Top 5 Reasons You Can't Blame Ernest Byner...

[Bronco LB 59]

ESPN Classic will air "Top 5 Reasons You Can't Blame Ernest Byner for losing the 1987 AFC Championship Game" at 7:00 MST next Tuesday, December 13.

What will be the top 5 reasons? Anybody want to take a crack at it?

-John Elway for his forgotten 4th quarter, time consuming drive
-Marty Schottenheimer for his history of playoff futility
-Browns' 1st half woes led to a 21-3 halftime deficit
-Jeremiah Castille

Any others?

[Bronco Vixen]

because theres no reason the great bernie kosar couldnt have flawlessly executed a winning drive in 13 seconds, particulary under the leadership of one of the greatest playoff masterminds to coach the game

[BroncoBuff]

ESPN Classic will air "Top 5 Reasons You Can't Blame Ernest Byner for losing the 1987 AFC Championship Game" at 7:00 MST next Tuesday, December 13.

What will be the top 5 reasons? Anybody want to take a crack at it?

Thanks for the "head's up" on the show . . . I can't wait.

I don't know what the reasons will be, but Castille's helmet made perfect contact with the ball, as I recall . . . that'll be one.

As for the rest . . . man, I don't know how Byner gets off the hook. That fumble was the whole ballgame, right there. The WIN/LOSE difference-maker, no doubt. BYNER HOLD ON TO THE BALL - BROWNS WIN.
Don't know how he'll get off the hook.

___________________

Hey - is it just me, or do the Browns have an inordinate number of "Top 5 Reasons" why they shouldn't be blamed for something? Modell "for moving" was one.

[Lidderer]

this moment had the most negative emotional impact on my young 8 year old self.

what strange irony that i'm now a bronco fan. a weird sort've stockholm syndrome.

[Bronco LB 59]

Hey - is it just me, or do the Browns have an inordinate number of "Top 5 Reasons" why they shouldn't be blamed for something? Modell "for moving" was one.

Browns have become the team we should all feel sorry for. They are the Cubs of the NFL to a lesser extent. They haven't won a conference championship in the Super Bowl era. Other than the Dodgers leaving Brooklyn, Modell packing ship caused more uproar than any franchise move in sports history.

Even though Denver won the AFC Championships those years, Cleveland has so much love for Bernie Kosar and those Browns squads that you wouldn't even know they lost those games. The late 80s Browns teams are probably more romanticized than any other football team that failed to make it to the Super Bowl.

[Rocket 7]

It wouldn't of even been a game if Byner didn't play the game he did. To even blame it on Byner is stupid.

[Bronco LB 59]

It wouldn't of even been a game if Byner didn't play the game he did. To even blame it on Byner is stupid.

Bingo! I knew I was forgetting something significant. Damn, I can't believe I forgot the most obvious one! That will probably be the #1 reason.

[The Big E]

this moment had the most negative emotional impact on my young 8 year old self.

what strange irony that i'm now a bronco fan. a weird sort've stockholm syndrome.
I'm in the same boat. I lived in Cleveland until age 12, and although I was long gone by the time of "The Fumble", that was one of the top 3 most painful sports moments of my life. I lost all connection with the Browns after dickhead Modell left in the middle of the night, and like you, I am now here, of all places.

BTW, my most painful sports moment was ASU's defense blowing the Rose Bowl, undefeated season, and national championship after Jake had lead the team to the go-ahead score with a minute or so left. I'm still pissed about that choke job.

[listopencil]

It wouldn't of even been a game if Byner didn't play the game he did. To even blame it on Byner is stupid.



Yep.

[ClevelandBronco2]

this moment had the most negative emotional impact on my young 8 year old self.

what strange irony that i'm now a bronco fan. a weird sort've stockholm syndrome.

I know exactly what you mean.

[BroncoBuff]

this moment had the most negative emotional impact on my young 8 year old self.

what strange irony that i'm now a bronco fan. a weird sort've stockholm syndrome.
"As is Stockholm, Norway . . ."


________________

Where is that line from? Anybody?

[BroncoBuff]

It wouldn't of even been a game if Byner didn't play the game he did. To even blame it on Byner is stupid.
You're right. That'll be the #1 reason.

[Lidderer]

I'm in the same boat. I lived in Cleveland until age 12, and although I was long gone by the time of "The Fumble", that was one of the top 3 most painful sports moments of my life. I lost all connection with the Browns after dickhead Modell left in the middle of the night, and like you, I am now here, of all places.

BTW, my most painful sports moment was ASU's defense blowing the Rose Bowl, undefeated season, and national championship after Jake had lead the team to the go-ahead score with a minute or so left. I'm still pissed about that choke job.

are you me?

[The Big E]

are you me?
LOL We do seem to have some parallels. I was at that Rose Bowl game with seats on the goal line where Jake ran it in, and to go from the highest high to the lowest low just sucked.

What's your Cleveland connection?

[Lidderer]

LOL We do seem to have some parallels. I was at that Rose Bowl game with seats on the goal line where Jake ran it in, and to go from the highest high to the lowest low just sucked.

What's your Cleveland connection?

not as strong as yours. When i went out for tyke football(ages 6-8) in canada(toronto) i would throw the ball side-arm and the coach always called me little kosar, so naturally i grafted my allegiance onto whichever team he played for. We got cleveland on tv a lot here too, so that helped spur on the interest. from what my family tells me i have never had a more visibly volatile reaction since that byner fumble.

as per ASU: i was a bonds fan back then too, so his alma mater was adopted as my requisite ncaa team to root for--what with my geographic dislocation from ncaa teams, I had to find other reasons to root for one school.

[SoCalBronco]

I think ClevelandBronco2 is also a recovering Browns fan who converted to the good side.

[watermock]

Byner gave a heroic performance...a miracle hit knocked the ball loose and denver got the ball...

Castille certainly was going to try to knock out the ball, but it would of been very unusual for Byner to cough it up...

He is a fine man, and fought like a man possessed that day,,,pisses me off when someone gives every ounce then is chastised...all I ever ask is 100 percent from a player, and he gave that and more...that what makes me mad about The Great Jake, but that's another subject that will be pushed around...

Byner is one of the best men to ever get on the field, and he feels terrible about that fumble, but it was a miracle hit, and IMO not his fault at all...I see a player going all out giving every ounce, how can you fault him? Byner has had to live that down and its totally unfair...he was fighting like a demon possesed and terrified me...we were lucky...it was one of the most important plays in history from a player that will be remembered as a marginal player, but that's football...I saw a show on it how hard he took it...

[-Slap-]

Bill Buckner, Jackie Smith and Mickey Owens are sorry, too.

I don't care how great a game Byner played, he let the smallest CB in the League strip him one-on-one, while he was about to score the game tying touchdown. Of course people are going to remember that.

Oh, yeah, unlike Buckner, Smith or Owens, Ernest Byner played for a Championship team four years later in Washington.

Nothing could be finer
Than a fumble by Ernest Byner
On the
Go-o-o-al line

[Mediator12]

Bill Buckner, Jackie Smith and Mickey Owens are sorry, too.

I don't care how great a game Byner played, he let the smallest CB in the League strip him one-on-one, while he was about to score the game tying touchdown. Of course people are going to remember that.

Oh, yeah, unlike Buckner, Smith or Owens, Ernest Byner played for a Championship team four years later in Washington.

Nothing could be finer
Than a fumble by Ernest Byner
On the
Go-o-o-al line

Well there is something to be said about that and the Cleveland Transplants. If you can not beat them, join them.

[delany]

I fell sorry for all Bronco fans that did not have the privilege of being born in to the Orange and Blue.

[Hotrod]

Blame him hell I thank him :yep:

[-Slap-]

Blame him hell I thank him :yep:
Oh, hell yeah. Dude would never have to buy his own drinks if I'm around.

[bendog]

With Buckner, I almost feel sorry for the guy (not a red sox fan, and I'm sorta bummed they finally won one) because he had been pulled in late innings, but for some reason the manager left him in in that one game.

What's funny with Byner is that the browns traded him to the redskins, where he had at least one really good year, but then brought him back to finish his career when he had little left in the tank.

[2KBack]

I fell sorry for all Bronco fans that did not have the privilege of being born in to the Orange and Blue.

Actually I think those guys have a tendency to appreciate the team more.

[B-Love]

Great moment with historical futility loaded all over it. If Wide World of Sports were still on TV at the time, they could have replaced the "Agony of Defeat" ski jumper who mangled himself, with Byner's fumble footage.

No denying that.

But even if he scores, Elway gets the ball with clearly enough time to get Karlis into easy FG range.

Even if Byner scores, Johnny wins the game 41-38. No one was going to deny Elway in that spot.

[The Big E]

I think ClevelandBronco2 is also a recovering Browns fan who converted to the good side.
I think you're right, but ClevelandBronco2 didn't say much about it, so it must still be too painful to talk about. I see a little subculture forming here.

[-Slap-]

With Buckner, I almost feel sorry for the guy (not a red sox fan, and I'm sorta bummed they finally won one) because he had been pulled in late innings, but for some reason the manager left him in in that one game.

What's funny with Byner is that the browns traded him to the redskins, where he had at least one really good year, but then brought him back to finish his career when he had little left in the tank.
McNamara had been replacing Buckner in situations like that all season. Rumor has it, Billy Bucks asked Mac to leave him out there, so he could be on the field when the BoSox recorded the final out.

To me, the only tragedy was letting that team full of assholes from New York win the title.

[bendog]

McNamara had been replacing Buckner in situations like that all season. Rumor has it, Billy Bucks asked Mac to leave him out there, so he could be on the field when the BoSox recorded the final out.

To me, the only tragedy was letting that team full of a-holes from New York win the title.
I believe that's very possible with Billy Bucks. I saw an espn classic on the series a few weeks back at the gym, and McNamera was on and just bssing all over that Buckner wasn't a def liability, and McNamera chose to leave him in, but McNamera is/was a pretty decent guy, so he'd cover for his player.

He was a pretty decent outfielder before he got his leg hung up on the fence. Some interesting egos of that era: valentine, billy bucks, garvey and of course lasorda.

[-Slap-]

I believe that's very possible with Billy Bucks. I saw an espn classic on the series a few weeks back at the gym, and McNamera was on and just bssing all over that Buckner wasn't a def liability, and McNamera chose to leave him in, but McNamera is/was a pretty decent guy, so he'd cover for his player.

He was a pretty decent outfielder before he got his leg hung up on the fence. Some interesting egos of that era: valentine, billy bucks, garvey and of course lasorda.
I grew up watching the Dodgers of the 70s. It was funny how much Cey and Lopes hated Garvey and his squeaky clean image.

[orange 4 life]

here's the one no one EVER seems to mention, and before reading the thread im going on a limb and guessing no one here has yet mentioned it either.

the touchdown byner wouldve scored would NOT have been the game winner.

it wouldve only tied the game, and elway wouldve simply won the game anyway.
people consistently refer to that as what wouldve been a "go ahead" touchdown and thats simply not the case.
after we recovered the fumble we took a safety which made the final score a five point win.

jake

[Old Dude]

First of all, I love that "top five reasons" show.

This should be an easy one, though. As I understand it, the question is why you can't put all the blame on Byner for losing that game.

Seems to me the big one would be that the Cleveland defense had already surrendered 38 points that day. How many teams have won a conference championship when they gave up 38 points on defense?

[orange 4 life]

Great moment with historical futility loaded all over it. If Wide World of Sports were still on TV at the time, they could have replaced the "Agony of Defeat" ski jumper who mangled himself, with Byner's fumble footage.

No denying that.

But even if he scores, Elway gets the ball with clearly enough time to get Karlis into easy FG range.

Even if Byner scores, Johnny wins the game 41-38. No one was going to deny Elway in that spot.

LOL.

funny stuff.

as soon as i clicked "submit", thought to myself "if anyone is going to point out the score its blove", and WHAM, you sure did.
kudos to you!! :thumbs:

[orange 4 life]

I grew up watching the Dodgers of the 70s. It was funny how much Cey and Lopes hated Garvey and his squeaky clean image.

i did too slap. great teams.
okay, off of memory. the '77 lineup.

lopes
law/monday
garvey
baker
cey (my favorite player as a kid)
smith
yeager
russell
pitcher (sutton and marshall led staff)

correct?

i was just a kid, but i loved the boys in blue, and my dad always took me to a number of games.
i also remember fondly the world series team in '81 that came back against the yanks (and fernando mania) and especially the '88 team since that was when i was in high school.
used to grab the girlfriend and a few friends and go to weekend games as often as possible.

jake

[Hogan11]

To me, the only tragedy was letting that team full of a-holes from New York win the title.

You got that right Slap....I hated that friggin' Mets team with a passion.

..and I'll never forgive the Dodgers for Blue Monday, so screw them.

[The Big E]

First of all, I love that "top five reasons" show.

This should be an easy one, though. As I understand it, the question is why you can't put all the blame on Byner for losing that game.

Seems to me the big one would be that the Cleveland defense had already surrendered 38 points that day. How many teams have won a conference championship when they gave up 38 points on defense?
If Ernie ol' boy doesn't fumble on the one, there would've been one that day. The Browns had big time momentum in that game, but if it wasn't Byner's fumble, there would have been another horrible ending in store for the Browns.

[The Big E]

I grew up watching the Dodgers of the 70s. It was funny how much Cey and Lopes hated Garvey and his squeaky clean image.
I hated all of those guys, especially Garvey. Slap, is that Cey in your avatar?

[Hogan11]

I hated all of those guys, especially Garvey. Slap, is that Cey in your avatar?
Cey & Hooten were the only cool ones in the entire bunch IMO.

[Breck Bronc]

To me, the only tragedy was letting that team full of a-holes from New York win the title.Have you read this book, Slap?

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0060507322.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

Sometimes I wish Kevin Mitchell would pay a visit to Mock's shack in Iowa.

[-Slap-]

i did too slap. great teams.
okay, off of memory. the '77 lineup.

lopes
law/monday
garvey
baker
cey (my favorite player as a kid)
smith
yeager
russell
pitcher (sutton and marshall led staff)

correct?

i was just a kid, but i loved the boys in blue, and my dad always took me to a number of games.
i also remember fondly the world series team in '81 that came back against the yanks (and fernando mania) and especially the '88 team since that was when i was in high school.
used to grab the girlfriend and a few friends and go to weekend games as often as possible.

jake

In 1977, I believe the Dodgers lineup went like this:

Lopes 2B
Russell SS
Smith RF*
Cey 3B*
Garvey 1B*
Monday CF
Baker LF*
Yeager C

* First team with four men with 30 HRs each, when Baker connected for his 30th bomb on the last day of the season.

Sutton - King gopherball. Very nice man in real life.
Hooten - He of the knuckle-curve.
John - Back from Tommy John surgery.......:)
Rhoden - Scratch golfer, great hitter.
Rau - Remember this little lefty?

Marshall had already pissed off everybody in Los Angeles and bought his ticket out of town and knuckleballer Charlie Hough was the closer. We've all seen Reggie's moon shot off him for homer number three in Game Six a million times.

Rudy Law didn't come around until a year or two later. Glenn Burke saw a lot of starts in centerfield that year. Of course, he met with a tragic end a few years later.

Lee Lacy was the number one utility man on those clubs and Manny Mota was still among the top pinch hitters in baseball.

I think I went to about a dozen games that season, but I probably saw or heard virtually every pitch on TV or radio.

[-Slap-]

Have you read this book, Slap?

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0060507322.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

Sometimes I wish Kevin Mitchell would pay a visit to Mock's shack in Iowa.
Nah, I wouldn't mind reading some juicy excerpts, but I wouldn't want to immerse myself for an entire book. I would rather reread Ball Four or The Bronx Zoo by Sparky Lyle.

My favorite part in Ball Four is when Joe Pepitone put a piece of popcorn under his foreskin and told the team doctor he had a new kind of venereal disease.

My favorite line from Bronx Zoo is when Stienbrenner came into the clubhouse and told one of his players, "You looked like a monkey trying to **** a football out there today."

[-Slap-]

You got that right Slap....I hated that friggin' Mets team with a passion.

..and I'll never forgive the Dodgers for Blue Monday, so screw them.
Watching Monday hit that homer almost made me late for football practice. I skidded my piece of crap '76 Toyota into the parking lot with about three minutes to spare, sprinted into the lockerroom, and suited up while running to the field.

[Hogan11]

Watching Monday hit that homer almost made me late for football practice. I skidded my piece of crap '76 Toyota into the parking lot with about three minutes to spare, sprinted into the lockerroom, and suited up while running to the field.

The thing is, I always liked Monday before that, especially when he was with the Cubs....then the guy takes a giant dump on my dream of a Yanks/Expos world series. He's been damned in my eyes ever since.

[watermock]

Lots of good comments on this thread...refreshing...

It's rather amusing, we have had a thorn in Cleveland's and Shottie's bunholes for quite awhile...

It's not like we don't have our own demons....the Browncos are the final insult...for now...

Again, the Browncos were not intended to fix the team...they came cheap and have been an effective bandaid despite a poor showing against KC....if they all sucked, none would be playing...perhaps it's more a reflection of the pathetic state of our DL than the greatness of the Browncos...regardless...they won the starting spots...

I still think Marco Coleman has a few snaps left in him at times, and man, some have allready vanished from memory...that's the nature of the beast...

[Atlas]

Byner had an amazing game against Denver. He played great. He had a 5 yard per carry average he had numerous big catch and runs and next to Kosar he would have been the Teams MVP if Cleveland would have won.
If he would have scored that would have ONLY tied the game and Denver still could have won it in overtime. It's not like If he would have scored Cleveland would have won. It just would have tied it up.

[orange 4 life]

In 1977, I believe the Dodgers lineup went like this:

Lopes 2B
Russell SS
Smith RF*
Cey 3B*
Garvey 1B*
Monday CF
Baker LF*
Yeager C

* First team with four men with 30 HRs each, when Baker connected for his 30th bomb on the last day of the season.

Sutton - King gopherball. Very nice man in real life.
Hooten - He of the knuckle-curve.
John - Back from Tommy John surgery.......:)
Rhoden - Scratch golfer, great hitter.
Rau - Remember this little lefty?

Marshall had already pissed off everybody in Los Angeles and bought his ticket out of town and knuckleballer Charlie Hough was the closer. We've all seen Reggie's moon shot off him for homer number three in Game Six a million times.

Rudy Law didn't come around until a year or two later. Glenn Burke saw a lot of starts in centerfield that year. Of course, he met with a tragic end a few years later.

Lee Lacy was the number one utility man on those clubs and Manny Mota was still among the top pinch hitters in baseball.

I think I went to about a dozen games that season, but I probably saw or heard virtually every pitch on TV or radio.

man i had forgotten how great that pitching staff was!!!
thanks for reminding me!

as for the lineup, i just did it off memory so i wouldnt be surprised to have a mistake or two, but a couple questions. help me remember here.

i always remembered it being garvey, baker, cey in that order, and i was almost POSITIVE that it was baker who hit cleanup?
did that maybe change post '77 and im remembering a later year?

also, the catcher generally bats 8th, but on that team i thought it was russell?
did they maybe switch that around some during the season?

also, did rudy law and rick monday platoon in later years or am i just making that up in my head?

thanks for the memories slappy. watching the dodgers all those years as a kid was one of the highlights of my youth.

jake

[orange 4 life]

Byner had an amazing game against Denver. He played great. He had a 5 yard per carry average he had numerous big catch and runs and next to Kosar he would have been the Teams MVP if Cleveland would have won.
If he would have scored that would have ONLY tied the game and Denver still could have won it in overtime. It's not like If he would have scored Cleveland would have won. It just would have tied it up.


...and again, THAT is the number ONE reason why you cant blame him.
at least thats my opinion.

[-Slap-]

man i had forgotten how great that pitching staff was!!!
thanks for reminding me!

as for the lineup, i just did it off memory so i wouldnt be surprised to have a mistake or two, but a couple questions. help me remember here.

i always remembered it being garvey, baker, cey in that order, and i was almost POSITIVE that it was baker who hit cleanup?
did that maybe change post '77 and im remembering a later year?

also, the catcher generally bats 8th, but on that team i thought it was russell?
did they maybe switch that around some during the season?

also, did rudy law and rick monday platoon in later years or am i just making that up in my head?

thanks for the memories slappy. watching the dodgers all those years as a kid was one of the highlights of my youth.

jake

Baker was just acquired for Jimmy Wynn in the off season and still a relatively young player, so he batted seventh most of that season. I think they also wanted Monday's left handed bat sixth, breaking up all the righthanded power. I think Lasorda batted Cey cleanup to partially soothe his ego, by giving him a more prestigious lineup spot than Garvey. Don't forget, Tommy coached that record setting infield coming up in Albuquerque and he knew all about their relationship.

Rick Monday was plagued by injuries in Los Angeles, but the Dodgers kept the man who saved the flag from burning in centerfield for several years. I think they acquired him straight up for Buckner before the 1977 season.

A variety of players started in center for the Dodgers over the next few seasons. Monday, the slaphitting Law, the previously mentioned and ill-fated Glenn Burke, former A Billy North, even Pedro Guerrero's terrible glove wound up in center on a few occasions. Unfortunately, when the Dodgers settled on a full time CF, it turned out to be the positively awful Kenny Landreaux.

[orange 4 life]

ahhhh.

thanks again for the memories.
some of those teams blur together!

makes sense about baker. probably was later ('79-'80 maybe?) that the garvey, baker, cey order happened.
the ego was a factor also, because i seem to remember cey not liking being put in the 6 spot.

kenny landreaux.
came from minnesota right?

i never liked him much. platooning worked better!!
guerrero was great, but he was a pretty bad fielder.
doesnt he still hold the record for reaching base the most consecutive times?

you know, the more i think about it center field was a tough position for a LONG time.
we had shelby there in '88 right?
he wasnt much either, other than an occasional timely homer.
if i remember right he was marginal as a fielder and though when he came to the team (from oakland?) we were all excited he never really got it together at the plate.

still, those teams from the late 70's through the late 80's sure were fun to watch werent they?

[-Slap-]

ahhhh.

thanks again for the memories.
some of those teams blur together!

makes sense about baker. probably was later ('79-'80 maybe?) that the garvey, baker, cey order happened.
the ego was a factor also, because i seem to remember cey not liking being put in the 6 spot.

kenny landreaux.
came from minnesota right?

i never liked him much. platooning worked better!!
guerrero was great, but he was a pretty bad fielder.
doesnt he still hold the record for reaching base the most consecutive times?

you know, the more i think about it center field was a tough position for a LONG time.
we had shelby there in '88 right?
he wasnt much either, other than an occasional timely homer.
if i remember right he was marginal as a fielder and though when he came to the team (from oakland?) we were all excited he never really got it together at the plate.

still, those teams from the late 70's through the late 80's sure were fun to watch werent they?

I stopped cheering for the Dodgers (or any specific MLB team) after 1986. I was bitter about collusion and suspected the O'Malleys were one of the main instigators. I'm much more sympathetic to the cause of management now than I was then. Back then, all I could see was that Andre Dawson wanted to play for the Dodgers and they decided to go with T-Bone Shelby instead (from Baltimore). I finally got tired of the business side of the sport and decided I wasn't going to invest myself emotionally anymore.

In 1987, I started viewing the league as a, more or less, impartial obverver. I still rooted for and against individuals, but I terminated all team allegiances. It works well for me because I'm really into roto baseball and that's a year to year thing.

[orange 4 life]

I stopped cheering for the Dodgers (or any specific MLB team) after 1986. I was bitter about collusion and suspected the O'Malleys were one of the main instigators. I'm much more sympathetic to the cause of management now than I was then. Back then, all I could see was that Andre Dawson wanted to play for the Dodgers and they decided to go with T-Bone Shelby instead (from Baltimore). I finally got tired of the business side of the sport and decided I wasn't going to invest myself emotionally anymore.

In 1987, I started viewing the league as a, more or less, impartial obverver. I still rooted for and against individuals, but I terminated all team allegiances. It works well for me because I'm really into roto baseball and that's a year to year thing.

interesting you say that.

i still root for the dodgers and the rockies, but only casually, and i mean VERY casually.
the same thing happened for me, but it took a little longer.

it was the strike and the excalating salaries (pitchers who were under .500 making millions) that did it for me in the early and mid nineties.

since then, im just a casual observer, though i still hope the dodgers or rockies do well.
thats definately hope against hope!!