally take the wraps off of John and we'd comeback & win the game.

[Dutch]

Come on texpat, no answer for that one? Thought not, you know Jack about Elway , Plummer, or the Broncos. Just rambling out yer A$$!

[texpat]

60 TD's, 34 INT's with the Broncos. 33-11 record with the Broncos. Yeah, he's the same old Jake.

Fvcking lazy media morons. Ever think it might have something to do with coaching, player improvement, and more overall team talent? I'm so sick of this. "Old Jake/New Jake" is brought up in just about every article about him.

Bottom line: He's been a proven winner and has been nothing short of spectacular since his arrival to Denver. In fact, only two QB's have a better winning percentage over the last 3 years, media darlings/gods Brady and Manning.

Spectacular enough to lead the league in INT's in '04, which is the same form he will bring this weekend.

[Dutch]

Nice quick shift there Brainwave. As for Plummer, he has done nothing but get better since he came into the NFL.

[texpat]

Nice quick shift there Brainwave. As for Plummer, he has done nothing but get better since he came into the NFL.

And yet, still not good enough to win the big game.

[Bronx33]

And yet, still not good enough to win the big game.

Can he play the game first before you open your piehole? or is looking like a fool a fulltime thing with you patty fans?

[texpat]

Can he play the game first before you open your piehole? or is looking like a fool a fulltime thing with you patty fans?

So, no one's allowed to have an opinion other than Jake's the Second Coming of Elway.

Isn't it boring to be surrounded by people who all have the same opinion?

[footstepsfrom#27]

Spectacular enough to lead the league in INT's in '04, which is the same form he will bring this weekend.
And yet in spite of that over the last 3 years he has 34 INT's while Tom Brady has 40...try again. Better yet tell me why comeback wins are overated and an indication of poor play in the first 3 quarters yet Brady is on pace to have more than any QB in history.

Shouldn't you be looking at draft prospects now?

[Bronx33]

So, no one's allowed to have an opinion other than Jake's the Second Coming of Elway.

Isn't it boring to be surrounded by people who all have the same opinion?


Who compared jake to elway? because there is no comparision FYI, now i want to introduce you to the year 2005-06 and sure you can have your opinion and i on the other hand can make fun of it. :approve:

[footstepsfrom#27]

I feel bad. It's like picking on a retarded kid who can't understand why you're laughing.

[Jetmeck]

Well, lets break this all down. Here are your drives from your last game:


Broncos Drive Chart
Start /Time /TimePoss/ Drive Began/ # of Plays /YardsGained /Result
11:41 2:20 DEN 26 3 8 Punt
05:27 2:53 DEN 36 5 19 Punt
01:23 5:40 DEN 37 11 60 Downs
08:15 2:05 DEN 44 4 26 Interception
03:48 1:07 DEN 38 3 8 Punt
01:51 0:09 NE 40 1 40 Touchdown
01:33 0:50 NE 39 4 7 Field Goal
15:00 1:39 DEN 22 3 5 Punt
07:49 3:10 DEN 20 6 16 Punt
00:47 0:04 NE 1 1 1 Touchdown
12:48 2:38 DEN 33 5 25 Punt
10:10 1:32 NE 15 3 15 Touchdown
08:05 4:45 DEN 23 8 61 Field Goal
02:56 2:56 DEN 39 5 19 End of Game

Some stats just paint a picture. For example, you scored three offensive touchdowns, all of which started inside NE territory and two off DEEP turnovers. You managed one long scoring drive that got you a FG late. I would submit that, not counting NE turnovers, you in fact DID NOT defeat NE's 3-4 defense the way most of you are saying. And lets face it, NE had a DE at MLB, and a WR at DB, among others. In other words, you did not face the real test. I submit that you will face that test come sunday. Don't assume that you can beat the Steelers 3-4, because they are healthy AND no one runs this D like the Steelers.


Let me break it down for in a simple way even someone like you might understand. We created all but one of those TO, period. If you haven't watched the entire game and have only seen highlights, STFU.
As far as 3-4 defenses, SD has one of the best with the best run defense in the league and guess what we beat them twice, moron !

[Jetmeck]

Not hating at all! But you can call it what you will..stats don't lie!! And I've never seen a stat catagory that lists "mojo" or "lung capacity above 5000 ft." Until that day comes, I'll take the ODDS.:thumbsup:


Maybe you will also take the odds that Big Ben keeps passing at the high level he did against Indy, not likely because he had a career type day against INDY.

[texpat]

Who compared jake to elway? because there is no comparision FYI, now i want to introduce you to the year 2005-06 and sure you can have your opinion and i on the other hand can make fun of it. :approve:

MAny on this thread dissed Johnston because he had a contrarian opinion on an NFL QB(which I think he know's a little more than any of the posters do.)
I agree with his view and then everyone starts comparing Jake to Young. I don't think that is a valid comparison until Jake overcomes his propensity of throwing INT's and wins a big game.

Until he proves otherwise, my opinion will stay the same.

Right now he's J.A.G.

[Bronx33]

MAny on this thread dissed Johnston because he had a contrarian opinion on an NFL QB(which I think he know's a little more than any of the posters do.)
I agree with his view and then everyone starts comparing Jake to Young. I don't think that is a valid comparison until Jake overcomes his propensity of throwing INT's and wins a big game.

Until he proves otherwise, my opinion will stay the same.

Right now he's J.A.G.


Hes one of the scmucks that have been wrong 17 out of 17 times, now tell me what he knows?

[texpat]

Hes one of the scmucks that have been wrong 17 out of 17 times, now tell me what he knows?

Please do share the 17 out of 17 times he's been wrong and about what.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

your avatar ought to be the other end of the Broncos mascot. it suits you better.

This should be your avatar:

http://img464.imageshack.us/img464/3981/smileybawl8nq.gif

[Florida_Bronco]

I don't think that is a valid comparison until Jake overcomes his propensity of throwing INT's and wins a big game.

Until he proves otherwise, my opinion will stay the same.

Right now he's J.A.G.

Dude, he threw what...229 passes this year without an interception?

[Bronx33]

Dude, he threw what...229 passes this year without an interception?

It's never any good or good enough plus when thats the only thing you can complain about they do like 5 year olds.

[Bronx33]

Please do share the 17 out of 17 times he's been wrong and about what.

PLUMMER, if your not going to read the thread don't look at me to catch you up.

[Option Coach]

Maybe you will also take the odds that Big Ben keeps passing at the high level he did against Indy, not likely because he had a career type day against INDY.


Guess those "odds" were pretty good, huh?

I have something for ya>>>>>>****CROW****


eat up and enjoy, TOOL.:wave:

[texpat]

MAny on this thread dissed Johnston because he had a contrarian opinion on an NFL QB(which I think he know's a little more than any of the posters do.)
I agree with his view and then everyone starts comparing Jake to Young. I don't think that is a valid comparison until Jake overcomes his propensity of throwing INT's and wins a big game.

Until he proves otherwise, my opinion will stay the same.

Right now he's J.A.G.

It was a pleasure being here to discuss this matter. It appears that Johnston knows a little more than the blind morons on this board. Put a little pressure on Jake and he melts down.

It was a great Sunday!

[texpat]

Can he play the game first before you open your piehole? or is looking like a fool a fulltime thing with you patty fans?

It's been played and I stand by my opinion.

Jake will never win a big game!

[texpat]

I feel bad. It's like picking on a retarded kid who can't understand why you're laughing.

I feel so bad you put all your faith in Jake.

But as Johnston said, he will choke under pressure, he has his entire career, and always will.

I don't guess Canton needs to dust off a spot next to Young.

LOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOOLL

[footstepsfrom#27]

I feel so bad you put all your faith in Jake.

But as Johnston said, he will choke under pressure, he has his entire career, and always will.

I don't guess Canton needs to dust off a spot next to Young.

LOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOOLL
Dumb*** did you even watch the game? Obviously not. Get outta here and go back to your Patsie board so you can slobber over Teddy Kennedy and Tom Brady. BTW...Young lost 2 conference championship games before winning the Superbowl...learn something.

So much for your dynasty.;D

[texpat]

Dumb*** did you even watch the game? Obviously not. Get outta here and go back to your Patsie board so you can slobber over Teddy Kennedy and Tom Brady. BTW...Young lost 2 conference championship games before winning the Superbowl...learn something.

So much for your dynasty.;D

Yes I watched the game.

Plummer floated a couple INT's, lost a fumble he should have and one he shouldn't have.

A Young, or Elway, or Aikman, or Montana, or Bradshaw, or Marino, would have never thrown that week a** pass right before the half.

PURE MELTDOWN!!!!!!

[footstepsfrom#27]

Yes I watched the game.

Plummer floated a couple INT's, lost a fumble he should have and one he shouldn't have.

A Young, or Elway, or Aikman, or Montana, or Bradshaw, or Marino, would have never thrown that week a** pass right before the half.

PURE MELTDOWN!!!!!!
Bradshaw threw a grand total of TWO more TD's than INT's in his career, and tossed a pick every 18.5 passes...a HORRIBLE ratio that is far worse than Jake had even when he played at Arizona. He threw over 20 picks 5 times and 19 in another season. Young lost 2 NFC title games before the Superbowl and never got back again, losing in the playoffs 4 out of 7 times after that.

Facts...why bother?

[texpat]

Bradshaw threw a grand total of TWO more TD's than INT's in his career, and tossed a pick every 18.5 passes...a HORRIBLE ratio that is far worse than Jake had even when he played at Arizona. He threw over 20 picks 5 times and 19 in another season. Young lost 2 NFC title games before the Superbowl and never got back again, losing in the playoffs 4 out of 7 times after that.

Facts...why bother?

And yet they win the big ones.

BTW

How do you like paying a sales tax so the Boys can build a stadium in your backyard???

[footstepsfrom#27]

And yet they win the big ones.

BTW

How do you like paying a sales tax so the Boys can build a stadium in your backyard???
1) Young didn't win the big game by himself numbskull. A few guys named Rice, Taylor, Rathman, Norton, Sanders, Bryant Young, and Stubblefield...to mention a few... had something to do with it also. 2) Young didn't get to the Superbowl until his 4th season in SF. How long has Jake played here? Oh yea..3 years.

I didn't pay a dime for the stadium. It all comes from hotels, car rentals, and other stuff out of towners fork up when they come here to spend their hard earned money taking their kids to Six Flags. I could care less.

Now scram. I'm done with you.

[Bronx33]

Yes I watched the game.

Plummer floated a couple INT's, lost a fumble he should have and one he shouldn't have.

A Young, or Elway, or Aikman, or Montana, or Bradshaw, or Marino, would have never thrown that week a** pass right before the half.

PURE MELTDOWN!!!!!!

Fair enough, but i will say the patsies had a turnover meltdown a complete team effort i might say and a Young, or Elway, or Aikman, or Montana, or Bradshaw well Bradshaw would have thrown the pick but Marino, would have never thrown that weak a** pass that champ picked off and ran back 99 yards. Now run along and rub one out on your brady poster and call it a night.

[texpat]

1) Young didn't win the big game by himself numbskull. A few guys named Rice, Taylor, Rathman, Norton, Sanders, Bryant Young, and Stubblefield...to mention a few... had something to do with it also. 2) Young didn't get to the Superbowl until his 4th season in SF. How long has Jake played here? Oh yea..3 years.

I didn't pay a dime for the stadium. It all comes from hotels, car rentals, and other stuff out of towners fork up when they come here to spend their hard earned money taking their kids to Six Flags. I could care less.

Now scram. I'm done with you.

Footinmouth#27times:

You didn't pay a dime as long as you never bought anything in the city of Arlington.

But since you have probably spent money there, you are paying a 1/2 cent sales tax on taxable items

(http://www.ci.arlington.tx.us/cowboys/pdf/ArlingtonU_WRFP111804.pdf)
.
But as blind as you are in other areas, I wouldn't expect you to be aware.

So, once again proving you ignorant, I will leave you and others to discuss all the shortcomings of your donkey show.

[Rulon Velvet Jones]

I lived in Arlington when the tax came down (live in FTW now - just south of DFW Airport, but technically it's FTW). Aaaanyway, those that live in the area know that Arlington is sprawled out somewhat awkwardly. If you don't want to shop in Arlington-proper, then you head a half mile East or West and hit up Pantego or Dalworthington Gardens.

Wait a minute - why the hell are you trying to pull up a sales tax? Another weakass Pats fan. Head over to patsfans.com so you can suck each other off while claiming to be the best team in the AFC and how you would have steamrolled Pitt.

[texpat]

I lived in Arlington when the tax came down (live in FTW now - just south of DFW Airport, but technically it's FTW). Aaaanyway, those that live in the area know that Arlington is sprawled out somewhat awkwardly. If you don't want to shop in Arlington-proper, then you head a half mile East or West and hit up Pantego or Dalworthington Gardens.

Wait a minute - why the hell are you trying to pull up a sales tax? Another weakass Pats fan. Head over to patsfans.com so you can suck each other off while claiming to be the best team in the AFC and how you would have steamrolled Pitt.

For a minute I thought you might be a mature adult.

I am very aware of how Arlington is sprawled out, but willing to bet that footsteps spend some $$$ in Arlington if he lives there.

If you review my posts, you will see I'm a Cowboy fan first, Pats second, due to knowing some in the organization. Have never sucked anyone off, but you seem to know alot about it. With that said, the Pats have been the best in the AFC for a while. Nothing's forever,but it has been an enjoyable ride.

I know about mediocre QB's (Carter, Testaverde, & maybe Bledsoe) but will never understand a fan that blindly supports a player like Jake who continually throws the bad int at the wrong time just because he wears the jersey.

[Rulon Velvet Jones]

"If you review my posts, you will see I'm a Cowboy fan first, Pats second, due to knowing some in the organization."

Oh, so now we're resorting to bragging? $100 says I'm closer to more NFL players than you are.

You're beginning to be more annoying than Chiefs fans.

[texpat]

"If you review my posts, you will see I'm a Cowboy fan first, Pats second, due to knowing some in the organization."

Oh, so now we're resorting to bragging? $100 says I'm closer to more NFL players than you are.

You're beginning to be more annoying than Chiefs fans.

No brag just fact. I didn't say more than you, nor do I care how many you know, I just stated my reason for liking the Pats.

Now, shut up, pay your tax in Arlington, and get a new stadium for my 'Boys.

[Rulon Velvet Jones]

And meanwhile you can still attend Cows games for the next 3 years and pay all the new little "fees" that have been added.

[texpat]

And meanwhile you can still attend Cows games for the next 3 years and pay all the new little "fees" that have been added.

Once again, you are ASSUming.

I don't go to the games because Texas Stadium is a dump. Stay at home and watch on TV. But I will go to Arlington sometime to see games and let you pay for it. In fact will probably go to a SB played there in future. Probably will be the Pats or Boys there, certainly won't be the Broncs.

[Rulon Velvet Jones]

You're so off base, it's unbelievable. Now you're not even making sense. "And let you pay for it". Hey, dickhead, I DON'T LIVE IN ARLINGTON.

Some fan you are - not even going to see your team play in person.

[azbroncfan]

Once again, you are ASSUming.

I don't go to the games because Texas Stadium is a dump. Stay at home and watch on TV. But I will go to Arlington sometime to see games and let you pay for it. In fact will probably go to a SB played there in future. Probably will be the Pats or Boys there, certainly won't be the Broncs.
Just wait as soon as Parcells hangs it up the boys will be in cap hell.

[texpat]

You're so off base, it's unbelievable. Now you're not even making sense. "And let you pay for it". Hey, dickhead, I DON'T LIVE IN ARLINGTON.

Some fan you are - not even going to see your team play in person.

No, you live in that little stretch of FTW, just south of DFW, and I'm willing to bet you travel down 360 a little bit and spend some of your $ in Arlington.

I have never seen that watching your team in person is a prerequisite to being a fan. So, you listing your home in Dallas, I doubt you see your Broncs in person, so I guess your not a REAL fan.

[texpat]

Just wait as soon as Parcells hangs it up the boys will be in cap hell.

Jerry is quite capable of screwing things up on his own. TYVM. LOL

But we still have 5 SB's and plenty of championships to be proud of!

[Rulon Velvet Jones]

The loser's lament. Counting rings.

Tell us how many the Packers have and what the 49ers used to be.

[texpat]

The loser's lament. Counting rings.

Tell us how many the Packers have and what the 49ers used to be.

You know all about the loser's, don't ya?


7 teams have more SB's than the Bronc's, 2 the same, looks like y'all are middle of the roaders.

Get a QB who can lead and maybe you can get back. You won't do it with Jake.

[Bronx33]

You know all about the loser's, don't ya?


7 teams have more SB's than the Bronc's, 2 the same, looks like y'all are middle of the roaders.

Get a QB who can lead and maybe you can get back. You won't do it with Jake.



Who really gives a ****! you arrogant patty fans are something else! ohhhhh and congrats on becoming a football fan in 2001.

[texpat]

Who really gives a ****! you arrogant patty fans are something else! ohhhhh and congrats on becoming a football fan in 2001.

You can't attack the message, so attack the messenger!

If you have read any of my posts you would know I have been a Cowboys fan since the mid 60's when I moved to Dallas with my family from Atlanta as a child.

I have been a Pats fan since I am connected to someone in the organization.
Based on your logic, none of Jakes friends or relatives can be Bronco fans since they didn't like the Bronco's prior to Jake becoming one.

What a dumba** position to take.

[Bronx33]

You can't attack the message, so attack the messenger!

If you have read any of my posts you would know I have been a Cowboys fan since the mid 60's when I moved to Dallas with my family from Atlanta as a child.

I have been a Pats fan since I am connected to someone in the organization.
Based on your logic, none of Jakes friends or relatives can be Bronco fans since they didn't like the Bronco's prior to Jake becoming one.

What a dumba** position to take.


Taking the position of an arrogant pats fan was a stroke of genius, then picking the name texpat was another stroke of genius then claiming to be a plowboys fan is just stupid.

[texpat]

Taking the position of an arrogant pats fan was a stroke of genius, then picking the name texpat was another stroke of genius then claiming to be a plowboys fan is just stupid.

Why is that??

Don't you remember Jan 1978????

[Rulon Velvet Jones]

Texpat - buy a ****ing calendar.

It's January 2006.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Footinmouth#27times:

You didn't pay a dime as long as you never bought anything in the city of Arlington.

But since you have probably spent money there, you are paying a 1/2 cent sales tax on taxable items

(http://www.ci.arlington.tx.us/cowboys/pdf/ArlingtonU_WRFP111804.pdf)
.
But as blind as you are in other areas, I wouldn't expect you to be aware.

So, once again proving you ignorant, I will leave you and others to discuss all the shortcomings of your donkey show.
Only a complete blockhead would 1) care, or 2) argue about where somebody else shops. You must have a pathetic life. I live 50 feet inside the Arlington line, grocery shop in Dallas, and buy gas in Grand Prairie.

Wait...I think I buy a newspaper in Arlington once in a while and last week I got a Cappucino from the QT off Lamar on my way to pick up my kids.

I'm devastated.

[texpat]

Only a complete blockhead would 1) care, or 2) argue about where somebody else shops. You must have a pathetic life. I live 50 feet inside the Arlington line, grocery shop in Dallas, and buy gas in Grand Prairie.

Wait...I think I buy a newspaper in Arlington once in a while and last week I got a Cappucino from the QT off Lamar on my way to pick up my kids.

I'm devastated.

This is what you said:

"I didn't pay a dime for the stadium. It all comes from hotels, car rentals, and other stuff out of towners fork up when they come here to spend their hard earned money taking their kids to Six Flags. I could care less."

You brought it up and proved:
A) Your'e a liar, or
B) Your'e a dumba**

If you don't want something discussed, it would be best not to bring it up in conversation.

[texpat]

Texpat - buy a ****ing calendar.

It's January 2006.

I checked it and my teams have won 6 of the last 13 years SB's.

Yep, you got me in 2006.

My teams are 1W - 3L and yours is 1W - 1L.

But both mine have QB's that can win.

[Rulon Velvet Jones]

You own 2 NFL teams?

I thought you were a cheap bitch that likes to make a big deal over paying a .05 sales tax?

[texpat]

You own 2 NFL teams?

I thought you were a cheap b**** that likes to make a big deal over paying a .05 sales tax?

No, just laughing at idiots that don't even know they are putting $$$$$$$ into Jerry's pockets.

[Rulon Velvet Jones]

In the long run - who will end up paying more? Those that pay the tax in Arlington over the next 3 years or someone like you that will go to all the games, pay for tickets, parking, souvenirs and concessions?

The answer is the customer, not the taxpayer.

[texpat]

Very true Rulon,

But that's a choice I make, going to games, etc.

the tax hits people when they shop in Arlington whether they love, hate, or don't even know who the 'Boys are.

Have a great day!

[texpat]

Just a little reminder and what D Johnston thinks about Plummer,

and Jake continues to stink it up, lol..

[Rock Chalk]

texpat, Ihave been told that I am turning a new leaf lately. That my behavior is more mellow, laid back, and I have calmed down.

Well, thank you for helping me to get bck to who I am.

You are a lousy piece of **** who has no ****ing room to talk. Why dont you just shoot yourself in the ****ing face and make the world a better place because you aren't worth the oxygen that you ****ing waste. Wht kind of ****ing total retard comes to a site and digs up a year old post AFTER the fact knowing he is a fairweather fan of two ****ing teams, one which BARELY beat a ****ty buffalo team and the other who completely ****ing blew it against Jacksonville of all teams?

There are some sorry ****ing people in this world, and you sir are amongst them.

[SoonerBronco]

texpat, Ihave been told that I am turning a new leaf lately. That my behavior is more mellow, laid back, and I have calmed down.

Well, thank you for helping me to get bck to who I am.

You are a lousy piece of **** who has no ****ing room to talk. Why dont you just shoot yourself in the ****ing face and make the world a better place because you aren't worth the oxygen that you ****ing waste. Wht kind of ****ing total retard comes to a site and digs up a year old post AFTER the fact knowing he is a fairweather fan of two ****ing teams, one which BARELY beat a ****ty buffalo team and the other who completely ****ing blew it against Jacksonville of all teams?

There are some sorry ****ing people in this world, and you sir are amongst them.


Texpat=ghey

[watermock]

Not hating at all! But you can call it what you will..stats don't lie!! And I've never seen a stat catagory that lists "mojo" or "lung capacity above 5000 ft." Until that day comes, I'll take the ODDS.:thumbsup:

You and Bob need to hook up.

[watermock]

texpat, Ihave been told that I am turning a new leaf lately. That my behavior is more mellow, laid back, and I have calmed down.

Well, thank you for helping me to get bck to who I am.

You are a lousy piece of **** who has no ****ing room to talk. Why dont you just shoot yourself in the ****ing face and make the world a better place because you aren't worth the oxygen that you ****ing waste. Wht kind of ****ing total retard comes to a site and digs up a year old post AFTER the fact knowing he is a fairweather fan of two ****ing teams, one which BARELY beat a ****ty buffalo team and the other who completely ****ing blew it against Jacksonville of all teams?

There are some sorry ****ing people in this world, and you sir are amongst them.

We are all very pleased with your newfound gentleman's manners Alec.

[JCMElway]

Wow. Hey Alec, no need to cover up. Tell us how you really feel.

[bronco militia]

lmao at this thread.....Johnson was right

and this thread is appropriate for yestrdays game...

[texpat]

texpat, Ihave been told that I am turning a new leaf lately. That my behavior is more mellow, laid back, and I have calmed down.

Well, thank you for helping me to get bck to who I am.

You are a lousy piece of **** who has no ****ing room to talk. Why dont you just shoot yourself in the ****ing face and make the world a better place because you aren't worth the oxygen that you ****ing waste. Wht kind of ****ing total retard comes to a site and digs up a year old post AFTER the fact knowing he is a fairweather fan of two ****ing teams, one which BARELY beat a ****ty buffalo team and the other who completely ****ing blew it against Jacksonville of all teams?

There are some sorry ****ing people in this world, and you sir are amongst them.


Alec, so glad to greet you on this fine Monday morning. No worries here losing to Jax or a close one against the Bills, just a pleasure knowing that whatever team puts Jake at QB, will never win the big one, which is what DJ and any reasonable NFL fan could realize.

[texpat]

Texpat=ghey

Hey, soonerbronco, did you ever work at that dealership with Bomar?????

[Rulon Velvet Jones]

Dude, who the hell are you? Just a guy that likes to loom and brag when one of his four favorite teams win and the Broncos lose? I really don't get your schtick.

[SoonerBronco]

Hey, soonerbronco, did you ever work at that dealership with Bomar?????

Did you ever smoke weed with Romance Taylor and Cedric Benson...Tough loss this weekend. Really, it saddens my heart.

[texpat]

Did you ever smoke weed with Romance Taylor and Cedric Benson...Tough loss this weekend. Really, it saddens my heart.

Wrong team, try again.

[texpat]

Dude, who the hell are you? Just a guy that likes to loom and brag when one of his four favorite teams win and the Broncos lose? I really don't get your schtick.


Just having fun with all you guys who put Jake up with Brady, Manning, McNabb, Montana, Unitas, Starr, Aikman, Young........during the playoffs last season.

Every time a update for Rams/Broncs came up yesterday, I was looking for some great play, and all I got was Plummer screw-ups, lol lol lol lol

[texpat]

This weekend? I think the previous three years and 51 games outta carry a bit of weight too...don't ya think?

Plummer=Steve Young...horrible start in a horrible situation to go with a resurected career at age 30. Give him his due.

To all you who defended Plummer in this thread..

AREN'T YOU ALL GLAD HE"S GONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

HE NEVER WON ANY GAME OF ANY SIGNIFICANCE!!!!!!!

[SoonerBronco]

To all you who defended Plummer in this thread..

AREN'T YOU ALL GLAD HE"S GONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

HE NEVER WON ANY GAME OF ANY SIGNIFICANCE!!!!!!!

Obsess much???LOL

[texpat]

Obsess much???LOL

How'd those payments to Bomar work out??????????


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA

[Master___Pain]

To all you who defended Plummer in this thread..

AREN'T YOU ALL GLAD HE"S GONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

HE NEVER WON ANY GAME OF ANY SIGNIFICANCE!!!!!!!

You know what I'm glad about.... that a thread that has been dormant for 6 months can be resurrected for this post. Yay for you tex, well done.

[SoonerBronco]

How'd those payments to Bomar work out??????????


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA


Someone please lock this thread or move it to the butt. It's pretty sad that is just a tool for texpat to get his jollies....