Any thoughts on why...

[Taco John]

...the Ravens defense is giving up twice as many points in the second half of games than they are in the first?

They have given up 30 points total in the first half of games, while they have given up 57 points during the second half. Also, for what it's worth, the Baltimore offense is second to last in scoring and are the sixth worst in the league at turning the ball over.

Hmmm... It's a real headscratcher. I guess their defense just sucks.

[Dr. Broncenstein]

They are worn out from being on the field all friggin day... that's my guess...

[24champ]

I wouldnt blame the defense so much, their offense is crap.

[Kaylore]

They are worn out from being on the field all friggin day... that's my guess...
Probably true.

[Garcia Bronco]

We cannot forget the symbotic nature of a system....an extreme offense....good or bad will have adverse effects against the defense.

[Needa Pass Rush]

They are worn out from being on the field all friggin day... that's my guess...

Yeah, without looking I would guess the time of possession isn't in their favor for most games either.

[SoDak Bronco]

...the Ravens defense is giving up twice as many points in the second half of games than they are in the first?

They have given up 30 points total in the first half of games, while they have given up 57 points during the second half. Also, for what it's worth, the Baltimore offense is the second to last scoring defense in the league and are the sixth worst in the league at turning the ball over.

Hmmm... It's a real headscratcher. I guess their defense just sucks.


Hey TJ, wondering if you can help me out. I am trying to start this thread, and I have tried fifty some times, and I won't load. Just keeps coming to a blank page. But anyway, can someone post this?? Sorry I'm jsut real frustrated, sO I thought I'd goto the mastermind. Thanks.

Who is your biggest suprise of 2005 Denver Broncos season?

Hey guys, Just wondering what everyone's biggest suprise for the Broncos a quarter of the way through the season. Mine would definitely have to be the play of rookie cornerback's Darrent "Dub" Williams and Dominque "frickin nice coverage" Foxworth.

Pardon the nicknames. I'm still workin on those. Go Broncos!

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Yeah, without looking I would guess the time of possession isn't in their favor for most games either.

I thought the same, but they're 7th. Their average TOP is 31:53.

[Tredici]

Because Father Time is catching up with them? What's the average age on that defense now anyway?

[Taco John]

Hey TJ, wondering if you can help me out. I am trying to start this thread, and I have tried fifty some times, and I won't load. Just keeps coming to a blank page. But anyway, can someone post this?? Sorry I'm jsut real frustrated, sO I thought I'd goto the mastermind. Thanks.

Who is your biggest suprise of 2005 Denver Broncos season?

Hey guys, Just wondering what everyone's biggest suprise for the Broncos a quarter of the way through the season. Mine would definitely have to be the play of rookie cornerback's Darrent "Dub" Williams and Dominque "frickin nice coverage" Foxworth.

Pardon the nicknames. I'm still workin on those. Go Broncos!

Check this thread...
http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=29989



I'm going to be upgrading to vBulletin 3.5 soon, and hopefully that will fix our problem...

[Taco John]

Because Father Time is catching up with them? What's the average age on that defense now anyway?



I'm not sure about the defense, but the average age on their 53 man roster is 26.94... I'd say that's a good balance of veterans and youngsters.

Gimme a second, I'll calculate the D.

[Taco John]

Ray Lewis is the oldest Raven defender at 30. This is a defense that is in its prime. The average age matches the rest of their team at 26.9.

Anthony Weaver 25
Kelly Greg 28
Maake Kemoeatu 26
Terrell Suggs 23
Adalius Thomas 28
Ray Lewis 30
Tommy Polley 27
Chris McAlister 28
Samari Rolle 29
Ed Reed 27
Will Demps 25

IMHO, age doesn't appear to be a problem.

[ludo21]

Ray Lewis is the oldest Raven defender at 30. This is a defense that is in its prime. The average age matches the rest of their team at 26.9.

Anthony Weaver 25
Kelly Greg 28
Maake Kemoeatu 26
Terrell Suggs 23
Adalius Thomas 28
Ray Lewis 30
Tommy Polley 27
Chris McAlister 28
Samari Rolle 29
Ed Reed 27
Will Demps 25

IMHO, age doesn't appear to be a problem.

Wow, very interesting. I hope they continue to go downward because i dont wanna see them in Denver on a winning streak.

[-Slap-]

Cuz old Ray Ray ain't what he used to be. No noticeable decline in the camera hogging chest thumping however. They would be crazy to extend him for the money his ego craves.

I'm not breaking a news story here when I disclose that the Ravens offense has pretty much sucked for the entire duration of the franchise. The difference now is the defensive personnel. They're no longer good enough to overcome that inept offense. Now the three and outs are killing them.

[Rascal]

Why?

Boller, Wright, Fassel, and Billick.

[-Slap-]

Ray Lewis is the oldest Raven defender at 30. This is a defense that is in its prime. The average age matches the rest of their team at 26.9.

Anthony Weaver 25
Kelly Greg 28
Maake Kemoeatu 26
Terrell Suggs 23
Adalius Thomas 28
Ray Lewis 30
Tommy Polley 27
Chris McAlister 28
Samari Rolle 29
Ed Reed 27
Will Demps 25

IMHO, age doesn't appear to be a problem.

Yeah, but the extremely underrated Peter Boulware isn't in his prime. The similarly underrated Jamie Sharper is plying his trade elsewhere these days.

Sam Adams and that other fat tub of goo aren't absorbing Ray Ray's blockers like ankle-shooting Michelin twins. That's right, folks. Offensive lineman aren't the only guys in the trenches taking cheap shots. Watch some film from the Ravens' prime defensive years. Those fat bastards got away with murder keeping the killer clean.

Youth is not always a blessing. How old was Rod Woodson when he was making tons of big plays for that defense?

[Rascal]

If they had a decent QB at all they would be dramatically improved. Boller and Wright are so pathetic I doubt they would be on most teams roster as a third string.

[SoCalBronco]

Cuz old Ray Ray ain't what he used to be. No noticeable decline in the camera hogging chest thumping however. They would be crazy to extend him for the money his ego craves.

I'm not breaking a news story here when I disclose that the Ravens offense has pretty much sucked for the entire duration of the franchise. The difference now is the defensive personnel. They're no longer good enough to overcome that inept offense. Now the three and outs are killing them.

I believe before the start of last season, he said he wanted to have the league's first 50 million signing bonus. Not sure what Planet he is on. Even the 2000 caliber Ray Lewis could not command anything near that. Even Peyton got 34 million in bonus money, a far cry from the 50 figure. I dont think they will extend him at all. His base salary figures are already around 5 or 6 million. Thats already way too much for a guy on the decline.

[-Slap-]

People seem to think that 75% of what used to be Ray Lewis and Ed Reed is enough. That front seven is not anywhere near the force it was a few years ago. Haven't we seen in Denver what happens when you address the secondary first?

[-Slap-]

I believe before the start of last season, he said he wanted to have the league's first 50 million signing bonus. Not sure what Planet he is on. Even the 2000 caliber Ray Lewis could not command anything near that. Even Peyton got 34 million in bonus money, a far cry from the 50 figure. I dont think they will extend him at all. His base salary figures are already around 5 or 6 million. Thats already way too much for a guy on the decline.
I heard a report from a notoriously unreliable source a few weeks ago that they would basically accelerate the last three years of his contract into an $18 million signing bonus, and then spread that cap hit across a new five year contract.

I hope they do it, but I bet they won't. I don't think the lockerroom will remain big enough for both Lewis and Reed. There are some people who suggest that there's a chemistry issue between those two that didn't exist before. That's why Reed moved his locker away from Lewis' and the film sessions at Ray's house don't happen anymore.

[Taco John]

Why?

Boller, Wright, Fassel, and Billick.



Now wait a minute here... Those guys are on offense. Are you suggesting that the offense is the problem? Clearly you can see that it's the defense that is getting scored on.

[orange crusher]

Now wait a minute here... Those guys are on offense. Are you suggesting that the offense is the problem? Clearly you can see that it's the defense that is getting scored on.

I do think it is the offense. The QB position just flat out sucks whether it's Boller or Wright. They can't sustain any drives to keep their defense off the field. I think it's just wearing the defense down in the second halfs of games.

[Rock Chalk]

Now wait a minute here... Those guys are on offense. Are you suggesting that the offense is the problem? Clearly you can see that it's the defense that is getting scored on.
The moment I opened this thread I knew you were fishing.

[Taco John]

I believe before the start of last season, he said he wanted to have the league's first 50 million signing bonus. Not sure what Planet he is on. Even the 2000 caliber Ray Lewis could not command anything near that. Even Peyton got 34 million in bonus money, a far cry from the 50 figure. I dont think they will extend him at all. His base salary figures are already around 5 or 6 million. Thats already way too much for a guy on the decline.



Keep in mind that there's talk of extending the cap another $15 million dollars per team. That's a lot of cheddar floating around for signing bonuses...

[Rock Chalk]

I do think it is the offense. The QB position just flat out sucks whether it's Boller or Wright. They can't sustain any drives to keep their defense off the field. I think it's just wearing the defense down in the second halfs of games.
He's being underhanded and sneaky to try and prove a point about our offense. In other words, he is making a completely identical thread to the fifteen hundred other ones talking about it.

[TheDave]

The moment I opened this thread I knew you were fishing.

You know, I opened this and started to type some smart ass remark about how he would find a way of blaming it on Jake... I decided not to, and gave TJ the benefit of the doubt... STUPID ME!

[Rascal]

Now wait a minute here... Those guys are on offense. Are you suggesting that the offense is the problem? Clearly you can see that it's the defense that is getting scored on.

They are giving up 167 passing yards and 95 rushing yards per game. And have surrendered 8 touchdowns.

What's their opponents average field position?

Coincidentally, the Broncos D is giving up 88 rushing yards per game and 234 yards passing per game. And have surrendered 9 TD's (granted through five games compared to 4). But what is their opponents average field position?

Also the Ravens D have only three TO's, compared to 11 TO's by the Broncos.

[Taco John]

He's being underhanded and sneaky to try and prove a point about our offense. In other words, he is making a completely identical thread to the fifteen hundred other ones talking about it.



You're just jealous of my genius. :blowhorn:

[Taco John]

You know, I opened this and started to type some smart ass remark about how he would find a way of blaming it on Jake... I decided not to, and gave TJ the benefit of the doubt... STUPID ME!



Come on... You know I've got a valid point. I can't help it if the Ravens are the perfect test case...

I do know this... It's been stated more than once that our gameplan is similar to the Ravens game plan... I think the Ravens are a good look at what our team could be if our offense doesn't live up to their end of the bargain in tough games.

[Crushaholic]

Ray Lewis is the oldest Raven defender at 30.

Ray Lewis is only 30? Sheesh...It seems like he's been in the league forever... ugh!~

[-Slap-]

Come on... You know I've got a valid point. I can't help it if the Ravens are the perfect test case...

I do know this... It's been stated more than once that our gameplan is similar to the Ravens game plan... I think the Ravens are a good look at what our team could be if our offense doesn't live up to their end of the bargain in tough games.
Their offense is worse than ours. I think our defense is better, too. They also have an asslick for a head coach.

[watermock]

Of course the D has slipped. The interior of the line has slipped and people are getting a hat on Ray Ray, makng him a spectator. The offense still sucks, but now the defense has lost it's mojo. I wouldn't write it off, but it appears that the glory days of that D are melting down into a collection of wannabe Raiders.

Let's kick our boots in thieir teeth while they are down...first..we need to keep Brady under control...I don't know what makes this guy special, but he's got it...Get them put to bed before they can win late....That guy is going to easily break Elway's record for comebacks at this rate....

[Pezman]

Check this thread...
http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=29989



I'm going to be upgrading to vBulletin 3.5 soon, and hopefully that will fix our problem...

Crosses fingers, prays to the vBulletin gods, offers a sacrificial chicken, (or GoChiefs) as our humble reward for the end of vBugginess

*********

As for the Ravens d, its easy. Start with their horrid offensive production in the first half of every game. When you start to see that the Ravens clock management has them stuck on defense for nearly 18 minutes every half, by the time that fourth quarter rolls around, its no wonder they are tired. Then again, I can see that even with their offense being a disaster, many teams are actually finding success against their secondary this year and this in turn is opening up the fast screen passes...

[Popps]

...the Ravens defense is giving up twice as many points in the second half of games than they are in the first?

They have given up 30 points total in the first half of games, while they have given up 57 points during the second half. Also, for what it's worth, the Baltimore offense is second to last in scoring and are the sixth worst in the league at turning the ball over.

Hmmm... It's a real headscratcher. I guess their defense just sucks.

Yea, when they give up 35 points in the first half of a game... come talk to us.

When their defense allows over 60 combined points in the first half of playoff games two years running.... come talk to us.

You're comparing a defense that all but shuts teams out in the first half.... to a defense that dropped their drawers and bent over for any offense that came along in the playoffs?

Great take as always, Taco.

[Popps]

He's being underhanded and sneaky to try and prove a point about our offense. In other words, he is making a completely identical thread to the fifteen hundred other ones talking about it.

Exactly.

The comparison is so flawed it's hard to know where to start. (But, that's the Taco M.O.)

You see, Taco just realized that crappy offenses tend to put pressure on their defenses. It's a real revelation for him.

Problem is, he's got no perspective. He can't differentiate between Anthony Wright and oen of the worst offenses in the league.... and a top 10 offense being hog-tied by its own defense that gave up 90 points in two playoff games.

Hey, he's still figuring all of this out. Give him a break.

[watermock]

I have been a slaughterhouse this week..I have sacrificed a chicken, a corn cob, a cow, a steer and Bull and several pigs including a pregnant sow....I even uprooted a bean...we can't lose...man I wish I could talk to the team.

Sometimes I don't think Shanahan is passionate enough. He's too x and o I think sometimes...

if not Shanahan, have someone to beat on them!

"GET OFF YOUR ASSES YOU WORTHLESS PILE OF OVERPAID DUNG..."....

I could do that.

for about 25 seconds.

[Odysseus]

Tampa Bay has always had a pretty good defense. What is their defense rated now? They have a QB whose rated similar to Plummer. They have a top 10 running back. (Tatum Bell will be there before end of the season) They seem to run a similar program to the Broncos. They are also 4-1. Hmmmm.

FYI: The number one scoring threat on the Denver Broncos is STILL Jason Elam.

[Kaylore]

Another Jake hating thread.

/Sigh

Jacksonville: 13 play drive consuming nine minutes and finishing in touchdown from Plummer to House against one of the top defenses in the league.

Washington: 11 play drive consuming 8+ minutes and finishing in a touchdown pass from Plummer to Lelie against one of the top defenses in the league.

But Plummer sucks, according to Taco, and drives stall with him at the helm - supposedly

And your analogy just proves the point that Plummer is doing his job because he has been able to move the ball, unlike the Ravens.

[Odysseus]

Another Jake hating thread.

/Sigh


It's my fault. It's the avatar.

[DrFate]

...the Ravens defense is giving up twice as many points in the second half of games than they are in the first?
...
Hmmm... It's a real headscratcher. I guess their defense just sucks.

I assume you feel this kind of sarcasm is clever and witty?

Perhaps you should seek some kind of professional help to deal with your intense hatred (and unusual fascination) of Jake Plummer.

[Mile High Shack]

what I can't figure out is

why TJ has to continually try and prove his point?

I think everyone knows that the offense needs help from the D and vice versa

but our offense is not as bad as the Ravens offense, not even close to as bad

there are other factors for Bmore's decline as well, their Dline sucks baws besides Kelly Gregg I think....and Ray-Ray isn't the Ray-Ray of 5 years ago, amazing how that works when age creeps up on you.

Just get it over with TJ and start a Jake hating thread 3 x's a week and get it over with :)

***edit**** to save your server bandwidth here

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=21928&highlight=Jake

[bloodsunday]

21 of those 57 where to Indy, which was clearly a case of the damn breaking. I think that stat is a little skewed with the Indy game.

[Odysseus]

I assume you feel this kind of sarcasm is clever and witty?

Perhaps you should seek some kind of professional help to deal with your intense hatred (and unusual fascination) of Jake Plummer.

I wish this thing had audio.... "There's a thin line between love and hate" Sing it with me!

[Mile High Shack]

I wish this thing had audio.... "There's a thin line between love and hate" Sing it with me!

I think TJ's love of SOB burned him badly so he doesn't want to give any QB any slack b/c SOB ended up blowing up in his face

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Another Jake hating thread.

/Sigh

Jacksonville: 13 play drive consuming nine minutes and finishing in touchdown from Plummer to House against one of the top defenses in the league.

Washington: 11 play drive consuming 8+ minutes and finishing in a touchdown pass from Plummer to Lelie against one of the top defenses in the league.

But Plummer sucks, according to Taco, and drives stall with him at the helm - supposedly

And your analogy just proves the point that Plummer is doing his job because he has been able to move the ball, unlike the Ravens.

Wow. Are you seriously using the ONE DRIVE WORTH A SHIAT in the Washington game to try and prove your point?

Somehow I think the five consecutive three-and-outs is a little more meaningful. Your defense didn't even start folding until after that was all over. They held the Skins at bay for quite a while despite your offense farting around and doing nothing.

[Mile High Shack]

Wow. Are you seriously using the ONE DRIVE WORTH A SHIAT in the Washington game to try and prove your point?

Somehow I think the five consecutive three-and-outs is a little more meaningful. Your defense didn't even start folding until after that was all over. They held the Skins at bay for quite a while despite your offense farting around and doing nothing.

it's amazing you talk crap before playing the exact same team we just did

[Taco John]

You see, Taco just realized that crappy offenses tend to put pressure on their defenses. It's a real revelation for him.


*spitting out my coffee*

WHAT!? Hilarious!

Dude, we've seen it in effect for the last two playoff games against Indy, and I've commented on it exensively. You're the one who's argued against it. NOW you're telling me I'M the one it's a revelation to!

You're hopeless!

[Bob's your Information Minister]

it's amazing you talk crap before playing the exact same team we just did

Who's talking crap? I'm defending the Broncos defense.

[Taco John]

I think TJ's love of SOB burned him badly so he doesn't want to give any QB any slack b/c SOB ended up blowing up in his face


That's just stupid.

We've lost two playoff games in a row by a combined total of Moses's age, and you guys want to make this about Griese. Griese had NOTHING to do with our playoff losses the last two seasons.

Some of you are simply unwilling to face the facts about the weakness of this team... Fine by me. But for cripes sakes, don't whine when I present my case with more supporting arguments and facts.

[Rascal]

Here is a fact:

We are 4-1.

[Mile High Shack]

That's just stupid.

We've lost two playoff games in a row by a combined total of Moses's age, and you guys want to make this about Griese. Griese had NOTHING to do with our playoff losses the last two seasons.

Some of you are simply unwilling to face the facts about the weakness of this team... Fine by me. But for cripes sakes, don't whine when I present my case with more supporting arguments and facts.

what more needs to be said about it?

Personally I think you are going this hard after Jake b/c of your last defense of the SOB.....you were made to look the fool with sticking up for him, even when it was obvious he was the problem

I agree with you up to a point with Jake.........my point is, this team is built to win by defense and special teams first....offense is put out there not to make mistakes......which Jake has done for the most part.

We aren't in the hay-day of the great offensive machine we use to have, what our D needs to do is give our O good field position and turn overs and conversely, our O can't give the D bad field position and turn overs

I expect us to average about 21 points a game this year.......but that happens when you are a defensive team first

[Tredici]

I think talk of the "defensive collapse" against the Skins is highly exagerated. Brunell threw the ball FIFTY THREE TIMES.

Let's throw some perspective in there.

[DBroncos4life]

Because I have them on my fantasy team. No other reason holds water but this one. :alky:

[Taco John]

Here is a fact:

We are 4-1.



Yeah? What were we last year at this time? Somebody should have told this fact to Indianapolis's defenders before that first Interception in the RCA dome. Maybe then they'd have shown a little more respect.

[Taco John]

I think talk of the "defensive collapse" against the Skins is highly exagerated. Brunell threw the ball FIFTY THREE TIMES.

Let's throw some perspective in there.


Ding ding ding! I agree completely Tred. I think it's incredibly hard to blame your defense for "defensive collapse" in a game in which your offense goes three and out five times in a row for a grand total of 23 yards.

The thing that frustrates me the most is that if we would have lost that game, the entire thing would have been put on them. Thank God for the tuck rule.

[Rascal]

Yeah? What were we last year at this time? Somebody should have told this fact to Indianapolis's defenders before that first Interception in the RCA dome. Maybe then they'd have shown a little more respect.

So you've already written the season off....sad :nono:

And how many TO's did we have at this point last year? You failed to address that fact of imformation when I posted some facts earlier.

[Rascal]

Ding ding ding! I agree completely Tred. I think it's incredibly hard to blame your defense for "defensive collapse" in a game in which your offense goes three and out five times in a row for a grand total of 23 yards.


So why can't our D force five three and outs from an offense that is just as bad in the Skins?

All offenses are going to have times in which they struggle. The days of watching Elway and Co putting up 30+ consistently is over. Get used to it.

[Taco John]

So you've already written the season off....sad :nono:



Uh, no. What in the world would give you the idea that I've written off the season. I most certainly have not. I believe that if Shanahan and Kubiak can pull it out.

I am concerned about Jake keeping his end of the bargain though... and the defense catching hell for it if they trip on him.

[Taco John]

And how many TO's did we have at this point last year? You failed to address that fact of imformation when I posted some facts earlier.


I doubt many. Jake didn't start putting them up like gangbusters until the end of the season...

[Rascal]

Jags forced 2 three and outs against us. Another opponent had 4 three and outs against the Jags...can you guess who?

[Bob's your Information Minister]

So why can't our D force five three and outs from an offense that is just as bad in the Skins?


After the Skins first TD they went...

Punt
Punt
Field goal
End of Half
Punt
Blocked Field Goal
Punt
Punt

[OrangeShadow]

they are basically a year long verison of our miami game

[Rascal]

After the Skins first TD they went...

Punt
Punt
Field goal
End of Half
Punt
Blocked Field Goal
Punt
Punt

half and two field goals (being blocked doesn't matter) does not constitute 3 and out.

[Taco John]

they are basically a year long verison of our miami game


Yep.

[Taco John]

half and two field goals (being blocked doesn't matter) does not constitute 3 and out.


See this is what gets me... You get shown very convincing facts about how our defense isn't the problem, and you shrug them off like they're nothing in order to protect a quarterback who is clearly limiting our offense... I don't get it.

[Rascal]

Uh, no. What in the world would give you the idea that I've written off the season. I most certainly have not. I believe that if Shanahan and Kubiak can pull it out.

I am concerned about Jake keeping his end of the bargain though... and the defense catching hell for it if they trip on him.

What is his end of the bargain?

He plays as hard as he can and runs the plays that are called.

[Rascal]

See this is what gets me... You get shown very convincing facts about how our defense isn't the problem, and you shrug them off like they're nothing in order to protect a quarterback who is clearly limiting our offense... I don't get it.

And I've shown you facts and you shrug them off.

I've posted facts dealing with the issue twice and each time you shrug them off (TO's and Jags game).

POT MEET KETTLE!!!

[Taco John]

And I've shown you facts and you shrug them off.

I've posted facts dealing with the issue twice and each time you shrug them off (TO's and Jags game).

POT MEET KETTLE!!!


What facts are you showing me? That Jake has only thrown three tunrovers this year? Well thank God for that, especially considering how limited he's been... All i have to say is Shanahan and Kubiak are geniuses and deserve coach of the year honors if they can get us to the playoffs again with the offense we're running.

[KipCorrington25]

I'm not sure exactly how, but this is definitely Neuheisal's fault.

[Rascal]

What facts are you showing me? That Jake has only thrown three tunrovers this year? Well thank God for that, especially considering how limited he's been... All i have to say is Shanahan and Kubiak are geniuses and deserve coach of the year honors if they can get us to the playoffs again with the offense we're running.

Are you blind? :kiddingme

"Jags forced 2 three and outs against us. Another opponent had 4 three and outs against the Jags...can you guess who?"

And also the fact about how many TO's we have created compared to the Ravens.

"Kubiak is a genius" :stupid:

He is so predicable it's pathetic. I don't know how many times Shack and I have been able to watch a game and predict what plays are going to be run consistently. I sincerely hope they be a bit more creative during the Pats game or Bellichick is going to rip us to pieces. And then when we lose everybody is going to come back and blame Jake or the defense. Go figure.

[Taco John]

Are you blind? :kiddingme

"Jags forced 2 three and outs against us. Another opponent had 4 three and outs against the Jags...can you guess who?"

I must be blind... What does this mean? I don't quite understand what point you're making. How about some follow through?


And also the fact about how many TO's we have created compared to the Ravens.


What about it? How about some follow through?

[Rascal]

Look...

I'm not saying it's completely the defenses fault, but I'm also not saying it's completely Jake's fault either.

It's a multitude of things such as a) predictable play calling, b) WR's not catching the ball, c) Jake, d) the defense not being able to get off the field on their own.

You choose to focus on Jake...fine. I happen to think it's more then that.

[Taco John]

Look...

I'm not saying it's completely the defenses fault, but I'm also not saying it's completely Jake's fault either.

It's a multitude of things such as a) predictable play calling, b) WR's not catching the ball, c) Jake, d) the defense not being able to get off the field on their own.

You choose to focus on Jake...fine. I happen to think it's more then that.


I focus on Jake because three, almost four of your four items there directly correlate with his role on the team. A) We're running a very limited offense because of his ability... thus predictable. B) Jake is inaccurate, thus making it hard to catch the ball. C) Jake is Jake. D) The defense is definitely able to get off the field on their own, at which point in time they get sent right back on it.

[Rascal]

LOL!!

Okay TJ...I'll spell it out for you step by step...

We had two three and outs against the Jags (a good defense) and yet the Colts had 4. Since you seem to focus on Jake as being the sole reason for our three and outs and wanting him replaced, I guess Colts fans should be wanting Manning benched? I don't think so.

You focus on the Miami and Skins games. Well why don't you focus on the Chargers and Jags game in which we had 4 three and outs combined. This offense isn't going to put up 30 points like you want...get used to it. It's going to struggle against the better defenses.

[Taco John]

LOL!!

Okay TJ...I'll spell it out for you step by step...

We had two three and outs against the Jags (a good defense) and yet the Colts had 4. Since you seem to focus on Jake as being the sole reason for our three and outs and wanting him replaced, I guess Colts fans should be wanting Manning benched? I don't think so.


Are you familiar with the term logical fallacy?


You focus on the Miami and Skins games. Well why don't you focus on the Chargers and Jags game in which we had 4 three and outs combined. This offense isn't going to put up 30 points like you want...get used to it. It's going to struggle against the better defenses.

I know it's going to struggle against the better defenses. That's my entire point. Have you seen the Colts defense this year? Do you realize that the road to the Superbowl goes straight through the RCA dome? MY ENTIRE POINT is that this offense is going to struggle against the better defenses... And then you turn around and tell me that as though it's some massive revelation to me...

[Rascal]

I focus on Jake because three, almost four of your four items there directly correlate with his role on the team. A) We're running a very limited offense because of his ability... thus predictable. B) Jake is inaccurate, thus making it hard to catch the ball. C) Jake is Jake. D) The defense is definitely able to get off the field on their own, at which point in time they get sent right back on it.

Jake showed the ability to throw the ball deep to Lelie last year...he did lead the league in YPG for SOME REASON!!!

How many drops have our WR's had this year? And in the NFL if the ball touches your hands...it should be caught. That's what they get paid to do.

In the Miami and Skins game how many three and outs did our defense force compard to what our offense did? Our defense forced 4 combined three and outs against those anemic offenses.

[Taco John]

In the Miami and Skins game how many three and outs did our defense force compard to what our offense did? Our defense forced 4 combined three and outs against those anemic offenses.


I guess our defense just sucks then, huh?

[Rascal]

Are you familiar with the term logical fallacy?


Are you familiar with the term 4321~

[Rascal]

I guess our defense just sucks then, huh?

Did I say it sucked?

[fontaine]

You focus on the Miami and Skins games. Well why don't you focus on the Chargers and Jags game in which we had 4 three and outs combined. This offense isn't going to put up 30 points like you want...get used to it. It's going to struggle against the better defenses.

Because the whole damn point is the to play well most of the time and especially through 3-4 playoff games up the SuperBowl.

Do you expect Nalen/Bell/Al Wilson to fluctuate between having one/two good games followed by one/two stinkers?

WTF happened to expecting a little consistency. I don't expect this offense to score 30 points every week but if we have any SuperBowl/Playoff aspirations what so ever, we need consistently good performances not just whenever they get lucky or feel like it.

[Rock Chalk]

This thread went about as expected.

[Taco John]

Did I say it sucked?



Not in so many words, but you seem to think their most important task is creating three-and-outs, rather than turnovers and punts.

[Taco John]

This thread went about as expected.


And you offered just as much to it as you do any other thread.

[fontaine]

And you offered just as much to it as you do any other thread.

ROFL!

[Rascal]

Not in so many words, but you seem to think their most important task is creating three-and-outs, rather than turnovers and punts.

Really..then why did I mention the TO's?

You think it's soley Jake's fault. I don't. The real answer will come in the offseason when we see what Shanny does.

Later

[Rock Chalk]

And you offered just as much to it as you do any other thread.
Why get into the same tired ****ing argument? This is like Griese all over again. Everytime you post on any thread you are bashing Jake. Instead of sucking Griese's cock, your modus operandii is to bash Jake.

Im not going to sit here and bandy words with you over and over again to knock into your thick skull how wrong you are. At least you are consistently wrong. Wrong about the Griese One and wrong about Jake.

And fontaine, you haven't posted one thing worth of note in your entire tenure on this board so any input you have, might as well just keep to yourself.

[fontaine]

And fontaine, you haven't posted one thing worth of note in your entire tenure on this board so any input you have, might as well just keep to yourself.

ROFL!

I'm not here to provide input or amuse you Alec. If you want to entertain yourself have a timeout and go play with your guns.

It's not your board, your not even a moderator, so until then keep coming out with "pearls of wisdom" like the one above!

Maybe if you keep barking, TJ will give you another banning and you'll have some time to cool off.

[Crushaholic]

Could this be another thread started by TJ headed to the Butt? Stay tuned...

[TheDave]

Folks the only way to solve this is to stop rewarding bad behavior. Every time TJ starts an I hate Jake Plummer thread it ends up going 10+ pages, we need to learn to ignore it... At least while we are winning. If we start losing games while jake is throwing picks then by all means, let the hating begin.

This is like the little fat kid farting in the back of the class. Yes he looks like a little red faced idiot who is turning the back half of the room into a toxic waste dump... but because people keep snickering and pointing the numbnuts keeps doing it. Ignore the behavior and it will eventually stop.

[Sean]

I focus on Jake because three, almost four of your four items there directly correlate with his role on the team. A) We're running a very limited offense because of his ability... thus predictable.

Has Shanahan ever said this? I know all about Kubiak and Jake going over every throw/formation/down/distance from last season, looking for ways to improve our turnover ratio. I didn't realize that Kubiak went to Shanny and basically said, "We're going to have to limit our offense this year because of Jake". Is that what you are saying happened? I don't believe that.

I do think they want Jake to be smarter with the ball ... no left handed throws, try throwing it away once in awhile, etc. He has done this, to the tune of 4-1. I don't see this as limiting our offense, and I'm curious as to why you see it that way.

[BroncoInferno]

Come on... You know I've got a valid point. I can't help it if the Ravens are the perfect test case...

Actually, it totally invalidates your argument, because Baltimore is 7th in TOP. In other words, the defense is getting ample rest throughout the game, yet still folds in the second half. Why? Cause they ain't what they used to be.

Nice try, though.

[Mile High Shack]

Actually, it totally invalidates your argument, because Baltimore is 7th in TOP. In other words, the defense is getting ample rest throughout the game, yet still folds in the second half. Why? Cause they ain't what they used to be.

Nice try, though.

owned :boxing:

[Taco John]

Actually, it totally invalidates your argument, because Baltimore is 7th in TOP. In other words, the defense is getting ample rest throughout the game, yet still folds in the second half. Why? Cause they ain't what they used to be.

Nice try, though.


Not really, because my argument doesn't revolve around the final TOP figures. The end number with regards to TOP doesn't tell the whole story. Especially if the opponent is playing off the ball at the end of the game, and are giving the offense some 'bend-but-don't-break' breathing room...

[Popps]

I think TJ's love of SOB burned him badly so he doesn't want to give any QB any slack b/c SOB ended up blowing up in his face

LOL


Gee... ya think?

[Popps]

Folks the only way to solve this is to stop rewarding bad behavior. Every time TJ starts an I hate Jake Plummer thread it ends up going 10+ pages, we need to learn to ignore it... At least while we are winning. If we start losing games while jake is throwing picks then by all means, let the hating begin.

This is like the little fat kid farting in the back of the class. Yes he looks like a little red faced idiot who is turning the back half of the room into a toxic waste dump... but because people keep snickering and pointing the numbnuts keeps doing it. Ignore the behavior and it will eventually stop.



Hilarious!

Taco's posts reduced to a fat kid farting in class for attention.

It's so perfect, I almost feel guilty laughing.

[Odysseus]

Hilarious!

Taco's posts reduced to a fat kid farting in class for attention.

It's so perfect, I almost feel guilty laughing.

I don't.

[DBroncos4life]

Damn this crappy Plummer for doing enough to win us games. If he gets us to another playoff game I might just lose it.

[Cleo McDowell]

http://www.q101.com/_Shared/Pics/WKQX/madden05.jpg
its obvious. the madden curse. a season late, though. "FEAR THE D."

[FADERPROOF]

...the Ravens defense is giving up twice as many points in the second half of games than they are in the first?

They have given up 30 points total in the first half of games, while they have given up 57 points during the second half. Also, for what it's worth, the Baltimore offense is second to last in scoring and are the sixth worst in the league at turning the ball over.

Hmmm... It's a real headscratcher. I guess their defense just sucks.



They sucked back in 2001 and somehow managed to win a title, even went 4 games without a friggin TD and still won those games(I was at one of them even, 12-0 win over the Browns on 4 matt stover FG's.)

This isn't the offense failing the defense, that is just in your head and something you just happened to make up so you can give blame to Jake Plummer for the D giving up 35 first half points in a playoff game.

[FADERPROOF]

I guess our defense just sucks then, huh?

It does when we give up 35 points in a half.

[FADERPROOF]

In the Super Bowl, Trent Dilfer threw for only a 48% completion percentage and Jamal Lewis barely got over 100 rushing yards(107), that means that the Ravens couldn't complete passes and weren't THAT effective on the ground even...

They won the Super Bowl 35-7.

[Popps]

In the Super Bowl, Trent Dilfer threw for only a 48% completion percentage and Jamal Lewis barely got over 100 rushing yards(107), that means that the Ravens couldn't complete passes and weren't THAT effective on the ground even...

They won the Super Bowl 35-7.

The obvious answer here is balance. No one in their right mind would EXPECT an offense as bad as that Raven's SB offense to win a SB. They had a special defense.

But, when your defense gives up over 60 points in the first half of two playoff games, it doesn't take a genius to see which side of the ball needs emphasis.

There's a REASON the Colts have been taken apart in New England the last two years. DEFENSE. The Colts had the best offense in the league last year, and yet... they fell on their face in New England. Why? New England has a better defense.

Defenses keep you in playoff games. You don't go into a playoff game expecting your offense to have to score 50 points to win.

You shouldn't expect you team to be down 28 points by the second quarter just because your offense took a while to get on track. Need another example? Check said New England game. I think NE had 6 points at the HALF. Now, using Taco-logic, they should have been down 35-6... you know, all of that "pressure" the offense put on their own defense by only scoring 6 points.

Instead, New England's defense kept them in the game and their offense eventually found stride. THAT is how playoff games are won. THAT is why every coach you talk to insists that defense wins in Dec and Jan. THAT is why our coaching staff has gone out and made FULL SCALE changes to our defense and NOT our offense.

Once again, thank god our staff understands these basic football fundamentals.... and thank god Taco is running this board, and NOT our team.

[Popps]

Or.... if you need more recent examples, just check our last two wins. Our defense kept us in the game after a somewhat slow start by our offense. (Though, we did score 14 in the first half.... we didn't control the ball well.)

Our D played well, our offense eventually got in stride and ripped off some big plays.

That's football, folks... not "lets try to trade TDs with manning."

A prototype has been established for winning with the group of players we have. Hopefully it'll continue this weekend.

[Bronx33]

http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/5703/brianbillick80x1092vo.jpg

[scorpio]

Here's a picture of a puppy.

http://lamar.colostate.edu/~cheppner/thegoblin~10-11-05potatoedog.jpg

[errand]

That's just stupid.

We've lost two playoff games in a row by a combined total of Moses's age, and you guys want to make this about Griese. Griese had NOTHING to do with our playoff losses the last two seasons.

Some of you are simply unwilling to face the facts about the weakness of this team... Fine by me. But for cripes sakes, don't whine when I present my case with more supporting arguments and facts.

I'llm ask you the same question I asked in another "hate Jake" thread...

how many games do you see the Broncos winning if our defense allows a 320 yard passer, a 100 yard runner, and a 100 yard receiver and a 95 yard 4th qtr drive with the game on the line?

[errand]

After the Skins first TD they went...

Punt
Punt
Field goal
End of Half
Punt
Blocked Field Goal
Punt
Punt

Yeah, clown...now tell us how many were 3 and outs?

[errand]

I guess our defense just sucks then, huh?

..it stands to reason that if your logic that alot of 3 & outs by an offense = roadblock to success, then surely it can be equally argued that few 3 & outs forced by a defense = the same roadblock to success.

[errand]

Really..then why did I mention the TO's?

You think it's soley Jake's fault. I don't. The real answer will come in the offseason when we see what Shanny does.

Later


...and amazingly, after each time the Colt's made the Broncos lick a cat's ass in the playoffs, what side of the ball did Mike try to fix?

He even traded away alot of offense (3,000 yard rusher named Portis) in order to grab top notch defensive player like Bailey.

If he thought the offense was why we got raped in Indy, then why would Mike, arguably one of the NFL's top coaching talents do everything he could to fix the D?

[errand]

The obvious answer here is balance. No one in their right mind would EXPECT an offense as bad as that Raven's SB offense to win a SB. They had a special defense.

But, when your defense gives up over 60 points in the first half of two playoff games, it doesn't take a genius to see which side of the ball needs emphasis.

There's a REASON the Colts have been taken apart in New England the last two years. DEFENSE. The Colts had the best offense in the league last year, and yet... they fell on their face in New England. Why? New England has a better defense.

Defenses keep you in playoff games. You don't go into a playoff game expecting your offense to have to score 50 points to win.

You shouldn't expect you team to be down 28 points by the second quarter just because your offense took a while to get on track. Need another example? Check said New England game. I think NE had 6 points at the HALF. Now, using Taco-logic, they should have been down 35-6... you know, all of that "pressure" the offense put on their own defense by only scoring 6 points.

Instead, New England's defense kept them in the game and their offense eventually found stride. THAT is how playoff games are won. THAT is why every coach you talk to insists that defense wins in Dec and Jan. THAT is why our coaching staff has gone out and made FULL SCALE changes to our defense and NOT our offense.

Once again, thank god our staff understands these basic football fundamentals.... and thank god Taco is running this board, and NOT our team.

An even better example is John Elway's last game @ Mile High. AFC title game vs NY Jets in '98. He was like 4-14 for about 35 yards....the offense was producing more 3 and outs than Jake could dream of.

Hell our D even game him great field position by forcing 6 turnovers.....according to TJ, we should have been down 35-0, right?

Well it took awhile for the O to get untracked, but because the D held their own against a pretty good O, they kept us in the ball game (forced 6 turnovers) and we eventually walked away from them.

[Old Dude]

You guys can think what you want about Jake, one way or the other.

What I find interesting is that the fewer yards Jake passes for (when starting) the more often we win.

Seriously, his W-L % here is unreal when he throws for under 200 yds.

And every week we hear the same thing, which is that if teams can stop the run, then they can force Jake to throw the ball, and make mistakes.

... Just thinking that it must be kind of weird to have a multi-million dollar job where your employers don't really ever want to see you called upon to do anything.

[errand]

You guys can think what you want about Jake, one way or the other.

What I find interesting is that the fewer yards Jake passes for (when starting) the more often we win.

Seriously, his W-L % here is unreal when he throws for under 200 yds.

And every week we hear the same thing, which is that if teams can stop the run, then they can force Jake to throw the ball, and make mistakes.

... Just thinking that it must be kind of weird to have a multi-million dollar job where your employers don't really ever want to see you called upon to do anything.

I think you'll find those statistics are true for practically every QB in the NFL. Bottom line is that we're throwing because we want to...not because we have to. Not even Peyton Manning can win alot of games where he's forced to throw on every down.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Yeah, clown...now tell us how many were 3 and outs?

What difference does it make? Your defense did it's job while the offense sat there with it's thumb up it's ass.

[FADERPROOF]

...and amazingly, after each time the Colt's made the Broncos lick a cat's ass in the playoffs, what side of the ball did Mike try to fix?

He even traded away alot of offense (3,000 yard rusher named Portis) in order to grab top notch defensive player like Bailey.

If he thought the offense was why we got raped in Indy, then why would Mike, arguably one of the NFL's top coaching talents do everything he could to fix the D?

That really needs to be answered, we lose big in the playoffs and Jake is still here...meanwhile we traded away a perrenial 1500 yard RB for a CB and then another 1200 yard RB for an entier new defensive line, along with signing Ian Gold back.

Our 1st round draft pick 2 years ago, after the first Colts playoff loss, was LB D.J. Williams, then this year we spend our 1st 3 picks on Cornerbacks, weird how that works when it's our offense that failed the defense.

We've done more to improve our special teams(Saurbrun, Keith Burns, Darrent Williams returning punts) than we have our offense, so how do we blame the offense again?

[errand]

What difference does it make? Your defense did it's job while the offense sat there with it's thumb up it's ass.

It makes a huge difference when your D is letting the opposing team dictate the tempo of the game.

[Bronco9798]

...the Ravens defense is giving up twice as many points in the second half of games than they are in the first?

They have given up 30 points total in the first half of games, while they have given up 57 points during the second half. Also, for what it's worth, the Baltimore offense is second to last in scoring and are the sixth worst in the league at turning the ball over.

Hmmm... It's a real headscratcher. I guess their defense just sucks.


It's really not a head-scratcher. This isn't the same defense. Compare rosters from the Ravens Super Bowl Team and this current roster. There's no Sam Adams, Siragusa, Boulware, etc., Adams and Siragusa used to clog the middle and gave Lewis and the LB'ers a lot more movement. You're not seeing that anymore. The personel has changed quite a bit. Just not the same defense.

[baja]

Now wait a minute here... Those guys are on offense. Are you suggesting that the offense is the problem? Clearly you can see that it's the defense that is getting scored on.

Ha ha you tricky dog. I suspected as much when I read the thread title

[baja]

remakinbg your case for our playoff loses

[errand]

That really needs to be answered, we lose big in the playoffs and Jake is still here...meanwhile we traded away a perrenial 1500 yard RB for a CB and then another 1200 yard RB for an entier new defensive line, along with signing Ian Gold back.

Our 1st round draft pick 2 years ago, after the first Colts playoff loss, was LB D.J. Williams, then this year we spend our 1st 3 picks on Cornerbacks, weird how that works when it's our offense that failed the defense.

We've done more to improve our special teams(Saurbrun, Keith Burns, Darrent Williams returning punts) than we have our offense, so how do we blame the offense again?

Mike looks at this team objectively, he wouldn't have a job if he didn't.

From '99-'02 Mike sees the team walk around like a freaking zombie...no leadership, in particularly the most important position - QB.

In '03 he makes a change to Plummer, who while he's not Brian Griese in the intelligence dept...he's also not Brian Griese in the leadership dept. Broncos respond with two consecutive playoff appearances. Broncos get blown out by Colts in '03 playoff game...Mike knows his DB's cannot cover anyone, so he dumps Deltha, and trades a top flight RB for a top flight DB in Bailey.

Broncos respond by making another playoff appearance, only this time he see's his improved secondary betrayed by a lackluster pass rush, and lack of speed and quality depth, and a defense that created few turnovers...so he drafts 3 speed demons who can make plays, perhaps create a few turnovers and tried to upgrade the DL.

Mike made no significant changes on the offensive side of the ball.....because he doesn't think it was why the Colts scored 90 points in two playoff games against us.

[baja]

Mike looks at this team objectively, he wouldn't have a job if he didn't.

From '99-'02 Mike sees the team walk around like a freaking zombie...no leadership, in particularly the most important position - QB.

In '03 he makes a change to Plummer, who while he's not Brian Griese in the intelligence dept...he's also not Brian Griese in the leadership dept. Broncos respond with two consecutive playoff appearances. Broncos get blown out by Colts in '03 playoff game...Mike knows his DB's cannot cover anyone, so he dumps Deltha, and trades a top flight RB for a top flight DB in Bailey.

Broncos respond by making another playoff appearance, only this time he see's his improved secondary betrayed by a lackluster pass rush, and lack of speed and quality depth, and a defense that created few turnovers...so he drafts 3 speed demons who can make plays, perhaps create a few turnovers and tried to upgrade the DL.

Mike made no significant changes on the offensive side of the ball.....because he doesn't think it was why the Colts scored 90 points in two playoff games against us.

Ha ha ha Excellent post errand

[broncosteven]

Here's a picture of a puppy.

http://lamar.colostate.edu/~cheppner/thegoblin~10-11-05potatoedog.jpg


Puppies ROCK but PLEASE put the hot blond back as your avatar or send me her pic!

I am married & need all the stimulation I can get.

BTW Scorpiosnow a friend named his Fantasy Football team "Monkey eat peach" Thought you might be honored if you remember what it was. That post was reason I signed up.

[Rock Chalk]

ROFL!

I'm not here to provide input or amuse you Alec. If you want to entertain yourself have a timeout and go play with your guns.

It's not your board, your not even a moderator, so until then keep coming out with "pearls of wisdom" like the one above!

Maybe if you keep barking, TJ will give you another banning and you'll have some time to cool off.
Somehow Im doubting it. You're not here to amuse, obviously. You are not here for input, obviously. What exactly do you do besides waste good oxygen?

[Popps]

Mike looks at this team objectively, he wouldn't have a job if he didn't.

From '99-'02 Mike sees the team walk around like a freaking zombie...no leadership, in particularly the most important position - QB.

In '03 he makes a change to Plummer, who while he's not Brian Griese in the intelligence dept...he's also not Brian Griese in the leadership dept. Broncos respond with two consecutive playoff appearances. Broncos get blown out by Colts in '03 playoff game...Mike knows his DB's cannot cover anyone, so he dumps Deltha, and trades a top flight RB for a top flight DB in Bailey.

Broncos respond by making another playoff appearance, only this time he see's his improved secondary betrayed by a lackluster pass rush, and lack of speed and quality depth, and a defense that created few turnovers...so he drafts 3 speed demons who can make plays, perhaps create a few turnovers and tried to upgrade the DL.

Mike made no significant changes on the offensive side of the ball.....because he doesn't think it was why the Colts scored 90 points in two playoff games against us.

I've pointed this out 100 times, 100 different ways. Once again, just be thankful that we don't have Taco running our front office. We'd still have Griese at QB, a garbage defense and a laundry list of excuses why the team's problems were caused by everything BUT the QB.

Oddly.... a QB has come in and performed better, and suddenly the team's problems are ALL a result of him.

Perfect.

[Clockwork Orange]

Do you realize that the road to the Superbowl goes straight through the RCA dome?

You'll make this prediction after the Colts go 5-0 while playing only one quality opponent? Please, the Colts are getting fat on cupcakes right now. We'll see what they're made of when they have to go up against the Pats, Steelers, Bengals and Chargers later on in the season. The rest of their schedule is as soft as Charmin.

[errand]

I've pointed this out 100 times, 100 different ways. Once again, just be thankful that we don't have Taco running our front office. We'd still have Griese at QB, a garbage defense and a laundry list of excuses why the team's problems were caused by everything BUT the QB.

Oddly.... a QB has come in and performed better, and suddenly the team's problems are ALL a result of him.

Perfect.

Yeah, I really liked it in another thread when he claimed he "always knew Brian was an average QB" despite blaming everyone but him for our lackluster '99-'02 period, and his knowledge that Brian was "when given protection, the NFL's most efficient QB - bar none" rofl

Jake doesn't bring pinpoint accuracy or the NFL's best field awareness to the table....what he brings is leadership and an infectious never say die attitude.

[Odysseus]

A chicken and an egg are lying in bed.

The chicken is leaning against the
headboard smoking a cigarette,

with a satisfied smile on it's face.
The egg, looking a bit disgusted,

grabs the sheet, rolls over, and says,
"Well, I guess we finally answered

THAT question!"

[-Slap-]

Actually, it totally invalidates your argument, because Baltimore is 7th in TOP. In other words, the defense is getting ample rest throughout the game, yet still folds in the second half. Why? Cause they ain't what they used to be.

Nice try, though.
Actually, TOP is a misleading statistic. Running teams, like Denver and Baltimore rack up more TOP. Having your quarterback run the gameclock down before he takes the snap (a common practice for bad offenses) increases your TOP number, too.

Three and outs are what kill a defense. Look at the number of plays a team has run, compared to the plays against or total yardage to get a better idea of an offense's ability to dictate a game.

Nice effort yourself.

[-Slap-]

An even better example is John Elway's last game @ Mile High. AFC title game vs NY Jets in '98. He was like 4-14 for about 35 yards....the offense was producing more 3 and outs than Jake could dream of.

Hell our D even game him great field position by forcing 6 turnovers.....according to TJ, we should have been down 35-0, right?

Well it took awhile for the O to get untracked, but because the D held their own against a pretty good O, they kept us in the ball game (forced 6 turnovers) and we eventually walked away from them.
If you were a Bronco fan you might remember the wind conditions in that game.

Errand has the unerring ability to take any bad thread and make it infinitely worse.

Watch what he says next.

[-Slap-]

You guys can think what you want about Jake, one way or the other.

What I find interesting is that the fewer yards Jake passes for (when starting) the more often we win.

Seriously, his W-L % here is unreal when he throws for under 200 yds.

And every week we hear the same thing, which is that if teams can stop the run, then they can force Jake to throw the ball, and make mistakes.

... Just thinking that it must be kind of weird to have a multi-million dollar job where your employers don't really ever want to see you called upon to do anything.

Telling people the truth, but they don't want to hear it.

[BroncoInferno]

Actually, TOP is a misleading statistic. Running teams, like Denver and Baltimore rack up more TOP. Having your quarterback run the gameclock down before he takes the snap (a common practice for bad offenses) increases your TOP number, too.

Three and outs are what kill a defense. Look at the number of plays a team has run, compared to the plays against or total yardage to get a better idea of an offense's ability to dictate a game.

Nice effort yourself.

I actually agree with Taco's overall premise that a poor offensive performance can have a negative impact on the defense. The thing is, the reverse is true also. I'm sorry, but to claim that it was the offense putting pressure on the defense in the Indy games is the heigth of absurdity. In fact, the reverse was true. We had only played one offensive series in that game and were already in a 14-0 hole. This is clearly a case of the defense putting pressure on the offense to match scores with Peyton Manning.

Now, a better game to support Taco's premise is the Miami game. The D gave the offense ample opportunity to dicate the pace of the game, holding Miami to 6 points through 2.5 quarters and forcing a turnover or two. But to have the defense put the offense in a 14-0 hole after only one offensive possession, and then blame the offense? The only response to that is ROFL!

[Northman]

If you were a Bronco fan you might remember the wind conditions in that game.

Errand has the unerring ability to take any bad thread and make it infinitely worse.

Watch what he says next.


Indeed, the wind was out of control in that game. we caught a huge break on the kickoff when the ball bounced back upfield. ;)

[-Slap-]

I actually agree with Taco's overall premise that a poor offensive performance can have a negative impact on the defense. The thing is, the reverse is true also. I'm sorry, but to claim that it was the offense putting pressure on the defense in the Indy games is the heigth of absurdity. In fact, the reverse was true. We had only played one offensive series in that game and were already in a 14-0 hole. This is clearly a case of the defense putting pressure on the offense to match scores with Peyton Manning.

Its amazing how often people like to dredge up the Colts game. The defense, including the injury depleted secondary, played like garbage.

Jake Plummer was bathed in flop sweat during the entire first half.

Both units sucked. I'll never understand what gems of wisdom are supposed to be yielded from games where everything went wrong. Nontheless, we insist on breaking this game down virtually play by play.

Think about it. We faced the most lethal passing offense since Air Coryell, on the road, with multiple injuries in our secondary. That put tremendous pressure on the defense and on the offense. Its also not a true indicator of the talent on either squad.

Should we judge John Elway's career by the San Francisco Super Bowl, or by the totality of his career in big games? Its just as pointless to isolate one total team meltdown and try to determine who sucked worse.

[BroncoInferno]

Its amazing how often people like to dredge up the Colts game. The defense, including the injury depleted secondary, played like garbage.

Jake Plummer was bathed in flop sweat during the entire first half.

Both units sucked. I'll never understand what gems of wisdom are supposed to be yielded from games where everything went wrong. Nontheless, we insist on breaking this game down virtually play by play.

Think about it. We faced the most lethal passing offense since Air Coryell, on the road, with multiple injuries in our secondary. That put tremendous pressure on the defense and on the offense. Its also not a true indicator of the talent on either squad.

Should we judge John Elway's career by the San Francisco Super Bowl, or by the totality of his career in big games? Its just as pointless to isolate one total team meltdown and try to determine who sucked worse.

Hell, Slap, I agree with you. Taco is the one who has spent the last few months blaming Jake Plummer and the offense for "hanging the defense out to dry" against Indy. Both units sucked ass, IMHO. But if you are going to play the game of assessing who deserves more blame, it's really absurd to point at the offense who was already in a 14-0 hole after only playing one series. When you get into a hole against a team who you know is going to continue piling it on, it tends to limit your gameplan. Really, the gameplan goes out the goddamn window.

[scorpio]

Puppies ROCK but PLEASE put the hot blond back as your avatar or send me her pic!

I am married & need all the stimulation I can get.

BTW Scorpiosnow a friend named his Fantasy Football team "Monkey eat peach" Thought you might be honored if you remember what it was. That post was reason I signed up.

Here you go, bro. I hope your friend can be trusted with "Monkey Eats the Peach". Such ancient ninja techniques are not to be used lightly! ;)

http://lamar.colostate.edu/~cheppner/avatar.jpg

[scorpio]

I can't believe 4 people repped me for the puppy picture and nobody repped me for the Topless Sports News. You people need to get your priorities straight.

[-Slap-]

Hell, Slap, I agree with you. Taco is the one who has spent the last few months blaming Jake Plummer and the offense for "hanging the defense out to dry" against Indy. Both units sucked ass, IMHO. But if you are going to play the game of assessing who deserves more blame, it's really absurd to point at the offense who was already in a 14-0 hole after only playing one series. When you get into a hole against a team who you know is going to continue piling it on, it tends to limit your gameplan. Really, the gameplan goes out the goddamn window.

Hell, if anybody wants to take Jake Plummer to task, the game in San Diego is the one that slammed the nails in our coffin. Its over, though. The whole team is better constructed now. Let's win the close games by protecting the football and playing sound fundamental defense. That's the way we'll win the turnover battles consistently. Everyone pretty much agrees that's one of the major keys to victory.

In 2003, Jake threw seven picks in 302 attempts. One int per every 43.1 attempts.

In 2004, Jake threw a League leading 20 picks in 521 attempts. One int per every 26 attempts.

Regression is not what I look for in a quarterback, but that's what we saw last year. That's why we're playing things a lot tighter this year.

This season Jake has only three picks in 154 attempts. Since two of those picks came against Miami, he's doing exactly what the coaching staff wants right now.

In defense of Jake, some of the three and outs this year might have been converted by more agressive playcalling. The tradeoff is that we might have a few more turnovers, too. Personally, I like the more conservative approach. I would rather win ugly consistently than have the Jeckyl and Hyde team that we've seen the last few years.

[DivineLegion]

TJ is this in some way pertaining to our near 4th quarter melt down to the Skins and our loss to the Phins?

[Taco John]

This is clearly a case of the defense putting pressure on the offense to match scores with Peyton Manning.


I'm aware of that. And I'm also aware that our offense had it's chances. And I'm also aware that they didn't take them. I expected a team like Indianapolis to score. They were the league leading scoring offense, with a quarterback on fire. The only way we were going to beat them was to score against them.

My problem isn't just with Jake. But he's been the symbol of what's been wrong with our offense, starting with his two month long collapse last year. I'm not judging him by one game. I judged him based on a season long performance that started out with left handed interceptions from our own endzone, and ended with a collapse that saw him blowing the division championship game, and stumbling the rest of his way through. So far so good this year, but when we get in trouble and find ourselves two touchdowns out, I don't have any confidence that Jake can bring us back. I don't see what he's done to inspire that confidence. Remind me if you have examples.

Yeah, sure the defense has to break down to get us to the point where we were behind in the Indianapolis game. But that how the league is designed. Rules are put in place to assist offenses in this league, not defenses. Indy was known last year for having the best offense and a bad defense and we still couldn't take advantage of their weakness.

The bottom line is that we need balance, not be top heavy on one side of the ball and expect them to carry us through the fire. Against Indy, that balance would have come if Jake had the ability to lead us to a score. That's indisputable. If we would have put up a score or two in the first half, we'd have been in that game. You just can't deny that. Just like if we would have held Indianapolis to NO SCORES during that first half, we'd have been in that game. But I'm a pragmatist and I look at what is the most and least likely to happen. Keeping Indianapolis out of the endzone seems to me like the least likely thing to happen. They were the best offense in the league... They're going to score. Conversely, scoring on Indianapolis's defense seems like the most likely to happen. They had one of the worst defenses in the league. So why couldn't we exploit that? Not to mention the terrible INTs Jake threw.

We have plenty of games to play, and Jake will have plenty of opportunities to prove himself this year. He knows that he hasn't exactly been playing stellar football, and it comes through in his quotes. He's a very likable guy as far as that goes, because he takes it upon himself. We're playing safe football which is fine, until the point in time comes that the defense slips and we need the offense to bail us out. I just want to believe that Jake has that ability. Unfortunately, right now, I don't.

[Sean]

Regression is not what I look for in a quarterback, but that's what we saw last year. That's why we're playing things a lot tighter this year.


I want to know what you mean by playing tighter. TJ says we limit our offense because of Jake's inability, you say we are playing tighter. I say we are limiting turnovers. I can see where playing tighter and limiting turnovers can be construed as the same thing ... but I don't see us limiting our offense because of Jake.

I've seen every throw made this year by Jake that I've always seen in this offense. The fade route that sealed our doom in San Diego? I've seen it at least twice this year, both for TD's to Lelie. Perhaps Lelie is the better target for that particular throw.

I've seen Jake stand in the pocket and throw over the middle, I've seen him roll out and run in for a TD, or roll out and heave the ball downfield. I've seen him throw to the tight ends, wide receivers, fullbacks ... we're running play-action to perfection at times, just like usual ... looks to me like we're including everyone.

So, by saying we're playing things tighter, are you saying we chopped the playbook? Or are you saying what I'm saying, that Jake has been instructed to throw the ball away or take a sack instead of trying to force a play?

[errand]

If you were a Bronco fan you might remember the wind conditions in that game.

Errand has the unerring ability to take any bad thread and make it infinitely worse.

Watch what he says next.

I've probably forgotten more about the Broncos than you'll ever know...but that's another debate.

So your blaming our poor offensive showing in the early parts of that game on the wind?

...and yet oddly, Jake throwing a waterlogged ball isn't deserving of the same standard? And before you start with the Brunell threw the same wet ball crap.....I also recall Vinny throwing tight spirals with pin point accuracy in that same wind your whining about.

[-Slap-]

I always like to give Errand an extra opportunity to push Old Number 7 under the bus. He never disappoints, either.

I don't remember criticizing Jake's performance in the cold and wet last week. I think I've been fairly complimentary to him for following the gameplan and not forcing things this year.

Ah, well...one day I can only hope to acquire Errand's level of knowledge about the Broncos. Then I'll realize that Dan Reeves was more integral to the team's success than John Elway.

[Odysseus]

I can't believe 4 people repped me for the puppy picture and nobody repped me for the Topless Sports News. You people need to get your priorities straight.

I think it's really jacked up how rep really works.

[Odysseus]

I like the more conservative approach. I would rather win ugly consistently than have the Jeckyl and Hyde team that we've seen the last few years.

It's hard to argue with the results.

[TheReverend]

...the Ravens defense is giving up twice as many points in the second half of games than they are in the first?

They have given up 30 points total in the first half of games, while they have given up 57 points during the second half. Also, for what it's worth, the Baltimore offense is second to last in scoring and are the sixth worst in the league at turning the ball over.

Hmmm... It's a real headscratcher. I guess their defense just sucks.

Look at the Miami game tape... when the O cant give the D a rest, mayhem ensues in the 2nd half.

[TheReverend]

I'm aware of that. And I'm also aware that our offense had it's chances. And I'm also aware that they didn't take them. I expected a team like Indianapolis to score. They were the league leading scoring offense, with a quarterback on fire. The only way we were going to beat them was to score against them.

My problem isn't just with Jake. But he's been the symbol of what's been wrong with our offense, starting with his two month long collapse last year. I'm not judging him by one game. I judged him based on a season long performance that started out with left handed interceptions from our own endzone, and ended with a collapse that saw him blowing the division championship game, and stumbling the rest of his way through. So far so good this year, but when we get in trouble and find ourselves two touchdowns out, I don't have any confidence that Jake can bring us back. I don't see what he's done to inspire that confidence. Remind me if you have examples.

Yeah, sure the defense has to break down to get us to the point where we were behind in the Indianapolis game. But that how the league is designed. Rules are put in place to assist offenses in this league, not defenses. Indy was known last year for having the best offense and a bad defense and we still couldn't take advantage of their weakness.

The bottom line is that we need balance, not be top heavy on one side of the ball and expect them to carry us through the fire. Against Indy, that balance would have come if Jake had the ability to lead us to a score. That's indisputable. If we would have put up a score or two in the first half, we'd have been in that game. You just can't deny that. Just like if we would have held Indianapolis to NO SCORES during that first half, we'd have been in that game. But I'm a pragmatist and I look at what is the most and least likely to happen. Keeping Indianapolis out of the endzone seems to me like the least likely thing to happen. They were the best offense in the league... They're going to score. Conversely, scoring on Indianapolis's defense seems like the most likely to happen. They had one of the worst defenses in the league. So why couldn't we exploit that? Not to mention the terrible INTs Jake threw.

We have plenty of games to play, and Jake will have plenty of opportunities to prove himself this year. He knows that he hasn't exactly been playing stellar football, and it comes through in his quotes. He's a very likable guy as far as that goes, because he takes it upon himself. We're playing safe football which is fine, until the point in time comes that the defense slips and we need the offense to bail us out. I just want to believe that Jake has that ability. Unfortunately, right now, I don't.

Somebody else wrote this right? I know you hate jake but this is ridiculous.

A. Division championship game: Denver/SD right? The game that wouldve swung us to AFCW champs? Funny thing, Reggie Hayward couldnt fall on the Lynch fumble... Mr Reliable, Rod Smith couldnt catch the ball that hit him in the hands in the end-zone and bounced OUT into the defenders hands as an INT... but yes, JAKE lost that game for us.

B. Most QBs cant dig out of a 2 TD deficit... thats just an asanine statement... especially considering Plummer has one of the best 4th quarter comeback ratings.

Please put some thought into Bronco bashing (Like I put into stating Mike Anderson sucks).

[TheReverend]

TJ is this in some way pertaining to our near 4th quarter melt down to the Skins and our loss to the Phins?

What Effing 4th quarter melt?!?!?

Situation: 21-10, youre the head coach, what do you do?

Play the same aggressive D and O that you have been playing and hope a 4th quarter catrosphy (like Washington/Dallas) doesnt happen to you

OR

Drop the safeties back, give up short yardage plays and stop the big play and when on O ground out what you can of the clock regardless.

But yeah... big meltdown considering WE WON THE GAME.

Idiot.

[Odysseus]

Please put some thought into Bronco bashing (Like I put into stating Mike Anderson sucks).

The only person who can prove Taco wrong is Jake Plummer. It's a pretty safe bet. All he wants is one playoff win right?

If Jake tanks Taco was right all along and we are all dumb homers for believing in the team.

If the team goes 10-7 Taco wins because he can claim right or wrong that if they had a stronger offense they could have won that game even if the Defense doesn't even step foot on the field.

If the team wins the first round of the playoffs Taco was still right because Jake proved he was good enough and he'll only have to take maybe a dozen posts and a couple of threads.

If the teams wins the Superbowl at this point Taco is right again because he was inspiration behind Jake Dilfer. He said a mobile Trent Dilfer. Geez. Fellas what do you want from a guy.

No matter what anybody says TJ has got you all played.

[-Slap-]

Somebody else wrote this right? I know you hate jake but this is ridiculous.

A. Division championship game: Denver/SD right? The game that wouldve swung us to AFCW champs? Funny thing, Reggie Hayward couldnt fall on the Lynch fumble... Mr Reliable, Rod Smith couldnt catch the ball that hit him in the hands in the end-zone and bounced OUT into the defenders hands as an INT... but yes, JAKE lost that game for us.
Wow.

I couldn't believe Jake Plummer's MOM would have defended that unbelieveably up-the-**** excuse for a fade pass that Plummer put on the goalline, instead of in the corner of the end zone, where the goddamn ball is supposed to be on that pattern.

Instead, you're going to throw Rod Smith under the bus?

Unfriggingbelievable. Textbook case of auto-hypnosis, or you truly believe that pass wasn't a good ten yards short of where it was supposed to be thrown.

I don't know where Taco gets the energy to argue with that kind of logic.

[-Slap-]

Just one of four interceptions that day, I might add. I love that you chose the most egregious one to defend.

Here's an interesting tidbit of information for you. Jake audibled to that play and then executed it as poorly as humanly possible.

First and goal and the dumbass audibles to a fade pattern then totally ****s it up. Any question why we're tightening the reins on him?

[Northman]

What Effing 4th quarter melt?!?!?

Situation: 21-10, youre the head coach, what do you do?

Play the same aggressive D and O that you have been playing and hope a 4th quarter catrosphy (like Washington/Dallas) doesnt happen to you

OR

Drop the safeties back, give up short yardage plays and stop the big play and when on O ground out what you can of the clock regardless.

But yeah... big meltdown considering WE WON THE GAME.

Idiot.



it was a meltdown to a degree and we could have easily lost that game. what the **** were you watching there? talk about idiocy.

[Odysseus]

I don't know where Taco gets the energy to argue with that kind of logic.

--His energy comes from math. He can't lose.

The only person who can prove Taco wrong is Jake Plummer. It's a pretty safe bet. All he wants is one playoff win right?

If Jake tanks Taco was right all along and we are all dumb homers for believing in the team.

If the team goes 10-7 Taco wins because he can claim right or wrong that if they had a stronger offense they could have won that game even if the Defense doesn't even step foot on the field.

If the team wins the first round of the playoffs Taco was still right because Jake proved he was good enough and he'll only have to take maybe a dozen posts and a couple of threads.

If the teams wins the Superbowl at this point Taco is right again because he was inspiration behind Jake Dilfer. He said a mobile Trent Dilfer. Geez. Fellas what do you want from a guy.

No matter what anybody says TJ has got you all played

[-Slap-]

I'm not here to delve that deeply into Orange Mane Politics.

I'm just saying you can't defend the worst pass Plummer threw all year and simultaneously blame the best player on the team for Jake's blunder.

[Ballhawk]

It is amazing that there are so many discussions on Jake over if he is slightly above or below average QB. No one in their right mind could call him great or crap. He is averagish all the way. I think he can get the job done and he will improve as the season goes on, however he still is the weakest link.

[-Slap-]

It is amazing that there are so many discussions on Jake over if he is slightly above or below average QB. No one in their right mind could call him great or crap. He is averagish all the way. I think he can get the job done and he will improve as the season goes on, however he still is the weakest link.
That's usually the que for someone to make a snarky comment about Taco deliberately trying to goose the post count.

[Rock Chalk]

It is amazing that there are so many discussions on Jake over if he is slightly above or below average QB. No one in their right mind could call him great or crap. He is averagish all the way. I think he can get the job done and he will improve as the season goes on, however he still is the weakest link.
Jake isn't the weakest link on the team. He aint the strongest link, but he aint the weakest link either.

[Sean]

Oh man, that "limited" offense is rearing it's ugly head.

[Odysseus]

Oh man, that "limited" offense is rearing it's ugly head.

Are you talking about the long play by Rod? Bell? or Lelie?

EDIT: Hey Putzier and Kyle Johnson were in the game.

[Sean]

Are you talking about the long play by Rod? Bell? or Lelie?

Any and all. The play in general. I don't exactly view it as limited.

[Taco John]

Jake is having a hell of a good game so far... I'm duly impressed.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Jake is having a hell of a good game so far... I'm duly impressed.

Yep. That throw to Lelie was impressive.

[-Slap-]

Its amazing how many big plays will present themselves when you stop chasing them. The long balls are beautiful, but even prettier is another nice round 0 in the turnover column.

[Odysseus]

Its amazing how many big plays will present themselves when you stop chasing them. The long balls are beautiful, but even prettier is another nice round 0 in the turnover column.

I just got a love tap for saying this same statement. This is exactly what they need to stand on.