These observations are fact about KC game

[Gcver2ver3]

I know much of if not all has been covered already but I'm just jumping on and I need to vent my frustrations of the game....I know its long but read all of this cause it is all truth...We should've won this game (despite the lack of holding penalties called) but anyways.....

Mike Shanahan....the playcalling urked me big time...I know many of you blame other things first but our game plan hurt us the most....Against JAX & Oakland & Dallas and even the Giants on the road we played more conservative. We ran the ball all day and played within every ten yards. This time Shanny decides to "open things up" against a rowdy Chiefs team. What upset me the most is when we actually try and convert on 3rd and friggin 18 yards or something. Dude just run the ball and punt it! We do not have the o-line or the QB to try and go empty backfield and get a long pass play. I KNEW we'd get picked off trying that and we did.

Defense.....Dude it is called an adjustment!!!...We made them against San Diego when we played them...we have been jailhouse blitzing all year...what happened this time? Take some chances...we weren't stopping them sitting back in coverage. Coyer made very few second half adjustments and that cooked my goose a little. Trent Green had time to make a one minute egg back there.

Tatum Bell......You can't be serious here....the most dangerous player on our team getting just a few touches is just plain dumb. When he was in he ripped off 1st down runs at will and he was due to break one any moment. Plus with him in you HAVE to respect the play action pass. Dayne & MA are good but keeping Bell out of the game till the 2nd half is an example of over coaching.

Jake Plummer....honestly Jake made some nice plays and I don't blame him for the 2nd int because we had no business trying to convert on 3rd and friggin 20 yards deep in our own territory...BUT FOR ONCE can Jake make a good throw to Lelie deep so the poor guy can score on the play?....guys, think about how many times Lelie has had to STRUGGLE to make a catch he's WIDE OPEN on deep down field...they need to practice that more.

Shanahan has been great this year but I couldn't believe some of his decision making this game. Don't go away from what works...on the road we run the ball more...esp on 3rd and forever! Hopefully Tatum will get the ball more from here out also.

That's all I got...oh and by the way the officiating sucked.....

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Seemed to me that Shanny got more conservative after the second INT. Can't say that I blame him.

[Gcver2ver3]

Seemed to me that Shanny got more conservative after the second INT. Can't say that I blame him.



2 little 2 late

[Lidderer]

needs more opinion

[Hulamau]

I know much of if not all has been covered already but I'm just jumping on and I need to vent my frustrations of the game....I know its long but read all of this cause it is all truth...We should've won this game (despite the lack of holding penalties called) but anyways.....

Mike Shanahan....the playcalling urked me big time...I know many of you blame other things first but our game plan hurt us the most....Against JAX & Oakland & Dallas and even the Giants on the road we played more conservative. We ran the ball all day and played within every ten yards. This time Shanny decides to "open things up" against a rowdy Chiefs team. What upset me the most is when we actually try and convert on 3rd and friggin 18 yards or something. Dude just run the ball and punt it! We do not have the o-line or the QB to try and go empty backfield and get a long pass play. I KNEW we'd get picked off trying that and we did.

Defense.....Dude it is called an adjustment!!!...We made them against San Diego when we played them...we have been jailhouse blitzing all year...what happened this time? Take some chances...we weren't stopping them sitting back in coverage. Coyer made very few second half adjustments and that cooked my goose a little. Trent Green had time to make a one minute egg back there.

Tatum Bell......You can't be serious here....the most dangerous player on our team getting just a few touches is just plain dumb. When he was in he ripped off 1st down runs at will and he was due to break one any moment. Plus with him in you HAVE to respect the play action pass. Dayne & MA are good but keeping Bell out of the game till the 2nd half is an example of over coaching.

Jake Plummer....honestly Jake made some nice plays and I don't blame him for the 2nd int because we had no business trying to convert on 3rd and friggin 20 yards deep in our own territory...BUT FOR ONCE can Jake make a good throw to Lelie deep so the poor guy can score on the play?....guys, think about how many times Lelie has had to STRUGGLE to make a catch he's WIDE OPEN on deep down field...they need to practice that more.

Shanahan has been great this year but I couldn't believe some of his decision making this game. Don't go away from what works...on the road we run the ball more...esp on 3rd and forever! Hopefully Tatum will get the ball more from here out also.

That's all I got...oh and by the way the officiating sucked.....


Couldn't agree with you more, my thoughts exactly. Tatum was WAY underused yesterday and on the long ball to Lelie it was so frustrating. I'm almost wishing we would put Van Pelt in for a breather play or two every now and then like we did on his TD run only this time with him throwing the long ball to Lelie. At least hes got some distance on his throws as evidence by that beautiful TD bomb to Devoe right in his arms in stride in preseason. That was an Easy TD if Ash gets it anywhere near in stride which would have avoided the mind fart with the endzone INT and won the game easily for us.

That endzone INT was a 14 point swing for KC as they took the reverse momentum right down the field and got 7. IF we go up 14-0 right there as we should have its a whole different ballgame, defensively and offensively, for us.

I like a lot of what Plummer has done this year and he has scrambling skills not many QBs can duplicate, but the fact is we win when he is relgated to ball usher for the running backs and throwing dink and dunk safe passes. He is never going to be an accurate mid to long baller and not having that threat is a real limitation in our game.

That end of game Hail Mary that shot straight up and back down again 12 yards shy of any Broncos was ... well not worth commenting on.

Shanny apparently got too enarmored with the 3 RB roulette. MA has given us almost all of his big yards in the first quarter of games this year and not so much in the second half, and Tater has been the main real threat the rest of our games and yet we just dont use him enough in my view.

We better not look past any of the next 3 games are we'll be fighting for a another wild card spot.

[Gcver2ver3]

Couldn't agree with you more, my thoughts exactly. Tatum was WAY underused yesterday and on the long ball to Lelie it was so frustrating. I'm almost wishing we would put Van Pelt in for a breather play or two every now and then like we did on his TD run only this time with him throwing the long ball to Lelie. At least hes got some distance on his throws as evidence by that beautiful TD bomb to Devoe right in his arms in stride in preseason. That was an Easy TD if Ash gets it anywhere near in stride which would have avoided the mind fart with the endzone INT and won the game easily for us.

That endzone INT was a 14 point swing for KC as they took the reverse momentum right down the field and got 7. IF we go up 14-0 right there as we should have its a whole different ballgame, defensively and offensively, for us.

I like a lot of what Plummer has done this year and he has scrambling skills not many QBs can duplicate, but the fact is we win when he is relgated to ball usher for the running backs and throwing dink and dunk safe passes. He is never going to be an accurate mid to long baller and not having that threat is a real limitation in our game.

That end of game Hail Mary that shot straight up and back down again 12 yards shy of any Broncos was ... well not worth commenting on.

Shanny apparently got too enarmored with the 3 RB roulette. MA has given us almost all of his big yards in the first quarter of games this year and not so much in the second half, and Tater has been the main real threat the rest of our games and yet we just dont use him enough in my view.

We better not look past any of the next 3 games are we'll be fighting for a another wild card spot.


Great post and thanks for acknowledging my comments

[Crushaholic]

You gotta remember that Tatum was just coming back from a chest injury. He probably wasn't 100% and Shanahan was slowly getting him back in the mix. At least that's what I want to believe...:saywhat:

[footstepsfrom#27]

Couldn't agree with you more, my thoughts exactly. Tatum was WAY underused yesterday and on the long ball to Lelie it was so frustrating. I'm almost wishing we would put Van Pelt in for a breather play or two every now and then like we did on his TD run only this time with him throwing the long ball to Lelie. At least hes got some distance on his throws as evidence by that beautiful TD bomb to Devoe right in his arms in stride in preseason. That was an Easy TD if Ash gets it anywhere near in stride which would have avoided the mind fart with the endzone INT and won the game easily for us.

That endzone INT was a 14 point swing for KC as they took the reverse momentum right down the field and got 7. IF we go up 14-0 right there as we should have its a whole different ballgame, defensively and offensively, for us.

I like a lot of what Plummer has done this year and he has scrambling skills not many QBs can duplicate, but the fact is we win when he is relgated to ball usher for the running backs and throwing dink and dunk safe passes. He is never going to be an accurate mid to long baller and not having that threat is a real limitation in our game.

That end of game Hail Mary that shot straight up and back down again 12 yards shy of any Broncos was ... well not worth commenting on.

Shanny apparently got too enarmored with the 3 RB roulette. MA has given us almost all of his big yards in the first quarter of games this year and not so much in the second half, and Tater has been the main real threat the rest of our games and yet we just dont use him enough in my view.

We better not look past any of the next 3 games are we'll be fighting for a another wild card spot.
My thoughts exactly...especially on Bell and the limitations it puts on our game with Jake not having the arm to go deep.

[GreatBronco16]

BUT FOR ONCE can Jake make a good throw to Lelie deep so the poor guy can score on the play?....guys, think about how many times Lelie has had to STRUGGLE to make a catch he's WIDE OPEN on deep down field...they need to practice that more.



Plummer threw the ball from his 20 yard line to KCs 20 yard line where Lelie made the catch. That is 60 yards in the air and about as far as Plummer can throw one, esp coming out of the bootleg. Plummer would have had to hum that ball 70-75 yards to hit Lelie in stride. Sorry, but I think Vick is the only QB with that kind of arm strength.

[Gcver2ver3]

Plummer threw the ball from his 20 yard line to KCs 20 yard line where Lelie made the catch. That is 60 yards in the air and about as far as Plummer can throw one, esp coming out of the bootleg. Plummer would have had to hum that ball 70-75 yards to hit Lelie in stride. Sorry, but I think Vick is the only QB with that kind of arm strength.


If this were the first time he under threw him or made a poor deep pass then I can understand......

You're missing what I said....ALL SEASON LONG he has thrown bad deep balls to a wide open Lelie...many touchdowns we missed on so far...this is an area that should be worked on.....

[BroncoBuff]

I know much of if not all has been covered already but I'm just jumping on and I need to vent my frustrations of the game....I know its long but read all of this cause it is all truth...We should've won this game (despite the lack of holding penalties called) but anyways.....

Mike Shanahan....the playcalling urked me big time...I know many of you blame other things first but our game plan hurt us the most....Against JAX & Oakland & Dallas and even the Giants on the road we played more conservative. We ran the ball all day and played within every ten yards. This time Shanny decides to "open things up" against a rowdy Chiefs team. What upset me the most is when we actually try and convert on 3rd and friggin 18 yards or something. Dude just run the ball and punt it! We do not have the o-line or the QB to try and go empty backfield and get a long pass play. I KNEW we'd get picked off trying that and we did.

Defense.....Dude it is called an adjustment!!!...We made them against San Diego when we played them...we have been jailhouse blitzing all year...what happened this time? Take some chances...we weren't stopping them sitting back in coverage. Coyer made very few second half adjustments and that cooked my goose a little. Trent Green had time to make a one minute egg back there.

Tatum Bell......You can't be serious here....the most dangerous player on our team getting just a few touches is just plain dumb. When he was in he ripped off 1st down runs at will and he was due to break one any moment. Plus with him in you HAVE to respect the play action pass. Dayne & MA are good but keeping Bell out of the game till the 2nd half is an example of over coaching.

Jake Plummer....honestly Jake made some nice plays and I don't blame him for the 2nd int because we had no business trying to convert on 3rd and friggin 20 yards deep in our own territory...BUT FOR ONCE can Jake make a good throw to Lelie deep so the poor guy can score on the play?....guys, think about how many times Lelie has had to STRUGGLE to make a catch he's WIDE OPEN on deep down field...they need to practice that more.

Shanahan has been great this year but I couldn't believe some of his decision making this game. Don't go away from what works...on the road we run the ball more...esp on 3rd and forever! Hopefully Tatum will get the ball more from here out also.
I agree with much of this . . . although I thought the Chefs were called for holding 3 or more times. Maybe they deserved more. I saw Warren and Pryce being held several times.

I agree - you're absolutely right about Bell being feloniously under-used. My post on that topic: http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=34369

I agree - Plummer's deep balls to Lelie are off target. I don't think Ashley is at fault, though - he always is forced to change his route and go back for the ball or something. It's amazing Jake hasn't been picked 2 or 3 more times on his off-target deep balls to Lelie - like he was vs. Dallas.

I agree that the 3rd and 18 run was silly - the odds were 1 in 50 we make the first down there. I don't think we had a 19-yard run all game.

I agree we could've blitzed some more - more variety of blitzes like vs. Philly. Green had too much time. I am concernd that - despite all the first-rounders on the d-line - we rarely get much of a pass rush with linemen only. Perhaps that's because teams gameplan for the Coyer blitz-o-rama, so without a blitz, they have plenty of protection, and the right kind of quick pass routes.

[BroncoBuff]

Plummer threw the ball from his 20 yard line to KCs 20 yard line where Lelie made the catch. That is 60 yards in the air and about as far as Plummer can throw one, esp coming out of the bootleg. Plummer would have had to hum that ball 70-75 yards to hit Lelie in stride. Sorry, but I think Vick is the only QB with that kind of arm strength.
There's another way to look at this problem . . . Mensa-Jakey should've let the ball go sooner.

[BroncoBuff]

needs more opinion
So you're saying you're a . . . Chef? hmmm...

[Gcver2ver3]

You gotta remember that Tatum was just coming back from a chest injury. He probably wasn't 100% and Shanahan was slowly getting him back in the mix. At least that's what I want to believe...:saywhat:


I remember that but to be honest Tatum could've played last week had the game been on Sunday instead of ealier that Thursday...

Tatum was fine for the game....WAY under utilized....bad choice by Shanahan

That's really the bottom line...hopefully he's learned his lesson:thumbs:

[BroncoBuff]

Couldn't agree with you more, my thoughts exactly. Tatum was WAY underused yesterday and on the long ball to Lelie it was so frustrating. I'm almost wishing we would put Van Pelt in for a breather play or two every now and then like we did on his TD run only this time with him throwing the long ball to Lelie. At least hes got some distance on his throws as evidence by that beautiful TD bomb to Devoe right in his arms in stride in preseason. That was an Easy TD if Ash gets it anywhere near in stride which would have avoided the mind fart with the endzone INT and won the game easily for us.
I agree with the Van Pelt idea . . . if Mensa-Jakey's ego can handle it. It's like a relief pitcher in baseball . . . the hitters are getting their timing for Jake after 3 at-bats . . . so thrown 'em a curve! Just when things are stalling a bit . . . like after the 3-and-out to start the second half yesterday . . . put BVP in for one pedal-to-the-metal possession . . . maybe no-huddle!! They could practice a scripted BVP series during the week. 6 or 8 no-huddle plays w/ BVP. After a QB sneak and maybe a trick play, run the "go" route to Ashley!

Better yet, save all that for the post-season.

__________

Mark my words - on this date 5 December, 2005:
In 3 years, BVP will QB Denver and Charlie Frye will QB Cleveland, and one or both will go to the Pro Bowl. Don't attack me on this . . . . just put it in the time capsule.

[fontaine]

Plummer threw the ball from his 20 yard line to KCs 20 yard line where Lelie made the catch. That is 60 yards in the air and about as far as Plummer can throw one, esp coming out of the bootleg. Plummer would have had to hum that ball 70-75 yards to hit Lelie in stride. Sorry, but I think Vick is the only QB with that kind of arm strength.

Word. Let's be grateful that we have a QB that has the mobility and hustle to find our deep threat a couple of times a game, instead of whining about it.

Most QBs don't get enough time in the pocket to let that deep pass develop but Jake makes that time happen with his mobility.

Last year Jake and Lelie hooked up for more big plays than almost any other tandem in the league so all your b*tching is a moot point.

Tell me exactly how many times a year do you see a QB throw a 60 yard pass on a rope to a WR that hits him exactly in stride unless it's a blown coverage and the guy is totally unmarked? Yeah I thought so.

The Deep ball game is a luxury not a need. If Lelie manned up and became more of a complete WR who could go across the middle and work the end zone we wouldn't be asking Jake to throw 50 yard bombs just to get Lelie a token couple of catches a game.

But God forbid we expect more out of our 4th year 1st round pick. I mean we wouldn't want Lelie to pick up a booboo going across the middle right?

Our defense lays down 31 points like gutter dogs and all some people can complain about is Jake not throwing a perfect 60 yard bomb that hits Lelie in stride. This is real live NFL, not Madden NFL 2005 on your playstation. Unbelievable.

[BroncoBuff]

The Deep ball game is a luxury not a need.
Word.

[GreatBronco16]

If this were the first time he under threw him or made a poor deep pass then I can understand......

You're missing what I said....ALL SEASON LONG he has thrown bad deep balls to a wide open Lelie...many touchdowns we missed on so far...this is an area that should be worked on.....


And you're not understanding that by the time Plummer does the play-action, and rolls out of his bootleg, Lelie is already 50 yards down the field. Now I know there have been a few times where Plummer has dropped back and still underthrown the ball, but regardless, you're still taking a big gamble on throwing that deep to begin with. I think the League average completion % on passes thrown in the air 50+ yards is around 30%.

There's another way to look at this problem . . . Mensa-Jakey should've let the ball go sooner.

It's hard to do coming out of a rollout, come to a complete stop and just toss it 60 yards down the field. How many QBs can do a PA rollout pass, stop on a dime, and then throw it 60 yards downfield and hit their WR in stride? I know Vick could with his arm, and maybe Manning.

[x123z]

I have to think there was a good reason not to play Bell more. Van Pelt has the ability to play QB. Don't know about his smarts.

[Morton]

I know much of if not all has been covered already but I'm just jumping on and I need to vent my frustrations of the game....I know its long but read all of this cause it is all truth...We should've won this game (despite the lack of holding penalties called) but anyways.....

Mike Shanahan....the playcalling urked me big time...I know many of you blame other things first but our game plan hurt us the most....Against JAX & Oakland & Dallas and even the Giants on the road we played more conservative. We ran the ball all day and played within every ten yards. This time Shanny decides to "open things up" against a rowdy Chiefs team. What upset me the most is when we actually try and convert on 3rd and friggin 18 yards or something. Dude just run the ball and punt it! We do not have the o-line or the QB to try and go empty backfield and get a long pass play. I KNEW we'd get picked off trying that and we did.

Defense.....Dude it is called an adjustment!!!...We made them against San Diego when we played them...we have been jailhouse blitzing all year...what happened this time? Take some chances...we weren't stopping them sitting back in coverage. Coyer made very few second half adjustments and that cooked my goose a little. Trent Green had time to make a one minute egg back there.

Tatum Bell......You can't be serious here....the most dangerous player on our team getting just a few touches is just plain dumb. When he was in he ripped off 1st down runs at will and he was due to break one any moment. Plus with him in you HAVE to respect the play action pass. Dayne & MA are good but keeping Bell out of the game till the 2nd half is an example of over coaching.

Jake Plummer....honestly Jake made some nice plays and I don't blame him for the 2nd int because we had no business trying to convert on 3rd and friggin 20 yards deep in our own territory...BUT FOR ONCE can Jake make a good throw to Lelie deep so the poor guy can score on the play?....guys, think about how many times Lelie has had to STRUGGLE to make a catch he's WIDE OPEN on deep down field...they need to practice that more.

Shanahan has been great this year but I couldn't believe some of his decision making this game. Don't go away from what works...on the road we run the ball more...esp on 3rd and forever! Hopefully Tatum will get the ball more from here out also.

That's all I got...oh and by the way the officiating sucked.....


Thank you for articulating what SHOULD, by now, be painfully obvious to the coaching staff but I am very afraid is not.

[sirhcyennek81]

9-3. 1st place. people are complaining because of one close loss in arrowhead? Neither defense was particularly any good on sunday, was typical of a Broncos-Chiefs game. Move on, have Baltimore next.

[Sassy]

9-3. 1st place. people are complaining because of one close loss in arrowhead? Neither defense was particularly any good on sunday, was typical of a Broncos-Chiefs game. Move on, have Baltimore next.
At least the board isnt' in meltdown mode like it was after Miami or the Giants.

[Rohirrim]

1. Jake is dumb. Shanny has to coach down to him. The playcalling reflects that. Look to the draft next year to see Shanny change that.

2. Broncos do not have a pass rusher. Again, look to the draft.

3. Tatum is probably still pretty sore.

[BroncoSoja]

Jake Plummer....honestly Jake made some nice plays and I don't blame him for the 2nd int because we had no business trying to convert on 3rd and friggin 20 yards deep in our own territory...BUT FOR ONCE can Jake make a good throw to Lelie deep so the poor guy can score on the play?....guys, think about how many times Lelie has had to STRUGGLE to make a catch he's WIDE OPEN on deep down field...they need to practice that more.
..


You cant practice Arm Strength and Plummer has none... Dont believe me? See the numerous games that he has been a bronco when he has thrown deep down the field (more then 40 yards) then see how the WR has to always turn around and fight for the ball.

After re watching this play it appears I was wrong, that was about a 50-60 yard pass.. Maybe his armstrength is not the problem, but waiting so long to hold onto the ball to deliever it sure as hell is.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

1. Jake is dumb. Shanny has to coach down to him.

It's beautiful to hear someone here finally admit it.

[BroncoSoja]

[QUOTE=Rohirrim]1. Jake is dumb. Shanny has to coach down to him. The playcalling reflects that. Look to the draft next year to see Shanny change that.
QUOTE]

I sure as hell hope so.. And I agree with this 100 percent.. All year long Plummer has had a leash on him as to what he can do on the field.. When we open the playbook up the Dallas game and KC game are the results...He is a INT machine and has the worse INT/TD ratio of any QB in history....That will never change no matter who coach's him.

[The Big E]

There's another way to look at this problem . . . Mensa-Jakey should've let the ball go sooner.
You can take your little smirky smart-ass comment and shove it.

[Sassy]

[QUOTE=Rohirrim]1. Jake is dumb. Shanny has to coach down to him. The playcalling reflects that. Look to the draft next year to see Shanny change that.
QUOTE]

I sure as hell hope so.. And I agree with this 100 percent.. All year long Plummer has had a leash on him as to what he can do on the field.. When we open the playbook up the Dallas game and KC game are the results...He is a INT machine and has the worse INT/TD ratio of any QB in history....That will never change no matter who coach's him.
Only 2 QB's with less than INT's than Jake that are in the top 15....and Jake still has a rating of above 90....and he has two less INT's than Manning...yeah, I know..Manning has 3 more wins...


NAME COM ATT PCT YDS YPA LNG TD TD% INT INT% SK SYD RAT
1 P. Manning QB, IND 245 358 68.4 2966 8.29 80 25 7.0 8 2.2 9.0 35 107.6
2 C. Palmer QB, CIN 274 399 68.7 3149 7.89 70 26 6.5 7 1.8 16.0 87 106.6
3 B. Roethlisberger QB, PIT 125 197 63.5 1702 8.64 85 15 7.6 7 3.6 16.0 101 101.5
4 M. Bulger QB, STL 192 287 66.9 2297 8.00 57 14 4.9 9 3.1 26.0 188 94.4
5 Drew Brees QB, SDG 240 368 65.2 2813 7.64 43 20 5.4 11 3.0 19.0 151 93.9
6 J. Plummer QB, DEN 211 343 61.5 2512 7.32 72 15 4.4 6 1.7 15.0 98 91.2
7 Tom Brady QB, NWE 264 424 62.3 3301 7.79 71 18 4.2 10 2.4 21.0 165 90.7
8 B. Leftwich QB, JAC 175 302 57.9 2123 7.03 45 15 5.0 5 1.7 23.0 110 89.3
9 M. Hasselbeck QB, SEA 229 368 62.2 2704 7.35 52 15 4.1 8 2.2 19.0 123 89.1
10 T. Green QB, KAN 240 383 62.7 2947 7.70 60 13 3.4 9 2.4 25.0 175 87.9
11 M. Brunell QB, WAS 216 370 58.4 2512 6.79 78 16 4.3 5 1.4 25.0 191 87.8
12 J. Delhomme QB, CAR 200 330 60.6 2602 7.89 80 18 5.5 13 3.9 21.0 158 87.2
13 D. Bledsoe QB, DAL 229 374 61.2 2703 7.23 70 17 4.5 11 2.9 28.0 176 86.1
14 D. McNabb QB, PHI 211 357 59.1 2507 7.02 91 16 4.5 9 2.5 19.0 112 85.0
15 K. Warner QB, ARI 207 324 63.9 2343 7.23 63 9 2.8 8 2.5 19.0 131 84.4

He must be doing something right! Ha!

[The Big E]

No, Sassy, it's much easier to just focus only on the mistakes, and bitch about our 9-3 team. This is the Denver Broncos for god's sake and anything less than perfection is intolerable. Sorry, but I'm in a bad mood and these whiners are really buggin' the crap out of me right now.

[Sassy]

No, Sassy, it's much easier to just focus only on the mistakes, and b**** about our 9-3 team. This is the Denver Broncos for god's sake and anything less than perfection is intolerable. Sorry, but I'm in a bad mood and these whiners are really buggin' the crap out of me right now.
:pity:
Yeah...Too bad the chef fans won't go home...at least for a few weeks. Oh yeah, that's right...they only have four games left so it won't be long!:devil:

[missingnumber7]

:pity:
Yeah...Too bad the chef fans won't go home...at least for a few weeks. Oh yeah, that's right...they only have four games left so it won't be long!:devil:
They'll be to busy focusing on our schedule than on theirs and once we win our next two they won't be around, well other iowan, crazyhorse, and bob.

[Gcver2ver3]

And you're not understanding that by the time Plummer does the play-action, and rolls out of his bootleg, Lelie is already 50 yards down the field. Now I know there have been a few times where Plummer has dropped back and still underthrown the ball, but regardless, you're still taking a big gamble on throwing that deep to begin with. I think the League average completion % on passes thrown in the air 50+ yards is around 30%.



It's hard to do coming out of a rollout, come to a complete stop and just toss it 60 yards down the field. How many QBs can do a PA rollout pass, stop on a dime, and then throw it 60 yards downfield and hit their WR in stride? I know Vick could with his arm, and maybe Manning.


No again YOU'RE misunderstanding...I'm not trying to insult you in saying this...you are missing it...as I said last time he's missed Lelie all season long deep...I have every game on Tivo so trust me when I say he's missed Lelie a lot on the deep ball....

Deep ball isn't JUST about arm strength...timing & accuracy come to play as well...Plummer needs to get on the same page with Lelie on this....He is waiting on Lelie to get open instead of throwing it & anticipating him getting open...and THAT IS WHY Lelie is already 50 yds downfield before being thrown to....I have my issues with Lelie but not on this...the poor guy generally has the step on the deep ball and has been dealing with bad throws...not even once has Plummer hit him deep properly...with more practice this should be better rectified

[Gcver2ver3]

Word. Let's be grateful that we have a QB that has the mobility and hustle to find our deep threat a couple of times a game, instead of whining about it.

Most QBs don't get enough time in the pocket to let that deep pass develop but Jake makes that time happen with his mobility.

Last year Jake and Lelie hooked up for more big plays than almost any other tandem in the league so all your b*tching is a moot point.

Tell me exactly how many times a year do you see a QB throw a 60 yard pass on a rope to a WR that hits him exactly in stride unless it's a blown coverage and the guy is totally unmarked? Yeah I thought so.

The Deep ball game is a luxury not a need. If Lelie manned up and became more of a complete WR who could go across the middle and work the end zone we wouldn't be asking Jake to throw 50 yard bombs just to get Lelie a token couple of catches a game.

But God forbid we expect more out of our 4th year 1st round pick. I mean we wouldn't want Lelie to pick up a booboo going across the middle right?

Our defense lays down 31 points like gutter dogs and all some people can complain about is Jake not throwing a perfect 60 yard bomb that hits Lelie in stride. This is real live NFL, not Madden NFL 2005 on your playstation. Unbelievable.

I'm sorry but this is one of the poorest post I've read here...

You know very little dude...seriously

No one is WHINING here...let's not get ignorant alright?...The point was simply made that Plummer has had enough chances to hit Lelie deep and not once this season has he done that...that isn't whining that's a fact...I'm sure even his coaches are talking to him about that.

I like Plummer...he does good things for us but one area to improve on is his timing on the deep throw....if you truly knew football then you should know that going deep is more about timing and accuracy than it is about arm strength...guys with weak arms can hit players on stride...the key is to throw the ball anticipating your receiver to get open and not WAITING on him to be open...Plummer is waiting and that is why Lelie is friggin 50 yds downfield before being thrown to and THAT is why Plummer keeps under throwing him...although sometimes this year Plummer has just made poor throws to him period...Lelie has made a bunch of circus catches this year and you need to give him credit for that.....funny thing is the reason Lelie makes circus catches is because the balls thrown to him have been poorly thrown...

this is the case in Madden 2005 & in real life or any other silly analogy you wanna use....

[Gcver2ver3]

Thank you for articulating what SHOULD, by now, be painfully obvious to the coaching staff but I am very afraid is not.



yeah i hear ya....but i'm not throwing in the towel...i just hope we make the appropriate adjustments

[toad]

Seemed to me that Shanny got more conservative after the second INT. Can't say that I blame him.

I thought the same thing.

3rd and goal in the 2nd half and Shanny runs MA off tackle...you have to take a shot at the endzone in that situation...if nobody's open Jake can throw it away. We had the sure 3 either way (even if Jake had been sacked) so why not take one shot at 6.

That play, IMO, was one of the difference makers in the game.

[Rohirrim]

He must be doing something right! Ha!

Yeah. He got the right coach. ;D

[Traveler]

I agree- Plummer's deep balls to Lelie are off target. I don't think Ashley is at fault, though - he always is forced to change his route and go back for the ball or something. It's amazing Jake hasn't been picked 2 or 3 more times on his off-target deep balls to Lelie - like he was vs. Dallas.

Oh, how I live for the day when Ash doesn't have to wait for one of Jake's floaters to arrive. Sure, Lelie should be able to provide more than the occasional deep threat. But if Plummer could ever hit Ash or Rod in-stride, we probably wouldn't have this type on conversation or thread.

[Gcver2ver3]

Oh, how I live for the day when Ash doesn't have to wait for one of Jake's floaters to arrive. Sure, Lelie should be able to provide more than the occasional deep threat. But if Plummer could ever hit Ash or Rod in-stride, we probably wouldn't have this type on conversation or thread.


Glad to see conventional wisdom is starting to take back over.....

good take

[Bronx33]

Oh, how I live for the day when Ash doesn't have to wait for one of Jake's floaters to arrive. Sure, Lelie should be able to provide more than the occasional deep threat. But if Plummer could ever hit Ash or Rod in-stride, we probably wouldn't have this type on conversation or thread.


I totally agree 100% ...Ash has had a few beat like rented mules only to have to wait for the ball to show up.

[Rock Chalk]

Oh, how I live for the day when Ash doesn't have to wait for one of Jake's floaters to arrive. Sure, Lelie should be able to provide more than the occasional deep threat. But if Plummer could ever hit Ash or Rod in-stride, we probably wouldn't have this type on conversation or thread.
Wanna bet?

All these ****ing newbies bring up the same **** the old skool posters always did.

This **** wont ever change. Drama queens make this board a ****ing nightmare after losses.

[azbroncfan]

Plummer wins what else do some of these morons want? Yeah plummer has weaknesses but so does everyplayer in the league, everyplayer at every position has good and bad weeks, Denver has been too successful to draft low enough for a stud QB and there are few Tom Brady's plus shannahan doesn't trade up. My opinion is that Plummer throws his Deep Balls too high in the air and the wind/Defenders get to it but still he's proved that he can win in Denver's system.

[The Big E]

Plummer wins what else do some of these morons want? Yeah plummer has weaknesses but so does everyplayer in the league, everyplayer at every position has good and bad weeks, Denver has been too successful to draft low enough for a stud QB and there are few Tom Brady's plus shannahan doesn't trade up. My opinion is that Plummer throws his Deep Balls too high in the air and the wind/Defenders get to it but still he's proved that he can win in Denver's system.
Nice post. I suppose it's the same on any NFL board, but it's like having a nagging wife (or should I say, spouse) who focuses on what's wrong instead of what's right, and just won't let it go.

Once you figure out how to do some sort of DNA blend and come up with the perfect player, let me know. Until then, I'm happy with Jake's overall performance and record here in Denver..

[Jetmeck]

It's beautiful to hear someone here finally admit it.


How many INTS did TRINT throw Sunday ?

[Gcver2ver3]

Plummer wins what else do some of these morons want? Yeah plummer has weaknesses but so does everyplayer in the league, everyplayer at every position has good and bad weeks, Denver has been too successful to draft low enough for a stud QB and there are few Tom Brady's plus shannahan doesn't trade up. My opinion is that Plummer throws his Deep Balls too high in the air and the wind/Defenders get to it but still he's proved that he can win in Denver's system.


Are you implying that no one can speak of any area of opportunity for any player?

C'mon dude let's not do this...it is just an observation about Plummer...doesn't mean that everyone hates him or the team...it is just a harmless take....one that even Plummer may agree with might I add...

C'mon man lighten up...no need for name calling

[Bronx33]

How many INTS did TRINT throw Sunday ?

http://img271.imageshack.us/img271/3627/cricket0is.gif

[Gcver2ver3]

Nice post. I suppose it's the same on any NFL board, but it's like having a nagging wife (or should I say, spouse) who focuses on what's wrong instead of what's right, and just won't let it go.

Once you figure out how to do some sort of DNA blend and come up with the perfect player, let me know. Until then, I'm happy with Jake's overall performance and record here in Denver..

A lot of people are happy with his performance...what's your point?

You act like no one can even speak in any negative way toward him.

I really like Plummer...I always have even when others didn't...I've defended him more than I can count so I feel I have earned the right to mention his deep ball....

You need to lighten up...I don't see the need to bash people for making a comment unless they were insulting you personally....

[The Big E]

A lot of people are happy with his performance...what's your point?

You act like no one can even speak in any negative way toward him.

I really like Plummer...I always have even when others didn't...I've defended him more than I can count so I feel I have earned the right to mention his deep ball....

You need to lighten up...I don't see the need to bash people for making a comment unless they were insulting you personally....
Fair enough.

[watermock]

The stone cold fact is I think we will try Terrell next year and let Lelie go...with out luck he goes to indy and gets 2500 yards, but I'm tired of his act...Rod Smith is 35 and outplaying someone 10 years his junior but no rookie...and Rod was undrafted...Lelie at 18 or something...

go figure, but the failure of the WR's has made it a priority when we all hoped we could draft LT, lepsis is doing fine, but we need inside help at least...if nalen wants to keep playing, he will rework, but this team needs an impact WR...if there is a FA out there besides TO, we bite...I wanted Joe Veryvicious or god, I can't think of his name...I think he landed with the Giants, but we should of gotten another WR...Devoe is good for one big play per game but isn't a starter....

Beezlebub woke up and I told him we lost and has been mad all day...he just knocked some ornaments down...I have sedated him with some valium...he was very upset...It was the tree or meds...

[watermock]

We need to lighten up...I'm watching stuff on the history chanell about the Nazis and there is always next week...it's unreal..

We regroup and attack next week...KC wan't a pushover and we made WAY too many mistakes....

[BroncoBuff]

You can take your little smirky smart-ass comment and shove it.
I didn't mean you, tough guy.

I meant Jake Plummer. P-l-u-m-m-e-r. You know, the quarterback?

Idiot.

[The Big E]

I didn't mean you, tough guy.

I meant Jake Plummer. P-l-u-m-m-e-r. You know, the quarterback?

Idiot.
I know who you were talking about. And thanks for recognizing that I'm a tough guy.

[BroncoBuff]

You can take your little smirky smart-ass comment and shove it.
You missed my post completely, genius. And when you choose to insult rather than comprehend, you do us all a disservice.

What I said was serious, not smart-ass:

There's another way to look at this problem . . . Mensa-Jakey should've let the ball go sooner.
The topic was Jakey underthrowing Lelie on the deep ball - a problem that has persisted all season. gcver2ver3 said he thought Jake couldn't get the ball far enough upfield. I was actually DEFENDING JAKE when I proposed that his accuracy is fine, but his release should come a nano-second sooner. That way he doesn't OVER-throw.

Big E = Elmer :homer:

[BroncoBuff]

I know who you were talking about. And thanks for recognizing that I'm a tough guy.
I recognize that you're foolish for misreading a simple post that actually DEFENDED Jake.

. . . or was it the "Mensa" comment that tweaked you? If so, don't feel bad, tough guy! Tweaker! It takes all kinds! I'm not prejudiced!

_________

Shouldda figured a guy with a 'Jason Newsted-lookalike Chris Cornell-wannabe with tats up his nose' avatar would ride the short bus . . .

Big E = Elmer :homer:

[The Big E]

Listen, I thought your "Mensa Jakey" comment was a pot-shot at Plummer, and that is what I was responding to. I don't come here to get into it with anyone, including you. My post was 6 hours ago when I was in a particularly bad mood and your post rubbed me the wrong way. I usually like your posts, so let's leave it at that. I'll save my venom for Chef fans in the future. Cool?

[Nomad]

If this were the first time he under threw him or made a poor deep pass then I can understand......

You're missing what I said....ALL SEASON LONG he has thrown bad deep balls to a wide open Lelie...many touchdowns we missed on so far...this is an area that should be worked on.....

Actually I remember some nice deep balls this year...

Two that come to mind are Rod against NE (deep post in stride, but didn't score) and Ash in the same game (no score). It did set up 2 TDs. I too wish Ashley and Jake would get on the same page like last year. Those deep routes take a while to develop and timing is critical. Last Sunday in KC, I'm glad that he underthrew it for a completion rather than overthrowing it for nada! That play put us in the red zone and should've been at least 3 (had the INT not happened).

IMO is seems like he hits Rod in stride way more than Lelie...Is it timing or comfort or what?

[BroncoBuff]

Actually, The Big E, I just read several of your posts and you're no dummy - you're pretty darn smart. But I think you're a Plummer-bsupporter who misread my posts as a rip at Jake - it wasn't.

[BroncoBuff]

Listen, I thought your "Mensa Jakey" comment was a pot-shot at Plummer, and that is what I was responding to. I don't come here to get into it with anyone, including you. My post was 6 hours ago when I was in a particularly bad mood and your post rubbed me the wrong way. I usually like your posts, so let's leave it at that. I'll save my venom for Chef fans in the future. Cool?
Definitely. I was posting an apology myself at the same time. In fact, I was in a bit of a bad mood myself when I read your 'bad mood' post - but like I said, I read some of your past posts in the meantime and you're very cool in my book.

BTW - who's the avatar?

[The Big E]

Actually, The Big E, I just read several of your posts and you're no dummy - you're pretty darn smart. But I think you're a Plummer-bsupporter who misread my posts as a rip at Jake - it wasn't.
True, I am a Plummer homer so I can get a little sensitive sometimes when my boy's getting bashed. I think I have a realistic view of his good and bad points, but I can overreact sometimes, too. My buddies know that and like to push that button periodically, but that's all part of the fun. It's all good, my friend.

[The Big E]

Definitely. I was posting an apology myself at the same time. In fact, I was in a bit of a bad mood myself when I read your 'bad mood' post - but like I said, I read some of your past posts in the meantime and you're very cool in my book.

BTW - who's the avatar?
Mike Ness from Social Distortion.

[Broncoman13]

What will be beautiful is the day Alec makes his way up 45 to put a .45 in your ass!!!

[Gcver2ver3]

True, I am a Plummer homer so I can get a little sensitive sometimes when my boy's getting bashed. I think I have a realistic view of his good and bad points, but I can overreact sometimes, too. My buddies know that and like to push that button periodically, but that's all part of the fun. It's all good, my friend.


Fair enough dude....actually I admire your recent post offering to make the peace...that takes class actually...

Mad respect.....

[The Big E]

Cool. You started a great thread with a post that actually talks in detail about football, which is a huge relief after last week. I didn't intend to steer this off-course. It can be fun watching others tussle, but it ain't my thing. Now let's kick some Raven ass! (does a Raven even have an ass?)

[GreatBronco16]

Deep ball isn't JUST about arm strength...timing & accuracy come to play as well...

And like I said, by the time Plummer does the Play Action rollout/bootleg and turns to look upfield, Lelie is already nearly 50 yards down the field. It is the coaches place to make the WR run a route that allows the time for Plummer to make the rollout, stop, then throw. Lelie making a Bline straight down the field isn't allowing enough time for that.

Do you have the pass to Lelie on Tivo where Plummer made a great throw only to have Lelie slow up and watch the ball fly over his head? The timing isn't all Plummers fault on those deep throws.

[sirhcyennek81]

No point rehashing playcalling after the fact. Have a beat up and horrible raven team coming in this sunday. Time to get win number 10. That would be SO damn funny if KC and SD lose, giving us back a 2 game lead.

[Gcver2ver3]

And like I said, by the time Plummer does the Play Action rollout/bootleg and turns to look upfield, Lelie is already nearly 50 yards down the field. It is the coaches place to make the WR run a route that allows the time for Plummer to make the rollout, stop, then throw. Lelie making a Bline straight down the field isn't allowing enough time for that.

Do you have the pass to Lelie on Tivo where Plummer made a great throw only to have Lelie slow up and watch the ball fly over his head? The timing isn't all Plummers fault on those deep throws.

yes I do...that is the one time i remember lelie messing up on the deep route..

i'm not so sure about it being the coaches fault for having lelie not be so far down the field for plummer...i still think plummer needs to plant and throw before lelie is actually "open"..heave the ball and watch lelie separate and get underneath it....

i do agree with you about lelie needing to step up and heck maybe that is the bigger issue...but these two really need to practice together on the deep throw...would you agree with that?

[Gcver2ver3]

No point rehashing playcalling after the fact. Have a beat up and horrible raven team coming in this sunday. Time to get win number 10. That would be SO damn funny if KC and SD lose, giving us back a 2 game lead.

that would be funny.....

just thinking about it has me already startingHilarious!

[Cito Pelon]

I haven't been checking out all the fallout from the KC loss, but if Darrent the Playmaker would have taken that INT to the endzone, that would have been end of game.

Sometimes you have to put pressure on rookies, because they're the best chance you have, and that I think is fair pressure. Darrent wants to play well, and I think he has to play a little better. Patience, the kid needs patience, he needs to set up his blocks better. A stutter step here, a feint to the middle there, and the kid has 3 PR's for TD's, and he should have had the INT return for a TD. But Trent Green tackles him. The kid could own the season, but he blew it.

Too much pressure onthe rookie? I don't think so. The kid wants to excel. So he has 4 games left to excel, plus the playoffs.

[Gcver2ver3]

I haven't been checking out all the fallout from the KC loss, but if Darrent the Playmaker would have taken that INT to the endzone, that would have been end of game.

Sometimes you have to put pressure on rookies, because they're the best chance you have, and that I think is fair pressure. Darrent wants to play well, and I think he has to play a little better. Patience, the kid needs patience, he needs to set up his blocks better. A stutter step here, a feint to the middle there, and the kid has 3 PR's for TD's, and he should have had the INT return for a TD. But Trent Green tackles him. The kid could own the season, but he blew it.

Too much pressure onthe rookie? I don't think so. The kid wants to excel. So he has 4 games left to excel, plus the playoffs.


well that's an interesting angle to take....

i give trent green credit vs taking credit from d-will....green made a good hustle play to keep d-will from scoring

[GreatBronco16]

yes I do...that is the one time i remember lelie messing up on the deep route..

i'm not so sure about it being the coaches fault for having lelie not be so far down the field for plummer...i still think plummer needs to plant and throw before lelie is actually "open"..heave the ball and watch lelie separate and get underneath it....

i do agree with you about lelie needing to step up and heck maybe that is the bigger issue...but these two really need to practice together on the deep throw...would you agree with that?


Oh I agree they need to work on it 100% But Plummer does rollout stop and throw pretty quickly without just standing there, and Lelie still gets too far down field. Plummer just isn't gonna hit Lelie in stride 60-70 yards down the field. It just isn't going to happen. They need to do something where Lelie either slows up or does some kind of fake, then takes off down the field on like a delayed post or something, that should give Jake the time to finish the rollout. Maybe that would put Lelie at 40 yards downfield when Jake starts to throw. Lelie should make the catch in stride 55-60 yards downfield then.

Well atleast that is how I think it should happen.

[RINGLEADER]

As a Chiefs fan I pretty much agree with everything the thread-starter has to say...

[Gcver2ver3]

As a Chiefs fan I pretty much agree with everything the thread-starter has to say...


greatest post ever right there folks....:thumbs:

[DBroncos4life]

This is just my opinion but I thought the game changing play was the lack of blocking on Williams INT. I could be wrong but he only needed another block to be gone. KC ended up scoring the game winning TD the next drive. Even if we don't stop them from scoring that TD on that drive the game would be tied. I don't know if that has been brought up or not.

[fontaine]

I'm sorry but this is one of the poorest post I've read here...

You know very little dude...seriously

No one is WHINING here...let's not get ignorant alright?...The point was simply made that Plummer has had enough chances to hit Lelie deep and not once this season has he done that...that isn't whining that's a fact...I'm sure even his coaches are talking to him about that.

I like Plummer...he does good things for us but one area to improve on is his timing on the deep throw....if you truly knew football then you should know that going deep is more about timing and accuracy than it is about arm strength...guys with weak arms can hit players on stride...the key is to throw the ball anticipating your receiver to get open and not WAITING on him to be open...Plummer is waiting and that is why Lelie is friggin 50 yds downfield before being thrown to and THAT is why Plummer keeps under throwing him...although sometimes this year Plummer has just made poor throws to him period...Lelie has made a bunch of circus catches this year and you need to give him credit for that.....funny thing is the reason Lelie makes circus catches is because the balls thrown to him have been poorly thrown...

this is the case in Madden 2005 & in real life or any other silly analogy you wanna use....

Everyone here wants Jake to improve on his long ball game. Every QB in the league wants to improve their deep passes.

So what?

You're talking about a play that is used maybe 3-4 times a game max. We've been going deep 2-3 times a game when it's there. You can't just keep throwing the ball deep constantly, it's too risky and in the end the ints will pile up.

The point is, why complain about an aspect of Plummer's game that is probably the LEAST important part of being a great QB? You say Plummer needs to improve his accuracy and timing on deep passes? I say I'm grateful that we are attempting and connecting on deep passes to Lelie, not like a couple of years ago with Griese when 20 yards in the air was considering a long pass for him.

There are alot more important and relevant areas of improvement needed in Plummer's game and deep passes is the least of them.

[Gcver2ver3]

Everyone here wants Jake to improve on his long ball game. Every QB in the league wants to improve their deep passes.

So what?

You're talking about a play that is used maybe 3-4 times a game max. We've been going deep 2-3 times a game when it's there. You can't just keep throwing the ball deep constantly, it's too risky and in the end the ints will pile up.

The point is, why complain about an aspect of Plummer's game that is probably the LEAST important part of being a great QB? You say Plummer needs to improve his accuracy and timing on deep passes? I say I'm grateful that we are attempting and connecting on deep passes to Lelie, not like a couple of years ago with Griese when 20 yards in the air was considering a long pass for him.

There are alot more important and relevant areas of improvement needed in Plummer's game and deep passes is the least of them.


Dollar short and a day late...I kinda moved on from this thread but it's all good I'll briefly rebuttal...

What I was doing was not complaining...it is constructive criticism...my guess is you saw my post and replied to it without reading all my posts there after....Big E and I had some exchanges about Plummer and we came to a common ground....plus if you read the large majority of other postings on the thread you'll see that people pretty much agree with me...

it's cool you're entitled to your opinion but don't misunderstand mine..

I made it pretty clear that I'm pleased with Plummer's overall performance...and though it isn't the most important...the deep ball is a little more important than you're giving it credit for...

Frankly I was more upset with the way you delivered the post than the the actual points being made behind it

Again I ask that you read my posts there after and see EXACTLY where I'm coming from...I think you'll see where I'm coming from then...if not then let's just agree to disagree on this one...:thumbs: