Roughing the passer

[watermock]

I'm all for protecting the passer, but isn't it 2.5 steps or 1.5...Garcia was hit right as he released the ball, Williams INT took it to the house, and they called roughing, and it was ludicrous...

can the NFL possibly do more to promote the passing game? Hell, in the good ole days you could rough up QB's and recivers could be mauled till the ball was in the air...now you can't breath on them...it's amazing to me that teams don't regularly score 50...:cuss:

So they get the roughing call, and Detroit scores to pull within 5 instead of being behind by 19..

It's not because a call went against my HornHeads, it was that Garcia was hit right on release...it was why he threw the pick...I'm just amazed...ticky tack penalties are totally out of hand now...

[GonzoLays]

The only reason they changed the passing rules was to keep Black QB's from taking over the game.

If the black athlete took over the QB position, then game would be virtually consisted of black players. And when you consider 90% of the fans in stands are white, you can understand why the league made the decision they did.

[watermock]

Jesus Christ....I never heard anything so ludicrous on this board...ever...Just because Brad Johnson is outplaying Cullpepper, it's not about color...

[ludo21]

Jesus Christ....I never heard anything so ludicrous on this board...ever...


:loopy:

i see his point, BUT i think it is more the NFl trying to give the white collar fans what they want, and thats points, not gritty Defensive battles.

[GonzoLays]

Jesus Christ....I never heard anything so ludicrous on this board...ever...Just because Brad Johnson is outplaying Cullpepper, it's not about color...

NFL owners are in it for the money, there is no coincedence that of the 6 or so starting black qb's in this league, 4 of them are in the South where there are more black people to buy tickets.

1) New Orleans -- Aaron Brooks
2) Atlanta -- Michael Vick
3) Tennessee -- Steve McNair
4) Jacksonville -- Byron Leftwhich

The other two starting black qb's are Daunte Culpepper in Minnesota and Donovan McNabb in Philly.

Owners are in it for the money, don't ever forget.

[Sir Mawn]

Gonzo, why is it that you so frequently manage to bring race into any discussion?

[GonzoLays]

Gonzo, why is it that you so frequently manage to bring race into any discussion?


It is just an intelligent discussion involving factors around why the NFL changed the passing rules. There are different view points as to why they did and one them coincides with the explosion of starting black qb's in the NFL and changing the passing rules to limit the number of starting black qbs in the NFL. Take it as you will.

I am indifferent on the subject. I can understand why the NFL did it if that was the case. You simply cannot alienate your fan base by having the only white guys on the team being the punter, kicker and offensive lineman.

Larry Bird said it in an interview not along ago and I quote, "Well, I think so. (It's) good for a fan base, because, as we all know, the majority of fans are white America. If you just had a couple of white guys in there, you might get them a little excited. The greatest athletes in the world are African-American."

Is Larry a bigot for stating the obvious, I think not. It is common sense really.

[Pezman]

Gonzo, why is it that you so frequently manage to bring race into any discussion?

This isnt the only board that he preaches this stuff at. Too bad that he regards the color of skin as a justification for rule changes eh?

[SoCalBronco]

I never knew it was about race.

All this time I thought the league did it to win Prince Gayton a championship.

Silly me.

[BroncoBuff]

The only reason they changed the passing rules was to keep Black QB's from taking over the game.

If the black athlete took over the QB position, then game would be virtually consisted of black players. And when you consider 90% of the fans in stands are white, you can understand why the league made the decision they did.
I'm generally pretty skeptical about racism in America . . . I think there is very, very little left today, and there are plenty of angry people loudly pointing out what little remains.

BUT . . .

I DO notice, whenever I look at the tailgating photos or party photos, etc, on this board, or when I look in the stands during games . . . that people bend over backwards to buy the jerseys of white players. You can certainly understand Elway, of course. No problem there. Even McCaffrey to a certain extent . . .

but, shouldn't there be more Rod Smith jerseys than Eddie Mac jerseys? They had roughly the same numbers while they played together, and neither was a big personality - but there can be no doubt that Smith is the more important Bronco figure historically. By a good margin now that he's broken the franchise touchdown record. And yet Eddie Mac jerseys outnumber his by a small, but definite margin. I suppose Eddie Mac did have the "personality" of wearing the least possible padding and taking the most possible abuse . . . but he's been gone 3 years now.

And what's with all the John Lynch jerseys? Surely Trevor Pryce - a Super Bowl winning Bronco legacy - should have many more jerseys, right? Wrong. Lynch jerseys outnumber Pryce jerseys 4-1 or so. Even Mecklenburg and Gradishar jerseys seem to outnumber Pryce jerseys. What's up with that?

I suppose people like to identify with people most like them - and I doubt there's many black folks with Gradishar or Lynch jerseys. It just seems an awkward strain the way people choose jerseys.

I'm just sayin, is all . . .

[epicSocialism4tw]

It is just an intelligent discussion involving factors around why the NFL changed the passing rules. There are different view points as to why they did and one them coincides with the explosion of starting black qb's in the NFL and changing the passing rules to limit the number of starting black qbs in the NFL. Take it as you will.
I am indifferent on the subject. I can understand why the NFL did it if that was the case. You simply cannot alienate your fan base by having the only white guys on the team being the punter, kicker and offensive lineman.

Larry Bird said it in an interview not along ago and I quote, "Well, I think so. (It's) good for a fan base, because, as we all know, the majority of fans are white America. If you just had a couple of white guys in there, you might get them a little excited. The greatest athletes in the world are African-American."
Is Larry a bigot for stating the obvious, I think not. It is common sense really.

Addressing the first point...I dont think that quarterback protection rules are indicative in any way of a conspiratorial marketing ploy towards white America. You have to put on a jet pack to fly over that gap in logic.

There are many reasons why the quarterback has become protected. Look at what happened to Culpepper this season. Mike Vick is probably the most injury prone starting QB in the league (maybe Pennington, but Vick is right up there). The rules are there to protect a vulnerable player who isnt fully aware of what's happening around him from being seriously injured. The NFL knew they to do something when QB's start getting head injuries. Linemen and Linebackers are getting bigger and faster everyday and are taught technique to destroy thier opponent physically.

Your basic assumption is that black athletes are tougher than white athletes. I would have to say that that is nothing more than a juvenile observation and one that reduces a complex idea into something irrelevant.

Regarding the second emboldened point...
Tell Larry Bird to pass that information on to Luis Figo, David Beckham, Raul, Zinedine Zidane, Ronaldihno, Ronaldo, Christiano Ronaldo, Paul Scholes, Roberto Carlos, Peter Schmiechel, Michael Ballack, Denis Bergcamp, etc, etc.

There are plenty of world-class athletes in sports outside of America's favorites that are of different ethnicities.

[epicSocialism4tw]

I'm generally pretty skeptical about racism in America . . . I think there is very, very little left today, and there are plenty of angry people loudly pointing out what little remains.

BUT . . .

I DO notice, whenever I look at the tailgating photos or party photos, etc, on this board, or when I look in the stands during games . . . that people bend over backwards to buy the jerseys of white players. You can certainly understand Elway, of course. No problem there. Even McCaffrey to a certain extent . . .

but, shouldn't there be more Rod Smith jerseys than Eddie Mac jerseys? They had roughly the same numbers while they played together, and neither was a big personality - but there can be no doubt that Smith is the more important Bronco figure historically. By a good margin now that he's broken the franchise touchdown record. And yet Eddie Mac jerseys outnumber his by a small, but definite margin. I suppose Eddie Mac did have the "personality" of wearing the least possible padding and taking the most possible abuse . . . but he's been gone 3 years now.

And what's with all the John Lynch jerseys? Surely Trevor Pryce - a Super Bowl winning Bronco legacy - should have many more jerseys, right? Wrong. Lynch jerseys outnumber Pryce jerseys 4-1 or so. Even Mecklenburg and Gradishar jerseys seem to outnumber Pryce jerseys. What's up with that?

I suppose people like to identify with people most like them - and I doubt there's many black folks with Gradishar or Lynch jerseys. It just seems an awkward strain the way people choose jerseys.

I'm just sayin, is all . . .

You raise a valid point. I think that there is an element of favoritism amongst each cultural subgroup towards the players that they most identify with. It's a cultural thing.

Here in Texas, Mexican fans used to come out in droves to see the Mavericks with Eddie Najera on the team. They have quit coming to the games for the most part. It's too bad because now corporations are buying up their season tickets to give for business promotion. Those fans were awesome at the game.

I dont think that that is something to get in a mess about though. Cultures really are different and it's difficult to adopt someone elses culture. The best thing to do is to appreciate them anyway and respect them.

[BroncoBuff]

NFL owners are in it for the money, there is no coincedence that of the 6 or so starting black qb's in this league, 4 of them are in the South where there are more black people to buy tickets.

1) New Orleans -- Aaron Brooks
2) Atlanta -- Michael Vick
3) Tennessee -- Steve McNair
4) Jacksonville -- Byron Leftwhich

The other two starting black qb's are Daunte Culpepper in Minnesota and Donovan McNabb in Philly.

Owners are in it for the money, don't ever forget.
That's bull. McNair was drafted when they were still in Houston, I think. And what about Minnesota? First, Randall Cunningham - then Culpepper! (And what about 10 years of Dennis Green?) The Steelers and Bears both gave Kordell Stewart EVERY POSSIBLE chance! And he's not just black - he's also gay! And what about Denver? Aside from the fact that Denver's Marlin Briscoe was the first black QB back in the 60s - but also, when Elway missed a few games in I think 92, they rotated Maddox and a black guy I don't remember the name of. One play in - one play out. Like the old Morton/Staubach 75 Cowboys. And what about Philly? Randall for a decade or so . . . and then McNabb. I suppose you can say McNabb is a talent that trancends race, and you're right. But that city ADORES him!

The black QB thing is just a matter of more black kids coming up as QBs. I'm not racist, but I thought Jarrious Jackson was a complete joke - and if I thought about it, Shanny might've kept him on the practice squad/3rd string partially because he was black - that sounds unlikely, but I recall every time Jarrious played - Jarrious sucked!

You know, we would all LAUGH if somebody said "where are all the white basketball players? That's racism!" Why would we laugh? Because blacks are the best players by a 10 to 1 ratio. So, why can't it be that QB is something whites might have some kind of advantage at for whatever stupid reason? I'll say this: offensive line is obviously a place where whites can still compete fairly well - for whatever stupid reason. I have no idea what that reason is - low center of gravity? Fat gut and slim upper bodies? Who knows?

You say owners want to make money?

I say coaches and GMs want to WIN - period.

[watermock]

[QUOTE][ that people bend over backwards to buy the jerseys of white players. /QUOTE]

Total racist bullshiat...Champ Bailey and Rod Smith have alot of jerseys..if some people get Plummer jerseys that racist...your full of crap and I'm calling you on it...

[watermock]

Gonzolays has been a apoligist for ages

He is an idiot IMO...

He would think Minnesota killed their black QB for a white one...the guy is a moron...

[BroncoBuff]

You raise a valid point. I think that there is an element of favoritism amongst each cultural subgroup towards the players that they most identify with. It's a cultural thing.

Here in Texas, Mexican fans used to come out in droves to see the Mavericks with Eddie Najera on the team. They have quit coming to the games for the most part. It's too bad because now corporations are buying up their season tickets to give for business promotion. Those fans were awesome at the game.

I dont think that that is something to get in a mess about though. Cultures really are different and it's difficult to adopt someone elses culture. The best thing to do is to appreciate them anyway and respect them.
You're right! But we don't criticize the mexican-american community for loving Eddie! I see you're from Abilene (prettiest town I ever seen) so you might not know, lots of folks don't, but Denver has a HUGE Latino community, and they love Eddie, too.

Why does nobody call the Latinos racist, and nobody really calls GonzoLays racist, but everybody feels free to call whites racist? Even ME in my post about team jerseys. And I'M WHITE! Actually, I DO know why people do that. The front-runner/majority group can always be pulled down. It's always open season. Be it race, Bill Gates, politics, Tom Cruise, music, Wal-Mart, whatever . . . it's open season on the front runner/majority. And it's as American as apple pie! :USA:

________

Hey, llama - I used to live in Wichita Falls, and I just watched "Friday Night Lights" last night for the first time. How are things down there (where they treat you square)

[BroncoBuff]

by BroncoBuff1 . . . notice that people bend over backwards to buy the jerseys of white players?

Total racist bullshiat...Champ Bailey and Rod Smith have alot of jerseys..if some people get Plummer jerseys that racist...your full of crap and I'm calling you on it...
mock, I'll give you the Champ jerseys . . . there's lots of Champ. But Eddie Mac definitely still outnumbers Rod, though by a fairly small margin.

And I didn't even mention Plummer, but . . . good point!

[watermock]

You don't even understand the point you dimwit...the pointwas that plenty of peiple buy mechenedise that are from black players..

WTF are you yapping about you moron? Look you dimwit, everyone supported Cullepper in Minny, and noone blinked...all this imaginary racism is total propoganda...

It's worthless and devisive...so I son't care sue me...It makes me angry honestly...there are assertions that are totalluy untrue...

YOU MADE THE ASSERTION YOU DIMWIT...

[BroncoBuff]

I should come clean about my defense of Pryce: If I were to buy a jersey, it'd be Trevor or maybe Lepsis. (Lepsis more because he's from my college and he's a great player than because he's white.)

[BroncoBuff]

You don't even understand the point you dimwit...the pointwas that plenty of peiple buy mechenedise that are from black players..

WTF are you yapping about you moron? Look you dimwit, everyone supported Cullepper in Minny, and noone blinked...all this imaginary racism is total propoganda...

It's worthless and devisive...so I son't care sue me...It makes me angry honestly...there are assertions that are totalluy untrue...

YOU MADE THE ASSERTION YOU DIMWIT...
Yeah, I made the assertion . . . and I stand by it. When it comes to the ubiquitous replica player jerseys - fans buy a diproportionate number of white player jerseys. I'm just sayin' is all . . . keepin' it real!

Angryllama probably nailed the reason - people identify with others like them - from their neighborhoods/sub-social groups/religions/even races (although that's expanding on his post a bit). And there's nothing wrong with that.

[watermock]

Do you honestly think I care who buys the most jerseys?

Do you think I am a total moron?

That is the whole point...there was an insiuation and I addresed it...bottom line.

If you want to have a dose of Gonzo and buy it, he's upt fro sale...stone cold fact are clear and present...and another thing, oh never mind on the recist coments...they are entitled to their pathetic crap...

[watermock]

Yeah, I made the assertion . . . and I stand by it. When it comes to the ubiquitous replica player jerseys - fans buy a diproportionate number of white player jerseys. I'm just sayin' is all . . . keepin' it real!

Angryllama probably nailed the reason - people identify with others like them - from their neighborhoods/sub-social groups/ even races. And there's nothing wrong with that.


WTF makes you think I was talking about Jersey? They are commonly bought and sold...good god your an idiot.. Why would I care if they were 300 dollars...that wasn't the issue you dimwit...if they want to charge 600 for a stupid jersey, that is their right...honestly, I would't pay more than 80. and that is too mcuh actually.l...175 is a jokend enyone with half a brain knows it...I dont care what you think...what I say is true and clear...period...

[BroncoBuff]

Do you honestly think I care who buys the most jerseys?

Do you think I am a total moron?

First point: No, it's not WHO buys the jerseys, it's WHICH PLAYERS' JERSEYS they are, and that most are white.

As for the second point . . . I take the Fifth.

[BroncoBuff]

...good god your an idiot...
Yes, yes. I'm an idiot.

Forgive me?

[BroncoBuff]

I should come clean about my defense of Pryce: If I were to buy a jersey, it'd be Trevor or maybe Lepsis. (Lepsis more because he's from my college and he's a great player than because he's white.)
No - it'd be TREVOR PRYCE - #93 in 3rd color orange . . .

You know, a Trevor Pryce jersey - like the one with all the Chefs O-Linemen's palm prints all over it?!

Yeah! THAT Trevor!

[watermock]

Yes, yes. I'm an idiot.

Forgive me?

Let's clear that up right now. to avaid any confusion about your idiocy...

[watermock]

BTW idiot, did I mentin Pryce's numeber

[watermock]

No, it's not WHO buys the jerseys, it's WHICH PLAYERS' JERSEYS they are, and that most are white.


Could you possibly say anthing more idiotic?

[BroncoBuff]

Could you possibly say anthing more idiotic?
Nope. That was my best shot.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Hey, llama - I used to live in Wichita Falls, and I just watched "Friday Night Lights" last night for the first time. How are things down there (where they treat you square)

Abilene is a unique place. Cowboys, Oil Barons, Cattle Ranchers, Clergy, and College students. Did you know that Abilene has more churches per capita than anywhere else in the world? I spend alot of time here and in Fort Worth.

[WhyNotMe]

I'm generally pretty skeptical about racism in America . . . I think there is very, very little left today, and there are plenty of angry people loudly pointing out what little remains.

BUT . . .

I DO notice, whenever I look at the tailgating photos or party photos, etc, on this board, or when I look in the stands during games . . . that people bend over backwards to buy the jerseys of white players. You can certainly understand Elway, of course. No problem there. Even McCaffrey to a certain extent . . .

but, shouldn't there be more Rod Smith jerseys than Eddie Mac jerseys? They had roughly the same numbers while they played together, and neither was a big personality - but there can be no doubt that Smith is the more important Bronco figure historically. By a good margin now that he's broken the franchise touchdown record. And yet Eddie Mac jerseys outnumber his by a small, but definite margin. I suppose Eddie Mac did have the "personality" of wearing the least possible padding and taking the most possible abuse . . . but he's been gone 3 years now.

And what's with all the John Lynch jerseys? Surely Trevor Pryce - a Super Bowl winning Bronco legacy - should have many more jerseys, right? Wrong. Lynch jerseys outnumber Pryce jerseys 4-1 or so. Even Mecklenburg and Gradishar jerseys seem to outnumber Pryce jerseys. What's up with that?

I suppose people like to identify with people most like them - and I doubt there's many black folks with Gradishar or Lynch jerseys. It just seems an awkward strain the way people choose jerseys.

I'm just sayin, is all . . .
Well when racism doesnt affect you, you would think there was very little. THERE IS A TON OF RACISM in this country and its hidden with smiles. Or its hidden through being followed by cops or by retailers in a store. Your post is uninformed and basically insulting to those who are affected by the disease of racism everyday.

[missingnumber7]

I'm all for protecting the passer, but isn't it 2.5 steps or 1.5...Garcia was hit right as he released the ball, Williams INT took it to the house, and they called roughing, and it was ludicrous...

can the NFL possibly do more to promote the passing game? Hell, in the good ole days you could rough up QB's and recivers could be mauled till the ball was in the air...now you can't breath on them...it's amazing to me that teams don't regularly score 50...:cuss:

So they get the roughing call, and Detroit scores to pull within 5 instead of being behind by 19..

It's not because a call went against my HornHeads, it was that Garcia was hit right on release...it was why he threw the pick...I'm just amazed...ticky tack penalties are totally out of hand now...
I didn't see the play but I heard PA's comments on it. And they all believed that the flag was thrown because of contact with the helmet. I agree with the promotion of the passing game by the NFL, but I think that they need to realize that they have a hold on the nation during football season. Look at fantasy numbers...its the #1 rated game...baseball used to be the biggest thing but its fantasy football.
And if you think its a controversy would Jeff Garcia get in on any of it...common...if its a real controversy it would just be against the Vikes...cuz we all know they belong on a boat with strippers.

[Sean]

Do you think I am a total moron?


:loopy:

[Alkazar]

Well when racism doesnt affect you, you would think there was very little. THERE IS A TON OF RACISM in this country and its hidden with smiles. Or its hidden through being followed by cops or by retailers in a store. Your post is uninformed and basically insulting to those who are affected by the disease of racism everyday.
I beg to differ with you, while racism does still exist, it is not nearly the problem anymore that it is being made out to be. In fact the larger problem now is reverse-racism, the tendency to favor minorities over whites. Either is still pure racism and needs to be erradicated entirely. We should be judging people on thier merits, words and deeds, not by any other measuring stick.

[GonzoLays]

Addressing the first point...I dont think that quarterback protection rules are indicative in any way of a conspiratorial marketing ploy towards white America. You have to put on a jet pack to fly over that gap in logic.

There are many reasons why the quarterback has become protected. Look at what happened to Culpepper this season. Mike Vick is probably the most injury prone starting QB in the league (maybe Pennington, but Vick is right up there). The rules are there to protect a vulnerable player who isnt fully aware of what's happening around him from being seriously injured. The NFL knew they to do something when QB's start getting head injuries. Linemen and Linebackers are getting bigger and faster everyday and are taught technique to destroy thier opponent physically.

Your basic assumption is that black athletes are tougher than white athletes. I would have to say that that is nothing more than a juvenile observation and one that reduces a complex idea into something irrelevant.

Regarding the second emboldened point...
Tell Larry Bird to pass that information on to Luis Figo, David Beckham, Raul, Zinedine Zidane, Ronaldihno, Ronaldo, Christiano Ronaldo, Paul Scholes, Roberto Carlos, Peter Schmiechel, Michael Ballack, Denis Bergcamp, etc, etc.

There are plenty of world-class athletes in sports outside of America's favorites that are of different ethnicities.

First of all you completely misinterpreted my original post.You must be able to comprehend what you are reading first then and only then can you respond. You assumed to much into what I wrote. One premise you felt that I made was that black athletes are tougher than white athletes. I never wrote that. You may feel that to be true, but I think otherwise. So basically you are arguing with yourself on a point that you made. Good for you.

Secondly your logic regarding that the rules were changed due to the "vulnerability of the QB position" is about as far fetched as you claim my original post to be. You act as if head injuries to the QB is a new phenomenon in football. You further your UN-logical point by saying that lineman and linebackers are getting bigger but you fail to mention that QBs and offensive lineman are growing at the same rate as the defensive players.

And lastly you took one sentence out of the Larry Bird quote and ran off on a tangent with it. Once again you could not comprehend what you were reading. The quote was put in the original post to reinforce the basic premise of my original argument: you have to keep your customer base happy by giving them what they want and when you give them what they want, you as a business make more money. If 90% of the paying customers in the stand are white, you better believe they want white players on that field in some glamour position. I don't see too many guys in the stands with Tom Nalen or Jason Elam jerseys on. Do you?

[watermock]

Yeah, I made the assertion . . . and I stand by it. When it comes to the ubiquitous replica player jerseys - fans buy a diproportionate number of white player jerseys. I'm just sayin' is all . . . keepin' it real!

Angryllama probably nailed the reason - people identify with others like them - from their neighborhoods/sub-social groups/religions/even races (although that's expanding on his post a bit). And there's nothing wrong with that.

Oh, because Floppy Ed was perhaps the toughest player ever to don a bronco uni it's racist? Or an Elway jersey makes you racist? The racism/ignorace I'm hearing is coming from the other side of the fence, and I didn't make the fence. Just listen to the assertion again...they are changing the rules to protect white QB's....it's so ludicrous it's comical, but anything to bring up the race card...I'm done with this stupidity...the real insinuation here was reversed racism, that there is some conspiracy to protect white QB's...don't white and black QB's get the same rulebook you moron? Or do Black QB's get to get whacked while white ones are treated with white gloves?...I'm the first one to admit that Payaton is pampered, I think it's still legal to sack him...

The NFL tightened the rules to protect QB's from vicious hits, and the fact most of all, they wanted more passing...do you think they tightened the contact rules to protect white players too? It's all been to keep scoring high, nothing else....I'm done with this one before I say something I regret...I'm done this this comedy...I will say this much first however...noone has denied racism, and it's a dark history so to speak, and the NFL was a white mans club, so was baseball...but those days are over...do you even have a clue that it was the 50's before you started seeing blacks and hispanics in MLB or the NFL, or even the NBA....it's strictly a matter of talent now...do you see favortism to Leinhart over the Texas QB...Taylor I think...I imagine you do...is that why writers are saying its a two man race, both black? Just never mind...

[epicSocialism4tw]

Okay, so your point is that the athletic player is destined to take over the position because that style of play is ultimately more effective...what does that have to do with protecting a vulnerable player in the pocket? Nothing.

I also contend with the statement that your imagined evolution of the offensive system is natural and is more effective. If that was the case, you would see alot more situations where the running back takes a direct snap and players like Matt Jones would be used much more in the backfield. Pocket passing has it's obvious advantages. It's beneficial to have an overseer on offense whose job it is to recognize tendancies real time and exploit them. A field general. Pocket passing also spreads the field for the offense to make the most of it's 11 players.

Even if the league was made up solely of John Elways and Randall Cunninghams, there would still be a large percentage of drop back passing plays. Peyton Manning is the top QB in the league because of his ability to outsmart the defense and make accurate throws downfield.

[bendog]

Gonzo, you do realize that nawlins kept Brooks over a local kid named Jake Delhomme don't you? In one of the biggest mistakes the franchise ever made.

And, McNair was drafted when they were still in Hou, as I recall, and last time I looked Hou was electing guys like Tom Delay. lol