The Christian Taliban and Ethnic Cleansing

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Have we finally become the dumbest mofos on the planet? What the 'Left Behind' books really mean

"Jesus merely raised one hand a few inches and a yawning chasm opened in the earth, stretching far and wide enough to swallow all of them. They tumbled in, howling and screeching, but their wailing was soon quashed and all was silent when the earth closed itself again."

- From Glorious Appearing by Tim LaHaye and Jerry B. Jenkins

"The best thing about the Left Behind books is the way the non-Christians get their guts pulled out by God."

- 15-year old fundamentalist fan of the Left Behind series

That is the sophisticated language and appeal of America's all-time best selling adult novels celebrating the ethnic cleansing of non-Christians at the hands of Christ. If a Muslim were to write an Islamic version of last book in the Left Behind series, Glorious Appearing, and publish it across the Middle East, Americans would go beserk. Yet tens of millions of Christians eagerly await and celebrate an End Time when everyone who disagrees with them will be murdered in ways that make Islamic beheading look like a bridal shower. Jesus -- who apparently has a much nastier streak than we have been led to believe -- merely speaks and "the bodies of the enemy are ripped wide open down the middle." In the book Christians have to drive carefully to avoid "hitting splayed and filleted corpses of men and women and horses" Even as the riders' tongues are melting in their mouths and they are being wide open gutted by God's own hand, the poor damned horses are getting the same treatment. Sort of a divinely inspired version of "F*ck you and the horse you rode in on."

Continued: http://www.smirkingchimp.com/article.php?sid=24094&mode=nested&order=0

[El Guapo]

read the bible, its not too far off from the scripture. If youre on the wrong side for armageddon, well.. it wont be pretty.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

read the bible, its not too far off from the scripture. If youre on the wrong side for armageddon, well.. it wont be pretty.

Speaking of Christian Taliban...

:D

[El Guapo]

speaking the truth, thats all..read the book of revelations, where it also points out that the world will totally be against christians and their ways. and YOU will be part of the anti-christian taliban.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

read the bible...

Read this:

http://www.buzzflash.com/premiums/05/11/images/god_200.jpg

God And Caesar in America: An Essay on Religion and Politics (Paperback)
by Former Senator Gary Hart

Former Colorado Senator Gary Hart has written the most compelling, cogent contemporary treatise for the separation of church and state in America that we have come across. Titled "God and Caesar in America: An Essay on Religion and Politics," Hart's work is in the tradition of Tom Paine.

This is a trenchant, earnest commentary that combines Hart's personal experience as a child raised in a Church of the Nazarene household (he attended a Nazarene College), his years as a Yale Divinity student, and his career as a Yale Law School educated attorney and elected politician. Although his faith-based upbringing combined with his years as a national leader in the Senate provide him with a unique perspective, it is the eloquent, impassioned analysis that Hart applies to the interjection of religion into politics that makes his short book so insightful.

Hart can move from analyzing the deplorable manner in which right wing ministers hold Jesus hostage to achieve their own selfish political goals to the historical factors behind the separation of church and state that were enshrined into our Constitution by our founding fathers. More importantly, Hart makes a moral and practical case as to why mixing religion with politics is detrimental to both.

"Our founders knew that we would be governed by fallible human beings," Hart concludes, "from among whom we would select our leaders. They did not believe that human fallibility in the political sphere would be corrected by opening the corridors of power to ministers, priests and rabbis. To the contrary, to turn over the reigns of government to religious leaders could lead to one of only two destructive consequences: we would become a theocratic principality familiar to old Europe or religion would be totally discredited and taken over by the state."

"Indeed, how can religious judgment all seem to be rendered against one political party?" Hart asks in a chapter called, "Beliefs, Values and Justice." "The 'values' employed are very partisan values. All this religious partisanship is a very short step away from preaching that Jesus was a member of one political party."

"This kind of political activity may encourage one party," Hart continues, "and its candidates, but it certainly does nothing to further the gospel of Jesus."

Indeed, in the original debates over the Constitution, one of the reasons religion was guaranteed the right to be free of the influence of politics -- and politics to be kept free of religion -- was that once a specific religious faction took control of politics, that religion itself would eventually become corrupted by the secular, practical concerns of the political sphere.

Hart convincingly argues that religious values, as seen by a member of any faith, should be practiced in deed in the public sphere, but that absolutist religious principles have no place in the political world of the American democracy.

Because of the absolutist nature of the religious right, we have seen less and less compromise in American politics. "This circumstance has been created in no small part by the introduction of absolutes, especially 'faith-based' absolutes, into a political system, where no single group gets everything that it demands, and often does not even get one thing it wants unblemished by compromise."

Hart is optimistic that the pendulum will swing back to the heritage of our Constitutional wisdom creating the separation of church and state: "Politicians hiding behind the robes of ministers, policy makers courting a vociferous religious element, adventurers cloaking foreign military ventures in the crusader's rhetoric, political manipulators cynically using public fears to turn out voters all will be swept back into our nation's nooks and crannies from whence they emerged. This must happen, because America cannot be governed otherwise."

"God and Caesar in America" is a profound and vitally important reflection on the danger to our democracy posed by religious fanatics who have seized control of our government. This is a must-read book for anyone concerned about the Mullah fundamentalists who have hijacked this nation.

http://www.buzzflash.com/premiums/05/11/pre05168.html

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

speaking the truth, thats all..

More like your interpretation of some scriptures.

[El Guapo]

More like your interpretation of some scriptures.


and your interpretations on someone elses interpretations are the correct answer?

[El Guapo]

speaking the truth, thats all..read the book of revelations, where it also points out that the world will totally be against christians and their ways. and YOU will be part of the anti-christian taliban.


read it.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

and your interpretations on someone elses interpretations are the correct answer?

There is no single "correct" interpretation of religious symbolism.

If two different people view the same mountain from different sides, you're going to get two different perspectives and two different descriptions of the same mountain.

It doesn't follow that one perception is right and one is wrong.

[bronco_diesel]

There is no single "correct" interpretation of religious symbolism.

If two different people view the same mountain from different sides, you're going to get two different perspectives and two different descriptions of the same mountain.

It doesn't follow that one perception is right and one is wrong.

just read the bible - and study it. the bible interprets itself...it's pretty easy really...

[Mile High Shack]

just read the bible - and study it. the bible interprets itself...it's pretty easy really...

quoted for truth

[Rascal]

Welcome to my ignore list LABF.

You use to have class.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Welcome to my ignore list LABF.

You use to have class.

For you, "class" apparently = "doesn't confront me with inconvenient facts or uncomfortable realities."

:pity:

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

just read the bible - and study it. the bible interprets itself...it's pretty easy really...

I suppose it's easier and more comfortable for you to tell yourself that there is some "one size fits all" approach to truth, but that sure ain't the road Jesus (a reformer and a liberal) or Buddha took, by all accounts.

BTW, how does your statement address the article at the top of this thread?

[defenseman]

Healthy confrontation is good. Chaoitic is not. Each should find their own way and NOT try to force their thoughts on others. The "extremists" and "fanatical" on each side, not matter which, is dead wrong and should stand down. Religious beliefs are truley very personal. And should stay so as far as I'm concerned. I will say though, I feel the majority of "christianity" across the world has taken a real hit with respect to being told what they can and cannot do by the courts due to some people not keeping their beliefs to themselves. What one has a right to protest...the other has a right to display. My thinking is, if one doesn't like what they are looking at or listening too, then close your eyes or ears. It's a simple solution, rather than selfishly making everyone in the country who desires to enjoy the sounds or sights be without, those who oppose the sounds or sights need to just walk away. The courts really don't belong in this fray, a true waste of tax payer dollars....dman

*the ACLU will be the downfall of all that is good.

[TheDave]

Lets see....

6.5 billion people in the world.... figure 2 billion christian types.... come armegeddon god needs to pull out 4.5 billion guts.... average intestional track is 22 feet long X 4.5 billion... Damn that alot of guts


Here's to me being part of one long ass gut chain....:devil:

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Healthy confrontation is good. Chaoitic is not. Each should find their own way and NOT try to force their thoughts on others. The "extremists" and "fanatical" on each side, not matter which, is dead wrong and should stand down. Religious beliefs are truley very personal. And should stay so as far as I'm concerned.

Just when I didn't think it was possible that I'd ever agree with you about anything...

:D

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Lets see....

6.5 billion people in the world.... figure 2 billion christian types.... come armegeddon god needs to pull out 4.5 billion guts.... average intestional track is 22 feet long X 4.5 billion... Damn that alot of guts


Here's to me being part of one long ass gut chain....:devil:

LOL

Where's my "Extreme Jesus" 'toon when I need it?

[Mile High Shack]

Lets see....

6.5 billion people in the world.... figure 2 billion christian types.... come armegeddon god needs to pull out 4.5 billion guts.... average intestional track is 22 feet long X 4.5 billion... Damn that alot of guts


Here's to me being part of one long ass gut chain....:devil:

those left behind books are stupid anyway

there is no such thing as a final battle going to happen

I've been over this before, but since the 1800's the theory of armageddon and the final battle really took off, it has no basis in scripture

anyway......

[Rascal]

They are just a novel similar to devinci code.

[defenseman]

LABF, you would probably be surprised at how similar points of view can be when the "point of view" is addressed wrt the impact to one's self, vice society as a whole......dman

[enjolras]

those left behind books are stupid anyway

there is no such thing as a final battle going to happen

I've been over this before, but since the 1800's the theory of armageddon and the final battle really took off, it has no basis in scripture

anyway......


Rep:)

Its so nice that someone recognizes that LARGE parts of modern christian dogma was literally invented in the 19th century (try to find a reference to the rapture before that, you won't).

[Mile High Shack]

Rep:)

Its so nice that someone recognizes that LARGE parts of modern christian dogma was literally invented in the 19th century (try to find a reference to the rapture before that, you won't).

I forget the preacher that invented it in the 1800's but you are right

no such thing as the rapture mentioned before then

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Quotes

"People like to examine the things that frighten them; to look at them and give them names. So saints look for God and scientists look for evidence. They're both just trying to take away the mystery; to take away the fear."

- Allie, from "Taken"

[TheDave]

those left behind books are stupid anyway

there is no such thing as a final battle going to happen

I've been over this before, but since the 1800's the theory of armageddon and the final battle really took off, it has no basis in scripture

anyway......

So there is still hope for me...

You guys (rascal & MHS) have to admit there is a growing segment of Evangelicals that are...well... They are out there...Way out there. Even from the responses in this thread it seems some believe this (gut yanking theory) to be true... JMO, but it is stuff like this that makes me really hate organized religion :brokehalo

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

So there is still hope for me...

You guys (rascal & MHS) have to admit there is a growing segment of Evangelicals that are...well... They are out there...Way out there. Even from the responses in this thread it seems some believe this (gut yanking theory) to be true... JMO, but it is stuff like this that makes me really hate organized religion :brokehalo

The thing I found most disturbing about the article was the sentiment expressed by that 15 year-old kid.

The idea that kids are being indoctrinated with this sort of perverted interpretation of Christ's teachings is pretty scary.

[Spider]

Let it be noted ........2 pages and I have not said 1 thing either way ........This will be on a test later .........not that there is anything wrong with that ;D

[defenseman]

"Hate" truley is a very strong word. It solicits a very negative response and can lead to nothing good. That said, Hitler and Mao Tsao Tung (spelled correct I think) deserved to be hated I believe. And punished accordingly I'll agree.....just an observation....dman

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Let it be noted ........2 pages and I have not said 1 thing either way ......

...which must have required a truly Herculean exercise in self-restraint on your part, no doubt. ;) ;D

[TheDave]

The thing I found most disturbing about the article was the sentiment expressed by that 15 year-old kid.

The idea that kids are being indoctrinated with this sort of perverted interpretation of Christ's teachings is pretty scary.

I agree, especially when shack and rascal say that they are just novels.

Just food for thought... how popular are these "novels" if we replace the word "non-Christian" with black (or any race)? Seriously, I'm not trying to pull the race card, and i sure as hell don't want some 10+ page race debate... but how is this novel accepted if it says that everyone other than "white's" will be drawn and quartered by the all mighty, come D-Day.

Just trying to give some insight to how this sounds to a non-believer. From my POV this is why there is friction between myself and Christians some times.

[TheDave]

Let it be noted ........2 pages and I have not said 1 thing either way ........This will be on a test later .........not that there is anything wrong with that ;D

Pusss... Let loose Bro...Let Loose:poke:

[Spider]

Pusss... Let loose Bro...Let Loose:poke:
Right now I have to go up to the Shop and check on the progress of my engine ...... Battle plan is pester the shít out of these guys so they hurry up and do my Engine to get rid of me ..............

[alkemical]

I don't get the whole 'christians being persecuted' thing. I used to be a christian and i see how things like the nativity scene not being allowed to be displayed in public on gov't funded buildings could seem bad, but as long as it's an all or none deal I don't understand the issue.

I mean in Amercia, where really is the persecution? Are there still churches? Are christians having to huddle in basements and use codewords for their meetings/prayers?

If it's media persecution, get over it. Don't be so insecure over your own belief if it's in a movie or on the news.....

Now, onto the culture aspect of a novel series pushing an extreme view of christianity. Dave makes a point about changing non christian to any other 'group' and it would sound pretty bad. I do see the rise in fundamentalist behaviour from the christian side. It's a reaction though. But most of it comes down to filling that hole that causes all the insecurities in a man or a woman. It's that crutch.

I have my own spiritual path, and i will be the first to say that it does fill some need and gives some structure for me personally. But i don't wish to push it on anyone, or really share it with anyone. it's a really private thing.

[RaiderH8r]

Speaking of Christian Taliban...

:D
You can join the long list of whackos over interpreting a book to fit their own agenda. Hop on board with the douche bags griping that Harry Potter is the Debil. Same whore, different dress. And the short list of folks griping that the Adventures of Huck Finn is an abomination because they interpret the relationship between Huck and Jim as a homosexual one. IT'S A FVCKING BOOK PEOPLE!! Don't like it, don't read it.

[defenseman]

Don't pull or pull, keep it to yourself, that is my motto also.......I could care what anyone else religiously pursues (unless it is very radical and extremist and could threaten my families safety, at which point I would blow their freakin head off)...dman

[RaiderH8r]

I agree, especially when shack and rascal say that they are just novels.

Just food for thought... how popular are these "novels" if we replace the word "non-Christian" with black (or any race)? Seriously, I'm not trying to pull the race card, and i sure as hell don't want some 10+ page race debate... but how is this novel accepted if it says that everyone other than "white's" will be drawn and quartered by the all mighty, come D-Day.

Just trying to give some insight to how this sounds to a non-believer. From my POV this is why there is friction between myself and Christians some times.
And IF your aunt had testicles she'd be your uncle. See how "if" changes the entire meaning of a thing? How popular is Farrakhan? And he blatantly hates white people. Anyway, it's all funny and such. Why worry about these yahoos, they're too hobbled by their psychology to wander too far away from the ministry. And besides, we've got the PATRIOT ACT to protect us from them. :~ohyah!:

[TheDave]

And IF your aunt had testicles she'd be your uncle. See how "if" changes the entire meaning of a thing? How popular is Farrakhan? And he blatantly hates white people. Anyway, it's all funny and such. Why worry about these yahoos, they're too hobbled by their psychology to wander too far away from the ministry. And besides, we've got the PATRIOT ACT to protect us from them. :~ohyah!:

"That is the sophisticated language and appeal of America's all-time best selling adult novels celebrating the ethnic cleansing of non-Christians at the hands of Christ."

that tells me this line of thinking is a little more widespread than just some yahoos that strayed from the pack...and a hell of alot more than Farrakhan and his band of idiots

[RaiderH8r]

"That is the sophisticated language and appeal of America's all-time best selling adult novels celebrating the ethnic cleansing of non-Christians at the hands of Christ."

that tells me this line of thinking is a little more widespread than just some yahoos...
But are they acting on it? No, and not likely as their books tell them to sit back, wait, and God will do the rest. Rapture will come, you'll be rewarded. Now, there was this little quote just after yours:

"If a Muslim were to write an Islamic version of last book in the Left Behind series..."

They have written an Islamic version supporting the same thing being decried here, it's called the Qu'Ran. It actively advocates followers of Islam to eliminate non-believers. Practitioners of Islam have actively engaged in this endeavor since the religion's inception and that activity continues today. I just found the follow up sentence amusing since the author clearly tips his hand and shows his bias.

Now, understanding that, there's probably a nugget of truth to assertion that some Christians belive in this ethnic cleansing tripe and a whoooolllle lot just like the books. And until active participation in violent efforts to act on the principles outlined in the article by Christians I will stand by my position that there are probably a few yahoos (there always are) and a whole lot of other folks who like the books. Same goes for Islam, couple of yahoos, whole lotta folks who like the book.

As I said earlier, the author of this article is of the same ilk who would burn Huck Finn, Harry Potter, and many more. Different sides of the same solution.

[bronco_diesel]

I forget the preacher that invented it in the 1800's but you are right

no such thing as the rapture mentioned before then

shaq, i would be willing to debate this with you :)

[TheDave]

But are they acting on it? No, and not likely as their books tell them to sit back, wait, and God will do the rest. Rapture will come, you'll be rewarded. Now, there was this little quote just after yours:

"If a Muslim were to write an Islamic version of last book in the Left Behind series..."

They have written an Islamic version supporting the same thing being decried here, it's called the Qu'Ran. It actively advocates followers of Islam to eliminate non-believers. Practitioners of Islam have actively engaged in this endeavor since the religion's inception and that activity continues today. I just found the follow up sentence amusing since the author clearly tips his hand and shows his bias.

Now, understanding that, there's probably a nugget of truth to assertion that some Christians belive in this ethnic cleansing tripe and a whoooolllle lot just like the books. And until active participation in violent efforts to act on the principles outlined in the article by Christians I will stand by my position that there are probably a few yahoos (there always are) and a whole lot of other folks who like the books. Same goes for Islam, couple of yahoos, whole lotta folks who like the book.

As I said earlier, the author of this article is of the same ilk who would burn Huck Finn, Harry Potter, and many more. Different sides of the same solution.

Boss, I'm not worried about them strapping bombs to their chests, or seeking out and killing us non-believers. I'm alot more worried about their ability to vote, and having to deal with this level of stupidity in my science class, and community as a whole. Keep in mind this is the same group that is leading the pack against gay rights and working overtime to snuff out science in our schools. You and i just have a different opinion on it. You look at it as harmless... I see it as a growing concern, that could become a major problem. Time will tell...

[defenseman]

i don't see them wiping out science. I'm a nuke engineer, and have some pretty firm religious beliefs. However, your talking about a very tiny segment from what I can see. As far as stupidity, i believe in %'s of every type cast you can think of , no matter what, are going to be clueless no matter what you do. Those that aren't clueless normally win, i wouldn't get to worried about it...dman

[RaiderH8r]

Boss, I'm not worried about them strapping bombs to their chests, or seeking out and killing us non-believers. I'm alot more worried about their ability to vote, and having to deal with this level of stupidity in my science class, and community as a whole. Keep in mind this is the same group that is leading the pack against gay rights and working overtime to snuff out science in our schools. You and i just have a different opinion on it. You look at it as harmless... I see it as a growing concern, that could become a major problem. Time will tell...
Not necessarily harmless, but they're giving push back after being marginalized and made a mockery of. They're going to assert themselves. They're also free to exercise their rights as Americans to speak out against gay rights and voice concerns about the direction of public education. I don't agree with them, but freedom of speech means just that...including morons. I also include fringe enviros as religious whackos. Too many traits in common to be coincidence. A religion is a religion. And the techniques being used to marginalize gays and science are the same ones enviros, peace activists, and PETA have made popular. I don't like it when any of them do it. I hate protestors. The upside is the creamy middle will begin to feel as though they're no longer heard and rise up themselves and things will again even out.

"I want it all Marge. The dizzying heights, the crushing lows, and the creamy middles. Mmmmallllghhh....creamy....."

[ClevelandBronco2]

JMO, but it is stuff like this that makes me really hate organized religion

You ought to be a Christian then. We're anything but organized.

Catholics, Lutherans, Episcopalians, Baptists, Methodists, (Have a seat. We could be here a while.)...

[TheDave]

You ought to be a Christian then. We're anything but organized.

Catholics, Lutherans, Episcopalians, Baptists, Methodists, (Have a seat. We could be here a while.)...

don't sell yourself short, you guys are VERY organized :thumbs:

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

You can join the long list of whackos over interpreting a book to fit their own agenda.

You're already on the long list of right-wing rubes who struggle with reading comprehension.

[ClevelandBronco2]

don't sell yourself short, you guys are VERY organized :thumbs:

Not nearly as much as the teachers' union's hold on local school board seats and Democratic Party.

Retiring at 75% of the average of the best three years of your career for the rest of your life in a defined benefit program? That's evidence of the kind of organization we can only dream of.

[epicSocialism4tw]

I havent read the Left Behind series, but I do know that the topic of the rapture and all of the surrounding events of Jesus' eventual return are subject to various interpretations. What I believe is really irrelevant, but it is important to remember in the case of these books is that the authors have every right under the constitution to print their fiction. It has proved very popular because it provides creative ideas concerning what it might be like to live during that period. They are fiction novels like Mitch Albom's "Five People You Meet in Heaven" or Dante's "Inferno" that describe (based loosely on what information is known from scripture) what a given unknown situation may ultimately be like.

It really is useless to blanket the entire protestant or catholic or orthodox world with some of the responses like the one of the child posted earlier. That teenager is a classic example of a child that has been exposed to extreme violence in the public domain. Braveheart, Lord of the Rings, Doom, Saving Private Ryan, etc. all show shocking violence. It's unfortunate that our modern readers and entertainees expect a certain level of shocking destruction to be satisfied. It seems as though the writers of the Left Behind series could have followed the model that has become popular.

Christians like myself do expect that we will ultimately be unjustly shoved into major discrimination and cruelty in every arena of public life. Jesus said so himself, so in turn, we that believe in him and have learned to trust what he has said expect it to become a realized truth in our dominion on earth. We expect Jesus to return and to save us from the unjust cruelty received at the hands of those that hate us without regard for our families and our way of life.

Just for the information of some of you who may not be privy to the modern general American Christian thinking, American Christians see their world being taken apart by ill-willed opposition. Christians are beginning to have to remove their families from the public en masse. It all starts with the school systems where their philosophy has been flagged as "illegal" in schools. That is just the first step in what is a very calculated and deliberate removal of the Christian from America. What becomes of the next generation of children who grow up learning from teachers that they view as infallible and omniscient who tell Christian kids to take their Bible to the principal's office? They learn that Christians are bad. Then they grow up. They make policy decisions as adults, they make movies, they grant jobs, write tax law, etc. and they push Christianity into the dump by discriminating against it. Hello Jim Crow.

Unlike our worldy counterparts, we Christians have a hope. We believe in our hope because it was established in the creation of the universe. It is more reliable than Newton. More just than anything the world has ever known. It is untouched by bombs, unmoved by solar flares. It is more tangible than the matter in your keyboard. It is the hope that when the masses march against us, that we will have a deliverer. He will come riding on the clouds to save us from the unjust tyrants. He will deal a blow to all mankind and establish a world where corruption doesnt rule, thievery is not rewarded, sexual deviancy is not valued, gluttony is not the goal of life, hedonism isnt praised, and cruelty is not rewarded. He will establish a new world where righteousness and goodness permeate society. A world where people can look each other in the eye without apprehension or fear. Where people can love one another without pretense.

[alkemical]

actually i sort of believe that earth is the hevean/hell - it's up to man to make the former or latter to happen....

[bronco_diesel]

actually i sort of believe that earth is the hevean/hell - it's up to man to make the former or latter to happen....

then you must have very little hope for our future.

[bronco_diesel]

I havent read the Left Behind series, but I do know that the topic of the rapture and all of the surrounding events of Jesus' eventual return are subject to various interpretations. What I believe is really irrelevant, but it is important to remember in the case of these books is that the authors have every right under the constitution to print their fiction. It has proved very popular because it provides creative ideas concerning what it might be like to live during that period. They are fiction novels like Mitch Albom's "Five People You Meet in Heaven" or Dante's "Inferno" that describe (based loosely on what information is known from scripture) what a given unknown situation may ultimately be like.

It really is useless to blanket the entire protestant or catholic or orthodox world with some of the responses like the one of the child posted earlier. That teenager is a classic example of a child that has been exposed to extreme violence in the public domain. Braveheart, Lord of the Rings, Doom, Saving Private Ryan, etc. all show shocking violence. It's unfortunate that our modern readers and entertainees expect a certain level of shocking destruction to be satisfied. It seems as though the writers of the Left Behind series could have followed the model that has become popular.

Christians like myself do expect that we will ultimately be unjustly shoved into major discrimination and cruelty in every arena of public life. Jesus said so himself, so in turn, we that believe in him and have learned to trust what he has said expect it to become a realized truth in our dominion on earth. We expect Jesus to return and to save us from the unjust cruelty received at the hands of those that hate us without regard for our families and our way of life.

Just for the information of some of you who may not be privy to the modern general American Christian thinking, American Christians see their world being taken apart by ill-willed opposition. Christians are beginning to have to remove their families from the public en masse. It all starts with the school systems where their philosophy has been flagged as "illegal" in schools. That is just the first step in what is a very calculated and deliberate removal of the Christian from America. What becomes of the next generation of children who grow up learning from teachers that they view as infallible and omniscient who tell Christian kids to take their Bible to the principal's office? They learn that Christians are bad. Then they grow up. They make policy decisions as adults, they make movies, they grant jobs, write tax law, etc. and they push Christianity into the dump by discriminating against it. Hello Jim Crow.

Unlike our worldy counterparts, we Christians have a hope. We believe in our hope because it was established in the creation of the universe. It is more reliable than Newton. More just than anything the world has ever known. It is untouched by bombs, unmoved by solar flares. It is more tangible than the matter in your keyboard. It is the hope that when the masses march against us, that we will have a deliverer. He will come riding on the clouds to save us from the unjust tyrants. He will deal a blow to all mankind and establish a world where corruption doesnt rule, thievery is not rewarded, sexual deviancy is not valued, gluttony is not the goal of life, hedonism isnt praised, and cruelty is not rewarded. He will establish a new world where righteousness and goodness permeate society. A world where people can look each other in the eye without apprehension or fear. Where people can love one another without pretense.

very well said.

[alkemical]

then you must have very little hope for our future.


quite the opposite really.

It's more optimistic than the doom and gloom, and the dogma that man is failed and only in death has he then found redemption.

[enjolras]

Where people can love one another without pretense.

Unless of course your into sexual deviancy.. or gay. Those we can't love.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Unless of course your into sexual deviancy.. or gay. Those we can't love.

I'm sorry, but that is a misinterpretation. Jesus taught unconditional and eternally forgiving love.

[enjolras]

Just for the information of some of you who may not be privy to the modern general American Christian thinking, American Christians see their world being taken apart by ill-willed opposition. Christians are beginning to have to remove their families from the public en masse. It all starts with the school systems where their philosophy has been flagged as "illegal" in schools. That is just the first step in what is a very calculated and deliberate removal of the Christian from America. What becomes of the next generation of children who grow up learning from teachers that they view as infallible and omniscient who tell Christian kids to take their Bible to the principal's office? They learn that Christians are bad. Then they grow up. They make policy decisions as adults, they make movies, they grant jobs, write tax law, etc. and they push Christianity into the dump by discriminating against it. Hello Jim Crow.

While we're at it.

Christians are removing their families en masse not because they aren't welcome in the community, but because they refuse to be part of a community that they can't indoctrinate. I'm not sure who is turning the wheel on the very 'calculate and deliberate' removal of the Christian from America... because from where I'm sitting it looks like Christians are asserting more and more control over this country every day. From our evangelical leader (god told me...) to the attacks on 'happy holidays' it seems to me that Christians are quite willingly isolating themselves.

That's the funny thing about prophecy. So often they are self-fulfilling. It seems that general American Christian thinking is so based on the concept of mass Christian persecution that you seek any all chances to BE persecuted.

Christianity is no more 'illegal' in school than any other religion. A child can pray during reccess. The flag-pole thing is still alive and well. Just because schools can't openly endorse any particular religion does not mean that Christians are being persecuted after all.

No.. it seems to me that Christians are removing themselves from society of their own volition. Christians love to wax poetic about how society has fallen. How our values are under attack. How the family is dead. Yet the only thing that has really happened is that a great many groups, long opressed, are now making their voices heard. Culture has evolved beyond the limits of Christian teachings and that somehow makes the Christians opressed?

Again.. if you REALLY want to feel opressed try being gay and getting married.

[enjolras]

I'm sorry, but that is a misinterpretation. Jesus taught unconditional and eternally forgiving love.

It seems to me that what Jesus taught and what Christians practice really are different things then.

[epicSocialism4tw]

No.. it seems to me that Christians are removing themselves from society of their own volition. Christians love to wax poetic about how society has fallen. How our values are under attack. How the family is dead. Yet the only thing that has really happened is that a great many groups, long opressed, are now making their voices heard. Culture has evolved beyond the limits of Christian teachings and that somehow makes the Christians opressed?


A great many groups long oppressed by Christians? Your argument is for small portions of society whose desires were snuffed out due to minority status.

With Christians we are talking about a deliberate and intentional removal from the shared public domain. Those are two different things entirely. Christians represent a majority in the public. It is a power grab through the courts to attempt to push us out of the public domain because small pockets of citizenry dont like the religious influence on the people of America. That's bigotry. Call if what you will, but it is blatant discrimination to grant minority rights over majority rights. You know that a democracy isnt working when that happens. You also know that discrimination is happening when even Christian schools have to adopt their curriculum to include secularist ideas so that they can get accredited, while schools with blatant secularist curriculum get a free pass. Discrimination is happening now. There is no doubt about that. We expect it to only get worse (which has been happening since the 60's) so we are entering the political process to maintain our right to spend the tax dollars that we pay in a way that we see fit. What's wrong with that? Nothing unless you hate Christians.

[alkemical]

Then i want hermetic and thelmic law taught in schools.

[enjolras]

A great many groups long oppressed by Christians? Your argument is for small portions of society whose desires were snuffed out due to minority status.

Where did I say 'long opressed by Christians' exactly? Amazingly, the exact mentality I talked about in my post is in play here. I MUST be bashing Christians, when in fact I said no such thing.

With Christians we are talking about a deliberate and intentional removal from the shared public domain. Those are two different things entirely. Christians represent a majority in the public. It is a power grab through the courts to attempt to push us out of the public domain because small pockets of citizenry dont like the religious influence on the people of America. That's bigotry. Call if what you will, but it is blatant discrimination to grant minority rights over majority rights.

No, its the American system of government. There is no guarantee of majority rule in the American constitution. Our founding fathers wrote at length about 'majority rule restrained by minority rights.' Just because you represent a majority does not mean that you are entitled to trample on the rights of the minority. We have, as a founding principle, the seperation of church and state. Its an important principle that has been essential in allowing America to develop as a free country, rather than a de-facto theocracy simply because the majority of its citizens belong to one religion.

You know that a democracy isnt working when that happens.

Or its working exactly as intended (as in this case). Gotta love our crafty forefathers.

You also know that discrimination is happening when even Christian schools have to adopt their curriculum to include secularist ideas so that they can get accredited, while schools with blatant secularist curriculum get a free pass.

No, schools are required to teach to a base line of academic standards. Secular schools are held to the exact same standards, just because religion doesn't get in their way doesn't mean they "get a free pass." If I wanted to start a school dedicated to nothing but playing scrabble, I would hardly expect to be accredited.

Discrimination is happening now. There is no doubt about that. We expect it to only get worse (which has been happening since the 60's) so we are entering the political process to maintain our right to spend the tax dollars that we pay in a way that we see fit. What's wrong with that? Nothing unless you hate Christians.

And your clearly willing to compromise the fundamental tenents of American government to do it.

[TheDave]

Not nearly as much as the teachers' union's hold on local school board seats and Democratic Party.

Retiring at 75% of the average of the best three years of your career for the rest of your life in a defined benefit program? That's evidence of the kind of organization we can only dream of.

Not sure what your getting at...

Christians are organized = Teachers have a good retirement program ???

by the way, if i'm reading what you said correctly. here are a couple of corrections:

Colorados teachers union is TERRIBLE... less than 20% of local educators even belong to it.

75% pension isn't even close it's more like 20% + what ever you paid into it over your career. In addition your not even vested until after 25 years in the same district ...

[Spider]

Not sure what your getting at...

Christians are organized = Teachers have a good retirement program ???

by the way, if i'm reading what you said correctly. here are a couple of corrections:

Colorados teachers union is TERRIBLE... less than 20% of local educators even belong to it.

75% pension isn't even close it's more like 20% + what ever you paid into it over your career. In addition your not even vested until after 25 years in the same district ...
Oh you guys make all the money , then fill our kids heads with Crap like Texas and Utah are part of the USA ;D

[TheDave]

Oh you guys make all the money , then fill our kids heads with Crap like Texas and Utah are part of the USA ;D

I'll plead guilty to including Texas, but in no way, shape, or form have i ever included Utah as a member of the union :laugh:

[Spider]

I'll plead guilty to including Texas, but in no way, shape, or form have i ever included Utah as a member of the union :laugh:
Ha! . ok you are forgiven

[RaiderH8r]

Oh you guys make all the money , then fill our kids heads with Crap like Texas and Utah are part of the USA ;D
I have a simple solution to school funding. Mandatory classroom expenditures. Force school districts to cut out paper shufflers. 50 cents of every dollar spent at Dept. of Ed ends up in the class room. Two different checks, if you will. This is for your admin cost, this is for your class costs. Currently around 90 cents of every dollar is used on admin costs. WTF?

Can we give Mass. back to the British while we're at it?

[Spider]

I have a simple solution to school funding. Mandatory classroom expenditures. Force school districts to cut out paper shufflers. 50 cents of every dollar spent at Dept. of Ed ends up in the class room. Two different checks, if you will. This is for your admin cost, this is for your class costs. Currently around 90 cents of every dollar is used on admin costs. WTF?

Can we give Mass. back to the British while we're at it?
if we can keep Maine ...... I like Maine .......

[TheDave]

I have a simple solution to school funding. Mandatory classroom expenditures. Force school districts to cut out paper shufflers. 50 cents of every dollar spent at Dept. of Ed ends up in the class room. Two different checks, if you will. This is for your admin cost, this is for your class costs. Currently around 90 cents of every dollar is used on admin costs. WTF?

Can we give Mass. back to the British while we're at it?

If it was that simple, don't you think someone would of fixed that by now...

Here is a great link that shows where the money is going

http://www.naesp.org/ContentLoad.do?contentId=1007

Here are a couple of graphs from that site...sorry they are so small

#1 Personnel Employed in Public School Districts,

[TheDave]

#2 Average Allocation of 2001-02
School District Operating Budgets

[enjolras]

We have to keep Mass. for awhile at least.. need to get our money out of that damn hole they dug in the ground.

Now if wanted to sell the Red Sox.. that'd be fine by me.

[epicSocialism4tw]

No, schools are required to teach to a base line of academic standards. Secular schools are held to the exact same standards, just because religion doesn't get in their way doesn't mean they "get a free pass." If I wanted to start a school dedicated to nothing but playing scrabble, I would hardly expect to be accredited.


The "base line" of academic standards only serves the educational interests of the beurocratic academics in regional accrediting organizations, who through selective hiring have given the reigns over to extremely liberal leadership. You accept too quickly in faith that these groups operate on a high standard of intellectual integrity. When I get back into town and have some more time, I'll give you some examples of general arts curriculum that is accepted for accredited degrees. I know that Bible study courses from accredited universities are rarely accepted towards state school degrees, while humanities courses that promote the gay and lesbian agenda are accepted without much opposition. There is something wrong with that and if you cant see it, you arent looking. You are dealing with a marketplace of ideas, and the state educators (sanctioned and operated by state governments) are implicitly promoting a human secularist agenda and pushing aside Christian Education.

I went to both a state college and a private Christian college, and I can tell you from experience that the private school was vastly superior in academic rigor, professionalism, academic integrity, and churns out a great number of successes. The standard of achievement is higher there and so is the intellectual standard. In my genetics course there, we were forced to design and execute a Mendelian experiment during the semester. With the same curriculum in the state school, we were given a handbook on how the same experiment is done, what the procedures are, how the paper is written, etc. They are not even comparable. In a sophomore ecology class, we were made to present a thorough scientific paper in a presentation form to the rest of the science school.

With all of that said, the performance standard at many Christian private schools is outstanding. To deny those schools the same transfer rights as their secular counterparts is illogical and stinks of back-door politicking.

[TheDave]

Judging by the few science discussions i've had with you, I'm not sure either schools teaching method worked ;)

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I'm sorry, but that is a misinterpretation. Jesus taught unconditional and eternally forgiving love.

Yes, he did.

However, you'd never know it if you listened to most of his self-proclaimed representatives and followers here on earth.

[No1BroncoFan]

I'll plead guilty to including Texas, but in no way, shape, or form have i ever included Utah as a member of the union :laugh:
Dammit! I want my parents property tax back! All through school they kept telling me that Utah was part of the union. I've been misled! ;D

Ben