Is Holding Still a Penalty?

[2KBack]

So this is the second straight game in Denver where offensive holding was seemingly never called. I'm not an expert on Line play, but I thought a saw a few blatant holds, on both sides. Is offensive holding a penalty of De-emphasis this year?

[Northman]

Yea, i was really pissed. the Pats were virtually tackling our defenders in the second half and nothing was being called. i hope Shanny sends some video to the league about that crap.

[Swedish Extrovert]

This game was horribly officiated.... bad calls and no calls - most went in the Pats favor.

[Rock Chalk]

Holding calls were the only things that I thought were bad. Denver was really sloppy early on and they are lucky the Pats weren't clicking yet because this game would have been a lot different.

[Swedish Extrovert]

I dont even care.... had we lost I would remmember them, but I seriously dont now.

[PatsWin2002]

Honestly, they probably let a lot of stuff go late in the game in the interest of time.

[Northman]

I dont even care.... had we lost I would remmember them, but I seriously dont now.


I still do cause we should have blown them out. a lot of the holding ( no calls ) happened on their big gains.

[Vegas_Bronco]

The refs were called by the commish and told to at least let the immaculate one - Brady have a few good stats so they could still give him the MVP- all politics.

I think the refs wanted the game to get over at some point so they just quit on the game. Good call slamming the BRADman with intentional grounding though.

It's over, we can relish in our win and lossed stats (flying low under the radar, until, wham! we's in Detroit and it's February).

[Moon§hiner]

I won't go so far as conspiracy, but I will say that I was yelling "holding" at the screen a few times in the last 2 drives by the pats.

[2KBack]

I'm not complaining about the officiating as a whole, though I did get sick of the penalties on every special teams play. It just strikes me as odd that Holding seems to be specifically ignored.

[DivineLegion]

No **** Son That Was Horrible!

[Northman]

I'm not complaining about the officiating as a whole, though I did get sick of the penalties on every special teams play. It just strikes me as odd that Holding seems to be specifically ignored.


It bothers me cause we got flagged for **** left and right and you know damn well had it been a Denver player who got jacked like Putz did that there would of been a personal foul flag. if im Shanny i still send in the tapes cause that **** aint right.

[2KBack]

It bothers me cause we got flagged for **** left and right and you know damn well had it been a Denver player who got jacked like Putz did that there would of been a personal foul flag. if im Shanny i still send in the tapes cause that **** aint right.

I was yelling about that one too, wasn't Putz a "defenseless Reciever?"

[wyobronco]

I won't go so far as conspiracy, but I will say that I was yelling "holding" at the screen a few times in the last 2 drives by the pats.

Amen, there was a particular 3rd down conversion where Warren was absolutely tackled on his way to Brady, it was in the open field & I couldn't believe there was no hankie

[SoCalBronco]

Pryce was tackled and held repeatedly, as well as Warren. It was pathetic.

[Kaylore]

I was screaming at the screen when the pats were all out tackling our D-linemen. They were holding every play. I'm not exagerating.

[2KBack]

I'll totally start calling conspiracy if Denver goes 3 games in a row without any holding penalties going their way. It's like the league doesn't want the Browncos to succeed.

[troya900]

The long pass that got them down the field when they got the FG to make it 28-6 to start their comeback was total BS. The guy was holding on the Broncos player for dear life and they get a huge passing play like what 50 yards or so and they don't even call it that's when I was really pissed.

[Rock Chalk]

Like two years ago, we went NINE STRAIGHT games without a holding call against the opposing offense.

If it happens "on every play" how do you go NINE STRAIGHT GAMES without it getting called?

[listopencil]

Amen, there was a particular 3rd down conversion where Warren was absolutely tackled on his way to Brady, it was in the open field & I couldn't believe there was no hankie



I remember that.

[ludo21]

Like two years ago, we went NINE STRAIGHT games without a holding call against the opposing offense.

If it happens "on every play" how do you go NINE STRAIGHT GAMES without it getting called?

You can also tell their holding by looking at the stats, we dont get those sexy sacks, but we do get a lot of pressures. But the only reason the pressures are there is caz of the blatant holding that gives the qb the last second to throw it away.

Hopefully we can get at least 1 call next week.

[DivineLegion]

There was one play where Pryce was double teamed and he beat his first guy and the second guy bear hugged him from behind...WTF WHERE WAS THE CALL...the play went for like 20 yards...

[Mediator12]

Do not forget the early Phantom 15 yard Facemask penalty on foxworth and the BS roughing penalty on Pryce when he hit him in the chest and his hand grazed the facemask AFTER impact.

Horrible. Flat out horrible.

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

Honestly, they probably let a lot of stuff go late in the game in the interest of time.

It was a very long game and I am sure the refs wanted to end it, but the holding was blatant and Med's too phantom calls were also awful. I have all the admiration in the world for Brady getting up after some of those hits. Once they said he had been knocked down 7 times, but it seemed like every play. Maybe with the injuries the Pats have on the OL, the refs were feeling sorry for Brady and letting some holding go.

[Mediator12]

Honestly, they probably let a lot of stuff go late in the game in the interest of time.

Then call the holding penalty, force the Pats to punt, and let Tatum and Anderson grind out the clock instead of giving Brady twenty more opportunities to chuck the ball downfield and stop the freaking CLOCK!

[24champ]

<img src="http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a198/24champbailey/DXS10110162142.jpg" alt="Image hosted by Photobucket.com">

EXHIBIT A: Pryce being held.

[Gcver2ver3]

Amen, there was a particular 3rd down conversion where Warren was absolutely tackled on his way to Brady, it was in the open field & I couldn't believe there was no hankie





I remember that play.....I was extremely upset over the no call there.

Warren was flat out tackled!!!!

We were held more times than I care to count....ridiculous

[baja]

Do not forget the early Phantom 15 yard Facemask penalty on foxworth and the BS roughing penalty on Pryce when he hit him in the chest and his hand grazed the facemask AFTER impact.

Horrible. Flat out horrible.

NO KIDDING MED

Those were two horrible calls. made me think there might be a fix in they were so bad.

You all are also right on the non holding calls, one in particular on a long completion by Tom Terrific where pryce was flat out dragged down by an O lineman.

That's two badly officiated games in a row although at least washington got some bad calls too at least.

I understand bad calls happen but what I have witnessed these past two weeks have be beyond neglect

[Mile High Shack]

I was absolutely flumoxed as to why the Pats were getting away with murder today

I realize the league can't have their boy not make the superbowl...but damn

I too agree there were some bad holding non-calls.........d'oh well, at least we won

but I'm glad other people noticed also

I think someone needs to send a tape of the last couple of games to the league and to get a clarification of what is and isn't a hold

[wabbit]

I wondered if there might be a thread about the officiating.

I'm a little surprised it dropped out of the first page, but I suppose since the Broncos pulled it out, it's a non-issue...BUT

Holy cow, our defensive linemen were mugged for a quarter without a single call.

I can understand...and to a degree agree with the philosophy that you just can't call them all because some kind of holding takes place on every offensive down, but blatant fouls absolutely have to be called, and this crew missed some embarrassing, and obvious muggings.

In one instance, and I believe someone else mentioned it in this thread, Gerard Warren wasn't held by just one guy...he broke away from him, then the second lineman actually tackled him...grabbed him with both hands and fell back...TACKLED HIM...I couldn't believe it happened. I was flabbergasted that it wasn't called.

I don't really think anyone higher up has any hidden agenda...I think these guys just stunk...and the weekly reviews they go through will be a difficult one.

Unbelievable.

[Play2win]

What? You didn't get the MEMO...

I'm sure the Refs did...

[Mile High Shack]

I wondered if there might be a thread about the officiating.

I'm a little surprised it dropped out of the first page, but I suppose since the Broncos pulled it out, it's a non-issue...BUT

Holy cow, our defensive linemen were mugged for a quarter without a single call.

I can understand...and to a degree agree with the philosophy that you just can't call them all because some kind of holding takes place on every offensive down, but blatant fouls absolutely have to be called, and this crew missed some embarrassing, and obvious muggings.

In one instance, and I believe someone else mentioned it in this thread, Gerard Warren wasn't held by just one guy...he broke away from him, then the second lineman actually tackled him...grabbed him with both hands and fell back...TACKLED HIM...I couldn't believe it happened. I was flabbergasted that it wasn't called.

I don't really think anyone higher up has any hidden agenda...I think these guys just stunk...and the weekly reviews they go through will be a difficult one.

Unbelievable.

quoted again for truth

the league needs to be looking at these games against us and realize our Dline is getting killed by non-holding calls late in the game

[bloodsunday]

Do not forget the early Phantom 15 yard Facemask penalty on foxworth and the BS roughing penalty on Pryce when he hit him in the chest and his hand grazed the facemask AFTER impact.

Horrible. Flat out horrible.
Exactly! No body is talking about the Foxworth penalty and it was the worst of the bunch!!!!

I almost beat up the Pats fan in front of me when those two plays were replayed on the stadium screen. He was hooting and hollering like a punk. I didn't realize that Logan Mankins was the guy that got ejected -- I assumed it was a backup OL since it was special teams.

I cannot believe that those officials even get checks for that ****. We played the Patriots and the officials yesterday.

[bloodsunday]

Great post, as usual Wabbit.


I'm a little surprised it dropped out of the first page, but I suppose since the Broncos pulled it out, it's a non-issue...BUT

Holy cow, our defensive linemen were mugged for a quarter without a single call.

I can understand...and to a degree agree with the philosophy that you just can't call them all because some kind of holding takes place on every offensive down, but blatant fouls absolutely have to be called, and this crew missed some embarrassing, and obvious muggings.

In one instance, and I believe someone else mentioned it in this thread, Gerard Warren wasn't held by just one guy...he broke away from him, then the second lineman actually tackled him...grabbed him with both hands and fell back...TACKLED HIM...I couldn't believe it happened. I was flabbergasted that it wasn't called.
I agree that no every holding play gets called. And maybe its not possible to call them all. But the thing that really gets my goat is how consistently its happening to Denver. Last season we go out and get a shutdown corner and they ask him to play with his hands behind his back. This season we go out and get a DL and the officials are letting them get held. Are you allowed to play Defense in this league? Seriously, this isn't the first game that our DL has been mugged with no help from the zeebras.

I don't really think anyone higher up has any hidden agenda...I think these guys just stunk...and the weekly reviews they go through will be a difficult one.
I agree, but going with my comments above... will it actually get better? Officiating on the whole has sucked this season. You couldn't help but feel like the officials were only watching the Bronco players in the 1st quarter yesterday. It actually kind of worked against the Pats because the crowd was FIRED UP! That was about as hostile as I have ever witnessed the I.F.

[VT_Bronco]

I watched the game with a room full of Pats fans and even they were amazed at some of the non-calls. I do not know when bear hugs and tackling became acceptable blocking technique.

[bloodsunday]

http://extras.mnginteractive.com/live/media/site36/2005/1016/20051016_084118_BronxCC101705foot.jpg

[Boogerboots]

Here's another clip of the crappy ref. (http://www.visit4info.com/details.cfm?adid=13719)There's a new sheriff in town! rofl

[watermock]

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/image.php?u=868&dateline=1129509296

These two would of called a staighter game....well...maybe...maybe not! Ha!

[2KBack]

it probably won't get any better next week, Eli is the leagues Golden boy in training. I hate to sound all Al Davisy, but at what point can you really start calling foul?

[Smiling Assassin27]

Is it just me or are the officials taking over games now? The Seahag-Texan game was a farce as well. EVERY play for about a half a quarter had a flag thrown.

[Rohirrim]

It's not like the league wanted the Patsies to win or something...

right?

[RaiderH8r]

The upside to the "no calls" on holding our D line is that they won't have huge sack numbers so re-signing them will be that much cheaper. Silver lining? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller? Anyone? Ahh, screw you guys.

[Mediator12]

The only thing I was pissed about yesterday was continuing to run the DL stunts being up 20+ points. I wanted to see more coverage with over the top help and a four man rush that took time off the clock to score without being vulnerable to the run and screen passes. The screens were 100+ yards of offense and WAY too easy. Allowing the run to be productive kept the heat off Brady enough to complete quick hitters.

[bronco militia]

did anyone see a conclusive camera angle that showed Mike Anderson down before he crossed the goaline?!?!? Three weeks in a row that replay got it wrong (in Tampa, Denver the last two weeks).

(i have anderson in a couple of Fantasy leagues...@#$!)

[TerrElway]

A friend and I were discussing how the Broncs hadn't benefitted from a holding call for a whole game. We couldn't believe you could go a whole game in the NFL and not get rung up for holding at least once.

A couple of weeks later, he said to me that there hadn't been a holding call for three straight weeks. I went and looked at my game tapes, then paid more attention to later games. The Broncs went a 6 week stretch where only 2 holding penalties were called on the opposing offensive line. 6 WEEKS!! Four of those games had 0 holds called.

I started thinking about that after watching last week's game and now this one. Pryce is still being mugged like he was by KC but against KC he drew the flags. A 10 yard hold is almost as good as a sack and there were at least three obvious "in space" holds Sunday.

It's interesting to see how it changes from one game/team to the next.

And on a side note, officiating overall has been poor this year in ALL games.

[bronco militia]

A friend and I were discussing how the Broncs hadn't benefitted from a holding call for a whole game. We couldn't believe you could go a whole game in the NFL and not get rung up for holding at least once.

A couple of weeks later, he said to me that there hadn't been a holding call for three straight weeks. I went and looked at my game tapes, then paid more attention to later games. The Broncs went a 6 week stretch where only 2 holding penalties were called on the opposing offensive line. 6 WEEKS!! Four of those games had 0 holds called.

I started thinking about that after watching last week's game and now this one. Pryce is still being mugged like he was by KC but against KC he drew the flags. A 10 yard hold is almost as good as a sack and there were at least three obvious "in space" holds Sunday.

It's interesting to see how it changes from one game/team to the next.

And on a side note, officiating overall has been poor this year in ALL games.

if I remember right, the Broncos went 10 games straight without drawing a holding call in 2002. Of course, the Broncos were running Ray Rhodes 2-9 with Chester the Buffet Molester covering slot WR's . ???

[Merlin]

The only thing I was pissed about yesterday was continuing to run the DL stunts being up 20+ points. I wanted to see more coverage with over the top help and a four man rush that took time off the clock to score without being vulnerable to the run and screen passes. The screens were 100+ yards of offense and WAY too easy. Allowing the run to be productive kept the heat off Brady enough to complete quick hitters.
Agree with every point. I could not believe some of the stunts he was calling, not only were they unnecessary, but they were leaving us open to quasi-big plays. Luckily, he went back to "normal" on NE's last drive. On the plus side it will make opponents waste time analysing those plays, because I'm sure we learned our lesson (or at least I hope).

I know this stance may not be popular, but I wonder if the non-calls were innocent. By the latter I mean that the officials were just hurrying up the game (it was quite late), they figured Denver had a big lead, so they felt the effect would be inconsequential. At least they made the right call on IG on the last drive.

[Bronx33]

Do not forget the early Phantom 15 yard Facemask penalty on foxworth and the BS roughing penalty on Pryce when he hit him in the chest and his hand grazed the facemask AFTER impact.

Horrible. Flat out horrible.

I fully agree i came out of my chair when i saw the pryce replay i was like WTF!

[Bronx33]

did anyone see a conclusive camera angle that showed Mike Anderson down before he crossed the goaline?!?!? Three weeks in a row that replay got it wrong (in Tampa, Denver the last two weeks).

(i have anderson in a couple of Fantasy leagues...@#$!)


That was funny because the ball had already broken the plane IMO.

[TerrElway]

if I remember right, the Broncos went 10 games straight without drawing a holding call in 2002. Of course, the Broncos were running Ray Rhodes 2-9 with Chester the Buffet Molester covering slot WR's . ???

AlecReanos said in an earlier post it was 9. All I know is that I started checking it out and saw 6. I emailed Schefter and told him to go review the film and to point it out. He must've had other emails too becuase a few weeks later, he did some sort of column on it where he pointed it out to the league etc. I think they started getting holding calls soon after.

You could also say the no calls could be due to the fact that the league wants scoring up and will do all they can to give the "O" a leg up.

And if you think they didn't call anything on NE because Brady is the Golden One, you are wrong. Peyton Mangina is the Golden Child dontcha know.

[BroncoFanDoug]

I wondered if there might be a thread about the officiating.

I'm a little surprised it dropped out of the first page, but I suppose since the Broncos pulled it out, it's a non-issue...BUT

Holy cow, our defensive linemen were mugged for a quarter without a single call.

I can understand...and to a degree agree with the philosophy that you just can't call them all because some kind of holding takes place on every offensive down, but blatant fouls absolutely have to be called, and this crew missed some embarrassing, and obvious muggings.

In one instance, and I believe someone else mentioned it in this thread, Gerard Warren wasn't held by just one guy...he broke away from him, then the second lineman actually tackled him...grabbed him with both hands and fell back...TACKLED HIM...I couldn't believe it happened. I was flabbergasted that it wasn't called.

I don't really think anyone higher up has any hidden agenda...I think these guys just stunk...and the weekly reviews they go through will be a difficult one.

Unbelievable.

Great post.

I am not one to usually complain much about officiating. It tends to even out over time. The Pryce call was bad, but I can see how at certain angles at full speed it might have looked like a blow to the head. Foxworth - mistakes happen.

But the sheer consistency of obvious holding going on by the patsies, and how much it led to them getting back in the game, just floored me. Even 1 or 2 calls would have ended one of those drives, and finished the game early.

Not much into conspiracy theories, but I think we should have won this one 31 to 13.

[bronco militia]

AlecReanos said in an earlier post it was 9. All I know is that I started checking it out and saw 6. I emailed Schefter and told him to go review the film and to point it out. He must've had other emails too becuase a few weeks later, he did some sort of column on it where he pointed it out to the league etc. I think they started getting holding calls soon after.

You could also say the no calls could be due to the fact that the league wants scoring up and will do all they can to give the "O" a leg up..

oh thanks....(that f'n alec!!) :cuss: :gripe: ;D



And if you think they didn't call anything on NE because Brady is the Golden One, you are wrong. Peyton Mangina is the Golden Child dontcha know.


uh no...the Zebras missed a ton of holding calls in last weeks game too.

[Odysseus]

Agree with every point. I could not believe some of the stunts he was calling, not only were they unnecessary, but they were leaving us open to quasi-big plays. Luckily, he went back to "normal" on NE's last drive. On the plus side it will make opponents waste time analysing those plays, because I'm sure we learned our lesson (or at least I hope).

I know this stance may not be popular, but I wonder if the non-calls were innocent. By the latter I mean that the officials were just hurrying up the game (it was quite late), they figured Denver had a big lead, so they felt the effect would be inconsequential. At least they made the right call on IG on the last drive.

Good point.

[Moon§hiner]

Tagliabue goes to sleep every night dreaming of a Manning vs Manning Superbowl...Do I think that's insane?....not insane, but hopefully the rest of the league keeps it from occuring...because with the NY market alone, he is going through lots of socks in his laundry.

[watermock]

Look, I hate penalties, but as was mentioned, 2 holding penalties against our line in 6 weeks is so ludicrous it's simply absurd.

[Odysseus]

Has anybody looked at our penalty totals and our penalty yards?

[Popps]

This may be on this thread somewhere, already... but if you happen to see the video on P. Holmes winning TD run on Sunday.. it sure looked to me like a d-linemen was being absolutely tackled on that play.

[broncos-rock]

Did anybody see the head of officials on the nfl network?

He said

On Holding...They are going to really call the offensive holding penality

On safety of players..They don't care about intent..blow to the head on the qb is going to be called no matter what.

I wish Rich Eisen would have asked about the terrible inconsistent calls

???

[Odysseus]

If they let the Broncos play a game without calling penaltys Sports writers are going to be livid because this defense will ending up hurting somebody.

[AlienBronco]

It sound like we missed the memo from the NFL office to the Refree's, to allow O-lineman to hold and tackle opposing D-lineman, so to allow more scoring.

[2KBack]

This may be on this thread somewhere, already... but if you happen to see the video on P. Holmes winning TD run on Sunday.. it sure looked to me like a d-linemen was being absolutely tackled on that play.

Oh yeah, there was an obvious hold or 2 one that catch and run, not to mention at least one block in the back, but that's pretty par for the course in KC.

[Garcia Bronco]

bump

[Popps]

Last week, the good/bad calls evened out. Not this week. We're playing against two teams.

[Garcia Bronco]

you got that right

[Garcia Bronco]

Yesterday in Oakland...our guys wsere getting held left and right...and the calls weren't being made. It's getting ridiculous.

[Mile High Shack]

Yesterday in Oakland...our guys wsere getting held left and right...and the calls weren't being made. It's getting ridiculous.

can anyone remember when an offensive line was called for holding against our Dline?

I seriously can not remember the last time that happened

[Paladin]

Perhaps equally blatant was the non-call when Sauerbrun got smeared on a kick.

[Garcia Bronco]

It's just dumb...they need to call it.

[Garcia Bronco]

Perhaps equally blatant was the non-call when Sauerbrun got smeared on a kick.


That was horse **** as well.

[2KBack]

I'm almost getting the sense that Holding truly has been demphasized in the efforts to aid passing attacks and scoring the last couple seasons. I mean, what other explanation is there?

[bendog]

They call roughing incosistetly. The PI on R. Smith was truly PI but worse happens every week that isn't called.

Offensive line holding is consistent in that if the oline guy has his hands inside the pads, there seldom is a call. On run or pass blocking. Outside the pads, flags fly. The tackling of Big Money is .... inexcusable.

[Mile High Shack]

They call roughing incosistetly. The PI on R. Smith was truly PI but worse happens every week that isn't called.

Offensive line holding is consistent in that if the oline guy has his hands inside the pads, there seldom is a call. On run or pass blocking. Outside the pads, flags fly. The tackling of Big Money is .... inexcusable.

he got tackled again and again yesterday.........there needs to be a hilight package sent to the head of NFL officiating like has been done with our oline to show that we are getting mugged

[BMF Bronco]

**** it, the broncs should take the "us against the world" attitude and shove it up their deliberate non-calling asses!

[OrangeShadow]

he got tackled again and again yesterday.........there needs to be a hilight package sent to the head of NFL officiating like has been done with our oline to show that we are getting mugged


you know thats not a bad idea,maybe i can talk to broncoman66(sp) to see if he can put on together. i mean he has higlights of every game so he must have tape:gossip:

[Rock Chalk]

AlecReanos said in an earlier post it was 9. All I know is that I started checking it out and saw 6. I emailed Schefter and told him to go review the film and to point it out. He must've had other emails too becuase a few weeks later, he did some sort of column on it where he pointed it out to the league etc. I think they started getting holding calls soon after.

You could also say the no calls could be due to the fact that the league wants scoring up and will do all they can to give the "O" a leg up.

And if you think they didn't call anything on NE because Brady is the Golden One, you are wrong. Peyton Mangina is the Golden Child dontcha know.
It was 9 or 10. I just remember Shanahan commenting about it towards the end of the season in a press conference so I went back and looked and he was right. 0 friggin holding calls.

[Garcia Bronco]

bump

[RunByDesign]

I am virtually certain that holding is no longer a penalty.

Especially if you are an opponent attempting to hold er.., I mean "block" the Denver defensive line.

[Northman]

its certainly a penalty if your a bronco player. the refs made the Cowboy line look like the best one in the league. and yet we still almost got to Bledsoe all that time.

[RunByDesign]

Bear hug around the waist?

Legal.

Arm Lock from behind?

Legal.

Handful of jersey from behind?

Legal.

What isn't legal:

If you happen to be a Bronco defender and get shoved by an offensive player when the ball is in the air: PI on you. Or "no-call", if the offensive player happens to catch it.