Isnt it Ironic? Cleveland's D-Line is Struggling

[epicSocialism4tw]

From ESPN.com:

Browns head coach Romeo Crennel pointed to the team's pass rush as an area the team must work on before it returns from the bye in Week 5. The Browns have notched only three sacks in three games, and opponents are completing 76.2 percent of their pass attempts vs. Cleveland. :spit:


The media darling Crennel D is suffering. Might it have helped to have Big Daddy Warren or Courtney Brown lining up over there?

[Rocket 7]

Can't blame Crennel for cleaning house. Two years the Browns will be a playoff team with Dilfer

[No1BroncoFan]

The media darling Crennel D is suffering. Might it have helped to have Big Daddy Warren or Courtney Brown lining up over there?
Hell, no! Don't you remeber what all those wonderfully intelligent Browns fans were saying about how glad they were that they were gone and how the Browns got the best end of teh trade? :devil:

Ben

[epicSocialism4tw]

Other comments from the same article:

"More good news, besides the negative MRI, out of Denver last week was the fact CB Champ Bailey (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=4655)'s hamstring strain from Week 3 was not in the same place it was when he was held out for the duration of the preseason. Teammates and coaches are confident in his ability to play through physical ailments (he is also suffering from a dislocated left shoulder) and are convinced he can do anything, which we're hearing has led to a budding legendary status among the Broncos and their fans."

"Denver sources indicate the hard work shown by the rest of his new D-line mates has ignited Trevor Pryce (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=3916)'s work ethic this season and made him a better player coming off the major back surgery that shelved him in 2004. "

[Kaylore]

Other comments from the same article:
"Denver sources indicate the hard work shown by the rest of his new D-line mates has ignited Trevor Pryce (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=3916)'s work ethic this season and made him a better player coming off the major back surgery that shelved him in 2004. "
They can't bring themselves to actually say the Browncos are any good though. "They made Trevor Play harder! He's making that line look good."

[Dr. Broncenstein]

Trevor only has to blow up double-teams now.... Thanks Cleveland!

[Paladin]

Well, no one likes to admit they made a terrible mistake and look like fools.....

[-Slap-]

From ESPN.com:

Browns head coach Romeo Crennel pointed to the team's pass rush as an area the team must work on before it returns from the bye in Week 5. The Browns have notched only three sacks in three games, and opponents are completing 76.2 percent of their pass attempts vs. Cleveland. :spit:


The media darling Crennel D is suffering. Might it have helped to have Big Daddy Warren or Courtney Brown lining up over there?
It wasn't happening for either of those guys in Cleveland. What was the point of keeping them?

Since Cleveland was a four win team last year, it might not be too surprising that they didn't have a stable of good defensive linemen stashed away to immediately replace the four they sent to Denver.

They wound up with Droughns and a fourth rounder and Crennel can start building the team his way. As of right now, the team has virtually nothing in the front seven. You think their line is bad, check out their linebacking corps. Andra Davis, who's nothing special, is the best they've got and everybody else is a stopgap at best.

Daylon McCuthcheon is a Duralog at one corner spot. The other corner, Gary Baxter, is probably the best player on the defense, but he started the season slow because of a concussion.

Beyond all that, its just way too early to judge any of the new coaches.

[listopencil]

I heard Lionel Dalton wants to play...

[wabbit]

Also, it's worth noting that Crennel never attended the Shanahan School of Re-Negotiation.

The Browns were up against some humongous salary escalations...especially in the cases of Brown & Warren, that Denver now has to deal with after the season.

The feeling is that Shanahan will ask them to re-negotiate, and if they refuse, make a judgement call on their worth...keep or cut.

The feeling among the front office folks I've talked to is that the team on the whole is absolutely gaa-gaa over the aquisition of John Engleberger, and that he could replace one of the pricey Browncos...Courtney Brown springs to mind.

I know Shanahan & Coyer were, and are very pleased with how hard Brown, Warren, Ekuban & Myers are working to build, or re-build their careers, but, as has been the case in years past...including the drawn-out saga of Trevor Pryce...if the price isn't right, neither is the current location.

[Dagmar]

Notice that not only has all the BROWNCO bullcrap gone away, but everyone giving us props doesn't mention the sheeat they gave us for our draft and pick ups.

The draft gave us Darrent and Fox, we picked up the D line which could be the best in league.

Humble pie obviusly isn't the media's favorite dish.

[Ballhawk]

Also, it's worth noting that Crennel never attended the Shanahan School of Re-Negotiation.

The Browns were up against some humongous salary escalations...especially in the cases of Brown & Warren, that Denver now has to deal with after the season.

The feeling is that Shanahan will ask them to re-negotiate, and if they refuse, make a judgement call on their worth...keep or cut.



Wabbit, you think that there may be a chance that Warren and Brown stay at less than market value?? Clev was a hell of sorts and I would think Warren in paticular may want to enjoy the game more than push or a few extra mil on the signing bonus.

I think EE and Meyers each have 2 years left. Pryce, well who knows. I think Shanny has a love hate relationship much like he had with Sharpe.

[fontaine]

Wabbit, you think that there may be a chance that Warren and Brown stay at less than market value?? Clev was a hell of sorts and I would think Warren in paticular may want to enjoy the game more than push or a few extra mil on the signing bonus.

I think EE and Meyers each have 2 years left. Pryce, well who knows. I think Shanny has a love hate relationship much like he had with Sharpe.

Brown isn't working off his deal with Cleveland.

He was cut outright and Denver signed him to a NEW contract where his pay is nominal this year.

But next year, given playing time, performance and ofcourse if he stay healthy Brown would kick in as much as $8million for the remaining years of his contract. Unless Brown gets injured, he'll stay a Bronco given that he's still a young fella.

Warren, I feel, should be kept as well. We haven't had a dominating DT since Pryce was switched outside and results are as clear as daylight to see. Who knows what happens with him, but I'm pretty sure Brown signed a new deal in Denver with an eye on staying here if he can pan out and stay healthy.

[Odysseus]

Does anybody have the lengh of contract on the Browncos deals?

[Ballhawk]

My understanding is that Myers got extended to 2 years, EE has 2 years, Warren can Void after this year, and Browns Bonus next year is a large part roster bonus on a 4 year deal.

[-Slap-]

The feeling among the front office folks I've talked to is that the team on the whole is absolutely gaa-gaa over the aquisition of John Engleberger, and that he could replace one of the pricey Browncos...Courtney Brown springs to mind.

They should be ecstatic. I still can't believe all he cost us was Middlebrooks. It kind of bugs me that whenever people talk about The Browncos (I don't find the nickname insulting) they usually forget to include Engelberger as the other defensive line addition who's helping to make a difference this season.

[Odysseus]

I love the Browncos nickname.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

My understanding is that Myers got extended to 2 years, EE has 2 years, Warren can Void after this year, and Browns Bonus next year is a large part roster bonus on a 4 year deal.

Yep, and the cap hits as they stand now for Brown, Warren, and Pryce should total around $28.5M for next year.

[Odysseus]

Yep, and the cap hits as they stand now for Brown, Warren, and Pryce should total around $28.5M for next year.

Is there a way to keep this unit together next year? I'm just dreaming aloud. ;D

[Kaylore]

I love the Browncos nickname.
I don't see it as pejorative either.

[yavoon]

no, its not ironic.

[easymobee]

2 threads have popped up on the Browns board due to recent good press that their former D-Line have been receiving.

One of them is our local columinst and the other is the Clayton piece.

The local piece is dismissed as being a "Homer" columnist.

good reading.

A. They wave the # of tackles around as "proof" that Warren and Co. are being unproductive. ( O. Roye has 20 tackles appearantly ). Espescially in Warrens case tackles aren't the true hallmark of how effective he has been ... how many years of All-Pro did Ted Washington gobble up with his 30-40 tackles per year?

B. I like how they've danced around posting the Forced and Recovered fumble numbers during these 2 discussions.

http://dawgtalk.clevelandbrowns.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1294599&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1


http://dawgtalk.clevelandbrowns.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1291631&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1

[broncosteven]

Is there a way to keep this unit together next year? I'm just dreaming aloud. ;D

Isn't Trev's deal up at end of this year or did it get extended after he took the paycut? Pryce, Warren, Brown on one line is amazing but I don't see us being able to keep Warren.

Although some of the dead cap $ might be going away, Griese is off the books right & I think Nitro Ihop is off this year that was a couple of 6 mil right? Maybe with some of the dead $ gone we can invest in players that actually are contributing & not busts.

[easymobee]

Ted Washington

1998 - 34 solo 15 assisted (49) 4.5 sacks
1999 - 35 solo 10 assisted (45) 2.5 sacks
2000 - 37 solo 21 assisted (58) 2.5 sacks
2001 - 26 solo 7 assisted (33) 1.5 sacks
2002- Injured most of the year
2003 - 32 solo 8 assisted (40) 2 sacks

BUF-CHI-NE

These were the years where he was all-pro virtually every year.

Warren Sapp in his prime: I forgot what a great passrusher Sapp used to be.

1998: 28 solo 16 assisted (44) 7 sacks
1999: 27 solo 14 assisted (41) 12.5 sacks
2000: 43 solo 9 assisted ( 52) 16.5 sacks
2001: 28 solo 8 assisted (36) 6 sacks
2002: 40 solo 7 assisted (47) 7.5 sacks

out of his prime

2004 OAK 30 solo 12 assisted (42) 2.5 sacks

[epicSocialism4tw]

I think that Warren is the one guy that you have to keep. Warren even more than Pryce. Game changing DT's are impossible to find. As long as we keep Warren and Pryce we should be okay.

[GonzoLays]

The cap isn't what people think it is. It is just a convient excuse for owners NOT to pay players. Case in point, the Washington Redskins. They PAY their players. They have given out more bonus money than any team in the league the past seven seasons than any team in the league. You NEVER hear them complain about CAP HELL or DEAD MONEY. Because it is all a farse. The San Franciso 49ers have been in cap hell TWICE in the past eight years and you can't even name one big name player they dished out money for.

To put it simply, if we want to keep a player we can; if we don't want to keep a player we don't have to. Same goes for the rest of the teams in the league.

Owners are in the game for the money, not the prestige. Once you understand that, you understand the league.

[chrisp]

I believe Pryce's deal was restructured, which he did once it became clear that people wanted to see how he had recovered before splashing the cash He's due a big payday next season if he stays healthy and keeps playing like he is.

Boy, did those jags pick the WRONG DE to splash all that cap-room on.... rofl

I don't think its likely we keep the d-line together in it's current form, but let's not forget that Shanny has a knack of getting vets to restructure so Its not inconcievable. If I had to bet, I'd say the likliest to move on is Brown, after that its Pryce, after that Warren. The latter has been making decent money all his career and has drawn many, many comments this season about how happy he looks in his new environment, so I can't help but feel he will restructure if he has to.

Of course a LOT depends upon the rest of the season. If the D-line maintains its level of fitness and play, we're in for a treat, but if another one of those late-season collapses hits us again, they won't be worth quite so much on the open market.....

[GonzoLays]

To give you an idea how much money owners make all you have to do is look at the collective barganing agreement between the players and the owners; the players make 58% percent of all revenues garned by the leauge and the cap is set around 83 million dollars this year. So right off the bat the owners make atleast 60 million because they keep the rest of the 42% of league wide revenues. Then, you have factor in all the items that is not caculated in league wide revenue that owners make money off of. To put it simply, they make a killing and every single owner could pay out money like Dan Snyder does, but they don't, because they are in it for the money. Hence the "cap hell" and "dead money" terms they use to justify not paying players.

[Dagmar]

To give you an idea how much money owners make all you have to do is look at the collective barganing agreement between the players and the owners; the players make 58% percent of all revenues garned by the leauge and the cap is set around 83 million dollars this year. So right off the bat the owners make atleast 60 million because they keep the rest of the 42% of league wide revenues. Then, you have factor in all the items that is not caculated in league wide revenue that owners make money off of. To put it simply, they make a killing and every single owner could pay out money like Dan Snyder does, but they don't, because they are in it for the money. Hence the "cap hell" and "dead money" terms they use to justify not paying players.

I wish I knew how all this crap works...
In soccer at home the players make what they make, thats it.
TOp player at my club earned 50,000 bucks a week.

Salary cap?
Dead money?
Cap hit?
Compensatory picks?
If there was a smiley for a brain exploding, it'd be here.

In my mind, Denver = Rich club, so if you wanna keep excellent players, pay em! It's that simple in other sports at least.
I'm confused

[bendog]

I think that Warren is the one guy that you have to keep. Warren even more than Pryce. Game changing DT's are impossible to find. As long as we keep Warren and Pryce we should be okay.
Agreed. I wonder if he'll cont to have a good attitude.

But dead money and cap hell aren't all a fiction, gonzolays. Event he skins fans have said Davis had to go cause of the cap hit. Can they restructure, sure, if the player wants to. But check out the CBA. Teh players get a cut of the shared revenue, it's more than 50%. Den was in cap hell wtih the Duke, TD and the crack corner from kc with the dead money.

Clev's cleaverly got a lot of cap money after this year, but they're cap is covering the dline this year.

[DomCasual]

2 threads have popped up on the Browns board due to recent good press that their former D-Line have been receiving.

One of them is our local columinst and the other is the Clayton piece.

The local piece is dismissed as being a "Homer" columnist.

good reading.

A. They wave the # of tackles around as "proof" that Warren and Co. are being unproductive. ( O. Roye has 20 tackles appearantly ). Espescially in Warrens case tackles aren't the true hallmark of how effective he has been ... how many years of All-Pro did Ted Washington gobble up with his 30-40 tackles per year?

B. I like how they've danced around posting the Forced and Recovered fumble numbers during these 2 discussions.

http://dawgtalk.clevelandbrowns.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1294599&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1


http://dawgtalk.clevelandbrowns.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1291631&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1
I'm responsible for the Jim Armstrong post over there. I posted it without comment, and then just watched them run. I have been kind of getting a kick out of it all day.:)

[Ballhawk]

I just do not get their we got Dilfer argument. They traded our 4th for Dilfer, that I get, but without that they would have sent their 4th for Dilfer. Either way they get Dilfer.

[DomCasual]

I just do not get their we got Dilfer argument. They traded our 4th for Dilfer, that I get, but without that they would have sent their 4th for Dilfer. Either way they get Dilfer.
You obviously are not capable of thinking on their level.

My favorite thing over there is their constant reference to the "Shannahan (sic) PR Machine" - as if we live in some sort of Broncos communist state. Their thought is that anyone that writes anything good about former Browns must be in "Shannahan's" back pocket.

I swear - there seem to be a lot of teams with stupid fans.

[watermock]

They should be ecstatic. I still can't believe all he cost us was Middlebrooks. It kind of bugs me that whenever people talk about The Browncos (I don't find the nickname insulting) they usually forget to include Engelberger as the other defensive line addition who's helping to make a difference this season.

Not to mention that moving our #1 pick to Washington freed up money to keep Pryce. Now if the Skins would just stop sliming out sleazy wins. Time to put a stop to this madness. They are like the Bears of a few years ago...hell...they ain't even that good. Just lucky, and it's not sour grapes...it's a stone cold fact.

[footstepsfrom#27]

I wish I knew how all this crap works...
In soccer at home the players make what they make, thats it.
TOp player at my club earned 50,000 bucks a week.

Salary cap?
Dead money?
Cap hit?
Compensatory picks?
If there was a smiley for a brain exploding, it'd be here.

In my mind, Denver = Rich club, so if you wanna keep excellent players, pay em! It's that simple in other sports at least.
I'm confused
I have decided there are exactly 5 little animated stick figure dudes in your avitar making all that comotion...LOL

[-Slap-]

Ted Washington

1998 - 34 solo 15 assisted (49) 4.5 sacks
1999 - 35 solo 10 assisted (45) 2.5 sacks
2000 - 37 solo 21 assisted (58) 2.5 sacks
2001 - 26 solo 7 assisted (33) 1.5 sacks
2002- Injured most of the year
2003 - 32 solo 8 assisted (40) 2 sacks

BUF-CHI-NE

These were the years where he was all-pro virtually every year.

Warren Sapp in his prime: I forgot what a great passrusher Sapp used to be.

1998: 28 solo 16 assisted (44) 7 sacks
1999: 27 solo 14 assisted (41) 12.5 sacks
2000: 43 solo 9 assisted ( 52) 16.5 sacks
2001: 28 solo 8 assisted (36) 6 sacks
2002: 40 solo 7 assisted (47) 7.5 sacks

out of his prime

2004 OAK 30 solo 12 assisted (42) 2.5 sacks

Sapp's an asshole, and his played has dropped off greatly, but he was a terror in his prime. I can't see any way they keep him out of the Hall of Fame.

[epicSocialism4tw]

From ESPN.com:

• The Denver Broncos (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/clubhouse?team=den) defensive line additions of Gerard Warren (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=5450), Courtney Brown (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=5030), Ebenezer Ekuban, and Michael Myers (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=4330) have all played a solid role in the 3-1 start. Warren has been the most impressive of the group and the Broncos look like they got a steal for a 4th-round pick. His play only validates what a few people in the Browns organization were saying all along -- former Head Coach Butch Davis and former defensive coordinator Dave Campo had no clue as to how to use the former 1st-round pick.

[bendog]

What impresses me about Warren is that for a guy listed around 325, he not only looks pretty svelt but he moves good. I don't know if he'll keep it up, but he's impressive as hell.

[epicSocialism4tw]

What impresses me about Warren is that for a guy listed around 325, he not only looks pretty svelt but he moves good. I don't know if he'll keep it up, but he's impressive as hell.

I agree.

He is smooth and quick enough to get pressure on the QB. The guy is a potential all-pro DT. I cant think of anyone who would deserve it more after 4 games.