Time to tell the real truth about Shanahan's record without Elway

[footstepsfrom#27]

Well it's that time again...time for all the trolls who enter here to spout off with "Shanahan's never won a Superbowl without Elway". Yes...there are other idiotic rants as well but this seems to be the main one whenever we dare to bring up his sparkling record. Second to this is the "no playoff wins without Elway"...a ridiculous fact that forgets a huge rebuilding job that needed to replace not only Elway, but HOF caliber players in Terrell Davis, Shannon Sharpe, Gary Zimmerman and Steve Atwater, plus the fact that all 3 playoff losses have come on the road, one to the eventual Superbowl champion Baltimore Ravens. So with this in mind I decided to look back in NFL history to ask a simiple question...

How many NFL coaches won Superbowls or NFL championships with the same team and different quarterbacks in the modern era?

We'll call the modern era everything from 1950 onward...no leather helmets or single wing or Canton Bulldogs or Oorang Indians considered here...fair enough?

Answer...three. Only Weeb Ewbank, Joe Gibbs and George Siefert among Superbowl/NFL championship winning coaches have won with more than one quarterback. Siefert was blessed with Joe Montana and Steve Young...two HOF quarterbacks. Ewbank won two NFL titles with Johnny Unitas and a Superbowl with Joe Namath...two more HOF QB's...though he gets an asterisk since he won with two different teams, not one. Gibbs won with 3 different guys, none of them spectacular...a truly outstanding achievement that stands alone in the modern era. A look at what some of the best coaches in NFL history did without their superstar quarterbacks...

1. Paul Brown won 3 NFL championships and finished 2nd 4 times. He won all his titles with Otto Graham and went to 3 of the 4 title games he lost with Graham as well...but never won a title without Graham.

2. Tom Landry coached 29 years and won 2 Superbowls with Roger Stauback and failed with Don Merideth (2 NFL championship game losses), Craig Morton (1 Superbowl loss) and Danny White (3 losses in NFC conference championship games).

3. Vince Lombardi coached 9 years and won 2 Superbowls and 3 NFL championships...all with Bart Starr.

4. Don Shula coached 26 years with the Dolphins and went to 3 Superbowls with Bob Griese, winning 2 and losing 1...and also failing with David Woodley and Dan Marino in two other Superbowls. He also coached an additional 7 years with the Colts and failed twice with the legendary Johnny Unitas and Earl Morrall, losing a Superbowl with Morall and an NFL championship game with Unitas.

5. Bill Walsh won 3 Superbowls in 10 years...all with Joe Montana.

6. Chuck Noll won 4 Superbowls with Terry Bradshaw, and coached 9 more years after Bradshaw left without winning another title while going 2-4 in the playoffs.

7. Hank Stram won an NFL championship and went to 2 Superbowls, winning 1 and losing 1...all with Len Dawson. Stram retired the year before Dawson finally lost his starting job and he also retired.

8. John Madden won a Superbowl for the Raiders with Ken Stabler and Tom Flores won 2 with Jim Plunkett but neither won a title with anyone else.

9. Jimmy Johnson won all 3 of his Superbowls with Troy Aikman and failed with Marino in Miami.

10. The Patriots Bill Belichick failed with Drew Bledsoe before finding Tom Brady and has won all 3 of his Superbowls with him.

11. Bill Parcells won 2 Superbowls with Phil Simms but failed with both Drew Bledsoe and Vinny Testeverde in New England and New York.

12. Mike Shanahan has 2 Superbowl titles with Elway, and if he fails to win another Superbowl he will join Paul Brown, Vince Lombardi, Don Shula, Tom Landry, Chuck Noll, Hank Stram, Bill Walsh, John Madden, Tom Flores, Jimmy Johnson, Bill Parcells, Bill Belichick and a few other guys who won titles with a great QB and didn't with anyone else.

If Shanahan does win another Superbowl title without Elway he'll join only 3 coaches in NFL history to achieve that feat...and the names Unitas, Namath, Montana and Young were the ones they used to do it.

Let the Trolls chew on that next time you hear it.

[Jason in LA]

That's some good research there.

Shanny has won 33 games over the past three years. 42 games over the past 4 years. People act like the Broncos haven't been winning. Like it was stated above, all three playoff losses were on the road. This year they are at home, so it's time to shut people up about the Broncos not winning without Elway.

Note- Parcells won the second Super Bowl without Simms. Simms got hurt at mid season and Hostetler was the QB. Didn't Griese get hurt in '73, and the backup was the QB in the Super Bowl?

[Rock Chalk]

Belichik has never won a playoff game without Brady.

See how easy being a journalist is?

[footstepsfrom#27]

That's some good research there.

Shanny has won 33 games over the past three years. 42 games over the past 4 years. People act like the Broncos haven't been winning. Like it was stated above, all three playoff losses were on the road. This year they are at home, so it's time to shut people up about the Broncos not winning without Elway.

Note- Parcells won the second Super Bowl without Simms. Simms got hurt at mid season and Hostetler was the QB. Didn't Griese get hurt in '73, and the backup was the QB in the Super Bowl?
I'm talking about the starting QB's here.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Joe Gibbs is the only coach in the modern era to win titles with different QB's who were not HOF quarterbacks...so Shanahan must suck right? LOL

[Jesterhole]

I don't see how we won't win the Super Bowl, so thankfully all this talk will go away soon. Good research however...

[watermock]

So what. if Billichick hasn't won anyting without Brady
1

Bottom line is we get to play them both this week.

[redrage]

So basically you are cementing the argument....

Elway was more responsible for the Super Bowl wins than Shanahan was. Shanahan (or nearly every coach it seems) can't do it without a top QB at the helm. Big shock. Like your chances this year?

[footstepsfrom#27]

So basically you are cementing the argument....

Elway was more responsible for the Super Bowl wins than Shanahan was. Shanahan (or nearly every coach it seems) can't do it without a top QB at the helm. Big shock. Like your chances this year?
Better than yours. Did you forget Dilfer and Brad Johnson?

Beat it troll.

[redrage]

Better than yours. Did you forget Dilfer and Brad Johnson?

Beat it troll.
No. In fact I think it was more impressive that Gruden and Billick won with them than Shanahan with Elway. Don't you think?

Hell, Reeves made it to 3 Super Bowls with Elway, then turned around and made it to another with Chris Chandler.

Tell me how your analysis negates the 'Shanahan hasn't won without Elway' argument? Maybe you should tell The Mastermind he should get another HOF QB if he wants to make it to the big dance. He may have overlooked that.:thumbsup:

[footstepsfrom#27]

No. In fact I think it was more impressive that Gruden and Billick won with them than Shanahan with Elway. Don't you think?

Hell, Reeves made it to 3 Super Bowls with Elway, then turned around and made it to another with Chris Chandler.

Tell me how your analysis negates the 'Shanahan hasn't won without Elway' argument? Maybe you should tell The Mastermind he should get another HOF QB if he wants to make it to the big dance. He may have overlooked that.Hilarious!
Only a complete moron can't see the obvious...congradulations for confirming it.

[redrage]

Only a complete moron can't see the obvious...congradulations for confirming it.
OK, I'm a moron. What's the obvious? That Shanahan hasn't won anything without Elway and that doesn't make him special?

Or was it something else? Tell me. I'm too dense to figure it out.

[footstepsfrom#27]

OK, I'm a moron. What's the obvious? That Shanahan hasn't won anything without Elway and that doesn't make him special?

Or was it something else? Tell me. I'm too dense to figure it out.
I agree...you are dense. You Chief fans use this to suggest it's a slam on Shanahan that he's only won with Elway (never mind the reverse is also true). Do you think Brown, Lombardi, Stram, Shula, Landry, Noll, etc...are crappy coaches also? Or is it just Shanahan? The greatest of all time are on that list...along with Shanahan.

Winning a title without a great QB is possible. Winning more than one apparently isn't. Dilfer and Johnson haven't repeated...have they?

Now go away.

[Mediator12]

No. In fact I think it was more impressive that Gruden and Billick won with them than Shanahan with Elway. Don't you think?

Hell, Reeves made it to 3 Super Bowls with Elway, then turned around and made it to another with Chris Chandler.

Tell me how your analysis negates the 'Shanahan hasn't won without Elway' argument? Maybe you should tell The Mastermind he should get another HOF QB if he wants to make it to the big dance. He may have overlooked that.

Actually, Chief fan would forget the critical element of defenses winning those championships more than Dilfer or Johnson. There is more than one way to skin a cat, and this defense and offense are very balanced. He does not have a HOF QB but the defense has been excellent at keeping points off the board.

The QB thing is way overrated too IMHO. Elway had three chances before Shanahan and Davis. The whole Elway, Shanahan, and Davis trio was the reason for those SB victories. Davis was MVP in the first one last I checked.

[redrage]

I agree...you are dense. You Chief fans use this to suggest it's a slam on Shanahan that he's only won with Elway (never mind the reverse is also true). Do you think Brown, Lombardi, Stram, Shula, Landry, Noll, etc...are crappy coaches also? Or is it just Shanahan? The greatest of all time are on that list...along with Shanahan.

Winning a title without a great QB is possible. Winning more than one apparently isn't. Dilfer and Johnson haven't repeated...have they?

Now go away.
Elway certainly won playoff games without Shanahan. In fact, he won them by himself. Now remind me of Mikey's playoff record w/o Elway?

I'm not saying Shanahan isn't good or even great coach, but it appears that the acclaim he has gotten is because of a great player.

I have doubted whether or not he can win w/o Elway. You have shown historical evidence to support my conclusion.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Elway certainly won playoff games without Shanahan. In fact, he won them by himself. Now remind me of Mikey's playoff record w/o Elway?

I'm not saying Shanahan isn't good or even great coach, but it appears that the acclaim he has gotten is because of a great player.

I have doubted whether or not he can win w/o Elway. You have shown historical evidence to support my conclusion.
Look, I realize you're a Chiefs fan so I don't expect you to have to much upstairs but come on...we have to maintain some minimal level of intelligence on this board...OK?

I said this is about which coaches WON an NFL championship or WON a Superbowl using more than one quarterback...and you come back with "Elway won playoff games without Shanahan". The point is...THE GREATEST COACHES IN NFL HISTORY WON CHAMPIONSHIPS WITH ONLY ONE QUARTERBACK...and that includes Shanahan. Of course Shanahan still has time to join Gibbs as well...

Take Lombardi for example...you know...the guy the trophy is named for? Ring a bell? I know you've never actually SEEN one in KC but think back to when your grandpa used to tell you stories about that dude...or even Hank Stram...I'm sure he told you about him. He used to coach the Chiefs about 40 years ago so you probably read about him in your history books...these guys all won with only one QB...all except 3 of them, and only Gibbs didn't have HOF QB's to turn his team over to.

I know your kidding. You're not really this stupid. Are you???? It's a joke...right?

[SDChiefsfan]

....

If Shanahan does win another Superbowl title without Elway he'll join only 3 coaches in NFL history to achieve that feat...and the names Unitas, Namath, Montana and Young were the ones they used to do it.

Let the Trolls chew on that next time you hear it.

So, you think Plummer is the equivlent to Namath and Young? And you are being serious?

:~ohyah!:



:spit:




rofl

[footstepsfrom#27]

So, you think Plummer is the equivlent to Namath and Young? And you are being serious?

:~ohyah!:



:spit:




rofl
Did I say that dipwad? You must have a reading comprehension problem.

[SDChiefsfan]

Did I say that dipwad? You must have a reading comprehension problem.

That's your clear implication....unless you are mentally challenged.

[Rausch]

If Parcells didn't have ADD he might have accomplished the same...

[footstepsfrom#27]

That's your clear implication....unless you are mentally challenged.
It seems it's you who is missing a few IQ points. The whole point is that your dissrespect for Shanahan for not winning a title without Elway must, by neccessity...also extend to Brown, Lombardi, Landry, Shula, Noll...etc...

Nobody said Jack about Jake. The entire point is that the with the exception of Gibbs, this feat has only been accomplished by coaches with HOF QB's. So where do you get off knocking Shanahan for not doing something the greatest of all time also haven't done?

They really need to fix the KC school system.

[Spider]

Belichik has never won a playoff game without Brady.

See how easy being a journalist is?
LOL ......

[DarkHorse30]

a pretty good thread except for the :troll: 's

Gibbs has the best resume, but people forget how much Jack Kent Cooke spent on the redskins. No salcap meant any owner could build a dynasty if they had the smarts, the money, and a pretty good HC.

The funny thing about the Elway fans is that they used to bash him for NOT getting SB wins during the Reeves years. So doesn't Shanahan get any credit for building a team that got Elway to the big show twice....and win it both times? Denver was supposed to get killed by Green Bay.....yet Shanahan had a gameplan that confused them and made Holmgren look lost.

An NFL HC has not won a SB after a HOF QB has retired.....ever.....yet. So the doubters can keep crying when they watch Denver keep getting to the playoffs AS they rebuild their team.....thanks to Shanahan. Read it and weep, chiefs.

[Spider]

So, you think Plummer is the equivlent to Namath and Young? And you are being serious?

:~ohyah!:



:spit:




rofl
:kiddingme .....talk about a reach ......

[shaftedelic]

Belichik has never won a playoff game without Brady.

See how easy being a journalist is?

It was Drew that really won the first Playoff game against the Steelers. Brady wasn't doing crap, and Drew ended up driving in the winning score.

[redrage]

Fine. I'll concede Shanahan is a very good coach and quite possibly HOF material one day.

But the whole 'Shanahan hasn't won anything without Elway' (and likely won't) argument is SUPPORTED historically by your title post!!! You've pointed out that other great coaches haven't done it either.

This doesn't demean him. It just means that he likely won't win consistently without a top-notch HOF like QB. BIG SURPRISE!!!! Turns out that hardley anyone does.

Sure, Gruden, Billick and Ditka winning with guys like Johnson, Dilfer and McMahon, respectively, are exceptions but usually because of fantastic, dominating defenses.

Denver's defense is top notch. One of the best this year. But on par with those championship defenses? Honestly?

So it would seem as if it is entirely likely that Shanhan likely won't win the Super Bowl again until he gets a dominate QB.

[redrage]

It was Drew that really won the first Playoff game against the Steelers. Brady wasn't doing crap, and Drew ended up driving in the winning score.
Not true. Brady won the playoff game vs the Raiders the week before and then got hurt early in the Steeler game.

[Jesus Quintana]

Belichik has never won a playoff game without Brady.

See how easy being a journalist is?
As Cleveland Browns coach Belichick beat new England back in the 94/95 season. Leroy Hoard anyone?

He is 11-1 in the playoffs
10-0 with Brady.
1-1 with Vinny Testeverde

That said, Shanahan is a great coach no doubt.

[Jesus Quintana]

10. The Patriots Bill Belichick failed with Drew Bledsoe before finding Tom Brady and has won all 3 of his Superbowls with him.

11. Bill Parcells won 2 Superbowls with Phil Simms but failed with both Drew Bledsoe and Vinny Testeverde in New England and New York.



About these 2 'facts". Belichik only had Bledsoe as his QB for his first year here in 2000. It was a bad year, but a failure? He did win an AFC title game with Bledsoe playing most of the game after Brady was injured.

And Parcells won his 2nd SuperBowl with Jeff Hostettler. Not Phil Simms.

[Garcia Bronco]

Technically...BP won two Super Bowls with two different QB's....so did Shula...with Morall and Griese in 72. Hostetler and Simms for BP in 91. And Jimmy Johnson only won two SB's. Switzer won the third.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Actually, it isn't incorrect to say Shanahan hasn't done much without Elway. This year is his chance to put that all behind him.

[Garcia Bronco]

Fine. I'll concede Shanahan is a very good coach and quite possibly HOF material one day.

But the whole 'Shanahan hasn't won anything without Elway' (and likely won't) argument is SUPPORTED historically by your title post!!! .

the question you should ask is..,...how many Super Bowls did Elway suit for without Coach Shanahan?

Answer: 0

[footstepsfrom#27]

About these 2 'facts". Belichik only had Bledsoe as his QB for his first year here in 2000. It was a bad year, but a failure? He did win an AFC title game with Bledsoe playing most of the game after Brady was injured.

And Parcells won his 2nd SuperBowl with Jeff Hostettler. Not Phil Simms.
No, actually Simms started 14 games and Hostetler 2, plus the playoffs...a gray area because you can make the argument that Simms got them there and we don't know if Hostetler would have done so or not. As I stated earlier, this was about who STARTED, not who got hurt. Now if Simms had gotten hurt in game 2 I'd look at it differently.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Technically...BP won two Super Bowls with two different QB's....so did Shula...with Morall and Griese in 72. Hostetler and Simms for BP in 91. And Jimmy Johnson only won two SB's. Switzer won the third.
See above...but you're right on Switzer...still doesn't change the fact Johnson only won with Troy though.

[CHEF LUIGI]

did I say superbowl??
In six consecutive seasons, our Broncos, led by Shanahan, have not won a SINGLE play-off game, not one!
I am still chewing on that!
you dont DARE show the PLAYOFF records of the coaches you want to associate shanahan with, why?
Because since ELWAY left, his record in the play-offs does not stack up!
Dan Reeves has a better post elway record than Shanahan, THATS what YOU should be chewing on!
"lost more than elway"
you named 4 other players...
IT HAS BEEN SIX FULL SEASONS, 7 DRAFTS AND 7 CHANCES TO TRADE AND FREE AGENCY.
you want me to cut shanny some slack because he has not replaced 5 players in 7 years?
Shanahan is a good coach, he used to be a great gameday coach, now he has issues.
That is reality!
This year, he has been better, lets see what he thinks is winning football for his broncos come this saturday!
if I see the empty backfield in the middle of a quarter, or at the goal-line I will have my answer.

[sonsofkraftybob]

Belichik has never won a playoff game without Brady.

See how easy being a journalist is?

Yeah but we are talking good journalists. Bill was 1-1 before coming here where he is now 11-1. He actually beat Parcells.

[PatsRule]

Wow interesting thread,where I come from you win 2 or more superbowls you are considered a great coach IMO...That said Shanahan and Belichik are both great...

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Yeah but we are talking good journalists. Bill was 1-1 before coming here where he is now 11-1. He actually beat Parcells.
:) I wonder how many games Parcells has won without Belichick. I'm thinking he's not even 500 without him.

[Clockwork Orange]

Wow interesting thread,where I come from you win 2 or more superbowls you are considered a great coach IMO...That said Shanahan and Belichik are both great...

Amen.

[footstepsfrom#27]

did I say superbowl??
In six consecutive seasons, our Broncos, led by Shanahan, have not won a SINGLE play-off game, not one!
I am still chewing on that!
you dont DARE show the PLAYOFF records of the coaches you want to associate shanahan with, why?
Because, very simply...he's not done yet. You can't judge him yet because he still has time. The other coaches I listed have their records set in stone. He doesn't. It's obvious that losing Elway and Davis first, then Zimmerman, Atwater and Sharpe...call for a rebuilding process. It's equally obvious that the three playoff losses were to BETTER TEAMS. Does that make sense?

Tom Landry went his last 6 years without a playoff win and lost the only 2 times they played after Danny White led them to the conference finals.

It took Chuck Noll 5 years to win a playoff game after winning the '79 Superbowl and he coached another 12 years with only 2 playoff wins

Don Shula took 9 years to win his first playoff game after winning the Superbowl in '73 and he lost 4 straight in the playoffs.

In 1955 Paul Brown won an NFL championship with Cleveland...and never won another playoff game in the rest of his coaching career...seven straight seasons.

After winning the Superbowl in '69 Hank Stram finished the last 5 seasons of his NFL career without a single playoff win.

Shanny is still relatively young...only 53...and could conceivably coach another 16 years if he wants to emulate Dick Vermeil...more than enough time for him to add to his legacy. But of course your limited sense of history and narrow scope of the experiences of the NFL's greatest head coaches doesn't let you see that does it?

[CHEF LUIGI]

Actually, it isn't incorrect to say Shanahan hasn't done much without Elway. This year is his chance to put that all behind him.
the quiet voice of simple reality.
Shanahan has all the tools he needs to win, come saturday.
Will he use them properly?
or will he get out-coached and waste his practice time and gameday plays on trying to look like a genius INSTEAD of playing SMART football?
Only one person can stop the broncos running game from dominating , that one person, is Mike Shanahan.

[footstepsfrom#27]

the quiet voice of simple reality.
Shanahan has all the tools he needs to win, come saturday.
Will he use them properly?
or will he get out-coached and waste his practice time and gameday plays on trying to look like a genius INSTEAD of playing SMART football?
Only one person can stop the broncos running game from dominating , that one person, is Mike Shanahan.
I see you're not a historian but it was just a year ago the Pats won the Superbowl. We're not playing Utah State.

[BroncoInferno]

the quiet voice of simple reality.
Shanahan has all the tools he needs to win, come saturday.
Will he use them properly?
or will he get out-coached and waste his practice time and gameday plays on trying to look like a genius INSTEAD of playing SMART football?
Only one person can stop the broncos running game from dominating , that one person, is Mike Shanahan.

You are full of ****. The PLAYERS will determine if we win. Shanny and Kubiak could put together the most brilliant gameplan ever conceived, but if the players fail to execute, we will lose. What an asinine comment.

[CHEF LUIGI]

I guess when shanahan empties out his backfield , AT THE GOALLINE, and jake either gets pummeled or throws up a hurried lame duck that gets intercepted, its because the players failed to execute?
a gameplan utilizes a teams strengths, while minimizing a teams weaknesses.
An offensive gameplan attacks the other teams weaknesses, utilizing their own strengths.
Defensively, you try and accomplish the same thing.
The gameplan, playcalling, formations, choice of personnell and 'scheme' has more to do with winning then jsust the players need to execute!
They have to execute a winning gameplan!
The teams with the BEST coaches win in the play-offs!
not necessarily the best QBs, the best running backs, or the best linebackers.
In the age of free agency and salary cap, the teams with the best coaches win in the play-offs.
Sometimes a fickle turnover can make a difference, but more times than not, its a fickle coach that costs his team its best chance of winning.
At this point, teams should realize what they do best and do it!
will the broncos play to their strengths?
That depends on shanahan and coyer.
will the players execute?
again I beleive the coaches have to get that performance out of their players.
When my broncos fail to win, I look at the coaches for their responsability FIRST, I always have, I always will. Since 1960.

[BroncoInferno]

I guess when shanahan empties out his backfield , AT THE GOALLINE, and jake either gets pummeled or throws up a hurried lame duck that gets intercepted, its because the players failed to execute?
a gameplan utilizes a teams strengths, while minimizing a teams weaknesses.
An offensive gameplan attacks the other teams weaknesses, utilizing their own strengths.
Defensively, you try and accomplish the same thing.
The gameplan, playcalling, formations, choice of personnell and 'scheme' has more to do with winning then jsust the players need to execute!
They have to execute a winning gameplan!
The teams with the BEST coaches win in the play-offs!
not necessarily the best QBs, the best running backs, or the best linebackers.
In the age of free agency and salary cap, the teams with the best coaches win in the play-offs.
Sometimes a fickle turnover can make a difference, but more times than not, its a fickle coach that costs his team its best chance of winning.
At this point, teams should realize what they do best and do it!
will the broncos play to their strengths?
That depends on shanahan and coyer.
will the players execute?
again I beleive the coaches have to get that performance out of their players.
When my broncos fail to win, I look at the coaches for their responsability FIRST, I always have, I always will. Since 1960.

Well, then you haven't learned much in your 45 years of watching football. Anyone who doesn't think that Mike Shanhan is one of the best in the game at devising a plan and calling plays is a damn fool. Gameplans ARE important aspects to winning a game, and more times than not, Shanny devises one good enough to win. When we lose, normally it's because of poor tackling, blown assignments, not adjusting your route to the blitz, throwing the ball into coverage etc etc etc...all things that are pretty much out of the coaches hands.

[footstepsfrom#27]

No response to post #40 recipe boy? You're a troll masquarading as a Bronco fan. Scram...and go whip me up something to eat. Don't spit in it either...:stirstir: :chairhit: :bash: :punched: thwack :nutkick

[CHEF LUIGI]

when I see shanahan take his fullbacks, and running backs off the field in a goal-line situation, I dont think it is MY foolishness on display!
when he does it to have BVP try to RUN the ball, then he is being smart and clever, not FOOLISH.
BB and the pats know that shanahan loves to throw the ball on first down.
thinking you will surprize them with a first down pass, deep, is foolish.
Throwing the ball to KJ on FIRST down, when you usualy only throw it to him on THIRD down would be clever.
EVERYBODY knows what we need to do to beat the pats.
my FEAR is that shanahn will try to do something different just to prove what a mastermind he is, and we will fail to do what we do best as a consequence!

If we run the ball 35+ times I guarantee a victory!
if we pass the ball 40+ times, I guarantee a loss.

My problem is that shanahn will spend his practice time and gameplanning trying to prove me wrong;
which is ok, but in the meantime, he will forget about what this team does best, and what it needs to do to win.
ego Vs. intelligence.
Shanny has both, which will prevail on saturday?
the answer will be on the scoreboard.

[BroncoInferno]

when I see shanahan take his fullbacks, and running backs off the field in a goal-line situation, I dont think it is MY foolishness on display!
when he does it to have BVP try to RUN the ball, then he is being smart and clever, not FOOLISH.
BB and the pats know that shanahan loves to throw the ball on first down.
thinking you will surprize them with a first down pass, deep, is foolish.
Throwing the ball to KJ on FIRST down, when you usualy only throw it to him on THIRD down would be clever.
EVERYBODY knows what we need to do to beat the pats.
my FEAR is that shanahn will try to do something different just to prove what a mastermind he is, and we will fail to do what we do best as a consequence!

If we run the ball 35+ times I guarantee a victory!
if we pass the ball 40+ times, I guarantee a loss.

My problem is that shanahn will spend his practice time and gameplanning trying to prove me wrong;
which is ok, but in the meantime, he will forget about what this team does best, and what it needs to do to win.
ego Vs. intelligence.
Shanny has both, which will prevail on saturday?
the answer will be on the scoreboard.

Too bad Shanahan doesn't bother to consult CHEF LUIGI in all his wisdom. He could straighten Mike out, if he would only pick up the phone!

[CHEF LUIGI]

Because, very simply...he's not done yet. You can't judge him yet because he still has time. The other coaches I listed have their records set in stone. He doesn't. It's obvious that losing Elway and Davis first, then Zimmerman, Atwater and Sharpe...call for a rebuilding process. It's equally obvious that the three playoff losses were to BETTER TEAMS. Does that make sense?

Tom Landry went his last 6 years without a playoff win and lost the only 2 times they played after Danny White led them to the conference finals.

It took Chuck Noll 5 years to win a playoff game after winning the '79 Superbowl and he coached another 12 years with only 2 playoff wins

Don Shula took 9 years to win his first playoff game after winning the Superbowl in '73 and he lost 4 straight in the playoffs.

In 1955 Paul Brown won an NFL championship with Cleveland...and never won another playoff game in the rest of his coaching career...seven straight seasons.

After winning the Superbowl in '69 Hank Stram finished the last 5 seasons of his NFL career without a single playoff win.

Shanny is still relatively young...only 53...and could conceivably coach another 16 years if he wants to emulate Dick Vermeil...more than enough time for him to add to his legacy. But of course your limited sense of history and narrow scope of the experiences of the NFL's greatest head coaches doesn't let you see that does it?
thank you so very much for this post!!
if you were here with me I would KISS you for it!
what did these coaches do after their seasons of glory/
DIDDLY SQUAT!
they became fat, tired and lazy, content to be 'competitive'
living off their past glory!
Can you not see the similarity between shanahan and these other coaches?
THASNK YOU VERY MUCH.
SHANNY BEFORE HE WON THE BIG ONE WAS A MUCH BETTER COACH THEN HE IS AFTER WINNING THE BIG ONE.
like most of his other comparable coaches, his record is a sign of his complacency.
and the fans and owners accept mediocrity as they polish their trophies.

[footstepsfrom#27]

when I see shanahan take his fullbacks, and running backs off the field in a goal-line situation, I dont think it is MY foolishness on display!
when he does it to have BVP try to RUN the ball, then he is being smart and clever, not FOOLISH.
BB and the pats know that shanahan loves to throw the ball on first down.
thinking you will surprize them with a first down pass, deep, is foolish.
Throwing the ball to KJ on FIRST down, when you usualy only throw it to him on THIRD down would be clever.
EVERYBODY knows what we need to do to beat the pats.
my FEAR is that shanahn will try to do something different just to prove what a mastermind he is, and we will fail to do what we do best as a consequence!

If we run the ball 35+ times I guarantee a victory!
if we pass the ball 40+ times, I guarantee a loss.

My problem is that shanahn will spend his practice time and gameplanning trying to prove me wrong;
which is ok, but in the meantime, he will forget about what this team does best, and what it needs to do to win.
ego Vs. intelligence.
Shanny has both, which will prevail on saturday?
the answer will be on the scoreboard.
Still no response to post #40 recipe boy?:troll: :kungfu:

[footstepsfrom#27]

thank you so very much for this post!!
if you were here with me I would KISS you for it!
what did these coaches do after their seasons of glory/
DIDDLY SQUAT!
they became fat, tired and lazy, content to be 'competitive'
living off their past glory!
Can you not see the similarity between shanahan and these other coaches?
THASNK YOU VERY MUCH.
SHANNY BEFORE HE WON THE BIG ONE WAS A MUCH BETTER COACH THEN HE IS AFTER WINNING THE BIG ONE.
like most of his other comparable coaches, his record is a sign of his complacency.
and the fans and owners accept mediocrity as they polish their trophies.
Wow...you're even stupider than I thought...hard to believe.rofl

[BroncoInferno]

thank you so very much for this post!!
if you were here with me I would KISS you for it!
what did these coaches do after their seasons of glory/
DIDDLY SQUAT!
they became fat, tired and lazy, content to be 'competitive'
living off their past glory!
Can you not see the similarity between shanahan and these other coaches?
THASNK YOU VERY MUCH.
SHANNY BEFORE HE WON THE BIG ONE WAS A MUCH BETTER COACH THEN HE IS AFTER WINNING THE BIG ONE.
like most of his other comparable coaches, his record is a sign of his complacency.
and the fans and owners accept mediocrity as they polish their trophies.

Chuck Knoll, Paul Brown, Tom Landry, et al were lazy, incompetent, trophy-polishing clowns. So says CHEIF LUIGI. Jesus.

Get out of here, fool.

[Bronco LB 59]

From 1986 to 1989, Don Shula failed to make the postseason in four consecutive seasons and his quarterback was Dan Marino!

Awesome thread footstepsfrom#27

[CHEF LUIGI]

No response to post #40 recipe boy? You're a troll masquarading as a Bronco fan. Scram...and go whip me up something to eat. Don't spit in it either...:stirstir: :chairhit: :bash: :punched: thwack :nutkick I hope you are happy with my response.
iF YOU HAVENT FIGURED OUT THAT i AM A REAL BRONCO FAN, ONE WHO SUPPORTED THIS TEAM SINCE THEY FIRST STEPED ONTO THE FIELD IN THOSE UGLY SOCKS TO GET BEAT BY A COLLEGE TEAM IN A SCRIMMAGE AT bEARS STADIUM, ONE WHO SAT IN THE COLD AND SNOW AND WIND OF EVERY HOME GAME OF THE SIXTIES, WHEN THE BRONCOS WERE THE DOORMAT OF THE LEAGUE, THEN YOU ARE NOT VERY BRIGHT.
i WAS A BRONCO FAN WHEN ELWAY WAS IN DIAPERS.
i WAS A BRONCO FAN LONG BEFORE SHANAHN COACHED HIS FIRST HIGH SCHOOL GAME, AND i WILL BE A BRONCO FAN UNTIL THE DAY i DIE.
iF YOU HAVE NOT FIGURED THAT OUT, AND WANT TO CALL ME A FALSE FAN BECAUSE i EXPECT A BETTER PERFORMANCE FROM OUR HEAD COACH THEN i SUGGEST YOU PUT ME ON IGNORE, MY LITTLE OSTRICH, BY ALL MEANS PUT YOUR HEAD IN THE SAND AND IGNORE REALITY, AND HOPE IT WILL GO AWAY!

[footstepsfrom#27]

i WAS A BRONCO FAN WHEN ELWAY WAS IN DIAPERS.
And now you're in diapers...senility is a terrible thing.:loopy: :dummy:

[CHEF LUIGI]

Chuck Knoll, Paul Brown, Tom Landry, et al were lazy, incompetent, trophy-polishing clowns. So says CHEIF LUIGI. Jesus.

Get out of here, fool.
i DID NOT SAY THAT, YOUR post AND THEIR POST SUPERBOWL GLORY SEASONS CONFIRMED IT!
tHEY STAYED TOO LONG AT THE FAIR!
THEY, AND THEIR TEAMS UNDERACHEIVED and because they put trophies in the case, their fans and organizations accepted mediocrity.
as fans we have to keep our expectatins high.
We must continue to hold the flames to shanahans feet!
We must continue to ask,
"what have you done for us lately"
otherwise, we will saee the same post season futility that we witnessed with the afore mentioned coaches.

[Bronco LB 59]

AND WANT TO CALL ME A FALSE FAN BECAUSE i EXPECT A BETTER PERFORMANCE FROM OUR HEAD COACH THEN i SUGGEST YOU PUT ME ON IGNORE, MY LITTLE OSTRICH, BY ALL MEANS PUT YOUR HEAD IN THE SAND AND IGNORE REALITY, AND HOPE IT WILL GO AWAY!

Mike Shanahan is 67-45 in the post Elway era. What more do you want?

[footstepsfrom#27]

Let's read this cabbage head for laughs but ignore his idiocy. He can't get attention from his parents so he wants to get it here...it's really quite sad.

[Tom A Hawk]

Belichik has never won a playoff game without Brady.

See how easy being a journalist is?

Brief, Accurate and to the point. That is better than what we see most of the time......good job

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Mike Shanahan is 67-45 in the post Elway era. What more do you want?
I think it's pretty obvious what we all want.....post season wins.

[CHEF LUIGI]

Mike Shanahan is 67-45 in the post Elway era. What more do you want?
a single play off victory would be nice.
this will be his seventh season to attempt it.

[BroncoInferno]

a single play off victory would be nice.
this will be his seventh season to attempt it.

Shula went 9 years without a playoff victory, then made it to 2 Super Bowls in a 4 year stretch. Impatient fools like you would have probably fired Shanahan a couple of seasons ago.

[Sean]

Must you pollute every single thread you post in with this garbage?

My god man, try to enjoy this.

[CHEF LUIGI]

Shula went 9 years without a playoff victory, then made it to 2 in a 4 year stretch. Impatient fools like you would have probably fired Shanahan a couple of seasons ago.
it is not my impatience you should be concerned with.
It is the impatience of the broncos head coach, who being down 8 points in the second QUARTER, starts throwing the ball around like a drunken sailor.
' A HC who abandones the run game after 7 rushing attenpts, thats the impatience YOU should be concerned with.

[BroncoInferno]

it is not my impatience you should be concerned with.
It is the impatience of the broncos head coach, who being down 8 points in the second QUARTER, starts throwing the ball around like a drunken sailor.
' A HC who abandones the run game after 7 rushing attenpts, thats the impatience YOU should be concerned with.

Don't worry, I don't concern myself with idiotic fans who think they know more than professionals who have proven themselves to be an elite in their field.

[CHEF LUIGI]

lets see how the ELITE perform this saturday.

[BroncoInferno]

lets see how the ELITE perform this saturday.

I have no doubts that Shanahan and Kubes will put together a superb gameplan as they usually do, especially with an extra week to refine it. The question is, will the players execute the gameplan properly. If we lose, it will be because they didn't.

[cutman0122]

the quiet voice of simple reality.
Shanahan has all the tools he needs to win, come saturday.
Will he use them properly?
or will he get out-coached and waste his practice time and gameday plays on trying to look like a genius INSTEAD of playing SMART football?
Only one person can stop the broncos running game from dominating , that one person, is Mike Shanahan.


Zam? Now where's Bud when you need him.....ooops sorry, wrong forum! :)

[CHEF LUIGI]

I have no doubts that Shanahan and Kubes will put together a superb gameplan as they usually do, especially with an extra week to refine it. The question is, will the players execute the gameplan properly. If we lose, it will be because they didn't.
superb gameplan?
35+ runs for the broncos, we win.
40+ passes for the broncos we lose.
15 run plays in the first half.
at least 2 designed runs for PLUMMER for positive yards in the first half.
75% of the passes go to ROD, PUTZ and KJ.
KJ should get 4-6 touches in this game.
attack the pass at the point of origin, we must pressure brady!
there is your winning gameplan, lets hope shanny and kubiak dont screw it up trying to find a secret recipe!

[Man-Goblin]

Outstanding post footsteps.

I've wanted to do the same thing with Rod Smith and see how many receivers have gone to a Pro Bowl with 3 different starting quarterbacks but I haven't had time.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Originally Posted by Alec
Belichik has never won a playoff game without Brady.

See how easy being a journalist is?

Brief, Accurate and to the point. That is better than what we see most of the time......good job

Good job on what?

[Paladin]

All this crap from a KC mullet fan? Wow. It is interesting that Shanahan has coached this francise to 10 winning seasons out of the 11 he's been HC. There's not a KC mullet coach who can match that record. I just laugh at the jealousy the mullet fans spew when they talk about the Broncos' records. Poor babies.........

That is why I have no respect whatsoever for the KC mullets.

[CHEF LUIGI]

superb gameplan?
35+ runs for the broncos, we win.
40+ passes for the broncos we lose.
15 run plays in the first half.
at least 2 designed runs for PLUMMER for positive yards in the first half.
75% of the passes go to ROD, PUTZ and KJ.
KJ should get 4-6 touches in this game.
attack the pass at the point of origin, we must pressure brady!
there is your winning gameplan, lets hope shanny and kubiak dont screw it up trying to find a secret recipe!
here is the gameplan, what is your mullet comment?
want to make a wager on the first two premises?
35+ runs we win.
40+ passes, we lose?
are you smarter than my "mullet" ?
will shanahn dare to do what everyone says he should do, run the dadgum ball?

[backup qb]

Shouldn't you chief fans be off cooking up some meth? Leave the intelligent football talk to those of us who actually have functioning brain cells.

[usndan]

First post here, and wanted to make a quick comment. If you asked Shanny to put his Super Bowl rings on the table, so your eyes could behold them, you know how many there would be? There would be 3 Super Bowl rings, 1 Super Bowl won as Offensive Coord. in San Francisco (Helped Steve Young win that Championship) and 2 as Head Coach for Denver. I think people tend to forget how well Shanny has done for himself, He has 3 Super Bowl rings to show for his work and I would not be suprised in the least to see him add more to his collection! GO BRONCOS!!!

[TotallyScrewed]

did I say superbowl??
In six consecutive seasons, our Broncos, led by Shanahan, have not won a SINGLE play-off game, not one!
I am still chewing on that!
you dont DARE show the PLAYOFF records of the coaches you want to associate shanahan with, why?
Because since ELWAY left, his record in the play-offs does not stack up!
Dan Reeves has a better post elway record than Shanahan, THATS what YOU should be chewing on!
"lost more than elway"
you named 4 other players...
IT HAS BEEN SIX FULL SEASONS, 7 DRAFTS AND 7 CHANCES TO TRADE AND FREE AGENCY.
you want me to cut shanny some slack because he has not replaced 5 players in 7 years?
Shanahan is a good coach, he used to be a great gameday coach, now he has issues.
That is reality!
This year, he has been better, lets see what he thinks is winning football for his broncos come this saturday!
if I see the empty backfield in the middle of a quarter, or at the goal-line I will have my answer.


Not to be argumentative but the Broncos lost a lot more than 5 players from their SB teams. And I'm not talking just routine fill-out-the-roster players...

[Atlas]

Well it's that time again...time for all the trolls who enter here to spout off with "Shanahan's never won a Superbowl without Elway". Yes...there are other idiotic rants as well but this seems to be the main one whenever we dare to bring up his sparkling record. Second to this is the "no playoff wins without Elway"...a ridiculous fact that forgets a huge rebuilding job that needed to replace not only Elway, but HOF caliber players in Terrell Davis, Shannon Sharpe, Gary Zimmerman and Steve Atwater, plus the fact that all 3 playoff losses have come on the road, one to the eventual Superbowl champion Baltimore Ravens. So with this in mind I decided to look back in NFL history to ask a simiple question...

How many NFL coaches won Superbowls or NFL championships with the same team and different quarterbacks in the modern era?

We'll call the modern era everything from 1950 onward...no leather helmets or single wing or Canton Bulldogs or Oorang Indians considered here...fair enough?

Answer...three. Only Weeb Ewbank, Joe Gibbs and George Siefert among Superbowl/NFL championship winning coaches have won with more than one quarterback. Siefert was blessed with Joe Montana and Steve Young...two HOF quarterbacks. Ewbank won two NFL titles with Johnny Unitas and a Superbowl with Joe Namath...two more HOF QB's...though he gets an asterisk since he won with two different teams, not one. Gibbs won with 3 different guys, none of them spectacular...a truly outstanding achievement that stands alone in the modern era. A look at what some of the best coaches in NFL history did without their superstar quarterbacks...

1. Paul Brown won 3 NFL championships and finished 2nd 4 times. He won all his titles with Otto Graham and went to 3 of the 4 title games he lost with Graham as well...but never won a title without Graham.

2. Tom Landry coached 29 years and won 2 Superbowls with Roger Stauback and failed with Don Merideth (2 NFL championship game losses), Craig Morton (1 Superbowl loss) and Danny White (3 losses in NFC conference championship games).

3. Vince Lombardi coached 9 years and won 2 Superbowls and 3 NFL championships...all with Bart Starr.

4. Don Shula coached 26 years with the Dolphins and went to 3 Superbowls with Bob Griese, winning 2 and losing 1...and also failing with David Woodley and Dan Marino in two other Superbowls. He also coached an additional 7 years with the Colts and failed twice with the legendary Johnny Unitas and Earl Morrall, losing a Superbowl with Morall and an NFL championship game with Unitas.

5. Bill Walsh won 3 Superbowls in 10 years...all with Joe Montana.

6. Chuck Noll won 4 Superbowls with Terry Bradshaw, and coached 9 more years after Bradshaw left without winning another title while going 2-4 in the playoffs.

7. Hank Stram won an NFL championship and went to 2 Superbowls, winning 1 and losing 1...all with Len Dawson. Stram retired the year before Dawson finally lost his starting job and he also retired.

8. John Madden won a Superbowl for the Raiders with Ken Stabler and Tom Flores won 2 with Jim Plunkett but neither won a title with anyone else.

9. Jimmy Johnson won all 3 of his Superbowls with Troy Aikman and failed with Marino in Miami.

10. The Patriots Bill Belichick failed with Drew Bledsoe before finding Tom Brady and has won all 3 of his Superbowls with him.

11. Bill Parcells won 2 Superbowls with Phil Simms but failed with both Drew Bledsoe and Vinny Testeverde in New England and New York.

12. Mike Shanahan has 2 Superbowl titles with Elway, and if he fails to win another Superbowl he will join Paul Brown, Vince Lombardi, Don Shula, Tom Landry, Chuck Noll, Hank Stram, Bill Walsh, John Madden, Tom Flores, Jimmy Johnson, Bill Parcells, Bill Belichick and a few other guys who won titles with a great QB and didn't with anyone else.

If Shanahan does win another Superbowl title without Elway he'll join only 3 coaches in NFL history to achieve that feat...and the names Unitas, Namath, Montana and Young were the ones they used to do it.

Let the Trolls chew on that next time you hear it.

and that's why footstepsfrom#27 is my hero

[No1BroncoFan]

here is the gameplan, what is your mullet comment?
want to make a wager on the first two premises?
35+ runs we win.
40+ passes, we lose?
are you smarter than my "mullet" ?
will shanahn dare to do what everyone says he should do, run the dadgum ball?
So, what happens if we ron the ball 34 times and pass 39 times? God, but you're stupid. Welcome to the ignore list.

Ben

[Atlas]

Denver's defense is top notch. One of the best this year. But on par with those championship defenses? Honestly?

So it would seem as if it is entirely likely that Shanhan likely won't win the Super Bowl again until he gets a dominate QB.

I think this years defense is better than the defenses in '97 and '98. Denver could win the Superbowl this year and Shanny will cement his staus for the HOF.

[Merlin]

I bow to your superior intellect CHEF.

BTW, since your enlightened posts clearly demonstrate that Shanahan's poor post-Elway Playoff record is due to his poor coaching and game planning. Could you please help me understand these 2 questions:

1. The first playoff game he lost was against perhaps the best D in the history of football (and by far the best D against zone blocking). The game was played away from home (making rushing more difficult), and with a mediocre QB. What should Shanahan's mediocre game planning have done to counter such simple circumstances?

2. Playoffs #2 and #3 were played against the best O in the league in their turf, and Denver went in injured. The games were obviously lost by the D. What should Shanahan's O game plan have done to counteract such obviously simple obstacles?

Thanks for any insight you may provide us poor simpletons.

[listopencil]

Elway certainly won playoff games without Shanahan. In fact, he won them by himself. Now remind me of Mikey's playoff record w/o Elway?




Off the top of my head...he won a SB with Steve Young as the OC. I guess that would make at least three playoff wins without Elway, wouldn't it?

[CHEF LUIGI]

I bow to your superior intellect CHEF.

BTW, since your enlightened posts clearly demonstrate that Shanahan's poor post-Elway Playoff record is due to his poor coaching and game planning. Could you please help me understand these 2 questions:

1. The first playoff game he lost was against perhaps the best D in the history of football (and by far the best D against zone blocking). The game was played away from home (making rushing more difficult), and with a mediocre QB. What should Shanahan's mediocre game planning have done to counter such simple circumstances?

2. Playoffs #2 and #3 were played against the best O in the league in their turf, and Denver went in injured. The games were obviously lost by the D. What should Shanahan's O game plan have done to counteract such obviously simple obstacles?

Thanks for any insight you may provide us poor simpletons.
I dont discount the defense lost bith colts play-off games.
Our special teams also stunk up the joint.
shanahan cant coach either.
he is not a mastermind, he does not impact that wich he does not have a working knowledge of, that includes the running game.
Shanahn designs pass plays and formations, the rest of the football team relies on the talents of other coaches, things like blocking, tackling, defense, kicking, not shanahans "bag' other coaches are responsable for that.
Shanahan is just the figure head.
some folks want to give him all the credit when we succeed, but FAIL to lay a single drop of blame at his feet when we fail.

[CHEF LUIGI]

So, what happens if we ron the ball 34 times and pass 39 times? God, but you're stupid. Welcome to the ignore list.

Ben
if we pass more than we run, there is a real good chance we lose, just not guaranteed!
if we establish a running game, with a foundation of 15 runs in the first half, we stand a better chance of winning.
you want %s/
at LEAST 60% runs!
Especially true for our broncos but for MOST of the NFL as well.
look at the 4 play-off games played so far, the team that passed the most lost, the team that ran the most won.
forget about the yardage, tornovers can sque those numbers and change the outcome of games, the redskins game, as an example.
But you put two teams together, locked in a contest and the team that runs more than it passes is usually the winner and the team that passes more than it runs is destined for a loss.
spare me your second half all teams ahead run analogy, check out the first half stats!
the teams that show a legitimate commitment to the run game in the FIRST half are the eventual winners!

[24champ]

Chef Luigi answer me this, if Shanahan is such a crappy coach (which he isnt) who would we have replaced him with and why is that coach better than Shanahan?

[devour]

I tend to agree with the Chef, although I think the message would be alot clearer if it was put in terms of run/pass ratio rather than hard numbers.

Whichever you do, it needs to be effective. 40+ runs @ 2yd/carry is not effective. Denver's strength is the rushing attack. If you are able to play to your strength, it generally means you are leading, in control of the game, or at least have a good chance of controlling it. If Denver goes pass wacky like Jacksonville, it means either you're playing catch up, or you're trying to get cute. Neither is a desirable scenario.

btw, I personally think Shannahan is an excellent coach, but not very sure about his skills in talent evaluation. You can think up the greatest strategies, but if you don't have the players to execute them, then the strategies aren't worth much.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Originally Posted by CHEF LUIGI

Dan Reeves has a better post elway record than Shanahan, THATS what YOU should be chewing on!
Career Coaching Record in games without John Elway

Mike Shanahan 67-45 (.598 winning percentage)
Dan Reeves 80-92-1 (.465 winning percentage)

Coaching Record Since John Elway's retirement

Mike Shanahan 67-45 (.598 winning percentage)
Dan Reeves 28-48-1 (.368 winning percentage)

"It is better to sit in silence and appear ignorant, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."--Mark Twain

[BroncoInferno]

here is the gameplan, what is your mullet comment?
want to make a wager on the first two premises?
35+ runs we win.
40+ passes, we lose?
are you smarter than my "mullet" ?
will shanahn dare to do what everyone says he should do, run the dadgum ball?

The problem with your gross oversimplification is that it doesn't account for what's going on defensively. What if the D is doing a poor job tackling and/or blows an assignment or two, and all of a sudden were down by two or three scores? You've got to alter your gameplan, suddenly. I doubt if there is a game where Shanny doesn't plan on running it 30+ times, but sometimes what occurs during the game makes you alter that plan. If we throw it 40+ times, it's probably because we are behind and trying to get back in it. These are all things obvious to most fans, but impatient bafoons like you never learn, always think you know more than goddam professionals with proven track records of success..

[BroncoInferno]

Career Coaching Record in games without John Elway

Mike Shanahan 67-45 (.598 winning percentage)
Dan Reeves 80-92-1 (.465 winning percentage)

Coaching Record Since John Elway's retirement

Mike Shanahan 67-45 (.598 winning percentage)
Dan Reeves 28-48-1 (.368 winning percentage)

"It is better to sit in silence and appear ignorant, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."--Mark Twain

ROFL!

[CHEF LUIGI]

yeh, bart star once put his rings on the table to show his players what a great coach he was.
the guy stunk as a coach, do you have a better analogy?
To has a ring, do you think he would make a good coach?
its not about the rings or trophies, its about ,
"what have you done lately"
zero play-off wins in the last six seasons.
do we demand improvement or lower our standards?
where do I get my "nice season" T-shirt?

[TommyD4207]

First post here, and wanted to make a quick comment. If you asked Shanny to put his Super Bowl rings on the table, so your eyes could behold them, you know how many there would be? There would be 3 Super Bowl rings, 1 Super Bowl won as Offensive Coord. in San Francisco (Helped Steve Young win that Championship) and 2 as Head Coach for Denver. I think people tend to forget how well Shanny has done for himself, He has 3 Super Bowl rings to show for his work and I would not be suprised in the least to see him add more to his collection! GO BRONCOS!!!

If Belichick were to lay all of his rings on the table...

There would be 5 of them.

3 with the Pats, 2 with the Giants as DC. (Both SB rings with the Giants were without Brady ;) )

And I would not be surprised in the least to see him add more to his collection

:notworthy


:lombardi: :lombardi: :lombardi:

and in 3 weeks, another :lombardi:

[CHEF LUIGI]

The problem with your gross oversimplification is that it doesn't account for what's going on defensively. What if the D is doing a poor job tackling and/or blows an assignment or two, and all of a sudden were down by two or three scores? You've got to alter your gameplan, suddenly. I doubt if there is a game where Shanny doesn't plan on running it 30+ times, but sometimes what occurs during the game makes you alter that plan. If we throw it 40+ times, it's probably because we are behind and trying to get back in it. These are all things obvious to most fans, but impatient bafoons like you never learn, always think you know more than goddam professionals with proven track records of success..
this is a viable arguement, but too often we have witnessed shanahan abandon his run game in the FIRST half when he is only down by TEN points.
Suddenly he is passing every down, the defense gets no rest, jake throws another INT that gets returned for a TD and whadayaknow, now we do have to pass because we were passinfg too much to begin with!

[CHEF LUIGI]

impatient bafoon, funny thats what I think about coaches when they abandon their run the moment they get down by a TD.
the GIANTS were impatient bafoons, they only ran 8 times in the first half, when ELI got picked off coming out passing at the start of the third quarter, TIKI only had 8 carries, sure enough, they passed themselves right into a passing situation.

[BroncoSoja]

Well it's that time again...time for all the trolls who enter here to spout off with "Shanahan's never won a Superbowl without Elway". Yes...there are other idiotic rants as well but this seems to be the main one whenever we dare to bring up his sparkling record. Second to this is the "no playoff wins without Elway"...a ridiculous fact that forgets a huge rebuilding job that needed to replace not only Elway, but HOF caliber players in Terrell Davis, Shannon Sharpe, Gary Zimmerman and Steve Atwater, plus the fact that all 3 playoff losses have come on the road, one to the eventual Superbowl champion Baltimore Ravens. So with this in mind I decided to look back in NFL history to ask a simiple question...

How many NFL coaches won Superbowls or NFL championships with the same team and different quarterbacks in the modern era?

We'll call the modern era everything from 1950 onward...no leather helmets or single wing or Canton Bulldogs or Oorang Indians considered here...fair enough?

Answer...three. Only Weeb Ewbank, Joe Gibbs and George Siefert among Superbowl/NFL championship winning coaches have won with more than one quarterback. Siefert was blessed with Joe Montana and Steve Young...two HOF quarterbacks. Ewbank won two NFL titles with Johnny Unitas and a Superbowl with Joe Namath...two more HOF QB's...though he gets an asterisk since he won with two different teams, not one. Gibbs won with 3 different guys, none of them spectacular...a truly outstanding achievement that stands alone in the modern era. A look at what some of the best coaches in NFL history did without their superstar quarterbacks...

1. Paul Brown won 3 NFL championships and finished 2nd 4 times. He won all his titles with Otto Graham and went to 3 of the 4 title games he lost with Graham as well...but never won a title without Graham.

2. Tom Landry coached 29 years and won 2 Superbowls with Roger Stauback and failed with Don Merideth (2 NFL championship game losses), Craig Morton (1 Superbowl loss) and Danny White (3 losses in NFC conference championship games).

3. Vince Lombardi coached 9 years and won 2 Superbowls and 3 NFL championships...all with Bart Starr.

4. Don Shula coached 26 years with the Dolphins and went to 3 Superbowls with Bob Griese, winning 2 and losing 1...and also failing with David Woodley and Dan Marino in two other Superbowls. He also coached an additional 7 years with the Colts and failed twice with the legendary Johnny Unitas and Earl Morrall, losing a Superbowl with Morall and an NFL championship game with Unitas.

5. Bill Walsh won 3 Superbowls in 10 years...all with Joe Montana.

6. Chuck Noll won 4 Superbowls with Terry Bradshaw, and coached 9 more years after Bradshaw left without winning another title while going 2-4 in the playoffs.

7. Hank Stram won an NFL championship and went to 2 Superbowls, winning 1 and losing 1...all with Len Dawson. Stram retired the year before Dawson finally lost his starting job and he also retired.

8. John Madden won a Superbowl for the Raiders with Ken Stabler and Tom Flores won 2 with Jim Plunkett but neither won a title with anyone else.

9. Jimmy Johnson won all 3 of his Superbowls with Troy Aikman and failed with Marino in Miami.

10. The Patriots Bill Belichick failed with Drew Bledsoe before finding Tom Brady and has won all 3 of his Superbowls with him.

11. Bill Parcells won 2 Superbowls with Phil Simms but failed with both Drew Bledsoe and Vinny Testeverde in New England and New York.

12. Mike Shanahan has 2 Superbowl titles with Elway, and if he fails to win another Superbowl he will join Paul Brown, Vince Lombardi, Don Shula, Tom Landry, Chuck Noll, Hank Stram, Bill Walsh, John Madden, Tom Flores, Jimmy Johnson, Bill Parcells, Bill Belichick and a few other guys who won titles with a great QB and didn't with anyone else.

If Shanahan does win another Superbowl title without Elway he'll join only 3 coaches in NFL history to achieve that feat...and the names Unitas, Namath, Montana and Young were the ones they used to do it.

Let the Trolls chew on that next time you hear it.

Wow good stuff OP, now go back and tell us how many of those coaches failed to win ONE (1!!!) PLAYOFF game without there star QB.....One...

I think my sig says it all on how I feel about Shanny I have watched him make to many boned head calls in the past costing us games. BUT and yes there is a but, I really think that I was overreacting since we all make mistakes and it might be time to get rid of this sig. Expecially since I think he has done a bang up job this year with the talent we have. I give him a A this year for his job preformance. And even if we dont win this weekend I do think he is taking this team in the right direction.

Still, we really need to win a few playoff games. Thats just the way life is, you have to produce or people will question. I think people will stop questioning after this weekend when we beat the leaving hell out of the Brady boys.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Wow good stuff OP, now go back and tell us how many of those coaches failed to win ONE (1!!!) PLAYOFF game without there star QB.....One...
Read post #40

[CHEF LUIGI]

post #40 will list a bunch of coaches that FAILED to do much after their superbowl glory years.
A wise individual will see that shanahan is headed down the same path.
"in his own words" shanahan discribes a burned out coach as one who is financially secure and not in fear of losing his job.
you tell me.

[Spider]

post #40 will list a bunch of coaches that FAILED to do much after their superbowl glory years.
A wise individual will see that shanahan is headed down the same path.
"in his own words" shanahan discribes a burned out coach as one who is financially secure and not in fear of losing his job.
you tell me.Did your parents have to smack you realy hard to get a point across when you was growing up?

[Circle Orange]

Personally, I've never won a playoff game without Craig Krenzel...

[footstepsfrom#27]

Did your parents have to smack you realy hard to get a point across when you was growing up?
Feeding this troll is like tossing jelly doghnuts at an 800 pound woman whose trying to sit on you...counter productive.

[Spider]

Feeding this troll is like tossing jelly doghnuts at an 800 pound woman whose trying to sit on you...counter productive.
I love living dangerously

[Old Dude]

Post-Elway breakdown.

1999-2000

Griese's second year and first year as a starter. QB success is rare in that sort of situation. More importantly, the Broncos were absolutely slaughtered by injuries. Mobley went down for the season in week 2, Terrell Davis gone for the season in week 4, Shannon Sharpe went down for the season in week 5 and Tony Jones missed extended time as well.

By comparison, take this year's San Diego Chargers, with Rivers instead of Brees, and put Tomlinson, Gates and Merriman on Injured reserve, all by the fifth week. And take away their LT for a quarter of the season.

Anyone think they'd be better than 6-10?

Worst moves: (1) Big bucks for Dale Carter; (2) Burns lost to Free Agency.
Best move: Drafting of Al Wilson and Olandis Gary.
Sad move: Atwater goes to the Jets, but frankly, Steve did not have a very good year there and probably would not have made that much of a difference if he'd stayed.

2000-2001

All things considered, a good comeback year for the Broncos, who rebounded to go 11-5.

Despite the fact that Davis got injured again, this time permanently, and despite the early loss of Olandis Gary, the Broncos still put together a great rushing attack with Mike Anderson. The Raiders won the division that year with a 12-4 record. Two of their four losses were to Denver.

The biggest problem was that the Broncos just lost too many people on defense, and F/A replacements just didn't quite cut it. (This was the year when Dillon scorched us in a record breaking rushing performance) Rookies like O'Neal and Gold came on late in the year. Unfortunately, Griese, who was really starting to become a positive factor at QB, was badly hurt late in the season. The Broncos also had the misfortune of playing the Ravens on the road in the wild card round. The Ravens were the best team in the NFL that year and would go on to win the super bowl.

Worst moves: (1) Letting Shannon Sharpe go to the Ravens; (2) Signing Lester Archambeau, a serious bust.

Best move: Drafting Mike Anderson.

Things were looking up after the disasterous 2000 season, and it appeared that Shanny had rebuilt the team into at least a marginal contender in only one year. The Broncos would bring in Ray Rhodes to address the issues on D.

2001-2002

Griese took a step back. Partly because he never really recovered from the injuries. Partly because his receiving corps was depleted. McCaffrey went out for the season on the MNF game the night before 9/11. Sharpe was long gone to the Ravens. Rod Smith was the only threat and played hurt most of the season. This was the same season Eddie Kennison bailed on the team, without warning. Thanks a lot Eddie.

Griese finished as one of the lowest ranked QBs in the league.

Best move: Chester McGlockton wasn't a bad pickup and helped to temporarily patch some holes on the defense.

Bad moves: (1) A horrible rookie crop. Middlebrooks and Toviessi were busts from the word go. (2) The O-line seemed unsettled with Gibbs coaching part time.

This was Shanny's worst coaching year in Denver, IMHO. The draft was awful. The depletion of the receiving corps hurt, but should not have dropped the Broncos to 8-8.

2002-2003

The year we had a pretty good draft. Almost made up for the awful one the year before: Lelie, Portis, Brandon & Putzier all came that year.

We lost Tom Nalen about a third of the way through the season, and Neil was hurt a little after that. Hamilton did a fine job of filling in, though.

Mostly, we lost a great opportunity. The Raiders were reeling on a 4 game losing streak, and we had a bye week to get ready for them. Rhodes put in some crazy-ass defense featuring a two-man pass rush and it was all over. At hat point, the defense was ready to mutiny, and I don't think the Broncs really recovered. We lost 4 of our final 6 games to finish 9-7, and out of the playoffs.

Best move: The draft.
Worst Move: Jelly Dalton just wasn't worth the money. Another big bucks bust for the D.

You guys all know what happened over the past two years. Two wild card dates with the Colts in the RCA dome.

But keep this in mind. Visiting teams only win about 30% of the time on wild card week. In the first match, the Broncos went into Indy on the third leg of a 3-game road trip.

Last year, the secondary was banged up, and we had to throw Alexander to the wolves. The poor guy got eaten alive by one of the most prolific passing attacks in NFL history. It's easy to say that Shanny should not have been in that position in the first place, but injuries happen.

All in all, one losing season (6-10) two mediocre seasons (9-7 amd 8-8) and three playoff appearances, but all as wild cards, with some serious injury issues, against some very good teams, on the road.

All in all I think Shanny has done a good job over the past 6 years, but not a great one. Some of what happened was within his control, but a lot of it wasn't.

This year will go a long way toward defining the "post-Elway" era. Saturday will have a lot to say about it.

[fontaine]

Last year, the secondary was banged up, and we had to throw Alexander to the wolves. The poor guy got eaten alive by one of the most prolific passing attacks in NFL history. It's easy to say that Shanny should not have been in that position in the first place, but injuries happen.


How do you feel about Dwill being rushed back to play nickel? I'm not so sure that a rookie that's missed the last four weeks should be playing. He's a solid player no doubt, but I hope they look towards Brandon or Cox quickly if it looks like he's not getting it done instead of hanging him out to dry for the whole game.

[Old Dude]

I expect that he'll see some action, but I also expect to see a lot of Curome Cox. Brandon, I'm not so sure about.

The thing is that the secondary has looked pretty good even without Darrent over the past 14 quarters since he went out.

I think we can beat New England without him. But I think he could be a critical factor against Indy. Still, I'd want to get him in this week's game, too see at least some action, so that he doesn't come in completely cold against Harrison and or Wayne next week. A veteran might be able to do that. Not so sure about a rookie.

[bendog]

How much 3 wr will NE show?

[CHEF LUIGI]

How much 3 wr will NE show?
Plenty, they may open up with 4 or 5 wide and if they like the match-ups , go no huddle to keep our defense from changing personnel.
regardless of D-wills "readiness" unless we can effectively RUSH and PRESSURE brady, it really wont matter.
An un-hurried brady will have success against any secondary!
"attack the pass at the point of origin"

[Old Dude]

I don't know.

They've got to be concerned about Trevor Pryce. He made life miserable for them last time, and Kaczur is going to need some help. That says to me that they need to keep at least one TE on the line to block. The problem is that once you start holding people in, you start inviting the blitz, and Coyer loves the zone blitz.

Long and the short of it is that the Pats, just like the Broncos, are going to have to have some success both on the ground and in the air to move the ball effectively, so I don't expect too many gimmicks.

[bendog]

I'm thinking along the same lines. Whenever Den runs an injury line in the playoffs, shanny's gaming. Den knows they cannot win if the NE gameplan is to throw 40 times and if Den plays a two deep, rush four, cover the field scheme. Or prolly not win.

I've no doubt DWill is still hurt though. But, I think Shanny would prefer to see NE in a 3wr scheme. Den will still put 4 down lineman, who physically out man the NE line, so Den would be even stouter against the run. Den could either go 3 safties or 3 corners and mix up the blitzing. And, its harder to picku the blitz with one back, even if there's a te. Of course that takes DJ off the field, which is my only real gripe aobut this season and the coaching/front office.

[TotallyScrewed]

BUMP!


It's time to own up Chef!