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alkemical
11-07-2005, 10:03 AM
Since some voting is tomorrow - take time and read this (6 pages) - here's a sample:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9939709/

FBI mines records of ordinary Americans
Under Patriot Act, feds probe lives of residents not alleged to be terrorists

The FBI came calling in Windsor, Conn., this summer with a document marked for delivery by hand. On Matianuk Avenue, across from the tennis courts, two special agents found their man. They gave George Christian the letter, which warned him to tell no one, ever, what it said.

Under the shield and stars of the FBI crest, the letter directed Christian to surrender "all subscriber information, billing information and access logs of any person" who used a specific computer at a library branch some distance away. Christian, who manages digital records for three dozen Connecticut libraries, said in an affidavit that he configures his system for privacy. But the vendors of the software he operates said their databases can reveal the Web sites that visitors browse, the e-mail accounts they open and the books they borrow.

Christian refused to hand over those records, and his employer, Library Connection Inc., filed suit for the right to protest the FBI demand in public. The Washington Post established their identities -- still under seal in the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 2nd Circuit -- by comparing unsealed portions of the file with public records and information gleaned from people who had no knowledge of the FBI demand.

Steep rise in ‘national security letters’
The Connecticut case affords a rare glimpse of an exponentially growing practice of domestic surveillance under the USA Patriot Act, which marked its fourth anniversary on Oct. 26. "National security letters," created in the 1970s for espionage and terrorism investigations, originated as narrow exceptions in consumer privacy law, enabling the FBI to review in secret the customer records of suspected foreign agents. The Patriot Act, and Bush administration guidelines for its use, transformed those letters by permitting clandestine scrutiny of U.S. residents and visitors who are not alleged to be terrorists or spies.

(continued on site)

enjolras
11-07-2005, 10:57 AM
Stupid law..

I guess we're still supposed to just take their word that it won't be abused.

alkemical
11-07-2005, 11:18 AM
Agreed. Our gov't is growing to large, too fast, and wants too much power over us citizens. Instead of being a gov't by the people, it's a gov't over the people.

mosca
11-07-2005, 10:29 PM
Stupid law..

I guess we're still supposed to just take their word that it won't be abused.
just out of curiosity ... in your opinion, what would be a hypothetical example of this law being abused?

ClevelandBronco2
11-08-2005, 01:42 AM
The government owns the library.

Some citizens use the library.

The government owns the library records.

The goverment actually looks at their records.

Some citizens feign outrage.

The government owns the library and its use is entirely voluntary.

Get a job. Buy the book and put some distance between you and the government if it bothers you that much.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
11-08-2005, 03:35 AM
The government owns the library.

:stupid:

The federal government 'owns' the Connecticut libraries cited in the article?

Some citizens use the library.

Which is funded with their tax money.

Come to think of it, so is the federal government and its employees.

I thought you and the rest of the conservative brain trust were against "taxation without representation."

The government owns the library records.

See above.

The goverment actually looks at their records.

But isn't your mantra supposed to be "get government off our backs?"

Some citizens feign outrage.

And Bush lemmings like you invariably only claim such outrage is fake until the government's meddling affects you personally.

The government owns the library...

You already said that.

Shall we file it under "repeat a lie or a half-truth often enough...?"

...and its use is entirely voluntary.

???

How does this have any bearing on the appropriateness of the federal government's actions?

Get a job. Buy the book and put some distance between you and the government if it bothers you that much.

Get a clue. Learn how public libraries are funded with your tax money, and learn how government is supposed to work in a representative democracy.

And while you're at it, do something about that right-wing "get government off our backs" double standard of yours.

bendog
11-08-2005, 07:12 AM
just out of curiosity ... in your opinion, what would be a hypothetical example of this law being abused?
Just what's going on. The FBI randomly accessing yours or my or someone elses, we don't know whose, email, websurfing, auto bill paying, banking, telephone, etc records .... just to check up on us. They no longer need to have a reason to spy on us, they can just do it randomly. That's an abuse of power.

elsid13
11-08-2005, 01:54 PM
The government owns the library.


I am sorry I always thought that the citizens of the country collectively owned the public institutions. We elect representatives to government to express our beliefs, ideas and act on our concerns, we don't elect them to be our "lords".

The Patriot Act was flawed from the begin and was not well thought. It was the chicken little approach to government, the sky is falling and we need to do something. It is time to reexamining the basis of our concerns and come up with better legislation. There is no reason the FBI can not bring the national security letter in-front independent judicial panel for approval to execute a search. The panel can be held in secret, but all information must be made public within 5 years unless it is part of ongoing criminal investigations or directly effect national security operations.

orangenblue2
11-08-2005, 02:29 PM
Get a job. Buy the book and put some distance between you and the government if it bothers you that much.

Didn't the article state that the Govt. would "track your spending habits" as well...

bendog
11-08-2005, 02:31 PM
oh Lord, Porn cigars and cheap vodka.

orangenblue2
11-08-2005, 02:41 PM
oh Lord, Porn cigars and cheap vodka.

I'm waiting for them to break down my door and ask what I'm doing with "1 oversized velvet jesus print, a jar of brown gravy, cake candles, and a slinky"...

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
11-08-2005, 02:42 PM
oh Lord, Porn cigars and cheap vodka.

Not sure about the vodka, but a cigar automatically makes you a "person of interest" to the reich-wing establishment. ;)

alkemical
11-08-2005, 03:15 PM
http://www.capitolhillblue.com/artman/publish/article_7625.shtml

White House keeps dossiers on more than 10,000 'political enemies'
By DOUG THOMPSON
Publisher, Capitol Hill Blue
Nov 8, 2005, 06:40
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Spurred by paranoia and aided by the USA Patriot Act, the Bush Administration has compiled dossiers on more than 10,000 Americans it considers political enemies and uses those files to wage war on those who disagree with its policies.

The “enemies list” dates back to Bush’s days as governor of Texas and can be accessed by senior administration officials in an instant for use in campaigns to discredit those who speak out against administration policies or acts of the President.

The computerized files include intimate personal details on members of Congress; high-ranking local, state and federal officials; prominent media figures and ordinary citizens who may, at one time or another, have spoken out against the President or Administration.