Montana vs Elway

[WaffleBoy]

on ESPN.

The Boy Wonder :super:

[Sir Mawn]

for us that have the international version of ESPN, what's it about?

[Sir Mawn]

quite enlightening...

[NaptownChief]

They must be bored and desperate for material to re-hash a topic that is so obvious and doesn't even warrant debate.


4 rings > 2 rings to the tune of twice as good.



Like debating who is faster, Tory Holt or Fridge Perry.

[Rock Chalk]

16 probowlers > 0 probowlers.

Therefore Montana < Elway.

[jonny1]

They must be bored and desperate for material to re-hash a topic that is so obvious and doesn't even warrant debate.


4 rings > 2 rings to the tune of twice as good.

So Trent Dilfer is a better QB than Marino was? :poke:

[NaptownChief]

So Trent Dilfer is a better QB than Marino was? :poke:



Would be if he validated the first one with multiple rings.

[Meck77]

They must be bored and desperate for material to re-hash a topic that is so obvious and doesn't even warrant debate.


4 rings > 2 rings to the tune of twice as good.



Like debating who is faster, Tory Holt or Fridge Perry.

Broncos 6 Superbowl appearances > Chiefs 1

It's sad really. No need to discuss things any further.:Broncos: What the hell have the Chiefs been doing the last 30+years?

[NaptownChief]

Broncos 6 Superbowl appearances > Chiefs 1

No need to discuss things any further.:Broncos:



See boys...Meck understands how it works......BTW was it tough putting the word "appearances" in there?


1st rate teams talk about victories

2nd rate teams talk about appearances

3rd rate teams just keep quiet

[Dukes]

1st rate teams talk about victories

2nd rate teams talk about appearances

3rd rate teams just keep quiet

Look at what you just wrote. Keyword being "teams". Montana was on great teams. Elway WAS the team. End of discussion

[jonny1]

Would be if he validated the first one with multiple rings. ROFL! ROFL! ROFL!

[NaptownChief]

Look at what you just wrote. Keyword being "teams". Montana was on great teams. Elway WAS the team. End of discussion



Probably because Montana was an unselfish team player who made the players around him better. Maybe Elway should have tried that instead of being "the team".

Like you said, end of discussion.

[Elway 4 Life]

Broncos 6 Superbowl appearances > Chiefs 1

It's sad really. No need to discuss things any further.:Broncos: What the hell have the Chiefs been doing the last 30+years?

Joe Montana shouldnt even be mentioned in the same sentence as Elway. If Elway were on those San Fran teams he would have won at least 8 or 9 superbowls. It's just unfortunate that Elway didnt get much help until the end of his career. I just hate comparing a good QB (montana) with a great QB (ELWAY) and then having some dumbass chucklehead saying montana one 4 superbowls, he's the best. Troy Aikman won a bunch of superbowls but I would never consider him one of the all time greats. Joe montana is over f****** rated.

[Dukes]

Probably because Montana was an unselfish team player who made the players around him better. Maybe Elway should have tried that instead of being "the team".

Like you said, end of discussion.

Wow, just wow

[NaptownChief]

Joe Montana shouldnt even be mentioned in the same sentence as Elway. If Elway were on those San Fran teams he would have..........



You are correct he should not be in the same breath because he was so much better. Let me properly finish that last sentence for you:


he would have looked like Jake Plummer cause he wasn't smart enough to run the WCO properly.

Guys, there is no shame in having the 2nd best QB of all time be a Bronco....That will move down to 3rd of all time when Peyton gets done but still no shame in 3rd.

[enjolras]

They must be bored and desperate for material to re-hash a topic that is so obvious and doesn't even warrant debate.


4 rings > 2 rings to the tune of twice as good.



Like debating who is faster, Tory Holt or Fridge Perry.

Only in Tennis.. last I checked a team consisted of a bit more than a Quarterback.

[Meck77]

See boys...Meck understands how it works......BTW was it tough putting the word "appearances" in there?


1st rate teams talk about victories

2nd rate teams talk about appearances

3rd rate teams just keep quiet


Well then just keep quiet.

Broncos 2 superbowl VICTORIES > Chiefs ZERO

[NaptownChief]

Only in Tennis.. last I checked a team consisted of a bit more than a Quarterback.



According to O&B4Life that isn't true as Elway was the entire team.

[NaptownChief]

Well then just keep quiet.

Broncos 2 superbowl VICTORIES > Chiefs ZERO



Do your homework Meck....You are smarter than that.

[Meck77]

Oh that's right. Before you were probably born you got one. I stand corrected. I'm not a chiefs expert like you. Hell you probably know more about the Broncos than alot of Broncos fans. Why is that? You might just be a Broncos fan aren't ya?

Broncos 2 > Chumps 1

The end

[epicSocialism4tw]

John Elway. Hands down.

[Dukes]

According to O&B4Life that isn't true as Elway was the entire team.
Elways was the whole team because he didnt have a supporting cast. Not because he was a selfish player who just wanted to do everything himself. Way to take everything out of context to fulfill your hatred of Elway. Dumb@ss

[NaptownChief]

Elways was the whole team because he didnt have a supporting cast. Not because he was a selfish player who just wanted to do everything himself. Way to take everything out of context to fulfill your hatred of Elway. Dumb@ss


Great players make those around them much better....If you are saying all the players around him sucked then clearly he didn't do that.

[Dukes]

Great players make those around them much better....If you are saying all the players around him sucked then clearly he didn't do that.

So your telling me that Montana made Ronnie Lott better on Defense?

[NaptownChief]

So your telling me that Montana made Ronnie Lott better on Defense?



Yep....controlled the clock and kept him fresh. That is what good QB's do.

[Rock Chalk]

Probably because Montana was an unselfish team player who made the players around him better. Maybe Elway should have tried that instead of being "the team".

Like you said, end of discussion.
Dumbest ****ing post ever.

[Crowpointer]

You are correct he should not be in the same breath because he was so much better. Let me properly finish that last sentence for you:


he would have looked like Jake Plummer cause he wasn't smart enough to run the WCO properly.

Guys, there is no shame in having the 2nd best QB of all time be a Bronco....That will move down to 3rd of all time when Peyton gets done but still no shame in 3rd.
Elway versus Montana....They are both awesome . But how do you put a guy with no rings (Manning) in the same sentence ? Because he finally won in Foxboro on Monday night ? Let Peyton win some rings before you but him in the same sentence as two of the all time greats.

[epicSocialism4tw]

There are system QB's (which Montana undoubtedly was) and athletes. John Elway was an athlete. Elway was an athlete that dominated games. It's like comparing A Favre/Vick hybrid with Tom Brady. It's difficult to choose who you whould rather have.

One thing is certain though. Take Brady's team from around him and his team looks pretty ordinary (as we are seeing this season). Take Elway's team from around him and you probably see things happen like the Oilers playoff game, the Drive, and the defining plays of the 80's and 90's.

[NaptownChief]

Elway versus Montana....They are both awesome . But how do you put a guy with no rings (Manning) in the same sentence ? Because he finally won in Foxboro on Monday night ? Let Peyton win some rings before you but him in the same sentence as two of the all time greats.



He has as many rings as Elway had at this point in his career and does everything much better except eat hard corn off the cob.

[epicSocialism4tw]

He has as many rings as Elway had at this point in his career and does everything much better except eat hard corn off the cob.


Elway was definately the better player. I really dont see Montana as much better than Troy Aikman. They both essentially had the same career.

I tell you one thing though, if Elway played in New York or SF there would be no debate. Elway didnt get the hype that Montana got.

[epicSocialism4tw]

He has as many rings as Elway had at this point in his career and does everything much better except eat hard corn off the cob.

He sure doesnt have the playoff success!

[Crowpointer]

There are system QB's (which Montana undoubtedly was) and athletes. John Elway was an athlete. Elway was an athlete that dominated games. It's like comparing A Favre/Vick hybrid with Tom Brady. It's difficult to choose who you whould rather have.

One thing is certain though. Take Brady's team from around him and his team looks pretty ordinary (as we are seeing this season). Take Elway's team from around him and you probably see things happen like the Oilers playoff game, the Drive, and the defining plays of the 80's and 90's.
Actually Brady is having statistically one of his best years ever in terms of stats and passed the 20 mark for fourth qtr comebacks this year at only 28 years old. Elway I believe finished at 47

[NaptownChief]

You boys figured out that you are just being jerked with yet? Bashing Elway on a Donkey board is like bashing Jesus on a Baptist board. :~ohyah!:


Elway was the man....but he is still second in line behind Montana by a smidge.

[Dukes]

Yep....controlled the clock and kept him fresh. That is what good QB's do.

I guess Montana gave him tips on tackling and wrapping guys up to right?

[Play2win]

Elway wasn't just a Great QB (the BEST!!), he was a GREAT FOOTBALL PLAYER.

Elway did more with 2 downs than almost any other QB could do with 3 downs. Thanks to a certain mr. reeves...


To revisit my cheer for so many years...


ELWAY, ALL THE WAY !!!!!!

:militia: !Booya! :militia: !Booya! :militia: :militia: !Booya! :militia: !Booya! :militia:

[Elway 4 Life]

Great players make those around them much better....If you are saying all the players around him sucked then clearly he didn't do that.

HE MADE ALL THOSE PLAYERS AROUND HIM SO MUCH BETTER AND GOT TO 3 SUPERBOWLS BECAUSE OF THIS FACT. MONTANA HAD AT LEAST 5 OR 6 HOF PLAYERS ON THOSE TEAMS IN SAN FRAN. JOHN HAD NONE. JOHN HAS BETTER STATS THAN MONTANA, A BETTER ARM. HE WAS JUST BETTER.

[Gcver2ver3]

Long time debate...here is the truth

If you go strictly by championships then you go with Montana/Bradshaw

If you go just by stats than you go Marino...

If you go by stas AND winning then you go with Elway....

John Elway has huge all-time stats AND Super Bowl championships...

Elway has started in a record 5 Super Bowls

He has won MVP of Super Bowl & of NFL...

He is the greatest comeback QB ever...even by the numbers

He is the all time winningest QB of all time...Favre is second

Plus as mentioned earlier...Elway has taken bad teams to Super Bowls..no one else has ever done that...when he finally got talent he won back to back Super Bowls

It is clear Elway rules supreme...

[Play2win]

It is clear Elway rules supreme...
Quoted for ABSOLUTE TRUTH!!

[NaptownChief]

There is never any doubt as to who makes the best automoblies at a BMW salesman convention...Ironically no question at the Mercedes convention either.

[broncosteven]

Broncos 6 Superbowl appearances > Chiefs 1

It's sad really. No need to discuss things any further.:Broncos: What the hell have the Chiefs been doing the last 30+years?


AFREAKINGMEN

REP!

[24champ]

If Montana was so great how come he didnt bring a title to KC?

[broncosteven]

There is never any doubt as to who makes the best automoblies at a BMW salesman convention...Ironically no question at the Mercedes convention either.


I love my 2002 BMW 325i It is the Ultimate Driving experience. KFC Sucks! Broncos Rule. I will never by a Mercedes or a Camaro.

Elway & Unitas Greatest QB's ever with Star also in consideration everyone else is holding their jocks.

[Dukes]

If Montana was so great how come he didnt bring a title to KC?

Hilarious! Rep!

[enjolras]

Great players make those around them much better....If you are saying all the players around him sucked then clearly he didn't do that.

I think thats the whole damn point. Montana was made great by his clearly superior supporting cast.

Elway took his teammates to a whole different place then they really deserved to be. Elway ELEVATED the play of his teammates more than any other QB in NFL history.. period.

[Northman]

See boys...Meck understands how it works......BTW was it tough putting the word "appearances" in there?


1st rate teams talk about victories

2nd rate teams talk about appearances

3rd rate teams just keep quiet


How come you dont stay quiet then?

[maven]

Greatest Bronco: John Elway>Greatest Chief: Jan Stenerud

[NaptownChief]

Greatest Bronco: John Elway>Greatest Chief: Jan Stenerud



Elway was greater than Stenerud...that much is correct but here is the part you forgot:


John Elway(Donkey)<Joe Montana(Chief)

[Willynowei]

He has as many rings as Elway had at this point in his career and does everything much better except eat hard corn off the cob.


This statement can be disproven very quickly.

1.) Take a look at the Colt's winning percentage when Peyton Manning has been injured and out in his career.

2.) Take a look at the Colt's winning percentage when Edgerin James has been injured and out in his career.

3.) Once you have realized the huge disparaty, you see that Peyton's cerebral play comes as much from the play action as Jake Plummer's bootleg. Then you suddenly realize that James won't return next year. OMG the Colts run is over!

[Elway 4 Life]

Elway was greater than Stenerud...that much is correct but here is the part you forgot:


John Elway(Donkey)<Joe Montana(Chief)


NaptownChief (Jackass)

[enjolras]

There is never any doubt as to who makes the best automoblies at a BMW salesman convention...Ironically no question at the Mercedes convention either.

So I assume if I visit chefs planet these days I'll find that Trint is the best QB of all time?

Man.. KC really is pathetic.

[Chimporilla]

The difference to me is how well each guy performed in the Big Game. Both were great and arguments could be made for both guys. At this point, it just depends on who you like better. Therefore, I don't really hold a grudge against Bronco fans for thinking Elway was the better qb.

However, I think I need to remind some what the final score was in the Superbowl they played against each other. It was the largest margin of victory ever recorded in a Superbowl, and Elway's team didn't come out on top. 55-10.

Montana also led the most dramatic drive in championship history against the Bengals. "The Drive" was excellent, no doubt. But it wasn't for a world Championship.

Who came up bigger in the big games? Montana did hands down. Against Washington, San Fran, and the Giants, Elway got shut down and the Broncos lost all three. Montana never got shut down to the point of being rendered ineffective and was always key to his teams success in the Superbowls.

When you get two caliber of qb's like we're talking about, it has to come down to championships. No one would bother to argue that Marino or Kelly was better than Elway; at least I hope no one would. Therefore, in this conversation, championships have to be the deciding factor.

[Northman]

The difference to me is how well each guy performed in the Big Game. Both were great and arguments could be made for both guys. At this point, it just depends on who you like better. Therefore, I don't really hold a grudge against Bronco fans for thinking Elway was the better qb.

However, I think I need to remind some what the final score was in the Superbowl they played against each other. It was the largest margin of victory ever recorded in a Superbowl, and Elway's team didn't come out on top. 55-10.

Montana also led the most dramatic drive in championship history against the Bengals. "The Drive" was excellent, no doubt. But it wasn't for a world Championship.

Who came up bigger in the big games? Montana did hands down. Against Washington, San Fran, and the Giants, Elway got shut down and the Broncos lost all three. Montana never got shut down and was always key to his teams success in the Superbowls.

When you get two caliber of qb's like we're talking about, it has to come down to championships. No one would bother to argue that Marino or Kelly was better than Elway; at least I hope no one would. Therefore, in this conversation, championships have to be the deciding factor.



all this is true except the fact that Elway didnt have the supporting cast that Montana did. big difference there mate. in fact, John had to carry his teams early on to get to the big dance and by then the talent of his opposition finally had its toll.

[broncosteven]

The difference to me is how well each guy performed in the Big Game. Both were great and arguments could be made for both guys. At this point, it just depends on who you like better. Therefore, I don't really hold a grudge against Bronco fans for thinking Elway was the better qb.

However, I think I need to remind some what the final score was in the Superbowl they played against each other. It was the largest margin of victory ever recorded in a Superbowl, and Elway's team didn't come out on top. 55-10.

Montana also led the most dramatic drive in championship history against the Bengals. "The Drive" was excellent, no doubt. But it wasn't for a world Championship.

Who came up bigger in the big games? Montana did hands down. Against Washington, San Fran, and the Giants, Elway got shut down and the Broncos lost all three. Montana never got shut down to the point of being rendered ineffective and was always key to his teams success in the Superbowls.

When you get two caliber of qb's like we're talking about, it has to come down to championships. No one would bother to argue that Marino or Kelly was better than Elway; at least I hope no one would. Therefore, in this conversation, championships have to be the deciding factor.

Elway had a big drive that happened to go to TD on the ground. Just happened that TD ate up shuch big chunks of yardage so quick that it was not as dramatic to non Bronco fans. SBXXXII still greatest ever.

[DomCasual]

See boys...Meck understands how it works......BTW was it tough putting the word "appearances" in there?


1st rate teams talk about victories

2nd rate teams talk about appearances

3rd rate teams just keep quiet
Where does that put you, my little red friend?

[DomCasual]

Probably because Montana was an unselfish team player who made the players around him better. Maybe Elway should have tried that instead of being "the team".

Like you said, end of discussion.
Right. I remember all those years when Elway approached Dan Reeves. "Coach, I know you want to bring in a big-time receiver this year, but I really like this whole 'put it all on John's shoulders' approach, and I would rather you just draft, um, maybe someone like Tommy Maddox."

God bless you, Nap, but that is just a stupid comment.

[DomCasual]

There are system QB's (which Montana undoubtedly was) and athletes. John Elway was an athlete. Elway was an athlete that dominated games. It's like comparing A Favre/Vick hybrid with Tom Brady. It's difficult to choose who you whould rather have.

One thing is certain though. Take Brady's team from around him and his team looks pretty ordinary (as we are seeing this season). Take Elway's team from around him and you probably see things happen like the Oilers playoff game, the Drive, and the defining plays of the 80's and 90's.
System QB = Trent Green. That should make for a more meaningful analogy.

[Chimporilla]

all this is true except the fact that Elway didnt have the supporting cast that Montana did. big difference there mate. in fact, John had to carry his teams early on to get to the big dance and by then the talent of his opposition finally had its toll.

See, I don't buy that. If a team is good enough to get to a Superbowl, they're good enough to win it. The only exception I can think of is when the Patriots fluked their way to the '86 Superbowl against the Bears. They had no business being in that game.
Elway had his chances to not fold up against both Washington and the Giants. But both times he did. He led Washington 10-0 and IIRC, the Broncos were up at the half against the Giants.

I'm not trying to diminish Elway's accomplishments in any way. It's just that I see Montana as being the guy I'd rather have on my team in the Superbowl.

[DomCasual]

Elway had his chances to not fold up against both Washington and the Giants. But both times he did. He led Washington 10-0 and IIRC, the Broncos were up at the half against the Giants.
You're right. Elway should have been playing safety, instead of Tony Lilly. Because all those TDs in the second quarter were clearly plays Elway should have been able to stop.

[Northman]

See, I don't buy that. If a team is good enough to get to a Superbowl, they're good enough to win it. The only exception I can think of is when the Patriots fluked their way to the '86 Superbowl against the Bears. They had no business being in that game.
Elway had his chances to not fold up against both Washington and the Giants. But both times he did. He led Washington 10-0 and IIRC, the Broncos were up at the half against the Giants.

I'm not trying to diminish Elway's accomplishments in any way. It's just that I see Montana as being the guy I'd rather have on my team in the Superbowl.


Ok, well lets look at this way. if you switch the Qbs during their Super Bowl matchup would Montana still win that game? i dont think so.

[JPEZ]

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/attachment.php?attachmentid=11388&stc=1&d=1113491555

[Mile High Shack]

as Rick Reiley once said...to sum this all up

if Montana was on the team Elway was in the 80's, Montana would've been selling insurance in about 3 years

Elway would still of won all those superbowls Montana did if he was on Montana's team, possibly more

[Northman]

as Rick Reiley once said...to sum this all up

if Montana was on the team Elway was in the 80's, Montana would've been selling insurance in about 3 years

Elway would still of won all those superbowls Montana did if he was on Montana's team, possibly more


Definitely, well said. i dont think people TRULY understand how much of a factor John was during that time with the teams he had.

[Elway 4 Life]

The difference to me is how well each guy performed in the Big Game. Both were great and arguments could be made for both guys. At this point, it just depends on who you like better. Therefore, I don't really hold a grudge against Bronco fans for thinking Elway was the better qb.

However, I think I need to remind some what the final score was in the Superbowl they played against each other. It was the largest margin of victory ever recorded in a Superbowl, and Elway's team didn't come out on top. 55-10.

Montana also led the most dramatic drive in championship history against the Bengals. "The Drive" was excellent, no doubt. But it wasn't for a world Championship.

Who came up bigger in the big games? Montana did hands down. Against Washington, San Fran, and the Giants, Elway got shut down and the Broncos lost all three. Montana never got shut down to the point of being rendered ineffective and was always key to his teams success in the Superbowls.

When you get two caliber of qb's like we're talking about, it has to come down to championships. No one would bother to argue that Marino or Kelly was better than Elway; at least I hope no one would. Therefore, in this conversation, championships have to be the deciding factor.


WHAT???? Winningest alltime QB was elway not montana. If the roles were reversed would montana have been albe to lead the broncos anywhere? I just dont think so.

[ROYC75]

In all fairness, it's hard to get an unhomer view on this subject , on this BB.

Both were equal great with the style of offense they directed, neither of them woulf have flourished in the others schem or system, let's not kid ourselves here. Both would have been OK, but not to the greatness they came to be know of.

In all fairness, having a supporting cast around any QB make you go from good to great. ( Case in point now is , Fake Jake being held back and told to rely on his players around him more ) It says much for supporting cast.

Marino for as good as he was, never got to another SB because of enough supporting players around him, but a Trent Dilfer can win because of being held back and let the cast support him / ala Fake Jake .

Most times too much credit goes to the QB of a team in the NFL, when it's the supporting cast that makes a great QB.

Both were clutch performers when the chips were down........

As for who I would want on my team ............

1st choice ..... Montana
2nd choice .... Elway

[uk bronco]

4 rings > 2 rings to the tune of twice as good.

so does that mean that with his 2 superbowl ring elway is twice as good as every cheif ever?

[Northman]

In all fairness, it's hard to get an unhomer view on this subject , on this BB.

Both were equal great with the style of offense they directed, neither of them woulf have flourished in the others schem or system, let's not kid ourselves here. Both would have been OK, but not to the greatness they came to be know of.

In all fairness, having a supporting cast around any QB make you go from good to great. ( Case in point now is , Fake Jake being held back and told to rely on his players around him more ) It says much for supporting cast.

Marino for as good as he was, never got to another SB because of enough supporting players around him, but a Trent Dilfer can win because of being held back and let the cast support him / ala Fake Jake .

Most times too much credit goes to the QB of a team in the NFL, when it's the supporting cast that makes a great QB.

Both were clutch performers when the chips were down........

As for who I would want on my team ............

1st choice ..... Montana
2nd choice .... Elway



You make some valid points but again i have to bring up what John did with those average teams. yea, he didnt win the big one but he did carry them there 3 times. you just cant say the same for Montana, especially while he was a chief. and im not poking fun at you because your a chief fan ( well, ok maybe a little bit ) but he wasnt able to do the things with lesser talent like John was. i mean, when John finally got some great players around him the Broncos were virtually unstoppable.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Definitely, well said. i dont think people TRULY understand how much of a factor John was during that time with the teams he had.

The only other player I know of that is comparable to what Elway meant to all of his teams is Michael Jordan. Bret Favre is probably the closest thing as a QB.

Here are my All-Timers;

1. Elway
2. Favre
3. Marino
4. Montana
5. Young

[epicSocialism4tw]

You make some valid points but again i have to bring up what John did with those average teams. yea, he didnt win the big one but he did carry them there 3 times. you just cant say the same for Montana, especially while he was a chief. and im not poking fun at you because your a chief fan ( well, ok maybe a little bit ) but he wasnt able to do the things with lesser talent like John was. i mean, when John finally got some great players around him the Broncos were virtually unstoppable.


Yep. He was almost used up by then too.

[Northman]

The only other player I know of that is comparable to what Elway meant to all of his teams is Michael Jordan. Bret Favre is probably the closest thing as a QB.

Here are my All-Timers;

1. Elway
2. Favre
3. Marino
4. Montana
5. Young


I agree with your top 5 but a i would rearange them differently.


1) Elway
2) Favre
3) Montana
4) Young
5) Marino

[jonny1]

1) Elway
2) Montana
3) Unitas
4) Marino
5) Staubach

That would be my top five.

[missingnumber7]

I agree with your top 5 but a i would rearange them differently.


1) Elway
2) Favre
3) Montana
4) Young
5) Marino
I don't like Favre or Young in there. I do like some of the older guys...not that I have personally seen exept on classic.

1. Elway
2. Montana
3. Unitas
4. Marino
5. Jim Kelly...I know he had a good running game, but helping lead his team to 4 strait.

[Broncos Rule]

Best. Debate. Evar.

Gotta get Johnny U into the top 5..

1 Elway
2 Unitas
3 Montana
4 Favre
5 Young

Stats don't mean $hit without the Ring.

[yavoon]

This statement can be disproven very quickly.

1.) Take a look at the Colt's winning percentage when Peyton Manning has been injured and out in his career.

2.) Take a look at the Colt's winning percentage when Edgerin James has been injured and out in his career.

3.) Once you have realized the huge disparaty, you see that Peyton's cerebral play comes as much from the play action as Jake Plummer's bootleg. Then you suddenly realize that James won't return next year. OMG the Colts run is over!

peyton has never been injured. how could u lookup stats and then come here and tell us to compare them if they dont exist? do u like to makeup crap?

it seems I've been mistaken!

"Manning was selected first overall in the 1998 draft and has started every game in his NFL career, missing only one snap due to injury and many others due to large leads."

[errand]

So Trent Dilfer is a better QB than Marino was? :poke:

I dunno, but he's obviously better than that chump the chiefs have had @ QB the past few years.

[errand]

See boys...Meck understands how it works......BTW was it tough putting the word "appearances" in there?


1st rate teams talk about victories

2nd rate teams talk about appearances

3rd rate teams just keep quiet

Then why haven't you shut up yet?

[bro1ncos]

so does that mean that with his 2 superbowl ring elway is twice as good as every cheif ever?

Not sure about that, but I guess it does mean the Trent Dilfer = Len Dawson.

[No1BroncoFan]

neither of them woulf have flourished in the others schem or system
Bullsh*t! Elway won two championships and had his best statistical seasons once Shanny brought the WCO to Denver. Elway would have excelled in Frisco.

A little fvcking hardware and all the morons go nuts. Hell, Bradshaw's in the HOF because of his jewlery more than his talent. The sports media has programmed the masses to accept Montana as the king of the hill regardless of reality. It would be funny if it wasn't so pathetic.

Ben

[Gcver2ver3]

Top 5

1. Elway
2. Montana
3. Unitas
4. Marino
5. Young


Favre throws too many picks...he's hurting his legacy right now...he has 1 Super Bowl....3 MVP's but he's not as good as these top 5.

Honorable mentions...Otto Graham, Favre, Aikman, Staubach, & Kelly,

[errand]

Elways was the whole team because he didnt have a supporting cast. Not because he was a selfish player who just wanted to do everything himself. Way to take everything out of context to fulfill your hatred of Elway. Dumb@ss



I hear alot of Bronco fans say this...but the truth is John had some pretty good players on his team too.....someone had to catch those passes and throw a block or two....sure the Broncos of the 80's weren't the 49ers of the 80's...but they weren't the freaking Saints either.

John was surrounded with enough talent to get to the SB...he just didn't have enough around him to win it. Not to mention other than the '87 Redskins they played the most dominant teams of the season.

To say Montana was blessed with all-pro talent throughout the roster isn't exactly accurate either....can anyone on here name the 49ers leading rusher in '81 when they beat the Bengals? Can you name his #2 WR? TE? Sure he eventually was surrounded by better talent (Craig, Rice, Rathman, etc...) and that's when they started winning them in bunches.

I do believe that had they ended up in the other's shoes, the results would have been the same...personally I'd take Elway over Montana, because he was more durable, and had that cannon arm....but if he was already off the board and Montana was there knowing what we know now?

Of course we could end this debate with two words....Otto Graham. Took his team to 10 consecutive title games and won 7 of them.

[Elway 4 Life]

[QUOTE=ROYC75] Both were equal great with the style of offense they directed, neither of them woulf have flourished in the others schem or system, let's not kid ourselves here. Both would have been OK, but not to the greatness they came to be know of.

This is kind of a dumbass statement considering that Elway was in the same system when he won both championships. Unfortunately we had dum reeves all those years in a system that didnt let Elway fufill his full potential. If he had that system from day one we wouldnt even have this thread. Elway would have had a gretzky type of dominance in the position.

[errand]

You're right. Elway should have been playing safety, instead of Tony Lilly. Because all those TDs in the second quarter were clearly plays Elway should have been able to stop.

I'd like TJ to weigh in on this argument...because he held Jake and the O accountable for the D surrendering 35 points to the Colts...I wonder if he'll hold Elway accountable for the Broncos D giving up 30 2nd half points vs Giants, 35 2nd qtr points vs Redskins, and the 55 total points vs 49ers?

[errand]

[QUOTE=ROYC75] Both were equal great with the style of offense they directed, neither of them woulf have flourished in the others schem or system, let's not kid ourselves here. Both would have been OK, but not to the greatness they came to be know of.

This is kind of a dumbass statement considering that Elway was in the same system when he won both championships. Unfortunately we had dum reeves all those years in a system that didnt let Elway fufill his full potential. If he had that system from day one we wouldnt even have this thread. Elway would have had a gretzky type of dominance in the position.

Had you seen Red Miller's zany RB rotation offense you'd have jumped for joy when Reeves was hired....Craig Morton had not thrown for over 2,500 yards or even come close to 20 TD's prior to Reeves....in Reeves innaugural season he tossed for over 3,000 yards and 23 TD's.

[Elway 4 Life]

[QUOTE=Elway 4 Life]

Had you seen Red Miller's zany RB rotation offense you'd have jumped for joy when Reeves was hired....Craig Morton had not thrown for over 2,500 yards or even come close to 20 TD's prior to Reeves....in Reeves innaugural season he tossed for over 3,000 yards and 23 TD's.

No I was a little to young for morton. I began when John did. I remeber us having deberg but that was about it.

[Play2win]

Regardless of the "The Catch", nobody ran the SPRINT-RIGHT-OPTION better than JOHN!!! :notworthy

[Circle Orange]

Joe Montana shouldnt even be mentioned in the same sentence as Elway. If Elway were on those San Fran teams he would have won at least 8 or 9 superbowls. It's just unfortunate that Elway didnt get much help until the end of his career. I just hate comparing a good QB (montana) with a great QB (ELWAY) and then having some dumbass chucklehead saying montana one 4 superbowls, he's the best. Troy Aikman won a bunch of superbowls but I would never consider him one of the all time greats. Joe montana is over ******* rated.

This argument is older than cheese...no one calls Bradshaw the best either, and he has four rings too. People make excuses for who they want.

Man, the media must have T.O. burnout to rehash this topic. ugh!~

[Circle Orange]

Actually Brady is having statistically one of his best years ever in terms of stats and passed the 20 mark for fourth qtr comebacks this year at only 28 years old. Elway I believe finished at 47


Brady's "comebacks" are mostly finished with field goals, ala Viniteri...hardly awe inspiring stuff.

Just don't say that too loud...we all know Brady is better than sex, sliced bread and the wheel. :loopy:

[watermock]

I don't have any problem giving Montana his props...Waffleboy is an idiot...why bother with who was better? Both are in the HOF...just shut up allready, your the only person I have on ignore...get a clue...

[watermock]

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/image.php?u=26&dateline=1130736845

I always thought Zena was a bit to much to bite off...I take the blonde...thoughts?

[24champ]

isnt Zena a lesbian?

[Atlas]

He has as many rings as Elway had at this point in his career and does everything much better except eat hard corn off the cob.

Elway had taken the Broncos to the SB 2 times by his 5th year in the league,

[Atlas]

Top 5

1. Elway
2. Montana
3. Unitas
4. Marino
5. Young


Favre throws too many picks...he's hurting his legacy right now...he has 1 Super Bowl....3 MVP's but he's not as good as these top 5.

Honorable mentions...Otto Graham, Favre, Aikman, Staubach, & Kelly,

I would put Unitas #2

[-Slap-]

Who came up bigger in the big games? Montana did hands down. Against Washington, San Fran, and the Giants, Elway got shut down and the Broncos lost all three. Montana never got shut down to the point of being rendered ineffective and was always key to his teams success in the Superbowls.

Oh, Joe Montana was never rendered ineffective in a big game, huh?

In 1985, the 49ers got killed by the Giants 17-3 in the playoffs.

In 1986, the 49ers got their **** pushed by the Giants again, 49-3 this time. Joe finished the game in an ambulance.

in 1987, the 49ers, who were being castigated nationally as a soft team, again got abused in the playoffs, falling 36-24 to the Minnesota Vikings.

Montana's combined statistics in those three (according to you) non-big games?

46 for 88, a Rick Mirer like completion percentage of 52%.

Zero (0) touchdowns and four interceptions.

Either you have a poor memory, or you're another stripling who's been poorly educated at ESPN University.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Oh, Joe Montana was never rendered ineffective in a big game, huh?

In 1985, the 49ers got killed by the Giants 17-3 in the playoffs.

In 1986, the 49ers got their **** pushed by the Giants again, 49-3 this time. Joe finished the game in an ambulance.

in 1987, the 49ers, who were being castigated nationally as a soft team, again got abused in the playoffs, falling 36-24 to the Minnesota Vikings.

Montana's combined statistics in those three (according to you) non-big games?

46 for 88, a Rick Mirer like completion percentage of 52%.

Zero (0) touchdowns and four interceptions.

Either you have a poor memory, or you're another stripling who's been poorly educated at ESPN University.

Great stuff, Slap.

I think that the latter cause is probably the actual cause for the ignorance.

[-Slap-]

I have never seen a Chimporilla. Not in captivity, not even on the internet.

I believe the Mandrill is an underrated simian.

http://img458.imageshack.us/img458/6995/mandrillmale0320035723c4iz.jpg

[elsid13]

:laugh:

[-Slap-]

Joe Montana better than John Elway?

Right here, Monkey Boy!

http://img458.imageshack.us/img458/9258/apefinger3lg.jpg

[Sir Mawn]

I'm not even sure Joe Montana is the greatest 49er ever. I'd take the athletic, smart, elusive, gutsy, and warrior-like Steve Young over Joe Cool any day.

[Sir Mawn]

Not to say Montana wasn't great of course.

[missingnumber7]

I'm not even sure Joe Montana is the greatest 49er ever. I'd take the athletic, smart, elusive, gutsy, and warrior-like Steve Young over Joe Cool any day.
Young just rode the coattails of what montana had already built up

[Sir Mawn]

Young just rode the coattails of what montana had already built up

Montana built up? I think Montana is a tad overated. Are you saying he built a team now?

[Circle Orange]

The only other player I know of that is comparable to what Elway meant to all of his teams is Michael Jordan. Bret Favre is probably the closest thing as a QB.

Here are my All-Timers;

1. Elway
2. Favre
3. Marino
4. Montana
5. Young

Jordan did nothing for SEVEN YEARS until he had a supporting cast of high caliber players. Translate that to a quarterback career, and no one would call anybody the best ever. The same people who still lick Jordan's feet now are the same ones that called him a selfish ball hawk (aka Marino syndrome) that would get records and no championships.

REVISIONIST HISTORY IS HELL....:poke:

[rbackfactory80]

That is the thing about talking football, everything is relative.

[BroncoBuff]

The only other player I know of that is comparable to what Elway meant to all of his teams is Michael Jordan. Bret Favre is probably the closest thing as a QB.

Here are my All-Timers;

1. Elway
2. Favre
3. Marino
4. Montana
5. Young

I think it depends on what you're looking for - what you value.

For pure skills, Steve Young was definitely #1, imo. He was a MUCH more accurate passer than Elway or Favre. Better scramble, runner, and more - skills only, though.

He did not have the nearly-psychotic competitive mindset of Elway, though. Elway wouldda never sat on a bench behind even Montana for what? 4 years? Elway was pissing off DeBerg in his ROOKIE YEAR he was so competitive. He junked a 4 thousand dollar pool table after Bubby Brister beat him on it.

I think that this competitive fire sets many guys apart. For example, I thought Jeff George had the strongest arm I ever saw - but his head was mush!

[rbackfactory80]

System QB's

[orange 4 life]

So Trent Dilfer is a better QB than Marino was? :poke:

exactly.

its such a COMPLETELY dumb argument it doesnt even deserve attention.

also, the probowl count of players around them is never mentioned (except by alec on this thread. nice job)

montana vs. elway?

there's no comparison. none.
its a friggin joke.
montana wasnt even the best qb on his own team.
that honor goes to steve young, who replaced montana, won another superbowl, did it with a higher qb rating (since everyone sucked montanas balls because he had the highest ever rating, which is a joke stat anyway), and increased rice's numbers substantially.

go look up jerry rice's stats, and then look at the jump when young took over.

anyway, this argument is complete nonsense.

elway was twice the qb montana was, and it only takes HALF a brain to be able to see that.

jake

[Circle Orange]

I think it depends on what you're looking for - what you value.

For pure skills, Steve Young was definitely #1, imo. He was a MUCH more accurate passer than Elway or Favre. Better scramble, runner, and more - skills only, though.

He did not have the nearly-psychotic competitive mindset of Elway, though. Elway wouldda never sat on a bench behind even Montana for what? 4 years? Elway was pissing off DeBerg in his ROOKIE YEAR he was so competitive. He junked a 4 thousand dollar pool table after Bubby Brister beat him on it.

I think that this competitive fire sets many guys apart. For example, I thought Jeff George had the strongest arm I ever saw - but his head was mush!

You know, its interesting you bring this up. Acutally Young was a better runner, Elway a better scrambler. Young never had a particularly strong arm, either. The best running qbs tend to not be very accurate when they run and throw. Scramblers often are. And absolutely nobody threw the ball across the field like Elway, before or since. The torque he got on that thing was unbelievable.

BTW, an NFL reciever (I wish I could remember his name, but can't) had a recent quote when Jeff George was being worked out for a backup position. He'd caught passes from both Elway and George, and said George actually threw a more catchable ball. (Help me out, not sure of the team. This receiver is on the same club that tried out George).

[BroncoBuff]

elway was twice the qb montana was, and it only takes HALF a brain to be able to see that.

jake
You sound angry.

How about that 55-10 game . . . January 1990?

[BroncoBuff]

You know, its interesting you bring this up. Acutally Young was a better runner, Elway a better scrambler. Young never had a particularly strong arm, either. The best running qbs tend to not be very accurate when they run and throw. Scramblers often are. And absolutely nobody threw the ball across the field like Elway, before or since. The torque he got on that thing was unbelievable.

BTW, an NFL reciever (I wish I could remember his name, but can't) had a recent quote when Jeff George was being worked out for a backup position. He'd caught passes from both Elway and George, and said George actually threw a more catchable ball. (Help me out, not sure of the team. This receiver is on the same club that tried out George).
Ravens? Browns?

I agree Elway had a stronger arm than Young - but Young was a much more accurate passer. Maybe Elway scrambled better, but it was close . . .

HEY, Circle! Post #1001! (Jake-doo #200 - I congratted your #1000 on another thread . . . BRILLIANT!)

[orange 4 life]

You sound angry.

How about that 55-10 game . . . January 1990?

quite honestly, it does make me angry.

comments like that make me angry.

did you bother to look at the rosters on both teams, or do you like many others just think it was one on one?

fact is, that '89 team had no business in the playoffs let alone in the superbowl.
elway had 2 or 3 guys in his face before he finished his dropback, and montana had time to eat a picknick lunch, take a nap, and then read a book before having to make a decision.
he also had the lovely feeling of knowing he could dump the ball off 5 yards downfield and watch his receivers turn it into an 80 yard td.

yeah, i remember that game well, and its complete lunacy to point to that game as evidence that montana was a better qb.
in fact, it just illustrates my point further.
montanas TEAMS were so totally dominant that he simply needed to be a leader and keep it rolling.
he did that well, and for that i give him credit.
i'd squeeze him in the top 10 for his leadership and accuracy, but he's nowhere near number one....
....not by a mile.

jake

[Circle Orange]

Ravens? Browns?

I agree Elway had a stronger arm than Young - but Young was a much more accurate passer. Maybe Elway scrambled better, but it was close . . .

HEY, Circle! Post #1001! (Jake-doo #200 - I congratted your #1000 on another thread . . . BRILLIANT!)


Tankee...I might do a few hairstyles for other NFL players. All suggestions are welcome! :thumbsup:

[BroncoBuff]

You sound angry.

quite honestly, it does make me angry.

comments like that make me angry.


EXACTLY!

No - you're right - that's no barometer. But you're really down on Montana, and I can't quite wrap my mind around that. I think his SB drive vs. Cincy was the best, most clutch drive ever - and he was pointing out John Candy in the crowd!

Sure, he wasn't the most FIERY or the most ATHLETIC - but those are also reason why he might be the BEST!

[orange 4 life]

Ravens? Browns?

I agree Elway had a stronger arm than Young - but Young was a much more accurate passer. Maybe Elway scrambled better, but it was close . . .

HEY, Circle! Post #1001! (Jake-doo #200 - I congratted your #1000 on another thread . . . BRILLIANT!)

young RAN better, but elway SCRAMBLED better.

elway could elude a pass rush better than anyone in history, but once they took off and ran young was a much better runner.

accuracy is too broad.
young was more accurate from 5-15 yards.
elway was more accurate over 15 yards because he had the strength to throw it on a rope.

at least people are talking about attributes as opposed to some retarded "4 rings is better than 2" lunacy.

anyone wanna tell me that staubach and bradshaw were better than elway too?
i didnt think so.

[orange 4 life]

EXACTLY!

No - you're right - that's no barometer. But you're really down on Montana, and I can't quite wrap my mind around that. I think his SB drive vs. Cincy was the best, most clutch drive ever - and he was pointing out John Candy in the crowd!

Sure, he wasn't the most FIERY or the most ATHLETIC - but those are also reason why he might be the BEST!

buff,

i said i put him in the top ten.
to put him in the top two or three is just nutty to me.
he simply wasnt that good.
VERY good? yes.

the BEST? not by a long shot.

...though i do agree that that '81 team and that specific drive were fantastic and to me the high point of his career, but again. best driver ever?
no.
great drive, but also a drive that you knew elway would make ON CALL.

again, montana was a VERY good qb, but not nearly the best ever.

[BroncoBuff]

Tankee...I might do a few hairstyles for other NFL players. All suggestions are welcome! :thumbsup:
Well, there's this wide receiver in Philadelphia, maybe you could . . . coif him! Yikes!

[Circle Orange]

. anyone wanna tell me that staubach and bradshaw were better than elway too?
i didnt think so.


On Fox, Bradshaw said elway was the most gifted quarterback he'd ever seen. All the more impressive considering he himself was a #1 pick, and criticized elway heavily early in his career.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

If there had been a message board back in 1979...would Orange 4 Life have been blowing Craig Morton endlessly?

[Play2win]

accuracy is too broad.
young was more accurate from 5-15 yards.
elway was more accurate over 15 yards because he had the strength to throw it on a rope.

I beg to differ. In Elway's Last 3 years, I think his accuracy was as good as anyone in the game. He did a Quantum leap in his overall QBing skill his last three years, which is pretty Fvcking scary, because he was real damn good before that. His touch on his swing passes and fades and overall accuracy was top-notch his last 3 years.

[orange 4 life]

If there had been a message board back in 1979...would Orange 4 Life have been blowing Craig Morton endlessly?

no dipsh!t, since morton was average.

to compare elway and morton is retarded...
..kinda like you.

as for plummer, have you missed the national media attention?
looks like i was right about him too idiot stick.

go fvck yourself

[orange 4 life]

I beg to differ. In Elway's Last 3 years, I think his accuracy was as good as anyone in the game. He did a Quantum leap in his overall QBing skill his last three years, which is pretty Fvcking scary, because he was real damn good before that. His touch on his swing passes and fades and overall accuracy was top-notch his last 3 years.

that i would agree with, though if you look at overall careers young was more solid in the shorter game.
by the end elway was deadly accurate from any distance, and the more amazing thing is that he could still run. not as well as he could in his 20's, but he still retained that elusiveness in the pocket and a solid ability to run it downfield.
heck, his biggest single game running the ball was in the mid 90's!!

[Play2win]

that i would agree with, though if you look at overall careers young was more solid in the shorter game.
by the end elway was deadly accurate from any distance, and the more amazing thing is that he could still run. not as well as he could in his 20's, but he still retained that elusiveness in the pocket and a solid ability to run it downfield.
heck, his biggest single game running the ball was in the mid 90's!!
Yep! :thumbsup:

In Elway's last 3 years, he was THE PERFECT QB. The most well rounded QB ever, plus he still had that insane competitive drive.

Thats one thing alot of people forget about Elway and Jordan is their GOD-LIKE Competitive Drive. :strong:

[Bob's your Information Minister]

as for plummer, have you missed the national media attention?
looks like i was right about him too idiot stick.


The national media attention for a QB who's team ranks 19th in passing yards per game is laughable.

If you are truly right about him, we will see down the stretch. You probably thought you were "right" about him after the first half of last season, too.

[orange 4 life]

The national media attention for a QB who's team ranks 19th in passing yards per game is laughable.

If you are truly right about him, we will see down the stretch. You probably thought you were "right" about him after the first half of last season, too.

after the first half of last season he had 10 int's numb nuts.
granted, he had to play from well behind in a couple games, but his stats were vastly different than they are this year.

further, you show your typical stupidity by trotting out a meaningless stat such as passing yards per game.
ever occur to you that when we get into the second half we run the ball alot more?
probably not, because you'd need a brain to figure that out, and unless the wizard of oz is real i think youre stuck being brain dead.

go jump out a window.

[BroncoBuff]

Yep! :thumbsup:

In Elway's last 3 years, he was THE PERFECT QB. The most well rounded QB ever, plus he still had that insane competitive drive.

Thats one thing alot of people forget about Elway and Jordan is their GOD-LIKE Competitive Drive. :strong:
We are definitely in agreement here - I said the same thing on the first page of this thread.

And, yes . . . the last 3 years of his career he was spot-on perfect. (There was this other guy on the team, too . . . Terrell something ? ? ?)
THAT SAID . . . John was not - over the course of his career - a particularly accurate passer. In fact, he was puzzlingly inaccurate at times. Not on a Todd Blackledge level or anything, but he would definitely miss targets - often having long dry spells.

What John had most was fire - and physical strength, imo. Steve Young and Randall Cunningham both had greater skills, again, imo. Jeff George and randall - stronger arms. But John hated to lose so badly, it was obsessive.

______________

I shouldn't say Jeff george had a stronger are, per se - there was just something about a Jeff George ball - it seemed to actually gain velocity while it was in the air . . . a real anomale.

[errand]

[QUOTE=errand]

No I was a little to young for morton. I began when John did. I remeber us having deberg but that was about it.

You didn't miss him by much, he retired after the '82 season ended.....

Morton played from '77-'82, and the Broncos went 12-2 (SBXII), 10-6, 10-6, 8-8, 10-6, then 2-7 in the strike shortened '82 season.

He wasn't flashy, nor the best QB on the field in most of the games he played, but he was tough, had a cannon arm, and a good leader. Everyone talks about Elways comebacks, and make no mistake, he was the comeback king, but Morton was the guy who led the Broncos to one of the NFL's biggest comebacks....trailing 34-10 midway through the 3rd QTR, he came off the bench and threw 3 TD passes en route to an exciting 37-34 win over the Seahawks.

In 1981 he hit on 17 of 18 passes for over 300 yards and 4 TD's vs the Chargers. But, my favorite memory of Morton was his 32 yard play action TD pass to Jack Dolbin that sealed the Broncos 34-21 divisional playoff win over the Steelers in the Broncos first ever playoff game.

[errand]

Oh, Joe Montana was never rendered ineffective in a big game, huh?

In 1985, the 49ers got killed by the Giants 17-3 in the playoffs.

In 1986, the 49ers got their **** pushed by the Giants again, 49-3 this time. Joe finished the game in an ambulance.

in 1987, the 49ers, who were being castigated nationally as a soft team, again got abused in the playoffs, falling 36-24 to the Minnesota Vikings.

Montana's combined statistics in those three (according to you) non-big games?

46 for 88, a Rick Mirer like completion percentage of 52%.

Zero (0) touchdowns and four interceptions.

Either you have a poor memory, or you're another stripling who's been poorly educated at ESPN University.

Not to mention was it his fumble that the Giants recovered to seal a 15-13 victory when they went to SBXXV?

[errand]

no dipsh!t, since morton was average.

to compare elway and morton is retarded...
..kinda like you.

as for plummer, have you missed the national media attention?
looks like i was right about him too idiot stick.

go fvck yourself

If you think the offensive talent and game plan was bad in John's early years....you should have seen what Morton had to deal with from '77-'80. Haven Moses was the only playmaker he had. thank God we had a stifling defense.

What's really funny is that Morton had a rebirth of sorts when reunited with his old friend Dan Reeves, (just as John did when Mike became our head coach).....actually putting up solid numbers in '81.....and quite frankly had we ran Dan's offfense from '77-'80, I truly believe we'd have won SBXII....then again maybe it's just wishful thinking on my part.

[-Slap-]

Not to mention was it his fumble that the Giants recovered to seal a 15-13 victory when they went to SBXXV?
Good memory, Errand. Input from people who actually watched the games is always appreciated.

:thumbsup:

[TomServo]

im just old enough to see some true greats leave the game....Unitas in a bolts uniform, broadway joe in a rams uniform(ok he wasnt that great). oj in a niners uniform. earl campbell in a saints uniform....
it must drive elway haters crazy to see him leave the game on top of the world.
i really would like to see what montana could have done with sammy winder and the vance as his top offensive threats.

[messiahtyp]

im just old enough to see some true greats leave the game....Unitas in a bolts uniform, broadway joe in a rams uniform(ok he wasnt that great). oj in a niners uniform. earl campbell in a saints uniform....
it must drive elway haters crazy to see him leave the game on top of the world.
i really would like to see what montana could have done with sammy winder and the vance as his top offensive threats.

ricky patton, earl cooper.

[TomServo]

well montana did win his first SB against one of the nfls greatest passers but worst playoff QBs ever.

[Atlas]

you should have seen what Morton had to deal with from '77-'80. Haven Moses was the only playmaker he had. thank God we had a stifling defense.
.

That's not really true. Riley Odoms and Rick Upchurch were play makers. The fact was that those early Bronco teams were actually pretty good at making big plays it was the long sustained drives they had problems with. When the defense got a turnover often the offense woulod go for a quick strike TD. Morten did throw a pretty good deep ball for his age.

[Mr Chatterboodamn]

Actually Brady is having statistically one of his best years ever in terms of stats and passed the 20 mark for fourth qtr comebacks this year at only 28 years old. Elway I believe finished at 47

pats have an answer for everything, shoot.

[errand]

ricky patton, earl cooper.

Exactly, that's why this debate is kind of irritating....sure Elway played more years with less talented guys than Montana did, but that's not to say Montana couldn't elevate the people around him.

In '81 he won a SB with those two Joe WhotheHell's on offense. And let's not forget how much better the KC Chiefs played when he was their QB....so to say Montana just lucked out isn't accurate.

By the same token as Slap pointed out, he wasn't always $$$$ in big time games either (although he was in the biggest of all games). He got clobbered in quite a few playoff games, and didn't play well in any of those in which he got clobbered.

Elway had fewer playmakers on his team during the Reeves era.....players good enough to help him get to the SB, but they just weren't good enough to win it. But that doesn't mean that John wasn't talented enough to win one...and once he was surrounded by better, more physical players, he won two in a row...and if not for the Jags playing above their heads and john retiring, who knows, perhaps he too might have 4 rings.

In fact anyone watching the Giants-Broncos SB would be quickly reminded of that Sugar Bowl between Va. Tech and FSU, where despite playing a far superior team, Michael Vick ran around and made plays throwing the ball and scrambling...until the wheels fell off under a plethora of mental mistakes by his less talented, less physically blessed teammates.

As far who should be ranked higher, that's subjective to whoever is doing the ranking...I'm sure there's some clown in Houston making the case for Warren Moon as the best ever. Again it's subjective to whoever is setting the criteria.

If your criteria is skills, John wins hands down. Physical gifts, again John wins in a landslide. Ability to lead, one could argue Montana or Elway. Winning football games, John is the NFL's winningest QB. Championships, Montana had twice as many, but as I noted earlier if titles is all that counts, then Joe is no better than Bradshaw, and he pales in comparison to Otto Graham.

And while I still believe that if one played in the other's shoes the outcome would have been similiar, it is hard to argue with the fact that as he got older Joe's skills diminished alot compared to Elway's....in fact one could legitimately argue that had John decided to play one more season he might have won yet another SB

[Bob's your Information Minister]

I've always held the opinion that Elway was the more talented football player but Montana was the better one.

[errand]

That's not really true. Riley Odoms and Rick Upchurch were play makers. The fact was that those early Bronco teams were actually pretty good at making big plays it was the long sustained drives they had problems with. When the defense got a turnover often the offense woulod go for a quick strike TD. Morten did throw a pretty good deep ball for his age.

Nobody could ever accuse Morton of losing arm strength as he got older.

And yes, Odoms was a big part of the offense and Upchurch to a lesser extent (although he was a superior return man)...but the point I was making is we get alot of fans in here bitching about Reeves antiquated system (when compared to Mike's Star Wars system).....who never saw Red Miller swapping out guys like Keyworth, Lytle, Armstrong, and Perrin every other play it seems. He took situational substitutions to the extreme.

If ever there was an offense that used the run and pass to set up the punt...it was Red Miller's. Just as Mike's hiring seemed like it took the chains off John and our offense....when Dan came here it was like the handcuffs were taken off of Morton as well.

It's no secret that our D carried the '77 team, all our offense had to do was wait until they'd force a turnover and then cash in on it (which they seemed to do quite frequently). The Ravens have nothing on the '77 Broncos......

[errand]

I've always held the opinion that Elway was the more talented football player but Montana was the better one.

This argument is like the Mary Ann or Ginger one....both were hot, both were hard bodies, both made your blood boil with lust and if you were stranded on a deserted island, does it really matter which one you were stranded with?

I say no.....it all comes down to preferences now...if you don't like brunettes or her accent, then perhaps Ginger is your girl. If you like eating great food and the girl next door, Mary Ann is the poster girl for that.

But when you get down to the basic or better yet, the only reason you'd even want a woman on a deserted island....well, I'm sure both could get the job done.

[errand]

well montana did win his first SB against one of the nfls greatest passers but worst playoff QBs ever.

...and Elway lost to far lesser talents in Phil Simms, and Doug Williams...and won his second against a moderately tolerable QB in Chris Chandler.

you don't have to degrade Joe to build up John...John's talent and achievements are merit enough for him to be considered the best ever to play the game....as are Joe's.

again I'd have been grateful my team had either guy playing for them.....although if I had my druthers I'd pick John because he was more durable and had a stronger arm

[-Slap-]

This argument is like the Mary Ann or Ginger one....both were hot, both were hard bodies, both made your blood boil with lust and if you were stranded on a deserted island, does it really matter which one you were stranded with?

I say no.....it all comes down to preferences now...if you don't like brunettes or her accent, then perhaps Ginger is your girl. If you like eating great food and the girl next door, Mary Ann is the poster girl for that.

But when you get down to the basic or better yet, the only reason you'd even want a woman on a deserted island....well, I'm sure both could get the job done.
What if you were stranded on a desert island with Montana?

How long before he started looking good to you?

[errand]

What if you were stranded on a desert island with Montana?

How long before he started looking good to you?

:laugh:


Let's hope that's never the case....but tell me are you saying you'd rather have John than Joe looking you up and down or vice versa?

[Bob's your Information Minister]

I think Joe clearly wins in the looks department:

http://picnic.ciao.com/es/768886.jpghttp://www.gambling911.com/joe-montana.jpg

[-Slap-]

:laugh:


Let's hope that's never the case....but tell me are you saying you'd rather have John than Joe looking you up and down or vice versa?
It would have to be Joe. I'm not playing bitch for anybody and it would too disrespectful to hump John.

[errand]

It would have to be Joe. I'm not playing b**** for anybody and it would too disrespectful to hump John.

Reminds me of Eddie Murphy's rountine where he wondered aloud about Mr. T being gay....Hilarious!

[errand]

Joe Montana looks too much like Barry Manilow.......

[BroncoBuff]

I think Joe clearly wins in the looks department:

http://picnic.ciao.com/es/768886.jpghttp://www.gambling911.com/joe-montana.jpg
Those are some very BLUE PEEPERS on Johnny . . . but, trust me - somebody PhotoShopped some blue into Joey's eyes!

[Atlas]

King John is on the right spot on this sculpture
http://cfapp.rockymountainnews.com/broncos/elway/elwaydrew.jpg

[24champ]

I think Joe clearly wins in the looks department:

http://picnic.ciao.com/es/768886.jpghttp://www.gambling911.com/joe-montana.jpg
only you would care about a guys look boob.

[Jason in LA]

I'm not about to read this thread. I'll just say that when I saw the title I knew it was going to be a long one.

[Circle Orange]

King John is on the right spot on this sculpture
http://cfapp.rockymountainnews.com/broncos/elway/elwaydrew.jpg


I never understood why John was drawn so cartoony and the others realistic. Kind of jarring and annoying. :pfbbt: