Espn Insider on Plummer

[elsid13]

ESPN has insider piece on the “uncharacteristic” play of the Culpepper, Raven run defense and Plummer play. For the those with insider link is:

http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=green_jeremy

Summary is that Plummer is throwing less in then past year, and especial less passes in the two wins in last two weeks. States that Shanahan and rest of the staff are willing to sacrifice some of Plummer speculator plays for move consist passing game. The only real nugget is this line:

“Ashley Lelie has only two catches in the past two weeks. He is not happy about that lack of production, but the team is winning. “ Is this true or just another “insider” getting the wrong message.

About the Raven run game poor line play (getting old and not moving as well) and Lewis ankle surgery. Mean they are unable to run the cut back. Culpepper it the lack of trust in offensive line and WR, ie he got happy feet and is pressing.

[DarkHorse30]

only real nugget is this line:

“Ashley Lelie has only two catches in the past two weeks. He is not happy about that lack of production, but the team is winning. “ Is this true or just another “insider” getting the wrong message.



I think it's the right message. IMO, it's good that Lelie is unhappy about "the lack of production". Doesn't say he is unhappy with the offense....just his role in it. I'd say he joins the bulk of the fanbase in his response.

[kent156]

ok leile don't turn into a TO you will get your catches.

[Jason in LA]

The past two games they were playing with leads, and pretty much shut down the passing game in the second half. That's just being smart. Plummer passed a decent amount in the first half of both games. And he looked good doing it.

[Rascal]

It was shown in the other thread that he isn't throwing less...he is just throwing for less yards.

[Broncoman13]

Good point J. Had Shanny passed a lot in the 2nd halfs and Jake made some mistakes there would be several of us all over him! Smart game plan and it's Shanny at his best. Get a lead and then pound them into submission.

[Ballhawk]

It was shown in the other thread that he isn't throwing less...he is just throwing for less yards.

and actually i he had hit Lelie who was wide open the yardage would be fairly close also.

[Jason in LA]

Against the Chiefs Lelie was wide open on two bombs that Plummer missed him on. If Plummer hits those two passes they'd both have a good 80 extra yards and two TDs.

I think Lelie is feeling the heat because he has the bust lable hanging over his head. But the problem is he hasn't had a lot of opportunities over the past two games. They aren't passing for damn near half the game because they are in the lead.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Against the Chiefs Lelie was wide open on two bombs that Plummer missed him on. If Plummer hits those two passes they'd both have a good 80 extra yards and two TDs.

I think Lelie is feeling the heat because he has the bust lable hanging over his head. But the problem is he hasn't had a lot of opportunities over the past two games. They aren't passing for damn near half the game because they are in the lead.
Nobody who gets over 50 catches and 1100 yards with a 20 ypc average is even close to being a "bust". He will get his catches. Shanny needed to focus on fixing the running game after the Miami mess so they've been doing less deep balls to lessen the possibility of missing and going 3 and out. I look for them to test Taylor and Springs this week to make them keep from going 8 in the box against MA.

[bendog]

It was shown in the other thread that he isn't throwing less...he is just throwing for less yards.
He's on pace for 464 atts this year, but threw 521 times last. Only down about 3.5 per game, but yeah yds per attmpt is down over 1.5yds. What's interesting is the balance both years in run/pass plays. Very close. Running yds running very close to last year's as well, but this is one of those statiscal anomolies, imo, where Smurf got all those yards early on. This year's running game is not a gimmick

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

Shanhan said on the 560 Neveret/Armstrong show this morning that Lelie's "lack of production" was due to the game plans and that he had been doing all that he was asked to do.

[Mediator12]

ESPN has insider piece on the “uncharacteristic” play of the Culpepper, Raven run defense and Plummer play. For the those with insider link is:

http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=green_jeremy

Summary is that Plummer is throwing less in then past year, and especial less passes in the two wins in last two weeks. States that Shanahan and rest of the staff are willing to sacrifice some of Plummer speculator plays for move consist passing game. The only real nugget is this line:

“Ashley Lelie has only two catches in the past two weeks. He is not happy about that lack of production, but the team is winning. “ Is this true or just another “insider” getting the wrong message.

About the Raven run game poor line play (getting old and not moving as well) and Lewis ankle surgery. Mean they are unable to run the cut back. Culpepper it the lack of trust in offensive line and WR, ie he got happy feet and is pressing.

I think that summary is only partially accurate. This guy is a former pro scout and player personnel director. He states:

"While a player or team playing out of character is normally a bad thing, in the case of QB Jake Plummer, it has been a good thing. The Broncos' motto for Plummer this season should be "less is more."

Jake Plummer has avoided costly interceptions this season. Plummer's numbers are way down this season and that has resulted in better production for the entire offense. In the first two weeks of the season, Plummer attempted 85 passes, while in the past two weeks he has attempted just 44. In the first two weeks, he threw three interceptions. In the past two weeks, he has thrown none.

[BMF Bronco]

and actually i he had hit Lelie who was wide open the yardage would be fairly close also.
Not Plummer's fault that Lelie is an underachiever! He was going at half speed on most of those attempts.

[elsid13]

I think that summary is only partially accurate. This guy is a former pro scout and player personnel director. He states:

"While a player or team playing out of character is normally a bad thing, in the case of QB Jake Plummer, it has been a good thing. The Broncos' motto for Plummer this season should be "less is more."

Jake Plummer has avoided costly interceptions this season. Plummer's numbers are way down this season and that has resulted in better production for the entire offense. In the first two weeks of the season, Plummer attempted 85 passes, while in the past two weeks he has attempted just 44. In the first two weeks, he threw three interceptions. In the past two weeks, he has thrown none.


I sorry about you thinking it was inaccurate. I was trying to strike a balance that give an accurate summary of this guys idea without publishing anything that was copy righted.

[Mediator12]

Not Plummer's fault that Lelie is an underachiever! He was going at half speed on most of those attempts.

I guess the CB's were too since they were five yards behind Him? Maybe they made a pact at the line of scrimmage. Something like:

Lelie: I am going to get behind you on this play whether you like it or not. Let's just run 80% though so we don't get tired, OK.

CB: Yeah that's cool! Thanks, Brotha!

[Mediator12]

I sorry about you thinking it was inaccurate. I was trying to strike a balance that give an accurate summary of this guys idea without publishing anything that was copy righted.

Not inaccurate, just missing something. Rep anyway.

You can not publish the whole thing, but you can take several quotes as long as you provide the link. Thanks for the reference though, I like this guy's premises so far.

[elsid13]

Not inaccurate, just missing something. Rep anyway.

You can not publish the whole thing, but you can take several quotes as long as you provide the link. Thanks for the reference though, I like this guy's premises so far.


No rep need, it always a fine balance using ESPN stuff, it better to fall on side of caution.

With all the Lelie bust talk it sure thing that he has career game against the skins.

[errand]

I think it's the right message. IMO, it's good that Lelie is unhappy about "the lack of production". Doesn't say he is unhappy with the offense....just his role in it. I'd say he joins the bulk of the fanbase in his response.

From what I saw Lelie had a few opportunities to catch more than 3-4 passes in the miami game....he chose to drop them instead.

[BMF Bronco]

I guess the CB's were too since they were five yards behind Him? Maybe they made a pact at the line of scrimmage. Something like:

Lelie: I am going to get behind you on this play whether you like it or not. Let's just run 80% though so we don't get tired, OK.

CB: Yeah that's cool! Thanks, Brotha!
No, ass. You cannot tell me that you didn't see him pretty much say oh $hit, the ball is coming this way on at least two of the long balls in each of the games?!

And of course the corners are going to be five yards behind as well, when the cb sees the reciever give up on the play, 99.99% of the time they are going to follow suit. Comprende?

[Mediator12]

No, ass. You cannot tell me that you didn't see him pretty much say oh $hit, the ball is coming this way on at least two of the long balls in each of the games?!

And of course the corners are going to be five yards behind as well, when the cb sees the reciever give up on the play, 99.99% of the time they are going to follow suit. Comprende?

I am sorry you need to use name calling, but whatever. And please, never attempt to tell me what I think I already have Alec and Popps here to do that.

1. He was attempting to find the ball since it was not in his Zip code on four of the five deep balls thrown his way. If you wish to interpret that as you do feel free, but do not tell me how I can interpret that.

2. Dead wrong. CB's who fail to cover until the whistle get cut. CB's who see a WR give up go make a tackle or go for the Ball in the Air.

[DarkHorse30]

1. He was attempting to find the ball since it was not in his Zip code on four of the five deep balls thrown his way. If you wish to interpret that as you do feel free, but do not tell me how I can interpret that.

2. Dead wrong. CB's who fail to cover until the whistle get cut. CB's who see a WR give up go make a tackle or go for the Ball in the Air.

Plummer is not very accurate as a rule....watch the game from last week and see how many WRs, or TEs were stretching to make a catch. I would guess that most of his picks from last year were because he threw a barely catchable ball. It was great to see Adams and Alexander stretch out and make catches on the two TD drives.

As Shanahan pointed out, the game plan for Jax did not call for a lot of field-stretching....so Lelie would not contribute as much. I don't really see this as a debate, unless someone is convinced Lelie is a bust and forgets that playing good defenses sometimes limits the longball.

[BMF Bronco]

.

2. Dead wrong. CB's who fail to cover until the whistle get cut. CB's who see a WR give up go make a tackle or go for the Ball in the Air.

First off, if I offended you, my apologies.

Second, I don't agree one bit. The perfect example is Lenny Walls, the guy gives up on plays constantly, hence why he gets burned, misses tackles, etc. all the time. I cannot remember what game it was last year but I recall an opposing reciever catching a ball on the sidelines and our cornerback (I believe it was Walls) practically giving up on the play, as if the reciever were going to go out of bounds. The play ended up in a TD. And you're telling me they don't give up on the play? Au contrere!

[Rock Chalk]

I am sorry you need to use name calling, but whatever. And please, never attempt to tell me what I think I already have Alec and Popps here to do that.
I enjoy a good backhanded jab at my expense as much as the next person, but I have never told you what to think.

[Popps]

It was shown in the other thread that he isn't throwing less...he is just throwing for less yards.

I see the media prescribes to the "say it and it's true" mode of thinking that is so popular around here.

[Popps]

I guess the CB's were too since they were five yards behind Him? Maybe they made a pact at the line of scrimmage. Something like:

Lelie: I am going to get behind you on this play whether you like it or not. Let's just run 80% though so we don't get tired, OK.

CB: Yeah that's cool! Thanks, Brotha!

Actually, most CBs know that Lelie has no idea where he's supposed to be on any given play, so they're probably not that worried about covering him. Plus, even if he gets a few steps on a guy, he'll likely just turn around and run back into the DB once the ball is in the air.

As for telling you what you think, Mediator... that's a load of ****. If I were telling you what to think, you'd have a hell of a lot better grasp on what's going on than you do... running around here blaming 49 point defensive performances on Jake Plummer and making excuses for Lelie.

[Mediator12]

Actually, most CBs know that Lelie has no idea where he's supposed to be on any given play, so they're probably not that worried about covering him. Plus, even if he gets a few steps on a guy, he'll likely just turn around and run back into the DB once the ball is in the air.

As for telling you what you think, Mediator... that's a load of ****. If I were telling you what to think, you'd have a hell of a lot better grasp on what's going on than you do... running around here blaming 49 point defensive performances on Jake Plummer and making excuses for Lelie.

That is where you are telling me how to think. You act as if that is the Only acceptable opinon. Guess what? It is not no matter how much YOU think it is.

If you would like to make it personal, make a poll about who knows more about football. You or me. Otherwise, stop telling me what to think.

[fontaine]

Plummer is not very accurate as a rule....watch the game from last week and see how many WRs, or TEs were stretching to make a catch. I would guess that most of his picks from last year were because he threw a barely catchable ball. It was great to see Adams and Alexander stretch out and make catches on the two TD drives.

True, but I think Jake is capable of being accurate. Those two TD passes to Carwell were right on the money.

Does that make me a Jake Hugger or am I still perceived as a Jake Hater? Just checking I'd like to know where I stand !

:TJnPopps:

[Mediator12]

I enjoy a good backhanded jab at my expense as much as the next person, but I have never told you what to think.

Then explain this reference:

Originally Posted by AlecRaenos
I had to come back to this because it dawned on me, I dont know how Plummer cost us the season last year.

Denvers Defense (yeah, Mediator, thats right, the DEFENSE) cost us the season last year buddy.

How you can put that Indy loss on Jake Plummer is a god damn mystery to me. We never expected him to bring us back 35 ****ing points down in a half.

[Popps]

That is where you are telling me how to think. You act as if that is the Only acceptable opinon. Guess what? It is not no matter how much YOU think it is.

If you would like to make it personal, make a poll about who knows more about football. You or me. Otherwise, stop telling me what to think.


Hilarious!

Maybe you can pay yourself for some of your expert advice you charge other people for... and figure all of this out.

Yikes.

[fontaine]

Then explain this reference:

Originally Posted by AlecRaenos
I had to come back to this because it dawned on me, I dont know how Plummer cost us the season last year.

Denvers Defense (yeah, Mediator, thats right, the DEFENSE) cost us the season last year buddy.

How you can put that Indy loss on Jake Plummer is a god damn mystery to me. We never expected him to bring us back 35 ****ing points down in a half.

Godamnit Med!

Stop being a Jake Hugger Hater!
Ha!

[Popps]

True, but I think Jake is capable of being accurate. Those two TD passes to Carwell were right on the money.

Does that make me a Jake Hugger or am I still perceived as a Jake Hater? Just checking I'd like to know where I stand !

:TJnPopps:


You're a total Plummer homer!


!Booya!

[fontaine]

You're a total Plummer homer!


!Booya!

Good, I'd rather be that than a Jake Hugger!
:)

[Taco John]

And please, never attempt to tell me what I think I already have Alec and Popps here to do that.


Ha! :laugh: Ha! :laugh:

[Mediator12]

Hilarious!

Maybe you can pay yourself for some of your expert advice you charge other people for... and figure all of this out.

Yikes.

I already have popps.

[RhymesayersDU]

Not Plummer's fault that Lelie is an underachiever! He was going at half speed on most of those attempts.
This is the most moronic thing I've ever read on this board.

And that's counting mock's cat posts.

[Taco John]

I enjoy a good backhanded jab at my expense as much as the next person, but I have never told you what to think.



No way. I bet you didn't enjoy that as much as I did! Nyah!

[Rock Chalk]

Then explain this reference:

Originally Posted by AlecRaenos
I had to come back to this because it dawned on me, I dont know how Plummer cost us the season last year.

Denvers Defense (yeah, Mediator, thats right, the DEFENSE) cost us the season last year buddy.

How you can put that Indy loss on Jake Plummer is a god damn mystery to me. We never expected him to bring us back 35 ****ing points down in a half.
That sir, is me explaining to you MY opinion.

I did not say "Mediator, you must think it was the Defense's fault because I said so".

If your comprehension skills are that bad, perhaps a return to school is necessary.

[Taco John]

I see the media prescribes to the "say it and it's true" mode of thinking that is so popular around here.


followed by...

Actually, most CBs know that Lelie has no idea where he's supposed to be on any given play, so they're probably not that worried about covering him.



I feel like I'm trapped in an Alanis Morisette song.

[fontaine]

This is the most moronic thing I've ever read on this board.

And that's counting mock's cat posts.

That's true. I hope he washed his hands and wiped the keyboard after he typed that crap.

[Rock Chalk]

No way. I bet you didn't enjoy that as much as I did! Nyah!
Bah, I will throw a backhanded jab at myself from time to time. Sometimes I have to since most ofyou are incapable of logical thought or even coming up with a good one liner at my expense. I dont wanna be left out afterall.

[Mediator12]

That sir, is me explaining to you MY opinion.

I did not say "Mediator, you must think it was the Defense's fault because I said so".

If your comprehension skills are that bad, perhaps a return to school is necessary.

There are three assertions in that statement alec:

1. You do not understand my point of view:

How you can put that Indy loss on Jake Plummer is a god damn mystery to me. We never expected him to bring us back 35 ****ing points down in a half. I am also not a part of the WE in bold. since were down 7, then 14, then 21, then 28 before the offense had one credible drive in that game. So, the defense had a stop then the offense had 5 drives of 5 plays or less. The 35 points were not scored on one play.

2. This comment: I did not say "Mediator, you must think it was the Defense's fault because I said so".

Yes you did. You brought MY name into an argument of your own and severely distorted my whole point as Evidenced by point number one where you specifically refer to NOT understanding my point. You have also falsely stated my viewpoint on several occasions as I never said Jake was solely responsible for the loss. I said he and the offense contributed just as much "relative Blame" for the First half debacle.

3. You continue to question my intelligence with no basis other than I do not agree with you or believe your argument as you have presented it. Brilliant!

I also have been guilty of being a prick too with my inappropriate remarks in the past. For that, I am sorry. But it pisses me off to no end when people disrespect my opinion AND put Words in my mouth. In fact, my sense of fairness and equality has caused me to get too personal with you and popps. Now, would you please just stop distorting my opinion and argument? I would appreciate it.

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

Not Plummer's fault that Lelie is an underachiever! He was going at half speed on most of those attempts.


Come on BMF - As a Nebraska fan, I know you haven't seen many passing attacks ( :) Sorry couldn't help myself) Lelie may not be Harrison, but he runs good routes at the speed they are to be run. Not every route is designed to be a blaze down the sidelines.

[Mediator12]

First off, if I offended you, my apologies.

Second, I don't agree one bit. The perfect example is Lenny Walls, the guy gives up on plays constantly, hence why he gets burned, misses tackles, etc. all the time. I cannot remember what game it was last year but I recall an opposing reciever catching a ball on the sidelines and our cornerback (I believe it was Walls) practically giving up on the play, as if the reciever were going to go out of bounds. The play ended up in a TD. And you're telling me they don't give up on the play? Au contrere!

You obviously have not read my opinion of Mr. Walls performance to date. I have already stated that he has been the weakest link in an improved secondary and should find the pine and be dismissed after the season summarily.

[Taco John]

...and severely distorted my whole point...


Oh, you aint seen nothing yet... :woowoo:

/I've already been accused of believing that our offense needs to score 50 points per game to win...

[Popps]

followed by...





I feel like I'm trapped in an Alanis Morisette song.

First off, leave it to you to reference a song based on an utterly incorrect definition of a word. Perfect.

Second, my speculation as a fan (and that's just what it is) is based on watching the guy play since day one. This writer, who is being paid for accurate analysis is barfing out unbacked opinion and passing it off as fact.

Nice of you to go to bat for the sports media though, Taco. Never knew you were such a fan.

[Mediator12]

First off, leave it to you to reference a song based on an utterly incorrect definition of a word. Perfect.

Second, my speculation as a fan (and that's just what it is) is based on watching the guy play since day one. This writer, who is being paid for accurate analysis is barfing out unbacked opinion and passing it off as fact.

Nice of you to go to bat for the sports media though, Taco. Never knew you were such a fan.

Except the fact that the guy has ten Years of pro personnel experience and was a Player personnel director. I think he has watched more tape of Plummer than you have.

[Taco John]

First off, leave it to you to reference a song based on an utterly incorrect definition of a word. Perfect.

Haha! I figured you'd have a sense of humor about it. Guess not. Always looking to get that edge, even if it's by a joke at your expense not using the proper definition of the word "ironic."


Second, my speculation as a fan (and that's just what it is) is based on watching the guy play since day one. This writer, who is being paid for accurate analysis is barfing out unbacked opinion and passing it off as fact.

Nice of you to go to bat for the sports media though, Taco. Never knew you were such a fan.


Go to bat for the sports media? You are a very skilled propagandist. In fact, you are the best I've ever met. You have the uncanny ability to make people believe some of the most insane bull**** I've ever read. You do it artfully, with properly timed insults, and skillfully distorted points.

I wasn't going to bat for the media at all. I was going to bat for Lelie. You forgot one thing. My speculation as a fan is also based on watching the guy play since day one.

You can't even see that Plummer is being reigned in on a short leash. Why should anyone expect that you could give an accurate analysis of Lelie's ability?

[DomCasual]

This is the most moronic thing I've ever read on this board.

And that's counting mock's cat posts.
Come on now! Let's not get carried away. I think I have read some things more moronic than this - today. Heck, I have probably SAID more moronic things than this.

If we are grading it on a curve - well, we can pretty well start with "A monkey could sit in front of a keyboard, randomly hitting keys, and do better than that," and go from there. For the most moronic thing we've ever read on this board, the bar is set pretty high (low?).

[BMF Bronco]

This is the most moronic thing I've ever read on this board.

And that's counting mock's cat posts.

Now go ahead and back it up...

[Rock Chalk]

There are three assertions in that statement alec:

1. You do not understand my point of view:

How you can put that Indy loss on Jake Plummer is a god damn mystery to me. We never expected him to bring us back 35 ****ing points down in a half. I am also not a part of the WE in bold. since were down 7, then 14, then 21, then 28 before the offense had one credible drive in that game. So, the defense had a stop then the offense had 5 drives of 5 plays or less. The 35 points were not scored on one play.

2. This comment: I did not say "Mediator, you must think it was the Defense's fault because I said so".

Yes you did. You brought MY name into an argument of your own and severely distorted my whole point as Evidenced by point number one where you specifically refer to NOT understanding my point. You have also falsely stated my viewpoint on several occasions as I never said Jake was solely responsible for the loss. I said he and the offense contributed just as much "relative Blame" for the First half debacle.

3. You continue to question my intelligence with no basis other than I do not agree with you or believe your argument as you have presented it. Brilliant!

I also have been guilty of being a prick too with my inappropriate remarks in the past. For that, I am sorry. But it pisses me off to no end when people disrespect my opinion AND put Words in my mouth. In fact, my sense of fairness and equality has caused me to get too personal with you and popps. Now, would you please just stop distorting my opinion and argument? I would appreciate it.
We was in general and was not meant to include you IF you expected more from Jake than what we have gotten so far. His good games outweigh his bad games, by far, IMO and I think we have done well with Jake. I think that Jake could not match Payton in Indy TD for TD, and that no matter how well Jake played, we lose that game last year.

I think the defense, mostly due to injury depletion and lack of talented depth, was the cause for Indy running roughshod over us and taking away the most important part of our gameplan - the run - when we got off to a slow start. We had to go all pass and Indy knew it, like we knew KC had to do two weekends ago.

If the offense gets off to a slow start, it is imperitive that the defense come out firing. Conversely, if the offense comes out hot, the defense doesn't have to be super spectacular to make up for it.

The offense and defense failed each other. Sure, Jake could have made the game more competitive, but he could not have won it without more defensive help than they showed in that game. We lost last year because Indy was a better team, period. It was as much as the lack of execution by the entire squad as it was about Indy's total and complete execution of their gameplan to perfection.

And you have tried to pin it on the offense, and you have made MANY snide comments about Jake which most - not all - IMO were neither justified nor called for. I called you on it, perhaps misquoting OR exaggerating, but the general context the same.

You are free to disagree, and I am sure you will.

[BMF Bronco]

We was in general and was not meant to include you IF you expected more from Jake than what we have gotten so far. His good games outweigh his bad games, by far, IMO and I think we have done well with Jake. I think that Jake could not match Payton in Indy TD for TD, and that no matter how well Jake played, we lose that game last year.

I think the defense, mostly due to injury depletion and lack of talented depth, was the cause for Indy running roughshod over us and taking away the most important part of our gameplan - the run - when we got off to a slow start. We had to go all pass and Indy knew it, like we knew KC had to do two weekends ago.

If the offense gets off to a slow start, it is imperitive that the defense come out firing. Conversely, if the offense comes out hot, the defense doesn't have to be super spectacular to make up for it.

The offense and defense failed each other. Sure, Jake could have made the game more competitive, but he could not have won it without more defensive help than they showed in that game. We lost last year because Indy was a better team, period. It was as much as the lack of execution by the entire squad as it was about Indy's total and complete execution of their gameplan to perfection.

And you have tried to pin it on the offense, and you have made MANY snide comments about Jake which most - not all - IMO were neither justified nor called for. I called you on it, perhaps misquoting OR exaggerating, but the general context the same.

You are free to disagree, and I am sure you will.
Not to mention, we were just plain outclassed. I am still under the assumption that the only way we could have won that game was if Elway secretly donned Plummer's jersey and we had TD in the backfield. Lest we forget that we barely made it into the playoffs due to a gift from the Colts just the week prior.

[Popps]

Except the fact that the guy has ten Years of pro personnel experience and was a Player personnel director. I think he has watched more tape of Plummer than you have.

Yea, well... you seem to think the defense was just fine the last couple of seasons, and yet the staff went out and made massive efforts to improve it.

So, you're smarter than the staff, but I can't possibly have a better take than some writer who is laying out information that has been proven false?

:kiddingme

[Popps]

Haha! I figured you'd have a sense of humor about it. Guess not.

It was mildly funny, I'll give you that.

You are a very skilled propagandist. In fact, you are the best I've ever met. You have the uncanny ability.....

Why don't you just say I'm skilled, and leave it at that. Save yourself all that writing. :)



I wasn't going to bat for the media at all. I was going to bat for Lelie. You forgot one thing. My speculation as a fan is also based on watching the guy play since day one.

You can't even see that Plummer is being reigned in on a short leash. Why should anyone expect that you could give an accurate analysis of Lelie's ability?

I dunno.

Actually, there's no reason they should believe me... they should be able to see with their own eyes. Lelie simply isn't a productive receiver. He had marginal stats last year, but 4 games in... seems to be a real non-factor.
Do you think it's any coincidence that Jake is using a "higher percentage" passing game..... and throwing to Lelie less often? What might that tell you?

[Popps]

IMO and I think we have done well with Jake. I think that Jake could not match Payton in Indy TD for TD, and that no matter how well Jake played, we lose that game last year.

Add 49 points, and it's just mind-boggling that people don't understand this.

Mas rep.

[Merlin]

These exchanges are the embodiment of the expression "the truth is in the middle". It appears quite obvious that Taco and Mediator are not arguing that the defense played well in last year's playoff, but they feel that it might have helped the defense a little if the offense had any semblance of efficiency. Also Alec and Popps are clearly stating that, yes JP played poorly, but in the end that was not the root cause of the defeat.

In order to differentiate from each other's points of view it would seem sometimes extreme comments are made about the other's stance to justify a stance that is not clearly being stipulated; i.e. it is the O's fault they lost, conversely, it is the D's fault they lost.

As for myself, I do think they both stank, but I felt the stench from the D was more critical to address. Not only was there a very good foundation from which to build on the D (some of its stats against teams not called Indy were very impressive), but improvements in 1 or 2 areas could transform this team into a potential SB team. However, changes in the O would have to be dramatic to have the same effect (i.e. you would need an overpowering O, to compensate for the D line deficiencies in the playoffs).

[Rock Chalk]

These exchanges are the embodiment of the expression "the truth is in the middle". It appears quite obvious that Taco and Mediator are not arguing that the defense played well in last year's playoff, but they feel that it might have helped the defense a little if the offense had any semblance of efficiency. Also Alec and Popps are clearly stating that, yes JP played poorly, but in the end that was not the root cause of the defeat.

In order to differentiate from each other's points of view it would seem sometimes extreme comments are made about the other's stance to justify a stance that is not clearly being stipulated; i.e. it is the O's fault they lost, conversely, it is the D's fault they lost.

As for myself, I do think they both stank, but I felt the stench from the D was more critical to address. Not only was there a very good foundation from which to build on the D (some of its stats against teams not called Indy were very impressive), but improvements in 1 or 2 areas could transform this team into a potential SB team. However, changes in the O would have to be dramatic to have the same effect (i.e. you would need an overpowering O, to compensate for the D line deficiencies in the playoffs).
Me, make extreme comments? :nono: ;D

[Hulamau]

Not Plummer's fault that Lelie is an underachiever! He was going at half speed on most of those attempts.

What horse ****! Lelie was going half speed thats why Plummer under threw him when he was open crossing the KC goal line. I guess all these defenders Lelie beat on each of those plays were going half speed too, Einstein!

[Hulamau]

This week they ought to hook Plummer and Lelie up for a bomb on the first play of the game after a perfect fake run. Last thing Washington woiuld be looking for from the past 4 weeks of film

[BMF Bronco]

What horse ****! Lelie was going half speed thats why Plummer under threw him when he was open crossing the KC goal line. I guess all these defenders Lelie beat on each of those plays were going half speed too, Einstein!
Jeezus, here we go again... :stupid:

[elsid13]

This thread is turned some much more entraining, then I ever thought it would become. Half the board think it Lelie’s fault for running half speed and not making plays versus those think Plummer can not hit the deep ball. In reality it all Shanahan and rest of the staff for not calling enough deep passes. Relex people it 5 weeks into the season and we are winning. Stop running around like a bunch of little girls. Sorry in advance to the women of the mane.

[BMF Bronco]

This thread is turned some much more entraining, then I ever thought it would become. Half the board think it Lelie’s fault for running half speed and not making plays versus those think Plummer can not hit the deep ball. In reality it all Shanahan and rest of the staff for not calling enough deep passes. Relex people it 5 weeks into the season and we are winning. Stop running around like a bunch of little girls. Sorry in advance to the women of the mane.

I am digging the winning, I just cannot stand the fact that some like to blame JP for everything up to and including the assassination of JFK.

[elsid13]

I am digging the winning, I just cannot stand the fact that some like to blame JP for everything up to and including the assassination of JFK.

Plummer was second gunman, huh. Always thought is was Greiseball fault.

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

This thread is turned some much more entraining, then I ever thought it would become. Half the board think it Lelie’s fault for running half speed and not making plays versus those think Plummer can not hit the deep ball. In reality it all Shanahan and rest of the staff for not calling enough deep passes. Relex people it 5 weeks into the season and we are winning. Stop running around like a bunch of little girls. Sorry in advance to the women of the mane.

Agree - It is all in the game plan. The plan the last three weeks has been to minimize the long pass and run the ball and hit the short routes. When they hit a team that the coaches think is vulnerable to the long ball, they will go long and often to Lelie. Shanahan said on the radio this morning that Lelie"s perceived lack of production was due to the gameplan and that Lelie was doing everything he was asked to do in that context.

[Meck77]

In reality it all Shanahan and rest of the staff for not calling enough deep passes. Relex people it 5 weeks into the season and we are winning. Stop running around like a bunch of little girls. Sorry in advance to the women of the mane.

Huh? You mean those deep passes that are virtually hail marrys that either Lelie catches and falls to the ground in a desperation catch or he gets a pass interference call?

No thanks. Give me a 9 minute drive with an offense that can execute those plays. Jakes bombs to Lelie are nothing more than a prayer. Sure we could call more and improve on the odds or focus on winning games instead.

Jake's long ball is not accurate. See just about any Bronco game from 1983-1998 if you need a reference. We can win games without the hail marry passes to Lelie. Over time that phase of the game will develop as our running game does and Lelie will be so freakin wide open that a guy like Watermock could hit Lelie down the sidelines.

[Atlas]

Good point J. Had Shanny passed a lot in the 2nd halfs and Jake made some mistakes there would be several of us all over him! Smart game plan and it's Shanny at his best. Get a lead and then pound them into submission.


That's a good post. Another element is that the Defense has been playing great. So once Denver get's the lead the offense can run the ball knowing the D will make the lead hold up as long as they don't turn the ball over.

[elsid13]

Huh? You mean those deep passes that are virtually hail marrys that either Lelie catches and falls to the ground in a desperation catch or he gets a pass interference call?

No thanks. Give me a 9 minute drive with an offense that can execute those plays. Jakes bombs to Lelie are nothing more than a prayer. Sure we could call more and improve on the odds or focus on winning games instead.

Jake's long ball is not accurate. See just about any Bronco game from 1983-1998 if you need a reference. We can win games without the hail marry passes to Lelie. Over time that phase of the game will develop as our running game does and Lelie will be so freakin wide open that a guy like Watermock could hit Lelie down the sidelines.

I agree with that game plan, but the even if the those pass are incomplete that forces the safety to play back which help those long 9+ minute drives work. It all part of the system, each small part need to the right thing for us to move the ball. And right Lelie part of the process is to force the deep coverage.

[BMF Bronco]

That's a good post. Another element is that the Defense has been playing great. So once Denver get's the lead the offense can run the ball knowing the D will make the lead hold up as long as they don't turn the ball over.
Have I mentioned your avatar fuggin rocks?!

[Hulamau]

This thread is turned some much more entraining, then I ever thought it would become. Half the board think it Lelie’s fault for running half speed and not making plays versus those think Plummer can not hit the deep ball. In reality it all Shanahan and rest of the staff for not calling enough deep passes. Relex people it 5 weeks into the season and we are winning. Stop running around like a bunch of little girls. Sorry in advance to the women of the mane.

Agreed, Plummer can hit the deep ball and Lelie can catch them when they work on it as they did last year. They simply havent gotten it together this year yet and as is plainly evident Lelie's numbers are down, for the most part, by design. We've been winnning with the dink and dunk and run game. But its ludicrous to blame it on Ash for supposedly "running half speed".

Plummer is doing his job fine the last few weeks, and Lelie is doing his part as well running flys, blocking and running reverse.

I suspect they have been working on ways to get Lelie more involved in the short game now that this formula is workiing so well.

[BMF Bronco]

Agreed, Plummer can hit the deep ball and Lelie can catch them when they work on it as they did last year. They simply havent gotten it together this year yet and as is plainly evident Lelie's numbers are down for teh most part by design. We;'ve bee nwinnning wit hteh dink and dunk and run game. But its ludicrous to blame it on Ash for supposedly "running half speed".

Plummer is doing his job fine the last few weeks, and Lelie is doing his part as well running flys, blocking and running reverse.

I suspect they ahve been working on ways to get Lelie more involved in the short game now that this formula is workign so well.

Okay, now that we all agree, can I get a collective GO BRONCOS?! :Broncos: :Broncos: :Broncos:

[elsid13]

Okay, now that we all agree, can I get a collective GO BRONCOS?! :Broncos: :Broncos: :Broncos:


You have my permission. ;D

[Popps]

Huh? You mean those deep passes that are virtually hail marrys that either Lelie catches and falls to the ground in a desperation catch or he gets a pass interference call?

No thanks. Give me a 9 minute drive with an offense that can execute those plays. Jakes bombs to Lelie are nothing more than a prayer. Sure we could call more and improve on the odds or focus on winning games instead.

Jake's long ball is not accurate. See just about any Bronco game from 1983-1998 if you need a reference. We can win games without the hail marry passes to Lelie. Over time that phase of the game will develop as our running game does and Lelie will be so freakin wide open that a guy like Watermock could hit Lelie down the sidelines.

Great post.

Jake has a decent arm, but he's not Montana. Why risk chucking balls up for grabs because we drafted some one-dimensional "speed" receiver?

[listopencil]

I feel like I'm trapped in an Alanis Morisette song.

I can run but I can't cut
I'm tall and I'm really fast

I came from Hawaii
And I'm just a little too laid back


My hands are like coconuts
but I don't see the ball, so who cares

I could be a Pro-Bowler
Or another bust going nowhere


I've got one hand in my pocket
...and the other hand flailing at an overthrown pa-aa-aass.

That's what it's about my fans
...one day I'm gonna score a Touch Down, yeah.

[Taco John]

Do you think it's any coincidence that Jake is using a "higher percentage" passing game..... and throwing to Lelie less often? What might that tell you?


As far as the Jake/Lelie connection is concerned, I'll take Shanahan's word for it when he says that Lelie is doing everything asked of him.

[Popps]

As far as the Jake/Lelie connection is concerned, I'll take Shanahan's word for it when he says that Lelie is doing everything asked of him.


Hmmm..... guess he's just got him on a short leash.

Hilarious!

[The Big E]

Jake and Lelie have hooked up many times the last few years, and it will happen again soon. For all of the talk about the misses deep, it's a whopping total of 4, maybe 5 passes. It'll come.

[Merlin]

Jake has a decent arm, but he's not Montana.
I assume you mean from an accuracy perspective, because Montana did not exactly have a riffle for an arm.