Why so much hate for the Defense?

[BroncoSoja]

First off all unlike others here I never made threads praising Plummer, simple because I really didnt see what all the praise was about this year. So what if his INT's were down his passing game is too.

I understand our Defense could have played better this game.. I really do... But why is it almost all this year when we loose you see threads bashing the defense? The Defense that forces turnovers in almost every game.. The defense that has been for the most part wreaking havoc on opposing QB's with good DL play and good Secondary Coverage...

I know Jake hasnt been througing INT's this year but he sure as hell isnt throwing for alot of yards and TD's either... I mean come one Mike Vick is suppose to have games of 185 yards passing not a Bronco QB. Plummer has had reigns put on him all season long and now for the last 2 games they have been taken off a bit and we see the result.. Costly INT's that have killed us. Ever time this guy throws a long Duck (cause thats what they are since the WR often times has to slow down or turn around and fight to get the ball) I want to hold my breath.. All season long our D has been the strength of this team while our Run game has a strong runner up. I just dont know why people are so happy that Jake is not tossing INTs as if that is enough and we should just settle for that..

Just like a Offense feeds off a Denfense a D can feed off a O.. But when your Offense cant convert 2 yards to stay in the game or they are tossing INT's into triple coverage in the Endzone of a Playoff type game then you really have no hope no matter what your Defense is doing...

Anyone that cant see that the Defense is the strength of this team while the Offense is the weakness needs to wake up. Simple put with Plummer back there we will always be a team that is going to shoot ourselves in the foot if we dont put a leash on him. And when the leash is in place our Pass offense will be average at best.

[SoCalBronco]

oh boy. Here we go.

[epicSocialism4tw]

27 points should win the game for you. Period.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

I don't think you guys can blame the loss on any one unit.

Team loss.

[epicSocialism4tw]

I don't think you guys can blame the loss on any one unit.

Team loss.


27 points should win the game for you.

[Popps]

27 points should win the game for you. Period.

We could have scored 127, and you'd have people around here blaming Plummer and defending the defense.

Like I said, can you imagine what Indy's offense would have done to us today? Just a horrific performance from our defense.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

27 points should win the game for you.

Your O blew some opportunities too. Taco likes to point to a failed redzone possession in the 2003 game as the key reason for the loss (we stuffed your ass on third and goal if you remember and you settled for 3). Same thing happened today. And then there was the INT in the endzone and of course the fiasco at the end.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Your O blew some opportunities too. Taco likes to point to a failed redzone possession in the 2003 game as the key reason for the loss (we stuffed your ass on third and goal if you remember and you settled for 3). Same thing happened today. And then there was the INT in the endzone and of course the fiasco at the end.


You cant pin the game on those two plays. The interception was on the second possession I believe. The 4th down failure was a playcalling gaffe with the 3rd down screen to the fullback leaving the players scrambled to get the run off.

27 points should win the game for you every time. Our defense didnt show at all in this game. They just slowed the Chiefs down so that they didnt score on the first play every series.

The Chiefs defense did nothing to beat Denver today. The offense ran out of time and the Chiefs got one stop. The offense looked as good today as it did on MNF.

The defense wasnt there though. 31 points. That's at least 14 too many. They just had a poor game giving up runs to diaper boy all day.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

You cant pin the game on those two plays.

No, you can't. That's why I called it a team loss. You blew opportunities on both sides of the ball.


The Chiefs defense did nothing to beat Denver today.

Right. We only STOPPED YOU with the game on the line.

Your O had a chance to win it with 3 minutes left. How can you not fault them for blowing that kind of opportunity?

[epicSocialism4tw]

No, you can't. That's why I called it a team loss. You blew opportunities on both sides of the ball.
Right. We only STOPPED YOU with the game on the line.
Your O had a chance to win it with 3 minutes left. How can you not fault them for blowing that kind of opportunity?

I didnt say that your defense didnt come up with ONE stop, because that's about all they did. In reality, there were a few more, but you guys have a sieve for a defense. Our offense hasnt beat anyone up that badly since the last time we played the Chiefs. Maybe the Jets game...

You just cant blame the offense when they put 27 points on the board and moved the ball as well as they did. They scored more than enough to win. The defense didnt show up. Green and Johnson moved the ball at will.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

I didnt say that your defense didnt come up with ONE stop, because that's about all they did. In reality, there were a few more, but you guys have a sieve for a defense.

Bah...you didn't convert a single freaking third down in the second half.

Yeah, we suck. :nono:

[epicSocialism4tw]

Bah...you didn't convert a single freaking third down in the second half.

Yeah, we suck. :nono:

Why do you need third down when you can march down the field effortlessly on first and second? Denver had 19 total 1st downs to KC's 24. Denver also had some pretty big plays: Anderson's TD, Lelie's catch, Putzier's catch, etc. Bell seemed to have no problem picking up three 1st downs on that 4th quarter drive. I believe that they were all 1st down runs.

The Chiefs defense couldnt stop the Bronco offense 99.8% of the time.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

The Chiefs defense couldnt stop the Bronco offense 99.8% of the time.

That's crap. Not only could you not convert a third down in the 2nd half, you only had 105 total yards.

[elsid13]

Why do you need third down when you can march down the field effortlessly on first and second? Denver had 19 total 1st downs to KC's 24. Denver also had some pretty big plays: Anderson's TD, Lelie's catch, Putzier's catch, etc. Bell seemed to have no problem picking up three 1st downs on that 4th quarter drive. I believe that they were all 1st down runs.

The Chiefs defense couldnt stop the Bronco offense 99.8% of the time.


Thanks for pointing this out, on the 4-1 would have loved to see a bootleg, since the chefs were crashing hard oh well.

[epicSocialism4tw]

That's crap. Not only could you not convert a third down in the 2nd half, you only had 105 total yards.


The team had 388 total yards including 131 rushing and 257 passing (more than KC's 253). The team also scored 27 points.

The offense had it's way with your defense in the flow of the game. The difference: KC converted a late red zone opportunity for a TD, Denver converted for a 40 yd FG. That's it. There are your decisive 4 points. Denver sat on posessions at the end of both halves and came up with 0 points on those posessions.

It's nice to see the cup half full, but it's pointless in ignoring that it is half empty. Your defense didnt do a whole lot in the game to determine the outcome.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Your defense didnt do a whole lot in the game to determine the outcome.

OK, this is garbage. YES they played like crap in the first half. In the second half they were great. Denver had one drive worth a crap.

[epicSocialism4tw]

OK, this is garbage. YES they played like crap in the first half. In the second half they were great. Denver had one drive worth a crap.


Both teams slowed down in the second half. KC scored 10 points and Denver scored 6.

I am not convinced in any way whatsoever that KC's defense is able to make a significant impact during the extended run of play. Their corners consistently got roasted, their linebackers and secondary dont tackle very well, their D-line doesnt get a whole lot of pressure...they're just not that good. You're team's offense is nice, but that defense leaves much to be desired.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Both teams slowed down in the second half. KC scored 10 points and Denver scored 6.


KC had 170 yards in the second half. Nice try.

You're team's offense is nice, but that defense leaves much to be desired.

Have you watched ANY other KC games this year?

The D has stepped up huge in several victories. They did so again today.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Denver converted 2 of 5 opportunities in the 2nd half into points. One of five was an interception in Denver's field, and one was the last drive of the game that faultered. I wouldnt say that that's domination by any means. On one drive, Denver waltzed down into the KC 5 yard line in 12 plays eating up 6:50 and 69 yards in the process.

Denver punted once in the second half.

[epicSocialism4tw]

I guess you could call it the "bend, but hope the other team messes up" defense.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

On one drive, Denver waltzed down into the KC 5 yard line in 12 plays eating up 6:50 and 69 yards in the process.


Yes that was the only drive where you did anything. Thanks for reinforcing my point.

69 yards - FG

22 yards - FG (great job by KC to hold it to 3 after the INT)

-10 yards - INT

2 yards- PUNT

22 yards- DOWNS

That's defense, buddy. No 2 ways about it.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Yes that was the only drive where you did anything. Thanks for reinforcing my point.

69 yards - FG

22 yards - FG (great job by KC to hold it to 3 after the INT)

-10 yards - INT

2 yards- PUNT

22 yards- DOWNS

That's defense, buddy. No 2 ways about it.

Yeah, there are two ways about it. Those drives scored points. You just cant convince me that your defense is even worth a second look after watching them let Denver do whatever they wanted for three quarters and then catching some breaks in the 4th.

[Arkie]

The defense held the opposition to 21 points or under in the 9 wins. The defense allowed over 21 points in the 3 losses. This just tells me that we're only as good as our defense, and 21 points is Denver's defensive limit. We can't count on the offense to win a shootout. Jake and the WRs just can't hang with the better offenses in this league.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Yeah, there are two ways about it. Those drives scored points. You just cant convince me that your defense is even worth a second look after watching them let Denver do whatever they wanted for three quarters and then catching some breaks in the 4th.

What? Breaks? GET A CLUE.

The only reason Denver's offense scored more than 3 points was because of Trent Green's interception.

[epicSocialism4tw]

What? Breaks? GET A CLUE.

The only reason Denver's offense scored more than 3 points was because of Trent Green's interception.


Sure buddy...Don't Stop, Believin'! Hold on to that Feelin'!

A good delusion deserves a Journey soundtrack.

[Mr. Trout]

We were very weak tackling today. People would go to a spot and stand there and not gang tackle. That is why Larry had the long cutback runs.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Sure buddy...Don't Stop, Believin'! Hold on to that Feelin'!

A good delusion deserves a Journey soundtrack.

You're the one that's delusional.

The Chiefs defensive effort in the second half was outstanding.

[fontaine]

Wait a minute. The defense can get kudos and praise heaped upon them when they shutout a bunch of cripples like the Jets but when the blow 31 away to KC it's no big deal?

Sorry, I didn't get the memo telling me you can't criticize the D.

The defense forced just two punts! Yes they got two ints but that doesn't give them a free pass to lay down like whores for the rest of the game.

I keep reading articles about how our LBs are best in the league, our DL is superb and we pulled a major coup in getting the browncos and our secondary is powered by pro-bowlers and great young CBs but who gives a crap about that when they allow KC to put up it's 2nd highest score of the season in 31 points.

[Arkie]

The defense must have lost the game in the first half. The offense did a good job keeping up in the first half. After halftime, it was a new 30 minute game. It might as well have been 0-0. It's borderline acceptable to allow 10 points in a half. The offense still has to come out in the 2nd half and score some points to win. Two FGs in the 2nd half is not acceptable, and it's downright embarassing against the Chiefs.

[fontaine]

The defense must have lost the game in the first half. The offense did a good job keeping up in the first half. After halftime, it was a new 30 minute game. It might as well have been 0-0. It's borderline acceptable to allow 10 points in a half. The offense still has to come out in the 2nd half and score some points to win. Two FGs in the 2nd half is not acceptable, and it's downright embarassing against the Chiefs.

That's all fine and good, but you could easily argue the Offense put up 21 points in the first half of football. If the D could have done better in the first half then we could have run out the clock in the 2nd.

Look it's a circular and pointless arguement.

The bottom line is this: Almost every time this team has won it's been with the offense scoring heavily in the first half while the D stops the other team in that span.

Then we sit on that lead in the 2nd half, run out the clock and our D can be aggressive and look for turnovers. That didn't happen. Our Defense forced just one punt in the first half and again another one in the 2nd. That sucks.

Explain to me how our "playoff" calibre Defense let's the chefs rack up their 2nd highest score of the season!

[Arkie]

The D wasn't playoff calibre today nor against Miami. I doubt any team has had a playoff calibre defense every Sunday. I still like our chances. I've noticed 3 Bronco losses and 3 Mane meltdowns. Overall, the Broncos are a top 2 team that can beat the Colts on any given Sunday.

[meangene]

Here's the problem with our defense. We can not consistently pressure the quarterback with our defensive line. Some games we have but, typically, we have not. Against some teams we can get away with heavy blitzing and putting our DBs on an island but not against good teams. Manning would have lit us up for 40 or more yesterday. We can not address the personnel this year so it really boils down to this - our D-line is going to have to dig down and do a better job of winning one on one matchups to pressure the quarterback. I'm not sure we could beat Cincinnati right now let alone Indy.

[watermock]

THEY WERE HOLDING CONSTANTLY...I don't understand how people couldn't see it, yet alone the idiotic refs...I said by the second quarter the refs would try to throw the game...they managed to...

[fontaine]

The D wasn't playoff calibre today nor against Miami. I doubt any team has had a playoff calibre defense every Sunday. I still like our chances. I've noticed 3 Bronco losses and 3 Mane meltdowns. Overall, the Broncos are a top 2 team that can beat the Colts on any given Sunday.


I totally agree. I expected the chiefs to win it but I also didn't expect our D to play so poorly. I still think we're good to go but this should be a wakeup call for the team when they play away from home because we'll eventually have to beat Indy away to make anything of this season.

[fontaine]

THEY WERE HOLDING CONSTANTLY...I don't understand how people couldn't see it, yet alone the idiotic refs...I said by the second quarter the refs would try to throw the game...they managed to...

Stop whining. KC had a TD nullified when the refs called holding. What more do you want?

[ScotchTanShan]

watermock - you're clearly refuse to understand what constitutes holding. Its in the Trevor Pryce thread. Learn it bucko.

Fontaine has the right idea, pullin 6 off the board for a holding call is about as opportune a time to get that call as can be.

[-Slap-]

The ridiculously short kickoffs really out a lot of pressure on the defense. Its hard enough to play a good offense in a hostile environment, but to do it defending a short field all afternoon is asking a lot.

[Rock Chalk]

KC had 170 yards in the second half. Nice try.



Have you watched ANY other KC games this year?

The D has stepped up huge in several victories. They did so again today.
Hey stupid ass, when you gonna learn points are what matters, not yards. KC got shut down in the second half, as much as you can shut down KC in Arrowhead in December that is. 10 points to 6.

Few here expected us to win the game, the fact that we actually showed up to play says a lot.

Have fun on the outside looking in biatch because Denver is winning out and you are gonna be stuck out.

[Riddi]

Bob...you need a life... Stop sucking on your mothers toes and get out into the real world...Congrats you beat us...we split the season series again...you act like the Chiefs are going to the superbowl... One thing did bother me though was Larry Coyer....did we blitz at all???? Against the Eagles we blitzed like crazy and confused the hell out of them...what happened?

[RaiderH8r]

We ran the buckle and break defense. Pretty weak and uninspired performance. Coyer's playcalling left a lot to be desired. It seemd that after Hall's long TD Coyer wasn't too willing to call man-1 coverage and blitz. KC also did a good job of moving people around to mess with the D scheme so when we did blitz we tipped our hand due to motion and shifts and the KC blockers picked it up. Good job of planning on their part. But the front 4 just has to play better and get penetration regardless of shifts and motion. The front 4 wasn't demanding a lot from the OL and they were able to come off and pick up blitzers. Sh!t happens from time to time. Gotta move on.

Shannahan's playcalling in the second half wreaked as well. WTF was he thinking taking the first play of the second half to run the Rod Reverse and Toss play? You know Goonther just spent 15 minutes ripping his defensive linemen about crashing flat and opening up the bootleg. Screaming at the backside to stay home and not get out of position and then Shanny pulls that play off the wood shed? I'm all for going for a big play but that was the wrong time to pull that one out of the hat. Evidence for tentative backside pursuit was Bell's 4 carries for 40+ yards when we got the ball back in the 3rd after the opening drive (and subsequent pick, which I put on Shanny). Run Bell left side to open the half, have some success and lull the backside pursuit into crashing down the line again to take away the cutback, THEN, run the Rod Reverse and Toss at your own 40 or so, or save it for a little later. That play would have been there. After the failed Rod Reverse Shanny seemed really reticent about going back to a bootleg. Like that one play convinced Shanny that the backside would stay home all night long after that. What crap.

Upside: Baltimore at home, and then games against Oakland (home) and Buffalo and San Diego. San Diego and KC still have a game to play to beat each other up. Denver wins 3 of the next 4 (very doable) and 12-4 gets us into the playoffs and the second season. Should be good enough for the Division, but winning out the next 4 WILL take the Division, so let's win out and call it good.

[rbackfactory80]

We could have scored 127, and you'd have people around here blaming Plummer and defending the defense.

Like I said, can you imagine what Indy's offense would have done to us today? Just a horrific performance from our defense.


I agree it was a sad performance by the Defense, but honestly I could not see the Colts doing any worse. We couldn't stop them at all. I see it maybe as no stops instead of one. Defense played horribly and I expected something from them. For all you people out there that are screaming for Plummers head he might play a little better if he could go out on the field thinking it was actually possible for the defense to make a stop once a half.

[Taco John]

I think there are a lot of people who just don't understand modern football. They expect the defense to shut down high powered offenses, despite the fact that it just doesn't happen in this league anymore. If you're offense isn't able to score in every quarter of the game, against another team with a high powered offense, you're going to struggle to win big games in this league.

Look at the Indianapolis/Cincinnati game as another recent example. What happened to those defenses during that game? I'll tell you what happened... The league legislated against them and got the high scoring affairs that they've been craving for years.

I still think that there are a lot of people who are stuck in yesterday's mindset that Defense wins championships, when in reality this league is about offense.

[fontaine]

Upside: Baltimore at home, and then games against Oakland (home) and Buffalo and San Diego. San Diego and KC still have a game to play to beat each other up. Denver wins 3 of the next 4 (very doable) and 12-4 gets us into the playoffs and the second season. Should be good enough for the Division, but winning out the next 4 WILL take the Division, so let's win out and call it good.


I totally agree. We're entering into the easiest 3 game stretch of the season and two of those games are at home. We need to go 3-0 and we should because those are all inferior teams with NO HOPE of getting in the playoffs so they'll just be going through the motions and playing not to get hurt! I cannot stress how important and winnable the next three games are with two at home.

San Diego play Miami, Indy and KC next!
KC play Dallas, NYG, and San Diego next!

This team can still finish up the season as the second seed. They just need to play defense like they've done during the season rather than yesterday!

[Wes Mantooth]

27 points should win the game for you. Period.
Exactly. You expect to win those games with that many points. HOWEVER, if we play the Colts, we will need to score more than that.

[Taco John]

27 points should win the game for you. Period.


Maybe if we were playing Oakland. I could have told you that we'd need more than 27 points to beat the KC Chiefs in their own stadium well before kickoff. We'll also need more than that if we expect to beat the Indianapolis Colts... Or the Cincinnati Bengals, for that matter.

[Rascal]

Let me guess it's Jake's fault.

You will never blame the defense and you will always blame Plummer.

Your spin job is quite amusing though.

[fontaine]

I think there are a lot of people who just don't understand modern football. They expect the defense to shut down high powered offenses, despite the fact that it just doesn't happen in this league anymore.
KC is not a high powered offense any more.

Gonzo had scored 1 TD all year long.
Green and that OL have been struggling.
We stopped Johnson cold in our first game.

Denver was averging around 27 points per game compared to KC's 24. Who's the high powered O again?

If you're offense isn't able to score in every quarter of the game, against another team with a high powered offense, you're going to struggle to win big games in this league.

That's funny. Going into this game Denver was averaging MORE points than KC's "high powered offense" yet you're criticizing our O which did score EVERY quarter.

I still think that there are a lot of people who are stuck in yesterday's mindset that Defense wins championships, when in reality this league is about offense.

That's even funnier. How did New England stop Indy last year? They scored a whopping 20 points and held Manning and co to a FG.

We gave away penalties on Defense, had multiple blown coverages, especially one where Hall scored. Who's asking the D to play nails for 4 quarters? All they needed to do was be awake in the first quarter when our offense was putting up the points. Instead they start blowing coverages and commiting penalties. That meant the score was tied going into the half and we were in a shootout.

Well then who do you fancy in a shootout between two relatively even teams? The home or away team?

Hall and the other WR didn't suddenly become Wayne and Harrison, our secondary just made it seem that way in the 1st half when they apparently got one of the simplest coverage schemes in football confused in the cover two!

[rbackfactory80]

I think there are a lot of people who just don't understand modern football. They expect the defense to shut down high powered offenses, despite the fact that it just doesn't happen in this league anymore. If you're offense isn't able to score in every quarter of the game, against another team with a high powered offense, you're going to struggle to win big games in this league.

Look at the Indianapolis/Cincinnati game as another recent example. What happened to those defenses during that game? I'll tell you what happened... The league legislated against them and got the high scoring affairs that they've been craving for years.

I still think that there are a lot of people who are stuck in yesterday's mindset that Defense wins championships, when in reality this league is about offense.


No I really think it is about balance. You need an offense that will be top five and a defense that will make those two or three stops a game so your offense does not have to score eveytime. If you watched the Steelers play the Bengals yesterday when the game was on the line what the the steelers did was kick off the ball and rely on their defense to make a stop. Their defense made the stop and gave them a chance to win the game. We on the other hand new Larry Johnson was going to run it right down our throat and we still couldn't stop him. We should have gotten the ball back with just under two minutes with a chance to win the game but our number one defense against the run couldn't stop the run even though we knew there was no chance they would pass.

[RaiderH8r]

I think there are a lot of people who just don't understand modern football. They expect the defense to shut down high powered offenses, despite the fact that it just doesn't happen in this league anymore. If you're offense isn't able to score in every quarter of the game, against another team with a high powered offense, you're going to struggle to win big games in this league.

Look at the Indianapolis/Cincinnati game as another recent example. What happened to those defenses during that game? I'll tell you what happened... The league legislated against them and got the high scoring affairs that they've been craving for years.

I still think that there are a lot of people who are stuck in yesterday's mindset that Defense wins championships, when in reality this league is about offense.
That hits on a pretty sore point with me. You're right. And for my part, I think it's a bad move from a "game" standpoint. I liked low scoring, defensive affairs. I liked hand fighting for position. I liked seeing receivers get laid out and intimidated over the middle. Easy Ed wouldn't be Easy Ed without the magnitude of testicular fortitude he showed week in and week out after taking some of the toughest licks defenses had to offer and then going right back into the teeth of the D for another tough first down catch. But from a revenue standpoint I can see why the league made the moves it did. And, quite frankly, it plays against Denver's strengths. Which also grates me. Our O-Line isn't built for hunkering down on 5 step drops and double move patterns. We get the time for those routes based on our O's effectiveness as a smash mouth running team. Ahh, screw it. This club will have to find a way to win despite my grievances with rules changes and officiating.

[Taco John]

KC is not a high powered offense any more.



If you say so... I'd put that offense right now against any in the league, especially if they're playing in KC. Certainly, they've been on the decline, but put them in a big game, and they look just as good as they did in any year... Maybe a little better given that Larry Johnson is a better runner than Priest Holmes, hard as that is for me to swallow.

[broncosteven]

Maybe if we were playing Oakland. I could have told you that we'd need more than 27 points to beat the KC Chiefs in their own stadium well before kickoff. We'll also need more than that if we expect to beat the Indianapolis Colts... Or the Cincinnati Bengals, for that matter.

So how many points do you expect out of a good O on the road? In hindsight we needed 32 yesterday to win.

Going into the game if you told me we would get 27 I would have thought we would have won. We should have been able to hold them to 24 on D.

Coyer blew it, Green had all day to let guys get open.

In this league if you don't move the QB around in the pocket & pressure them consistently you will lose.

[Taco John]

You need an offense that will be top five and a defense that will make those two or three stops a game so your offense does not have to score eveytime.

Do interceptions count as stops?

[Taco John]

So how many points do you expect out of a good O on the road? In hindsight we needed 32 yesterday to win.

I expected we'd need 35 points to beat KC on the road. I expect we'll need the same to beat Indianapolis or Cincinatti.


Going into the game if you told me we would get 27 I would have thought we would have won. We should have been able to hold them to 24 on D.


Before the game if you told me we would get 27, I would have thought, "damn... well, at least we gave them a game."

[Taco John]

Again... Can anyone explain to me how two good defense in Indianapolis and Cincinatti completely melted down when facing eachother? That's how it is in this league anymore.

Offenses > Defenses

[fontaine]

If you say so... I'd put that offense right now against any in the league, especially if they're playing in KC. Certainly, they've been on the decline, but put them in a big game, and they look just as good as they did in any year... Maybe a little better given that Larry Johnson is a better runner than Priest Holmes, hard as that is for me to swallow.

Let me get this straight. Hall benefits from a blown coverage in where he's totally uncovered and is gifted a score. Gonzo doubled his TD total for the season when he grabbed that TD. And Johnson gained almost all of his yards in the 4th quarter when this defense was clearly tired. Green throws two dumb picks.

You calling this offense as good as any in the league? Even though we averaged more points then they did? Right. Anyways, getting back to the facts about the game rather than opinions: We gifted them points on the board with missed tackles and blown coverages.

When the D did wake up and start applying, you know, the simplest of fundamentals like tackling and actually following your assignment, they held them to 10 points in the entire 2nd half.

No offense, but maybe you shouldn't talk about defense at all because your post is giving false credit to their offense.

[fontaine]

Again... Can anyone explain to me how two good defense in Indianapolis and Cincinatti completely melted down when facing eachother? That's how it is in this league anymore.

Offenses > Defenses

You're calling their defenses good? Right. That explains it. Never mind.

[Taco John]

You're calling their defenses good? Right. That explains it. Never mind.



Where did I say that? Improved, yes. Much better than any KC defense we've faced in a few years. Yes.

They did keep us from converting a single third down in the second half.

[fontaine]

Where did I say that? Improved, yes. Much better than any KC defense we've faced in a few years. Yes.

They did keep us from converting a single third down in the second half.

I was referring to the post you made about Indy and Cincy's D. You know, the one I clearly quoted in my post.

[rbackfactory80]

Do interceptions count as stops?


Both the interceptions we got were pure luck. They count as stops but both of them were just being in the right place at the right time. I will give you those but what about the last drive knowing they are going to run the ball at us and not stopping the run. When the game is on the line and you know what the offense is going to do somehow the defense must make a play and give us the ball back with two minutes. We are the quote number 1 defense against the run. To me you sound like someone that does not expect anything out of the defense, unfortunately for you and those like you, Shanahan doesn't feel the same way. He chose to invest a great amount of money in our defense. I don't think this is a lost season by any means, just dissapointed that with the game on the line the defense came up empty.

[Taco John]

Oh, my bad... I misread.

Yes, for sure. I am calling their defenses good. Indy is ranked third overall. Cincy, while not ranked nearly as favorably, is the leagues turnover leader. I have respect for both defenses.

[broncosteven]

I expected we'd need 35 points to beat KC on the road. I expect we'll need the same to beat Indianapolis or Cincinatti.





Before the game if you told me we would get 27, I would have thought, "damn... well, at least we gave them a game."


I agree we will need about 34 to beat Indy but for KFC I thought we should have been able to win if we held them to 24.

BTW we have only hit 35 or more once this year.

We need Coyer to bring pressure & the D to keep us in games. We only have 3 other games where we have scored 30 or more points.

Duh Bears are a aberration but they are a valid example of a team winning with Defense. They are now giving up under 10 points per game. They have an easy schedule just like Dolts but they remain focused week in & out & Chico is only in his 2nd year as a DC.

[Taco John]

Both the interceptions we got were pure luck.



Ok well thanks for getting that out in the first sentance so I knew not to bother with the rest.

[Rascal]

look at who Indy has faced and that will explain the reason why there defense is so good statistically.

Same with Cincy.

[Taco John]

look at who Indy has faced and that will explain the reason why there defense is so good statistically.

Same with Cincy.


Ok then... Let me ask you this. Against each defense, on ten third down tries... How many of those ten do you think we would convert?

[Rascal]

What kind of a question is that?

Let me look into my crystle ball and pull a number out of my ass...uh...it says 'hard to tell"

If they are all 3rd and 10 I would say maybe 1. If they are all 3rd and 1 I would say 7.

[rbackfactory80]

Again... Can anyone explain to me how two good defense in Indianapolis and Cincinatti completely melted down when facing eachother? That's how it is in this league anymore.

Offenses > Defenses


Tell that to the bucs and patriots, the last four superbowl winners.

[Alkazar]

watermock - you're clearly refuse to understand what constitutes holding. Its in the Trevor Pryce thread. Learn it bucko.

Fontaine has the right idea, pullin 6 off the board for a holding call is about as opportune a time to get that call as can be.
While I can't specifically say it was holding calls, it was plainly obvious the refs were pulling for the Chiefs to win. On every single offsides call I saw movement along the offensive line that induced the offsides which means the correct call should have been false-start against the Chiefs. Also the bad call against Lynch when it was obvious he was leading with his arms, not his helmet that led directly to a KC TD. Now with that being said, it was also obvious that the defense did not show up for this game. KC's back up running back pinning over 100 yards on us proves that. And I don't know how many times our rookie corners got burned while out of position. All things considered, the final score should have been 27-10 Denver instead of 31-27 KC. Either way we are now at 9-3, we still hold the lead in the division with a good chance of taking the division in the next couple of weeks. KC has the toughest row to hoe and will probably drop at least one or two of their remaining games and hopefully so will SD although I'm not sure who they have left to face other than us.

[Elway 4 Life]

That's crap. Not only could you not convert a third down in the 2nd half, you only had 105 total yards.

And yet we were driving down the field only down 4 points. Your defense is suspect as was ours yesterday.

[Taco John]

You calling this [KC] offense as good as any in the league?


Don't look now, but they're ranked third overall...

[fontaine]

Oh, my bad... I misread.

Yes, for sure. I am calling their defenses good. Indy is ranked third overall. Cincy, while not ranked nearly as favorably, is the leagues turnover leader. I have respect for both defenses.

Allright, let's agree to disagree on Defense then. I happen to think both of their defenses are good for only ONE situation: When their respective offenses give them a big lead. Both of those defenses are built to be aggressive and protect a lead. Anything other than that scenario and they're average to poor.

There's only a handful of good/great defenses in the league IMO. Chicago being one of the most dominant because of what they do despite being crippled by no offense. Denver being right up there but not consistent, same with Tampa Bay. Steelers, Dallas and a healthy Pats D as well but that's about it.

[fontaine]

Don't look now, but they're ranked third overall...

Yeah, funny how blown coverages and missed tackles will pump up your stats suddenly.

[Taco John]

Allright, let's agree to disagree on Defense then. I happen to think both of their defenses are good for only ONE situation: When their respective offenses give them a big lead. Both of those defenses are built to be aggressive and protect a lead. Anything other than that scenario and they're average to poor.


Dude, that's exactly how our defense is built...

[broncosteven]

Allright, let's agree to disagree on Defense then. I happen to think both of their defenses are good for only ONE situation: When their respective offenses give them a big lead. Both of those defenses are built to be aggressive and protect a lead. Anything other than that scenario and they're average to poor.

There's only a handful of good/great defenses in the league IMO. Chicago being one of the most dominant because of what they do despite being crippled by no offense. Denver being right up there but not consistent, same with Tampa Bay. Steelers, Dallas and a healthy Pats D as well but that's about it.


REP for the Consistent comment! I did not think we would be 9-3 at this point coming into the season. Really we only need to be truly consistent throughout the playoffs. Coyer has shown flashes but he just seems to take too long to adjust sometimes. That is just how I ROLL though ;^ )

[Rock Chalk]

Tell that to the bucs and patriots, the last four superbowl winners.
And the Ravens...

[broncosteven]

Dude, that's exactly how our defense is built...


I don't think so. I think this D can win games for us look at the charger game & Dallas games, without Champs TD's we lose those. Champ gave us 7 then the D kept it close for the O to get a couple of drives to eke out a win.

[fontaine]

Dude, that's exactly how our defense is built...

Hmm. . Yes and No. Our D can play like that but I would give more credit to them because they're better against the run and would be FAR better against the pass if Champ wasn't playing limp all season and if Walls hadn't tanked so badly.

But like I said, let's agree to disagree on defense because I think we have two totally different opinions on this.

[RaiderH8r]

If you say so... I'd put that offense right now against any in the league, especially if they're playing in KC. Certainly, they've been on the decline, but put them in a big game, and they look just as good as they did in any year... Maybe a little better given that Larry Johnson is a better runner than Priest Holmes, hard as that is for me to swallow.
They can certainly put up points in bunches. Larry Johnson is a good RB and hasn't done anything that wouldn't justify that statement since stepping into a full time role. He certainly earned his paycheck yesterday....as hard as that is for me to swallow.

Having said that, our D needs to perform better than they did yesterday for this club to have any success in the post season. They're certainly capable of it.

[RaiderH8r]

Do interceptions count as stops?
First INT, all Jake. He should have tucked and run. He learned his lesson from that first pick and tucked it on the same play later in the game.

Second INT. All Shanny. Dumb a$$ play call coming out of half time put the squad 2nd and 21, then a weak run play to put the O 3rd and 20. Jake forced one. Shanny knows better than to put Jake in that position and has done a pretty good job so far this season of avoiding those situations. Bad Shanny.

D had a bad day. No pressure from the front 4, blitzes were being exposed during pre-snap motion/shifts and consequently picked up by blockers. Back to the drawing board and time to finish strong.

[Mediator12]

This defense is built to have the front four exert pressure on the QB without blitzing and to get penetration on running plays forcing the RB to not be able to get downhill quickly. As Injuries forced the rooks into the secondary, the coverage schemes adjusted to protect them and included a bunch of zero coverage blitzes to force teams into their strengths of man coverage and tackling.

The problem with this scheme has been evidenced in the WAS and now KC games where their was zero pressure from the front four for most of the game. They also lost the battle in the trenches versus the run surrendering the only other 100+ yard rusher the whole year. I was Hoping Coyer would have gambled more on that last TD drive on first and ten. Both of their big plays came on back to back first downs in base defense. They had NO third downs on the whole drive and picked up an average of 15 yards per first down play.

Defense did not execute worth a crap up front yesterday. This led to the fourth quarter dismantling of the run defense and domination of the front seven for most of the game. Denver will not play well defensively if they fail to execute up front. Period.

[Mediator12]

First INT, all Jake. He should have tucked and run. He learned his lesson from that first pick and tucked it on the same play later in the game.

Second INT. All Shanny. Dumb a$$ play call coming out of half time put the squad 2nd and 21, then a weak run play to put the O 3rd and 20. Jake forced one. Shanny knows better than to put Jake in that position and has done a pretty good job so far this season of avoiding those situations. Bad Shanny.

D had a bad day. No pressure from the front 4, blitzes were being exposed during pre-snap motion/shifts and consequently picked up by blockers. Back to the drawing board and time to finish strong.

He was talking about Denver's defense INT's.

And for the record, Jake had no Business throwing the second ball late over the middle. Never throw late over the middle. Pick up a few yards safely and punt in that position.

[RaiderH8r]

While I can't specifically say it was holding calls, it was plainly obvious the refs were pulling for the Chiefs to win. On every single offsides call I saw movement along the offensive line that induced the offsides which means the correct call should have been false-start against the Chiefs. Also the bad call against Lynch when it was obvious he was leading with his arms, not his helmet that led directly to a KC TD. Now with that being said, it was also obvious that the defense did not show up for this game. KC's back up running back pinning over 100 yards on us proves that. And I don't know how many times our rookie corners got burned while out of position. All things considered, the final score should have been 27-10 Denver instead of 31-27 KC. Either way we are now at 9-3, we still hold the lead in the division with a good chance of taking the division in the next couple of weeks. KC has the toughest row to hoe and will probably drop at least one or two of their remaining games and hopefully so will SD although I'm not sure who they have left to face other than us.
SD still plays against Indy and KC, so yes, either KC or SD will be losing at least one of their remaining games. All is not lost in Broncoland my friends. We have 3 very winnable games coming up with, what I expect to be, a tough contest in SD. SD may well lose 2-3 of their remaining. KC may still lose 2-3 of their remaining. OAK is sucking balls but could play a spoiler, hopefully we have our sh!t wired tight for that game. It's at home so I'm pretty confident in our squad and our 12th man.

[RaiderH8r]

He was talking about Denver's defense INT's.
Ahh, well I stand by my statement. :blowhorn:

Roland picked up a tip gift. Still a pick in the books and glad he got it. Darrent benefited from one of the few pressures our DL created, despite a 3 step drop it seemed Green rushed the throw and Darrent made the play. So credit where credit is due. Good job on those plays, we just needed a better run defense. But I think this week was an anomaly, we'll get'er put back together and make a run the last 4 weeks.

As for Jake's second pick, Shanny called the play in. If he wanted to go with a safe play he should have thought of that before pulling that chucklehead reverse toss pass on the first play. He went safe on second down and got squat so it's implied he's looking to Jake to make a play on 3rd down by the play he called in. Bad series for Shanny. He should have run left side like he did with Tater on the next series. You know Goon was screaming bloody murder for 15 minutes at half time for the Defensive backside to stay home because we were killing them on the boot. The backside did stay home and Tater found some cutbacks in the ole to make gains. The backside started to collapse again mid-late 3rd quarter and THAT's when you call reverse toss pass. Shanny also seemed to abandon the boot in the second half.

[Rascal]

This defense is built to have the front four exert pressure on the QB without blitzing and to get penetration on running plays forcing the RB to not be able to get downhill quickly. As Injuries forced the rooks into the secondary, the coverage schemes adjusted to protect them and included a bunch of zero coverage blitzes to force teams into their strengths of man coverage and tackling.

The problem with this scheme has been evidenced in the WAS and now KC games where their was zero pressure from the front four for most of the game. They also lost the battle in the trenches versus the run surrendering the only other 100+ yard rusher the whole year. I was Hoping Coyer would have gambled more on that last TD drive on first and ten. Both of their big plays came on back to back first downs in base defense. They had NO third downs on the whole drive and picked up an average of 15 yards per first down play.

Defense did not execute worth a crap up front yesterday. This led to the fourth quarter dismantling of the run defense and domination of the front seven for most of the game. Denver will not play well defensively if they fail to execute up front. Period.

Show me a team that can win consistently and still lose the battle up front consistently. It's been the same since day one...you win the battle in the trenches and more then likely you are going to win the game.

[RaiderH8r]

Show me a team that can win consistently and still lose the battle up front consistently. It's been the same since day one...you win the battle in the trenches and more then likely you are going to win the game.
See 4th and 1. OL failed the team on that play. They gotta know it's big on big time. Gut check, can you move your man? They didn't get it done, pussified weak uninspired blocking killed the play. But this was a team loss, no one man cost the club this ball game.

[Willynowei]

First off all unlike others here I never made threads praising Plummer, simple because I really didnt see what all the praise was about this year. So what if his INT's were down his passing game is too.

I understand our Defense could have played better this game.. I really do... But why is it almost all this year when we loose you see threads bashing the defense? The Defense that forces turnovers in almost every game.. The defense that has been for the most part wreaking havoc on opposing QB's with good DL play and good Secondary Coverage...

I know Jake hasnt been througing INT's this year but he sure as hell isnt throwing for alot of yards and TD's either... I mean come one Mike Vick is suppose to have games of 185 yards passing not a Bronco QB. Plummer has had reigns put on him all season long and now for the last 2 games they have been taken off a bit and we see the result.. Costly INT's that have killed us. Ever time this guy throws a long Duck (cause thats what they are since the WR often times has to slow down or turn around and fight to get the ball) I want to hold my breath.. All season long our D has been the strength of this team while our Run game has a strong runner up. I just dont know why people are so happy that Jake is not tossing INTs as if that is enough and we should just settle for that..

Just like a Offense feeds off a Denfense a D can feed off a O.. But when your Offense cant convert 2 yards to stay in the game or they are tossing INT's into triple coverage in the Endzone of a Playoff type game then you really have no hope no matter what your Defense is doing...

Anyone that cant see that the Defense is the strength of this team while the Offense is the weakness needs to wake up. Simple put with Plummer back there we will always be a team that is going to shoot ourselves in the foot if we dont put a leash on him. And when the leash is in place our Pass offense will be average at best.

There shouldnt be high expectations for an overacheving, old offensive unit with very little talent anywhere.

There should be high expectations for an overpaid, underacheiving defensive unit with talent everywhere.

[NFLBRONCO]

I bet Bob and other KC fans would admit if Denver had a solid S another WR threat on 3rd downs and a Legit TE we'd be scarier. KC won deserved the win and we move on to Balt.

[broncosteven]

This defense is built to have the front four exert pressure on the QB without blitzing and to get penetration on running plays forcing the RB to not be able to get downhill quickly. As Injuries forced the rooks into the secondary, the coverage schemes adjusted to protect them and included a bunch of zero coverage blitzes to force teams into their strengths of man coverage and tackling.

The problem with this scheme has been evidenced in the WAS and now KC games where their was zero pressure from the front four for most of the game. They also lost the battle in the trenches versus the run surrendering the only other 100+ yard rusher the whole year. I was Hoping Coyer would have gambled more on that last TD drive on first and ten. Both of their big plays came on back to back first downs in base defense. They had NO third downs on the whole drive and picked up an average of 15 yards per first down play.

Defense did not execute worth a crap up front yesterday. This led to the fourth quarter dismantling of the run defense and domination of the front seven for most of the game. Denver will not play well defensively if they fail to execute up front. Period.

I concurr, Coyer did not adjust or make any changes when it was clear the front front 4 alone was not getting it done.

[Mile High Shack]

as I have said

we are going to either win or lose based on our defense, not our offense

in our 3 losses, our D has played like crap

we spend most of our FA money and draft picks on the defensive side of the ball, I expect more out of them than our offense.

Jake made some bad plays, but he also made a lot of good plays, by escaping a sure sack at least 5 x's to continue a drive.

It was a team loss, but we have got to figure out how to pressure the QB better

[Mediator12]

Oh, and just for kicks, DJ Williams took about 80% of the snaps at Will yesterday and sucked miserably at it too. On the long run, Pryce, DJ, and Ferguson overran the play. On the ensuing TD, he went vertical and not down the line and that allowed Jason "I hold every single play" Dunn to block Al Wilson and Courtney Brown.

BTW, I know exactly why the KC OL gets a dirt load of Credit. Their TE's HOLD. Dunn especially, but Gonzalez held on that TD too. Jersey held on the outside shoulder and Phil Simms calls that in the framework??? Ya Phil and Lynch led with the Helmet too hmmm...

[Bronx33]

Oh, and just for kicks, DJ Williams took about 80% of the snaps at Will yesterday and sucked miserably at it too. On the long run, Pryce, DJ, and Ferguson overran the play. On the ensuing TD, he went vertical and not down the line and that allowed Jason "I hold every single play" Dunn to block Al Wilson and Courtney Brown.

BTW, I know exactly why the KC OL gets a dirt load of Credit. Their TE's HOLD. Dunn especially, but Gonzalez held on that TD too. Jersey held on the outside shoulder and Phil Simms calls that in the framework??? Ya Phil and Lynch led with the Helmet too hmmm...


I noticed that all night from Mr dunn, i yelled for Simms to STFU after i heard him say the framework reference.

[Rock Chalk]

You guys really need to learn to accept defeat graciously.

All games are badly officiated. All of them.

[Rascal]

Every lineman holds during a play. But if it's in the framework it isn't going to be called unless one falls and the other is brought down due to the holding and it becomes painfully obvious.

I was a lineman my entire football career...there wasn't a play where I didn't hold or wasn't held.

[Bronx33]

You guys really need to learn to accept defeat graciously.

All games are badly officiated. All of them.

I personally have accepted it alec, is it ok to go over the game and it's plays that pissed us off? and yes some are officiated really bad at times.

[Rascal]

Both of those defenses are built to be aggressive and protect a lead

Dude, that's exactly how our defense is built...

Really then explain why our D allowed the Pats, Giants, Eagles, Skins, etc to get back in the game after our offense had a two score lead? They sure are good at protecting that lead. :stupid:

[Bronx33]

Really then explain why our D allowed the Pats, Giants, Eagles, Skins, etc to get back in the game after our offense had a two score lead? They sure are good at protecting that lead. :stupid:


Maybe we could give the Pats, Giants, Eagles, Skins some credit? just a thought.

[Rascal]

Maybe we could give the Pats, Giants, Eagles, Skins some credit? just a thought.

Yeah I'll give them credit for scoring on an overrated defense.

Not to mention the fact that they (fontain and TJ) made the claim that this D is built to defend a lead. Obviously they aren't real good at it, and not to mention the fact I would hate to see what happened should they not have a lead (possible Indy game comes to mind).

[Mediator12]

Really then explain why our D allowed the Pats, Giants, Eagles, Skins, etc to get back in the game after our offense had a two score lead? They sure are good at protecting that lead. :stupid:

We have been over this enough. Yes, the defense has given up leads. And Yes, the Offense has shut down with those leads too. Kind of like the one first down in the fourth quarter yesterday. Kind of hard to keep leads when the offense has drives of 1:24, 0:48, and 1:31 in the fourth Quarter.

[Rascal]

Kind of hard to get a lead when the defense is giving up 31 points.

Sorry but when you score 27 points you should win the game...this one falls completely on the defense. The Miami game was both undoubtedly, and giants game is debatable but this one is quite obvious.

Yeah the offense stalled and didn't produce but it never should have mattered. When you have this awesome defense like we are supposed to have you are supposed to be able to stop teams from scoring 31 points on you.

[Mediator12]

Yeah I'll give them credit for scoring on an overrated defense.

Not to mention the fact that they (fontain and TJ) made the claim that this D is built to defend a lead. Obviously they aren't real good at it, and not to mention the fact I would hate to see what happened should they not have a lead (possible Indy game comes to mind).

Not having a lead scares the crap out of me. This offense has barely functioned in the fourth quarter this year scoring a measley 6% of their points.

The defense would have to score again to get the lead or forget about it.

[Bronx33]

Yeah I'll give them credit for scoring on an overrated defense.

Not to mention the fact that they (fontain and TJ) made the claim that this D is built to defend a lead. Obviously they aren't real good at it, and not to mention the fact I would hate to see what happened should they not have a lead (possible Indy game comes to mind).


Hmmmmm i seem to remember those come backs as hard fought and well earned and snuffed out by the D. (GOLD in the washington game,Foxworth in the philly game and D.Williams knocking down a pass to Branch on the patties final drive, the only game they totally let it go was the giants game IMO.

[RaiderH8r]

Kind of hard to get a lead when the defense is giving up 31 points.
We were running the buckle and break defense yesterday. It clearly didn't work, maybe we'll shelve it for the rest of the season.

[Mediator12]

Kind of hard to get a lead when the defense is giving up 31 points.

I believe they have had a lead in every fourth quarter except Miami. That includes yesterday. In fact, yesterday was the first time they have trailed in a game at any time since that last second loss to NYG.

The offense is just as pathetic or worse late in games.

[Rascal]

We were running the buckle and break defense yesterday. It clearly didn't work, maybe we'll shelve it for the rest of the season.

They are stupid for trying it then. When has it worked for us? Rhodes was ran out of town for trying it and yet here we are having to learn things again that most fans learned 3+ years ago.

[Rascal]

I believe they have had a lead in every fourth quarter except Miami. That includes yesterday. In fact, yesterday was the first time they have trailed in a game at any time since that last second loss to NYG.

The offense is just as pathetic or worse late in games.

Yeah they had a lead...and still couldn't win because the defense let people score.

Same can be said about our defense which is why teams know that they are still in when they get behind because our D can't stop anybody from scoring.

[Rascal]

How sad is this:
1 Chicago 3154 262.8 1119 93.3 2035 169.6 127 10.6
2 Tampa Bay 3245 270.4 1125 93.8 2120 176.7 199 16.6
3 Indianapolis 3391 282.6 1167 97.3 2224 185.3 162 13.5
4 Carolina 3393 282.8 1026 85.5 2367 197.3 194 16.2
5 Jacksonville 3399 283.3 1294 107.8 2105 175.4 201 16.8
6 Dallas 3416 284.7 1222 101.8 2194 182.8 205 17.1
7 Baltimore 3455 287.9 1292 107.7 2163 180.3 241 20.1
8 Green Bay 3475 289.6 1464 122.0 2011 167.6 242 20.2
9 Washington 3582 298.5 1320 110.0 2262 188.5 233 19.4
10 Pittsburgh 3597 299.8 1071 89.3 2526 210.5 225 18.8
11 New Orleans 3698 308.2 1637 136.4 2061 171.8 295 24.6
12 San Diego 3728 310.7 953 79.4 2775 231.3 229 19.1
13 Tennessee 3760 313.3 1245 103.8 2515 209.6 319 26.6
14 Atlanta 3795 316.3 1407 117.3 2388 199.0 237 19.8
15 Detroit 3798 316.5 1458 121.5 2340 195.0 241 20.1
16 Cleveland 3811 317.6 1549 129.1 2262 188.5 214 17.8
17 NY Jets 3812 317.7 1652 137.7 2160 180.0 264 22.0
18 NY Giants 3836 319.7 1112 92.7 2724 227.0 218 18.2
19 Arizona 3838 319.8 1350 112.5 2488 207.3 302 25.2
20 Miami 3847 320.6 1429 119.1 2418 201.5 240 20.0
21 Denver 3927 327.3 1038 86.5 2889 240.8 221 18.4
Oakland 3927 327.3 1425 118.8 2502 208.5 296 24.7
23 Minnesota 3943 328.6 1349 112.4 2594 216.2 273 22.8
24 Philadelphia 3631 330.1 1245 113.2 2386 216.9 246 22.4
25 Seattle 3648 331.6 1195 108.6 2453 223.0 208 18.9
26 Buffalo 3984 332.0 1683 140.3 2301 191.8 247 20.6
27 Kansas City 4004 333.7 1101 91.8 2903 241.9 257 21.4
28 Cincinnati 4049 337.4 1438 119.8 2611 217.6 239 19.9
29 New England 4413 367.8 1348 112.3 3065 255.4 282 23.5
30 Houston 4450 370.8 1817 151.4 2633 219.4 341 28.4
31 St. Louis 4550 379.2 1666 138.8 2884 240.3 351 29.3
32 San Francisco 4812 401.0 1381 115.1 3431 285.9 340 28.3

[Rascal]

http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_3279396

Flaws of defeat
Denver falls to 9-3 in tight division race
By Mike Klis
Denver Post Staff Writer

Larry Johnson scores the winning touchdown for the Chiefs on a 4-yard run with 9:58 left. Johnson gained 140 yards on 30 carries against the Broncos. (KC Star / David Eulitt )


Kansas City, Mo. - If it's December, and it was. If it was Arrowhead Stadium, and it was. Then there are no ifs.

The Kansas City Chiefs win.

The Denver Broncos may have put out all the stops, calling reverses and screens and Bradlee specials. But when it mattered most, win or else, the Broncos were nowhere near able to stop the hungry Chiefs.

In a wildly exciting, hard-fought, back-and-forth game, the desperate Chiefs managed to defeat the suddenly secondary suspect Broncos 31-27 on a chilly December Sunday before a bundled 78,261 at Arrowhead.

So what else is new? The win was the 17th in a row by the Chiefs in December home games. The Broncos were the victims for the fourth time in that streak, which started in 1997.

This time the Broncos flew home believing they were defeated not by the Chiefs but by themselves.

"They got 14 points off miscommunication," Broncos cornerback Darrent Williams said. "Take those away and it's a whole different ballgame."

Indeed, the most disturbing element of this game may not have been the loss itself - at 9-3, Denver continues to lead the AFC West by a game with three of its final four games against poor-record opponents - but how the Chiefs exposed the Broncos' defense, particularly in the secondary.

Like no other quarterback before in this 2005 season, the Chiefs' Trent Green spotted vulnerabilities in the Broncos' secondary on the intermediate and deep routes.

"Their linebackers have so much speed, we felt we had to back them off (in coverage) as far as we could," Chiefs coach Dick Vermeil said.

After Broncos running back Mike Anderson took a screen pass and sped 66 yards for the game's first touchdown, the Chiefs came right back with a 41-yard pass from Green to a wide-open Dante Hall. On the play, Broncos cornerback Champ Bailey released Hall about 10 yards down the sideline. As it turned out, Hall was released to freedom. No one was within the Kansas-Missouri state line of Hall when he caught it.

"Everyone was playing different coverages on that side of the field," Broncos safety John Lynch said.

The Chiefs took a 14-7 lead when running back Larry Johnson bulled in from the 1-yard line, and Broncos linebacker Al Wilson went berserk. The Broncos had just stopped Johnson on first-and- goal and second-and-goal, but on third- and-goal the Broncos made two personnel changes.

This brought not new blood, but confusion at the goal line as Johnson scored. Wilson reacted visibly, walking toward the sideline while pointing and yelling at the coaches for the late change.

"I won't talk about that," Wilson said. "It was between me and my coaches and me being a football player. It was me being firing up at the time."

________________________

Grades:

Offense: B

Denver moved the ball well, but had to settle for two field goals by Jason Elam in the second half. That hurt. Field goals weren't going to get it done in this game. In a game in which Denver did what it wanted, what will be remembered are the missed opportunities.

Defense: D

This was the Broncos' worst defensive performance of the season. Chiefs running back Larry Johnson rumbled for 140 yards, only the second runner to break the 100-yard barrier against Denver, which entered the game with the NFL's No. 1-ranked run defense. Chiefs quarterback Trent Green completed 16-of-23 passes for 253 yards and made several big plays.

Special teams: C

Dante Hall didn't kill the Broncos, but Denver was mediocre on special teams. Playing without injured special-teams captain Keith Burns, Denver's coverage units suffered. Hall averaged 23.8 yards on six kickoff returns.

Coaching: B

The plan was to attack the Chiefs on offense and stop the run on defense. It worked sometimes, but Johnson hurt Denver late. It appeared this loss was more about squandered chances and circumstances than game-planning.

Overall: C

The Broncos played well enough to win and poorly enough to lose. Poetry? No, but it was the bottom line. A win would have knocked Kansas City out of contention and put more pressure on the Chargers. The Broncos still control their destiny after a closely fought game that could have gone either way.

[Rascal]

While those Cleveland escapees from the Dawg Pound have taken a bite out of running backs, the pass rush of these new defensive linemen is all bark. This flaw forces the Broncos to rely heavily on blitzes to pressure the quarterback, which in turn places heavy responsibility on Bailey, rookie Darrent Williams and the defensive backs.

With Kansas City's Larry Johnson relentlessly pounding the football, eventually wearing down defenders and rushing for 90 of his game-high 140 yards in the fourth quarter, Denver linebackers were forced to commit quicker to the line of scrimmage, exposing larger holes in the secondary.
More than once, a peeved and embarrassed Denver cornerback was spied by everyone in the stadium chewing out a safety for not picking up a receiver, most noticeably when Kansas City's Dante Hall sneaked behind Bailey in the first quarter for a 41-yard touchdown reception.

The real cracks in Denver's invincibility, however, began to show in the second quarter, when Wilson uncharacteristically screamed at the sideline after Johnson smashed into the end zone from 1 yard. The veteran linebacker refused to say what ticked him off. But it appeared obvious. After stuffing Johnson twice in the red zone, the Broncos sent in lighter personnel on third down, and nothing can destroy a defense's confidence quicker than getting smashed in the mouth.

Was this game an aberration for Denver's defense, or the first telling sign of weakness?

"We made some mistakes we hadn't made this season," Wilson said.

I'll leave it to you Monday morning lawyers to rush to the defense of the Broncos.

But there's no arguing the truth.

In the NFL, whenever a defense rests, it won't like the verdict.




http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_3279399

[Rascal]

That will not do in a shootout.

An NFL coach told me earlier this season the Broncos' chief challenge in their playoff sprint and beyond will be their ability to score points in a shootout.

He said that is where quarterback Jake Plummer will be exposed.

The sentiment goes that if the defense wilts (it did) and the offense stagnates (it did) and the Broncos are forced to win a shootout in the end, watch out.

Given that setup, Denver is dead, its peers say.

http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_3279398

[The Big E]

We scored 30 at home against KC and won handily because the D also played big. We scored 27 on the road and lost because the D didn't play so big. I still like the way the team is playing and see no reason we won't be a 12 or 13 win team. No need to get all bent over this game.

[Mediator12]

Kind of hard to get a lead when the defense is giving up 31 points.

Sorry but when you score 27 points you should win the game...this one falls completely on the defense. The Miami game was both undoubtedly, and giants game is debatable but this one is quite obvious.

Yeah the offense stalled and didn't produce but it never should have mattered. When you have this awesome defense like we are supposed to have you are supposed to be able to stop teams from scoring 31 points on you.

Yes, when you score 27 points you should win most games. However, games are fluid and circumstances dictate reality and not averages from game to game. The offense scored 24 points in three quarters and 3 in the fourth. And the inverse is also true. The defense only allowed 10 points in the second half of a tied at halftime game; 3 of which came as a direct result of an offensive TO.

[Rascal]

Yeap their D stepped up while ours fell apart. Pretty sad that the chiefs D outperformed ours in crunch time don't you think?

[BroncoSoja]

Im sorry but when your Defense comes up with two.. Not ONE but two Key Int's and a Key 3rd down stop late in the game is this not enough?

You people dont seem to understand that lately KC is playing great football.. And they always play great in December at home.. Our D had there work cut out for them and they still stood up when it mattered... The two INT's and the key 3rd down stop should have been enough... But when you got Plummer back there it obviously is not... Our offense all year has been average... Below average without a running game.. Its been our D that has taken the step forward...

It was the Offense that didnt do what they needed to at the end of the half and blew a golden oppurtunity to get atleast 3 points.

It was the Offense (Mr Plummer) that threw that horrible INT in the RED ZONE ..

It was the Offense that could not convert on 3rd of 4th Down when the game was ticking away and we were in control of our own destiny..

All those chances were given to them by the defense standing up and doing what needed to be done...Just like they have done all season.

PS.. Just look at our Offense's 3rd down woes and tell me there not to blame for the games we loose.

[Rascal]

All those chances were given to them by the defense standing up and doing what needed to be done...Just like they have done all season.

Yeah giving up 31 points sure is what needed to be done.

So having four stops all game is good enough for you but scoring 27 points isn't? i think the colts would be your team to follow.

[Rascal]

Check out our defenses third down woes while you're at it.

[rbackfactory80]

Im sorry but when your Defense comes up with two.. Not ONE but two Key Int's and a Key 3rd down stop late in the game is this not enough?

You people dont seem to understand that lately KC is playing great football.. And they always play great in December at home.. Our D had there work cut out for them and they still stood up when it mattered... The two INT's and the key 3rd down stop should have been enough... But when you got Plummer back there it obviously is not... Our offense all year has been average... Below average without a running game.. Its been our D that has taken the step forward...

It was the Offense that didnt do what they needed to at the end of the half and blew a golden oppurtunity to get atleast 3 points.

It was the Offense (Mr Plummer) that threw that horrible INT in the RED ZONE ..

It was the Offense that could not convert on 3rd of 4th Down when the game was ticking away and we were in control of our own destiny..

All those chances were given to them by the defense standing up and doing what needed to be done...Just like they have done all season.

PS.. Just look at our Offense's 3rd down woes and tell me there not to blame for the games we loose.

Where was this key stop late in the game. I must have missed. Was that the one that gave us the ball back with 9 seconds. Yeah that was clutch.

[Rascal]

He must have meant the one after they gave up two first downs and let the chiefs burn 5 minutes off the clock.

[Mediator12]

Rascal, I know the defense played awful yesterday. They could have won this game for the team and so could the offense too. They had three chances to score after the chiefs took the lead and one first down to show for it.

It is obvious that this was the defenses worst overall game. However, the trend of the offense being unable to do anything to help late in games with the game still on the line continues. Both units have had trouble finishing games. That is the point.

[rbackfactory80]

Rascal, I know the defense played awful yesterday. They could have won this game for the team and so could the offense too. They had three chances to score after the chiefs took the lead and one first down to show for it.

It is obvious that this was the defenses worst overall game. However, the trend of the offense being unable to do anything to help late in games with the game still on the line continues. Both units have had trouble finishing games. That is the point.


The only difference with that game and us when we went to Indy was the fact that we put points on the board. Okay maybe it was not that bad.

[DrFate]

I think there are a lot of people who just don't understand modern football. They expect the defense to shut down high powered offenses, despite the fact that it just doesn't happen in this league anymore. If you're offense isn't able to score in every quarter of the game, against another team with a high powered offense, you're going to struggle to win big games in this league.
...
I still think that there are a lot of people who are stuck in yesterday's mindset that Defense wins championships, when in reality this league is about offense.

Taco,
IF we accept your premise then here is a serious problem with the way this franchise is being run. Every major move for the past 2 years has been to improve the defense (with the exception of adding Stephen Alexander).

Moves made to improve defense:
We trade Portis for Bailey
We draft DJ Williams in 04
We sign John Lynch
We draft 3 DBs early in 05
We sign the Browncos (as FA or via trade)
We get Engelburger
We trade for Sauerbraun (and draft a punter)

Moves to improve the offense:
We sign Stephen Alexander

(Also over the past 2 years we lose Sharpe and we lose Droughns.)

There is no way this team can come out, with the skill players we have now, and put up 35+ points in a playoff game. And I don't think anyone can expect them to. All the high draft picks have been on defense, all the free agent moves have been to improve the defense. IF we assume your premise then there is a disconnect between what the Broncos are trying to do with their players and what the 'reality' is.

[Rascal]

Rascal, I know the defense played awful yesterday. They could have won this game for the team and so could the offense too. They had three chances to score after the chiefs took the lead and one first down to show for it.

It is obvious that this was the defenses worst overall game. However, the trend of the offense being unable to do anything to help late in games with the game still on the line continues. Both units have had trouble finishing games. That is the point.

Yeah...the chiefs D stepped up...ours wilted away.

And the continuing defensive trend of them giving up points down the stretch like a cheap whore continues. Everybody acts like the defense gets a free pass and it's all the offenses fault. Wrong. The defense screwed the pouch on this game plain and simple. I've said it numerous times but if you score 27 points the blame does not go on the offense for the loss (barring several TO's ran back for a TD).

The thing that worries me is that this is a glimpse of a possibly game with Indy and people are going to blame the offense again when the defense is the main problem....STILL.

[Rascal]

Taco,
IF we accept your premise then here is a serious problem with the way this franchise is being run. Every major move for the past 2 years has been to improve the defense (with the exception of adding Stephen Alexander).

Moves made to improve defense:
We trade Portis for Bailey
We draft DJ Williams in 04
We sign John Lynch
We draft 3 DBs early in 05
We sign the Browncos (as FA or via trade)
We get Engelburger
We trade for Sauerbraun (and draft a punter)

Moves to improve the offense:
We sign Stephen Alexander

(Also over the past 2 years we lose Sharpe and we lose Droughns.)

There is no way this team can come out, with the skill players we have now, and put up 35+ points in a playoff game. And I don't think anyone can expect them to. All the high draft picks have been on defense, all the free agent moves have been to improve the defense. IF we assume your premise then there is a disconnect between what the Broncos are trying to do with their players and what the 'reality' is.

Rep.

I guess Shanny and Co just don't understand modern football but TJ does.

[Mediator12]

Yeah...the chiefs D stepped up...ours wilted away.

And the continuing defensive trend of them giving up points down the stretch like a cheap whore continues. Everybody acts like the defense gets a free pass and it's all the offenses fault. Wrong. The defense screwed the pouch on this game plain and simple. I've said it numerous times but if you score 27 points the blame does not go on the offense for the loss (barring several TO's ran back for a TD).

The thing that worries me is that this is a glimpse of a possibly game with Indy and people are going to blame the offense again when the defense is the main problem....STILL.

Now your just being vindictive. And, I hate to tell you this, just because you say that 27 is enough does not make it so. And for the record, if the defense was just a little worse and had not scored for this offense in three critical games this team would be 6-5 right now. There are still two parts in getting a lead and the defense has allowed this team to trail for exactly less than 5 seconds in five games

There were also several TO's that cost a minimum of six points in that game thanks to the INT's. Neither play was a good decision but I am not blaming the loss on any of that. All I ask is that you at least acknowledge the fact that in all three losses the offense scored a pathetic 3 points .

[DrFate]

I guess Shanny and Co just don't understand modern football but TJ does.

I'd like to clarify - I'm not taking a back-handed or sarcastic shot at Taco. I don't agree with his current assessment any more than I agree with his theory from last years AFC playoffs. (The team that beat the Colts last year didn't need to score 35+ points to do it.) I believe you can win with defense.

That said - I am pretty serious about my post. If, for the sake of argument, we take Taco's posts in this thread as truth - then the Broncos aren't on the right track.

Based on the FA moves and the top picks in the past 2 drafts - this team is built as a defense-first team. The offense is 'serviceable'. And I don't see how anyone can expect them to put up Indy-like numbers.

[Rascal]

Now your just being vindictive. And, I hate to tell you this, just because you say that 27 is enough does not make it so. And for the record, if the defense was just a little worse and had not scored for this offense in three critical games this team would be 6-5 right now. There are still two parts in getting a lead and the defense has allowed this team to trail for exactly less than 5 seconds in five games

There were also several TO's that cost a minimum of six points in that game thanks to the INT's. Neither play was a good decision but I am not blaming the loss on any of that. All I ask is that you at least acknowledge the fact that in all three losses the offense scored a pathetic 3 points .

Obviously it wasn't enough as we lost, but it should have been.

You must have missed my previous posts in this thread or others where I said the offense stagnated, which lead to my comment about how their D stepped up but ours wilted.

[broncofan2438]

Does Champ need some practice on coverage?

[ScotchTanShan]

The real problem is that the Donks don't think Bell can be a primary runner and will get hurt if given the full load. That means the run game suffers and you force Plummer to make too many plays. If you keep putting him in pressure situations, Plummer is going to make a mistake.

For all the defensive moves and drafting - it seems you simply replace one weakness for another. The run D is better this year, many would say? But there is no real pressure put on the QB. Any pressure has to come from Blitzing and then leaves pretty wide gaps for teams to gash the 2ndary.

This is not a team that can afford to turn the ball over really. They have to play within their limited abilities and if they do so they will be in any game usually. Woah, they are a Marty Schottenheimer team!!!!

[Lidderer]

Taco,
IF we accept your premise then here is a serious problem with the way this franchise is being run. Every major move for the past 2 years has been to improve the defense (with the exception of adding Stephen Alexander).

Moves made to improve defense:
We trade Portis for Bailey
We draft DJ Williams in 04
We sign John Lynch
We draft 3 DBs early in 05
We sign the Browncos (as FA or via trade)
We get Engelburger
We trade for Sauerbraun (and draft a punter)

Moves to improve the offense:
We sign Stephen Alexander

(Also over the past 2 years we lose Sharpe and we lose Droughns.)

There is no way this team can come out, with the skill players we have now, and put up 35+ points in a playoff game. And I don't think anyone can expect them to. All the high draft picks have been on defense, all the free agent moves have been to improve the defense. IF we assume your premise then there is a disconnect between what the Broncos are trying to do with their players and what the 'reality' is.

How convenient that you left out ron dayne, and jed weaver.

Wait, good move actually.

[Mediator12]

Obviously it wasn't enough as we lost, but it should have been.

You must have missed my previous posts in this thread or others where I said the offense stagnated, which lead to my comment about how their D stepped up but ours wilted.

I must have rascal. Sorry about that.

One thing is for sure though, if the defense does not pressure the QB better down the stretch this team is going nowhere quick. KC finally was able to expose the young CB's in a pressure filled situation EVEN in off coverage for the most part. At least they got some early playoff experience IMHO.

[Lidderer]

At least they got some early playoff experience IMHO.

and denver is 8-1 after losses @ arrowhead during shanahan's tenure.

Also, i just wasted 4 minutes researching that irrelevant stat.

[DrFate]

How convenient that you left out ron dayne, and jed weaver.

Wait, good move actually.

Dayne should be on the list, I guess. I don't consider that much of an investment though - he has played well enough, but I don't think he cost much.

[Lidderer]

Dayne should be on the list, I guess. I don't consider that much of an investment though - he has played well enough, but I don't think he cost much.

right, I know. No need to get all defensi---wrong choice of words.

[DrFate]

right, I know. No need to get all defensi---wrong choice of words.

:)

I'm not defensive - you are correct in your additions to my list.:thumbs:

[Lidderer]

:)

I'm not defensive - you are correct in your additions to my list.:thumbs:

nah, i know what you mean, I was just being tongue-in-cheek. I wouldn't put dayne or weaver(ha, I think he was cut before the season when we had him anyway) on the list. It is remarkable how much focus has been placed on D. Also of note and to save you time: TJ doesn't respond to the line of reasoning you presented. That roughly translates into: "Wow, excellent point....damnit!"

[Bob's your Information Minister]

I bet Bob and other KC fans would admit if Denver had a solid S another WR threat on 3rd downs and a Legit TE we'd be scarier.

Well hell, you give us three upgrades at talent and we'd be better too.