dumb analysts

[Gort]

i've been noticing something in this year's press coverage of the Broncos that bothers me. if it's not rebutted by somebody with a national platform, it will become conventional wisdom and be repeated as naseum as if it were a fact. here's what's rubbing me wrong.

almost every analyst discussing the Broncos talks about the running game here as if the running backs are just sort of journeymen and that it's the system making them so good. i think that mindset serves to dimish the accomplishments of all Broncos running backs by giving the coaching staff the lion's share of the credit. i'm all in favor of giving the OL coach and the OL credit, and even Shanahan and Kubiak credit when they deserve it. but this "talking point" that's being repeated by the robots on CBS/FOX/ESPN etc. everytime they talk about a Broncos RB gaining 100 yards in a game serves only to put them all on the same level as interchangeable cogs in a machine that will run just as well with or without them.

the reason i don't like this is that i think TD was a special running back. there was a fellow in Chicago whose career was cut short 30-some years ago by an injury. he accomplished much less than TD, but his name is spoken breathlessly when people talk about the handful of greatest running backs of all time. he even made it to the HOF based on this reputation, despite having gained less than 5000 yds over 6 seasons!

i think TD was headed toward a hall of fame career (6400+ yards over a 4 year period!!!) until he was injured. however, the more that the mantra about Denver's running backs being interchangeable is repeated and the more it seeps into the consciousness of the HOF voters and everyone else who is only casually familiar with what TD accomplished, the less TD's accomplishments will be considered a result of his ability as a player. that's what bugs me.

if Gale Sayers can make it to the HOF on the basis of his 6 seasons in the league, surely TD is as deserving as well (actually more deserving).

this has been bugging me more and more each week as i hear the same harebrained comments from analysts. if they want to say that "except for TD who was special, Denver uses a system that allows good running backs to prosper more than any other team", then i'd be fine with that. but to say that TD, Portis, Anderson, Gary, et. al. are all the same and all interchangeable in Denver's system is just not true in my opinion.

[RhymesayersDU]

TD and Portis were legitimately good.

Tatum could be, maybe.

The rest were system products, IMO.

[Ratboy]

Good movie.

[Ratboy]

TD and Portis were legitimately good.

Tatum could be, maybe.

The rest were system products, IMO.

Droughns was a system back? He's on pace to break 1000 yards for the Browns.

[RhymesayersDU]

Droughns was a system back? He's on pace to break 1000 yards for the Browns.
1000 yards is what, 65 yards a game?

He's not a bad back by any means, he has a place starting in the NFL for sure... But he's not TD, he's not Portis, or LT, or Alexander, etc. I'd say he's decent/good, but not a great back.

[Ratboy]

1000 yards is what, 65 yards a game?

He's not a bad back by any means, he has a place starting in the NFL for sure... But he's not TD, he's not Portis, or LT, or Alexander, etc. I'd say he's decent/good, but not a great back.

Well it's a accomplishment in the Browns organization.

[Gort]

for the record, i liked all of these running backs. of course, i'm a Broncos fan so of course i'd say that. i just think it's unfair for the national media to lump TD into the same bucket with the rest and not recognize that he was something special. i think Portis and Anderson and Droughns (et. al.) are all good backs and being in a good system on a good team probably adds something like 20%-30% to their stats (pulled out of thin air). i just don't want to see TD's legacy lost among all this groupthink by these analysts. the more they repeat that crap about "it's not the RB, it's the system" when they talk about Denver's running game, the more they diminish what TD accomplished.

[RhymesayersDU]

Well it's a accomplishment in the Browns organization.
Yeah, but simply getting a first down is an accomplishment for the Browns! ;)

[2KBack]

The media has every reason to believe that the system is more important than the back. Denver has consistantly plugged rookies and no names into the RB position and excelled. It's been mentioned around her many many times that the system makes average backs look good, but you put a special guy back there and he is unstoppable, see TD. The arguments for TD are fine, TD is probably my second favorite bronco ever. Still though, if I was an outsider looking in, I would but the focus on the system too. 3 rookies over 1000, 2 converted fullbacks. Droughns and Portis are the only ones doing anything post-denver, but niether are as effective as they were here.

[RedskinBronco]

I can live with the whole "anyone can run in Denver" because it shows that we have a superior system that other NFL teams haven't been able to copy.

what bothers me to no end though is the fact that everyone in the media loves to say "Denver is a big surprise this year" and "we had them at 6-10 so they have really surprised this season."

Why is it so freakin' hard to believe that a 10-6 team the past 2 seasons with stupid letdowns can't be 7-2 and finally playing up to its potential?! Just because we signed the whole Cleveland Browns line? Last time I checked, those guys had all the talent in the world and maybe just maybe they needed to go to a winning organization to truly show their skills.

Nah... the media would have you believe that this is a one time magical season. Un-freakin-believable. ::)

[RhymesayersDU]

I can live with the whole "anyone can run in Denver" because it shows that we have a superior system that other NFL teams haven't been able to copy.

what bothers me to no end though is the fact that everyone in the media loves to say "Denver is a big surprise this year" and "we had them at 6-10 so they have really surprised this season."

Why is it so freakin' hard to believe that a 10-6 team the past 2 seasons with stupid letdowns can't be 7-2 and finally playing up to its potential?! Just because we signed the whole Cleveland Browns line? Last time I checked, those guys had all the talent in the world and maybe just maybe they needed to go to a winning organization to truly show their skills.

Nah... the media would have you believe that this is a one time magical season. Un-freakin-believable. ::)
Whoa there.

Half this board, myself included, thought we'd go 8-8.

Even wabbit, who spends a lot of time around the team, thought that.

This isn't a magical season, but let's face it, nobody knew what the Browns were capable of, and nobody knew our rookies would play this well this soon. And after last year's 20 INT season, nobody knew Jake would play this great.

I mean, everybody likes to crack back on the media, but people here had those same questions about the Browns, people here thought Shanny had lost his mind drafting 3 CBs, etc.

The media doesn't hate us, or anything. There were legitimate questions surrounding the Broncos in the off-season, and the analysts had to ask those tough questions.

[epicSocialism4tw]

i've been noticing something in this year's press coverage of the Broncos that bothers me. if it's not rebutted by somebody with a national platform, it will become conventional wisdom and be repeated as naseum as if it were a fact. here's what's rubbing me wrong.

almost every analyst discussing the Broncos talks about the running game here as if the running backs are just sort of journeymen and that it's the system making them so good. i think that mindset serves to dimish the accomplishments of all Broncos running backs by giving the coaching staff the lion's share of the credit. i'm all in favor of giving the OL coach and the OL credit, and even Shanahan and Kubiak credit when they deserve it. but this "talking point" that's being repeated by the robots on CBS/FOX/ESPN etc. everytime they talk about a Broncos RB gaining 100 yards in a game serves only to put them all on the same level as interchangeable cogs in a machine that will run just as well with or without them.

the reason i don't like this is that i think TD was a special running back. there was a fellow in Chicago whose career was cut short 30-some years ago by an injury. he accomplished much less than TD, but his name is spoken breathlessly when people talk about the handful of greatest running backs of all time. he even made it to the HOF based on this reputation, despite having gained less than 5000 yds over 6 seasons!

i think TD was headed toward a hall of fame career (6400+ yards over a 4 year period!!!) until he was injured. however, the more that the mantra about Denver's running backs being interchangeable is repeated and the more it seeps into the consciousness of the HOF voters and everyone else who is only casually familiar with what TD accomplished, the less TD's accomplishments will be considered a result of his ability as a player. that's what bugs me.

if Gale Sayers can make it to the HOF on the basis of his 6 seasons in the league, surely TD is as deserving as well (actually more deserving).

this has been bugging me more and more each week as i hear the same harebrained comments from analysts. if they want to say that "except for TD who was special, Denver uses a system that allows good running backs to prosper more than any other team", then i'd be fine with that. but to say that TD, Portis, Anderson, Gary, et. al. are all the same and all interchangeable in Denver's system is just not true in my opinion.


Good post.

I have had the same problem with this issue. I believe that Shanahan is to be credited for the success of the system, but with that said, Denver created a system that is meant for a certain type of back. Davis was that back, and he was brilliant. There are those two factors in play when considering Davis. You cant argue with the numbers.

Either one or both of those guys deserve to be in the hall. If Davis was pedestrian, then Shanny is the greatest offensive mind in NFL history. The media wouldnt dare agree to that idea, so lets toss that. If Shanny is just an above average coach, and TD was just above average, then do you get a 2000 yard season? Obviously not. How many backs have rushed for over 2000 yards? That is a very significant feat. How many pedestrian backs have had that kind of unparalleled success over that long of a time period? None. So Davis was not a ***e. Something great happened, but what? Was it Elway? Was it Sharpe? Was it Davis? Davis won the NFL MVP that season. That says alot for the type of year he had.

Interesting debate. I personally think that Davis was a solid player regardless of the system. He hit the hole hard and could punish second level defenders with his power. His vision was great (not good, but great).

I also think that Shanny is the greatest offensive mind in NFL history. Those two factors combined = one of the best teams in history, a rushing title, an MVP trophy, back-to-back superbowl victories, a SB MVP, and a prolific rushing attack.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Whoa there.

Half this board, myself included, thought we'd go 8-8.

Even wabbit, who spends a lot of time around the team, thought that.

This isn't a magical season, but let's face it, nobody knew what the Browns were capable of, and nobody knew our rookies would play this well this soon. And after last year's 20 INT season, nobody knew Jake would play this great.

I mean, everybody likes to crack back on the media, but people here had those same questions about the Browns, people here thought Shanny had lost his mind drafting 3 CBs, etc.

The media doesn't hate us, or anything. There were legitimate questions surrounding the Broncos in the off-season, and the analysts had to ask those tough questions.

I saw 10-6 and one or two games plus or minus on the rest of the AFC West.

I thought that the D-line was the best group I had seen here since Neil, Alfred, Tanuvasa, and co. I also liked the depth at every position defensively and the 3rd season possibilities of Plummer. The O-Line worried
me and so did the WR's, but I thought that the D would be solid enough to give the running game opportunities to wear down the opposing defense.

[Gort]

i'm a U of MD grad, so i knew about Foxworth :)

i looked at this team in pre-season and picked an 11-5 finish. i thought if they could sweep NE and PHI, they'd go 12-4. didn't count on losses to MIA and NYG though. if they can make up for one of those losses with a win @KC or @SD, i still think 12-4 is possible.

[Gcver2ver3]

I agree that TD is losing HOF votes because of our system and the success of other lesser known backs in it...but TD was indeed special and it isn't just about stats for HOF inductions..it is about the impact players made on their team and the league...Sayers revolutionized the game in a short period...no one ever saw anything like him..his stats in a snapshot are unspectacular for career numbers but he was special...same with the 70's Steeler WR's..their stats suck...but their impact was huge...

Same with TD..only six years but he broke 2000 yds..broke postseason record for 100 games...won NFL MVP...won SB MVP...led Denver to 1st SB win and ended the NFC streak...had best 2 year and 3 year (and maybe 4 year) stretch for any RB in NFL history...and I could go on...

The other backs we've had are pretty good too....Droughns is on pace for 1200 yards...no Cleveland back has broke 1000yds for them since 1985....and if you don't think Droughns is good then go on Browns message boards...I have and let me tell you...they think he is a star...they act like he's Priest Holmes or something

[KillerBronco#76]

i remeber i couple years back there was one of those nfl player polls that asked. Who was the most punishing/hardest running to take down they have played against. TD got #1 ahead of jamal lewis.

I think it might have been rod woodson who said he was knocked out trying to tackle TD in a game.

[Kaylore]

I've always said that the system will get you 1,000 yards and whatever extra is credited to the back.

Despite what people think, the backs we use are good. Look at Kyle Johnson. He's another castoff and is one of our best red zone threats. He has good hands and can make guys miss in space. Now is that "the system?". We have a good eye for running back talent and great coaches.

I think Portis is used wrong and Droughns plays for the Browns. They don't have the success that they had here, but they're good backs.

[ZachKC]

Best username in OM or any message board's history.

[Rock Chalk]

1000 yards is what, 65 yards a game?

He's not a bad back by any means, he has a place starting in the NFL for sure... But he's not TD, he's not Portis, or LT, or Alexander, etc. I'd say he's decent/good, but not a great back.
Droughns is on pace to have near 1400 yards. Thats a great season for a RB.

[yavoon]

I can live with the whole "anyone can run in Denver" because it shows that we have a superior system that other NFL teams haven't been able to copy.

what bothers me to no end though is the fact that everyone in the media loves to say "Denver is a big surprise this year" and "we had them at 6-10 so they have really surprised this season."

Why is it so freakin' hard to believe that a 10-6 team the past 2 seasons with stupid letdowns can't be 7-2 and finally playing up to its potential?! Just because we signed the whole Cleveland Browns line? Last time I checked, those guys had all the talent in the world and maybe just maybe they needed to go to a winning organization to truly show their skills.

Nah... the media would have you believe that this is a one time magical season. Un-freakin-believable. ::)

its not that they're unable, its that they dont. no1 wants to go down to the smaller quicker lineman. the broncos are like the steelers of the 90's running their 3-4. I know atlanta took alex gibbs and had a good running game in about a year. I'm sure there are other ppl u could get from other places to teach the cut blocking scheme.

[RaiderH8r]

Good post.

I have had the same problem with this issue. I believe that Shanahan is to be credited for the success of the system, but with that said, Denver created a system that is meant for a certain type of back. Davis was that back, and he was brilliant. There are those two factors in play when considering Davis. You cant argue with the numbers.

Either one or both of those guys deserve to be in the hall. If Davis was pedestrian, then Shanny is the greatest offensive mind in NFL history. The media wouldnt dare agree to that idea, so lets toss that. If Shanny is just an above average coach, and TD was just above average, then do you get a 2000 yard season? Obviously not. How many backs have rushed for over 2000 yards? That is a very significant feat. How many pedestrian backs have had that kind of unparalleled success over that long of a time period? None. So Davis was not a ***e. Something great happened, but what? Was it Elway? Was it Sharpe? Was it Davis? Davis won the NFL MVP that season. That says alot for the type of year he had.

Interesting debate. I personally think that Davis was a solid player regardless of the system. He hit the hole hard and could punish second level defenders with his power. His vision was great (not good, but great).

I also think that Shanny is the greatest offensive mind in NFL history. Those two factors combined = one of the best teams in history, a rushing title, an MVP trophy, back-to-back superbowl victories, a SB MVP, and a prolific rushing attack.
If you go beyond TDs stats his running style was as punishing and beautiful as any back to lace'em up. Any given game, roughly 10 Million people knew he was going to get the ball and get it often. Teams teed off on him. I don't think you can truly appreciate just how hard he ran and how hard the collisions were unless you saw him play. Every time I saw him play I was absolutely stunned at the collisions he made, it sounded like a shotgun going off. He was as punishing a back as Jim Brown. He would get hit two yards deep and drag people for a gain. And just when a LB or SS thought he was going to put his head down and bring the pain train, he'd slip that spin move (and how quick was that move? WOW) or juke and he was gone. Also, great guy and great ambassador for the game, all class all the time.

[DarkHorse30]

TD will get in....but probably not until a bunch of nutjob voters like Dr. Zzzz retire or die.

Denver fans should dismiss the HOF as it is, for a decade or so. They won't figure out how good Denver players are/were for at least another 10 years.

[Paladin]

I have to ask this question: "What system would that be?"

System? The only "systemic" thing going is the cutback blocking that every team uses to some degree or another. One cut and go is not exactly a "system", either, so exactly what system are you talking about?

If there is a "system" to running the ball, I'd say Pitt has more of that than the Broncos do because they just haul off and smack people in the mouths and move the piles and then sneak through a hole now and again.

The answer to the Denver running game riddle is: Bobby Turner. He gets the RBs to do the one cut and go, and that is contrary to much of the experience most RBs have in college. He trains guys with good vision.

The "system" is not a "system" because the RBs are actually very different from each other. (MS and Bell wil not be misidentified by anyone, I don't think; they run differently.) They cut once and run. MA is a bruiser, Bell speeds and fineses. Different, see what I mean? So, the "System" is not a system.

It is too bad that we have to suffer the parroting sports analysts. Maybe there is a system as to how they reproduce each other?