Denver-Area Residents Will Pay $188 Billion Over 25 Years To Live In Sprawl

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Anyone living in a giant, unchecked growth metro area can see it happening before their eyes. Looks like Denver has made another top 10 list.

--------------------------------------------------------------
The Denver Business Journal - 12:38 PM MST Monday
Denver among worst offenders for sprawl

Denver ranks among the top sprawling economic areas, according to a book published Monday.

The book, "Sprawl Costs: Economic Impacts of Unchecked Development," argues Americans are paying $84 million a day, or $31 billion annually, to live in sprawling communities. The book was written by Robert Burchell, co-director of the Center for Urban Policy Research at Rutgers University; Anthony Downs, senior fellow at the Brookings Institution; Barbara McCann, a transportation and land use policy writer; and Sahan Mukherji, research associate at the Center for Urban Policy Research.

The cost of sprawl comes in the form of higher expenses to drive everywhere, additional water and sewer hookups as more homes are built, and more funds needed to build additional roads.

The authors predicted the cost of low-density development, which they considered sprawl, from now to 2025.

Denver ranked No. 10 on the list of sprawling economic areas, which is defined as a metropolitan area plus its rural counties. Leading the list were: Los Angeles, Washington/Baltimore, San Francisco Bay Area, New York City, Dallas-Fort Worth, Atlanta, Boston and Miami/Fort Lauderdale.

The authors say Denver-area residents will pay $188 billion over 25 years to live in sprawling communities, or $49,767 a person. They argue that if just 25 percent of low-density growth is shifted to compact growth, the savings would be $21 billion, or $5,570 a person.

"It seems so much simpler to buy farmland at the edge and build a familiar housing subdivision," Burchell said, "but in the long run, this is a more costly strategy for everyone."
http://tinyurl.com/bdcto

[Rascal]

Just out of plain ignorance....how is this more costly?

Americans like their space and their cars....chaulk it up to freedom. It's not going to change.

[ak1971]

here it comes....its Bush's fault

[W*GS]

What's the expected economic output of the Denver metro area over that same period? That $188 billion sounds suspiciously exact, and no doubt derived from many subjective guesses.

Typical urban planner/social engineer types. Remember when, in the 60s, they decided that there were "too many" cheap hotels in downtown areas, and that those areas needed "renewal" to attract surburbanites back downtown? So the hotels were torn down, and lo and behold, we have bums begging on the streets instead, outside shiny office towers and 4-star hotels.

I don't much listen to the rants of social engineers - they think they know best, but they often do not.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Americans like their space and their cars....chaulk it up to freedom. It's not going to change.

So you don't think it will change even when gas hits $4 per gallon?

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

here it comes....its Bush's fault

You keep getting your own message wrong.

It should read "nothing is Bush's fault."

[ak1971]

only washed up bands from 'LA'

[Meck77]

Too bad the article doesn't mention that 75% of this freakin state lives in a little strip of land that runs along the I-25 corridor to the base of the mountain range. Yeah it's sprawl....It's called we all live in the foothills while the rest of the state is virtually empty.

Slugs just a bitter former Denver resident who moved for whatever reason. I've read it time and time again in his posts. Hey it's understandable. Denver has grown from what he is use to in the 70's. To me it's heaven on earth still. It's still has that small town feel to me.

I agree about sprawl to a point. There is smart growth and sprawl. Aurora for example is gobbling up farmland. However the water tap fees they charge per house and the fees associated for that house far outweigh the impact of that single family home. I could write a novel on this one issue alone.

I'm just going to leave it at that for now.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

only washed up bands from 'LA'

???

Oh, that's right - somehow you concluded I was in a band.

:alky:

[Meck77]

how bout them Broncos LA?

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

how bout them Broncos LA?

They....could....go....all....the....way.....

But did you forget this was the War, Religion, and Politics part of the forum?

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Too bad the article doesn't mention that 75% of this freakin state lives in a little strip of land that runs along the I-25 corridor to the base of the mountain range. Yeah it's sprawl....It's called we all live in the foothills while the rest of the state is virtually empty.

Slugs just a bitter former Denver resident who moved for whatever reason. I've read it time and time again in his posts. Hey it's understandable. Denver has grown from what he is use to in the 70's. To me it's heaven on earth still. It's still has that small town feel to me.

I agree about sprawl to a point. There is smart growth and sprawl. Aurora for example is gobbling up farmland. However the water tap fees they charge per house and the fees associated for that house far outweigh the impact of that single family home. I could write a novel on this one issue alone.

I'm just going to leave it at that for now.

I'm a happy Colorado and TX resident (not "bitter" at all). Just because you don't like hearing negative articles on how conjested and dirty the Denver area is, doesn't mean it isn't so.

And if you think Denver has a "small town feel" you're living in a dreamworld.

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

Slug - you can find all sorts of articles like this about every location. Business 2.0 had one a couple of weeks ago that said your area was going to be one big megalopolis from Brownesville, thru Houston to NO and Birmingham. Another would stretch from San Antonio through DFW to KC and St Louis. Denver was not even mentioned.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Slug - you can find all sorts of articles like this about every location. Business 2.0 had one a couple of weeks ago that said your area was going to be one big megalopolis from Brownesville, thru Houston to NO and Birmingham. Another would stretch from San Antonio through DFW to KC and St Louis. Denver was not even mentioned.

No worries about that happening here (not in the next century or 2 anyway).
The I-35 corridor is where the growth is. With home prices under $100 grand for new 3 bdr, 2 car bricks from Waco through SA, it's growing almost as fast the Denver megalopolis.

[alkemical]

I live in the megalopolis on the east coast being in PA's capital. I got philly, dc, NYC, Boston all right within 8hrs or less - and spraw is huge - thank goodness for amtrak.

[bendog]

I'd really like to live in Den IF I had the house where I grew up prior to my folks moving to the burbs. Noway would I commute in either from Jeff Co or from where we moved to around Arapahoe Rd and I-25

[Meck77]

And if you think Denver has a "small town feel" you're living in a dreamworld.


It's all relative man. After driving the bus from Denver to NY and back my perspective has changed. Infact when we were heading back and saw the lights of Indy it felt close to home. It really did.

Maybe I am living in a dream world but I spent over 18 years living away from Denver and dreamt about living back home alot. I love it here and you enjoy whatever part of Texas your are in. To each his own.

If you don't like Denver now Slug then you definetly won't like it 20 years from now. This place is going to explode and real estate prices are going to soar. We've been flat for several years now but I feel the change coming. People will only move so far east. Heck not uncommon for people to knock down decent properties intown to build their dream home. It's basic supply and demand. Sure people will continue to move out to the sticks but there are always developers/buyers for close intown property. Infact the majority of City Council members in the Denver Metro area support just about any urban renewal/infill developement.

All is well in Denver folks and it's only getting better with the light rail expansion, t-rex project, water conservation plans, etc.

I'm an optimist Slug and from the majority of your posts I pin you down as a pessimist. It's these different types of mentalities in the world that balance one another out.

[bendog]

I dunno. I know a guy who commutes from Highlands to around S. Colo Blvd from about Evans up to N. Colo Blvd near the hospitals. No thanks. I'd rather I ended up in Knoxville or Madison Wi or some college town like that, but I like my 5 min commute to the office and gym. But that's just me.

Now IF I lived around Colo Blvd and Ellsworth And only had to commute to downtown ... yeah, Den could still have a hometown feel. But when I was a kid you didn't even miss having AC with humidity in the 10's during the summer. Feels more like Ohio to me nowadays in the summer. Sucks.

[alkemical]

I'm a native CO'ian - i do miss summers in CO vs. PA - although seattle summers are nice....

[Meck77]

I hear you dog. I don't commute either as I work from home. Hell I don't like driving much at all.

However if you look at every major residential development in the front range for the most part ALL the developers are gearing them towards a work, live, play development. Or they position there development to all the amenties to where people don't have to drive 30 minutes to work or get groceries.

You'll have a few thousands homes, anchored with a few big box stores, office, retail, open space and they are usually connected with bike paths, old town shopping district etc.

It is the trend. The builders recognized this more than a decade ago. I know people who live on these areas that barely even use a car anymore. Ofcourse there are exceptions to the rule but the THIS IS WHAT IS GOING ON regardless of how Slug paints the picture.

[alkemical]

Why don't people use MT much?

I use the train to go anywhere on the E. Coast near PA - Hell i took teh train to seattle & back....

I get riducled for using the bus.....

Honestly, people are just lazy.....

Now i do drive 45min to work, but this job opened up, but if it turns out to be a long term gig, i'm moving down towards where i work -

but the whole work/play/live thing - it's all been done in cities anyway - HBG, PA has been pushing that for years.

[Meck77]

but the whole work/play/live thing - it's all been done in cities anyway - HBG, PA has been pushing that for years.

I'm not saying it's new ames but there was a time in the front range that somebody would scrape some farmland and plop a couple thousand homes on it without any consideration of where these people would shop etc. This was during the major boom of the 90's when supply was tight.

With the downturn in the local economy here developers have to be more aware of their competition now. There is alot of new construction inventory out there and the old saying of location...location is still holds true. The builders tolerance for land speculation (cheap land) is pretty tight now and they are willing to pay a premium for intown land or land with Mixed use development potential to stay competitive.

Simply put the I-25 corridor didn't have the traffice volume it does now compared to 10-15 years ago. People aren't willing to make those long commutes and sit in traffic if they don't have to. With the addition of the E-470 beltway (ahead of it's time I might add) this has opened up thousands of acres of land to development which could basically be considered infill land thus helping to curb the "sprawl".

Contrary to Slugs "dooms day" Denver scenario the future is bright here and I do know a little on this subject. I do a little more around town than just cook brats in parking lots.

[alkemical]

I see the negative of sprawl and the work/shop/play idea - around here - it's pushing out productive farmland for cookie cut homes and more walmarts - i feel that most people will be 'directed' to spend their money at x places that will be close limiting choice, of course it would be your choice to live there - but you know what i mean -

e470 should be nice - i used to live in pueblo -

[bendog]

Meck and Ames, one thing from Beerslugs' link

Los Angeles, Washington/Baltimore, San Francisco Bay Area, New York City, Dallas-Fort Worth, Atlanta, Boston and Miami/Fort Lauderdale

imo, wash/balt, SF, NYC are all very liveable simply because all have MT. Even here in this faulknerian hamlett + third world, I'm seeing new developments that seek to put work/play in the same general development as residential. How that plays out, I dunno. I do agree with Beerslug however that any poor bastard who has to commute in the denver metro area is suckign his life away. Mountains or no mountains.

[Rascal]

I do a little more around town than just cook brats in parking lots.

Your priorities need to be fixed LOL!!!

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Why don't people use MT much?

I use the train to go anywhere on the E. Coast near PA - Hell i took teh train to seattle & back....

I get riducled for using the bus.....

Honestly, people are just lazy.....

Now i do drive 45min to work, but this job opened up, but if it turns out to be a long term gig, i'm moving down towards where i work -

but the whole work/play/live thing - it's all been done in cities anyway - HBG, PA has been pushing that for years.
If you think people don't want to use MT in the East you haven't seen anything. Despite Meck's bright outlook on Front Range MT, it won't happen. People in the West demand freedom and their cars give that to them. Not many people want to be boxed up in small areas if they don't have to be. This is why the Denver area will continue to rank so high in sprawl as the original article stated. It will only get worse traffic, crowding and air quality wise.

Water is and will be a huge problem for the Denver area also.

[Meck77]

Meck and Ames, one thing from Beerslugs' link

Los Angeles, Washington/Baltimore, San Francisco Bay Area, New York City, Dallas-Fort Worth, Atlanta, Boston and Miami/Fort Lauderdale

imo, wash/balt, SF, NYC are all very liveable simply because all have MT. Even here in this faulknerian hamlett + third world, I'm seeing new developments that seek to put work/play in the same general development as residential. How that plays out, I dunno. I do agree with Beerslug however that any poor bastard who has to commute in the denver metro area is suckign his life away. Mountains or no mountains.

We have a massive MT project underway. http://www.trexproject.com/

Won't be long before you can hit a light rail from many areas of the Denver Metro area.

[alkemical]

But the question is will people USE the MT options - we have trains, buses right here in HBG, PA that connects HBG with philly, NYC, DC, Balt and people don't want to use the train. Hell the bus to go from where i live to downtown HBG is only 10min longer at MOST - and people won't take the bus -

I like to take the bus on the weekends downtown, so i don't have to drive after drinking.

I can take the bus to HIA though - which is nice.

[Meck77]

Water is and will be a huge problem for the Denver area also.

Well if it stops snowing in the mountains most of the western states will be in trouble. Every metro area city council has approved water restrictions over the last several years. You know this Slug. It was too the point that we in Aurora were only allowed to water our yards twice a week. They have eased restrictions lately. The problem is not the Denver water usage but more the down steam usage. The idiots in AZ for example haven't been doing this at all! These people use our Colorado water via the central az water project and try to keep their lawns green in 115 degree weather.

The ONLY reason colorado has to be aware of their water level usage is because of the water deal that was made many decades ago. A group of idiots got together along the colorado river and tried to estimate how much water was flowing thru the river. They severely under estimated it and Colorado gave up more water rights to the states down stream than they should have. With that being said Colorado has enough water even under the drought conditions we've lived with for the last several years.

Infact water tap fees are so high for residential devolpment now that 1 single tap fee to a builder in aurora tops $15,000. This money is piling into the city funds to improve the water infrastructure and fund other projects to conserve water and explore other sources. That 15k to the cities budget results in a lot more water for other projects than the actual use of that 1 single family home. I spent over a year working on this issue with the City of Aurora and have attended dozens of meeting on the very subject of Colorado Water.

Slug did you know that 95% of the metro area water allocated to the cities is used by farmers and not residential/commercial use?

These are the same farmers that are paid not to farm via subsidies from the federal gov. I know because I am one of them.

A mere couple % of the farmers water allocation is enough to sustain the front range for decades. With the expansion of resevoirs in the mountains (already underway) everything will be fine as long as mother nature doesn't completely stop snowing on Colorado. I don't see that happening.

I could go into further details if you want me too slug. No disrespect to you man but I think you are throwing out these one line statements without having all the facts.

Bottom line. If there is a major drought I'm talking no snow conditions for a couple years the people on the western slope are going to feel the pinch before we do on the Eastern slope.

Remember one thing about real estate. He who controls the land controls the deal. The people in AZ/CA don't control the land in colorado or the water for that matter. They may have their water right claims but when push comes to shove that water is going to stay in Colorado when the lawsuits settle. I just wish the states down stream were taking the steps Colorado is doing now to prepare for it if the climate really changes.

click around here slug if you want some info about water in Aurora (one of the biggest cities in the front range) http://www.auroragov.org/AuroraGov/Departments/Utilities/Water_Supply_Projects/index.htm

You'll find similar information from every other metro area city as they all have individual plans for their water.

[RaiderH8r]

But the question is will people USE the MT options - we have trains, buses right here in HBG, PA that connects HBG with philly, NYC, DC, Balt and people don't want to use the train. Hell the bus to go from where i live to downtown HBG is only 10min longer at MOST - and people won't take the bus -

I like to take the bus on the weekends downtown, so i don't have to drive after drinking.

I can take the bus to HIA though - which is nice.
Metro rail sucks. I hate being in the tubes with the trolls and trogs. It's a##holes and elbows in there, full contact. The summer is the worst, a thousand degrees, ten thousand stinking tourists who have been trodding around through the 98 degree heat and 85% humidity all day long, moronic tourists congregating at the doors cramping the whole works while there's tons of room in the middle of the car, then they gawk at the tunnel walls when they get off (all the while standing in front of the doors obstructing your egress) IT'S A FVCKING WALL YOU MORONS!!! Rail running late/delayed, fare hikes, crappy service, piss poor communication etc...and that's DC. NY is much worse. I loathe metro. But to each their own, I prefer sitting in traffic with my own personal space and my own tunes on the radio.

[W*GS]

People in the West demand freedom and their cars give that to them. Not many people want to be boxed up in small areas if they don't have to be. This is why the Denver area will continue to rank so high in sprawl as the original article stated. It will only get worse traffic, crowding and air quality wise.

Perhaps, perhaps not.

See http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=5115129

Water is and will be a huge problem for the Denver area also.

Only because the folks downstream are so profligate in their use of our water.

[alkemical]

Funny i took amtrak to mass from HBG pa - i was fine, had my own seat, had my own outlet to plug my personal devices into, got to drink on the train, didn't have any layovers except the day that the london bombings happened -

besides, then i don't have to pay for gas, don't have to pay for parking - don't have to worry about dip**** drivers that can't drive on the highway or sitting for HOURS in traffic because one of the above mentioned drivers wrecked his vehicle while jabbering on his/her cellphone....

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Well if it stops snowing in the mountains most of the western states will be in trouble. Every metro area city council has approved water restrictions over the last several years. You know this Slug. It was too the point that we in Aurora were only allowed to water our yards twice a week. They have eased restrictions lately. The problem is not the Denver water usage but more the down steam usage. The idiots in AZ for example haven't been doing this at all! These people use our Colorado water via the central az water project and try to keep their lawns green in 115 degree weather.

The ONLY reason colorado has to be aware of their water level usage is because of the water deal that was made many decades ago. A group of idiots got together along the colorado river and tried to estimate how much water was flowing thru the river. They severely under estimated it and Colorado gave up more water rights to the states down stream than they should have. With that being said Colorado has enough water even under the drought conditions we've lived with for the last several years.
.
Yep, water rights have the Denver area hamstrung to a certain degree. Douglas county is in the worst shape. Over building on water projections that aren't there.

My relatives that are all farmers on my dad's side, live from near Hudson throughout various areas to Greeley. Water has become more valuable than their natural gas leases.