Speculation: Anyone think Lelie will ask to be traded?

[Taco John]

If I'm Ashley Lelie, I'm asking for a trade this offseason. Lelie is in his fourth year of a five year contract, and it's clear he's talented. It's also clear he's not going to put up the kind of numbers that he could put up if he was in a different offense.

Putting myself in Lelie's shoes, I imagine that Lelie is a confident kid who believes he can play in this league. But 2006 is a contract year for him, and his last shot to really show something to the league in order to get his 2007 pay day.

If I'm Lelie I'm probably not thinking of coming back to Denver.

I think we should trade him this offseason in order to avoid seeing him sign as a free agent in Oakland, KC, or San Diego. I doubt he's coming back here, and the last thing I want to see is him ending up with a division rival.

[Dr. Broncenstein]

Dude stunk up the field today... he should ask for some pine tar or superglue...

[watermock]

I think it's much more likely that DJ Williams will grab the first train out of town but he's fairly hogtied at this point.

I don't know...It just seems like you don't get a hell of alot for underachievers in this league. I think it would be insane to get rid of Lelie at this point with Rod Smith so close to the end of the road. I noticed Watts had another huge game today as well.

I know it was horrible weather, but 92 yards is attrocious, and Brunell managed 322 on the road.

[Ballhawk]

TJ- I suggested this is preseason. I thought a package deal to Minn would have been a good spot, and they ended up selecting a deep threat WR at that spot anyways.

I have mentioned before that we are mismatched on O, with good talent that just does not fit together.

[Taco John]

Dude stunk up the field today... he should ask for some pine tar or superglue...


The hell he did. He delivered the game winning Touchdown.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

I don't think he has much trade value.

[Taco John]

I think it's much more likely that DJ Williams will grab the first train out of town but he's fairly hogtied at this point.

I don't know...It just seems like you don't get a hell of alot for underachievers in this league. I think it would be insane to get rid of Lelie at this point with Rod Smith so close to the end of the road. I noticed Watts had another huge game today as well.



DJ is stuck, and we have a franchise tag to make sure of it. I doubt we'd use that tag on Lelie though.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

The hell he did. He delivered the game winning Touchdown.

How was his touchdown more "game-winning" than either of Bell's?

[Taco John]

I don't think he has much trade value.


I don't put a lot of stock in your player e/valuations. You know the game, but you are too much of a homer when it comes to evaluating talent.

[watermock]

I just looked at the gamebook and Watts didn't have a catch...I don't remember him getting thrown to even!, but the radio feed was shakey today.

[Taco John]

How was his touchdown more "game-winning" than either of Bell's?


Who said it was?

What's the score without Lelie's touchdown?

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Well, I didn't say he didn't have ANY. What were you expecting for him? Something more than a 4th rounder?

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Who said it was?

What's the score without Lelie's touchdown?

What's the score without Bell's?

Bell's last TD turned out to be the "game winner."

[Dr. Broncenstein]

The hell he did. He delivered the game winning Touchdown.

I forgot about the nice grab over the 6th string cornerback in man coverage... probably because I keep thinking about the passes that hit him between the left and right hand and squirt on through...

[Taco John]

I forgot about the nice grab over the 6th string cornerback in man coverage... probably because I keep thinking about the passes that hit him between the left and right hand and squirt on through...



He had two good passes thrown at him all day, and one was perfectly defended

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Are you looking to trade Lelie for another WR? Sort of like the Antonio Bryant / Quincy Morgan deal?

[Taco John]

Are you looking to trade Lelie for another WR? Sort of like the Antonio Bryant / Quincy Morgan deal?


I'm looking to trade Lelie to prevent him from joining another AFC West team in free agency. Whether that trade is for another player, or as part of a draft pick package is pretty much immaterial to me.

[Dr. Broncenstein]

He had two good passes thrown at him all day, and one was perfectly defended

One on the opening drive where he was wide open... and another drive killer in the fourth.. aside from the perfectly defended pass that should be money in the bank.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

I'd love to have Lelie in KC. We seem to do well with former Denver WRs. ;D

[Dr. Broncenstein]

I'd love to have Lelie in KC. We seem to do well with former Denver WRs. ;D

Gonzo for Lelie...

[Taco John]

One on the opening drive where he was wide open... and another drive killer in the fourth.. aside from the perfectly defended pass that should be money in the bank.


Yeah... I just wish Lelie could have kept up with the wild success that all of our other receivers experienced out there on Sunday.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Gonzo for Lelie...

I think Taco just got done saying he doesn't want to trade Ash within the Division.

[Popps]

Lelie isn't worth a squirt of pi$$ in a trade. No one in their right minds would trade more than a 4th rounder or so for this guy. Now you've got people blaming Jake for this guy sucking. First pass was right in his mitts today and he dropped it. He finally caught a TD. (Week 5)

I'd love to see the stats of how much this guy's been thrown to, and his subsequent completion percentage v. Rod Smith and even other receivers. Like I said before, Griese couldn't get any chemistry with him, either. Now Plummer manages to have great chemistry with Smith and even guys like Adams, but never with Lelie.

I'll dance a friggin' jig if we get anything decent for him in a trade. I never liked the idea of bringing in a scrawny, novelty receiver to this offense... and I still don't. I hope he proves me wrong, but he's been a disappointment, to say the least.

[Taco John]

Lelie isn't worth a squirt of pi$$ in a trade. No one in their right minds would trade more than a 4th rounder or so for this guy. Now you've got people blaming Jake for this guy sucking. First pass was right in his mitts today and he dropped it. He finally caught a TD. (Week 5)

I'd love to see the stats of how much this guy's been thrown to, and his subsequent completion percentage v. Rod Smith and even other receivers. Like I said before, Griese couldn't get any chemistry with him, either. Now Plummer manages to have great chemistry with Smith and even guys like Adams, but never with Lelie.

I'll dance a friggin' jig if we get anything decent for him in a trade. I never liked the idea of bringing in a scrawny, novelty receiver to this offense... and I still don't. I hope he proves me wrong, but he's been a disappointment, to say the least.



Plummer has great chemistry with anyone? Why is it that I've heard rumors that Rod was ready to throw him overboard at the end of last season then? And who could blame him?

[wabbit]

I hate to agree with ol' 'Bob...I really do...but, barring an unlikely change of gears with the Denver offense, I just don't see a lot of trade value in Lelie.

Also, the coaching staff really does admire the kids' work ethic and efforts to get better.

I also understand that his talents aren't particularly useful for a QB who prefers dink & doink to heave-ho.

Given his relatively thin frame, I can't see him ever developing into a possession-style WR, and given Plummers catch-as-catch-can accuracy, I can't see him ever becoming a consistent deep threat here either.

He's a Ferrari on a dirt track, unfortunately...I'm not sure what the answer is, assuming there is one.

[watermock]

Well...92 yards recieving isn't going to get it done if we are trailing and shakin' jake is pressing...we managed a lead on sunday, but there was production that wouldn't of made Ryan Leaf proud.

[Taco John]

He's a Ferrari on a dirt track, unfortunately...I'm not sure what the answer is, assuming there is one.



I think he's got value because other NFL guys have to see he's a Ferrari on a dirt track, and he doesn't need to be on that dirt track. I don't think he's the kind of player that we can just put up for grabs. I think it would have to be a creative deal... Maybe the kind of deal where you package your two first rounders and throw in a wide receiver in order to move up to a favorable spot in a draft... or something...

[Taco John]

Now you've got people blaming Jake for this guy sucking.


This is exactly the mentality why If I was Lelie, I'd be either demanding being outright released or traded. For Lelie to be burdened with Jake's problems is unfair to the guy, when he's got his own to deal with.

[Ballhawk]

I think Minn would have jumped all over Lelie and our first for the #7 pick this last year. We could have gone after Mike Williams (who Minny didn't like). That would have been a much better target for Plummer.

[Dr. Broncenstein]

And Ed Reed was sitting right there... ohhhh, it hurts...

[Taco John]

And Ed Reed was sitting right there... ohhhh, it hurts...


Badly... :sickortir

[wabbit]

I think he's got value because other NFL guys have to see he's a Ferrari on a dirt track, and he doesn't need to be on that dirt track. I don't think he's the kind of player that we can just put up for grabs. I think it would have to be a creative deal... Maybe the kind of deal where you package your two first rounders and throw in a wide receiver in order to move up to a favorable spot in a draft... or something...


OK, judging by Minnesota's start for example, AND the fact that their offense clearly needs a Randy Moss-type WR...maybe a trade of draft positions or something like that might be possible.

I know Shanahan really likes just 'having' that threat, and I'm betting he wants to keep him around...that is, barring some great (read that: inexpensive) 'find' this staff is always looking for.

I think if you could ask Shanahan directly, he would tell you Lelie is doing exactly what the team wants him to do...excepting the dropped passes (among the few & proud that are on target).

Might be a question to pose to him this week after Sunday's game...'what role do you really see for Lelie beyond the deep threat'....and 'is there a role here you see beyond the occassional deep ball for Lelie'.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

So, would Denver bring in an experienced WR through free agency if this happened? I think this may be Rod's final year.

[Taco John]

So, would Denver bring in an experienced WR through free agency if this happened? I think this may be Rod's final year.


Myself, I think that's a foregone conclusion... Except the Rod's final year crap. Whoever you hire to do your thinking should be fired.

[Dr. Broncenstein]

I heard Marcus Nash was tearing it up in the arena leagues..

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Myself, I think that's a foregone conclusion... Except the Rod's final year crap. Whoever you hire to do your thinking should be fired.

He's not getting any younger. I don't know if he wants to spend another year getting pounded by safeties because Plummer throws the ball behind him.

How many WRs in this league play past 35?

[Taco John]

How many WRs in this league play past 35?


Just the special ones.

[Ballhawk]

Im really liking adams. Who knows he could become a great RAC type WR.

[Dr. Broncenstein]

Adams and Devoe....

[Bronco Yoda]

Lelie must have concentration problems, mental block or something. Sure, he's becoming good at the over-the-head circus catches but can't seem to hold onto the easy ones between the numbers.

perhaps he's thinking too much where he's going to go before he catches the easy ones in stride rather than the over the head ones that he knows he's going to fall anyway. ..... I don't know.

He reminds me of one of those catchers in baseball with a mental block that can throw a rope to second base but can't lob one back to the pitcher to save his life.

[Taco John]

perhaps he's thinking too much where he's going to go before he catches the easy ones in stride rather than the over the head ones that he knows he's going to fall anyway. ..... I don't know.



I'd be interested in seeing a breakdown of just how many passes are thrown to him in stride...

[ZachKC]

I'd be interested in seeing a breakdown of just how many passes are thrown to him in stride...
That sounds like a good idea for an NFL stat period. Kind of like how soccer has shots and shots on target. It would be pretty tough to judge I imagine...

[Dr. Broncenstein]

I'd be interested in seeing a breakdown of just how many passes are thrown to him in stride...

add in the incomplete passes that hit him between hands 1 and 2....

[Bob's your Information Minister]

I'd be interested in seeing a breakdown of just how many passes are thrown to him in stride...

I dunno, but check his splits out.

2005:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/splits?playerId=3547

2004:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/splits?playerId=3547&year=2004

[Bob's your Information Minister]

I have to say I'm shocked he only caught one pass in the redzone last year.

[The Snake]

I think it's much more likely that DJ Williams will grab the first train out of town but he's fairly hogtied at this point.

I don't know...It just seems like you don't get a hell of alot for underachievers in this league. I think it would be insane to get rid of Lelie at this point with Rod Smith so close to the end of the road. I noticed Watts had another huge game today as well.

I know it was horrible weather, but 92 yards is attrocious, and Brunell managed 322 on the road.
Whoa. I forgot about DJ Williams. Is he injured right now? Or is he backup now since Ian Gold returned?

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Whoa. I forgot about DJ Williams. Is he injured right now? Or is he backup now since Ian Gold returned?

He's the LOLB. Not doing much apparently.

[Ballhawk]

Whoa. I forgot about DJ Williams. Is he injured right now? Or is he backup now since Ian Gold returned?

No he is still part of "The Flow"

[Northman]

The hell he did. He delivered the game winning Touchdown.


emm, have to kind of disagree with you there TJ. yes, he made a good catch there but could have sealed the deal with that late bomb from Jake. that was right in his hands and would have gotten us at least another 3 pts. he blew it there when we needed it most.

[Odysseus]

And Ed Reed was sitting right there... ohhhh, it hurts...


STOP! IT BURNS! IT BURNS!

[Eli_Cash]

I like the fact the W's are coming in and the offense has yet to really mesh together. May never happen but I think we'll be good enough to compete every week.
Same as every other year this century.

Our biggest strength is defenses don't know what we're gonna do because we don't really know either.

Each week its somebody else stepping up.

Thats a recipe for success or one ripe for problems.

All things considered, the Broncos will go as their December play goes.



Lelie is like a flush draw that doesn't hit.



Still thinks he puts a run together this year though........

[Bob's your Information Minister]

STOP! IT BURNS! IT BURNS!

How do you think KC fans feel? We could have had Dwight Freeney.

[Dr. Broncenstein]

How do you think KC fans feel? We could have had Dwight Freeney.

Ryan Sims... :militia:

[Goobzilla]

Jake and Ashley can't be totally successful at the same time. For Jake to be successful he has to manage the game, short to intermediate throws to keep the opposition from filling the box against the run game.

Like someone else posted, Shanny won't cut it loose unless the run game isn't there. If the running game is working it equals team success but not necessarily #85's success. Although I think there should definitely be more play action passing going on, especially when you're wearing the D out on the ground. Ashley "should" be the prime beneficiary of this, but for a multitude of reasons it hasn't worked out this year.

[meangene]

Let's call it like it is. In this offense, for whatever reason, Lelie sucks. There was a conscious effort to get him the ball early yesterday and he didn't step up. The pass is not always going to be perfect. Go and get it! I wasn't willing to say it until yesterday but Adams and Watts, yes Watts, need to start getting reps at Lelie's expense. We need another reliable receiver and Lelie is not it. Hell yes we should look to trade Lelie after this season. Someone will be enamored with his "potential". It's obvious we need to draft at least one receiver (probably two) early next year.

I also think we need to get Bell and Putzier on the field more to give us more of the big play threat with Lelie getting less reps. Last week I said I thought he was more dissapointment than bust. I'm leaning towards bust. I would have kicked the onside kick at him too.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

And Ed Reed was sitting right there... ohhhh, it hurts...

Get off this dream people. Ed Reed was not going to be the pick, he wasn't even one of Shanahan's five targets. If Lelie was gone, the pick would have been Javon Walker.

[Odysseus]

Get off this dream people. Ed Reed was not going to be the pick, he wasn't even one of Shanahan's five targets. If Lelie was gone, the pick would have been Javon Walker.

IT HURTS! IT HURTS! MAKE IT STOP!!

[Atlas]

If I'm Ashley Lelie, I'm asking for a trade this offseason. Lelie is in his fourth year of a five year contract, and it's clear he's talented. It's also clear he's not going to put up the kind of numbers that he could put up if he was in a different offense.

Putting myself in Lelie's shoes, I imagine that Lelie is a confident kid who believes he can play in this league. But 2006 is a contract year for him, and his last shot to really show something to the league in order to get his 2007 pay day.

If I'm Lelie I'm probably not thinking of coming back to Denver.

I think we should trade him this offseason in order to avoid seeing him sign as a free agent in Oakland, KC, or San Diego. I doubt he's coming back here, and the last thing I want to see is him ending up with a division rival.

I'd trade Plummer before I trade Lelie.

[fontaine]

It doesn't matter if Lelie is traded or not. If he ever wants to be a major WR, instead of just a one dimensional deep ball WR, then he's going to have to get off the line better and fight for the ball in traffic consistently.

We don't need to throw 30-40 yard passes to Lelie to suit his style of football. Why can't Lelie use his speed and big play ability for those intermediate 15-20 yard passes?

It's comical to me that one of the reasons used to excuse Lelie's lack of production is that we don't throw more deep passes when it's quite clear that Lelie has only one major asset and that's his deep speed. He doesn't have short area explosiveness, or the route running ability in and out of his cuts to be a reliable WR. A first year rookie in Watts was running better routes than him and so far, even though Lelie is trying hard, he's not improving significantly in all the small areas that make a good multi-purpose WR.

[fontaine]

I'd trade Plummer before I trade Lelie.

Why? There are always plenty of WRs available every offseason that are purely deep threat guys and play special teams as well.

[Atlas]

Lelie must have concentration problems, mental block or something. Sure, he's becoming good at the over-the-head circus catches but can't seem to hold onto the easy ones between the numbers.

perhaps he's thinking too much where he's going to go before he catches the easy ones in stride rather than the over the head ones that he knows he's going to fall anyway. ..... I don't know.

He reminds me of one of those catchers in baseball with a mental block that can throw a rope to second base but can't lob one back to the pitcher to save his life.


What easy passes are you talking about? That first pass that he "dropped"? I looked at that again. Lelie is wide open, I mean wide open he is going to catch it and he is going to get a few yards after the catch and what happens? Plummer throws the ball at his feet!! It's amazing a simple pass but yet he makes Lelie have to work for it. It was a catchable ball yes, but christ Jake can't you hit a WR in stride just once?

[Play2win]

I hate to agree with ol' 'Bob...I really do...but, barring an unlikely change of gears with the Denver offense, I just don't see a lot of trade value in Lelie.

Also, the coaching staff really does admire the kids' work ethic and efforts to get better.

I also understand that his talents aren't particularly useful for a QB who prefers dink & doink to heave-ho.

Given his relatively thin frame, I can't see him ever developing into a possession-style WR, and given Plummers catch-as-catch-can accuracy, I can't see him ever becoming a consistent deep threat here either.

He's a Ferrari on a dirt track, unfortunately...I'm not sure what the answer is, assuming there is one.

The Answer is to get a new QB sooner than later...

ASH is gonna be a great asset, but we need a QB with more consistent and more "Accurate" Accuracy. I think we get a guy either this off-season or the next. Hopefully this off-season. ;D

[eddie mac]

Why? There are always plenty of WRs available every offseason that are purely deep threat guys and play special teams as well.

There's also plenty of QB's of the same standard that Jake's been showing us lately for $6 mil in chump change. If we didn't have a good defense we'd be 2-3.

Why should Ash or even Watts take the flack for a QB that cant throw a 10 yd slant straight to a receiver. It's always either high or behind him. I actually cant remember him throwing more than 5 decent passes so far this season.

[Drek]

Trade Lelie? Thats ****ing retarded. We can't get anything close to comprable talent for him, so you simply don't trade him.

Here's the thing though, everyone is saying the system doesn't fit him. Why doesn't it? Yeah, he's a little thin, but he's put on a lot of weight in the offseason and was impressive in preseason running short routes. Yet he never runs short routes come gametime, at least not when Jake will pass him the damn ball. Blame Kubiak's playcalling for that.

His hands? When did they start being a problem? They haven't been before. I find it interesting that Putz has had catching problems here, Watts is still having catching problems here, and now aledgedly Lelie is having catching problems here. All of our recievers but Rod have made critical drops too. Ever think that Jake just can't throw a damn pass well? I don't know, thats my assumption when guys who've never had catching problems before can't reel in his passes. You never see Jake place a pass right where it needs to be, its always a little high, a little low, a little off to one side, he's simply a ****TY passer, hence his 10/25 days. But that can't be Jake's fault can it? No, 'course not. He threw for more yardage last year than any Broncs QB and had 27 touchdowns, 'course Jake can't be the problem. Except he had a **** completion percentage and threw 20 INTs.

We're 4-1. We're not a 4-1 team. We're a 2-3 or 3-2 team who's had our defense make and Tatum Bell make some big plays to win us games. I'm behind the Broncs 110%, but all I see in this team right now is another mid-season swoon lead by Jake's complete inability to hit recievers in stride accurately. He's the Matt Clement of QBs. He can't control his throws but he's got everything else you need as a QB. Unfortunately for us thats a key part of a good team.

So yeah, lets trade Lelie. While we're at it trade Watts. Or trade Bell. Lets just unload anyone that Shanahan and Kubiak misuse or that Plummer's lack of accuracy is crippling. Why keep talented players when we have JAKE PLUMMER. Yeah, he's worth discrediting all your offensive talent for, god knows he was a stud in AZ.

**** Plummer, he doesn't even deserve to start for ANY team in this league. The only reason he still does here is because the running game and defense are carrying his ass to W's week after week, while he shoots them in the foot.

[fontaine]

There's also plenty of QB's of the same standard that Jake's been showing us lately for $6 mil in chump change. If we didn't have a good defense we'd be 2-3.


You're right. Dilfer, Johnson etc were available for cheap. But I believe that's it's a lot riskier to bring in a new QB and have him learn the offense for two/three years instead of getting a one dimensional WR who just stretches the field.

Why should Ash or even Watts take the flack for a QB that cant throw a 10 yd slant straight to a receiver. It's always either high or behind him. I actually cant remember him throwing more than 5 decent passes so far this season.

I didn't mention Jake or the QB. I'm taking the QB out of the equation, because Ashley Lelie doesn't need a good QB (or a bad one) to beat the jam more effectively, run routes better, use his feet to setup CBs on double moves or be an all around more physical WR.

Lelie will struggle with these things because they are on him, no matter who's throwing the ball to him.

[fontaine]

**** Plummer, he doesn't even deserve to start for ANY team in this league. The only reason he still does here is because the running game and defense are carrying his ass to W's week after week, while he shoots them in the foot.

That describes about 70% - 80% of the QBs in the league. I do agree with you that we're having to count on Jake less and less as the weeks go by and putting all that extra burden on the defense and running game, and so far they are doing an admirable job.

I do think though, that we will be drafting or bringing in a QB (possibly both) that will be a viable replacement for Jake next offseason.

[elsid13]

Relex, Lelie had decent game. I remember one drop-the first pass of the game, but the rest of the game he made plays. The one deep pass was perfectly defend by the shins corner so bo one can not blamed for that. And I doubt Shanahan let Lelie go anywhere, since he pulls the coverage deep and open up the underneath passing game and run lanes. The numbers will come, right now the defenses are focused in making Plummer beat them on long drives from the pocket. I more concerned on the lack of production from the tight ends.

[Drek]

That describes about 70% - 80% of the QBs in the league. I do agree with you that we're having to count on Jake less and less as the weeks go by and putting all that extra burden on the defense and running game, and so far they are doing an admirable job.

I do think though, that we will be drafting or bringing in a QB (possibly both) that will be a viable replacement for Jake next offseason.
No, 70-80% of QBs rely on their running game and defense to make most of the plays that win the game, but they don't actively shoot their team in the damn foot like Jake will.

Hell, today he proved he doesn't need to even throw a pick to kneecap our offense, he can just go out there and have a 10/25 day. Thats PATHETIC. A little rain takes him from being mediocre to totally ****.

As for Lelie, well, I'm sure Lelie would love to run more short routes, but Kubiak would prefer to instead use him as a decoy and ALWAYS send him deep.

My biggest complaint with Jake is that he's been worse the last two years than he was in the first year. He's reverting back to that mediocre gunslinger from AZ, only now we don't let him pass more than 20 some odd times a game. We'll have a real hard time beating a good team with Jake at QB unless Kubiak or Shanny changes something drastically.

[Beantown Bronco]

emm, have to kind of disagree with you there TJ. yes, he made a good catch there but could have sealed the deal with that late bomb from Jake. that was right in his hands and would have gotten us at least another 3 pts. he blew it there when we needed it most.

No way can you blame that one on Lelie. Did you watch that replay? The defender did a chop move on Lelie's arms a split second before the ball even got there. God wouldn't have been able to make that catch in good weather, much less what was going on during yesterday's game.

To get back to the point of the thread.....If Lelie were to be traded, I'd imagine a team like the Rams or Eagles who love to pass and go deep regularly would be interested. Isaac Bruce isn't getting any younger, and the Eagles could use an upgrade at #2.

[Atlas]

Lelie had a great TD catch props to him on that.

[Mile High Shack]

sorry TJ

don't you think he should start catching those passes that he dropped today before he pulls a prima donna card?

[Mile High Shack]

I keep forgetting everything is Plummer's fault

Lelie is the perfect receiver......he runs routes so well and never drops anything

we all know every pass every other QB in the NFL throws is right on target every time

[eddie mac]

That describes about 70% - 80% of the QBs in the league. I do agree with you that we're having to count on Jake less and less as the weeks go by and putting all that extra burden on the defense and running game, and so far they are doing an admirable job.

I do think though, that we will be drafting or bringing in a QB (possibly both) that will be a viable replacement for Jake next offseason.

If we're going to get rid of Jake in the offseason we'll be lucky to be able to afford any minimum FA's next season. We've the 2nd worst cap count for 2006 at present. I know Shanahan can work the numbers to get people in but for crying out loud, how many more crap QB's is he going throw $$ at just in the faint hope that one can clean up John Elway's excriment!!

[DrFate]

If I'm Ashley Lelie, I'm asking for a trade this offseason. Lelie is in his fourth year of a five year contract, and it's clear he's talented. It's also clear he's not going to put up the kind of numbers that he could put up if he was in a different offense.

Lelie needs to do 2 things before he will have any significant trade value:

1) learn to run more than the 'go' route
2) catch the ball

Taco if you wanted to start another Plummer-bashing thread, why didn't you just do so? :bash:

(and I think Plummer had a rough game yesterday)

[Drek]

If we're going to get rid of Jake in the offseason we'll be lucky to be able to afford any minimum FA's next season. We've the 2nd worst cap count for 2006 at present. I know Shanahan can work the numbers to get people in but for crying out loud, how many more crap QB's is he going throw $$ at just in the faint hope that one can clean up John Elway's excriment!!
Our cap situation in '06 is very deceptive. Warren has an opt out, so he won't be making the $5M he's scheduled to make. Brown won't actually see his $8M roster bonus. ETC. The cap situation will look a lot better once we actually get to the draft.

We can't really cut Jake at this point though. We had the chance last off-season and we're going to regret it cap-wise for the next few years. But who knows, I don't know the intricacies of his deal and Shanahan was looking to bring Garcia in during the off-season, implying that Jake's job wasn't 100% guaranteed. Its possible that the restructure gives us a way to get out of his deal cheaper than you'd expect. We'll see though.

[Mile High Shack]

Lelie needs to do 2 things before he will have any significant trade value:

1) learn to run more than the 'go' route
2) catch the ball

Taco if you wanted to start another Plummer-bashing thread, why didn't you just do so? :bash:

(and I think Plummer had a rough game yesterday)

you are darn right Plummer had a very bad game yesterday......but we won

we move on and learn from a bad game and take a W even though we didn't play well.

you'd think we lost

[Atlas]

I keep forgetting everything is Plummer's fault

Lelie is the perfect receiver......he runs routes so well and never drops anything

we all know every pass every other QB in the NFL throws is right on target every time


Lelie is not perfect and not everything is Plummers fault. His 92 yards was very impressive. Especially trying to get Rod killed on back to back passes that was great.

[elsid13]

Lelie is not perfect and not everything is Plummers fault. His 92 yards was very impressive. Especially trying to get Rod killed on back to back passes that was great.


make you wonder if Rod goes back to the huddle and tells Jake throw it to someone else once and awhile. He would like to see the end of the season.

[DrFate]

Lelie is not perfect and not everything is Plummers fault. His 92 yards was very impressive. Especially trying to get Rod killed on back to back passes that was great.

Plummer gets blamed for everything - no running game, drops, lack of pash rush, poor refs, etc.

If an NFL receiver gets 2 hands on the ball, he should catch it. Period. Why anybody thinks Lelie would ask for a trade when he has about as many drops as he has catches this year is nonsense.

[eddie mac]

Lelie is not perfect and not everything is Plummers fault. His 92 yards was very impressive. Especially trying to get Rod killed on back to back passes that was great.

The yardage thing doesn't bother me too much, it's the constant lame duck throws. I watched the NE v Atlanta game prior to the Broncs game and Brady threw a 50 yard bomb straight into B Johnson's hands, it was more like a punt, the height the throw went. Plummer's bombs very rarely connect with anyone. I'm actually trying to compare Plummer to Brady rofl, that's like comparing the Chiefs D to ours.

Sooner or later our run game or defense are not gonna be strong enough to bail this huge disappointment out and it could be next week against the Superbowl Champs.

[elsid13]

Wonder if we could trade Lelie and 1st for Andre Johnson in Houston. That guy would be awsome, and one of the only elite WRs that take.

[eddie mac]

Wonder if we could trade Lelie and 1st for Andre Johnson in Houston. That guy would be awsome, and one of the only elite WRs that take.

Who would be throwing to him bro? BVP?

[elsid13]

Who would be throwing to him bro? BVP?


Since he would have QB that actually not on his backside, he might be excited to have Plummer.

[DarkHorse]

With the right offense and QB Lelie would be unstoppable. Think 'early years Moss' with all of those long TD receptions.

Lelie with any of the following QB's would dominate the NFL:

Culpepper
McNabb
Vick * - Falcons need a guy like this but passed on him
Brady - would only be a deep threat here, like Denver, but a better QB

I'm sure a lot of Lelie's production is being in the right system for what he is. Our current system is run first and pass off of the boot. Gone are the days of Elway deep to Mcaffery or Sharpe - this is where Lelie shines, in open field on deep passes. He just doesn't look like a #1 when moving in and out of traffic. Tends to lose focus on the ball in the middle of the field.

[DrFate]

With the right offense and QB Lelie would be unstoppable. Think 'early years Moss' with all of those long TD receptions.

Lelie with any of the following QB's would dominate the NFL:

Culpepper
McNabb
Vick * - Falcons need a guy like this but passed on him
Brady - would only be a deep threat here, like Denver, but a better QB

I'm sure a lot of Lelie's production is being in the right system for what he is. Our current system is run first and pass off of the boot. Gone are the days of Elway deep to Mcaffery or Sharpe - this is where Lelie shines, in open field on deep passes. He just doesn't look like a #1 when moving in and out of traffic. Tends to lose focus on the ball in the middle of the field.

Good post. Moss is the only guy who can get away with simply running straight down the sideline down and after down and being semi-productive. Maybe the only routes they ask Lelie to run are 'go' routes - I don't have the playbook. But in the games I see Lelie runs in a straight line and little else. If he ever runs a route he drops the ball.

[elsid13]

I'm sure a lot of Lelie's production is being in the right system for what he is. Our current system is run first and pass off of the boot. Gone are the days of Elway deep to Mcaffery or Sharpe - this is where Lelie shines, in open field on deep passes. He just doesn't look like a #1 when moving in and out of traffic. Tends to lose focus on the ball in the middle of the field.


Darkhorse,

This offenise hasn't changed since those days. It was and still is a run first team. What hurting the deep ball is the lack of break away speed at the RB, and the TE controlling the center of the field. IF we had the coaching tape I bet we see cover 2 . Lelie going to beat corner when he has one on one, but safety over the top would change Plummer read to check down reciever. The real question is where have the tight ends gone in the offenise???

[Mile High Shack]

Lelie is not perfect and not everything is Plummers fault. His 92 yards was very impressive. Especially trying to get Rod killed on back to back passes that was great.

I already said he had a bad game

but apparently everything that goes wrong with the Broncos is Plummer's fault

I keep forgetting that

[Mile High Shack]

Darkhorse,

This offenise hasn't changed since those days. It was and still is a run first team. What hurting the deep ball is the lack of break away speed at the RB, and the TE controlling the center of the field. IF we had the coaching tape I bet we see cover 2 . Lelie going to beat corner when he has one on one, but safety over the top would change Plummer read to check down reciever. The real question is where have the tight ends gone in the offenise???

I agree with you in regards to Anderson

but not Bell

all the Bell haters need to apologize

[DrFate]

The real question is where have the tight ends gone in the offenise???

Nice post. Especially after we gave Putzier mega-millions to not be a Jet (for the record I was hoping we would take their draft pick).

Oh wait - It's Plummer's fault. I forgot... :laugh:

[-Slap-]

If I'm Ashley Lelie, I'm asking for a trade this offseason. Lelie is in his fourth year of a five year contract, and it's clear he's talented. It's also clear he's not going to put up the kind of numbers that he could put up if he was in a different offense.

Putting myself in Lelie's shoes, I imagine that Lelie is a confident kid who believes he can play in this league. But 2006 is a contract year for him, and his last shot to really show something to the league in order to get his 2007 pay day.

If I'm Lelie I'm probably not thinking of coming back to Denver.

I think we should trade him this offseason in order to avoid seeing him sign as a free agent in Oakland, KC, or San Diego. I doubt he's coming back here, and the last thing I want to see is him ending up with a division rival.

Lelie's not going to ask for a trade because he's not selfish. He'll be playing and contributing for Denver long after Jake Plummer is a bad memory.

Years from now, we'll probably look back in anger that Rod Smith's and Tom Nalen's final seasons were frittered away with a knucklehead like that under center.

[Atlas]

make you wonder if Rod goes back to the huddle and tells Jake throw it to someone else once and awhile. He would like to see the end of the season.

After the second pass Denver had to punt and Rod walked over to the sideline shook his head and said something to some guy standing there.

[Mile High Shack]

Lelie's not going to ask for a trade because he's not selfish. He'll be playing and contributing for Denver long after Jake Plummer is a bad memory.

Years from now, we'll probably look back in anger that Rod Smith's and Tom Nalen's final seasons were frittered away with a knucklehead like that under center.

who the hell else is there out there to play QB for us at this point in time?

[-Slap-]

He's a Ferrari on a dirt track, unfortunately...I'm not sure what the answer is, assuming there is one.
The answer is to get him an NFL caliber quarterback.

[elsid13]

I agree with you in regards to Anderson

but not Bell

all the Bell haters need to apologize


Bell has the speed and was showing nice skills picking up his blocking assigments Sunday. Anderson is warrior, but he needs to be sledgehammer on every 4 play to Tatum's

[Atlas]

I think Denver should draft a QB in the first or second next year. Jake get's one more year. And the QB can sit on the bench and watch and learn.

[Mile High Shack]

I think Denver should draft a QB in the first or second next year. Jake get's one more year. And the QB can sit on the bench and watch and learn.

I agree we need to get more talent at the QB position, but ELway's don't grow on trees

and with the history of how Denver fans have treated the QBs A.E.

then I have my doubts as to whether or not the new QB will be accepted after they make their first mistake

[Atlas]

I agree we need to get more talent at the QB position, but ELway's don't grow on trees

and with the history of how Denver fans have treated the QBs A.E.

then I have my doubts as to whether or not the new QB will be accepted after they make their first mistake

Yeah but Tom Brady's and Mark Bulger's are found in the 6th round.

[elsid13]

The answer is to get him an NFL caliber quarterback.

Watching Palmer play last night, made me real jealous. A QB with an arm and accuracy this team would be superbowl favorite. I like Plummer but he is so-so QB.

[-Slap-]

who the hell else is there out there to play QB for us at this point in time?
Let's ignore that our QB can't throw a deep ball, can't throw from the pocket, pump faked in the driving rain from his own end zone for no frigging reason and got bailed out by the tuck rule. We cannot even discuss these glaring liabilities because no immediate replacement seems apparent.

[DarkHorse]

Darkhorse,

This offenise hasn't changed since those days. It was and still is a run first team. What hurting the deep ball is the lack of break away speed at the RB, and the TE controlling the center of the field. IF we had the coaching tape I bet we see cover 2 . Lelie going to beat corner when he has one on one, but safety over the top would change Plummer read to check down reciever. The real question is where have the tight ends gone in the offenise???


Same offensive scheme yes - not even close to the same personnel tho. We have a speed back in Bell who can force the defenses hand but we don't seem to 'trust' him enough yet.

Jeb is a good TE but not Sharpe. Lelie can get deep but he can't save the day on 3rd downs with a catch across the middle while taking a vicious shot ala Ed Mcaffery.

Offense is the same yes - personnel is lacking to run the offense tho.


Let's not even compare the QB's - it would be ugly.

[DrFate]

Yeah but Tom Brady's and Mark Bulger's are found in the 6th round.

So we should draft a QB in the 6th round? ???

[Mile High Shack]

Yeah but Tom Brady's and Mark Bulger's are found in the 6th round.

with the way Booger throws up picks left and right, people would be screaming for his head

Tom Brady...talk about hitting the lottery, that was a luck pick, no one knew how well he was going to do

again, with our new QB we get, it is only a matter of time before he is criticized out of town too

[Drek]

who the hell else is there out there to play QB for us at this point in time?
More like why didn't we bring someone else in this off-season. Was Jeff Garcia the only QB FA? McMahon would have been nice depth, I'd give Quincy Carter a shot in our offense, hell, Jay Fiedler has his faults but he knows how to throw a catchable ball. Rohan Davey was also cut by the Pats, a strong armed QB with decent mobility. Better yet, we probably could have traded Pierce for Davey and had him from the start of camp. All of those guys have the mobility to play in our system.

Instead Shanny couldn't get the one guy he was semi-interested in so we commit to paying Plummer big money to suck for the rest of Smith's, Nalen's, and Lynch's careers, with the next best option being a feel good local story 7th round pick.

I'd love to trade Walls to the E-girls for McMahon, isn't he behind one of the Detmer boys on their depth chart? Or hell, at least sign a QB like Davey to the roster so we have another option. Jake isn't doing well by any stretch of the imagination, its tempting fate to stick with just him and BVP at the QB position, and it's going to bite us in the ass just like it did last season.

[DarkHorse]

Let's ignore that our QB can't throw a deep ball, can't throw from the pocket, pump faked in the driving rain from his own end zone for no frigging reason and got bailed out by the tuck rule. We cannot even discuss these glaring liabilities because no immediate replacement seems apparent.


Not calling for Jakes head but what's your opinion - long term - on BVP?

Tell you what - the games I saw him play in - absolute competitor, warrior with a decent arm.

How's his accuracy? Keep his head in games? etc.....

Scout him for me.

[Mile High Shack]

Let's ignore that our QB can't throw a deep ball, can't throw from the pocket, pump faked in the driving rain from his own end zone for no frigging reason and got bailed out by the tuck rule. We cannot even discuss these glaring liabilities because no immediate replacement seems apparent.

I think Plummer has small hands and had a hard time with that wet ball

which is bad b/c we play in a bad weather city (for the most part)

so that is why he had a bad today

I agree we need to upgrade the talent at the QB position

but you ignored my question

who in the last 3 years could we have drafted/acquired would be better?

[broncosteven]

No we need him, It is a long season he will get his shots plus Rod is getting old & we have trouble finding receivers. Sunday was a wet & cold day & yet he made a nice catch in the corner of end zone & could have had a long TD if the defender doesn't get lucky & get his arm in between the ball & Ash. I will be more pissed if they trade Ash than when they traded Por ol Clinton

[Mile High Shack]

More like why didn't we bring someone else in this off-season. Was Jeff Garcia the only QB FA? McMahon would have been nice depth, I'd give Quincy Carter a shot in our offense, hell, Jay Fiedler has his faults but he knows how to throw a catchable ball. Rohan Davey was also cut by the Pats, a strong armed QB with decent mobility. Better yet, we probably could have traded Pierce for Davey and had him from the start of camp. All of those guys have the mobility to play in our system.

Instead Shanny couldn't get the one guy he was semi-interested in so we commit to paying Plummer big money to suck for the rest of Smith's, Nalen's, and Lynch's careers, with the next best option being a feel good local story 7th round pick.

I'd love to trade Walls to the E-girls for McMahon, isn't he behind one of the Detmer boys on their depth chart? Or hell, at least sign a QB like Davey to the roster so we have another option. Jake isn't doing well by any stretch of the imagination, its tempting fate to stick with just him and BVP at the QB position, and it's going to bite us in the ass just like it did last season.

every one of those qbs you mentioned, maybe besides Garcia suck balls...and Garcia just does that in the offseason

Garcia looked pretty good in Cleveland last year

[Atlas]

with the way Booger throws up picks left and right, people would be screaming for his head

Tom Brady...talk about hitting the lottery, that was a luck pick, no one knew how well he was going to do

again, with our new QB we get, it is only a matter of time before he is criticized out of town too

Bulger is a good QB he is just stuck in that track meet offense. Hell, he passes 70% of the time. I bet his INT rate was lower than Plummer's last year.

[DarkHorse30]

I forgot about the nice grab over the 6th string cornerback in man coverage... probably because I keep thinking about the passes that hit him between the left and right hand and squirt on through...

every WR was dropping balls in the rain. Moss dropped 2....but has the speed to get behind nearly every CB in the league. Lelie has similar speed AND the hops to jump up and make circus catches. Why trade a good player like Lelie? I'd rather trade Plummer than Lelie....and I don't really want to trade him either. This team is a good team, I'm not sure tinkering with the lineup is in anybody's best interest. We've got talented players at nearly every position on offense.....but we've also played 4 of the top 10 defenses in the NFL. Progress will show up against average defenses.

The thing that some fans don't understand is the way Lelie stretches the field. Denver hasn't had a field stretcher before, so I'm not surprised fans are confused by his role. 100 catches per season is more of a possession WR's role....not a burner like Lelie. Plummer was right on with that long bomb to Lelie and the cb luckily put his hand on the ball. Plummer throws it a half a step longer and it's a TD.

[DarkHorse]

More like why didn't we bring someone else in this off-season. Was Jeff Garcia the only QB FA? McMahon would have been nice depth, I'd give Quincy Carter a shot in our offense, hell, Jay Fiedler has his faults but he knows how to throw a catchable ball. Rohan Davey was also cut by the Pats, a strong armed QB with decent mobility. Better yet, we probably could have traded Pierce for Davey and had him from the start of camp. All of those guys have the mobility to play in our system.

Instead Shanny couldn't get the one guy he was semi-interested in so we commit to paying Plummer big money to suck for the rest of Smith's, Nalen's, and Lynch's careers, with the next best option being a feel good local story 7th round pick.

I'd love to trade Walls to the E-girls for McMahon, isn't he behind one of the Detmer boys on their depth chart? Or hell, at least sign a QB like Davey to the roster so we have another option. Jake isn't doing well by any stretch of the imagination, its tempting fate to stick with just him and BVP at the QB position, and it's going to bite us in the ass just like it did last season.

I'd let Rod line up at QB before i'd even offer ANY of those guys you named a Broncos jersey.

[Mile High Shack]

Bulger is a good QB he is just stuck in that track meet offense. Hell, he passes 70% of the time. I bet his INT rate was lower than Plummer's last year.
2004 St. Louis Rams 14 14 485 321 66.2 3964 8.17 56 21 14 41/302 56 6 93.7

he had a good year..kinda

but those 14 picks, he'd get abilierated in the media here and by fans

[-Slap-]

I agree we need to get more talent at the QB position, but ELway's don't grow on trees

and with the history of how Denver fans have treated the QBs A.E.

then I have my doubts as to whether or not the new QB will be accepted after they make their first mistake
You certainly have the Jake Alibi Handbook memorized.

"Everything is Jake's fault."

"Who else are we going to get?"

"Bronco fans won't accept any QB except Elway."

[Mile High Shack]

You certainly have the Jake Alibi Handbook memorized.

"Everything is Jake's fault."

"Who else are we going to get?"

"Bronco fans won't accept any QB except Elway."

I have already conceeded that we need a new QB soon via the draft

but I have yet to hear from the Jake hater group who would've been a better option in the last 3 years

but yeah

everything is Jake's fault, even when we win, there are more Jake hating threads than congrats on the win threads

[-Slap-]

Not calling for Jakes head but what's your opinion - long term - on BVP?

Tell you what - the games I saw him play in - absolute competitor, warrior with a decent arm.

How's his accuracy? Keep his head in games? etc.....

Scout him for me.
I like his potential as a quarterback. He has all the measurables, including the toughness and competitiveness that he obviously inherited from his badass old man. Like the coaching staff, I have some trepidation regarding his personality and off the field demeanor.

[Drek]

Not calling for Jakes head but what's your opinion - long term - on BVP?

Tell you what - the games I saw him play in - absolute competitor, warrior with a decent arm.

How's his accuracy? Keep his head in games? etc.....

Scout him for me.
BVP = Jake + 2 inches + 20 lbs..

He's also erratic on his throws and tries to make too much happen. He's the same thing, just a lot younger so he still has some potential to calm down his passing.

Elway was a gunslinger, but he knew how to put a pass right where his recievers wanted it. We keep looking for the next Elway, not the next QB, and thats our problem. Stop looking for those same qualities and settle for someone who can get the job done Sunday after Sunday.

every one of those qbs you mentioned, maybe besides Garcia suck balls...and Garcia just does that in the offseason Fiedler, Carter: Suck balls, sure, but at the same level as Jake, and they wouldn't cost us $3-$4M a year.
McMahon, Davey: The former was impressive (for a rookie) in limited action in Detroit, hasn't seen the field nearly enough to be labelled. The later, lit up NFL Europe but has thrown only a handful of regular season TDs in garbage time. Again not enough known to label him. They'd both have cost dirt and could have at least provided a backup that we aren't afraid to put in a real game.

[DarkHorse]

every one of those qbs you mentioned, maybe besides Garcia suck balls...and Garcia just does that in the offseason

Garcia looked pretty good in Cleveland last year


No, he was horrible. Skittish and undecisive in Cleveland, they were calling for his head within the 4th week here.

2004 Cleveland Browns 11 10 252 144 57.1 1731 6.87 99 10 9 24/99 18 8 76.7

also had 11 fumbles and lost 6 of them.

Not very good in my book - at least last year wasn't. The stats don't tell the entire true story - you'd have to see how he looked out there.

[Mile High Shack]

No, he was horrible. Skittish and undecisive in Cleveland, they were calling for his head within the 4th week here.

2004 Cleveland Browns 11 10 252 144 57.1 1731 6.87 99 10 9 24/99 18 8 76.7

also had 11 fumbles and lost 6 of them.

Not very good in my book - at least last year wasn't. The stats don't tell the entire true story - you'd have to see how he looked out there.

'sarcasm'

if you have read my posts in the offseason when we went after Garcia I was against it

[Mile High Shack]

BVP = Jake + 2 inches + 20 lbs..

He's also erratic on his throws and tries to make too much happen. He's the same thing, just a lot younger so he still has some potential to calm down his passing.

Elway was a gunslinger, but he knew how to put a pass right where his recievers wanted it. We keep looking for the next Elway, not the next QB, and thats our problem. Stop looking for those same qualities and settle for someone who can get the job done Sunday after Sunday.

Fiedler, Carter: Suck balls, sure, but at the same level as Jake, and they wouldn't cost us $3-$4M a year.
McMahon, Davey: The former was impressive (for a rookie) in limited action in Detroit, hasn't seen the field nearly enough to be labelled. The later, lit up NFL Europe but has thrown only a handful of regular season TDs in garbage time. Again not enough known to label him. They'd both have cost dirt and could have at least provided a backup that we aren't afraid to put in a real game.

need I remind you of other QBs who "lit up NFL Europe?"

[-Slap-]

I have already conceeded that we need a new QB soon via the draft

but I have yet to hear from the Jake hater group who would've been a better option in the last 3 years

but yeah

everything is Jake's fault, even when we win, there are more Jake hating threads than congrats on the win threads
Be glad the refs invoked the tuck rule and bailed him out or you would have seen plenty of Jake hating threads this morning.

[BigPlayShay]

At this point last year he had 3 more catches and 150 more yards. Doesn't sound like a whole lot to worry about, especially considering the conditions.

If he catches the two that he dropped we are talking about what an amazing day he had. The big plays will come, but i am not going to sit here and criticize anyone for the way they played in the rain/sleet/wind when they won the game.

[bloodsunday]

I think it's much more likely that DJ Williams will grab the first train out of town but he's fairly hogtied at this point.
NO kidding. I think DJ got the scroogey on the Ian Gold deal. I wonder if we should trade him? I mean what's the value of having a play maker like him on the strong side and leaving the field for half the plays (nickel)?

I don't know...It just seems like you don't get a hell of alot for underachievers in this league. I think it would be insane to get rid of Lelie at this point with Rod Smith so close to the end of the road. I noticed Watts had another huge game today as well.

I know it was horrible weather, but 92 yards is attrocious, and Brunell managed 322 on the road.
Lelie was not great today... but quick tell me a member of the Broncos passing unit that was? I mean I think even Kubes and Shanny regressed in their play-calling. Jake couldn't throw it and the WR couldn't catch it. Better hope for good weather the rest of the way. You gotta be nervous about November in Buffalo.... although Buffalo is ranked 31st against the run.

[BMF Bronco]

As all of you may know, I am a huge Plummer advocate, but man, after yesterday, I am beginning to have my doubts. Jake has been in the league, what, 9 years and still cannot connect with a receiver down field. I watched the NE/ATL game just prior, and hell, Vick's backup Straub (???) was connecting with his receivers 30 yards down field and hit them in stride. Then there's Brady, one cannot say enough about that guy! The long bomb to Bethel Johnson was a work of art, reminded me of some guy that used to wear 7. Then I look at Plummer and anytime he launches it you can almost guarantee a 2nd and 10.

[Ray Finkle]

Lelie must have concentration problems, mental block or something. Sure, he's becoming good at the over-the-head circus catches but can't seem to hold onto the easy ones between the numbers.

perhaps he's thinking too much where he's going to go before he catches the easy ones in stride rather than the over the head ones that he knows he's going to fall anyway. ..... I don't know.

He reminds me of one of those catchers in baseball with a mental block that can throw a rope to second base but can't lob one back to the pitcher to save his life.

Mackey Sasser.....Will Clark once stole second on him while he was throwing the ball to the pitcher...

[DarkHorse]

'sarcasm'

if you have read my posts in the offseason when we went after Garcia I was against it


Oh, didn't see any of them - sorry :dunk:

[Raiders Rock]

Lelie can't catch, it's that simple , make him a DB

[Nuggets4]

Lelie with any of the following QB's would dominate the NFL:

Culpepper
McNabb
Vick * - Falcons need a guy like this but passed on him
Brady - would only be a deep threat here, like Denver, but a better QB

With those QB's, I could dominate the NFL.

[Mile High Shack]

Be glad the refs invoked the tuck rule and bailed him out or you would have seen plenty of Jake hating threads this morning.

you are side stepping my question

who is a better alternative the last 3 years?

[DarkHorse]

With those QB's, I could dominate the NFL.


Yep - bout like Nate Burelson and ummm........ who are the Atlanta receivers now? Michael Jenkins and someone else right? tsk tsk

[DarkHorse]

I would take Schaub outta Atlanta - dat boy can play.

[DarkHorse]

So - when/if Drew Brees hits the open market - should we take a shot at him? Or perhaps get in on the Philip Rivers debate?


I, for one, would hate Philip Rivers if he came here - I never like Bernie Kosar and i'd hate his clone as well.

[DarkHorse30]

I think Plummer has small hands and had a hard time with that wet ball



Elway also had trouble with rain and snow. Plummer is learning how to play a game within himself. Might take a few years before he really gets it, but I can't really knock his play so far this season.

You mentioned Brady being a lucky find. Remember that he is more patient than most QBs. The pats basically rely on a good defense and a steady offense.....that usually wins big games by a figgie. Brady often will take a sack or throw an incomplete pass, rather than test a defense. That said, he is good at reading defense and having an idea of where he should be going with the ball. I don't think Plummer will ever get that good in that area....but he has other strengths....like knowing when to get out of the pocket and actually passing on the run better than he does in the pocket. Strange but true.

Plummer is an above average QB that is learning how to win consistently, and how to be patient when you have a good defense to help you out. No picks against 2 very good pass defenses (Jax is #2, skins #6) is a good start.....to go with 4 straight wins.

[fontaine]

If we're going to get rid of Jake in the offseason we'll be lucky to be able to afford any minimum FA's next season. We've the 2nd worst cap count for 2006 at present. I know Shanahan can work the numbers to get people in but for crying out loud, how many more crap QB's is he going throw $$ at just in the faint hope that one can clean up John Elway's excriment!!

Sorry, I didn't present my viewpoint very clearly.

I meant that I firmly believe Shanny will get Jake's replacement next offseason (via draft/free agency, or even both), but I don't think Jake will be released. He'd be a great insurance policy since he knows the offense and we'll need him to be here for one/two years longer till his signing bonus is off the books so that we can cut him without penalty.

[Mile High Shack]

Elway also had trouble with rain and snow. Plummer is learning how to play a game within himself. Might take a few years before he really gets it, but I can't really knock his play so far this season.

You mentioned Brady being a lucky find. Remember that he is more patient than most QBs. The pats basically rely on a good defense and a steady offense.....that usually wins big games by a figgie. Brady often will take a sack or throw an incomplete pass, rather than test a defense. That said, he is good at reading defense and having an idea of where he should be going with the ball. I don't think Plummer will ever get that good in that area....but he has other strengths....like knowing when to get out of the pocket and actually passing on the run better than he does in the pocket. Strange but true.

Plummer is an above average QB that is learning how to win consistently, and how to be patient when you have a good defense to help you out. No picks against 2 very good pass defenses (Jax is #2, skins #6) is a good start.....to go with 4 straight wins.

if teams can win with a QB like Dilfer at the helm, we can win with Jake at the helm

but we do have to hope for no wet weather

[fontaine]

No, 70-80% of QBs rely on their running game and defense to make most of the plays that win the game, but they don't actively shoot their team in the damn foot like Jake will.

Hell, today he proved he doesn't need to even throw a pick to kneecap our offense, he can just go out there and have a 10/25 day. Thats PATHETIC. A little rain takes him from being mediocre to totally ****.

As for Lelie, well, I'm sure Lelie would love to run more short routes, but Kubiak would prefer to instead use him as a decoy and ALWAYS send him deep.

My biggest complaint with Jake is that he's been worse the last two years than he was in the first year. He's reverting back to that mediocre gunslinger from AZ, only now we don't let him pass more than 20 some odd times a game. We'll have a real hard time beating a good team with Jake at QB unless Kubiak or Shanny changes something drastically.

Have you heard of the old Indian story about a horse finding a drowning snake? The snake asked him for help, the horse didn't want to for fear of being bitten. The rattler then promised not to bite so the horse saved him and took him uphill to dry land where the sun warmed the snake and as soon as the horse put him down the snake bit him.

As the horse lay dying, he asked why did you do it?

The snake replied I am what I am. You knew that when you helped me.

To make a laboured point, Jake isn't going to magically transform into an efficient pocket passer. He is what he is. Jake isn't devolving back into the QB he used to be in Zona, he always was that QB. We all need to know that. So it's up the coaches/defense/RBs to make up for limiting his involvement in the offense. So yes, he'll have some games where he throws very little, dinks and dunks etc so we can limit his mistakes.

[DarkHorse]

if teams can win with a QB like Dilfer at the helm, we can win with Jake at the helm

but we do have to hope for no wet weather


If you're talking about the Ravens squad that Dilfer was on - bad example. As good as our D is we are nowhere - not even remotely close to the talent level that the Ravens D played at during their SB run.

We have a good D - but that D was unbelievable. Dilfer did squat but manage games - that's all he had to do - the Defense of that team earned their SB.

[Drek]

Exactly Fontaine, but you think its o.k. whereas I think Jake should've been cut this off-season. Jake REALLY is the guy that went 10/25 yesterday, the guy that threw 20 picks last year. He really is just NOT a starting level NFL QB. He made one great play yesterday, audiabling into a Bell run, that was it.

You can't change Jake into something that he's not, and we can't win a championship with him. The whole "Dilfer did it" line is bull****. Dilfer won a championship thanks to the D and running game carrying him, but he didn't have a 30-40% completion percentage games as often as not, which Jake does. Thats breaking your own team's legs right there and thats why we can't win with Jake. For all the great plays he makes he'll commit two stupid ones.

Just wait, Jake is an entirely exploitable weakness of our offense. We're going to get tore apart by the better teams of this league and people will sit and wonder why, defending Jake all the while.

[Mile High Shack]

Exactly Fontaine, but you think its o.k. whereas I think Jake should've been cut this off-season. Jake REALLY is the guy that went 10/25 yesterday, the guy that threw 20 picks last year. He really is just NOT a starting level NFL QB. He made one great play yesterday, audiabling into a Bell run, that was it.

You can't change Jake into something that he's not, and we can't win a championship with him. The whole "Dilfer did it" line is bull****. Dilfer won a championship thanks to the D and running game carrying him, but he didn't have a 30-40% completion percentage games as often as not, which Jake does. Thats breaking your own team's legs right there and thats why we can't win with Jake. For all the great plays he makes he'll commit two stupid ones.

Just wait, Jake is an entirely exploitable weakness of our offense. We're going to get tore apart by the better teams of this league and people will sit and wonder why, defending Jake all the while.

that is just an ignorant statement

who in the hell else would we of got this year???

[Mile High Shack]

If you're talking about the Ravens squad that Dilfer was on - bad example. As good as our D is we are nowhere - not even remotely close to the talent level that the Ravens D played at during their SB run.

We have a good D - but that D was unbelievable. Dilfer did squat but manage games - that's all he had to do - the Defense of that team earned their SB.

I think this defense can be dominant, maybe not that dominant, but yeah

I think our team can win on the running game and defense

so I think it is a good example

[-Slap-]

you are side stepping my question

who is a better alternative the last 3 years?
Believe me. I was more pissed than anybody that Shanahan stuck with Griese so long that we had to basically decide between Jake or Kordell Stewart. I think Shanahan and Kubiak could have salvaged Kordell's career much as they did Jake's, for that matter.

Brees was on the block before last year's breakout. We would all feel a lot better with him under center. I think that's fairly certain.

That's immaterial, though. Who we could have gotten has nothing to do with whether the current QB's play should be critiqued. Nothing.

[-Slap-]

So - when/if Drew Brees hits the open market - should we take a shot at him? Or perhaps get in on the Philip Rivers debate?


I, for one, would hate Philip Rivers if he came here - I never like Bernie Kosar and i'd hate his clone as well.
Amen. Piss on this sidearm bull****. Learn how to throw a football and come back.

[Taco John]

sorry TJ

don't you think he should start catching those passes that he dropped today before he pulls a prima donna card?


I think there was one catch that he could have reasonably be expected to catch that he dropped. And no, I don't think Lelie needs to pick up the excess of Jake's slack before he starts looking after his own payday.

[Taco John]

Taco if you wanted to start another Plummer-bashing thread, why didn't you just do so? :bash:


Because, to tell you the truth, I'm not interested in talking about the worst player on our offense. I'd rather talk about the guys who have to suffer him.

[DarkHorse]

I think this defense can be dominant, maybe not that dominant, but yeah

I think our team can win on the running game and defense

so I think it is a good example


As much as i'd like to agree I think that's asking too much from this defense right now. We've basically f'ed up DJ Williams growth by bringing Gold back - that's pretty evident as his play and playing time have dropped off noticeaby. So that takes away a LB from the equation. Our secondary hasn't proved to be nearly as capable at shutting down receivers and this is due mostly in part to lackluster play from the Dline.

While I'd like to fantasize that our D can be as good as the Ravens was - there's just too many holes in it right now - and it starts with the Dline's disappearing acts.

[Taco John]

What hurting the deep ball is the lack of break away speed at the RB, and the TE controlling the center of the field.



Did you miss the fact that Tatum Bell was scoring touchdowns on plays designed to go maybe 5 yards due to the fact that he has break away speed? Our speed at runningback is the only reason we won the game yesterday.

[DarkHorse]

Because, to tell you the truth, I'm not interested in talking about the worst player on our offense. I'd rather talk about the guys who have to suffer him.


Good post.

My cousin hates Plummer - I keep defending him but sooner or later i'm gonna have to face the music.

[Mile High Shack]

I think there was one catch that he could have reasonably be expected to catch that he dropped. And no, I don't think Lelie needs to pick up the excess of Jake's slack before he starts looking after his own payday.

there were 3 I counted

[fontaine]

Exactly Fontaine, but you think its o.k. whereas I think Jake should've been cut this off-season. Jake REALLY is the guy that went 10/25 yesterday, the guy that threw 20 picks last year. He really is just NOT a starting level NFL QB. He made one great play yesterday, audiabling into a Bell run, that was it.

You can't change Jake into something that he's not, and we can't win a championship with him. The whole "Dilfer did it" line is bull****. Dilfer won a championship thanks to the D and running game carrying him, but he didn't have a 30-40% completion percentage games as often as not, which Jake does. Thats breaking your own team's legs right there and thats why we can't win with Jake. For all the great plays he makes he'll commit two stupid ones.

Just wait, Jake is an entirely exploitable weakness of our offense. We're going to get tore apart by the better teams of this league and people will sit and wonder why, defending Jake all the while.

I know, I understand and see where you're coming from.

But rest assured this upcoming offseason will be the BEST one in years for QB talent.

We're deep in draft picks and there WILL be several intriguing QBs available like Harrington, Ramsay, Rivers, Rattay, David Garrard, Chris Sims and that's just off the top of my head.

The ONE thing I do believe in is that Shanahan has traditionally gotten the very most out of the talent at QB. Griese, Frerrotte, Plummer. Shanahan has coached around these players deficiencies to take this team to the playoffs.

The difference has been that when he has had someone like Elway, Young, he's finished it off with SuperBowls. Next offseason, believe me, there will be a ton of talent to choose from and we'll get ours.

[Mile High Shack]

I know, I understand and see where you're coming from.

But rest assured this upcoming offseason will be the BEST one in years for QB talent.

We've deep in draft picks and there WILL be several intriguing QBs available like Harrington, Ramsay, Rivers, Rattay, David Garrard, Chris Sims and that's just off the top of my head.

The ONE thing I do believe in is that Shanahan has traditionally gotten the very most out of the talent at QB. Griese, Frerrotte, Plummer. Shanahan has coached around these players deficiencies to take this team to the playoffs.

The difference has been that when he has had someone like Elway, Young, he's finished it off with SuperBowls. Next offseason, believe me, there will be a ton of talent to choose from and we'll get ours.


Harrington (you sure about this? He can't pick up virtually the same offense in Detroit...and you'd want him here? He looks worse than Jake), Ramsay (what has he done?), Rivers (hate his throwing motion, get about 5 balls a game batted down), Rattay (he gets injured constantly), David Garrard (just signed long term deal in offseason), Chris Sims (not only no but HELL NO)

[Taco John]

I think Plummer has small hands and had a hard time with that wet ball

which is bad b/c we play in a bad weather city (for the most part)

so that is why he had a bad today

I agree we need to upgrade the talent at the QB position

but you ignored my question

who in the last 3 years could we have drafted/acquired would be better?


Jake Delhomme would have been a good acquisition. Personally, I think Kitna is being wasted on Cincinatti's bench. Not a lot of people share my take on Kitna, but I like his poise and work ethic. I think Jeff Garcia would blow us away in this offense. That's for starters...

[-Slap-]

I know, I understand and see where you're coming from.

But rest assured this upcoming offseason will be the BEST one in years for QB talent.

We're deep in draft picks and there WILL be several intriguing QBs available like Harrington, Ramsay, Rivers, Rattay, David Garrard, Chris Sims and that's just off the top of my head.

The ONE thing I do believe in is that Shanahan has traditionally gotten the very most out of the talent at QB. Griese, Frerrotte, Plummer. Shanahan has coached around these players deficiencies to take this team to the playoffs.

The difference has been that when he has had someone like Elway, Young, he's finished it off with SuperBowls. Next offseason, believe me, there will be a ton of talent to choose from and we'll get ours.
I'll be pissed off if we don't make a run at David Garrard.

[Mile High Shack]

Jake Delhomme would have been a good acquisition. Personally, I think Kitna is being wasted on Cincinatti's bench. Not a lot of people share my take on Kitna, but I like his poise and work ethic. I think Jeff Garcia would blow us away in this offense. That's for starters...

Kitna has a long term deal in Cinncy, you gonna trade for him?

Jake Delhomme would've been good.....I think Carolina scooped him up fast

Garcia sucks

[meangene]

Plummer had a bad game throwing the ball and clearly had trouble gripping the ball in the weather. He has small hands just like Elway who also had some awful bad weather games. His receivers, other than Smith, are pedestrian at best and he was playing against another great defense. The last three weeks he has played very well. He's not making the mistakes everyone bi***** about last year. The team is winning. It' not like he's sucked all year so I don't get all the bashing. He is not surrounded by great offensive talent and this team is winning with defense. He is managing the game like he has been asked to do. I think he deserves a lot of credit for playing within the system this year. Jake will be just fine.

[Mile High Shack]

I'll be pissed off if we don't make a run at David Garrard.

how are we going to do that

he signed another contract in the offseason

[Taco John]

BVP = Jake + 2 inches + 20 lbs..


Yup. Problem is, that also describes Brett Favre... So I don't know what to think... I can't say I'm sold on the idea of BVP.

[Taco John]

Have you heard of the old Indian story about a horse finding a drowning snake? The snake asked him for help, the horse didn't want to for fear of being bitten. The rattler then promised not to bite so the horse saved him and took him uphill to dry land where the sun warmed the snake and as soon as the horse put him down the snake bit him.

As the horse lay dying, he asked why did you do it?

The snake replied I am what I am. You knew that when you helped me.

To make a laboured point, Jake isn't going to magically transform into an efficient pocket passer. He is what he is. Jake isn't devolving back into the QB he used to be in Zona, he always was that QB. We all need to know that. So it's up the coaches/defense/RBs to make up for limiting his involvement in the offense. So yes, he'll have some games where he throws very little, dinks and dunks etc so we can limit his mistakes.



If I was that horse I would have killed that ********* snake...

[fontaine]

Harrington (you sure about this? He can't pick up virtually the same offense in Detroit...and you'd want him here? He looks worse than Jake), Ramsay (what has he done?), Rivers (hate his throwing motion, get about 5 balls a game batted down), Rattay (he gets injured constantly), David Garrard (just signed long term deal in offseason), Chris Sims (not only no but HELL NO)

The point is my friend, every one of these QBs is young and has a ton of potential. I'm willing to bet at least two/three of these guys could turn out to be very good in the right offense with (most importantly) the right coaching. I believe Shanahan's track record in coaching QBs is second to NONE in the league. All he needs is a young guy with potential. We dont need to put them in right away but see how they progress before we put them on the field.

With Jake, he's already plateaued and he isn't going to change or greatly improve after a decade of being the same QB in the NFL. We need a QB for the future who can improve and fit into this offense.

[fontaine]

I'll be pissed off if we don't make a run at David Garrard.

I'm just the messenger. You'll have to take your requests and complaints to management at Dove Valley.

Nnyah!

[Mile High Shack]

The point is my friend, every one of these QBs is young and has a ton of potential. I'm willing to bet at least two/three of these guys could turn out to be very good in the right offense with (most importantly) the right coaching. I believe Shanahan's track record in coaching QBs is second to NONE in the league. All he needs is a young guy with potential. We dont need to put them in right away but see how they progress before we put them on the field.

With Jake, he's already plateaued and he isn't going to change or greatly improve after a decade of being the same QB in the NFL. We need a QB for the future who can improve and fit into this offense.

the only QB I've seen people come up with is Jake Delhome that would be better than Jake

and Delhome was signed a year after Jake got signed by us, so that wouldn't of worked out

[Mile High Shack]

I'm just the messenger. You'll have to take your requests and complaints to management at Dove Valley.

Nnyah!

again

how are we going to "make a run at him" if he already signed a deal this offseason?

[fontaine]

Plummer had a bad game throwing the ball and clearly had trouble gripping the ball in the weather. He has small hands just like Elway who also had some awful bad weather games. His receivers, other than Smith, are pedestrian at best and he was playing against another great defense.


In that case Mark Brunell must have the worlds biggest hands with great WRs because he threw for over 300 yards, 3 TDs, and brought his team back against a good defense in the same weather.

I'm not down on Jake. I know, and EXPECT him to play average/below par against good defenses. That's been his profile for years. To Jake's credit he does play better against weak pass defenses, but the question you have to ask yourself is when was the last time any team faced 3/4 weak defenses in the playoffs on their way to winning the SuperBowl?

[Garcia Bronco]

First off...Lelie doesn't have much trade value....second...he can't catch that well...crucial for a receiver...but if he wanted to get trade he need only do one thing.....hire rosenhause as an agent.

[ZachKC]

I was seeking a trade from this board but you guys slapped the franchise tag on me.

I feel the love.

[fontaine]

again

how are we going to "make a run at him" if he already signed a deal this offseason?

C'mon MHS, I've already said we've got a ton of draft picks. You think with guys like Ramsay, Rivers available for a trade that the Jags won't jump at the chance for a late 2nd for Garrard?

[Mile High Shack]

C'mon MHS, I've already said we've got a ton of draft picks. You think with guys like Ramsay, Rivers available for a trade that the Jags won't jump at the chance for a late 2nd or Garrard?

you'd mortgage our future for David Garrard?

I'd rather draft a QB

[Garcia Bronco]

And Ed Reed was sitting right there... ohhhh, it hurts...


that's the killer....we could have had Reed.

[elsid13]

Did you miss the fact that Tatum Bell was scoring touchdowns on plays designed to go maybe 5 yards due to the fact that he has break away speed? Our speed at runningback is the only reason we won the game yesterday.


Tatum has speed to make the plays, Anderson doesn't. When we see more Bell in there thing will open up. IT was back hand slap at Anderson's lack of speed TJ. Image what would happen if Bell was the featured back.

Edit:

Were are the TEs? because the lack of production is joke.

[Taco John]

and Delhome was signed a year after Jake got signed by us, so that wouldn't of worked out



Are you sure about that? I'm pretty sure they were available at the same time.

[fontaine]

you'd mortgage our future for David Garrard?

I'd rather draft a QB

:crazy:

Damnit, I was just answering your question as to how he would be available. I'm not advocating a specific choice because I won't pretend to know something, I know very little about. All I know is that there will be plenty of choices and we have the right guy (shanahan) to make the call.

[fontaine]

Are you sure about that? I'm pretty sure they were available at the same time.

That is correct.

[Taco John]

Tatum has speed to make the plays, Anderson doesn't. When we see more Bell in there thing will open up. IT was back hand slap at anderson lack of speed TJ. Image what would happen if Bell was the featured back.


Personally, I love the way they are being used as a tandem. I think it really works for us.

[-Slap-]

I guess Garrard signed a three year extension in April. Apparently he doesn't want to be a starter in this League after all.

[elsid13]

Personally, I love the way they are being used as a tandem. I think it really works for us.


I don't mind the tandem, but want the ratio of run reversed. More for Bell.

But answer to your question, Lelie will be here long time, and will be successful if the g@@da#m F##3 TEs sit-up and become viable pass opition. Plummer needs to look for Putz and Alexander more. Force the Safeties to cover them give Lelie opperunity on the outside.

[Mile High Shack]

Are you sure about that? I'm pretty sure they were available at the same time.
wasn't Delhome first year with Carolina 2 years ago when they went to the superbowl?

I could be wrong though

[Taco John]

wasn't Delhome first year with Carolina 2 years ago when they went to the superbowl?

I could be wrong though



Yeah, the same year we signed Jake.

[-Slap-]

wasn't Delhome first year with Carolina 2 years ago when they went to the superbowl?

I could be wrong though
The two Jakes were on the market simultaneously. We picked the fake Jake.

[elsid13]

wasn't Delhome first year with Carolina 2 years ago when they went to the superbowl?

I could be wrong though


Plummer and Delhome were FA at the same time. Panthers went after Delhome hard after he left the Saint. And signed in first couple of days into free agency. Shanahan went after Plummer because he wanted more mobilty. Sick of playing with statue that was Griese.

[Taco John]

But answer to your question, Lelie will be here long time, and will be successful if the g@@da#m F##3 TEs sit-up and become viable pass opition. Plummer needs to look for Putz and Alexander more. Force the Safeties to cover them give Lelie opperunity on the outside.



I don't think we'll ever know what we really have as pass catching targets until either Jake improves (not holding my breath) or we get a quarterback who can see the field and throw an accurate pass.

[Mile High Shack]

Plummer and Delhome were FA at the same time. Panthers went after Delhome hard after he left the Saint. And signed in first couple of days into free agency. Shanahan went after Plummer because he wanted more mobilty. Sick of playing with statue that was Griese.

you are correct

I was wrong

sorry about that

hindsight sucks, I wish we would've got Delhome

[Taco John]

I don't know what the point of that excersize was anyway Shack. Whoever else was available is irrelevant to the present.

[meangene]

In that case Mark Brunell must have the worlds biggest hands with great WRs because he threw for over 300 yards, 3 TDs, and brought his team back against a good defense in the same weather.

I'm not down on Jake. I know, and EXPECT him to play average/below par against good defenses. That's been his profile for years. To Jake's credit he does play better against weak pass defenses, but the question you have to ask yourself is when was the last time any team faced 3/4 weak defenses in the playoffs on their way to winning the SuperBowl?

Brunell threw the ball over 50 times. He should have 300 yards and his team was behind all day as well. That being said, he had a great game and obviously had no trouble with the weather. He has also had some lousy games this year and stunk up the place last year. Jake had a poor game - admittedly. But, it happens. And his poor games are not necessarily against weak defenses. He played well against San Diego and Jacksonville. During our Super Bowl seasons we had plenty of games where the offensive output was minimal in the passing game. Remember the first Super Bowl win? The point is to win the Super Bowl you must be solid in all phases. Sometimes you win ugly like yesterday. Sometimes you win with defense, sometimes you run the ball, etc. IMO Jake is good enough to win with. He will have some big games throwing the ball this year and it would help if we could get our running back / receiver situation straightened out.

[TheDave]

Does everyone here realize that we are 4-1??? Damn with shuch a crappy QB, WR, and OL...not to mention our numbnuts of a coaching staff (especially Kubes). Damn people get a Fvcking grip. It was a nasty, sloppy game that in years past we lose. Look around the league and see how many teams are 3-2 or 2-3. The days of dominating games is over.

From what i can tell we have a defense that will keep us in every game. A running attack that will always produce and a QB that is not turning the ball over (since Miami)...In todays NFL that is enough for me. I to would like to see more out of Lelie, but as long as we are winning games I'll find a way to be content.

[elsid13]

you are correct

I was wrong

sorry about that

hindsight sucks, I wish we would've got Delhome


Nothing to be sorry about. Beside who knows how Delhome would have worked out in Denver. You play the cards you're dealt and play to win.

[Rascal]

I don't know what the point of that excersize was anyway Shack. Whoever else was available is irrelevant to the present.

Yet people continue to talk about Ed Reed being available. :thumbs:

[Dr. Broncenstein]

I'd like to see us put a package of draft picks together for David Carr....

[Crushaholic]

I cringed when Lelie dropped that wide open pass, but I also cringed when Rod Smith dropped a couple of passes. I cringed when Putzier dropped a couple of passes. I don't think this game is the one to judge Lelie. This was an ugly game and Jake had a bad day. There's no getting around that. At times he had to throw it where the Washington DB couldn't catch it, effectively overthrowing it. I still think that Lelie has a future in Denver, as long as he doesn't go "flava clown" on us when he's a free agent. Get rid of Watts instead. He's worthless here.

[fontaine]

Brunell threw the ball over 50 times. He should have 300 yards and his team was behind all day as well. That being said, he had a great game and obviously had no trouble with the weather. He has also had some lousy games this year and stunk up the place last year. Jake had a poor game - admittedly. But, it happens. And his poor games are not necessarily against weak defenses. He played well against San Diego and Jacksonville. During our Super Bowl seasons we had plenty of games where the offensive output was minimal in the passing game. Remember the first Super Bowl win? The point is to win the Super Bowl you must be solid in all phases. Sometimes you win ugly like yesterday. Sometimes you win with defense, sometimes you run the ball, etc. IMO Jake is good enough to win with. He will have some big games throwing the ball this year and it would help if we could get our running back / receiver situation straightened out.

Yes we can win with Jake.

But we also know what we have with Jake. A QB than can only get us so far, given that we have a good defense/running game.

Jake has the rest of the season to make it happen but I doubt he's the future of this franchise.

Let me ask you this question: How long before Jake loses enough of his mobility to totally mess up his game? His saving grace at the moment is that he can make things happen on the run, rollout, bootleg etc. What happens in one/two years when he's 32/33 and can't use that mobility?

I want to be in a position where this team can have a successor for Jake as early as possible because it's going to get very ugly when Jake loses that edge in his mobility.

[Beantown Bronco]

To those that say "Jake is not an NFL QB".....and there are a few of you....please get off the drugs. The guy is 23 and 11 as a Broncos starter.....and the Broncos are 1-4 without him in that time period. He has 4 TDs, 0 INTs and a rating in the high 90s in the last 3 games against some strong defenses and he's "not an NFL QB"....He may not be putting up flashy numbers, but he's getting the job done.

Unbelievable.

[Ray Finkle]

all of you who are claimoring for Delhomme, have you watched his games? He locks on Steve Smith and only Steve Smith most of the time.....look at the stupid INT's he has thrown because of it. The only difference between the two Jakes is that the Panthers made it to the super bowl his first year. Otherwise he would be just another decent QB....

[BurgundyNGold]

all of you who are claimoring for Delhomme, have you watched his games? He locks on Steve Smith and only Steve Smith most of the time.....look at the stupid INT's he has thrown because of it. The only difference between the two Jakes is that the Panthers made it to the super bowl his first year. Otherwise he would be just another decent QB....
Steve Smith is a freakin' beast who only seems to get beter with each game. He is definitely a top 10 WR in this leage. Given that, who else does he have to throw to? Rod Gardner? He can't even get in the game and when he does, he drops TDs. Why wouldn't you look for Steve Smith as often as possible?

[Merlin]

I heard an interview with Shanny in which he stated that he would have pursued Delhome if he had known he was that good; consequently, he was not even in their radar.

As to the problems with the pass, I would like to wait another 2-4 games before drawing any conclusions about Lelie and this yrs passing game. There were a few posters all over the OL and Denver's running game after the Miami debacle, and look how stupid the complaints sound now. Not only have we run on the Skins, it was our running game that won the game against SD and the Skins, 2 tough opponents against the run.

Obviously Jake had an incredibly poor game yesterday, but those conditions do not repeat themselves that often, and he still managed the game well enough to win (in fact, the only reason he did not get a TD to Lelie near the end was because of incredible bad luck and a non call for PI, the CB was not even looking at the ball). I bet with the way the running game is getting established, and the 2 headed nature of the beast, the passing game is going to get a lot better within the next 3 games. In fact, I think NE may be the first game Denver may light it up (their D is going through some serious troubled times, and Shanny has always game planed well against them).

[Taco John]

Does everyone here realize that we are 4-1??? Damn with shuch a crappy QB, WR, and OL...not to mention our numbnuts of a coaching staff (especially Kubes). Damn people get a Fvcking grip. It was a nasty, sloppy game that in years past we lose. Look around the league and see how many teams are 3-2 or 2-3. The days of dominating games is over.

From what i can tell we have a defense that will keep us in every game. A running attack that will always produce and a QB that is not turning the ball over (since Miami)...In todays NFL that is enough for me. I to would like to see more out of Lelie, but as long as we are winning games I'll find a way to be content.



For my part, I'm not worried about the games we've already played. I'm worried about the ones we still have to come. Jake can prove a lot and shut people up by coming through week 6 with a win.

[Rascal]

You guys can b**** and moan about Jake all you want, personally I think it's a load of crap and I'm glad to have him as our QB. Sure he makes you bang your head against a wall in anger but then so did Elway. If Plummer had Elway's stats of his younger years here you guys would be calling for his head....errrr wait.

What's our record again? You guys would find something to b**** about if we were 16-0.

Lelie had three drops yesterday...if he learned to catch the ball maybe his stats would improve??? Not including this past game Rod was thrown to 34 times and caught 26 (76%), while as Lelie caught 10 of the 28 that were thrown to him (36%). 'Nuff said.

Hell...Charlie Adams has been thrown to 10 times and caught 8 of them!!

[Ray Finkle]

The Broncos are playing a similar offense to what the Steelers played last year....I have no problem with that....

[Rascal]

For my part, I'm not worried about the games we've already played. I'm worried about the ones we still have to come. Jake can prove a lot and shut people up by coming through week 6 with a win.

So winning the past three mean nothing, but the next two do? :puff:

[meangene]

Yes we can win with Jake.

But we also know what we have with Jake. A QB than can only get us so far, given that we have a good defense/running game.

Jake has the rest of the season to make it happen but I doubt he's the future of this franchise.

Let me ask you this question: How long before Jake loses enough of his mobility to totally mess up his game? His saving grace at the moment is that he can make things happen on the run, rollout, bootleg etc. What happens in one/two years when he's 32/33 and can't use that mobility?

I want to be in a position where this team can have a successor for Jake as early as possible because it's going to get very ugly when Jake loses that edge in his mobility.

He's hardly on life support. Unless he suffers some severe injury in the next couple of years I really don't see him losing much mobility. Did you see OLD Brunell moving around yesterday?

With the money we have commited to Plummer he is your guy for the next several years whether you like it or not. It's too early to start grooming a quarterback of the future unless we hit on a low round pick or free agent out of college. We can not afford to use an early pick on a QB of the future when he'll be a free agent by the time he's ready to play. Unless a Leinhart or Vince Young somehow falls in our laps I just don't see it. With the way the Skins played yesterday I wouldn't count on their pick being an early one.

[Ray Finkle]

scouting reports on the two....delhomme.... <table class="fchartbkg" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="1" width="602"> <tbody><tr><td class="flrow1">Assets</td> <td class="flrow1">Fiery, outspoken competitor. A gambler on the field. Has a very good arm and gets good velocity on outs and sideline routes. Runs well and can buy time. Will bail on some plays and gets rid of the ball quickly to avoid the sack.</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="flrow2">Flaws</td> <td class="flrow2">Doesn't throw a great deep ball. Forces some passes and will get picked off. Not great mechanically; will come over-the-top or throw when his feet aren't set and will lose his accuracy at times.</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="flrow1">Career potential</td> <td class="flrow1">Very good starter with upside.

</td></tr></tbody> </table>
alright the Plummer one is a little outdated but...

Assets Very heady and creative. Has a gambler's mentality and a knack for miracle comebacks. Throws a nice deep ball. Mobile enough to avoid the rush or pick up yardage. Cut down his mistakes in 2003 and really responded to Mike Shanahan's coaching.
Flaws Streaky. Doesn't always zip the ball into tight spots. Suffered several injuries last season. Defenses keyed to stop Portis last season and the play-action pass will be less of a weapon this year, forcing Plummer to be more precise.
Career potential Very good starter.

pretty similar to me...

[TheDave]

For my part, I'm not worried about the games we've already played. I'm worried about the ones we still have to come. Jake can prove a lot and shut people up by coming through week 6 with a win.

and yet after every win you come back to complain about Jake... I get it TJ you don't like Jake, but since he is currently 23-11 as a starter maybe it's time to ease up on the hating...just a little.

[Taco John]

So winning the past three mean nothing, but the next two do? :puff:



You're like a dog that gets kicked and keeps coming back expecting a different result. We've started out strong every single year Jake has been here. We've ended weak every single year. I'm not worried about September and October. My primary concerns are November and December.

We could be 4-4 and still win the division. It's how you play in November and December that counts the most.

[Rascal]

Does everyone here realize that we are 4-1??? Damn with shuch a crappy QB, WR, and OL...not to mention our numbnuts of a coaching staff (especially Kubes). Damn people get a Fvcking grip. It was a nasty, sloppy game that in years past we lose. Look around the league and see how many teams are 3-2 or 2-3. The days of dominating games is over.

From what i can tell we have a defense that will keep us in every game. A running attack that will always produce and a QB that is not turning the ball over (since Miami)...In todays NFL that is enough for me. I to would like to see more out of Lelie, but as long as we are winning games I'll find a way to be content.

REP!!!

[Ray Finkle]

You're like a dog that gets kicked and keeps coming back expecting a different result. We've started out strong every single year Jake has been here. We've ended weak every single year. I'm not worried about September and October. My primary concerns are November and December.

We could be 4-4 and still win the division. It's how you play in November and December that counts the most.


I seem to remember the defense sucking in some of those loses the last couple of seasons....

[Taco John]

I seem to remember the defense sucking in some of those loses the last couple of seasons....


Do you seem to remember the offense doing anything to pick up the slack?

[DrFate]

Not a lot of people share my take on Kitna, but I like his poise and work ethic. I think Jeff Garcia would blow us away in this offense. That's for starters...

I like Kitna, I think he is a pretty good player.

You continue to fool yourself on Garcia. This guy is simply done.

[Rascal]

You're like a dog that gets kicked and keeps coming back expecting a different result. We've started out strong every single year Jake has been here. We've ended weak every single year. I'm not worried about September and October. My primary concerns are November and December.

We could be 4-4 and still win the division. It's how you play in November and December that counts the most.

And you're the guy fixing to be hung that whats a new rope and new engine in his car so it will run the 60 in under 5. You won't be happy at QB unless we have Elway.

Those were previous years, I'll wait till this year is over before bitching and moaning about who needs to be replaced. Hell that includes Carlisle and for me that's pretty damn huge.

[Taco John]

You won't be happy at QB unless we have Elway.



Absolutely wrong.

[Rascal]

and yet after every win you come back to complain about Jake... I get it TJ you don't like Jake, but since he is currently 23-11 as a starter maybe it's time to ease up on the hating...just a little.

I'd rep you again if I could.

[Taco John]

and yet after every win you come back to complain about Jake... I get it TJ you don't like Jake, but since he is currently 23-11 as a starter maybe it's time to ease up on the hating...just a little.


I'll ease up on Jake when he doesn't look like the anchor holding this offense back. Not a second before.

[Rascal]

Absolutely wrong.

The fact that after almost every win (and of course every lost since it's always his fault and never the D's or anybody else) in which Plummer doesn't throw for almost 300 yards and 2-3 TD's you are in here bitching about him would suggest otherwise.

[TheDave]

I'll ease up on Jake when he doesn't look like the anchor holding this offense back. Not a second before.

This is bording on clinical behavior... Were's Popps when you need him?

[DrFate]

I'll ease up on Jake when he doesn't look like the anchor holding this offense back. Not a second before.

I don't think this offense puts up 40 points/per if you plug Manning or McNabb back there, either. I don't think Jake is an all pro, either.

This team is weak at WR and weak at TE. Their OLine play is hit or miss (it was alright against the Skins). Bell is a game breaker, but he needs to see the field more.

The whole concept of giving Putzier millions of dollars instead of letting the Jets have him is beyond me. Give me the draft pick. And as much as I want Lelie to flourish I just don't think he can do more than run a 'go' route' And he drops TOO MANY BALLS.

[Taco John]

The fact that after almost every win (and of course every lost since it's always his fault and never the D's or anybody else) in which Plummer doesn't throw for almost 300 yards and 2-3 TD's you are in here b****ing about him would suggest otherwise.


The fact that I defended Griese despite knowing he was nothing but an average QB would suggest you're wrong.

I'm on Jake because he's the weakest link on our team, not because he's not Elway.

[TheDave]

The fact that I defended Griese


And in walks the crux of the Problem...

[Taco John]

And in walks the crux of the Problem...



How so? Jake's problems have absolutely nothing to do with Griese.

[TheDave]

How so? Jake's problems have absolutely nothing to do with Griese.

For everyone not named TJ... yes, that's true.

[Taco John]

For everyone not named TJ... yes, that's true.

That makes zero sense. You admit I'm right at least.

You'll get a chuckle from some people out of that. But it's completely false. Jake's struggles have absolutely nothing to do with Griese. My criticism of Jake has absolutely nothing to do with Griese.

[TheDave]

Well, you'll get a chuckle from some people out of that. But it's completely false. Jake's struggles have absolutely nothing to do with Griese. My criticism of Jake has absolutely nothing to do with Griese.

and yet you keep mentioning his name... Why's that?

[Taco John]

and yet you keep mentioning his name... Why's that?



Because I was accused of not being happy unless Elway was at quarterback. I proved that not to be the case by mentioning Griese. You then came at me about Griese. So I mentioned his name.

[Taco John]

If this was about Griese, I'd be starting threads about hwo much of a better quarterback he looks than Jake this year. Is that what you want? I can go there. I choose not to.

[Rascal]

But you think Griese is a better QB then Jake?

[Taco John]

Hell... I just might start thinking about doing it. People want my criticism about Jake to be about Griese. It's not, but damned if there isn't a whole lot of ammunition there that would work in my favor, given Tampa Bay's team is built similarly to ours.

I'm not going to go there... but if people continue to ask for it, I might oblige them.

[BMF Bronco]

If this was about Griese, I'd be starting threads about hwo much of a better quarterback he looks than Jake this year. Is that what you want? I can go there. I choose not to.
Not so much, I thought he was doing a decent job until he pulled out the old SOB tactics yesterday and last week, ints and throwing the ball in wrong place with the game on the line (middle of the field, less than 20 seconds left, no time outs). I made the comment on how it's good to see the old Brian is back, and in under 6 weeks!

[Taco John]

But you think Griese is a better QB then Jake?


I think they are of similar calibre. I think Griese is a better pocket passer. I think he's terrible on the roll-out. I think he's a steadier hand than Jake with protection, but incapable of fixing a broken play. Griese is more accurate than Jake, but less able to deal with the rush. Both are morons under pressure.

[TheDave]

God this is getting old...

All right TJ... You win. Jake sucks, were Doomed. Just one question, what do you propose that we do about it for the up comming game?

[Rock Chalk]

I knew I shouldnt have opened this thread.

[Broncoman13]

I like the thought of John Kitna. More so I like the thought of David Carr. The man will be available b/c the Texans feel he isn't the answer... They don't realize that when he's running for his life 98% of the time he can't get the job done! What a messed up franchise. They've known they need help along the OL for 3 years. 3 years they've drafted WR's or Defense early. They could have had either Brown or Barron this year. They decided they needed more help on defense. Turns out Carr has been sacked 27 times this year... in 4 games!!! He has just as much mobility as Plummer. A stronger arm. And, if given time he'll have more success. The talent is there!

[Kaylore]

I knew I shouldnt have opened this thread.
No joke. Taco, you're starting to turn into a caricature of yourself with your Jake complaining. It's starting to get Telluridish.

[Broncoman13]

Jake isn't the answer. You can't deny that. Shanny is taking the game out of his hands. 10-25 for under 100 yards. Sure he's not throwing INT's, but TRENT DILFER used to have better #'s for the Ravens. I can't believe people don't see how poor he's playing. He's had one good game this year. That happened to be against the Chokes and he wasn't that special in that one either! I don't need a QB that throws for 300 yards and 3 TD's every week. But, I don't think that 230 and 2 TD's every once in awhile is out of the question. Anybody that's happy with Plummer right now is fooling themselves. He's by far the weakest link on this team. The only good thing you can say about him is that he isn't costing us games by turning the ball over. He's playing not to lose rather than being the difference in winning. I think TJ's anchor reference was RIGHT ON!

As for Ash. Last year he was capable of putting up 1000 and 7 TD's. You telling me that he's not capable of doing the same now? Find a QB that can get him the ball and he'll fit in. Keep Jake here and you might as well trade Ash, Tatum, and anybody else on offense that shows promise. Bring in as much D as possible b/c that's the only way we're going to win games! Isn't it obvious to you people that Shanny has basically tied the reins back on Jake?

[Rock Chalk]

No joke. Taco, you're starting to turn into a caricature of yourself with your Jake complaining. It's starting to get Telluridish.
Taco hasnt started one thread worth a **** in 2 years.

[24champ]

Trade Lelie for Braylon Edwards (heard he is a bust), we seem to do good trades with the browns.

[Ratboy]

I could see this happening, but i dont know who would give us a first for him? We could package and get a player.

Matt Schaub could be on the market after this season and If we're in need of a future QB, we should look at him.

Against Pats:
18/34 298 yards 3 touchdowns

and against Vikings he has like 50 yards rushing, He's very mobile.

[Rock Chalk]

Jake isn't the answer. You can't deny that. Shanny is taking the game out of his hands. 10-25 for under 100 yards. Sure he's not throwing INT's, but TRENT DILFER used to have better #'s for the Ravens. I can't believe people don't see how poor he's playing. He's had one good game this year. That happened to be against the Chokes and he wasn't that special in that one either! I don't need a QB that throws for 300 yards and 3 TD's every week. But, I don't think that 230 and 2 TD's every once in awhile is out of the question. Anybody that's happy with Plummer right now is fooling themselves. He's by far the weakest link on this team. The only good thing you can say about him is that he isn't costing us games by turning the ball over. He's playing not to lose rather than being the difference in winning. I think TJ's anchor reference was RIGHT ON!

Whats Denver's record under Jake? I dont gie a **** bout stats, the only people that do are the ones on Mannings jock. All I care about is wins. Wins are all the matters. Jake gets us wins under center. Not always because of him, but not always despite him either. I'd rather have Jake whom the players like and want to follow under center than someone who is more accurate but no one likes in the locker room (ala Griese).

As for Ash. Last year he was capable of putting up 1000 and 7 TD's. You telling me that he's not capable of doing the same now? Find a QB that can get him the ball and he'll fit in. Keep Jake here and you might as well trade Ash, Tatum, and anybody else on offense that shows promise. Bring in as much D as possible b/c that's the only way we're going to win games! Isn't it obvious to you people that Shanny has basically tied the reins back on Jake?
Yes, he tied the reigns on Jake, which is exactly what he should have been doing two years ago. Jake is never going to be Payton Manning, or even Drew Brees for that matter. Jake is Jake and has his advantages and disadvantages. His advantages at this point in time, seem to be working more favorably than his disadvantages.

4-1 and room for improvement. Im not complaining about anyone. Not ashley, not Ian, not Jake, not the offensive line, not the defensive line, not the stupid coverage schemes even Mediator doesnt like, nothing. Until this team starts tanking games it should win, instead of fighting for 60 minutes, Im not complaining about ****.

[Crushaholic]

I knew I shouldnt have opened this thread.

This thread was originally about Lelie and it devolved into Jake vs. that guy in Tampa Bay. :nono:

[Rock Chalk]

This thread was originally about Lelie and it devolved into Jake vs. that guy in Tampa Bay. :nono:
I'll give you two guess as to how that happened. You will probably only need one though.

[Taco John]

Trade Lelie for Braylon Edwards (heard he is a bust), we seem to do good trades with the browns.

Nice call... back to the topic at hand before the Plummer helpers hijacked it...

That might be an idea. I have little worries about Lelie burning us if he plays on the Browns. Aside from that, I like the idea of packaging Lelie in a trade that includes draft picks for better position in the draft. I honestly don't believe he has any reason to stick around Denver.

[Rock Chalk]

Nice call... back to the topic at hand before the Plummer helpers hijacked it...

That might be an idea. I have little worries about Lelie burning us if he plays on the Browns. Aside from that, I like the idea of packaging Lelie in a trade that includes draft picks for better position in the draft. I honestly don't believe he has any reason to stick around Denver.
Every time you post, I am grateful you have absolutely no say in Denver's personell decisions.

[24champ]

Nice call... back to the topic at hand before the Plummer helpers hijacked it...

That might be an idea. I have little worries about Lelie burning us if he plays on the Browns. Aside from that, I like the idea of packaging Lelie in a trade that includes draft picks for better position in the draft. I honestly don't believe he has any reason to stick around Denver.

I still think if we have a good season and that means a playoff win, i think lelie is sticking around if ROD retires. I know I hate the thought of ROD leaving. Taco a more realistic trade would be with the texans for Andre Johnson....

[Pat Bowlen]

I don't think this offense puts up 40 points/per if you plug Manning or McNabb back there, either.
Oh, man. I completely disagree. McNabb could be a monster here in Denver.

[Rock Chalk]

Oh, man. I completely disagree. McNabb could be a monster here in Denver.
Word, we would be unstoppable with McNabb.

[Taco John]

I still think if we have a good season and that means a playoff win, i think lelie is sticking around if ROD retires. I know I hate the thought of ROD leaving. Taco a more realistic trade would be with the texans for Andre Johnson....



I don't know about that. I don't know what the brass in Texas feels, but it seems to me that their offensive woes start up front. I think it would behoove the Texans to hold onto their skill positions and trade down to pick up Olinemen... Which is where we come in. I think it might behoove us to trade our top two picks and Lelie to move up and draft a quarterback early...

[TheDave]

If Lelie is such a bust...then why would anyone trade for him?

[Pat Bowlen]

Every time you post, I am grateful you have absolutely no say in Denver's personell decisions.
And to think, I was this close to letting him choose the hot dog vendors for next season.

[24champ]

Hey taco can we throw WALLS in the trade package too?

[Broncoman13]

Whats Denver's record under Jake? I dont gie a **** bout stats, the only people that do are the ones on Mannings jock. All I care about is wins. Wins are all the matters. Jake gets us wins under center. Not always because of him, but not always despite him either. I'd rather have Jake whom the players like and want to follow under center than someone who is more accurate but no one likes in the locker room (ala Griese).

Yes, he tied the reigns on Jake, which is exactly what he should have been doing two years ago. Jake is never going to be Payton Manning, or even Drew Brees for that matter. Jake is Jake and has his advantages and disadvantages. His advantages at this point in time, seem to be working more favorably than his disadvantages.

4-1 and room for improvement. Im not complaining about anyone. Not ashley, not Ian, not Jake, not the offensive line, not the defensive line, not the stupid coverage schemes even Mediator doesnt like, nothing. Until this team starts tanking games it should win, instead of fighting for 60 minutes, Im not complaining about ****.

Go back and look at those 11 losses. I bet you can point to Jake Plummer and his numbers for atleast 8 of those losses! Then look at his wins and tell me that he's responsible for more than half of them. I'm sure you'll tell me that Jake won the game for us yesterday b/c he didn't turn the ball over. Playing not to lose is vastly different from being the reason we won. He hasn't won a game for us in a LONG TIME! He has been the reason we've lost. And in many cases we've won IN SPITE OF HIM! Again, if you don't see it you're fooling yourself.

That being said I actually like Jake and think some of his non-success is b/c of Shanny/Kubes and their playcalling. Yesterday on one of the rollouts Jake had all kinds of time and several open WR's. He could have went down field, but it seems that Shanny had him under his thumb. Instead he threw the ball for a 2 or 3 yard gain. So I'll agree that coaching leaves a little to be desired... that or they've already figured out the same thing. He's not the reason we win games, but he certainly has been the reason we've lost games!!!

And please don't comeback with the 2TD arguement in Jax. He had 2 TD's from the 1 yard line. Weak arguement. The D and the running game was the reason we won in Jax.

[Dudeskey]

More so I like the thought of David Carr. The man will be available b/c the Texans feel he isn't the answer... They don't realize that when he's running for his life 98% of the time he can't get the job done! What a messed up franchise. They've known they need help along the OL for 3 years. 3 years they've drafted WR's or Defense early. They could have had either Brown or Barron this year. They decided they needed more help on defense. Turns out Carr has been sacked 27 times this year... in 4 games!!! He has just as much mobility as Plummer. A stronger arm. And, if given time he'll have more success. The talent is there!

Carr is a waaay better QB than Plummer. I wouldn't be upset at all if they dropped Plummer and signed Carr...™

[Taco John]

Hey taco can we throw WALLS in the trade package too?



If I'm not mistaken, Walls is a free agent who will likely get a big contract just for the fact that he's tall.

[Taco John]

If Lelie is such a bust...then why would anyone trade for him?



I personally don't believe Lelie to be a bust.

[DarkHorse]

Where did all this Braylon Edwards talk come into play? A bust? After 4 games LMFAO

Ok - damn the standards in the NFL are pretty freaking high if this dude is a bust after 4 games. And I thought coaches had it bad.

[TheDave]

I personally don't believe Lelie to be a bust.

Then why trade him? If the money is right he won't go anywhere. Right now i'm not sure if he is worth good-big money, but we have the luxury of this season and next to make that determination.

[Ray Finkle]

I could see this happening, but i dont know who would give us a first for him? We could package and get a player.

Matt Schaub could be on the market after this season and If we're in need of a future QB, we should look at him.

Against Pats:
18/34 298 yards 3 touchdowns

and against Vikings he has like 50 yards rushing, He's very mobile.


The Atlanta GM said he wouldn't take a 1st rounder for Schaub...Schaub played over his head yesterday...

[Rock Chalk]

Go back and look at those 11 losses. I bet you can point to Jake Plummer and his numbers for atleast 8 of those losses! Then look at his wins and tell me that he's responsible for more than half of them. I'm sure you'll tell me that Jake won the game for us yesterday b/c he didn't turn the ball over. Playing not to lose is vastly different from being the reason we won. He hasn't won a game for us in a LONG TIME! He has been the reason we've lost. And in many cases we've won IN SPITE OF HIM! Again, if you don't see it you're fooling yourself.

Maybe Jake is responsible for 8 losses all to himself. 8 losses in 3 years though? That's not a good number? I kinda thought it was.

That being said I actually like Jake and think some of his non-success is b/c of Shanny/Kubes and their playcalling. Yesterday on one of the rollouts Jake had all kinds of time and several open WR's. He could have went down field, but it seems that Shanny had him under his thumb. Instead he threw the ball for a 2 or 3 yard gain. So I'll agree that coaching leaves a little to be desired... that or they've already figured out the same thing. He's not the reason we win games, but he certainly has been the reason we've lost games!!!

Jake is the reason we have won games too. Without Jake, we dont beat Cleveland. Without Jake, we dont beat Tampa Bay. I have NEVER claimed Jake is the reason we win games. We win games, like the Patriots, because of the team effort. Thats the way it should be. Elway never won a superbowl by himself, but rather because of the team effort put in.

And please don't comeback with the 2TD arguement in Jax. He had 2 TD's from the 1 yard line. Weak arguement. The D and the running game was the reason we won in Jax.
I would like to think that I deserve more credit with my football analysis than for you to suggest I would put the Jax game on Jake. :nono:

[Popps]

Jake gets us wins under center. Not always because of him, but not always despite him either.

Jake could win his next 200 games in a row, throw 600 TDs and no INTs... and you'd still be here trying to convince people of that. People around this place pick a position, and they never waiver from it, no matter how much logic you throw at them.


As for Lelie, he's got no trade value. The rest of the league isn't stupid. They can watch him in our games dropping balls.... listen to the announcers talk about how the club wants him to step up this year, bla bla. There's nothing special about him. He's fast. So are a lot of guys in the NFL. I've NEVER seen anything out of him that leads me to believe he's a "Ferrari," whatsoever.

Give me one reason he's any better of a prospect than Adams, Watts or Devoe? Why, because he was drafted higher? Adams looks more polished, already... Watts has better all around physical tools (imo) and Devoe looks extremely fast, competent.

Keep Lelie around so he can run his fly route for another year, then let him walk. Develop our young guys, draft another. Maybe Lelie will fit in somewhere in some gimmick offense. Hey, anyone still using the Run and Shoot?