outsiders on kenoy kennedy

[yavoon]

Kenoy Kennedy is the best strong safety in the league. If you don’t want to take my word for it, just take a look at Detroit’s defensive DVOA, No. 1 against tight ends, the position the strong safety usually covers. Last year, when Kennedy was in Denver, Detroit was terrible against tight ends, and Denver was No. 2 in the league.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/2005/11/03/ramblings/every-play-counts/3150/

[Jesterhole]

"Usually covers" is an interesting term, and why the FO can kiss my ass. Kennoy couldn't cover sh!t, he was a run stuffer/liability. Our linebackers usually cover tight end in Denver, unless it's one of the big boys and they get Champ on them.

[yavoon]

"Usually covers" is an interesting term, and why the FO can kiss my ass. Kennoy couldn't cover sh!t, he was a run stuffer/liability. Our linebackers usually cover tight end in Denver, unless it's one of the big boys and they get Champ on them.

so the mere presence of kenoy makes u good against tight ends? denver is now 15th against tight ends, as opposed to second. and detroit is of course the opposite of that.

[-Slap-]

Classic example of a website trying to apply generalizations about the entire League without considering that defenses employ a variety of coverage schemes.

Also a classic example of a guy trying to scout players by the numbers without watching them play. We all saw Kennoy in coverage. He had no ball awareness at all for the first three years in Denver, but he slowly improved to where he wasn't a total liability in coverage. This is like reading scouting reports on young pitchers by people who've never seen them pitch. Some kid will have more strikeouts than innings pitched and they'll automatically tout him as a hard thrower, whether its true or not.

[yavoon]

Classic example of a website trying to apply generalizations about the entire League without considering that defenses employ a variety of coverage schemes.

Also a classic example of a guy trying to scout players by the numbers without watching them play. We all saw Kennoy in coverage. He had no ball awareness at all for the first three years in Denver, but he slowly improved to where he wasn't a total liability in coverage. This is like reading scouting reports on young pitchers by people who've never seen them pitch. Some kid will have more strikeouts than innings pitched and they'll automatically tout him as a hard thrower, whether its true or not.

are u saying that kenoy was involved minimally in the coverage of the tight end in denver AND in detroit? its all well and good to say "haha u have to watch the game." but I think if u want to disagree then REALLY disagree, come out and say "kenoy has very little impact on what an opposing tight end does(good or bad)." because its pretty obvious the team kenoy is on improves against the tight end.

[-Slap-]

are u saying that kenoy was involved minimally in the coverage of the tight end in denver AND in detroit? its all well and good to say "haha u have to watch the game." but I think if u want to disagree then REALLY disagree, come out and say "kenoy has very little impact on what an opposing tight end does(good or bad)." because its pretty obvious the team kenoy is on improves against the tight end.
I'm saying broad and specious arguments, like the one laughably presented in this article, are the type of thing that impress gullible knuckleheads, such as yourself.

[Pat Bowlen]

I'm not saying you're wrong, but that's a pretty weak argument for Kenoy.

[yavoon]

I'm saying broad and specious arguments, like the one laughably presented in this article, are the type of thing that impress gullible knuckleheads, such as yourself.

for it to be specious u must actually propose that the correlation is infact untrue. not merely say "this is the type of statement that is broad and could be untrue." u instead have to say like I ponited out earlier that "kenoy kennedy has very little impact on the performance of the other teams tight ends." because obviously if he had a large impact and we see this correlation of how a team does vs a tight end most of the credit would goto kennoy.

I know all the cliche donkey's here want to say, I'm not interested in colloquial logic.

[yavoon]

I'm not saying you're wrong, but that's a pretty weak argument for Kenoy.

why? about the same LB's. same d coordinators. same schemes. one year detroit is bad, detroit signs kenoy detroit is now the best(by a significant margin). denver is #2 last year. gets BETTER on defense(no more useless walls, dont have to play roc, much better dline) now has faster/better linebackers kenoy is gone now they are 15th against tight ends.

its a pretty tight correlation, and certainly is going to stand up against "but mike told me kennoy can only hit ppl hard!"

[Pat Bowlen]

How is Detroit doing against runningbacks and wide receivers?

[yavoon]

How is Detroit doing against runningbacks and wide receivers?

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamdef.php

[Play2win]

We are a MUCH Stronger PASS DEFENSE and COVERAGE team, just by the simple fact that we no longer have neither DELTHA nor KENNEDY on our team. End of story.

[yavoon]

We are a MUCH Stronger PASS DEFENSE and COVERAGE team, just by the simple fact that we no longer have neither DELTHA nor KENNEDY on our team. End of story.

well I wasn't going to believe u. but then again u did use caps....

[maven]

Kenoy Kennedy is the best strong safety in the league. If you don’t want to take my word for it, just take a look at Detroit’s defensive DVOA, No. 1 against tight ends, the position the strong safety usually covers. Last year, when Kennedy was in Denver, Detroit was terrible against tight ends, and Denver was No. 2 in the league.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/2005/11/03/ramblings/every-play-counts/3150/


I like this kind of talk. Can you say 3rd round comp pick!

[yavoon]

just thot I'd put this in too:

Bears at Saints: Poor Kyle Orton. The Bears are winning games, but every week presents another challenge for the often-overmatched rookie. How bad is it? He's thrown just six touchdowns, been sacked 21 times, completed just 55.3 percent of his passes and has an efficiency rating of just 65.5. Keep the sack total; take away a touchdown; shave three points off his completion percentage and 2.5 more off his rating, and his numbers would actually be as bad as Michael Vick's.

[DarkHorse30]

I like this kind of talk. Can you say 3rd round comp pick!

Good call.

[Hogan11]

We are a MUCH Stronger PASS DEFENSE and COVERAGE team, just by the simple fact that we no longer have neither DELTHA nor KENNEDY on our team. End of story.

Yeah......Fergy is really solid back there ::)

[eddie mac]

Who have Detroit played so far?? What great tight-ends has Kenoy had to cover?? Then compare that to who Denver have played and which tight-ends they've faced. 3 of the best in the damn league. This thread is pure horse-****.

[Ray Finkle]

you can make stats "reveal" anything you want to....look at Jeter, he wins a gold glove but yet his range factor is horrible...Detriot has played:
-GREEN BAY PACKERS
-Chicago Bears
-Tampa Bay Buccaneers
-BALTIMORE RAVENS
-CAROLINA PANTHERS
-Cleveland Browns
-and the Bears again....

Other then Bubba Franks who got hurt that first game, what TE of value have they played against. Heap is injured and has poo stick QB's so that does factor either.

The Broncos have played against the following TE's:
-McMichael
-Gates
-Gonzo
-Brady...well he sucks
-Cooley
-Shockey
-Smith

All except Brady are top 15, if not the top 10 of the league...

[eddie mac]

You forgot to mention N England's threesome. Apart from Crumpler we've faced every tight-end worth talking about.

[Ray Finkle]

You forgot to mention N England's threesome. Apart from Crumpler we've faced every tight-end worth talking about.

crap....thanks, I did that off the top of my head and new I forgot someone....

[Atlas]

I read Kenedy was having a strong year in Detroit. He had a good year for Denver last year. Good for him he is a nice guy. I'm still glad he is gone however.

[2KBack]

you can make stats "reveal" anything you want to....look at Jeter, he wins a gold glove but yet his range factor is horrible...Detriot has played:
-GREEN BAY PACKERS
-Chicago Bears
-Tampa Bay Buccaneers
-BALTIMORE RAVENS
-CAROLINA PANTHERS
-Cleveland Browns
-and the Bears again....

Other then Bubba Franks who got hurt that first game, what TE of value have they played against. Heap is injured and has poo stick QB's so that does factor either.

The Broncos have played against the following TE's:
-McMichael
-Gates
-Gonzo
-Brady...well he sucks
-Cooley
-Shockey
-Smith

All except Brady are top 15, if not the top 10 of the league...

You've excluded Ben Watson and Daniel Graham

[kirby33]

Ranking kennedys competition in order by stats

1.) Franks(packers) 18th overall
2.) Smith(tampa bay) 21st overall
3.) Clark(bears) 22cd overall
4.) Mangnum(Carolina) 28th overall

That is quite a list, that will get you to the pro bowl. By the way Champ covered tony g last year in both games, and the ran over under on gates, he had bottom protection. My analysis, that article is a joke

[DomCasual]

why? about the same LB's. same d coordinators. same schemes. one year detroit is bad, detroit signs kenoy detroit is now the best(by a significant margin). denver is #2 last year. gets BETTER on defense(no more useless walls, dont have to play roc, much better dline) now has faster/better linebackers kenoy is gone now they are 15th against tight ends.

its a pretty tight correlation, and certainly is going to stand up against "but mike told me kennoy can only hit ppl hard!"
Dude, I am starting to believe that you are either 1) a paid employee for these guys, or 2) Mr. Football Outsider's brother/nephew/dad.

[ludo21]

Dude, I am starting to believe that you are either 1) a paid employee for these guys, or 2) Mr. Football Outsider's brother/nephew/dad.


:loopy: ROFL!

I like when a guy starts out hot, then the big boys get ahold of the thread and counter it to make a right. Ha!

[yavoon]

Who have Detroit played so far?? What great tight-ends has Kenoy had to cover?? Then compare that to who Denver have played and which tight-ends they've faced. 3 of the best in the damn league. This thread is pure horse-****.

denver played the same tight ends last year when they were second. and detroit played similar tight ends last year as well when they sucked.

[yavoon]

you can make stats "reveal" anything you want to....look at Jeter, he wins a gold glove but yet his range factor is horrible...Detriot has played:
-GREEN BAY PACKERS
-Chicago Bears
-Tampa Bay Buccaneers
-BALTIMORE RAVENS
-CAROLINA PANTHERS
-Cleveland Browns
-and the Bears again....

Other then Bubba Franks who got hurt that first game, what TE of value have they played against. Heap is injured and has poo stick QB's so that does factor either.

The Broncos have played against the following TE's:
-McMichael
-Gates
-Gonzo
-Brady...well he sucks
-Cooley
-Shockey
-Smith

All except Brady are top 15, if not the top 10 of the league...

again this all compares out.

[yavoon]

Dude, I am starting to believe that you are either 1) a paid employee for these guys, or 2) Mr. Football Outsider's brother/nephew/dad.

I think they are one of the few online ppl who post interesting things. I share some of the interesting things I see. I only appear to like them more by the contrast of how little else is worth reading.

[yavoon]

:loopy: ROFL!

I like when a guy starts out hot, then the big boys get ahold of the thread and counter it to make a right. Ha!
go play in the kiddie corner.

[DarkHorse30]

Dude, I am starting to believe that you are either 1) a paid employee for these guys, or 2) Mr. Football Outsider's brother/nephew/dad.

not sure about FO's statcrunching, but Kennoy was an OK SS that could hit well, but his coverskills were hit and miss. Too much money to keep him, so Denver let him go......for a fairly high comp pick. In what way is this a bad deal?

[enjolras]

for it to be specious u must actually propose that the correlation is infact untrue. not merely say "this is the type of statement that is broad and could be untrue." u instead have to say like I ponited out earlier that "kenoy kennedy has very little impact on the performance of the other teams tight ends." because obviously if he had a large impact and we see this correlation of how a team does vs a tight end most of the credit would goto kennoy.

I know all the cliche donkey's here want to say, I'm not interested in colloquial logic.

Actually your exactly opposite (and thus wrong). In this case the burden is on the article writer (or defenders) to show that there is causality and not merely correlation.

I'm to lazy to look this up, but the very stats being used are absolutely invalid. Your looking at league rank, which is interesting, but has no validity when compared to previous years. It entirely conceivable that Denvers TE coverage is better than last year, but their overall rank is lower because other teams have improved that much more. I have no idea if that is the case or not, but you certainly need to bring out hard statistics to really show anything useful.

I would suspect that any slippage in TE coverage for Denver is more attributable to the very aggresive blizting schemes they've used much of this year. That has left TE's 1 on 1 against linebackers and safeties which likely means the tight end is being used a bit more by opposing offenses. No amount of Kenoy Kennedy would change that.

[yavoon]

Actually your exactly opposite (and thus wrong). In this case the burden is on the article writer (or defenders) to show that there is causality and not merely correlation.

I'm to lazy to look this up, but the very stats being used are absolutely invalid. Your looking at league rank, which is interesting, but has no validity when compared to previous years. It entirely conceivable that Denvers TE coverage is better than last year, but their overall rank is lower because other teams have improved that much more. I have no idea if that is the case or not, but you certainly need to bring out hard statistics to really show anything useful.

I would suspect that any slippage in TE coverage for Denver is more attributable to the very aggresive blizting schemes they've used much of this year. That has left TE's 1 on 1 against linebackers and safeties which likely means the tight end is being used a bit more by opposing offenses. No amount of Kenoy Kennedy would change that.

not looking at league rank, lookint at dvoa vs tight ends. nice to see someone who has never visited outsiders or knows much of anything about them just posts some longwinded response.

and the article did present its case. and in statistics causation is determined by interpretation not the statistics themselves. statistics can only tell u correlation. not to blow anyones mind here but statistics require interpretation. I posted this because it was interesting not because I thought it was absolutely true. Sure there are qualitatively excuses u can make for why this isnt true. And u've certainly made a better effort then the "lozl didnt u know kenoy can't cover" ppl.

but in the end qualitative or anecdotal examples fall well short of rigorous analysis.

[GreatBronco16]

denver played the same tight ends last year when they were second. and detroit played similar tight ends last year as well when they sucked.


Really? Through the list up of the TEs that Denver and Detroit faced last year. Then you will have to factor out the TEs that Bailey covered instead of Kenoy. Also, you will have to find out exactly which TEs that Kenoy covered by himself when he was with Denver.

[yavoon]

Really? Through the list up of the TEs that Denver and Detroit faced last year. Then you will have to factor out the TEs that Bailey covered instead of Kenoy. Also, you will have to find out exactly which TEs that Kenoy covered by himself when he was with Denver.

and if u wanted u'd have to factor in how kenoy affects the run or how he is blitzing or any # of a million things. and hey lets factor in blitzes and was kenoy in zone or man? there's a ton of things u COULD factor in, nearly endless. u could always come back and say "but what about the density altitude! and we all know kenoy is allergic to a pollen grown in south florida!"

I like though how all this has to be done by the ppl already keeping statistics of EVERY PLAY IN THE NFL over the last 5 years and correlating them together. while the ppl who watch 2 games a weekend and quickly forget most things can just say stuff like "omg kenoy can't cover."

[watermock]

Well, as far as I'm concerned, Kenoy sucked in coverage...absolutely sucked, till last year when for some reason, he improved dramatically. He was the top S FA, and got paid more than we had room for, I guess. I'll say it again...while it's the safety's job to punish across the middle, the pussication of the NFL has made the likelyhood of a penalty and/or fine has never been greater for hard hitters. Kenoy having a bullseye on his helmet certainly played a part in not matching Detroit's offer. Lynch, while crafty and taking correct angles, looks even a step slower this year, and Fergy isn't any speed demon...or hitter...but my opinion is that the S of the future HAS to be able to cover...not just be the last line of defense...in addition to the rule changes, the rediculous helmet to helmet rule that intentional for not, it's a PF, not to mention the fact defenses see tons more 3, 4, even nintendo WR sets, you have to have a Safety that can match up in coverage.

Fergy has dissapointed me somewhat, and Lynch, while a wiley old vet, the fact is, he's still OLD. I love the guy, he gives 110% and leadership, but is certainly a liability in coverage. Safety is a huge need in this draft. Maybe Cox can develop as well, he's looked good IMO. I am positive he's more than 200 lbs. He looks almost as big as Gold before he left. Gold has added some thickness and might be a legitimate 225 now. He almost looks like a LB, not a S playing LB. I don't know what the S crop looks like, but we certainly need at least one premium one, that can man up and cover a multiple WR set. I would love to snag Ed Reed if hits FA, but I doubt they let that happen...they will let Ray Ray go first, who is a shell of his former self. If Ray Ray holds out, he's going to find himself on the street shocked by lack of interest for his mega-deal he thinks he's worth...100 million signing bonus...put the pipe down Ray Ray...but first, the knife.

[Broncoman13]

are u saying that kenoy was involved minimally in the coverage of the tight end in denver AND in detroit? its all well and good to say "haha u have to watch the game." but I think if u want to disagree then REALLY disagree, come out and say "kenoy has very little impact on what an opposing tight end does(good or bad)." because its pretty obvious the team kenoy is on improves against the tight end.


Dude, Come on!

Denver has faced, Randy McMichael, Antonio Gates, Tony Gonzalez, Jeremy Shockey, L.J. Smith, Chris Cooley, and Kyle Brady? The only person or team on that list that doesn't use their TE's often is Brady and the Jags. The other 7 are guys that are not only in TE friendly offenses, but amongst the best in the league to begin with. You certainly can't argue with Gonzo, Gates, and Shockey being the top 3!!!

Now, lets take a look at the Lions TE competition.

Green Bay w/ Bubba Franks, but he went down with an injury still had like 30 yards.
Chicago with the elite Des Clark.
TB w/rookie Alex Smith.
Balt w/a talented Todd Heap (2 catches, 54 yards and a TD)
Carolina w/ I don't know who at TE???
Cleveland w/a couple of nobodies.
Chicago once again.

So they've faced Des Clark x2, Alex Smith, and injured Bubba Franks, rookie Alex Smith, a couple nobodies from Cleveland, all world Panther's TE (can you name him?) Mangum perhaps?, and a good, talented TE without shiat at QB in Todd Heap.

Okay, now I understand how you could say that Kennedy makes such a big difference.

TJ, I want rep points back so that everybody can see how dumb Yavoy's posts are!!!

[Broncoman13]

Oops, forgot to mention Daniel Graham and Ben Watson for the Pats... I'd put them below Todd Heap but above everybody else the Lions have played!

[yavoon]

Dude, Come on!

Denver has faced, Randy McMichael, Antonio Gates, Tony Gonzalez, Jeremy Shockey, L.J. Smith, Chris Cooley, and Kyle Brady? The only person or team on that list that doesn't use their TE's often is Brady and the Jags. The other 7 are guys that are not only in TE friendly offenses, but amongst the best in the league to begin with. You certainly can't argue with Gonzo, Gates, and Shockey being the top 3!!!

Now, lets take a look at the Lions TE competition.

Green Bay w/ Bubba Franks, but he went down with an injury still had like 30 yards.
Chicago with the elite Des Clark.
TB w/rookie Alex Smith.
Balt w/a talented Todd Heap (2 catches, 54 yards and a TD)
Carolina w/ I don't know who at TE???
Cleveland w/a couple of nobodies.
Chicago once again.

So they've faced Des Clark x2, Alex Smith, and injured Bubba Franks, rookie Alex Smith, a couple nobodies from Cleveland, all world Panther's TE (can you name him?) Mangum perhaps?, and a good, talented TE without shiat at QB in Todd Heap.

Okay, now I understand how you could say that Kennedy makes such a big difference.

TJ, I want rep points back so that everybody can see how dumb Yavoy's posts are!!!

denver faced a lot of those tight ends last year and was second. detroit faced a lot of the same te's as well and they were bad now they are good.

u can't explain away the dvoa shift like that. I've already posted this, obviously u dont read. consequently tho both times I've replied to this type of post the poster has been triumphant in how well they proved me wrong.

[Broncoman13]

denver faced a lot of those tight ends last year and was second. detroit faced a lot of the same te's as well and they were bad now they are good.

u can't explain away the dvoa shift like that. I've already posted this, obviously u dont read. consequently tho both times I've replied to this type of post the poster has been triumphant in how well they proved me wrong.

How can you say that we both faced the same caliber TE's last year when we have Gonzo and Gates in our division...thus we have to play them twice, whereas the Lions don't have to play them more than once.....which they did not last year!

As far as proving you wrong, I could care less, your the village idiot and proving you wrong doesn't even warrant a feather in the cap anymore!

[Drek]

What the hell people? Why are you bad mouthing Kennedy? He's playing for a non-SB contender NFC team. If anything we should be spreading PRO Kennedy propganda, hoping he'll net us at least a 4th, maybe even a 3rd rounder in compensation. :D

Seriously though, yeah, dumb article. Kennedy = BAD cover guy.

[yavoon]

How can you say that we both faced the same caliber TE's last year when we have Gonzo and Gates in our division...thus we have to play them twice, whereas the Lions don't have to play them more than once.....which they did not last year!

As far as proving you wrong, I could care less, your the village idiot and proving you wrong doesn't even warrant a feather in the cap anymore!

no what I"m saying is denver last year also faced good tight ends(ie the ones in the afc west). and detroit last year played relatively worse TE's(ie their division). BUT since denver is worse this year than last and detroit is far better this year than last the correlation works.

I know this isnt like A+B logic but its not too terribly hard. it is unnecessary for denver/detroit to play identical tight ends, it is only necessary for old denver and new denver to be somewhere near each other and old detroit and new detroit to likewise be near each other

should I now make some flame about how easy it is to own ****ing newbies over here who can't understand simple rules of logic? or should I not?

[Rock Chalk]

no what I"m saying is denver last year also faced good tight ends(ie the ones in the afc west). and detroit last year played relatively worse TE's(ie their division). BUT since denver is worse this year than last and detroit is far better this year than last the correlation works.

I know this isnt like A+B logic but its not too terribly hard. it is unnecessary for denver/detroit to play identical tight ends, it is only necessary for old denver and new denver to be somewhere near each other and old detroit and new detroit to likewise be near each other

should I now make some flame about how easy it is to own ****ing newbies over here who can't understand simple rules of logic? or should I not?
Detroit sucks, Denver doesn't. Who cares about how well the safety is doing?

Sam Brandon is covering the TEs more often than not in our games anyway because of the "Big Nickle" and he does a fine job, at least, fine enough for Denver to be 6-2. Its not as if TEs have just murdered us this year.

You are fishing and there just aint any fish. Go bury your head in some more stats though.

[Broncoman13]

denver faced a lot of those tight ends last year and was second. detroit faced a lot of the same te's as well and they were bad now they are good.

The fact that Detroit hasn't played the Giants, Chargers, Chiefs, Skins, Eagles, Dolphins, or Patriots this year obviously proves your point that b/c they were bad last year they are improved this year. They haven't played anybody dipshiat... try to keep up!

[Broncoman13]

no what I"m saying is denver last year also faced good tight ends(ie the ones in the afc west). and detroit last year played relatively worse TE's(ie their division). BUT since denver is worse this year than last and detroit is far better this year than last the correlation works.

I know this isnt like A+B logic but its not too terribly hard. it is unnecessary for denver/detroit to play identical tight ends, it is only necessary for old denver and new denver to be somewhere near each other and old detroit and new detroit to likewise be near each other

should I now make some flame about how easy it is to own ****ing newbies over here who can't understand simple rules of logic? or should I not?


Who's the newbie?

[yavoon]

Detroit sucks, Denver doesn't. Who cares about how well the safety is doing?

Sam Brandon is covering the TEs more often than not in our games anyway because of the "Big Nickle" and he does a fine job, at least, fine enough for Denver to be 6-2. Its not as if TEs have just murdered us this year.

You are fishing and there just aint any fish. Go bury your head in some more stats though.

while I agree interest in statistical analysis is lacking on this forum when compared to say really bad flaming and bandwagoning. this does interest me so I post it. whats so wrong w/ that? and who cares about football, I mean its just a game right? stupid argument captain.

[yavoon]

The fact that Detroit hasn't played the Giants, Chargers, Chiefs, Skins, Eagles, Dolphins, or Patriots this year obviously proves your point that b/c they were bad last year they are improved this year. They haven't played anybody dipshiat... try to keep up!

like I said, it is unnecessary for the logic for denver and detroit to play identical opponents. I've already explained it, u've obviously spent zero time trying to understand why. so to answer ur post below

ur the ****ing newbie.

[Broncoman13]

like I said, it is unnecessary for the logic for denver and detroit to play identical opponents. I've already explained it, u've obviously spent zero time trying to understand why. so to answer ur post below

ur the ****ing newbie.


Oh, let me see if I understand this correctly. Just b/c Denver has played the top tier TE's, not just in the AFC West, but in the entire NFL and Detroit has played the bottom feeders in terms of talent..... we shoudl overlook that.

I'll be the newbie I guess b/c your logic is useless to me!

[yavoon]

Oh, let me see if I understand this correctly. Just b/c Denver has played the top tier TE's, not just in the AFC West, but in the entire NFL and Detroit has played the bottom feeders in terms of talent..... we shoudl overlook that.

I'll be the newbie I guess b/c your logic is useless to me!

its unnecessary yes. remember we're not saying that detroit covers tight ends better than denver we are saying kenoy impacts a teams ability to cover te's.

ur gna get it soon, I can feel it.

[Rock Chalk]

while I agree interest in statistical analysis is lacking on this forum when compared to say really bad flaming and bandwagoning. this does interest me so I post it. whats so wrong w/ that? and who cares about football, I mean its just a game right? stupid argument captain.
statistical analysis is fine, the only problem is that all you ever do is quote statistics and fail to provide any analysis.

For a fair comparison, you have to go see every play Kennedy covers the TE and how he does, then compare it to Ferguson and every play he covers the TE and how he does. Then you have to take ONLY the TEs that both have covered.

Thats analysis.

What you are doing is just posting stats. There is no analysis about that.

[yavoon]

statistical analysis is fine, the only problem is that all you ever do is quote statistics and fail to provide any analysis.

For a fair comparison, you have to go see every play Kennedy covers the TE and how he does, then compare it to Ferguson and every play he covers the TE and how he does. Then you have to take ONLY the TEs that both have covered.

Thats analysis.

What you are doing is just posting stats. There is no analysis about that.

haha if thats the qualification for analysis then no1 has ever done analysis in the history of written football. another thing in statistics I feel this forum doesn't quite understand is the idea of correlation using the dominant factors. U have to remember statistics are practical, if we can get to a 90% or 95% answer 500 times faster than we can get to a 98% answer we want to know what the 90% answer is.

I also think its laughable that u(like I pointed out earlier) are holding the outsiders to some absurd level of analysis when they do 10-20 times more indepth analysis than any other person on the internet. including the yokels here who often call each others crap analysis.

[Drek]

while I agree interest in statistical analysis is lacking on this forum when compared to say really bad flaming and bandwagoning. this does interest me so I post it. whats so wrong w/ that? and who cares about football, I mean its just a game right? stupid argument captain. You can hold up right there good budy, I've been a serious SABR nut for years with baseball, but you're jumping to an innacurate conclusion.

Just because Team A's TE defense is up from last year and Team B's TE defense is down from last year doesn't mean the lone player changed is the reason. This is the problem many stat nuts have in baseball, they trust the numbers TOO MUCH. Its like someone assuming that Jeff Bagwell was a poor power hitter based on his numbers from AAA back in the day, despite Lowell having a larger OF and higher walls than almost all other minor league parks at the time. It lead to some inaccurate conclusions by the Red Sox FO at the time, who then traded him. He went on to be a HOF caliber 1B for the Astros. Many of us Red Sox fans knew we lost a talent in Bagwell because we watched him play and knew how good he really was. All us Broncos fans know this article is bunk because we watched the games last year, Kennedy rarely covered TEs. When we faced premier TEs Champ played on them as much as anyone else.

Advanced statistical analysis does not apply well to the NFL on a player by player basis, there's too much random fluctuation in the sport as well as heavy reliance on others. On a team by team basis it can work quite well, but when you try narrowing it beyond that scope it starts to get sketchy at best.

[yavoon]

You can hold up right there good budy, I've been a serious SABR nut for years with baseball, but you're jumping to an innacurate conclusion.

Just because Team A's TE defense is up from last year and Team B's TE defense is down from last year doesn't mean the lone player changed is the reason. This is the problem many stat nuts have in baseball, they trust the numbers TOO MUCH. Its like someone assuming that Jeff Bagwell was a poor power hitter based on his numbers from AAA back in the day, despite Lowell having a larger OF and higher walls than almost all other minor league parks at the time. It lead to some inaccurate conclusions by the Red Sox FO at the time, who then traded him. He went on to be a HOF caliber 1B for the Astros. Many of us Red Sox fans knew we lost a talent in Bagwell because we watched him play and knew how good he really was. All us Broncos fans know this article is bunk because we watched the games last year, Kennedy rarely covered TEs. When we faced premier TEs Champ played on them as much as anyone else.

Advanced statistical analysis does not apply well to the NFL on a player by player basis, there's too much random fluctuation in the sport as well as heavy reliance on others. On a team by team basis it can work quite well, but when you try narrowing it beyond that scope it starts to get sketchy at best.

its not 100% guarenteed if thats what ur saying. but statistics isn't offering guarentees. also most of the things u talk about(like say the size of an outfield or the density of air in denver) can and often are covered for by statistics to some degree(ie footballoutsiders has a special team formula that considers denver's altitude).

its not really about "trusting the statistics too much" or some such inane crap, like I said earlier I dont necessarily believe this to be true(afterall its only one stat). I thot it was though interesting, thats why I posted it. the reason the thread has blown up is the typical "i dont understand logic, I dont understand statistics" ppl have come in and claimed glorious victory.

also just to point out specifically using anecdotes to disprove statistics is..ummm...bad. yah ok thanks.

[Ray Finkle]

its not 100% guarenteed if thats what ur saying. but statistics isn't offering guarentees. also most of the things u talk about(like say the size of an outfield or the density of air in denver) can and often are covered for by statistics to some degree(ie footballoutsiders has a special team formula that considers denver's altitude).

its not really about "trusting the statistics too much" or some such inane crap, like I said earlier I dont necessarily believe this to be true(afterall its only one stat). I thot it was though interesting, thats why I posted it. the reason the thread has blown up is the typical "i dont understand logic, I dont understand statistics" ppl have come in and claimed glorious victory.

also just to point out specifically using anecdotes to disprove statistics is..ummm...bad. yah ok thanks.


I didn't mean to imply that you didn't know stats by my post Yavoon. I meant simply that stats are like preceptions. One person can look at them one way, and another person can see something else.

[yavoon]

I didn't mean to imply that you didn't know stats by my post Yavoon. I meant simply that stats are like preceptions. One person can look at them one way, and another person can see something else.

sure. but they aren't limitless in their ability to be perceived. u can misuse stats like u can misuse nearly anything. take things out of context, isolate a stat away from other important correlary stats. U might misread stats by not understand which factors are the dominant ones driving the outcome. but in the end this is much less of a problem then ppl think.

[watermock]

Stats apply 5X more in baseball. When hitting, your the man...all alone...passed ball, easy...catcher error....wild pitch...on and on...the NFL is more like 22 ingrediants swirling around in gumbo, and the recipe changes each play with substitutions, injurys and different plays...it's 106 variables. Totally different than baseball. While football is organized mayhem, baseball is well structured...the variable is really only which hitter, and fast ball, breaking ball, slider, changeup ect. Baseball stats are incredibly more apt to provide answers than say...a passer rating...Elway had a average rating...was he an average QB?

[Broncoman13]

I guess, by your reasoning and judging by the stats the Atlanta Falcons have a better RB than the San Diego Chargers...they have more yards rushing as a team so it must be true.

[yavoon]

Stats apply 5X more in baseball. When hitting, your the man...all alone...passed ball, easy...catcher error....wild pitch...on and on...the NFL is more like 22 ingrediants swirling around in gumbo, and the recipe changes each play with substitutions, injurys and different plays...it's 106 variables. Totally different than baseball. While football is organized mayhem, baseball is well structured...the variable is really only which hitter, and fast ball, breaking ball, slider, changeup ect. Baseball stats are incredibly more apt to provide answers than say...a passer rating...Elway had a average rating...was he an average QB?

stats are easier to apply in baseball.

[yavoon]

I guess, by your reasoning and judging by the stats the Atlanta Falcons have a better RB than the San Diego Chargers...they have more yards rushing as a team so it must be true.

wow this is just awful. man I weep for our education system. if u wanted to translate it into running u'd ATLEAST first have to have a running back or atleast OL change hands between atlanta and san diego and THEN u wouldn't be comparing who is better but how that person affected the teams ability to run.

we need high school logic courses.

[Ray Finkle]

sure. but they aren't limitless in their ability to be perceived. u can misuse stats like u can misuse nearly anything. take things out of context, isolate a stat away from other important correlary stats. U might misread stats by not understand which factors are the dominant ones driving the outcome. but in the end this is much less of a problem then ppl think.


I am guessing you work or have worked with stats...good explanation.

[OrangeCrush2724]

I actually threw a party at my house when Kenoy left. Cluelss in zone, even worse in man.

[Drek]

its not 100% guarenteed if thats what ur saying. but statistics isn't offering guarentees. also most of the things u talk about(like say the size of an outfield or the density of air in denver) can and often are covered for by statistics to some degree(ie footballoutsiders has a special team formula that considers denver's altitude).

its not really about "trusting the statistics too much" or some such inane crap, like I said earlier I dont necessarily believe this to be true(afterall its only one stat). I thot it was though interesting, thats why I posted it. the reason the thread has blown up is the typical "i dont understand logic, I dont understand statistics" ppl have come in and claimed glorious victory.

also just to point out specifically using anecdotes to disprove statistics is..ummm...bad. yah ok thanks.

This thread wasn't blown out of proportion, people said their piece, that they thought the article as bull****, you defended it, so people argued their points. Anyone who watched the Broncos play last year knows that Kennedy wasn't covering TEs consistantly. You don't need to numerically break it down to know right there that the Football Outsiders were trying to seem smart without really even checking the facts and breaking the stats down appropriately themselves. Thats where people have a problem. If you tried a similar arguement in SABR circles you'd get laughed at so robustly that you'd be ashamed to show your face again, because statistical analysis of baseball is significantly beyond football. This article is on par with saying the difference between the Sox loosing to the Yankees in the ALCS in 2003 and winning the World Series in 2004 was Mark Bellhorn, because he was a key contributor and a new addition. Ignoring the other factors (like the additions of Curt Schilling and Keith Foulke), and just grabbing onto one aparent reason isn't good statistical analysis, its jumping to a conclusion well before you've finished your homework, and thats what the Football Outsiders did with this article.

As for anecdotes, well, that was for those less statistically inclined folk you mentioned. Also, its not an anecdote, its an example, because its factually backed, partially by strong statistical analysis done retroactively that do include park factors (most pro level stat analysis in baseball at the time did not, hence the example being valid).

[DarkHorse30]

Stats apply 5X more in baseball. When hitting, your the man...all alone...passed ball, easy...catcher error....wild pitch...on and on...the NFL is more like 22 ingrediants swirling around in gumbo, and the recipe changes each play with substitutions, injurys and different plays...it's 106 variables. Totally different than baseball. While football is organized mayhem, baseball is well structured...the variable is really only which hitter, and fast ball, breaking ball, slider, changeup ect. Baseball stats are incredibly more apt to provide answers than say...a passer rating...Elway had a average rating...was he an average QB?

Bingo. The FO guy wants to be the Bill James of football....yet he lacks a clue, and is constantly apologizing for his ranks.

My question is....who is more stupid: The FO guy, or the geeks that follow him?

[Broncoman13]

wow this is just awful. man I weep for our education system. if u wanted to translate it into running u'd ATLEAST first have to have a running back or atleast OL change hands between atlanta and san diego and THEN u wouldn't be comparing who is better but how that person affected the teams ability to run.

we need high school logic courses.


Yet in your logic you have a # as in TE's receiving yardage. In my example you have a #, rushing yards. In your example you do not name a single TE. In my example I do not name a single RB. Your conclusion, through your stats, is that Kennoy must be better b/c of better stats. I conclude, through the rushing stats, that Atlanta must have a better RB than the Chargers.

We all know my example is crap b/c you only get half the picture when looking at the total number of yards rushing. Just like your example is crap b/c you don't take into account all the factors surrounding the play of both defenses, let alone the safties themselves.

[yavoon]

This thread wasn't blown out of proportion, people said their piece, that they thought the article as bull****, you defended it, so people argued their points. Anyone who watched the Broncos play last year knows that Kennedy wasn't covering TEs consistantly. You don't need to numerically break it down to know right there that the Football Outsiders were trying to seem smart without really even checking the facts and breaking the stats down appropriately themselves. Thats where people have a problem. If you tried a similar arguement in SABR circles you'd get laughed at so robustly that you'd be ashamed to show your face again, because statistical analysis of baseball is significantly beyond football. This article is on par with saying the difference between the Sox loosing to the Yankees in the ALCS in 2003 and winning the World Series in 2004 was Mark Bellhorn, because he was a key contributor and a new addition. Ignoring the other factors (like the additions of Curt Schilling and Keith Foulke), and just grabbing onto one aparent reason isn't good statistical analysis, its jumping to a conclusion well before you've finished your homework, and thats what the Football Outsiders did with this article.

As for anecdotes, well, that was for those less statistically inclined folk you mentioned. Also, its not an anecdote, its an example, because its factually backed, partially by strong statistical analysis done retroactively that do include park factors (most pro level stat analysis in baseball at the time did not, hence the example being valid).

thats the thing w/ kennedy though is not much else changed, also we aren't saying something as sweeping as "why this team wins or that team." we are taking one specific area(covering the tight end). I infact addressed that there were relatively few additions and infact the broncos in theory got gold(fast linebacker and a better dline, and supposedly a more cover oriented safety in ferguson) and ended up worse.

an example is an anecdote, no statistic will get u 100% just because there exists a bagwell or any other person that u missed. the point of statistics isnt to divine gospel its to throw out an effective net. statistics want to get most of the answers right, not all.

[Rock Chalk]

haha if thats the qualification for analysis then no1 has ever done analysis in the history of written football. another thing in statistics I feel this forum doesn't quite understand is the idea of correlation using the dominant factors. U have to remember statistics are practical, if we can get to a 90% or 95% answer 500 times faster than we can get to a 98% answer we want to know what the 90% answer is.

I also think its laughable that u(like I pointed out earlier) are holding the outsiders to some absurd level of analysis when they do 10-20 times more indepth analysis than any other person on the internet. including the yokels here who often call each others crap analysis.
OK, how many of the plays ran this year has Kenoy covered the TE? How many has Ferguson? Have you even got that far yet or are you just going on the assumption teh SS is supposed to cover the TE and therefore always does?

Further, how have those same TEs faced by Kenoy and Ferguson fared against other SSs? That's my point. You have not done a single bit of analysis, all you have done is taken some general stats and quoted them as fact. Kenoy has not covered the TE on every play and Ferguson has hardly EVER covered the TE.

DJ Williams and Sam Brandon are doing the bulk of the TE coverage responsibilities in our scheme. While Detroit may run a 4-3 scheme, they do not run it the same way and each person because of different talent levels and personell, have different responsibilities. While SS may be the traditional role to cover the TE, more and more you are seing the SLB cover TE's because of the speed of the LB corps in today's NFL.

So if you want an analysis on how we are doing against TE's as a team compared to how Detroit is doing against TEs as a team, you have a point with the statistics that you have used but you have no made one case, not a single one, for Kennedy > Ferguson.

[yavoon]

Yet in your logic you have a # as in TE's receiving yardage. In my example you have a #, rushing yards. In your example you do not name a single TE. In my example I do not name a single RB. Your conclusion, through your stats, is that Kennoy must be better b/c of better stats. I conclude, through the rushing stats, that Atlanta must have a better RB than the Chargers.

We all know my example is crap b/c you only get half the picture when looking at the total number of yards rushing. Just like your example is crap b/c you don't take into account all the factors surrounding the play of both defenses, let alone the safties themselves.

Your conclusion, through your stats, is that Kennoy must be better b/c of better stats. I conclude, through the rushing stats, that Atlanta must have a better RB than the Chargers.


that DOESN'T seem fishy to u? wow. I mean besides the fact that in the first sentence u have one thing and the second sentence has two. where to even betgin? I'm smiling pretty big over here, not laughting, but smiling. good stuff.

[Bronco LB 59]

we need high school logic courses.

You need a 3rd grade grammar course.

[yavoon]

OK, how many of the plays ran this year has Kenoy covered the TE? How many has Ferguson? Have you even got that far yet or are you just going on the assumption teh SS is supposed to cover the TE and therefore always does?

Further, how have those same TEs faced by Kenoy and Ferguson fared against other SSs? That's my point. You have not done a single bit of analysis, all you have done is taken some general stats and quoted them as fact. Kenoy has not covered the TE on every play and Ferguson has hardly EVER covered the TE.

DJ Williams and Sam Brandon are doing the bulk of the TE coverage responsibilities in our scheme. While Detroit may run a 4-3 scheme, they do not run it the same way and each person because of different talent levels and personell, have different responsibilities. While SS may be the traditional role to cover the TE, more and more you are seing the SLB cover TE's because of the speed of the LB corps in today's NFL.

So if you want an analysis on how we are doing against TE's as a team compared to how Detroit is doing against TEs as a team, you have a point with the statistics that you have used but you have no made one case, not a single one, for Kennedy > Ferguson.


same exact argument u made last time only reworded? u want me to go and do 50 times more research even though outsiders already does massively more than anyone else? at what multiple of effort over other ppl will u be satisfied w/? if u say "kenoy sucks in coverage" and I come out w/ a huge sheet of data and film will u say "yah but u didnt take into account the different defensive lines and playcalling during the actual tight end receptions.

god.

[yavoon]

You need a 3rd grade grammar course.

so u can't understand basic rules of logic, any kind of application of statistics and u dont really know what outsiders is about or what they do.

BUT, since I abbreviate obviously u r a superior person.

[Rock Chalk]

same exact argument u made last time only reworded? u want me to go and do 50 times more research even though outsiders already does massively more than anyone else? at what multiple of effort over other ppl will u be satisfied w/? if u say "kenoy sucks in coverage" and I come out w/ a huge sheet of data and film will u say "yah but u didnt take into account the different defensive lines and playcalling during the actual tight end receptions.

god.
Yes yavoon. Because the numbers you are using are based on the TEAMS performance against TEs man. 90% of our plays the SS is NOT covering the safety. Now I dont know what that number is on Detroit's system, but its not the same here.

As a comparitive analysis, you suck. Seriously. Detroit has handled their TEs better than Denver has, but Kennedy has not done better than Ferguson against TEs and until you go do that research, you cannot prove it with your meager attempt to statistics us to death.

You are saying you dont want to do all the research that is involved in seeinig how well each one does but yet you are in here defending the DVOA which does take all that **** into account when doing its statistical analysis?

Like I said, you havent done anything but compare how Detroit has done against crap TEs to What Denver has done against some fo the best TEs. That is it, nothing more.

[Broncoman13]

Your conclusion, through your stats, is that Kennoy must be better b/c of better stats. I conclude, through the rushing stats, that Atlanta must have a better RB than the Chargers.


that DOESN'T seem fishy to u? wow. I mean besides the fact that in the first sentence u have one thing and the second sentence has two. where to even betgin? I'm smiling pretty big over here, not laughting, but smiling. good stuff.


That's the whole point you fool! My example was made to be stupid and fishy yet it makes as much sense as yours. If you want to keep your village idiot card be my guest, I'm not trying to talk you out of it... As for laughing and smiling... you hit that one on the head! There's plenty of laughing going on but it's at your expense and you can't even understand why!

As for dealing with stats, I deal with them plenty. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that the stats I use and the methods used to form my conclusions would blow anything you use out of the water. But, then again my uses are more practical and rely on facts, something you apparently aren't willing to consider.

[yavoon]

Yes yavoon. Because the numbers you are using are based on the TEAMS performance against TEs man. 90% of our plays the SS is NOT covering the safety. Now I dont know what that number is on Detroit's system, but its not the same here.

As a comparitive analysis, you suck. Seriously. Detroit has handled their TEs better than Denver has, but Kennedy has not done better than Ferguson against TEs and until you go do that research, you cannot prove it with your meager attempt to statistics us to death.

You are saying you dont want to do all the research that is involved in seeinig how well each one does but yet you are in here defending the DVOA which does take all that **** into account when doing its statistical analysis?

Like I said, you havent done anything but compare how Detroit has done against crap TEs to What Denver has done against some fo the best TEs. That is it, nothing more.

actually the comparison is how denver did last year w/ kenoy to this year w/o and how detroit did last year w/o kenoy to this year w/o.

atleast understand what is being compared for the love of god.

[yavoon]

That's the whole point you fool! My example was made to be stupid and fishy yet it makes as much sense as yours. If you want to keep your village idiot card be my guest, I'm not trying to talk you out of it... As for laughing and smiling... you hit that one on the head! There's plenty of laughing going on but it's at your expense and you can't even understand why!

As for dealing with stats, I deal with them plenty. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that the stats I use and the methods used to form my conclusions would blow anything you use out of the water. But, then again my uses are more practical and rely on facts, something you apparently aren't willing to consider.

ur lying. also ur being very blustery. which probably goes hand in hand w/ lying.

[yavoon]

Maybe it's just loyalty to my alma-mater, but I'll take the first-team All-Pro safety tandem - two years running:

SS Michael Lewis - PHIL (Colorado)
FS Ed Reed - BALT (The P-U)


=]

[BroncoBuff]

Kenoy Kennedy is the best strong safety in the league.
Maybe it's just loyalty to my alma-mater, but I'll take the first-team All-Pro safety tandem:

SS Michael Lewis - PHIL (Colorado)
FS Ed Reed - BALT (The P-U)

[Broncoman13]

actually the comparison is how denver did last year w/ kenoy to this year w/o and how detroit did last year w/o kenoy to this year w/o.

atleast understand what is being compared for the love of god.


I don't recall facing the likes of Jeremy Shockey, L.J. Smith, Chris Cooley, or Daniel Graham last year.

Honestly, you could have made a better arguement by comparing the Dolphins stats vs TE's. Afterall, they have our starting SAM from last year.

[yavoon]

I don't recall facing the likes of Jeremy Shockey, L.J. Smith, Chris Cooley, or Daniel Graham last year.

Honestly, you could have made a better arguement by comparing the Dolphins stats vs TE's. Afterall, they have our starting SAM from last year.

honestly u couldn't understand statistics or whats really being compared if someone held a shotgun to ur testicles. give up, go away.

[Broncoman13]

ur lying. also ur being very blustery. which probably goes hand in hand w/ lying.


I'm lying... so you think I'm gonna sit here and say that Warrick Dunn or TJ Duckett is a better RB than Tomlinson??? I won't sit here and proclaim myself as the know-all, end-all in terms of football talent..... but I'm pretty sure I would've got that one right!

[Bronco LB 59]

so u can't understand basic rules of logic, any kind of application of statistics and u dont really know what outsiders is about or what they do.

BUT, since I abbreviate obviously u r a superior person.

It has nothing to do with me being a superior person. I usually skip over your posts because you are too lazy to use the cap locks key, spell out words entirely or use commas when appropriate.

I have the last five copies of Baseball Prospectus. I am on the Pro Football Outsiders' e-mail list. I appreciate some of the work PFO do, but they aren't as cutting edge as the baseball movement. I haven't bought one of their books because everytime I pick one up at the bookstore, I am extremely disapointed in the content. Aaron Schatz used to write a pop culture column for Lycos. He doesn't strike me as a football genius even though he has good intentions.

Anyways, the Kenoy Kennedy DVOA link was just a short blurb in a long column about 32 NFL teams and you are acting like this guy got his Ph.D doing a journalistic essay on Kennedy's coverage abilities. The stat has some merit, but it doesn't tell the whole story.

[yavoon]

I'm lying... so you think I'm gonna sit here and say that Warrick Dunn or TJ Duckett is a better RB than Tomlinson??? I won't sit here and proclaim myself as the know-all, end-all in terms of football talent..... but I'm pretty sure I would've got that one right!

u can't even respond to posts correctly.

[Broncoman13]

honestly u couldn't understand statistics or whats really being compared if someone held a shotgun to ur testicles. give up, go away.


The problem with your stat is this. It does not include a branch of applied mathematics concerned with the collection and interpretation of quantitative data. Your stat is weak at best... you choose to defend it like it's your own. Whatever, suck off FO if you'd like. Again, the joke is on you genius.

[yavoon]

It has nothing to do with me being a superior person. I usually skip over your posts because you are too lazy to use the cap locks key, spell out words entirely or use commas when appropriate.

I have the last five copies of Baseball Prospectus. I am on the Pro Football Outsiders' e-mail list. I appreciate some of the work PFO do, but they aren't as cutting edge as the baseball movement. I haven't bought one of their books because everytime I pick one up at the bookstore, I am extremely disapointed in the content. Aaron Schatz used to write a pop culture column for Lycos. He doesn't strike me as a football genius even though he has good intentions.

Anyways, the Kenoy Kennedy DVOA link was just a short blurb in a long column about 32 NFL teams and you are acting like this guy got his Ph.D doing a journalistic essay on Kennedy's coverage abilities. The stat has some merit, but it doesn't tell the whole story.

ur write baseball is very far ahead, and aaron might be more a product of understanding what need isnt being filled than some massive genius. but it is still true that outsiders does massively more than anyone else in terms of football.

and yes of course one stat doesn't tell the whole god damn story. and yes it was from a blurb. I POSTED it because it was interesting to me. like I've said multiple times, not because I believe its true or that I on some level think its infallible.

[yavoon]

The problem with your stat is this. It does not include a branch of applied mathematics concerned with the collection and interpretation of quantitative data. Your stat is weak at best... you choose to defend it like it's your own. Whatever, suck off FO if you'd like. Again, the joke is on you genius.

statistics

n : a branch of applied mathematics concerned with the collection and interpretation of quantitative data and the use of probability theory to estimate population parameters


u forgot some of it.

[Broncoman13]

u can't even respond to posts correctly.


You said I was lying... what exactly am I lying about. Like I tell every other woman in my life, I don't do the mind reading thing, come out and say it!

[Broncoman13]

statistics

n : a branch of applied mathematics concerned with the collection and interpretation of quantitative data and the use of probability theory to estimate population parameters


u forgot some of it.

So you agree it's lacking! Again, I don't need you to admit your stat is weak. I already know it.

[Broncoman13]

ur write baseball is very far ahead, and aaron might be more a product of understanding what need isnt being filled than some massive genius. but it is still true that outsiders does massively more than anyone else in terms of football.

and yes of course one stat doesn't tell the whole god damn story. and yes it was from a blurb. I POSTED it because it was interesting to me. like I've said multiple times, not because I believe its true or that I on some level think its infallible.

What???

[yavoon]

You said I was lying... what exactly am I lying about. Like I tell every other woman in my life, I don't do the mind reading thing, come out and say it!

might help to check which post I responded to.

[yavoon]

What???

was the sentence especially confusing? the word infallible means that it is impossible to be wrong.

[DomCasual]

You guys are wasting your time. Trying to convince yavoon on this issue is like trying to convince a mom that her son is ugly. You can use all the logic in the world, but at the end of the day, the kid is one handsome dawg.

[Broncoman13]

might help to check which post I responded to.


Dude you're a dumbshiat... either you're questioning whether I think that Atlanta has better RB's than the Chargers or you're questioning my use of PBM, EVM, and CAIV. Trust me when I tell you that the statistical analysis I use would blow your chickenshiat FO boys out of the water.

[Broncoman13]

was the sentence especially confusing? the word infallible means that it is impossible to be wrong.


You said earlier that Kennoy was the difference in a good and bad defense vs the TE's. Now you come back and post a BS disclaimer. Go back to sucking off the FO boys, you might just get a job this time around.

[yavoon]

Dude you're a dumbshiat... either you're questioning whether I think that Atlanta has better RB's than the Chargers or you're questioning my use of PBM, EVM, and CAIV. Trust me when I tell you that the statistical analysis I use would blow your chickenshiat FO boys out of the water.

isnt that the point though? I dont trust u. u've showed next to zero comprehension of anything. Hell u dont even understand the concept of replying to posts! I had to tell u to specifically look at which post I was replying to. I'm shocked u can tie ur shoes.

[yavoon]

You said earlier that Kennoy was the difference in a good and bad defense vs the TE's. Now you come back and post a BS disclaimer. Go back to sucking off the FO boys, you might just get a job this time around.

what I said earlier was a paste of what was on outsiders. I was defending the use of its logic. I've actually said atleast three times I dont believe it to really be the case and twice I can remember I've said that one statistic is not conclusive.

what I've FLAMED u for is not conclusions its ur rampant inability to understand even the base logic of the situation. got that? just to make sure u understand I flamed u because u r innately dumb, unintelligent, stupid, whatever. not because of the side u were taking.

[OrangeCrush2724]

We are arguing about Kenoy...how funny. :poke:

[FADERPROOF]

Kenoy Kennedy is the best strong safety in the league. If you don’t want to take my word for it, just take a look at Detroit’s defensive DVOA, No. 1 against tight ends, the position the strong safety usually covers. Last year, when Kennedy was in Denver, Detroit was terrible against tight ends, and Denver was No. 2 in the league.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/2005/11/03/ramblings/every-play-counts/3150/

I should ban you for this.

[BroncoBuff]

Who have Detroit played so far?? What great tight-ends has Kenoy had to cover?? Then compare that to who Denver have played and which tight-ends they've faced. 3 of the best in the damn league. This thread is pure horse-****.
The writer's thesis is just too simplistic. Maybe long, long ago, in a standard, traditional, old-fashioned galaxy far, far away -- in that Lou Saban, "line 'em up, boys", man-for-man, "sound off men" - 1 to 11 matchup era - you could link raw TE numbers directly to a strong safety. :flower: :blossom: :rainbow: . . . the seventies, man!

But that was a "Super Bowl XII" world gone by - a Billy Joe Dupree vs. Billy Thompson galaxy far, far away . . .

Problem is, football ain't in that galaxy no mo'.

Today there are so many different zones, brackets, man-up, max-protects, bump, chuck, incidental contact two-deep cover schemes, zone blitz, 'bring the house' - hell, I saw Ebenezer Ekuban cover a tight end a couppla weeks ago! Kind of hard to credit or debit Kenoy or Hit-Man - or even my man Michael Lewis with those results! For heaven's sake, the Bronco D lined up in a 9-2 alignment last week, dude! Knowitall

Plus, the writer - Michael David Smith - obviously didn't watch the games when he wrote: "Last year, when Kennedy was in Denver . . . Denver was No. 2 in the league."

If this guy had WATCHED THE GAMES, he'd know that it was CHAMP BAILEY who covered 'Antonio' Gonzales in the season-opener. THAT'S the point. His simplistic, old-fashioned SS=TE thinking went out back when Ditka, Reeves, Meredith and Garrison were raising hell on Saturday nights before road games!


Done.and.done. :homer:

[Finger Roll]

passing stats are often bogus. The Broncos are always in the lead this year in games which means teams will throw it alot more often.