Lelie a bust....

[Ray Finkle]

I guess he never paid atention to last season....

blue (nashville, tn): Should I drop Lelie?

SportsNation Scott Engel: Yes - he is overrated, and at this point of his career, it is clear he is a bust.

[Florida_Bronco]

He sure hasn't done alot this season...but he's nowhere near a bust.

[Ray Finkle]

teams are covering the deep ball better and Jake has been off with another couple throws....

[Taco John]

He's a fantasy bust, but based on how much our running game has been opened up, I'd say he's getting respect downfield.

[bronco militia]

lol...right now, Tatum Bell is more of a bust - in fantasy football

[dbfan4life]

Ahhhh......Fantasy Football. If it only translated to reality on the football field.

[OrangeShadow]

Jakes just not taking as many chances as before which im prefectly fine with

[bendog]

bench him but hold. Seriously, defenses were starting 8 up, and then the wC horozontal is making them back out. They'll have to cheat up the safties sooner or later to deal with the underneath stuff. Lelie is running the corners off to open up the short stuff. Once the safties cheat up, the opportunity will be there.

[Odysseus]

From a fantasty standpoint I wouldn't pick up any Denver offensive player. I would be all over the Denver Defense.

I refuse to play in a league where you cannot pick individual defensive players anymore.

I miss fantasy football. I guess retiring with two championships allows me to lie about what a FF stud I USED to be. ROFL!

[NaptownChief]

Marcus Nash is the epitome of a bust. Lelie isn't a bust, disappointment to some degree but not a bust.

[Dagmar]

On a positive not Adams looks GOOD...

[bronco militia]

I refuse to play in a league where you cannot pick individual defensive players anymore.

!

damn, that's the way I like to play but it is so hard to get people to even try to play with D players...it makes the draft a lot more intersting plus adding more draftible players means larger leagues.

[Popps]

Lelie has been dumped two times in our league, which is interesting because there ARE a few Bronco fans. But, no one is going to touch a guy putting up 1 pt a week.

"Bust" is a strong word, but he's a disappointment. I think Bronco fans are just going to have to have realistic (lower) expectations. I'll just be happy if he can contribute in some way... even if it's just stretching the defense. Maybe we'll use one of our high picks on a WR next year.

[DomCasual]

I guess he never paid atention to last season....

blue (nashville, tn): Should I drop Lelie?

SportsNation Scott Engel: Yes - he is overrated, and at this point of his career, it is clear he is a bust.

I'd dump him right now and pick up Dwayne Carswell.

If I had one wish before I died, it would be that I could come back as an NFL or Fantasy Football expert.

[DomCasual]

From a fantasty standpoint I wouldn't pick up any Denver offensive player. I would be all over the Denver Defense.

I refuse to play in a league where you cannot pick individual defensive players anymore.

I miss fantasy football. I guess retiring with two championships allows me to lie about what a FF stud I USED to be. ROFL!
I want to see proof of this - trophies, earnings checks, something!

Personally, I think you made this two championships story up to impress women.

There, I said it!

[yavoon]

Ahhhh......Fantasy Football. If it only translated to reality on the football field.

its not all that far off often enough. sure there are outliers all the time. but this fantasy slump of lelie's IMO is slump of his overall impact on the game.

[Vegas_Bronco]

I guess he never paid atention to last season....

blue (nashville, tn): Should I drop Lelie?

SportsNation Scott Engel: Yes - he is overrated, and at this point of his career, it is clear he is a bust.


You forgot the rest of the quote:

SportsNation Scott Engel: And - Pick up Dwayne Carswell in place of Lelie, he is on pace to be another pro bowl TE, it is clear he is a bus. Mike Anderson is a bust, Jake Plummer is a bust on all odd weeks, and Rod Smith is an undrafted WR - bust, bust, bust.

[Crushaholic]

Lelie can only be considered a "bust" in fantasy football circles. Corners respect his homerun threat ability so much that they cover him. That leaves the middle up to the safeties to protect and often creates one-on-one matchups.

[yavoon]

Lelie can only be considered a "bust" in fantasy football circles. Corners respect his homerun threat ability so much that they cover him. That leaves the middle up to the safeties to protect and often creates one-on-one matchups.

and if they didnt respect him they wouldn't cover him? I don't buy ur interpretation at all. I think its more like last year ppl didnt weight their coverage of lelie to deep routes as much. now they know he is a significant threat there they are treading more carefully. this adaptation has caused a reduction in production, hopefully it will pickup some. but lets face it lelie isnt drawing constant doubles, he is not an elite wr. there is no more personnel emphasis on covering him then on covering david givens or kevin curtis or tim dwight.

[bloodsunday]

"Bust" is a strong word, but he's a disappointment. I think Bronco fans are just going to have to have realistic (lower) expectations. I'll just be happy if he can contribute in some way... even if it's just stretching the defense. Maybe we'll use one of our high picks on a WR next year.
I don't know what to think. Lelie had a good year last year. I think he has a role and plays it pretty well. He's not the typical WCO smooth-route, possession WR, but that doesn't make him a bust. I bet Lelie would flourish in a different system (like the Rams or Vikings) or with a better QB (like Brady).

He has the tools to do some things that our offense doesn't allow him. For example, he could probably take a slant route to the house if Jake could hit him in stride. Instead, all our WR have to stop and reach behind them to catch balls and typically take unncessary hits. I'm not doggin' Jake as much as saying the truth. This team is not as pass-oriented as it once was or as it could be with a franchise QB. That makes the expectations that we have for Lelie tough to evaluate fairly.

Our OL is not a pro-typical 5-step drop kind of OL either. We are most effective at play-action and role outs. Again, its tough to evaluate a 2-WR offense when you are really utilizing a fraction of your playbook and the field. This year we are getting our tightends involved a lot more again as well. We are playing tough defenses, which means that our roleouts are less effective and those big plays that Lelie got on busted plays last year get diminished.

Lelie's numbers are a function of how he's utilized in this offense and the talent of the players around him, IMO. I don't think he's the next Jerry Rice, but he is no slouch either. Hell, I think Adams has the goods, but its the same story. This is a one WR offense right now.

[yavoon]

I don't know what to think. Lelie had a good year last year. I think he has a role and plays it pretty well. He's not the typical WCO smooth-route, possession WR, but that doesn't make him a bust. I bet Lelie would flourish in a different system (like the Rams or Vikings) or with a better QB (like Brady).

He has the tools to do some things that our offense doesn't allow him. For example, he could probably take a slant route to the house if Jake could hit him in stride. Instead, all our WR have to stop and reach behind them to catch balls and typically take unncessary hits. I'm not doggin' Jake as much as saying the truth. This team is not as pass-oriented as it once was or as it could be with a franchise QB. That makes the expectations that we have for Lelie tough to evaluate fairly.

Our OL is not a pro-typical 5-step drop kind of OL either. We are most effective at play-action and role outs. Again, its tough to evaluate a 2-WR offense when you are really utilizing a fraction of your playbook and the field.

I will agree, with a better qb and a more vertical system, especially the rams. lelie might be more dangerous and productive.

[bloodsunday]

I will agree, with a better qb and a more vertical system, especially the rams. lelie might be more dangerous and productive.
It's not just Lelie though. We haven't exactly had the best of luck with our #3 WR either. This offense is just designed around one WR and the TEs. Last year Lelie had a good year because we went more vertical without Sharpe. Hell, if Jake throws for 4,000 yards again this season then Lelie will probably have another 1,000 yd season. This could be a function of scheme and limiting the reads that Jake has to make as well. Mediator or SoCal (anyone that watches game film) might be able to back me up, but I suspect that the majority of our routes have one WR as the primary target and then a TE/RB check down.

[Popps]

For example, he could probably take a slant route to the house if Jake could hit him in stride.

Jake doesn't have Troy Aikman-like accuracy, but I'll guarantee you he can hit a WR in stride on a deep ball. I've said it before... Griese couldn't develop any chemistry with Lelie, either. (Given, he was early in his career) Now, Plummer seems to be on the same page with every receiver except Lelie.
I just think the guy runs poor routes and has questionable instincts. He got by in college because he was faster than everyone else. Well guess what? That doesn't cut it in the pros.

As time goes on, and Jake develops more chemistry with the other receivers, this stuff will continue to become more evident. Lelie is just not a great receiver. He's fast, and he's got decent hands when he can manage to be where he's supposed to be. I'll take Adams/Watts any day, and I wish we'd give either of them a chance to runs some posts/go-routes.

[Crushaholic]

and if they didnt respect him they wouldn't cover him? I don't buy ur interpretation at all. I think its more like last year ppl didnt weight their coverage of lelie to deep routes as much. now they know he is a significant threat there they are treading more carefully. this adaptation has caused a reduction in production, hopefully it will pickup some. but lets face it lelie isnt drawing constant doubles, he is not an elite wr. there is no more personnel emphasis on covering him then on covering david givens or kevin curtis or tim dwight.

You answered your own question. Opposing teams are taking into account the "Lelie factor". They are now gameplanning to stop him. That means they respect him. Otherwise, they would leave him out there uncovered and worry about stopping other people. I've seen it so many times where receivers are wide open downfield and the quarterback just doesn't see them. Lelie continually being covered downfield is a sign of respect.

[DarkHorse30]

teams are covering the deep ball better and Jake has been off with another couple throws....

You might recognize that Denver has expanded it's playbook to include a flurry of short outs and screens....which does more to defeat a good passrush than waiting for Lelie to get open deep. You might also recognize that Denver will have faced 4 top 10 defenses in the first 5 weeks......which may also limit the strengths of the long-bomb threat. AND, you might recognize that 4 of the first 5 defenses Denver will face ALL have pretty good pass defense. Facing a good defense is a lot more than chucking it to Lelie anytime you can....there are WAY too many risks with that approach. Much better to have Plummer take care of the ball and engineer long clock-eating drives...which is what Denver has always been good at. I'm sure Jake would rather take 16-25 150yd 2TD day over a 30-54 345yd 2TD 2int day EVERY time.

It's hilarious to see the "we hate Lelie now" crowd stumble to the front of the orangemane when there is little else to complain about. The fact is, Lelie is more of a deep threat than a possesion WR. Denver has been spreading the ball around pretty well....including some key tosses to a pretty good TE group, except for that first game. Why not celebrate Adams pushing Watts for that #3 spot in some very tough matchups? As has been mentioned before, Denver's offense is growing to the point where it can really test an average defense. I'm sorry you took Lelie on your fantasy squad, but the schedule probably should have clued you in about not playing him against really good defenses....that really goes for any WR, except maybe Terrell Owens.

[Orange_Beard]

Marcus Nash was a bust.
Lelie is just average.

[yavoon]

You answered your own question. Opposing teams are taking into account the "Lelie factor". They are now gameplanning to stop him. That means they respect him. Otherwise, they would leave him out there uncovered and worry about stopping other people. I've seen it so many times where receivers are wide open downfield and the quarterback just doesn't see them. Lelie continually being covered downfield is a sign of respect.


see I think when u say gameplanning ur implying that their entire scheme is warping because of lelie. and btw, NO1 LEAVES ANYONE UN ****ING COVERED, wtf kind of notion is that? if u think ppl are constantly left uncovered then u r interpreting the play incorrectly because that is just retarded.

what I mean by adjusting to lelie is that the individual corners assigned to lelie are adapated, they know he wants to go deep. not that the defense is doing anything w/ its scheme to compensate for lelie.

[Mediator12]

They are also Jamming Lelie more than ever at the LOS. I mean mugging him. He still has not developed a worthwhile tecnique to get off the LOS consistently. Some of the deep throws are off because of this, per popps quote, and some are just off.

The worst part of this is that he can never execute any double moves, comebacks, or deep outs since the CB's are screwing the timing up. I will say this however, his blocking is MUCH improved as well as Watts. The WR's as a group are Blocking a dirtload better than last year and the running game has greatly benefitted the last two weeks ecause of it.

[anthonypacino]

They are also Jamming Lelie more than ever at the LOS. I mean mugging him. He still has not developed a worthwhile tecnique to get off the LOS consistently. Some of the deep throws are off because of this, per popps quote, and some are just off.

The worst part of this is that he can never execute any double moves, comebacks, or deep outs since the CB's are screwing the timing up. I will say this however, his blocking is MUCH improved as well as Watts. The WR's as a group are Blocking a dirtload better than last year and the running game has greatly benefitted the last two weeks ecause of it.
now if someone will just teach Tatum Bell how to block in pass protection he might be able to edge out Mike Anderson next year.

[Ray Finkle]

You might recognize that Denver has expanded it's playbook to include a flurry of short outs and screens....which does more to defeat a good passrush than waiting for Lelie to get open deep. You might also recognize that Denver will have faced 4 top 10 defenses in the first 5 weeks......which may also limit the strengths of the long-bomb threat. AND, you might recognize that 4 of the first 5 defenses Denver will face ALL have pretty good pass defense. Facing a good defense is a lot more than chucking it to Lelie anytime you can....there are WAY too many risks with that approach. Much better to have Plummer take care of the ball and engineer long clock-eating drives...which is what Denver has always been good at. I'm sure Jake would rather take 16-25 150yd 2TD day over a 30-54 345yd 2TD 2int day EVERY time.

It's hilarious to see the "we hate Lelie now" crowd stumble to the front of the orangemane when there is little else to complain about. The fact is, Lelie is more of a deep threat than a possesion WR. Denver has been spreading the ball around pretty well....including some key tosses to a pretty good TE group, except for that first game. Why not celebrate Adams pushing Watts for that #3 spot in some very tough matchups? As has been mentioned before, Denver's offense is growing to the point where it can really test an average defense. I'm sorry you took Lelie on your fantasy squad, but the schedule probably should have clued you in about not playing him against really good defenses....that really goes for any WR, except maybe Terrell Owens.



I think you took my posts as hating Lelie....He is one of my favorite players...I agree with your analysis.

[Orange4Life]

I don't think I would label Lelie a bust. He has been disappointing this year but no one on our offense is really lighting it up. And to make it even worse we have been throwing the ball less than we ever have. Everyone on is contributing to the wins though. Rod catches a few balls, Lelie catches some balls and has had some nice runs, Adams catches some balls, and Watts catches some balls. Mike, Ronnie, and Tater are all running well. i think there is alot of balance on offense right now and great games by a single player are going to hard to come by.

[elsid13]

IF he was bust, do you think Shanahan would be playing him ??? Relex it 4 games into the season. Has he missed some plays yes, but let the offense get into gear before we call anyone a bust. Darn Rod only has 10 catches is he getting old???

[jbiel]

I don't even think Lelie is playing that bad this year. Against Miami, he cut off a route short and dropped a ball in the endzone, but in all the other games he has beaten his man deep at least once and Jake just hasn't gotten it to him yet. They will get it going. Remember last year, Lelie only caught about one deep ball per game. It wasn't like he was consistently catching 6-7 balls a week. His game is the deep route, and once Plummer starts hitting him, you will all think he's fine.

He is a gamble when you're talking fantasy though...

[Ballhawk]

Match Lelie up with the right QB and he is a probowler, but nothing more than a decoy here.

[DBroncos4life]

He is a fantasy buts but Heath Miller is a bigger bust!!!!! 2 catches for 16 yards in three games. That man has ROY writen all over him.

[ozomulsion]

IF he was bust, do you think Shanahan would be playing him ??? Relex it 4 games into the season. Has he missed some plays yes, but let the offense get into gear before we call anyone a bust. Darn Rod only has 10 catches is he getting old???

Sorry, Rod Smith has 22 catches for 286 yards and 1 TD this year. Yavoon, your insight is needed on the the Isnt it Ironic? "Cleveland's D-Line is Struggling" thread. It would be nice for our resident Browns fan to chim in.

[bloodsunday]

As time goes on, and Jake develops more chemistry with the other receivers, this stuff will continue to become more evident. Lelie is just not a great receiver. He's fast, and he's got decent hands when he can manage to be where he's supposed to be. I'll take Adams/Watts any day, and I wish we'd give either of them a chance to runs some posts/go-routes.
I hear ya, but I think we'll have to open the offense up in order to see another WR emerge. I am not sure we have the personnel to do that and I am not sure we can win that way. We are much better off (right now) running 600 times and keeping Jake to about 15 - 20 attempts per game. It'll be very tough to see another two-1,000 yard WR season, not to mention a #3 WR. I really think that our inability to develop a consistent #3 is at least in part a function of our offensive philosophy and the limitations of Jake. Even when Denver comes out in "open" sets with 3 and 4 WRs to set up the run, they throw everything short, get the tightends and RBs involved.

I fear the only way that we'll see another WR develop is Rod getting injured.

[DarkHorse]

I'm starting to believe that Lelie just doesn't fit this system that we run. At all. Not even close. We RARELY throw the ball downfield anymore - the very scant times that we do - someone like Charlie Adams could run those routes. They are few and far between - so few and far between that we don't need a deep ball specialist like Lelie.

Now, take Lelie and put him in Atlanta - OUCH - the entire league would take notice. That would be a friggin show.

Philly - Indy - NE - Minnesota

Jeeeezus

[Meck77]

I'd much rather see our offense have 9 minute drives like we did last week then "Hail Marry" passes to Lelie. Let's face it that's what most of them have been in the past. They are prayers sent out in hopes of a catch or a pass interference call. It's very clear that Shanny is done air mailing prayers to him also. We are becoming the old Baltimore Raven team. Defense winning games, offense based on the running game with a passing offense doing just enough to get first downs when we need them but not giving it a chance to lose the game for us with mistakes. I'm loving it and new talent is emerging week after week right now.

BTW....where the heck has been Devoe been? Haven't seen or heard his named mentioned since Pre-season.

[Mile High Shack]

I'd much rather see our offense have 9 minute drives like we did last week then "Hail Marry" passes to Lelie. Let's face it that's what most of them have been in the past. They are prayers sent out in hopes of a catch or a pass interference call.

BTW....where the heck has been Devoe been? Haven't seen or heard his named mentioned since Pre-season.

I saw Devoe (whip it good) on special teams on sunday

as far as Lelie not fitting our offense, you are correct, we need bigger physical receivers who are fast, but not skinny speed burners

for example.....Moss would not be a good fit in our offense but T.O. would

[skinz4lyfe]

Lelie a bust? I don't think so either. I really like him. I liked him so much I drafted him onto my FFball team. But good thing he's my 3rd receiver when I only need to start 2 because he hasn't put up good numbers this year to date. But I do think he's a very good receiver.

[BroncoBuff]

He's a fantasy bust, but based on how much our running game has been opened up, I'd say he's getting respect downfield.
Yeah - keep that Fantasy stuff on the Fantasy board, please?

Ashley will get his. Remember - he was #1 in ypc last year in NFL. Some said it was because he was useless over the middle, but the word was he toughened up in the off-season. Shanny was asked about that Monday, and he basically said, "Ashley will get his."

Remember, Rod has TONS of catches - like top 5 in the legue in number. Maybe they're doubling Lelie.

Part of the problem, too, is - Plummer hasn't had a breakout passing game yet this year. Maybe it will all come this week.

[Mediator12]

I'd much rather see our offense have 9 minute drives like we did last week then "Hail Marry" passes to Lelie. Let's face it that's what most of them have been in the past. They are prayers sent out in hopes of a catch or a pass interference call. It's very clear that Shanny is done air mailing prayers to him also. We are becoming the old Baltimore Raven team. Defense winning games, offense based on the running game with a passing offense doing just enough to get first downs when we need them but not giving it a chance to lose the game for us with mistakes. I'm loving it and new talent is emerging week after week right now.

BTW....where the heck has been Devoe been? Haven't seen or heard his named mentioned since Pre-season.

Devoe was out two games with a. you guessed it, hamstring injury. I think the team needs to implement a better overall stretching plan since 65% of our injuries this year have been HAMSTRINGS. I mean we do pay somebody to do this, maybe they ought to be changed? Seriously, when over half the injuries are soft tissue and not physical in nature something needs to give. An acceptable rate of soft tissue is 25 % for comparison.

[Mediator12]

The guy I would love to draft in the future is from Notre dame:

83 Samardzija, Jeff Wide Receiver 6-5/216 JR Valparaiso, IN/Valparaiso

Anyone else see him play this year. He has unbelievable hands and Blocks like a Sherman tank. The 4.4 speed does not hurt either!

[Meck77]

Devoe was out two games with a. you guessed it, hamstring injury. I think the team needs to implement a better overall stretching plan since 65% of our injuries this year have been HAMSTRINGS. I mean we do pay somebody to do this, maybe they ought to be changed? Seriously, when over half the injuries are soft tissue and not physical in nature something needs to give. An acceptable rate of soft tissue is 25 % for comparison.

Interesting point Med now that you mention it. My theory is if you do what you've always done you get what you've always gotten. There is obviously a pattern going on here. Sounds like it needs to be addressed.

[BroncoBuff]

You might recognize that Denver has expanded it's playbook to include a flurry of short outs and screens....
Short outs? Yeah.
Screens? No way!

I am constantly yelling at them to run a screen! They very rarely do.

[Meck77]

I hear you. I'm not sure plummer has the touch for that to be honest. He was having trouble with it in camp and missed Putz or Alexander on one pretty badly in the Jag game. Jake had a great game though. Very few badly thrown balls! Our best chance for success is giving Jake more opportunities he is comfortable with it's not rocket science. For whatever reason the screen just doesn't seem to be his game.

[jonny1]

I don't know, I think Jake is becoming better out of the pocket, he threw more out of the pocket against the Jags than on rollouts.

And one pass in particular I remember that was behind Adams I think it was, it was behind him because that was the only place it could be without being intercepted or knocked down, the safety was closing on the route.

[anthonypacino]

I hear you. I'm not sure plummer has the touch for that to be honest. He was having trouble with it in camp and missed Putz or Alexander on one pretty badly in the Jag game. Jake had a great game though. Very few badly thrown balls! Our best chance for success is giving Jake more opportunities he is comfortable with it's not rocket science. For whatever reason the screen just doesn't seem to be his game.
Doesn't the offensive play look really familar? like Broncos 01-02. I think Shanny has dusted off the K.I.S.S. (Keep It Simple Stupid)playbook he drew up for Griese. Remember all the short high % passes but they ultimatly led us nowhere? Sure we put some points on the board and won games but it always reminded me of a team that was not really playing to win but a team trying not to lose (if that makes sense) But I think you are correct in your theory about Shanny trying to make this like the Ravens, He has realized that he DOES NOT have the offensive weapons (Colts, 97-98 Broncos) so he will try to win it on the defensive side of the ball. A time consuming, no thrill, no mistake Offense with a smothering D. So far it has got us to 3-1, Will it get us further? And if so how far?

[Odysseus]

Screen pass? That is just too scary. Jake has this lollipop pass when he trys to throw a screen. I'd rather him practice his left handed shovel pass.

Taco John: If Jake could only throw an accurate deep ball.

Mediator: Yup. Jake sure does suck throwing the deep ball.

Whoa! Did you see that? Taco John took over my keyboard!

[meangene]

The guy I would love to draft in the future is from Notre dame:

83 Samardzija, Jeff Wide Receiver 6-5/216 JR Valparaiso, IN/Valparaiso

Anyone else see him play this year. He has unbelievable hands and Blocks like a Sherman tank. The 4.4 speed does not hurt either!

I've seen every game. That kid is unbelievable! Looks like a California surfer dude but plays tough as nails. Great baseball player too. Davie said on one broadcast that he was one of the best athletes he had ever seen. Think he's only a junior.

[meangene]

Lelie is not a bust but he will never live up to his first round draft pick expectations. He does not consistently get open or catch the ball well in traffic. Teams have to respect him deep and that has its advantages to the offense overall. But, he's really a one trick pony. I don't buy that its the game plan or that teams are gearing up to stop him. If he were that good the game plan would involve him more. Against certain defenses I think it will. But, he is not, and will not ever be, a consistent game to game threat. I would not trust him on a critical third down to either get open or make the difficult catch. I really thought this would be a breakout year for him with his emphasis on getting stronger and tougher on the short routes but I don't see it. It's early, but I'm not holding my breath.

[fontaine]

I hear ya, but I think we'll have to open the offense up in order to see another WR emerge. I am not sure we have the personnel to do that and I am not sure we can win that way. We are much better off (right now) running 600 times and keeping Jake to about 15 - 20 attempts per game. It'll be very tough to see another two-1,000 yard WR season, not to mention a #3 WR. I really think that our inability to develop a consistent #3 is at least in part a function of our offensive philosophy and the limitations of Jake. Even when Denver comes out in "open" sets with 3 and 4 WRs to set up the run, they throw everything short, get the tightends and RBs involved.

I fear the only way that we'll see another WR develop is Rod getting injured.

I totally disagree. Opening up the passing game doesn't improve or get WRs to emerge. Sometimes you get lucky and you'll find a gem that will do that, but MOST of the time the situation becomes and mess with younger guys failing miserabley like Denver's WRs did when Eddie Mac went down.

Teams open up the passing game when they know for a fact that the young WR in question can step up to the challenge. Any WR can look good on stats and in fantasy football if you throw that ball to him 11-15 times a game and he catches half of them, but the real WRs that are an every down threat against top CBs and are physical enough to gain yac are few and far between. Eddie Mac was a perfect example of this and right now Michael Clayton is doing similar things in Tampa. He's one of the most physical WRs in that his blocking, going over the middle and fighting for yac is top notch. That's rarely going to happen is you push a WR into that role by opening up the offense.

I bring up Michael Clayton because we were a whisker away from drafting him and he would have had a huge impact on this team. As it is Lelie, Watts, Adams etc etc DO NOT have the physical or mental ability to be every down targets and Shanahan is perfectly right to limit the dependency on those guys until they prove to be better all round WRs.

[bloodsunday]

I totally disagree. Opening up the passing game doesn't improve or get WRs to emerge. Sometimes you get lucky and you'll find a gem that will do that, but MOST of the time the situation becomes and mess with younger guys failing miserabley like Denver's WRs did when Eddie Mac went down.

Teams open up the passing game when they know for a fact that the young WR in question can step up to the challenge.
Chicken of the egg. Let's pretend for a moment that Jake is the problem. What would you do if you were Shanny? You would limit the playbook (and the reads). You would roll him out (which he is best at), and limit half the field. You would use more check downs (TEs and RBs). Now let's pretend for a moment that your offenseline is average (or below) at pass blocking. You would do many of the same things. I think you see what I am saying... is it fair to evalute Lelie entirely under these circumstance. Would he struggle like this in KC for example?

I don't know if Lelie is a bust or not, but I think the overall ability of this team to pass the ball has dropped (from the SuperBowl teams) and perhaps that is impacting our ability to evalute our WRs. That could be in part due to the skills of the receivers, but its also due in part to a drop off the skills of the QB and OL. I think this is a one WR offense. Perhaps that is because the WRs in question aren't good enough. Or maybe its becaues the design of this team makes it so.

[meangene]

Chicken of the egg. Let's pretend for a moment that Jake is the problem. What would you do if you were Shanny? You would limit the playbook (and the reads). You would roll him out (which he is best at), and limit half the field. You would use more check downs (TEs and RBs). Now let's pretend for a moment that your offenseline is average (or below) at pass blocking. You would do many of the same things. I think you see what I am saying... is it fair to evalute Lelie entirely under these circumstance. Would he struggle like this in KC for example?

I don't know if Lelie is a bust or not, but I think the overall ability of this team to pass the ball has dropped (from the SuperBowl teams) and perhaps that is impacting our ability to evalute our WRs. That could be in part due to the skills of the receivers, but its also due in part to a drop off the skills of the QB and OL. I think this is a one WR offense. Perhaps that is because the WRs in question aren't good enough. Or maybe its becaues the design of this team makes it so.

I agree that Plummer is not Elway. But, otherwise I don't buy this as an excuse for Lelie. Rod seems to be doing OK. No one else has stepped up, including Lelie, to be a consistent threat. If he, or anybody else, did, they would see the ball more. Plummer rolling out to take advantage of what he does best does not hurt Lelie. Many of his deep catches last year were on rollouts. In fact, I see the offense throwing often early in games to back defenses off and then running the ball. Would Lelie be more successful in a different system? Maybe. But that would be because they don't require their recievers to be complete players like here. Is Lelie a bust? No. Disapointment? Yes. After all, he does play here.

[Meck77]

One thing is for sure. Elway made the 3 Amigos and alot of other joes look like studs. I guess that's what happens when balls hit you squre in the chest and you end up with the cross of the ball imprented on your forehead from time to time.

[Popps]

Now it's Plummer's fault that Lelie can't play?

Griese didn't have any timing with the guy, either.

Smith and Adams have no problem. Our TEs seem to have no problem with Jake.

MeanGene hit the nail on the head. Lelie is a one trick pony. (a.k.a. novelty receiver.) To say that the guy isn't doing much because of Plummer.... or because we don't run the Run and Shoot offense is ridiculous.

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

The guy I would love to draft in the future is from Notre dame:

83 Samardzija, Jeff Wide Receiver 6-5/216 JR Valparaiso, IN/Valparaiso

Anyone else see him play this year. He has unbelievable hands and Blocks like a Sherman tank. The 4.4 speed does not hurt either!

I heard Mike&Mike call him Eddy Mac clone this AM, but can you imagine the folk on this board trying to spell his name?

[Swedish Extrovert]

lol...right now, Tatum Bell is more of a bust - in fantasy football

I have both Lelie and Bell

[Ray Finkle]

I have both Lelie and Bell

me too....luckily I have them behind LT, Cadillac, Moss, and Hines...they will be fine by season's end.

[Meck77]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mediator12
The guy I would love to draft in the future is from Notre dame:

83 Samardzija, Jeff Wide Receiver 6-5/216 JR Valparaiso, IN/Valparaiso

Anyone else see him play this year. He has unbelievable hands and Blocks like a Sherman tank. The 4.4 speed does not hurt either!



I heard Mike&Mike call him Eddy Mac clone this AM, but can you imagine the folk on this board trying to spell his name?



So you mean to tell me Mediator drops a name of a guy who is a junior in college and it ends up on Mike and Mike in the afternoon?

hmmm...

Has this kid been headline NFL news lately?

[watermock]

We could call him B.J.

[elsid13]

Short outs? Yeah.
Screens? No way!

I am constantly yelling at them to run a screen! They very rarely do.


They ran 3 or 4 in the Jax game. Alex Gibbs hated them and as his influenence wans we see more.

[Cito Pelon]

Let me describe a play from the Jax game, and you guys tell me why Den could not complete the pass for a first down or a TD on this play:

5:27 in the 1st Q, 3rd and 9 at the Jax 23, 2 wr's left, one right. At snap, all 3 take off downfield, a TE takes off from the left side of the line downfield, and Bell slides out of the backfield upfield to the right.

OK so far? OK . . . . Plummer has good protection, there is no player in the center of the field, no O player, no D player. There is a huuuuuuuugggge empty spot in the middle of the field, well beyond the first down line. Where does the pass go, you ask? Incomplete to Bell double-covered 2 yds short of the first down.

So I ask, with 3 wr's and a TE out in patterns, not one of them took a look to the right or left and saw that huuuuuuuuggggggge empty spot in the middle of the field and sprinted toward it? Plummer was looking right there, hopping in the pocket, waiting for somebody to run toward that huuuuuuuugggggggggge empty spot in the middle of the field on 3rd and 9 at the Jax 23, and ended up having to fire it to Bell in the forlorn hope he could hang on and get the 1st down.

That, to me, in microcosm is why the Den passing game is not clicking. So you guys tell me, WTF happened there? And is it correctable? I'd say it's correctable, I don't think the O staff coaches these receivers to ignore huuuuuuuuuggggge holes like that. I don't think these wr's and te's are coached to keep the defender right on their hips, when there is a huge hole to run to.

I don't know, and this turned into a rant, but I'm saying that play is one example of where Jake is looking at a hole in the D to throw to, and none of the receivers get to it before the pocket collapses, before the hole collapses, or they don't even recognize the hole in the D.

[DBroncos4life]

I want this guy.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/player/profile?playerId=133965

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

I want this guy.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/player/profile?playerId=133965

I haven't seen the Beav's this year and don't remember him last year. Does he have any speed? Hands?

[ludo21]

I haven't seen the Beav's this year and don't remember him last year. Does he have any speed? Hands?


Im not sure about speed, but in his picture i saw that his hands were intact. :wiggle:

[Atlas]

Denver is a horrible fantasy team.

[Macnut]

I'll take Adams/Watts any day, and I wish we'd give either of them a chance to runs some posts/go-routes.
Thats why you're not a coach. If Watts were better than Lelie he would be starting in there instead of Lelie. But then again you seem to know better and know more than the coaches. :kiddingme

[wabbit]

Lelie is not a bust but he will never live up to his first round draft pick expectations. He does not consistently get open or catch the ball well in traffic. Teams have to respect him deep and that has its advantages to the offense overall. But, he's really a one trick pony. I don't buy that its the game plan or that teams are gearing up to stop him. If he were that good the game plan would involve him more...


No offense, but you're...in error on nearly all counts.

Watch how he's worked into the offense over the next few weeks, both on rushing plays & the passing game.

You are right that teams do have to respect him, and everyone else (it seems) is also correct that Plummer is not particularly adept at the long ball...although he does have the arm.

I agree that teams aren't necessarily specifically scheming to stop him. He doesn't rate that kind of attention. But teams are taking note of his presence and trying to account for him, because he's causing opponents problems in other ways.

Fact is, he regularly clears out a zone & leaves the TE all by his lonesome...he also really helps in the rushing game by running short comeback routes, drawing off the safety or LB, then blocking down on his priority target...and is doing that damned well.

Shanahan & his staff have admitted on several occasions they still aren't sure how to use Lelie's talents. He has become better at breaking out of press coverage and he still separates well on go routes.

His principal value so far this year has been his ability to draw double coverage & leave potential tacklers downfield on pass and running plays, BUT, I understand he will be getting more action in a variety of ways.

Bust? Not hardly...watch

[Kaylore]

You bring up a good point Wabbit. Lelie often draws the best corner on the opponents team and frequently keeps the safeties back a few yards and cheated to his side a little "Just in case." That said, if Jake doesn't hook up with him for a few, than they might not honor that assignment as frequently. He has made some decent catches on on the intermediate routes, though I think he needs to improve his quickness and break on his routes cleaner.

[Odysseus]

Chicken of the egg.

I don't know if Lelie is a bust or not, but I think the overall ability of this team to pass the ball has dropped (from the SuperBowl teams) and perhaps that is impacting our ability to evalute our WRs.

I love that. I agree. The Chicken is definitely OF the egg.

We HAD a HOF QB, a HOF TE, and running back who was two season from being a HOF RB. I think whenever we try to look at the Broncos we need to realize NONE of these HOF players could have gotten the wins without the other. John Elway did not get respect until Terrell stepped up. Terrell could get stopped but Sharpe would rip things open.

Fontaine is making some good points about Lelie. The good news is the minute they stop respecting Lelie Jake has the option to burn them. (I know. I know. Will Jake see take advantage of that...got it!)

Cito is right on the money. If there are HUUUUUUGE empty spaces in the teams defense WHY aren't the recievers jumping on this?

If Lelie is drawing the best corners like Wabbit says he's doing exactly what the coachs want him to do.

I think as the team builds better rhythm they will be able to make the adjustments but right now I'm not seeing them make the adjustments fast enough. There are some communication blocks that need to be cleared up or the first game they get planned in they will be stuck. This SEEMS to be what is part of the Miami game. They did not adjust.

[Odysseus]

Denver is a horrible fantasy team.

This should be posted in the Orange Manes FAQ. It's been this way for YEARS and every year somebody wants to know who to pick.

I was in some league where the guy snatched all three Denver RB. He could never figure out which one to play and ended up tanking in that league. It was too funny. I think it was the year where Droughns blew up but he had him on the bench during all his good games.

When Rod and Eddie were playing even if you had both of them they didn't both have great games.

I picked up Sharpe the year he came back to Denver. Wow. He sucked most all of the year. The day I benched him he put up five scores or something.

WARNING: Do not draft Broncos FF players.

[fontaine]

Chicken of the egg. Let's pretend for a moment that Jake is the problem. What would you do if you were Shanny? You would limit the playbook (and the reads). You would roll him out (which he is best at), and limit half the field. You would use more check downs (TEs and RBs). Now let's pretend for a moment that your offenseline is average (or below) at pass blocking. You would do many of the same things. I think you see what I am saying... is it fair to evalute Lelie entirely under these circumstance. Would he struggle like this in KC for example?


I don't know enough to say what would be effective. But I do know that when Jake was first signed to Denver a LOT of his critics from 'zona claimed that he was never good at passing the ball to his TEs. He would just zone in on Boston and throw it to him. But Shannon Sharpe caught a ton of passes and more TDs with Jake in his FIRST year here. I'm willing to bet that Jake threw more completions to Sharpe than any other TE in his previous years as a QB. Subsequently we haven't been able to get close to matching that kind of production from Jeb and I'm inclined to believe that it's more to do with Jeb's effectiveness as a TE rather than Jake forgetting how to throw the ball to the TE. It's a similar parallel to Lelie. Ofcourse Lelie's strength is the long ball and that's something that hasn't been incorporated enough in our offense but if Lelie was a better all around WR then he would catch more passes here. It's all simple as that to me in this offense since other guys like Eddie Mac and Rod did it for years.

I don't know if Lelie is a bust or not, but I think the overall ability of this team to pass the ball has dropped (from the SuperBowl teams) and perhaps that is impacting our ability to evalute our WRs. That could be in part due to the skills of the receivers, but its also due in part to a drop off the skills of the QB and OL. I think this is a one WR offense. Perhaps that is because the WRs in question aren't good enough. Or maybe its becaues the design of this team makes it so.

After the superbowl years when Griese was in his 2nd year both Eddie and Rod caught over a 100 receptions each which was a franchise record. Mike Anderson gained 1500 yards in his rookie season with a whopping 297 rushes, so it wasn't as if they decided to ditch the running game and air it out. Griese and Frerotte combined for almost 500 passing attempts and we've seen a similar number of passing attempts last year from Plummer.

The difference, I believe comes down to this simple fact: How many passes are thrown to a WR vs. how many of those he catches.

Like I said, you could throw the ball 15 times to Lelie a game but how many times is he going to actually catch it? Compare that to Rod or Eddie Mac. If you throw the ball 10 times to each guy they are much more likely to catch most of them since they were so good at fighting through traffic and positioning themselves to make the play. The coaches have that kind of confidence in Rod since he's been doing it for years. The difference with Lelie is that you throw him the ball 5 times a game and he usually has one or two drops, maybe one or two difficult passes to catch which he does or not etc.

The bottom line is this: For years Rod Smith has had one of the highest % of passes caught compared to passes thrown to him. This year it's up to 75%. That means as a 35 year old WR going up against #1 CBs, Rod still catches 75% of all passes thrown to him which is BETTER than guys like Terrel Owens, Randy Moss, Harrison, Torry Holt, Chad Johnson, Reggie Wayne, Hines Ward, Boldin, Andre Johnson, Jimmy Smith and pretty much every notable WR you can name in any kind of pass friendly offense with any kind of QB.

In other words when you throw the ball to Rod, he catches it period. Lelie does not in the same offense, with the same OL, with the same QB. Until Lelie can prove he can consistently catch passes thrown to him he won't see his role in the offense increase.

[fontaine]

Now compare Rod's 75% catch ratio to the league leaders in passes not caught:

Lelie rankes 4th overall with 18 passes not caught.

What kind of choice do the coaches have then when they know if they throw the ball to Rod he'll come down with it 75% of the time and gain yards after the catch, whereas if they throw the ball to Lelie, they know he's missed almost twice as many passes (18) as has caught (10) so far in the season.

That's why Rod is on pace for another 100 catch season while our first round pick in Lelie is competing with an undrafted nobody in Charlie Adams for receptions.

I'm not saying Lelie is a bust. Far from it, he has the work ethic and production of a great long ball receiver. But at this stage that's pretty much all he is.

[meangene]

Now compare Rod's 75% catch ratio to the league leaders in passes not caught:

Lelie rankes 4th overall with 18 passes not caught.

What kind of choice do the coaches have then when they know if they throw the ball to Rod he'll come down with it 75% of the time and gain yards after the catch, whereas if they throw the ball to Lelie, they know he's missed almost twice as many passes (18) as has caught (10) so far in the season.

That's why Rod is on pace for another 100 catch season while our first round pick in Lelie is competing with an undrafted nobody in Charlie Adams for receptions.

I'm not saying Lelie is a bust. Far from it, he has the work ethic and production of a great long ball receiver. But at this stage that's pretty much all he is.

Great post! :thumbs:

[Odysseus]

The bottom line is this: For years Rod Smith has had one of the highest % of passes caught compared to passes thrown to him. This year it's up to 75%. That means as a 35 year old WR going up against #1 CBs, Rod still catches 75% of all passes thrown to him which is BETTER than guys like Terrel Owens, Randy Moss, Harrison, Torry Holt, Chad Johnson, Reggie Wayne, Hines Ward, Boldin, Andre Johnson, Jimmy Smith and pretty much every notable WR you can name in any kind of pass friendly offense with any kind of QB.

In other words when you throw the ball to Rod, he catches it period. Lelie does not in the same offense, with the same OL, with the same QB. Until Lelie can prove he can consistently catch passes thrown to him he won't see his role in the offense increase.

This would make one heck of a long sig. Great Post! :thumbs:

Rod is also one your better downfield blockers. I love the fast downfield players but this team needs more lunchpail players like Adams. We need a guy with guns who will take charge under coverage.

[BroncoBuff]

Denver is a horrible fantasy team.
Now compare Rod's 75% catch ratio to the league leaders in passes not caught: Lelie rankes 4th overall with 18 passes not caught.

What kind of choice do the coaches have then when they know if they throw the ball to Rod he'll come down with it 75% of the time and gain yards after the catch, whereas if they throw the ball to Lelie, they know he's missed almost twice as many passes (18) as has caught (10) so far in the season.

Fellas! Come on, it's only been FOUR GAMES! The offense has obviously not had a breakout passing day yet, but be patient. Those stats are too anecdotal, and they represent far too small a sampling, IMO. Plus, it's obvious that Rod is thrown much shorter passes, with FAR higher completion potentials. Quick slants, etc... while Lelie goes hoofing after some crazy, deep Jake chucks. They'll hook up soon. Remember last year?

Part of the problem, too, is I think Shanny is re-sold on the running game. And if it's successful, and if they get ahead in games, 15-20 pass attempts per game is PLENTY!

I had Plummer last year in FF - he was NAILS! I think the #4 QB in the NFL in fantasy points.

[fontaine]

Fellas! Come on, it's only been FOUR GAMES! The offense has obviously not had a breakout passing day yet, but be patient. Those stats are too anecdotal, and they represent far too small a sampling, IMO. Plus, it's obvious that Rod is thrown much shorter passes, with FAR higher completion potentials.

You are right. It is early but do you think Rod is the ONLY guy in the league that catches shorter passes? Please think before you choose to belittle what Rod does for this offense. There are plenty of possession WRs that only work short and intermediate routes and all I'm saying is that the stats speak for themselves. Rod is nails when it comes to catching stuff thrown his way and the stats have proved it for years.

Quick slants, etc... while Lelie goes hoofing after some crazy, deep Jake chucks. They'll hook up soon. Remember last year?

WTF? I think it's totally hypocritical that you minimize Rod's consistently solid performance by saying, well Rod just catches short routes and in the same post make excuses for Lelie by saying he just goes on deep passes. Yeah, I suppose Lelie just goes "hoofing after some crazy, deep Jake chucks" from the opponent's 30 yard line or in the red zone where he sucks a$$ as well right?

I'm not talking about what routes they run. I'm talking about how many passes they catch compared to how many times they are thrown to! We don't throw the ball to Lelie deep more than once or twice a game. What about the rest of the intermediate short passes thrown to Lelie that make up the 18 passes he's missed so far?

If you want to play fantasy football, then fine make excuses for Lelie all you want. There already are plenty of dumba$$es in the media that confuse FFL with actual football and let those perceptions get in the way of really analyzing players. But in real football, you know the kind where stats don't dictate everything Rod is still 10 times the WR Lelie is and that's why he gets so many passes thrown to him.

It's not like the coaches DONT' WANT Lelie to be successfull at short/intermediate routes. Lelie himself has said that he has to do better there and over the middle so all this talk about coaches simply asking Lelie to run deep is bull****.

If Lelie wants the ball more all he has to do is play better. Simple as that.

[BroncoBuff]

Please think before you choose to belittle what Rod does for this offense. There are plenty of possession WRs that only work short and intermediate routes and all I'm saying is that the stats speak for themselves. Rod is nails when it comes to catching stuff thrown his way and the stats have proved it for years.

It's not like the coaches DONT' WANT Lelie to be successfull at short/intermediate routes. . . . If Lelie wants the ball more all he has to do is play better. Simple as that.
I would never try to "belittle" Rod Smith - I just think comparing his "pct caught of # thrown to" is misleading. Plus, I'm responding to the title of this thread defensive-ly. I like Lelie, even though he hasn't had a breakout game yet this year.

I thought his improvement last year was really phenomenal - 1000+ yards, #1 in league in YPC. Funny thing is, Rod had several DEEP TDs last year too - more than usual for him - 85 yds vs. Atl, 80 vs. Raiders, 80 vs. somebody else. All-in-all, it was a VERY successful deep-ball season for Denver. . Nobody talks about that much, but I can't remember the last time we had so many 40+, 50+ yard completions in one year.

I KNOW - Lelie's YPC stat is misleading, too, b/c Ashley is useless over the middle. And if the ONLY balls you catch are deep balls - you're bound to have a high YPC. But I read where he really worked his a$$ off to get tougher this last off-season. I'd like to give him at least half the season to prove whether that's true or not.

I didn't say they "only" ask him to run deep routes, it's just I don't remember seeing him run too many others this year (so far). Somebody's gotta S - T - R - E - T - C - H - that field, or the running game will suffer - at least in theory.

[BroncoBuff]

One thing I know for sure - Wide receiver is this team's achilles heel.

[fontaine]

But I read where he really worked his a$$ off to get tougher this last off-season. I'd like to give him at least half the season to prove whether that's true or not.


Fair enough, that's your viewpoint. All I'm saying is that Lelie isn't getting as many passes thrown his way, because he hasn't proved himself to be that every down threat that Rod is. That's not a function of QB, OL, passing scheme or what not. It's a reflection of how Lelie is a one dimensional WR right now.

[Drek]

% of catches caught is a highly flawed stat. Routes ran, QB comfort levels, and many other situational factors play in that no WR can control.

Rod is truely one of the best recievers in the NFL still to this day when it comes to securing a pass. You rarely see a ball get within catchable range that he doesn't pull in, even with defenders near. In Lelie's case though he's sent on many deep routes where he often draws a safety over. Also, as I've said many times on here before, Jake is simply not the QB for a WR running the routes we send Lelie on. He doesn't have the cannon arm you need to bomb the ball downfield like Peyton Manning or Dante Culpepper. Jake is fully aware of this too and thats why you always see him check down to someone like Smith, Adams, etc. instead of hucking it downfield to Lelie. He knows that he simply can't put it out there reliably. Last year he tried and it led to 20 picks. We're looking to avoid that this year.

Red zone complaints? Well, it'd be nice if the playcalling would stop trying to work Lelie behind the defense in the red zone. Everyone sees it coming. If you ran him on a short slant or curl the DBs would probably trip over themselves in surprise. BUT then the CB and Safety would be able to cheat up on that side of the field to prevent the run.

Its early in the season, Lelie was already a big part of our win against KC with his two end arounds. Outside of that we've played three very good defenses who aren't going to allow deep bombs over them very often. I'd like to see Lelie get more work underneath, he looked real good at it in pre-season, but if the coaches think his deep routes are a critical part of opening up the field go for it, I'm sure he'll get his before the season is done.

[BroncoBuff]

So I ask you, with 3 wr's and a TE out in patterns, not one of them took a look to the right or left and saw that huuuuuuuuggggggge empty spot in the middle of the field - and sprinted toward it?
I am no expert on NFL passing routes, but I am sure that's the most ridiculous post I've seen in many days.

They don't draw these plays on the ground in the huddle!

And nobody ever says "go deep."

Most of the time - in fact - passes are released BEFORE the receiver even turns to look at the QB! 99% is timing! Stand on the field some time - you'll be shocked how INCREDIBLY FAST the game moves.

If recievers were free to improvise like that, it would look like the Keystone Cops out there. Guys would be running into each other . . . there'd be interceptions and tips . . . balls hitting guys in the back . . . cats living with dogs . . .

[-Slap-]

The wide receiver's job is to get open. The quarterback's job is to deliver him the football. Lelie is doing his job.

Lots of people around here have a knee-jerk Jake defense mechanism that blames everyone else whenever Flakey J can't get the job done. No big deal. We went through the same apologist behavior with the Griese people. Just pull up the thread from the game in San Diego last year and watch people try and spin Jake's four interceptions in the biggest game of the year. Its pure comedy gold.

Lelie will be a Bronco long after we've replaced Jake with a quarterback who can throw the football downfield with confidence.

[fontaine]

The wide receiver's job is to get open. The quarterback's job is to deliver him the football. Lelie is doing his job.

Lots of people around here have a knee-jerk Jake defense mechanism that blames everyone else whenever Flakey J can't get the job done. No big deal. We went through the same apologist behavior with the Griese people. Just pull up the thread from the game in San Diego last year and watch people try and spin Jake's four interceptions in the biggest game of the year. Its pure comedy gold.

Lelie will be a Bronco long after we've replaced Jake with a quarterback who can throw the football downfield with confidence.

yeah but my question is whether Lelie will still be just a downfield threat at that point or a more all around WR? Sure getting a QB with a great deep ball will help pad Lelie's stats, but more of the gruntwork done in the passing game is all about short to intermediate routes. For all the hype about the deep ball, you won't see it more than two or three times a game by an offense.

[-Slap-]

yeah but my question is whether Lelie will still be just a downfield threat at that point or a more all around WR? Sure getting a QB with a great deep ball will help pad Lelie's stats, but more of the gruntwork done in the passing game is all about short to intermediate routes. For all the hype about the deep ball, you won't see it more than two or three times a game by an offense.
And if you don't have anyone who can fill that role, teams will smother everything underneath. There's no reason Lelie can't run those routes, but the coaching staff doesn't seem to utilize him that way, probably because Jake fixates on Rod in those situations anyway.

[Odysseus]

I had Plummer last year in FF - he was NAILS! I think the #4 QB in the NFL in fantasy points.

I had Peyton Manning. I was Champion of the league. I can't play this year due to network restrictions. As it stands I can barely see games and depend on all you for insight. It's fun chatting with some of the other rival fans and keeping their minds on anything other than work related conversations.

[fontaine]

And if you don't have anyone who can fill that role, teams will smother everything underneath. There's no reason Lelie can't run those routes, but the coaching staff doesn't seem to utilize him that way, probably because Jake fixates on Rod in those situations anyway.

I don't see it that way. Portis had gained huge chunks of yardage in his first two seasons while Lelie was still trying to work out how to get off the line of scrimmage.

Yes, we need Lelie to run deep. I've said that he's great at doing it and it opens up things in the middle. But what about the red zone or on passing downs where we need someone other than Rod to move the chains?

Lelie himself has admitted in the offseason that he can't just be a long ball WR and has to improve on the short/intermediate stuff. Hopefully as the season progresses, Lelie will find ways to make more plays all over the field instead of predominantely being a deep threat.

[bloodsunday]

In other words when you throw the ball to Rod, he catches it period. Lelie does not in the same offense, with the same OL, with the same QB. Until Lelie can prove he can consistently catch passes thrown to him he won't see his role in the offense increase.
You get the fact that they play different positions, and run different routes right? The average pass thrown to Rod is probably about 10 yards. The average pass thrown to Lelie 15 or longer, lessening the percentages no matter how good you are. A 30 yard pass is harder to complete if your Peyton Manning and Marvin Harrison. Not sure how you can make an honest comparison out of this.

[bloodsunday]

But Shannon Sharpe caught a ton of passes and more TDs with Jake in his FIRST year here. I'm willing to bet that Jake threw more completions to Sharpe than any other TE in his previous years as a QB. Subsequently we haven't been able to get close to matching that kind of production from Jeb and I'm inclined to believe that it's more to do with Jeb's effectiveness as a TE rather than Jake forgetting how to throw the ball to the TE.
Well Jake's first year and this year he threw to the TE more and Lelie less? Both years Jake was considered as playing "efficiently". Do you see the parallel? Lelie had the highest yds/catch last season and over a thousand yards receiving. The guy is capable of it, but I am not sure it suits this offense and what we are trying to accomplish as a team, especially with a new and improved D. The goal early on has been to use the pass (dink and dunk) to setup the run and eat up TOP.

[Odysseus]

Red zone complaints? Well, it'd be nice if the playcalling would stop trying to work Lelie behind the defense in the red zone. Everyone sees it coming. If you ran him on a short slant or curl the DBs would probably trip over themselves in surprise. BUT then the CB and Safety would be able to cheat up on that side of the field to prevent the run.

Lelie doesn't fight for balls or hide routes well. I think under coverage Lelie would have to be all alone. I think this is where having a running back with hands is a better option. At least he'll fight for it.

Can you imagine Lelie doing some of those reverses like Rod Smith does? I can't see it. He likes to glide when he runs. Rod kind of stomps. I cannot imagine Lelie gliding into a car wreck. It's just not his style.

[bloodsunday]

Now it's Plummer's fault that Lelie can't play?

Griese didn't have any timing with the guy, either.

Smith and Adams have no problem. Our TEs seem to have no problem with Jake.

This is an exaggeration of my point if I've ever seen one. The point is that the focus is to make JAKE "efficient". That is going to change the way you run the offense. Rod is the number one receiver (number one option on many plays) and should catch more balls and have more chemistry with Jake.

I'm a little surprised you brought up Adams. It took the guy 3 years to stick on this roster and has caught all of 8 balls. Not sure how that's proof that Jake has good chemistry with all the WR other than Jake.

I'm not making excuses for Lelie. My point is that an offense which is more WR-friendly may very well be looking at Lelie in a different light right now.

Let me give you an equivalent example. It's tough to evaluate (as fans) the abilities of a corner when you DL isn't putting pressure on the QB. To the average fan it looks like your DB (Bailey last year) is getting beat when it could actually be poor help from the safety or just an unfair expectation of him (to cover for 8 seconds). It's simply not fair to say Lelie is a bust because he's not dominating in an offense that is all around below average in the passing game. His performance in the eyes of the average fan is impacted by Jake's performance, play calling, and the even the OL. Shanny must think he is doing what is expected of him.

[Odysseus]

There's no reason Lelie can't run those routes, but the coaching staff doesn't seem to utilize him that way, probably because Jake fixates on Rod in those situations anyway.

Lelie can run those routes but he runs them differently. I promise you if you switch positions the results will be the same. Rod can play Lelie's role but Lelie cannot play his.

[bloodsunday]

Thats why you're not a coach. If Watts were better than Lelie he would be starting in there instead of Lelie. But then again you seem to know better and know more than the coaches. :kiddingme
No kidding. Watts can't even catch a cold. Maybe that's the guy we should talking about as a bust.

[Odysseus]

I'm not making excuses for Lelie. My point is that an offense which is more WR-friendly may very well be looking at Lelie in a different light right now.

Broncos are a running team. Unless they have changed their general philosophy my thought is the WR block, make first downs, and help keep the running game on track.

[bloodsunday]

No offense, but you're...in error on nearly all counts.

Watch how he's worked into the offense over the next few weeks, both on rushing plays & the passing game.

You are right that teams do have to respect him, and everyone else (it seems) is also correct that Plummer is not particularly adept at the long ball...although he does have the arm.

I agree that teams aren't necessarily specifically scheming to stop him. He doesn't rate that kind of attention. But teams are taking note of his presence and trying to account for him, because he's causing opponents problems in other ways.

Fact is, he regularly clears out a zone & leaves the TE all by his lonesome...he also really helps in the rushing game by running short comeback routes, drawing off the safety or LB, then blocking down on his priority target...and is doing that damned well.

Shanahan & his staff have admitted on several occasions they still aren't sure how to use Lelie's talents. He has become better at breaking out of press coverage and he still separates well on go routes.

His principal value so far this year has been his ability to draw double coverage & leave potential tacklers downfield on pass and running plays, BUT, I understand he will be getting more action in a variety of ways.

Bust? Not hardly...watch
Excellent post Wabbit and I think a more detailed version of what I am trying to communicate:
1) The coaches don't know how to use Lelie's talents. He has talents, they maybe just don't suit our offense right now.

2) Lelie is clearing zones for the new and improved "efficient" Jake to get the balls to his check down routes. No turnovers, high TOP.

Is he Chad Johnson or Randy Moss? No. But this guy is not a bust.

[bloodsunday]

I'm not saying Lelie is a bust. Far from it, he has the work ethic and production of a great long ball receiver. But at this stage that's pretty much all he is.
Well then despite all our ranting we are saying equivalent things. I don't look at it so harshly, but I agree that he doesn't have the same skills that Rod and (maybe even Adams) has. But remember that part of coaching is to utilize your personnel to the best of their talents and get good match-ups. We can't expect every WR that ever steps foot in Dove Valley to be Rod Smith, just like we can't expect every TE to be Shannon Sharpe or Jake Plummer to be John Elway.

[Drek]

Lelie himself has admitted in the offseason that he can't just be a long ball WR and has to improve on the short/intermediate stuff. Hopefully as the season progresses, Lelie will find ways to make more plays all over the field instead of predominantely being a deep threat. Have you seen Lelie ran on many short routes? A Hook, a screen, something where he'd be within 10 yards? I've seen a small handful at best. And lets not even talk about the red zone. I'm sorry but constantly trying to make Lelie play like Randy Moss is just stupid. He isn't a jump ball guy. Let him run a screen or a quick hook in front of the endzone, secure the ball, then make the TD with his speed and you'll see a whole 'nother world of red zone production from him. But then the defense isn't nearly as worried about him getting behind them and it hurts not only our running game but our passing game, since it exposes short TE routes, lets a safety stay more towards the middle of the field where he can help on other WRs, etc..

Its unfortunate that Lelie is mostly a decoy so far this season, but its a vital decoy and its not his shortcomings that cause it. The coaching staff and Jake don't put him in a position to show off his talents. Call it a bad pick if you want, but he's not a bust, just not in the right system. Put him on the Colts and he's the exact same thing as Marvin Harrison, plus some size and weight.

[Odysseus]

They are also Jamming Lelie more than ever at the LOS. I mean mugging him. He still has not developed a worthwhile tecnique to get off the LOS consistently. Some of the deep throws are off because of this, per popps quote, and some are just off.

The worst part of this is that he can never execute any double moves, comebacks, or deep outs since the CB's are screwing the timing up. I will say this however, his blocking is MUCH improved as well as Watts. The WR's as a group are Blocking a dirtload better than last year and the running game has greatly benefitted the last two weeks ecause of it.

1. If Lelie is getting jammed at the LOS you cannot push him into underneath patterns as it leads to picks.

2. If Lelie is getting jammed at the LOS then you cannot send an accurate deep ball. (All the talk about the Rams be damned.)

3. His blocking has improved but I guess it would be in comparison to how bad it used to really be. I've seen Mike Anderson level some DT who was twice his size. I cannot imagine Lelie leveling anybody.

I am glad that people are noticing the blocking part of this because I think that is a key to the Broncos downfield success. I think the Broncos need a lunchpail kind of reciever who might help Lelie but opening up some of those clearing routes.

Lelie is NOT a bust. David Terrell is a bust. I'm glad we have both players but for different reasons.

[fontaine]

Have you seen Lelie ran on many short routes? A Hook, a screen, something where he'd be within 10 yards? I've seen a small handful at best. And lets not even talk about the red zone.


You get the fact that they play different positions, and run different routes right?

Why do you think that is?

If it looks like a dog, barks like a dog, then it's sure as hell not a fish.

[Odysseus]

Have you seen Lelie ran on many short routes? A Hook, a screen, something where he'd be within 10 yards? I've seen a small handful at best. And lets not even talk about the red zone. I'm sorry but constantly trying to make Lelie play like Randy Moss is just stupid. He isn't a jump ball guy. Let him run a screen or a quick hook in front of the endzone, secure the ball, then make the TD with his speed and you'll see a whole 'nother world of red zone production from him.

Put him on the Colts and he's the exact same thing as Marvin Harrison, plus some size and weight.

I think Peyton Manning can make a lot of recievers look like Marvin Harrison.

Broncos do an OOOGLY screen play. Randy Moss can't even play like Randy Moss right now. Hilarious! I think they can use Lelie differently but if he's getting killed on the LOS how is he supposed to be where the ball ends up? What nobody is saying is Lelie, despite being a good player, gets lost in traffic. Lelie is going to have some big games this year but there will be games where his role really is to NOT show off the Broncos offense.

I think Lelie is doing what the Broncos need and that is opening up plays. I think it would be great to see him underneath but at what cost? Is he ready? There are a lot of games left to play.

[Broncoman13]

Now compare Rod's 75% catch ratio to the league leaders in passes not caught:

Lelie rankes 4th overall with 18 passes not caught.

What kind of choice do the coaches have then when they know if they throw the ball to Rod he'll come down with it 75% of the time and gain yards after the catch, whereas if they throw the ball to Lelie, they know he's missed almost twice as many passes (18) as has caught (10) so far in the season.

That's why Rod is on pace for another 100 catch season while our first round pick in Lelie is competing with an undrafted nobody in Charlie Adams for receptions.

I'm not saying Lelie is a bust. Far from it, he has the work ethic and production of a great long ball receiver. But at this stage that's pretty much all he is.

And of those 18 passes how many were actually catchable balls. I'll gladly agree that there has been atleast 3 or 4 that Ash should have caught... but you have to notice that the balls Ash is having thrown his way are 20 yards further down field than those of Rod. Jake not being the most accurate QB doesn't help his chances much!

[fontaine]

And of those 18 passes how many were actually catchable balls. I'll gladly agree that there has been atleast 3 or 4 that Ash should have caught... but you have to notice that the balls Ash is having thrown his way are 20 yards further down field than those of Rod. Jake not being the most accurate QB doesn't help his chances much!

I totally agree, Lelie does get more awkward passes thrown to him but that gets back to the same point I keep having to make. That's supposedly Lelie's strong suit, you know catching deep passes. God forbid if we actually ask him to do the one thing he's only good at. If Lelie wants to be an every down target and take receptions off Rod on the short to intermediate routes then he's going to have to be more consistent and prove it!

All the excuses, are just that. The minute Lelie starts proving that he can consistently go over the middle, get short passes and gain first downs and yards after the catch like Rod is when he'll start getting more of those passes thrown his way. Until then, he's a good but one dimensional deep threat. It's not like the coaches said to themselves we want to stunt his growth by giving Adams passes across the middle rather than Lelie.

[Vegas_Bronco]

Jake's accuracy is to blame also in all of this. Would you be confident in your route if you knew you would be coming back to the ball 5-10 yards on the deep ball or running the middle just to reach back for an errant pass and still take the shot? Lelie has never had an accurate QB and plays for a 'short-field' offense with a short field game plan and therein lies his confidence and limited skill. He reminds me a lot of K. McCardell, so much talent that doesn't get used unless absolutely needed. Now that Keenan is with Brees (accurate QB) he's hitting paydirt every weekend!

I still feel that Lelie could improve, but he has not been given 'the reps' to make it all happen.

[Odysseus]

You guys want a Martz style offense? Great. Bulger looks great on paper...

http://www.nfl.com/features/squibkicks/

"When are the Rams going to figure out that Mike Martz is the most self-destructive coach in the league? This guy continues to make horrible coaching decisions year after year, in critical times during every game. If he hasn't figured it out by now, he never will understand that a balanced running game complements a great passing game."
-- Jim M., St. Louis

Shanny isn't the only one....

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/columnists.nsf/berniemiklasz/story/8B04D07B4C8B193C8625706800710070?OpenDocument

Before Martz arrived as offensive coordinator in 1999, the St. Louis Cardinals and Rams had won 43.6 percent of their games, while making the playoffs only three times in 32 seasons, with no postseason wins. Since Martz entered to redesign and run the 1999 offense (then taking over as head coach in 2000), the Rams' winning percentage is .667, with six postseason victories and two trips to the Super Bowl. As a head coach, four of his five teams have qualified for the playoffs averaging more than 25 points a game.

I'm sorry, but does this really qualify as football hell?

This isn't to suggest that Martz should be immune to criticism or insulated from a potential dismissal. If the special teams continue to flop, it's on him. If this defense doesn't click for defensive coordinator Larry Marmie, then the blame rests with Martz for sticking with his pal Marmie instead of hiring a more imaginative and inspirational defensive coordinator. If Martz's sideline screw-ups result in crucial victories being thrown away, that's his responsibility, and he'll be called out on it.

[Odysseus]

This is more Martz stuff....Discuss.

•No NFL team has had the outright winner of the MVP award for three consecutive seasons. Green Bay came closest with Brett Favre in 1995 and 1996, but Favre shared the honor with Detroit's Barry Sanders in 1997.
•In the last three seasons, the Rams have averaged 32.6 points a game and 420 yards total offense.
•In 2001, the Rams became the first team to score at least 500 points in three consecutive seasons.
•In the last three seasons, the Rams have broken 16 NFL offensive records and 75 team records. The Rams have tied 4 NFL offensive records and 30 team records. The team records are for offensive, defensive, and special teams. "No question," says Bob Oates, pro football historian and observer of the game since 1940. "What's unprecedented is that Martz is so far out in front of everyone else."
"What a splendid coach!" said Hall of Famer Sid Gillman, whose San Diego Chargers teams Martz followed as a teenager in the 1960s. "The Rams don't sit there in one formation, letting the defense size them up. Martz's offense is all over the place. They use the entire field."
"I love the way Martz plays," says Don Coryell, legendary coach of the Air Coryell Chargers. "It's exceeded anything we did. He finds the weak spot in the defense and applies pressure to it."
"I just marvel at them," says Hall of Fame quarterback Dan Fouts, the leader of Coryell's teams. "At their best they're similar to what we were, always a step ahead of the opposition. And they're faster."
"This is one of the most volatile, distinct offenses in the history of the game," says Steve Sabol, NFL historian and President of NFL Films.

[Drek]

Why do you think that is?

If it looks like a dog, barks like a dog, then it's sure as hell not a fish.Here's a question then, why did Lelie bust his ass improving his intermediate route running this preseason? By all professional scouts takes he did improve, and we saw it substantiated to some degree in some preseason actionw here they went to him short.

You're the one trying to make a comparision between two totally different WRs based on a crappy metric like percent of passes caught, despite it being a totally arbitrary, useless, stat.

As for his blocking, well yeah, he's not Rod Smith or Eddy Mac, deal with it. Those two were at one point the two best blocking WRs in football. Lelie at this point is a better blocking WR than most give him credit for. He won't level anyone but he busts ass on the block and rarely ruins a play as a result. You want to talk about bad blocking go harp up the Watts or Bell trees, those guys can't block and thats exactly why they aren't out there.

And yeah, you will get jammed at the line if the DBs know you're always going deep. Then they just need to disrupt the timing of the play. Lelie has done everything the Broncos coaching staff has asked of him and done it well. Why not question how they are using him before labelling him a bust or defending Jake for how ****ty his deep ball is.

[Popps]

By all professional scouts takes he did improve, and we saw it substantiated to some degree in some preseason actionw here they went to him short.

Why not question how they are using him before labelling him a bust or defending Jake for how ****ty his deep ball is.

So, we're talking about scouting reports?


Very heady and creative. Has a gambler's mentality and a knack for miracle comebacks. Throws a nice deep ball. Mobile enough to avoid the rush or pick up yardage. Cut down his mistakes in 2003 and really responded to Mike Shanahan's coaching.

Most things you read on Plummer says he has a pretty good arm and throws a decent deep ball. On what are you basing your astute analysis of Plummer's deep ball? Two passes to Lelie this year? One of which Lelie ran directly back into a DB and missed a sure TD? (Second TD he missed in the game.)

I seem to recall Plummer having no problems hitting Boston on the deep route... Frank Sanders, etc. He's had no problems creating chemistry with other receivers. But, just like when Griese was here... Lelie doesn't seem to be on the same page as the QB.

I've already said that Lelie is NOT a bust... but he's certainly not a first rounder. Didn't we pick Adams up off of the street scrap heap? I'll bet you he outplays Lelie by the end of the year.

[Drek]

So, we're talking about scouting reports?


Very heady and creative. Has a gambler's mentality and a knack for miracle comebacks. Throws a nice deep ball. Mobile enough to avoid the rush or pick up yardage. Cut down his mistakes in 2003 and really responded to Mike Shanahan's coaching.

Most things you read on Plummer says he has a pretty good arm and throws a decent deep ball. On what are you basing your astute analysis of Plummer's deep ball? Two passes to Lelie this year? One of which Lelie ran directly back into a DB and missed a sure TD? (Second TD he missed in the game.)

I seem to recall Plummer having no problems hitting Boston on the deep route... Frank Sanders, etc. He's had no problems creating chemistry with other receivers. But, just like when Griese was here... Lelie doesn't seem to be on the same page as the QB.

I've already said that Lelie is NOT a bust... but he's certainly not a first rounder. Didn't we pick Adams up off of the street scrap heap? I'll bet you he outplays Lelie by the end of the year.
I'm assuming you misread this part:
By all professional scouts takes he did improve, and we saw it substantiated to some degree in some preseason actionw here they went to him short. Notice the reference to his play this preseason? We all saw that. Or how about the coaches specifically saying that he was doing well? They did. One unsourced scouting article on Jake from god knows when? Sorry, I'll pass on that as sound analysis. I've watched Jake his entire career, from ASU to AZ to here, he's never had a "nice" deep ball. It gets there, but its not accurate. Can he throw it deep? Lelie's 1,000+ yard season and the best YPC of any WR worth considering last season say he can, but those 20 picks sure weren't real fun to watch either. He never threw downfield like that to Boston or Sanders either, they had some years with decent YPC but it often involved YAC. Boston could go deep but thats because Boston could have been an all time great WR if he would have stayed away from the 'roids. As for chemistry, there wasn't a whole lot of chemistry problems last year, now where there? Just Lelie making big catches when Jake got the ball to him, or picks coming back the other way when Jake didn't.

Thing is, I don't really fault Jake. I greatly prefer how he's been playing this year. He isn't a downfield passer and we don't need one. We need a guy who can distribute the ball safely and judiciously thorughout our offensive weapons for three and a half quarters, then flip the switch if necessary to make big plays for our team if we need 'em to close out a game. Jake is the perfect guy for that. My gripe is with Kubiak and to some degree Shanahan for not getting Lelie involved in the short range passing game. He's done everything they've asked, they've even commented on how well he's done at adding muscle, getting stronger, practicing his blocking, and running better routes. When do we see the payoff for all his hard work that they themselves have been lauding?

I have to believe that at some point we'll see Lelie get deeply involved in the short game. When he does don't be surprised if he proves a lot of you haters wrong. He's got the talent to be a hell of alot more than a decoy, despite what Kubiak is quite content to currently use him as.