View Full Version : New York Times will run this tuesday and if so .....
Spider
12-19-2005, 09:07 PM
http://rawstory.com/news/2005/FBI_watched_array_of_environmental_animal_1219.htm l
FBI watched array of environmental, animal, and poverty groups
RAW STORY
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Counterterrorism agents at the FBI have conducted numerous surveillance and intelligence-gathering operations that involved, at least indirectly, groups active in causes as diverse as the environment, animal cruelty and poverty relief, newly disclosed agency records show, the NEW YORK TIMES is set to splash in Tuesday's papers...
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FBI officials said Monday that their investigators had no interest in monitoring political or social activities and that any investigations that touched on advocacy groups were driven by evidence of criminal or violent activity at public protests and in other settings.
After the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, John Ashcroft, who was then attorney general, loosened restrictions on the FBI's investigative powers. The bureau has used that authority to investigate not only groups with suspected ties to foreign terrorists, but also protest groups suspected of having links to violent or disruptive activities.
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But the documents, coming after the Bush administration's confirmation that President Bush had authorized domestic anti-terrorism spying without warrants, prompted charges from civil rights advocates that the government had improperly blurred the line between terrorism and acts of civil disobedience and lawful protest.
One FBI document indicates that agents in Indianapolis planned to conduct surveillance as part of a "Vegan Community Project." Another document talks of the Catholic Workers group's "semi-communistic ideology." A third document indicates the bureau's interest in determining the location of a protest over llama fur planned by People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals.
The documents, provided to The New York Times over the past week, came as part of a series of Freedom of Information Act lawsuits brought by the American Civil Liberties Union, which has sought access to FBI files on about 150 protest and social groups that it says may have been improperly monitored.
"You look at these documents," said Ann Beeson, associate legal director for the ACLU, "and you think wow, we have really returned to the days of J. Edgar Hoover."
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More from the AP (advanced):
The American Civil Liberties Union has accused the FBI of misusing terrorism investigators to monitor some domestic political organizations, despite apparently disparate views within the FBI whether some groups supported or committed violent acts, the Associated Press is set to reveal, RAW STORY has learned.
Citing hundreds of pages of heavily-censored documents it obtained from the FBI under the Freedom of Information Act, lawyers for the ACLU described this disputed use of terrorism resources as the latest illustration of intensified surveillance aimed toward Americans. "Using labels like domestic terrorists to describe peaceful protest activity can chill robust political debate in this country," ACLU lawyer Ben Wizner said in New York. The ACLU said it will publish the FBI reports it obtained on its Web site Tuesday.
In one case, government records show the FBI launched a terrorism investigation of the People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals in Norfolk, Va., despite acknowledgment by one FBI official that, "The FBI does not consider PETA a terrorist organization." The FBI responded that it conducts its investigations appropriately - subject to U.S. laws and Justice Department guidelines. It said the ACLU mischaracterized some passing references to political groups in FBI files to suggest those groups were under investigation; in other cases the FBI confirmed it was acting on tips tying groups to alleged illegal activities. The FBI documents indicate the government launched its terrorism investigation of PETA because the group was "suspected of providing material support and resources to known domestic terrorism organizations," including the Animal Liberation Front and Earth Liberation Front. Advertisement
The ACLU said the FBI documents also suggest that federal terrorism investigators infiltrated the Washington-based American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee. One document, sent to an FBI counterterrorism unit in Los Angeles, describes a list of attendees from the group at a conference in Stanford, Calif., to protest sanctions against Iraq in May 2002. Other FBI documents obtained by the ACLU describe efforts in May 2001 by Greenpeace and the Los Angeles-based Catholic Workers Group to disrupt missile tests in California. The FBI said the Catholic Workers Group "advocates a communist distribution of resources."
L.A. BRONCOS FAN
12-19-2005, 10:01 PM
Tin soldiers and Dubya's comin'....
ClevelandBronco2
12-20-2005, 01:41 AM
Laurel and Hardy.
Guess which is which.
L.A. BRONCOS FAN
12-20-2005, 04:38 AM
Laurel and Hardy.
Guess which is which.
The last two people in America who haven't realized they've been had by Team Smirk & Snarl.
http://www.bartcop.com/limbo-monkey.jpg
gunns
12-20-2005, 05:28 AM
The last two people in America who haven't realized they've been had by Team Smirk & Snarl.
http://www.bartcop.com/limbo-monkey.jpg
And the only two people who didn't think activities like this would happen with the Patriot Act. Seems the noose may be tightening.
Spider
12-20-2005, 06:00 AM
Laurel and Hardy.
Guess which is which.
Thats ok , Hero worship dies hard ........
I understand Cleveland , Guys like you hate America ,I have suspected this for along time , you hate freedom , you much rather prefer a dictatorship , you can not handle an opposing point of view, And you have been known ,to go completely bat shít , when confronted with truth , about somthing Bad about your party ........You have even Neg reped me for asking another Member here , about the condition of his son, who is having a rough go of it , but Still fighting .....So it is no suprise , you dodge this story , and go right for a personal attack on me and LABF ...... In fact I expected this, from such a devote Christian like yourself ...... Even though you hate America and what this country Stands for
Merry Christmas Cleveland Bronco
L.A. BRONCOS FAN
12-20-2005, 06:14 AM
Thats ok , Hero worship dies hard ........
I understand Cleveland , Guys like you hate America ,I have suspected this for along time , you hate freedom , you much rather prefer a dictatorship , you can not handle an opposing point of view, And you have been known ,to go completely bat shít , when confronted with truth , about somthing Bad about your party ........You have even Neg reped me for asking another Member here , about the condition of his son, who is having a rough go of it , but Still fighting .....So it is no suprise , you dodge this story , and go right for a personal attack on me and LABF ...... In fact I expected this, from such a devote Christian like yourself ...... Even though you hate America and what this country Stands for
Merry Christmas Cleveland Bronco
:thumbsup:
Post of the day!
Bronco_Beerslug
12-20-2005, 06:14 AM
People who don't realize how serious government intrusion in to American citizen's lives is are either unbelievably ignorant, simple or radical right wingers.
L.A. BRONCOS FAN
12-20-2005, 06:23 AM
People who don't realize how serious government intrusion in to American citizen's lives is are either unbelievably ignorant, simple or radical right wingers.
Yep.
The pinhead did the same kind of thing that forced Tricky Dick to resign so as to avoid impeachment.
You have to wonder if the pinhead's continued, flagrant disregard for the rule of law and the Constitution will ultimately force a showdown with his allies in the GOP-controlled congress as the latter take increasing heat for their failure to provide oversight.
ClevelandBronco2
12-20-2005, 08:12 AM
Thats ok , Hero worship dies hard ........
I understand Cleveland , Guys like you hate America ,I have suspected this for along time , you hate freedom , you much rather prefer a dictatorship , you can not handle an opposing point of view, And you have been known ,to go completely bat shít , when confronted with truth , about somthing Bad about your party ........You have even Neg reped me for asking another Member here , about the condition of his son, who is having a rough go of it , but Still fighting .....So it is no suprise , you dodge this story , and go right for a personal attack on me and LABF ...... In fact I expected this, from such a devote Christian like yourself ...... Even though you hate America and what this country Stands for
Merry Christmas Cleveland Bronco
Merry Christmas to you as well.
People who don't realize how serious government intrusion in to American citizen's lives is are either unbelievably ignorant, simple or radical right wingers.
Maybe even left-wingers like yourself will begin to realize it too - we libertarians have known this for decades.
Rigs11
12-20-2005, 09:58 AM
Maybe even left-wingers like yourself will begin to realize it too - we libertarians have known this for decades.
So how do you feel about this latest intrusion and Dubya saying he will continue to do it?Will you give him a free pass and say other presidents did it too?I'm curious.
So how do you feel about this latest intrusion and Dubya saying he will continue to do it?
SSDD.
The government has been spying on us, without warrants and without just cause, for decades. That Bush is using the NSA for some of that may be something new but I doubt that - I believe the NSA has been used to spy on American citizens before.
For you folks who are so irate today - where have you been? This crap has been going on for a loooong time.
Garcia Bronco
12-20-2005, 10:13 AM
I consider PETA a terrorist organization despite what the FBI says. And the Norfolk, Virginia office has been shutdown because they were commiting environmental damage by illegally dumping animals that PETA killed. Further more, their tatics of subversion and violent nature make them every much as dangerous as Islamic Fundamentalists.
defenseman
12-20-2005, 10:13 AM
I didn't know the ACLU is all of the sudden, the resident expert on terrorists and Operating procedures. Perhaps they could help find the bastards since they are so intelligent to second guess anything that comes out of washington. Let alone second guessing anything mildly conservative.......dman
*The ACLU will be the downfall of sections of society as we know it.
Garcia Bronco
12-20-2005, 10:15 AM
I didn't know the ACLU is all of the sudden, the resident expert on terrorists and Operating procedures. Perhaps they could help find the bastards since they are so intelligent to second guess anything that comes out of washington. Let alone second guessing anything mildly conservative.......dman
*The ACLU will be the downfall of sections of society as we know it.
As always...we agree.
Garcia Bronco
12-20-2005, 10:21 AM
Another thing call me when joe smoe gets busted for an OZ of dope off an illegal wire tap. Then you'll see my outrage. But if they got Al Capone for tax fraud on an illegal wire tap...I'm okay with it.
gunns
12-20-2005, 04:23 PM
SSDD.
The government has been spying on us, without warrants and without just cause, for decades. That Bush is using the NSA for some of that may be something new but I doubt that - I believe the NSA has been used to spy on American citizens before.
For you folks who are so irate today - where have you been? This crap has been going on for a loooong time.
A most presidents have been having illicit sex in the White House for decades, probably even a BJ although I can't say a cigar was used in every instance.
L.A. BRONCOS FAN
12-20-2005, 04:54 PM
The government has been spying on us, without warrants and without just cause, for decades. That Bush is using the NSA for some of that may be something new but I doubt that - I believe the NSA has been used to spy on American citizens before.
And you actually believe this "argument" should exonerate Bush in this instance?
Your continued defense of the bush crime family and your "two wrongs make a right" ethics are most disturbing.
Bronco_Beerslug
12-20-2005, 04:56 PM
I didn't know the ACLU is all of the sudden, the resident expert on terrorists and Operating procedures. Perhaps they could help find the bastards since they are so intelligent to second guess anything that comes out of washington. Let alone second guessing anything mildly conservative.......dman
*The ACLU will be the downfall of sections of society as we know it.
Totally wrong but I'm sure I can't change your mind. It is because of the ACLU that balances and checks remain on government and corporations. The ACLU protects every American's rights, including yours and mine and even Rush's.
Bronco_Beerslug
12-20-2005, 04:59 PM
SSDD.
The government has been spying on us, without warrants and without just cause, for decades. That Bush is using the NSA for some of that may be something new but I doubt that - I believe the NSA has been used to spy on American citizens before.
For you folks who are so irate today - where have you been? This crap has been going on for a loooong time.
Your filed response is really getting tiresome. No matter what the topic your answer is almost always someone else did too with no actual debate on the topic.
enjolras
12-20-2005, 05:02 PM
Totally wrong but I'm sure I can't change your mind. It is because of the ACLU that balances and checks remain on government and corporations. The ACLU protects every American's rights, including yours and mine and even Rush's.
The ACLU is an organization that exists solely to protect the constitution of the United States. That's something that is apparently very difficult to get behind.
The ACLU is not a policy making organization. They contribute legal aid to those who are having their constituational rights abused. Its rather difficult for me to see how they can be the downfall of anything... At the end of the day they merely make the argument or point out the abuse, it is up to the judiciary and/or public to make any changes.
enjolras
12-20-2005, 05:02 PM
Your filed response is really getting tiresome. No matter what the topic your answer is almost always someone else did too with no actual debate on the topic.
Worked for me when I was 8 :)
L.A. BRONCOS FAN
12-20-2005, 05:05 PM
Your filed response is really getting tiresome. No matter what the topic your answer is almost always someone else did too with no actual debate on the topic.
His specious "arguments" haven't fooled anyone hitherto - yet he seems to believe that if he just keeps it up then these "arguments" will eventually fool people somehow.
Talk about the definition of insanity. :pity:
L.A. BRONCOS FAN
12-20-2005, 05:06 PM
A most presidents have been having illicit sex in the White House for decades, probably even a BJ although I can't say a cigar was used in every instance.
rofl
^5
And you actually believe this "argument" should exonerate Bush in this instance?
Your interpretations of my comments are so colored by your fear and hatred of me that they're worthless.
Bush is merely the latest in a long line of Presidents, and other governmental scum, who have treated the Constitution as toilet paper when it suited their political goals. If you think he's the worst, or the most egregious, you're wrong - Bush's only unique claim in this regard is that he's the most recent.
Your continued defense of the bush crime family and your "two wrongs make a right" ethics are most disturbing.
Your understanding of ethics is pathetic, at best. A known liar, homophobe and racist lecturing anyone on ethics is laughable.
I'll leave the "two wrongs make a right" to you and your ilk - that's your standard rationalization.
L.A. BRONCOS FAN
12-20-2005, 05:25 PM
Just like clockwork....
The O'W*GS Factor to the bush crime family's rescue.
When Bush commits a crime, W*GS' job is to come on the OM and create a distraction.
"Move along, folks - nothing to see here."
"BTW, do you know what Clinton did?"
Your filed response is really getting tiresome. No matter what the topic your answer is almost always someone else did too with no actual debate on the topic.
Your current indignation at the latest raping of our rights by the State is most touching. Those of us who have been paying attention for more than the last few weeks aren't surprised any more, that's all.
My response is boilerplate because this sort of behavior from Bush is just the latest iteration of the destruction of our rights by the State. Do you have any proof otherwise?
When Bush commits a crime, W*GS' job is to come on the OM and create a distraction.
This from the resident tangent artist. Thanks for the irony.
We can always count on you to believe that Presidential criminality and trashing of our rights started when Bush took office. Your lack of knowledge of history is most disturbing, and your "wisdom" has been proven time and again to extend no further back than Jan 2001.
Spider
12-20-2005, 05:38 PM
Just wondering , Since Dahlmer , Ted Bundy , John Wayne Gacey , all committed Murder , would it be ok if I did the same ? after all others have done it also ......
L.A. BRONCOS FAN
12-20-2005, 05:41 PM
Can you just envision W*GS defending Bush at the impeachment trial?
"Yes, Senator, I am trying to argue that these articles should be dismissed because Clinton lied about a blowjob."
L.A. BRONCOS FAN
12-20-2005, 05:42 PM
Just wondering , Since Dahlmer , Ted Bundy , John Wayne Gacey , all committed Murder , would it be ok if I did the same ? after all others have done it also ......
If W*GS is consistent then he must answer "yes."
Sideburn
12-20-2005, 05:48 PM
Totally wrong but I'm sure I can't change your mind. It is because of the ACLU that balances and checks remain on government and corporations. The ACLU protects every American's rights, including yours and mine and even Rush's.
Not to say that the ACLU hasn't done good, but whose rights are being protected when the ACLU has chosen to represent NAMBLA?
Just wondering , Since Dahlmer , Ted Bundy , John Wayne Gacey , all committed Murder , would it be ok if I did the same ? after all others have done it also ......
Murder is always wrong.
A government official's violation of her oath to protect our Constitutional rights is also wrong. I can't think of a single recent President, offhand, that has truly acted by his oath of office. Can you?
If W*GS is consistent then he must answer "yes."
This from the guy whose claimed dislike of authoritarianism evaporates away when the dictator is a Leftist.
You're one of more ethically and politically inconsistent folks here, LABF.
Spider
12-20-2005, 06:00 PM
Murder is always wrong.
A government official's violation of her oath to protect our Constitutional rights is also wrong. I can't think of a single recent President, offhand, that has truly acted by his oath of office. Can you?
That wasnt the question ...... question was since others have done it , is it ok that I do it ?
L.A. BRONCOS FAN
12-20-2005, 06:04 PM
W*GS' "ethics:"
Tricky Dick was impeached and resigned but Bush should get a pass for the same crimes because "others have done it."
L.A. BRONCOS FAN
12-20-2005, 06:23 PM
A time to impeach
President Bush may find himself in deep trouble after ordering and defending illegal wiretaps of U.S. citizens -- a crime for which Richard Nixon was impeached.
http://direland.typepad.com/direland/2005/12/the.html
When the U.S. Senate last Friday refused to renew the liberticidal Patriot Act -- with its provisions for spying on Americans' use of libraries and the Internet, among other Constitution-shredding provisions of that iniquitous law -- it was in part because that morning's New York Times had revealed how Bush and his White House had committed a major crime.
By ordering the National Security Agency -- the N.S.A, so secretive that in Washington its initials are said to stand for "No Such Agency" -- to wiretap and eavesdrop on thousands of American citizens without a court order, Bush committed actions specifically forbidden by the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA). Passed in 1978 after the Senate's Church Committee documented in detail the Nixon administration's widespread use of U.S. intelligence agencies to spy on the anti-Vietnam war movement and other political dissidents, FISA "expressly made it a crime for government officials 'acting under color of law' to engage in electronic eavesdropping 'other than pursuant to statute.'", as the director of the Center for National Security Studies, Kate Martin, told the Washington Post this past weekend.
And the FISA statute required authorization of the secret Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court to make such domestic spying legal. Bush and his NSA sought no such authorization before invading American citizens' right to privacy -- a blatant flouting of the law that made both wavering Democrats and libertarian Republicans mad enough to vote against extending the hideous Patriot Act, which thankfully will now expire at the end of the year.
That wasnt the question ...... question was since others have done it , is it ok that I do it ?
Murder is certainly wrong, regardless of the actions of others.
But it would be dumb for you to murder one person and then for others to claim you were the first murderer, or the worst murderer to have ever existed.
W*GS' "ethics:"
Tricky Dick was impeached and resigned but Bush should get a pass for the same crimes because "others have done it."
Provide the URL of the post in which I approved of the use of the NSA to spy on Americans.
Thanks.
Some additional commentary:
http://hughhewitt.com/archives/2005/12/18-week/index.php#a000808
And
http://www.proteinwisdom.com/index.php/weblog/entry/19547/
Read the material and decide for yourself. Interesting comments all around, generally.
Bronco_Beerslug
12-21-2005, 05:33 AM
Some additional commentary:
http://hughhewitt.com/archives/2005/12/18-week/index.php#a000808
And
http://www.proteinwisdom.com/index.php/weblog/entry/19547/
Read the material and decide for yourself. Interesting comments all around, generally.
You got a thing for Carrot Top?
These quotes about and from Hewitt sum it up pretty well.
I think Hugh might be on board for a bit of martial law. Don't knock it til you try it, especially if the President asks us to trust him. And all that good stuff
and
Wow. Hewlitt is crazy. I wonder whether he is being paid by republicans to simply agree with the President. Abramoff paid that guy from the Cato institute. I think Hewlitt should disclose whether he is being paid for his "opinions."
I have to believe these are people of good faith who simply have no experience in the world, who simply have no idea what we are up against.
L.A. BRONCOS FAN
12-21-2005, 06:41 PM
Do Bush's actions justify impeachment?
MSNBC Poll
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10562904
So far:
Yes, between the secret spying, the deceptions leading to war and more, there is plenty to justify putting him on trial.
88%
No, like any president, he has made a few missteps, but nothing approaching "high crimes and misdemeanors."
3%
No, the man has done absolutely nothing wrong. Impeachment would just be a political lynching.
8%
I don't know.
1%
L.A. BRONCOS FAN
12-21-2005, 06:48 PM
Bush was so desperate to kill The NYTs eavesdropping story...
...he summoned the paper’s editor and publisher to the Oval Office. But it wasn’t just out of concern about national security.
I learned this week that on December 6, Bush summoned Times publisher Arthur Sulzberger and executive editor Bill Keller to the Oval Office in a futile attempt to talk them out of running the story. The Times will not comment on the meeting, but one can only imagine the president’s desperation.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10536559/site/newsweek
L.A. BRONCOS FAN
12-21-2005, 07:55 PM
Bush Asked N.Y.Times Not to Run Snooping Story
Times publisher Arthur Sulzberger and executive editor Bill Keller met with President Bush on December 6 to discuss the story about National Security Agency eavesdropping. Bush pleaded with the two men not to run the story. Bush's main concern was the story, which depicts him as law-breaker. The President was not at all concerned the disclosures would compromise national security. The story shows that Bush clearly authorized the N.S.A. to engage in illegal spying on Americans everywhere. The story proves Bush violated the 1978 Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10536559/site/newsweek/
Do Bush's actions justify impeachment?
MSNBC Poll
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10562904
So far:
Yes, between the secret spying, the deceptions leading to war and more, there is plenty to justify putting him on trial.
88%
No, like any president, he has made a few missteps, but nothing approaching "high crimes and misdemeanors."
3%
No, the man has done absolutely nothing wrong. Impeachment would just be a political lynching.
8%
I don't know.
1%
As always, you forgot the wee bit at the bottom of the results:
"Not a scientifically valid survey."
So, that (as usual) makes a complete hash of your post.
It's ironic that when a poll (scientific or not) has results that support your biases, you're as happy as can be, but when a poll (scientific or not) has results that oppose your biases, well, those in the majority are just plain stupid.
Your adherence to the populist approach to political ideology results in some serious doublethink.