What's the problem on 3rd down?

[bloodsunday]

We continue to stink up the joint on 3rd down (although we have moved from 2nd to last all the way up to 29th thanks to Pitts and Chicago). What is the problem?

I have heard several theories:
1) Our "system" offensive line and "technical" running game can't get it done when the rubber meets the road.

2) Many football analysts will tell you that 3rd down is the QBs down. He must make a play.

3) Shanny's play calling is either getting stale or conservative.

[bronco militia]

it's been a problem all season long....hell, it was a problem last year as well....

I'll blame the coaches...

[Nomad]

Let me guess?

BS blames JP

[bendog]

I blame Elam

he sucks

[Taco John]

Playcalling is fine. Execution leaves a lot to be desired across the board.

[Rock Chalk]

We continue to stink up the joint on 3rd down (although we have moved from 2nd to last all the way up to 29th thanks to Pitts and Chicago). What is the problem?

I have heard several theories:
1) Our "system" offensive line and "technical" running game can't get it done when the rubber meets the road.

2) Many football analysts will tell you that 3rd down is the QBs down. He must make a play.

3) Shanny's play calling is either getting stale or conservative.
Big surprise we lose, and here comes blood sunday.

What a dick.

[bloodsunday]

Let me guess?

BS blames JP Well actually... I do subsribe to the theory that its the QBs job to make plays when the game counts. But it does take execution by other players as well. Of course it wouldn't hurt to have some road-graders on the OL.

Here is a quote that sums up my position about Jake (from a Chris Mortensen Chat):

http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/chatESPN?event_id=10004


Scott (Rochester, NY): How can you pick Brady over Plummer for the Pro Bowl? Isnt Plummer getting MVP consideration? Can you win the MVP and not make the Pro Bowl?

Chris Mortensen: I know it sounds strange but Brady was my mid-season MVP. I know when i speak to other coaches and GMs about Plummer, they basically praise Shanahan for "dumbing down" the offense, making very easy for Jake to make a play or get out of it. That probably isn't fair to Jake because he's the one who had to buy into it. I actually feel worse about snubbing Brees.
Keep in mind that he is paraphrasing Coaches and GMs (very knowledgable football people). This was not an opinion that I conjured up to get a rile out you guys.

Hardly sounds like a ringing endorsement of Plummer. I think he has showed time and time again that his decision making is shaky. It is forcing us into watering down an offense that was near the top league in 3rd down conversions under Elway. (I know its unfair to compare, but since Lama is suggesting that his play yesterday was 7-esque). The watered down/game management theory has worked well for us for the most part but I just don't believe its going to get us a Super Bowl berth. I know everyone wants to blame the D (and they deserve some blame) but if our Offense manages a 3rd down against NYG after Bailey's pick, that game is over. Our offense managed 0 third down conversion in the 4th quarter yesterday. When you are built to run the ball and control the clock, that ain't good.

It was an NFC game, but that win against the Giants would be huge now. We have no margin for error and the game @Buffalo (which I don't think is going to be easy) has become a must win. We cannot go to San Diego playing for the division. We have to win the next 3 and that's tough to say when you're 9 - 3.

[fontaine]

Why do we suck on third downs?

Well, we simply don't have a playmaker anymore. We don't have a Sharpe, Portis, Eddie Mac, young Rod Smith etc.

What we do have is cheap imitations like Lelie, Putz, Alexander, Bell and defenses keying on Rod on third downs. To their credit, the coaches and the OL are getting by with smoke and mirrors but we seriously need just one playmaker to emerge from this offense to take the leadership role on third downs.

i.e. Anyone want to explain to me how good Brees would be without Gates catching TDs and converting third downs?

You give Brees, Alexander instead of Gates and he goes right back to looking like a chump.

[bloodsunday]

Big surprise we lose, and here comes blood sunday.

What a dick.
big surprise, another insightful post by Alec. I always love a guy with his own opinion and is willing to have an open mind about things. Since one person mentioned (almost jokingly and several weeks ago) that Plummer was having an MVP season, he is suddenly beyond criticism.

[Taco John]

Why do we suck on third downs?

Well, we simply don't have a playmaker anymore. We don't have a Sharpe, Portis, Eddie Mac, young Rod Smith etc.

What we do have is cheap imitations like Lelie, Putz, Alexander, Bell and defenses keying on Rod on third downs. To their credit, the coaches and the OL are getting by with smoke and mirrors but we seriously need just one playmaker to emerge from this offense to take the leadership role on third downs.

i.e. Anyone want to explain to me how good Brees would be without Gates catching TDs and converting third downs?

You give Brees, Alexander instead of Gates and he goes right back to looking like a chump.



I'd love to have Elway and Ashley Lelie on the same team.

[azbroncfan]

Because we have 2 recievers, putz and smith, Somebody get TO on the team next year. I hate the guy but I think shanny and the rest of teh team can keep him in line.

[bloodsunday]

Why do we suck on third downs?

Well, we simply don't have a playmaker anymore. We don't have a Sharpe, Portis, Eddie Mac, young Rod Smith etc.

What we do have is cheap imitations like Lelie, Putz, Alexander, Bell and defenses keying on Rod on third downs. To their credit, the coaches and the OL are getting by with smoke and mirrors but we seriously need just one playmaker to emerge from this offense to take the leadership role on third downs. I agree with you. And Shouldn't that be the QBs job (at least with most good teams)? We have some playmakers -- Rod and Putz have been okay. Charlie Adams has caught the ball when called upon. I don't think KC's weapons (they converted more than 50% yesterday) or even Tom Brady's weapons are any more dangerous than ours.

You brought up San Diego and I think that is a good point. I don't fear them because of Brees. If you can cover Gates, then you have an excellent shot at beating them because he can't make plays on his own. He doesn't have "it". Well that's the same here.

I will say that we are starting to see the limitations of the RB-by-committee. We had a good thing with MA and Bell and now that Dayne has entered the picture it seemed like we couldn't get any rhythm yesterday and Shanny was too quick to pull a back, IMO. I know they all have strenghts and they have all earned it, but rotating more than 2 backs seems silly unless you are running the wishbone. I love Dayne and what he has contributed (I hope he stays next season) but I just don't think that we can afford to give 3 halfbacks playing time.

[fontaine]

I'd love to have Elway and Ashley Lelie on the same team.

Blasphemy!

Elway had a young Rod Smith who could go deep, plus go over the middle and more! He also had a monster in Eddie Mac who put the hurt on DBs. If those guys were playing in today's madden rules (present day Tags-Manning passing rules) then they would be breaking records.

[Ray Finkle]

big surprise, another insightful post by Alec. I always love a guy with his own opinion and is willing to have an open mind about things. Since one person mentioned (almost jokingly and several weeks ago) that Plummer was having an MVP season, he is suddenly beyond criticism.


How is Alec being a dick? After every loss you come out to crap on the pile some more. It is almost like you have a love/hate relationship with the Broncos.....need we bring back your "over the top" rant about the Broncos after the loss to the Giants? They lost a close game in a place where they had been blown out in the last couple of years.

Don't worry about 3rd downs, worry about Green having all day to throw...

[fontaine]

I agree with you. And Shouldn't that be the QBs job (at with most good teams)? We have some playmakers -- Rod and Putz have been okay. Charlie Adams has caught the ball when called upon. I don't think KC's weapons (they converted more than 50% yesterday) or even Tom Brady's weapons are any more dangerous than ours.

I respect most of your takes man, but seriously, 2nd level QBs like Plummer need better skill players. It's on the QB when the offense is built on the QB with studs like Harrison, Wayne, James etc thrown in.

Otherwise, it's like Newton's law. You can't get more out of a machine than what you put in!

[Nomad]

Well actually... I do subsribe to the theory that its the QBs job to make plays when the game counts. But it does take execution by other players as well. Of course it wouldn't hurt to have some road-graders on the OL.

Here is a quote that sums up my position about Jake (from a Chris Mortensen Chat):

http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/chatESPN?event_id=10004


Keep in mind that he is paraphrasing Coaches and GMs (very knowledgable football people). This was not an opinion that I conjured up to get a rile out you guys.

Hardly sounds like a ringing endorsement of Plummer. I think he has showed time and time again that his decision making is shaky. It is forcing us into watering down an offense that was near the top league in 3rd down conversions under Elway. (I know its unfair to compare, but since Lama is suggesting that his play yesterday was 7-esque). The watered down/game management theory has worked well for us for the most part but I just don't believe its going to get us a Super Bowl berth. I know everyone wants to blame the D (and they deserve some blame) but if our Offense manages a 3rd down against NYG after Bailey's pick, that game is over. Our offense managed 0 third down conversion in the 4th quarter yesterday. When you are built to run the ball and control the clock, that ain't good.

It was an NFC game, but that win against the Giants would be huge now. We have no margin for error and the game @Buffalo (which I don't think is going to be easy) has become a must win. We cannot go to San Diego playing for the division. We have to win the next 3 and that's tough to say when you're 9 - 3.

I don't agree with dumbing down or watering down the offense for Plummer. Do you believe it because Mort wrote it? Until Kubiak or Shanny says "we took out half of the playbook this year", I still think this years offense looks like last years with the exception of Plummer pressing less and accepting a sack or punt. I can't see much difference from my couch other than we've run more this year because we've led most of the time.

I agree with you that the entire offense plays a roll in converting on 3rd down, but you prefer to single out Plummer. Taco blamed execution which I would agree with. What you seem to forget about is the plays that Plummer made on his own yesterday to keep drives alive.

[bloodsunday]

I respect most of your takes man, but seriously, 2nd level QBs like Plummer need better skill players. It's on the QB when the offense is built on the QB with studs like Harrison, Wayne, James etc thrown in.

Otherwise, it's like Newton's law. You can't get more out of a machine than what you put in!
Well the big difference between you and most around here is that you'll admit Jake is a second level QB (not an MVP or the second coming of you know who). I happen to agree and that's really all I am saying. My reasoning goes like this:
1) Jake is a second level QB, IMO. (and I think there is plenty of evidence and agreement among eperts on this topic).
2) This team has lacked playmakers that even a 1st level QB like Elway had (such as Sharpe and Portis).
3) Therefore, while we have had a good season thus far, there is no way it ends up well for us (assuming that your goals are higher than just making the playoffs). If we happen to get a home playoff game, then I think there is a pretty good chance that we win. But I think the odds of this team going on the road and winning a playoff game are about zero.

I have kept my standard that this team should be competing for the Super Bowl every year and while they have been a steady franchise, they simply are not a Super Bowl team. Jake is part of that equation. So, we can either upgrade the entire offense or we can stop paying a second level QB first level money. Plus Shanny's track-record came with HoF QBs. He simply hasn't proven he can win (playoff games and Super Bowls) with a system QB and good defense.

[bendog]

Jake can't block for ****. He sucks. shanny and kubes too, they suck. cut em all.

[Nomad]

Well the big difference between you and most around here is that you'll admit Jake is a second level QB (not an MVP or the second coming of you know who). I happen to agree and that's really all I am saying. My reasoning goes like this:
1) Jake is a second level QB, IMO. (and I think there is plenty of evidence and agreement among eperts on this topic).
2) This team has lacked playmakers that even a 1st level QB like Elway had (such as Sharpe and Portis).
3) Therefore, while we have had a good season thus far, there is no way it ends up well for us (assuming that your goals are higher than just making the playoffs). If we happen to get a home playoff game, then I think there is a pretty good chance that we win. But I think the odds of this team going on the road and winning a playoff game are about zero.

I have kept my standard that this team should be competing for the Super Bowl every year and while they have been a steady franchise, they simply are not a Super Bowl team. Jake is part of that equation. So, we can either upgrade the entire offense or we can stop paying a second level QB first level money. Plus Shanny's track-record came with HoF QBs. He simply hasn't proven he can win (playoff games and Super Bowls) with a system QB and good defense.

Please ID those in the "1st level"...

Passer Rating
Rank Player Team Yds Att Cmp TDs Ints Long Rating
1 Peyton Manning IND 2966 358 245 25 8 80 107.6
2 Carson Palmer CIN 3149 399 274 26 7 70 106.6
3 Ben Roethlisberger PIT 1702 197 125 15 7 85 101.5
4 Marc Bulger STL 2297 287 192 14 9 57 94.4
5 Drew Brees SD 2813 368 240 20 11 43 93.9
6 Jake Plummer DEN 2512 343 211 15 6 72 91.2
7 Tom Brady NE 3301 424 264 18 10 71 90.7
8 Byron Leftwich JAC 2123 302 175 15 5 45 89.3
9 Matt Hasselbeck SEA 2606 353 221 14 8 52 88.8
10 Trent Green KC 2947 383 240 13 9 60 87.9

[bloodsunday]

I don't agree with dumbing down or watering down the offense for Plummer. Do you believe it because Mort wrote it? Until Kubiak or Shanny says "we took out half of the playbook this year", I still think this years offense looks like last years with the exception of Plummer pressing less and accepting a sack or punt. I can't see much difference from my couch other than we've run more this year because we've led most of the time.
Shanny would never say such a thing as it would be bad for morale and perhaps even admitting that he made a mistake by signing Plummer.

I don't know Mort from Adam, but as a journalist and media member, I do respect his takes. He's the not the only one acknowledging that just maybe there is more to Jake's play than him actually being a better QB. Did you happen to see CBS's interview with Rod Smith on the topic? It was almost comical. They made minimizing Jake's mistakes the offseason's #1 priority, at least offensively. It shouldn't be a surprise that they are emphasizing the things he does well (and thus de-emphasizing other areas of the playbook) as it is just good coaching. The problem is at what cost is that tradeoff to your ability to be successful on offense. Our own beloved TJ mentioned again yesterday on Countdown about his ability to buy into the Jake Plummer hype. The fear that his success is smoke and mirrors is very real.

I agree with you that the entire offense plays a roll in converting on 3rd down, but you prefer to single out Plummer. Taco blamed execution which I would agree with. What you seem to forget about is the plays that Plummer made on his own yesterday to keep drives alive.
Fontaine's post is exactly how I view things. Jake is a second level QB. You either need to get more playmakers around him, or get a better QB. That's really all I am saying. I am singling him out because its the single most important position in football and there happens to be a correlation between good QB play and team success -- especially when all things are pretty equal (like in the playoffs).

[bloodsunday]

Please ID those in the "1st level"...

Passer Rating
Rank Player Team Yds Att Cmp TDs Ints Long Rating
1 Peyton Manning IND 2966 358 245 25 8 80 107.6
2 Carson Palmer CIN 3149 399 274 26 7 70 106.6
3 Ben Roethlisberger PIT 1702 197 125 15 7 85 101.5
4 Marc Bulger STL 2297 287 192 14 9 57 94.4
5 Drew Brees SD 2813 368 240 20 11 43 93.9
6 Jake Plummer DEN 2512 343 211 15 6 72 91.2
7 Tom Brady NE 3301 424 264 18 10 71 90.7
8 Byron Leftwich JAC 2123 302 175 15 5 45 89.3
9 Matt Hasselbeck SEA 2606 353 221 14 8 52 88.8
10 Trent Green KC 2947 383 240 13 9 60 87.9
Wouldn't it be nice if it was that simple. There are 5 guys on this list that have won a playoff game since Plummer has been here. Two more have won our own division since Plummer has been here. And another looks poised to win a division this year and perhaps a playoff game in only his second season as a starter. Oh yeah and the really good one among them has hung 90 pts on us while our QB managed one-third of that in two playoff meetings against him.

[bendog]

nicollete klaussen sucks too.

[Elway 4 Life]

Playcalling is fine. Execution leaves a lot to be desired across the board.

Really?? So you were ok with the reverse to start the 2nd half?

[bendog]

yeah, I was. And I was ok with running it 3 straight at the goal. It's like passing on first down. Go against tendencies.

come on, you guys are taking a BS thread seriously. Guy's bigger clown than armchair bronco.

[Nomad]

Wouldn't it be nice if it was that simple. There are 5 guys on this list that have won a playoff game since Plummer has been here. Two more have won our own division since Plummer has been here. And another looks poised to win a division this year and perhaps a playoff game in only his second season as a starter. Oh yeah and the really good one among them has hung 90 pts on us while our QB managed one-third of that in two playoff meetings against him.

Did you answer the "simple" question? I just grabbed the top ten passer (by rating through yesterday as a starting point. Use whatever list you want.

Palmer and Manning are #1 picks and are good, no doubt.

Plummer (the Broncos) look like they will win the division this year baring a meltdown, so you're saying Brees=Green=Plummer???

[Nomad]

yeah, I was. And I was ok with running it 3 straight at the goal. It's like passing on first down. Go against tendencies.

come on, you guys are taking a BS thread seriously. Guy's bigger clown than armchair bronco.

Thanks for talking me off the ledge Bendog...BS's BS hit a chord with me this AM.

[Taco John]

Holy cow, I completely forgot about Armchair Bronco.

[Taco John]

Really?? So you were ok with the reverse to start the 2nd half?



No one is ever fine with a reverse when it fails. But to answer your question, yes, I was fine with it. Misdirection has been our bread and butter with KC for a long time, and I don't fault Shanahan with making it a big part of the game plan. Some of them worked, some of them didn't. You never know until you try. So to answer your question, yes, I was ok with a first down misdirection shot.

[bendog]

were/are Armchair and Buster T Bronco the same person?

[Taco John]

were/are Armchair and Buster T Bronco the same person?



I had always thought so... but whoever it was always refused that it was true. Their style was pretty similar though...

I guess Strand hangs out here though, but mostly in the politics forum. He's been a good citizen so far.

[bendog]

Armchair and/or Buster are on SSJ's board, but more amusing. I troll there, and occassionally post. I put my volunteer thread over there on Fridays. I think BS is actually a serious poster. Armchair/Buster used to really pull my chain. LOL

[bronco militia]

Armchair and/or Buster are on SSJ's board, but more amusing. I troll there, and occassionally post. I put my volunteer thread over there on Fridays. I think BS is actually a serious poster. Armchair/Buster used to really pull my chain. LOL


no doubt.....if anyone thinks bloodsunday is armchair/buster, then I am too...
but you're fighting an uphill battle trying to convince the Orangemane that Jake's not a top 5QB.

[bendog]

hmmmm, top 5. ManningI, Bradey, Rollthisburger, Palmer, Faver (but he sucked yesterday, all by himself, he just sucked, in the time I watched that game) ManningII ....

Jake's not the problem.

[Mediator12]

[QUOTE=Ray Finkle]How is Alec being a dick? After every loss you come out to crap on the pile some more. It is almost like you have a love/hate relationship with the Broncos.....need we bring back your "over the top" rant about the Broncos after the loss to the Giants? They lost a close game in a place where they had been blown out in the last couple of years.

Don't worry about 3rd downs, worry about Green having all day to throw...


Here is a novel concept, let's worry about both! Way too much one sided linear analysis and blame. Everything affects the outcome of the games and if one specific thing was better maybe things are different. Fixing weaknesses however should never be and either/or proposition.

[Ray Finkle]

[QUOTE=Ray Finkle]How is Alec being a dick? After every loss you come out to crap on the pile some more. It is almost like you have a love/hate relationship with the Broncos.....need we bring back your "over the top" rant about the Broncos after the loss to the Giants? They lost a close game in a place where they had been blown out in the last couple of years.

Don't worry about 3rd downs, worry about Green having all day to throw...


Here is a novel concept, let's worry about both! Way too much one sided linear analysis and blame. Everything affects the outcome of the games and if one specific thing was better maybe things are different. Fixing weaknesses however should never be and either/or proposition.

I agree Med but I saw the Green being able to throw all day as more important....

[Mediator12]

Oh and for the record, there is no one single Problem but a whole bunch of correctable little ones.

[Rohirrim]

Why do we suck on third downs?

Well, we simply don't have a playmaker anymore. We don't have a Sharpe, Portis, Eddie Mac, young Rod Smith etc.

What we do have is cheap imitations like Lelie, Putz, Alexander, Bell and defenses keying on Rod on third downs. To their credit, the coaches and the OL are getting by with smoke and mirrors but we seriously need just one playmaker to emerge from this offense to take the leadership role on third downs.

i.e. Anyone want to explain to me how good Brees would be without Gates catching TDs and converting third downs?

You give Brees, Alexander instead of Gates and he goes right back to looking like a chump.

Exactly! Imagine this team with a Hines Ward or a Lee Evans. They could get the crucial third downs even with the dumb QB.

[Mediator12]

Why do we suck on third downs?

Well, we simply don't have a playmaker anymore. We don't have a Sharpe, Portis, Eddie Mac, young Rod Smith etc.

What we do have is cheap imitations like Lelie, Putz, Alexander, Bell and defenses keying on Rod on third downs. To their credit, the coaches and the OL are getting by with smoke and mirrors but we seriously need just one playmaker to emerge from this offense to take the leadership role on third downs.

i.e. Anyone want to explain to me how good Brees would be without Gates catching TDs and converting third downs?

You give Brees, Alexander instead of Gates and he goes right back to looking like a chump.

I agree that Gates makes a huge difference. However, they are way more unpredictable with Cam Cameron calling plays. Kubiak and Shanahan have not been anywhere as diverse in getting the ball to other receivers on third down. Jake still stares down Rod Smith almost every third down play like the Pick to Mitchell yesterday. Jake pump fakes to Smith then throws late over the middle when Mitchell left Putzier WIDE open to make that pick.

They need to get other WR's and TE's in the gameplan on third down's. Putz does a great Job when called but he does not get enough chances IMHO.

[yavoon]

Exactly! Imagine this team with a Hines Ward or a Lee Evans. They could get the crucial third downs even with the dumb QB.

this hatingon rod smith? I mean if rod is anything its a posession receiver!

[bendog]

rod smith sucks. bring in lee evans.

[Rascal]

Here is all the failed third downs:

3rd and 18 at DEN 35 (14:29) (Shotgun) R.Dayne up the middle to DEN 41 for 6 yards (D.Johnson).

Not much you can do about that after you give up an 8 yard sack. This one can be blamed on the line for the sack if blame must be assigned though.

3rd and 2 at KC 34 (:04) M.Anderson up the middle to KC 37 for -3 yards (R.Sims).

This is a combination of horrible play calling and poor run blocking IMO. We should have at least tried a hail marry, FG or something to at least try to score instead of just giving up. Shanny seemed to focused on the missed offsides call then calling a good play.

3rd and 20 at DEN 10 (13:40) (Shotgun) J.Plummer pass intended for R.Smith INTERCEPTED by K.Mitchell at DEN 20. K.Mitchell to DEN 20 for no gain (R.Smith).

We weren't going to get a first anyway, but poor decision on Jake. Prior to that we had a failed reverse for -11 yards...next play 1 yard run. poor coaching decision as well.

3rd and 4 at KC 4 (3:47) M.Anderson up the middle to KC 4 for no gain (E.Hicks). Poor blocking.

3rd and 11 at KC 31 (14:17) (Shotgun) J.Plummer pass to S.Alexander to KC 22 for 9 yards (K.Mitchell).

KC dropped back and wasn't going to give up a first so jake took what he could and moved us into FG range (remember Elam's injury and supposed wind). No blame here IMO.

3rd and 8 at DEN 25 (9:06) (Shotgun) J.Plummer pass incomplete to S.Alexander (K.Mitchell).

I don't remember this play but I'll go with Plummer since he had an imcomplete pass on second down as well.

3rd and 3 at DEN 45 (2:55) J.Plummer pass to K.Johnson to DEN 47 for 2 yards (K.Mitchell).

Not sure who to blame on this but then we failed the fourth down attempt and not sure to blame MA or line on that. I'll give this a push to everyone.

So adding them up:
Line: 1+1+1
Coaching: 1+1
Jake: 1+1

So Jake and coaching with 2 and line with 3…I’ll go with the line.

Anybody want to guess how KC did on third down against our vaulted defense?

[Rascal]

One was a third and 16 in which we stopped them. Another was a 3rd and 1 in which we stopped Dee Brown after he subbed in for a tired Johnson. And the last one was with :54 seconds left after which they kneeled on the ball to run out the clock anyway.

Our defense forced two punts all game to go along with two interceptions. You aren't going wo win many games when your defense can only stop the opposing team 4 times.

[bendog]

Lynch's fault.

[Mediator12]

One was a third and 16 in which we stopped them. Another was a 3rd and 1 in which we stopped Dee Brown after he subbed in for a tired Johnson. And the last one was with :54 seconds left after which they kneeled on the ball to run out the clock anyway.

Our defense forced two punts all game to go along with two interceptions. You aren't going wo win many games when your defense can only stop the opposing team 4 times.

Man, you are on a mission today aren't you ??? ;D

KC had ten possessions and failed to score on Five. One possession was within FG range and they actually held inside the red zone. So, that is really four drives for scores out of ten. Not great for sure, but Third down % and red Zone percentage were the real killers yesterday for both sides.

[Rascal]

Everybody seems to determined to blame all of our woes on the offense and while they have their problems the defense is just as much to blame and definetly for this loss.

Running out the clock counts as a failed possession ??? They got a first down and ran out the clock...game over. So KC had 9, not 10, and failed to score on 4 (they scored nonetheless). Plus it's hard to score in the fourth quarter when you are not on the field. We had a three and out and the turnover on downs. KC had the ball for 12+ minutes in the fourth quarter...you aren't going to win very many games like that. The offense went stagnant and the defense continued to be soft butter.

Our red zone D has been attrocious this year. What really aggrevates me is that our D did not force one three and out.

[broncofan2438]

It seems most of the voting is going towards the poor play calling

[broncofan2438]

D fence must step up for anyone to think about comming close to stopping payton

[The Big E]

Are we talking 3rd down problems on offense or defense? Seems it should be about both.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Third downs aside, I thought you guys should have run a naked boot on that 4th down. No way KC would have stopped it.

[Mediator12]

Everybody seems to determined to blame all of our woes on the offense and while they have their problems the defense is just as much to blame and definetly for this loss.

Running out the clock counts as a failed possession ??? They got a first down and ran out the clock...game over. So KC had 9, not 10, and failed to score on 4 (they scored nonetheless). Plus it's hard to score in the fourth quarter when you are not on the field. We had a three and out and the turnover on downs. KC had the ball for 12+ minutes in the fourth quarter...you aren't going to win very many games like that. The offense went stagnant and the defense continued to be soft butter.

Our red zone D has been attrocious this year. What really aggrevates me is that our D did not force one three and out.

There were 11 possessions credited Rascal, with ST's causing the fumble before the half.

Now, I am going to explain the last three possessions that inevitably decided the game.

The score is tied and Darrent Williams Picks Trent Green. DJ Williams makes a pathetic attempt to block Green or its a pick Six and the defense gets the lead again in a tight game. The offense goes Five and out from the KC 44 with one first down to kick the go ahead FG. Took 2:40 off the Clock.

Chiefs score the go ahead TD and the offense goes three and out in less than 42 seconds after KC scored. Enough said.

Defense falters again but still holds KC from scoring. They give the offense the ball and the opportunity to win game from the Den 25 with three minutes and 36 seconds to go. Offense promptly hands the ball back after failing on 3rd and 3 and 4th and 1. Drive was 5 plays with one first down in 1:31.

The whole reason I am complaining about third down conversions is that the Broncos are 10/46 in the fourth Quarter for 22%. This includes 0/3 yesterday with the game on the line. It does not include the failed fourth and 1 conversion. In the two losses since MIA, The Broncos had 0/7 on third downs, 2 first downs, and 7 minutes of possession on 7 drives not including the final possession yesterday with 3 seconds remaining. With the game on the line, the offense has averaged 4 plays for a minute of possession and 3 points scored on a twenty yard FG drive.

So, I guess the reason that there is such hatred for the defense around here is that if they do not play perfect in the fourth Quarter of close games then Denver will surely lose since the offense can not be counted on with the game on the line. They blew the Giants game in the fourth and they blew the fourth quarter at the Chiefs by giving up a single TD. F***ing Bastards!

[Spider]

We continue to stink up the joint on 3rd down (although we have moved from 2nd to last all the way up to 29th thanks to Pitts and Chicago). What is the problem?

I have heard several theories:
1) Our "system" offensive line and "technical" running game can't get it done when the rubber meets the road.

2) Many football analysts will tell you that 3rd down is the QBs down. He must make a play.

3) Shanny's play calling is either getting stale or conservative.
or #4 .... the Defense we are playing against has Pros on it also ?
but then this is a wide open question isnt it , i mean 3 rd and long , 3 rd and short , Penalties on 3 rd down etc..........
you realy dont want an answer , you just want to take pop shots @ 9-3 team .....

[Mediator12]

or #4 .... the Defense we are playing against has Pros on it also ?
but then this is a wide open question isnt it , i mean 3 rd and long , 3 rd and short , Penalties on 3 rd down etc..........
you realy dont want an answer , you just want to take pop shots @ 9-3 team .....

Possibly spider. I can not try to infer his intent. But the fact remains that this team is three or four third down conversions in the fourth Quarter from being 11-1 with two more road wins and having almost locked up the AFCW.

[Jetmeck]

I respect most of your takes man, but seriously, 2nd level QBs like Plummer need better skill players. It's on the QB when the offense is built on the QB with studs like Harrison, Wayne, James etc thrown in.

Otherwise, it's like Newton's law. You can't get more out of a machine than what you put in!

Plummer may be second level , regardless of who he was throwing into the end zone and had it picked. He should have never thrown it, ran it or thrown it away.How many times do you have to tell the guy not to try to force it in ? I agree on the talent but that wasn't the problem on that Int.

[Spider]

Possibly spider. I can not try to infer his intent. But the fact remains that this team is three or four third down conversions in the fourth Quarter from being 11-1 with two more road wins and having almost locked up the AFCW.
;D My point is there is a huge difference in a 3 rd and 3 as to a 3rd and 5 or more , his question realy doesnt break it down .........
I will say this , I hate a streak a streak is called a streak for a reason , they never last , I would rather hit the bumps in the road now when they can be fixed then in playoffs and go home early .......
Football is alot like Chess in this regaurd , you learn more from a loss then a win .......

[Play2win]

Sorry if this was brought up earlier in this thread, but tonight I am not going to read through all these posts...

The 4th quarter non-conversion on 4th down by MA should tell you all you need to know. Its all about our OLINE. Our Oline kicks ass in production, but when it comes to a tough yard or two, WHOA, we can have problems...

[Play2win]

;D My point is there is a huge difference in a 3 rd and 3 as to a 3rd and 5 or more , his question realy doesnt break it down .........
I will say this , I hate a streak a streak is called a streak for a reason , they never last , I would rather hit the bumps in the road now when they can be fixed then in playoffs and go home early .......
Football is alot like Chess in this regaurd , you learn more from a loss then a win .......
This is SO TRUE in more ways than one... ;D

[Spider]

Sorry if this was brought up earlier in this thread, but tonight I am not going to read through all these posts...

The 4th quarter non-conversion on 4th down by MA should tell you all you need to know. Its all about our OLINE. Our Oline kicks ass in production, but when it comes to a tough yard or two, WHOA, we can have problems...
well 1 thing bob has got right , MA ran to the wrong hole , the yardage was there ........ Sad but true , so do we trash the system cause Anderson read the wrong read ? or do we coach up Anderson ? ........

[Spider]

This is SO TRUE in more ways than one... ;D
;D it is painfull going over a loss and seeing how bad you went rainman

[Play2win]

well 1 thing bob has got right , MA ran to the wrong hole , the yardage was there ........ Sad but true , so do we trash the system cause Anderson read the wrong read ? or do we coach up Anderson ? ........
No we just get a little more PHYSICALITY to our line...

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

well 1 thing bob has got right , MA ran to the wrong hole , the yardage was there ........ Sad but true , so do we trash the system cause Anderson read the wrong read ? or do we coach up Anderson ? ........

Things happen much faster when you are on the field than when you watch from your Lazy Boy with your TIVO

[Spider]

Things happen much faster when you are on the field than when you watch from your Lazy Boy with your TIVO
yes sir , I am not faulting Anderson by any means , Just pointing out the hole was there ..........

[bloodsunday]

;D My point is there is a huge difference in a 3 rd and 3 as to a 3rd and 5 or more , his question realy doesnt break it down .........
I will say this , I hate a streak a streak is called a streak for a reason , they never last , I would rather hit the bumps in the road now when they can be fixed then in playoffs and go home early .......
Football is alot like Chess in this regaurd , you learn more from a loss then a win .......
Every team faces a series of different thrid down situations in a series of different games and settings. The FACT is that we are 29th in the league. Why? If I were gonna take a position on your statements I would say this; we have the 2nd best running game in the league. Shouldn't we have an advantage on every third down?

I am not taking shots at this team for no reason. 3rd down conversions are a very important stat in football and I believe that this offense needs to stay on the field more to protect a defense that is leaking oil. The #1 characteristic of this team is running the ball and TOP. If we don't do that then it puts our defense in a spot that they seem to usually fail. (Did anyone else find that stat they flashed Sunday about us giving up TDs on something like 11 of the last 15 redzone attempts by the oppenent appauling?). If we have any chance to beat a good offense in the playoffs (San Diego, KC, Cincy, and mostly Indy) then we must find a way to convert more third downs.

[Ozzy7455]

Lack of playmaking receivers, Smith is the only reliable third down threat and teams know this so the Broncos are pretty weak when it is 3 and more the 2 yards because he is the only reliable recieving threat.

[Spider]

Every team faces a series of different thrid down situations in a series of different games and settings. The FACT is that we are 29th in the league. Why? If I were gonna take a position on your statements I would say this; we have the 2nd best running game in the league. Shouldn't we have an advantage on every third down?

I am not taking shots at this team for no reason. 3rd down conversions are a very important stat in football and I believe that this offense needs to stay on the field more to protect a defense that is leaking oil. The #1 characteristic of this team is running the ball and TOP. If we don't do that then it puts our defense in a spot that they seem to usually fail. (Did anyone else find that stat they flashed Sunday about us giving up TDs on something like 11 of the last 15 redzone attempts by the oppenent appauling?). If we have any chance to beat a good offense in the playoffs (San Diego, KC, Cincy, and mostly Indy) then we must find a way to convert more third downs.

wow ...... well alot of it has to do with the scoreboard , we build up big leads , teams know we wont risk alot on 3 rd downs , I noticed you picked out the 4 th quarter , ok ..... It is clear to everyone that when we get a lead going in the half , we get conservititve on offense , everybody sees that , and if we can see it , the Dcord and defense we are playing see it also , do you think they are a bunch of dummies ?
do you realy expect a team to play the pass on 3 rd and short or run ?
Remember when we did throw on 3 rd and short ? vs the Pats ? Killed the clock , everyone was yelling and screaming run the ball , he does run it , then genuis fans come out proclaiming a problem .......
Jake is just about there , why not let him build up more confidence , instead of putting Jake in a bad position ?
As for Defense giving up alot of Touch downs , you failed to mention how many of those were "Garbage TD's " but then I think you already know this as with 90% of the board ........... Taking pop shots @ 9-3 team as I see it ....
BTW , be good to see you posting this after a win .................Yeah I agree it wouldnt fly ......

[Cito Pelon]

Well, I'm hoping for the best for this current team. They have it in them I believe to take the Division. But I want to see more digging in and taking games in the 4th quarter. I'm not in the locker room or on the sidelines, so it's pretty hard to put a finger on why this team lets leads get diminished with regularity in the late-3rd q and throughout the 4th q. There's something about this team that still says "soft" to me.

From the stats I see that the first downs and TOP are fairly equal in the late-3rd through the 4th q, but the Broncs are being handily outscored in the late-3rd through the 4th q. That's soft to me, and I don't like it. If you play strong to start, play strong to finish.

[BroncoSoja]

so you're saying Brees=Green=Plummer???

No maybe he is saying those players dont have to have a Offense for idiots installed in order to play decent.. We have seen what happens when the broncos open up the playbook and take the leash off of Plummer in the last two games... Now its time to put it back on and bring the Offense for idiots back to play. Plummer has one if not TEH highest INT/TD ratio of any QB EVA!!!!! Lets see you post those stats...

[watermock]

I totally dissagree that the offense is dumbed down...they are using Lelie totally wrong...all Jake looks to are Rod and Putz...and Putz should be the third read...lest I remind you, the great Favre broke the 20 pick mark, but you nary hear a mention of it...he seems to have a free pass...

Jake threw a bad pick at a bad time...it's not like we didn't know he was capable of throwing bad passes...he was very off his game...a reciever that doesn't become invisible like Lelie might help him...why are Putz and Rod making all the big catches for first downs...yeah, Lelie is good for two long passes a game, but it's moving the chains that wins game...let's not confuse Lelie with a TO or young Rice...

I'm in a bad mood, but Lelie being soft has been an issue for 4 years...with 1/10th the snaps, Devoe makes as many big plays...it's a fact...

[watermock]

What Jake needs is a reliable #2 reciever. Period, end of problem...I'm convinced Lelie will be let go unless we are afraid of his landing in Indy...we should of gotten Joe veryviciou or that Giants wr who I can't remember, but I wanted to sign him as well instead of a washed up Rice...god...if he couldn't stick in the NFC west where could he?

[Gcver2ver3]

What Jake needs is a reliable #2 reciever. Period, end of problem...I'm convinced Lelie will be let go unless we are afraid of his landing in Indy...we should of gotten Joe veryviciou or that Giants wr who I can't remember, but I wanted to sign him as well instead of a washed up Rice...god...if he couldn't stick in the NFC west where could he?



boy you are really down on lelie.....

[Mediator12]

Every team faces a series of different thrid down situations in a series of different games and settings. The FACT is that we are 29th in the league. Why? If I were gonna take a position on your statements I would say this; we have the 2nd best running game in the league. Shouldn't we have an advantage on every third down?

I am not taking shots at this team for no reason. 3rd down conversions are a very important stat in football and I believe that this offense needs to stay on the field more to protect a defense that is leaking oil. The #1 characteristic of this team is running the ball and TOP. If we don't do that then it puts our defense in a spot that they seem to usually fail. (Did anyone else find that stat they flashed Sunday about us giving up TDs on something like 11 of the last 15 redzone attempts by the oppenent appauling?). If we have any chance to beat a good offense in the playoffs (San Diego, KC, Cincy, and mostly Indy) then we must find a way to convert more third downs.

I have been after the Red Zone BS for about five weeks or so. The offense has converted much better recently, but the defense is full of Crap. I really do not get it either. Last year teams ran against a weak DL, this year they are throwing against a struggling secondary. I made a comment to njbil before the season that unfortunately has held very true for the Broncos. Young secondaries struggle more in the Red Zone than the rest of the field.

Somehow, they are picking up blitzes and the pressure is nonexistent on the QB in the Red Zone. I really would like to see more CB blitzes down there since the safeties have less ground to cover. Also, more man press coverage. Screw the off coverage down there. Smack them in the mouth and make them make a play. Come on LC its time to wean the Babes off the tit partner ;D

[Cito Pelon]

It's strange how Denver in the 4th Q can move the chains, do well in TOP in the 4th Q but not score a lot of points in the 4th Q. A little more 4th Q toughness and discipline can get this team over the top. I can't see too many other things they are doing wrong.

[Cito Pelon]

I have been after the Red Zone BS for about five weeks or so. The offense has converted much better recently, but the defense is full of Crap. I really do not get it either. Last year teams ran against a weak DL, this year they are throwing against a struggling secondary. I made a comment to njbil before the season that unfortunately has held very true for the Broncos. Young secondaries struggle more in the Red Zone than the rest of the field.

Somehow, they are picking up blitzes and the pressure is nonexistent on the QB in the Red Zone. I really would like to see more CB blitzes down there since the safeties have less ground to cover. Also, more man press coverage. Screw the off coverage down there. Smack them in the mouth and make them make a play. Come on LC its time to wean the Babes off the tit partner ;D

That's the other side of the 4th Q blues. Teams are getting TD's in the 4th Q against the Denver D. Hard-ass Championship level teams don't let teams back into the game in the 4th Q after building double-digit leads. Hardass Championship-level teams don't sit at .500 on the road.

But there is still 4 games left. 2 at home, 2 on the road. This team I think has to make an identity as a strong finishing team by going 3-1 minimum.

[Bronco LB 59]

I am completely baffled by the 4th quarter woes that Mediator and Cito Pelon mentioned.

The Broncos live, practice and play at elevation 5280. The 4th quarter blues are totally unacceptable. This should be the best conditioned team in the NFL, home or away. Denver is not taking advantage of their expanded lung capacity!

[Cito Pelon]

Yeah, it's baffling 52. They get that ironed out, and this is the most intimidating team in the NFL.

[wabbit]

There is some good news; The Broncos are about 75% on 4th down.

3rd down conversions have been an issue for a few years here. With that kind of consistent inefficiency, it would seem there's a play-calling issue with a play-execution question running a distant second.

[dnvrbrncos]

There is some good news; The Broncos are about 75% on 4th down.

I was just fixing to point that out wabbit. Here's some other tidbits:

The league average for third downs is 37.7%. The Broncos are at 33.1%. The Broncos have the 6th fewest third down attempts. We are third in yards per play at 5.8. We are eighth in first downs per game at 20.4 per game. The league leader is Indy with 23.5.

What's the big deal again?

[Nomad]

No maybe he is saying those players dont have to have a Offense for idiots installed in order to play decent.. We have seen what happens when the broncos open up the playbook and take the leash off of Plummer in the last two games... Now its time to put it back on and bring the Offense for idiots back to play. Plummer has one if not TEH highest INT/TD ratio of any QB EVA!!!!! Lets see you post those stats...

Maybe you're seeing something different than me, but the offense looked the same to me the last couple of games (although in Dallas, we weren't able to run the ball as effectively). Leash...Offense for idiots...I can't answer what the Broncos are doing differently compared to last year in terms of play calling, but I've read that what Shanny worked with Plummer on is making better reads and decisions.

This has been posted before...


Plummer (in his 9th year) TD to INT ratio for his career is 147:147
Elway TD to INT ratio thru his 9th year 148:140

Worst qb's EVA???

[watermock]

Plummer had an off day but has been solid...

The stat on Elway is misleading, he was way too often asked to pull a win out of Reeves stupid ass...sometimes he could, sometimes he couldn't...altho I admire Reeves as a legend, he was idiotic to the point of making Pubiak blush...for like 7 years, it was Sammy Winder up the middle to start the game for two yards...he never used Willhite properly, and blew alot of games by being way to conservative with a playmaking QB getting more and more frustrated...when Reeves tried to ship Elway off, and drafted a freaking SOPHMORE QB, I couldn't believe it...and he showed Shanahan the door...that's when Reeves found out who's team it really was...then we had to suffer thru Wade's befuddled look until we got lucky and the genius Al Davis fired Shanahan, and he was brought back...Imagine a decade of Tommy Maddox and Reeves...

[Mediator12]

There is some good news; The Broncos are about 75% on 4th down.

3rd down conversions have been an issue for a few years here. With that kind of consistent inefficiency, it would seem there's a play-calling issue with a play-execution question running a distant second.

The third down % correlates to the inability to execute the necessary plays at the right time. It is even more atrocious in the fourth quarter where they are a miserable 22% with not having consecutive third down conversions since the MIA game.

For all the talk of this offense being "dumbed down", people seem a little to sure that it is not happening. Shanahan has always ran the same types of plays just out of different formations. Having only a few sets of eligible third down plays comes down to execution. Two of the three third down conversions at the Chiefs were second or third options in the play. This is where Denver falls well short of the mark. The inability to get the ball to the open receiver when the primary receiver is covered. I would much rather see Jake tuck it and run more and then throw deep more on third down's in order to loosen the under coverages they are getting consistently.

[Lidderer]

The stat on Elway is misleading, he was way too often asked to pull a win out of Reeves stupid ass

You could replace 'Elway' with 'Plummer', and 'Reeves' with 'Tobin'/'McGinnis' too.

[ro_50]

We have no playmakers or gamebreakers.

[Rock Chalk]

The third down % correlates to the inability to execute the necessary plays at the right time. It is even more atrocious in the fourth quarter where they are a miserable 22% with not having consecutive third down conversions since the MIA game.

For all the talk of this offense being "dumbed down", people seem a little to sure that it is not happening. Shanahan has always ran the same types of plays just out of different formations. Having only a few sets of eligible third down plays comes down to execution. Two of the three third down conversions at the Chiefs were second or third options in the play. This is where Denver falls well short of the mark. The inability to get the ball to the open receiver when the primary receiver is covered. I would much rather see Jake tuck it and run more and then throw deep more on third down's in order to loosen the under coverages they are getting consistently.
Hey Mediator. Do some analysis for me, because Im way too lazy.

Go back and see on 3rd downs that failed, how many were for 7+ yards.

Then compare that to other teams in the league in similar circumstances.

[fontaine]

For all the talk of this offense being "dumbed down", people seem a little to sure that it is not happening. Shanahan has always ran the same types of plays just out of different formations. Having only a few sets of eligible third down plays comes down to execution. Two of the three third down conversions at the Chiefs were second or third options in the play. This is where Denver falls well short of the mark. The inability to get the ball to the open receiver when the primary receiver is covered. I would much rather see Jake tuck it and run more and then throw deep more on third down's in order to loosen the under coverages they are getting consistently.

That's easier said than done. Who exactly does Jake throw to if Rod is covered? The last thing we need is Jake running the ball on third downs, he'll get killed.

I don't know how Putz is doing at getting open on third downs and how good his route running is but I know Lelie is useless on third downs or anything less than deep passes because his timing and routes get thrown off too easily. There's no offense in the league that counts on it's slot WR on crucial plays and ours is no different especially with a bunch of first year projects like Devoe, and Adams.

Apart from that there's only the RBs catching the ball on third downs and this was the only area where there was significant room for improvement. That's why all offseason I constantly posted that the biggest margin of improvement on execution would come from our RBs catching the ball in the flat on a 3rd and short play but Anderson isn't quick enough to shed LB/S on coverage. Tatum was the only guy I thought good enough and fast enough but for some reason his snaps are severally limited. I put numerous posts about this but our RBs aren't natural pass catchers of the ball.

Across the board we have negligible talent at the wideout position apart from Rod so what do we expect?

[Rock Chalk]

That's easier said than done. Who exactly does Jake throw to if Rod is covered? The last thing we need is Jake running the ball on third downs, he'll get killed.

I don't know how Putz is doing at getting open on third downs and how good his route running is but I know Lelie is useless on third downs or anything less than deep passes because his timing and routes get thrown off too easily. There's no offense in the league that counts on it's slot WR on crucial plays and ours is no different especially with a bunch of first year projects like Devoe, and Adams.

Apart from that there's only the RBs catching the ball on third downs and this was the only area where there was significant room for improvement. That's why all offseason I constantly posted that the biggest margin of improvement on execution would come from our RBs catching the ball in the flat on a 3rd and short play but Anderson isn't quick enough to shed LB/S on coverage. Tatum was the only guy I thought good enough and fast enough but for some reason his snaps are severally limited. I put numerous posts about this but our RBs aren't natural pass catchers of the ball.

Across the board we have negligible talent at the wideout position apart from Rod so what do we expect?
Jeb has come up more than a few times for us on 3rd downs. In fact, he should see the ball more often IMO.

[Mediator12]

Hey Mediator. Do some analysis for me, because Im way too lazy.

Go back and see on 3rd downs that failed, how many were for 7+ yards.

Then compare that to other teams in the league in similar circumstances.

I will be happy to do that once finals are over alec, right now I am taking a study break.

I do know this, Putz was the recipient of both those plays. He is consistently getting open on third downs and is great after the catch. Of his 31 catches 24 are for first downs. 10 of those were thrown short of the first down and Putz has gotten the yardage. He is not open every play, but he is open more often than Rod and Lelie combined IMHO. As many have said, he should be the second option more often than not if Rod is covered, but he rarely gets looks unless the play breaks down.

[Lidderer]

The third down % correlates to the inability to execute the necessary plays at the right time. It is even more atrocious in the fourth quarter where they are a miserable 22% with not having consecutive third down conversions since the MIA game.


so true.

Our D gives up 3rd downs in the 4th quarter 45% of the time! That conversion percentage would be good enough for 2nd in the NFL. So basically our D makes other offenses look like the Colts come the 4th quarter.

[Mediator12]

so true.

Our D gives up 3rd downs in the 4th quarter 45% of the time! That conversion percentage would be good enough for 2nd in the NFL. So basically our D makes other offenses look like the Colts come the 4th quarter.

Ouch!

That really makes my point even worse. This team is the worst executing team in the fourth quarter on both sides of the ball. So much for a fresh DL applying the pressure late in the game! Man 'em up Coyer when it counts!

[Nomad]

You could replace 'Elway' with 'Plummer', and 'Reeves' with 'Tobin'/'McGinnis' too.

Bingo!

note: I liked both coaches, but that Organization kills both players and coaches (execpt that douche Buddy Ryan).

[Lidderer]

Hey Mediator. Do some analysis for me, because Im way too lazy.

Go back and see on 3rd downs that failed, how many were for 7+ yards.

Then compare that to other teams in the league in similar circumstances.

Of the 41 3rd down situations we've had in the 4th quarter, 21 of them have been 3rd and 7 or longer. That can't be good.

[fontaine]

I will be happy to do that once finals are over alec, right now I am taking a study break.

I do know this, Putz was the recipient of both those plays. He is consistently getting open on third downs and is great after the catch. Of his 31 catches 24 are for first downs. 10 of those were thrown short of the first down and Putz has gotten the yardage. He is not open every play, but he is open more often than Rod and Lelie combined IMHO. As many have said, he should be the second option more often than not if Rod is covered, but he rarely gets looks unless the play breaks down.

Good luck in your finals.

I do hope they increase the looks Putz is getting because he's a big target with excellent hands and doesn't really drop the ball. I frankly don't know why more passes aren't thrown in his direction. The only thing I can come up with is maybe because he's splitting snaps with Alexander and seeing the field only half the times. If that's the case, hands up all of you that would like to see more two TE sets at the expense of our third WR or even Lelie?!!!!!

It is encouraging that our players are tracking back once Jake scrambles. I've seen Jeb do it a lot whenever Jake is in trouble and it shows a lot of awareness on Jeb's part.

[Rock Chalk]

Of the 41 3rd down situations we've had in the 4th quarter, 21 of them have been 3rd and 7 or longer. That can't be good.
So just over 50% are for 7+ yards (4th quarter).

That right there is the reason our 3rd down percentage is real low.

How many of those 7+ yrd 3rd downs were converted? Conversely, how many of the <7 yrd 3rd downs were converted?

Which begs the question, why are we getting stuck in 3rd and long in the 4th quarter? Reasons vary but IMO the biggest cause of this is primarily the fact that we have mostly been pretty far ahead in the 4th quarter and have play called conservatively.

[Lidderer]

Of the 41 3rd down situations we've had in the 4th quarter, 21 of them have been 3rd and 7 or longer. That can't be good.

Also, 17 of those 21 3rd and 7+ situations have been failures. Which means that when the Denver offense faces a 3rd and 6 or less they succeed 30% of the time--Ortonesque.

Regardless of the distance, we don't fare well in the 4th on 3rd.

[Rock Chalk]

Also, 17 of those 21 3rd and 7+ situations have been failures. Which means that when the Denver offense faces a 3rd and 6 or less they succeed 30% of the time--Ortonesque.

Regardless of the distance, we don't fare well in the 4th on 3rd.

OK stat man. Let's get to it. In games that were close in the 4th quarter, how have we done? Compared to games that were not so close in the 4th quarter (2+ scores)

[Mediator12]

Also, 17 of those 21 3rd and 7+ situations have been failures. Which means that when the Denver offense faces a 3rd and 6 or less they succeed 30% of the time--Ortonesque.

Regardless of the distance, we don't fare well in the 4th on 3rd.

Plus, the defense tries to protect the leads by keeping things in front of them and hoping for a third down stop somewhere on the drive. That allows a much higher yards per average play than normal and much shorter distance to convert on third downs. Both do not lend themselves well to getting the offense off the field on third down. I sincerely wish they would not take that backwards philosophy defensively in the fourth quarter.

[Lidderer]

OK stat man. Let's get to it. In games that were close in the 4th quarter, how have we done? Compared to games that were not so close in the 4th quarter (2+ scores)

UP BY 13+

3rd and 6 or less: 2-for-9(22%)
3rd and 7 or more: 1-for-3(33%

so i'm pretty sure that means...

GAME WITHIN 12 points:

3rd and 6 or less: 4-for-11(36%)
3rd and 7 or more: 3-for-18(16%)

[Mediator12]

UP BY 13+

3rd and 6 or less: 2-for-9(22%)
3rd and 7 or more: 1-for-3(33%

so i'm pretty sure that means...

GAME WITHIN 12 points:

3rd and 6 or less: 4-for-11(36%)
3rd and 7 or more: 3-for-18(16%)

And in all three losses they were 0/3 so a total of 0/9 on third downs. Therefore, my comments in an earlier thread that stated they were 3 or 4 third down conversions from 11-1. Same thing applies to the defense, they are 3 or 4 stops from being 11-1 too. The play that really pissed me off from the Chiefs last game was the third and 5 swing pass to Johnson on their 1st third down conversion of the 4th quarter after TD drive. He should have been stopped way short but Ferguson was late.

[Alkazar]

I blame Elam

he sucks
I'll have to go with the "It's all Brian's fault". Obviously he is still haunting this team.::)

[bloodsunday]

BTW , be good to see you posting this after a win .................Yeah I agree it wouldnt fly ......
Go back and read some of my posts. I have been saying this for at least 6 weeks -- most of them wins.

[bloodsunday]

Somehow, they are picking up blitzes and the pressure is nonexistent on the QB in the Red Zone. I really would like to see more CB blitzes down there since the safeties have less ground to cover. Also, more man press coverage. Screw the off coverage down there. Smack them in the mouth and make them make a play. Come on LC its time to wean the Babes off the tit partner ;D
I know some of it is garbage time, but the pass defense really has me worried. You look at the strategy employed by the Dolphins and Redskins. Even the Chiefs went away from the run most of the 2nd and 3rd quarter. I am not trying to dog LC, but I really wonder how good this D could be if we had a dominant defensive philosophy running through the organization. For example, what if we had a former DC as the head coach? I think there is enough talent on this D, but I just don't think we play with the right kind of attitude to be a top ranked D.

[bloodsunday]

3rd down conversions have been an issue for a few years here. With that kind of consistent inefficiency, it would seem there's a play-calling issue with a play-execution question running a distant second.
Maybe absence makes the mind grow fonder... but it seems like we were more willing to run the ball on 3rd down back in the TD days. Partly because of TD and partly because how good that OL was.

[bloodsunday]

The stat on Elway is misleading, he was way too often asked to pull a win out of Reeves stupid ass...sometimes he could, sometimes he couldn't...
People that put any stock in that stat don't know anything about Football. Despite the stats, Elway was a far superior QB at any stage of his career to Plummer.

[Lidderer]

People that put any stock in that stat don't know anything about Football. Despite the stats, Elway was a far superior QB at any stage of his career to Plummer.


oh cool, so INTs don't matter to you. But wait...weren't you just saying that....oh okay i see how it works.

wierd.

[ozomulsion]

oh cool, so INTs don't matter to you. But wait...weren't you just saying that....oh okay i see how it works.

wierd.

So Jake is about as good as Elway? Cool!

[Lidderer]

So Jake is about as good as Elway? Cool!

what?

the point is that it's odd for someone who constantly bemoans a qb who throws ints to then say that the stat doesn't matter.

settle down, Infer-o.

[BroncoInferno]

Third downs aside, I thought you guys should have run a naked boot on that 4th down. No way KC would have stopped it.

No kidding. I was screaming for the boot when I saw how KC lined up. #29 for KC was the only player who would have been in position to make a play on Plummer, and he didn't even glance at Jake on the handoff. He probably could have walked 30 yards.

[Cito Pelon]

The Broncs aren't playing like a team that puts a chip on somebody's shoulder, then punches them in the face to knock the chip off. They're playing like a team that is good enough to relax at times, and as soon as an opportunity to relax presents itself, they do so fast.

Where that starts and ends, I don't know.

[Mediator12]

Jeff Legwold's take on this:

Still, after the loss in Kansas City, two things quickly caught the Broncos' attention:

• Their run defense, which surrendered 140 yards to running back Larry Johnson and 168 rushing yards overall.
• Their offense, which, Shanahan was quick to point out, didn't help much. He said it gave back the ball to Kansas City too quickly and too many times in the second half.

After scoring 21 points in the first half - three touchdowns in their first five possessions - and piling up 283 yards, the
Broncos scored six points after halftime and gained 105 yards.
That second-half total included 44 net passing yards.
"We have to do more than that," quarterback Jake Plummer said. "That shows we didn't keep things going."

Particularly troubling was the Broncos' first possession of the second half, usually a strong point with Shanahan's teams. On first down, the Broncos tried to have receiver Rod Smith take a handoff with the potential to pass.

But Smith slipped as Chiefs defenders closed in and was sacked for an 11-yard loss before he could throw away the ball. Mike Anderson gained only 1 yard on second down and Plummer threw an interception on third down. The Chiefs took the next possession and ended up with a field goal.

On their next drive, the Broncos powered their way to the Chiefs 6-yard line and faced first-and-goal. But three running plays, two by Ron Dayne, one by Anderson - netted 2 yards, and the Broncos settled for a field goal.

They also didn't produce a touchdown late in the third quarter after Williams intercepted a pass by Trent Green and returned it to the Chiefs 44. Four plays later, Jason Elam kicked a 40-yard field goal.

"Those are the kinds of things you have to look at," Shanahan said. "We get a couple first downs there, keep some drives going, maybe things are different."

In the fourth quarter, none of the Broncos' possessions went longer than five plays or 22 yards. That included a fourth-and-1 play on which Anderson was stopped for no gain, and after a replay review, the ball was handed over to the Chiefs.

And each time, Johnson got more chances to pound away at the Broncos defense. "Those are yards we always think we can get," Anderson said. "And those are the yards you need if you're going to be successful."

[defenseman]

Just my perspective, 3rd downs may be a problem, however recently I believe that the 4th quarter overall has become a bigger issue....dman