Page 2: Whitlock says Shanahan is "unraveling"

[bloodsunday]

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=whitlock/050915&num=2

5. Miami's Nick Saban may prove to be the best coach in the history of the NFL, but beating the Broncos in his opener didn't say anything about him.

That Denver disaster was all about Mike Shanahan. I take that back. That Denver disaster was all about John Elway. I've long contended that Elway is/was the greatest player to ever play the game. Watching Shanahan unravel as a "mastermind" without Elway further proves my point.

Shanahan simply can't coach without Elway. Shanahan's ego isn't out of control. He hasn't changed from his Elway days; he's just the same coach Al Davis fired in Oakland

Also note worthy...

10. Kansas City's defense is closer to being fixed than Indianapolis' defense.

Listen, I love the addition of Corey Simon to the middle of Indy's D. Simon, who looked like he swallowed Jerry Ball, is exactly what Tony Dungy's unit needed: a human bowling ball to plug running lanes.

But Indy's near shutout of the Baltimore Ravens has more to do with Brian Billick's continued offensive ineptness than the Colts' unveiling a defense capable of winning in January. Billick might be the worst offensive coach in the history of the NFL. Billick is the man who decided Kyle Boller was a franchise quarterback. If not for Marvin Lewis and Ray Lewis' carrying the Ravens to a Super Bowl title, Billick would be in the unemployment line.

Meanwhile, Kansas City's rebuilt defense showed off its added speed (linebackers Derrick Johnson and Kendrell Bell and corner Patrick Surtain) and a new look (12-15 snaps in a 3-4 scheme) in demolishing the Jets.

[bloodsunday]

Corey Simon , who looked like he swallowed Jerry Ball,
ROFL!

He looked HUGE on Sunday night. OMG.

[ZachKC]

Corey Simon did look massive.

[DBroncos4life]

They did say something about look at his thigs but my screen went white. Was that him???

[GoHAM]

You know you've been hitting the buffet line a little too hard when the numbers start popping off your jersey. ROFL!

[telluride]

Interesting that we've got three comments and nothing about Whitlock's main assertion.

[Maximus]

Interesting that we've got three comments and nothing about Whitlock's main assertion.

Everyone here knows that whitlock is telling the truth... I suspect that he ( Whitlock ) has been reading my material!

[bloodsunday]

Interesting that we've got three comments and nothing about Whitlock's main assertion.
Let me be the first then...errr... the second.

Frankly, its a little hard to argue. Shanny has had trouble adapting to life without John. He has the benefit of a stable coaching staff and the best owner in pro sports. Shanahan also has total control so he could do anything he wanted -- switch systems, switch dominant units, fire anyone, draft anyone, and sign any free agent. So far Bowlen has given him a free pass on all of it. I do recognize that people often make too much of the argument (I don't think NE is 3 of 4 without Brady), but nonetheless Shanny has had 7 years now to get it figured out.

I am NOT advocating that Shanny be fired. By I am advocating that he see the light. He needs to quit banging his head against the wall with the "we're one or two players away" mentality and seriously evalute himself, his assistant coaches, and the personnel on this team. He needs to learn to coach to the strengths of his personnel instead of churning over the roster every season to find quick-fix guys that match his "system". This team is spinning its wheels. 10 - 6 is not a bad place to be spinning them, but I'm over that and ready for this team to take the next step. I do think his ego keeps him from admitting that just maybe this team is farther away than he continues to tell us.

IMHO.

For those that disagree... ask yourself this: what do you think of Mike Holmgren's career?

[chrisp]

Well I can't quite BELIEVE that people are actually being paid to write this c**p. We've been hearing it for years but that's the most ludcrously OTT assertion of the tired old "can't win without Elway" line I've ever heard.

The thing I love is that his memory seems to cut out if you go back further than 1995. Now Elway is enshrined as a 100% bona fide hall-of-famer (and rightly so) its easy to credit him with god-like powers of turning a sad sack of a coach into a supposed 'mastermind'. What everybody forgets though, is that when Shanny took over Elway was occasionally labelled a 'choker' for all those superbowls he couldn't win, and his consistent failure in the big one had a lot of people feeling that he lacked a certain something that separates the greats from the also-rans.

Note also that during the Shanny years, Elway scrambled less (becuase he was older, and because he had better protection) and won fewer come-from-behind victories (becuase he was ahead in the 4th a lot more) and generally played less like a one-man team and more like a key component of a good overall team.

Despite that however, I've said it before and I'll say it again: even the best coaches still need great players. I wonder if when Brady retires, Bellichick will be lambasted for not being able to win without him and people will mock the fact that he was called a 'mastermind' way back in old 2005.........

[DBroncos4life]

Is anyone shocked that we are having a hard time without Elway? Look how many QB's the Phins have gone through after Marino, now look at the Cowboys with Akiman and Staubach (sp). I'm pretty sure the Steelers had a hard time when Terry quit as well. Its not easy replacing a legend. I don't care who the coach is.

[OrangeShadow]

simon was massive but still had a soild game. imagin if he was in shape

[NaptownChief]

Is anyone shocked that we are having a hard time without Elway? Look how many QB's the Phins have gone through after Marino,


And how many coaches since? Three....Denver is the only one that has never held the coach accountable, not sure if that is right or wrong but the case either way.

[Montaq]

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=whitlock/050915&num=2

5. Miami's Nick Saban may prove to be the best coach in the history of the NFL, but beating the Broncos in his opener didn't say anything about him.

That Denver disaster was all about Mike Shanahan. I take that back. That Denver disaster was all about John Elway. I've long contended that Elway is/was the greatest player to ever play the game. Watching Shanahan unravel as a "mastermind" without Elway further proves my point.

Shanahan simply can't coach without Elway. Shanahan's ego isn't out of control. He hasn't changed from his Elway days; he's just the same coach Al Davis fired in Oakland

Also note worthy...

10. Kansas City's defense is closer to being fixed than Indianapolis' defense.

Listen, I love the addition of Corey Simon to the middle of Indy's D. Simon, who looked like he swallowed Jerry Ball, is exactly what Tony Dungy's unit needed: a human bowling ball to plug running lanes.

But Indy's near shutout of the Baltimore Ravens has more to do with Brian Billick's continued offensive ineptness than the Colts' unveiling a defense capable of winning in January. Billick might be the worst offensive coach in the history of the NFL. Billick is the man who decided Kyle Boller was a franchise quarterback. If not for Marvin Lewis and Ray Lewis' carrying the Ravens to a Super Bowl title, Billick would be in the unemployment line.

Meanwhile, Kansas City's rebuilt defense showed off its added speed (linebackers Derrick Johnson and Kendrell Bell and corner Patrick Surtain) and a new look (12-15 snaps in a 3-4 scheme) in demolishing the Jets.

LOL Fatass Whitlock making fun of someone's weight. Oh the irony.

[DBroncos4life]

And how many coaches since? Three....Denver is the only one that has never held the coach accountable, not sure if that is right or wrong but the case either way.


My thinking is why should Denver fire a coach that won 2 super bowls with a great QB. Wouldn't it be easier to find the great QB instead of the great QB and a coach that can win??? JMO

[NaptownChief]

My thinking is why should Denver fire a coach that won 2 super bowls with a great QB. Wouldn't it be easier to find the great QB instead of the great QB and a coach that can win??? JMO

That all depends on whether you believe that coach was instrumental in winning that Super Bowl or just lucky enough to be the one keeping the seat warm while Elway was busy making it happen....much like Phil Jackson being lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time with Jordan.

[bloodsunday]

Is anyone shocked that we are having a hard time without Elway? Look how many QB's the Phins have gone through after Marino, now look at the Cowboys with Akiman and Staubach (sp). I'm pretty sure the Steelers had a hard time when Terry quit as well. Its not easy replacing a legend. I don't care who the coach is.
This is a fair point. However, its not like this team is void of talent. It's not like he hasn't had 7 years to figure it out.

[DBroncos4life]

That all depends on whether you believe that coach was instrumental in winning that Super Bowl or just lucky enough to be the one keeping the seat warm while Elway was busy making it happen....much like Phil Jackson being lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time with Jordan.


Its hard to say. Jackson has won without Jordan though but he has always had good teams around him. Does he bring out the best in his players or are they just that good? Mike does have another ring as a OC but none as a HC so its hard to say if he was that good before. I guess my view is Mike should be kept, but things do need to change. Mike the GM needs to step down and Mike really needs to let his OC go coach college football. I like Kubes but its time to move on for him.

[bloodsunday]

Despite that however, I've said it before and I'll say it again: even the best coaches still need great players. I wonder if when Brady retires, Bellichick will be lambasted for not being able to win without him and people will mock the fact that he was called a 'mastermind' way back in old 2005.........
I agree with you. Unfortunately the world will probably never know. BB was forunate enough to get Brady at a time when their careers will likely be synonymous. Just like Walsh never had to experience NFL life without Montana, BB likely will never have to experience it without Brady.

But what about a guy like Bill Parcells or Joe Gibbs? How can they win without HoF QBs?

[DBroncos4life]

This is a fair point. However, its not like this team is void of talent. It's not like he hasn't had 7 years to figure it out.


The point is HOF QB's don't come around that often. As Nap pointed out teams do fire coaches after they lose their HOF QB. The fact is Mike has kept the ship together and has gotten us to the playoffs 3 times after Elway left. How many times has Dallas gone after Troy left? San Fran looks like a HS team after Young left. Everyone is going to have something to say, and how changes have to be made. Look at the Ravens. After their super bowl win they had to start over. Sure they made some good picks in the draft but is that team really any closer to winning the super bowl then us? That O is crappy man and they have a very good RB, TE, and OLine and it still can't get it done. It comes down to the play of the QB or lack there of. Samething with us. We go as far a Jake goes.

[bloodsunday]

That all depends on whether you believe that coach was instrumental in winning that Super Bowl or just lucky enough to be the one keeping the seat warm while Elway was busy making it happen....much like Phil Jackson being lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time with Jordan.
You'd have to be ingorant to believe that. First of all, Shanny was instrumental in bringing the FA here that made that team good. Secondly, Elway was 0 - 3 in the big game without Shanny as the Head Coach. Shanny played a part in those Super Bowls. So did Terrell Davis. So did a pretty damn good OL. So did a defense that complimented the offensive style we played.

Shanny the GM is what's killing this organization, IMHO. He had some major success bringing in talent his first couple of seasons and then the league caught up to him. The level of talent on this team has dropped and the quality of players we are bringing in is just not as high as it once was. Unfortunately for Denver fans, Shanny the GM and Shanny the Coach are linked and appear to be an all or nothing proposition. It's quite the quandry.

[watermock]

I'm just looking with a towel in my hands to wipe tears and cover my eyes at this point. I'm not willing to defend Denver about anything this week. I will not defend Shanahan, I will certainly not defende Kubiak, I won't defend Coyer, I win not, Sam I Am.

I will defend Rod Smith, Kyle Johnson, Putz and Saurbraun punting. Elam gets honorable mention for at least not muffing an easy kick. The rest can go to hell IMO. Gold seemed active, and Fergy was fighting.

Bailey was bringing it too. I shouldn't of forgotten him. Till he got hurt, he was playing lights out.

I'm not a happy camper.

[Hotrod]

Im still behind Shanny but I will say this "He does not scare anyone anymore" that could change but as of right now thats a fact.

[NaptownChief]

Its hard to say. Jackson has won without Jordan though but he has always had good teams around him. Does he bring out the best in his players or are they just that good? Mike does have another ring as a OC but none as a HC so its hard to say if he was that good before. I guess my view is Mike should be kept, but things do need to change. Mike the GM needs to step down and Mike really needs to let his OC go coach college football. I like Kubes but its time to move on for him.


Jackson moved on and won more rings after Jordan but only due to the status he had after getting all the rings with Jordan. That allowed him to sit out and cherry pick the perfect situation that had the games most dominate player at the moment. Things weren't very pretty in Chicago for Jackson when Jordan stepped away for retirment. He is definitely not a horrible coach as a horrible coach would find a way to lose even with the best team but his status and success had far more to do with luck and timing than anything else.

Personally getting rid of Shannaplan would only make sense if you had a top notch sure fire winner lined up and ready to step in like a Bill Bellichick or some other proven top notch winner. I think you guys could probably do better but you could certainly do much worse and wouldn't warrant the downside risk until you had something of a sure thing locked up.

[bloodsunday]

The point is HOF QB's don't come around that often. As Nap pointed out teams do fire coaches after they lose their HOF QB. The fact is Mike has kept the ship together and has gotten us to the playoffs 3 times after Elway left. How many times has Dallas gone after Troy left? San Fran looks like a HS team after Young left. Everyone is going to have something to say, and how changes have to be made. Look at the Ravens. After their super bowl win they had to start over. Sure they made some good picks in the draft but is that team really any closer to winning the super bowl then us? That O is crappy man and they have a very good RB, TE, and OLine and it still can't get it done. It comes down to the play of the QB or lack there of. Samething with us. We go as far a Jake goes.
I agree with you...BUT not every QB that wins a Super Bowl is a HoF. Not every team that wins a Super Bowl without a HoF is a defensive-oriented team either. The tasks is made more difficult, but it can be done. Griese and Plummer are hardly the bottom of the barrel when it comes to NFL QBs.

[bloodsunday]

Gold seemed active, and Fergy was fighting.
I saw Gold chasing a bunch of plays. I am starting to think he was a mistake.

Bailey was bringing it too. I shouldn't of forgotten him. Till he got hurt, he was playing lights out.
Bailey was the best player on the field for 2 quarters. I can't even imagine the stat line had he finished the game. He was playing like a 68 million dollar man, I'll give him that.

[watermock]

Aren't LB supposed to chase plays anyway?

[bloodsunday]

Aren't LB supposed to chase plays anyway?
I like my LB to make the play in the first place. Not an X and O guy like Mediator or SoCal, but he sure looks like his not holding his own out there to me. We could have kept Jayshon and let him chase the play. We paid Gold big $$$ to make plays.

[NaptownChief]

You'd have to be ingorant to believe that. First of all, Shanny was instrumental in bringing the FA here that made that team good. Secondly, Elway was 0 - 4 in the big game without Shanny as the Head Coach. Shanny played a part in those Super Bowls. So did Terrell Davis. So did a pretty damn good OL. So did a defense that complimented the offensive style we played.




If you want to get technical it is obvious that no 1 player can win a championship in a sport that requires 22 starters and 2 kickers. Obviously many play a "role" in winning a team sport but what you have to ask yourself is if the role they played was truly a difference maker that few others would have been able to do or could you have plugged in a decent number of competent people in that role and everything still worked out. I don't pretend to know that answer to that question as it could be either.

[watermock]

To hammer Gold is idiotic to say the least...he was all over the field early before the DL literally rolled belly up.

You can't leave your D on the field that is 120F.

[bloodsunday]

If you want to get technical it is obvious that no 1 player can win a championship in a sport that requires 22 starters and 2 kickers. Obviously many play a "role" in winning a team sport but what you have to ask yourself is if the role they played was truly a difference maker that few others would have been able to do or could you have plugged in a decent number of competent people in that role and everything still worked out. I don't pretend to know that answer to that question as it could be either and I haven't a clue.
Fair point. Shanny was the right coach for this organization at that time, no doubt. There are only a handful of coaches, IMO, that could have done what he did. Shanny was Elway's 3rd Head Coach, although Reeves was pretty damn good as well. I don't know the answer either, but I think Shanny was the missing ingredient. He came in here and turned it around pretty darn fast.

[DarkHorse30]

ROFL!

He looked HUGE on Sunday night. OMG.


PFT's rumour mill had an interesting take....

5. Corey Simon is the Stay-Puft Marshmallow Man.

Maybe it's because the Colts haven't had many wide bodies on defense lately, or maybe it's because he had plenty of time to pig out in the offseason, but seeing newly-signed defensive tackle Corey Simon in his all-whites on Sunday night conjured memories of the climactic scene from Ghostbusters.

http://www.profootballtalk.com/rumorm13.jpg http://www.profootballtalk.com/rumorm2.gif

http://www.profootballtalk.com/rumormill.html

[3P07]

I never liked Jason Whitlock. Screw him.

[NaptownChief]

To hammer Gold is idiotic to say the least...he was all over the field early before the DL literally rolled belly up.

You can't leave your D on the field that is 120F.



He was getting around....The number change had me dizzy...Kept thinking it was DJ then had to keep reminding myself it was Gold.

[NaptownChief]

PFT's rumour mill had an interesting take....


Simon definitely wasn't running any marathon's or wind sprints of substance during his time away from training camp that is for certain.

He was on the local sports talk show this week and said he was busy training in Tallahassee while he was out of camp...I'm guessing his training looked a lot like the college day 12 oz curls and extra large pizza toss.

[BRONCCRUSHFAN]

I get pissed at Shannahan because the whole "Mastermind" thing really fueled his ego. He talks about the players reading their press clippings..etc. and I sometimes wonder if he is doing the same. However, I have to say this, Elway went to 3 Super Bowls and basically got embarassed. Shanny got here and Elway won 2, so the whole "you believe that coach was instrumental in winning that Super Bowl or just lucky enough to be the one keeping the seat warm while Elway was busy making it happen" arguement doesn't hold water with me. Nappy, I could say that crybaby is nothing without Warner and Faulk. MPO is that Kubes needs to move on to the college ranks as a head coach, Dennison needs to go back to ST and bring in a new O-line coach, and Shanny give up the President of Football operations and GM positions he holds and concentrate on being the head coach that he is capable of. As far as Whitlock's assertion that Shanny is the same coach that couldn't win with the Fade, that team was just old and horrible to begin with. Funny how Art Shell started winning with the players that Shanny put in place.

[NaptownChief]

However, I have to say this, Elway went to 3 Super Bowls and basically got embarassed. Shanny got here and Elway won 2, so the whole "you believe that coach was instrumental in winning that Super Bowl or just lucky enough to be the one keeping the seat warm while Elway was busy making it happen" arguement doesn't hold water with me.


Different teams from different eras...The team around him changed and that could have been enough regardless of who was coaching. In a 5-10 year period every team cycles through some good, better and bad teams no matter who is coaching. I'm not arguing and saying Shanaplan had nothing to do with it as he could have had a ton to do with it but it is certainly possible that with Elway in place long enough the talent around him would naturally cycle through some good years and some lean years no matter who was coach and if you happened to be the coach that was in place during one of those good cycles you would reap the benefits even if you were an average to below average coach.

[Crushaholic]

LOL Fatass Whitlock making fun of someone's weight. Oh the irony.

No kidding. We could start in on the "Whitlock is so fat" jokes because that is how much this thread is worth (no offense to the thread starter). It's obvious he hasn't won without Elway, but I'd look to the assistant coaches before I would touch Shanahan. Our special teams, for instance, has been horrible in recent years. Our opponents would have a good head start because we can't get to the return man.

[Circle Orange]

They did say something about look at his thigs but my screen went white. Was that him???


LOL, that's funny!

His left and right hip don't even KNOW each other... ;D

[DBroncos4life]

I agree with you...BUT not every QB that wins a Super Bowl is a HoF. Not every team that wins a Super Bowl without a HoF is a defensive-oriented team either. The tasks is made more difficult, but it can be done. Griese and Plummer are hardly the bottom of the barrel when it comes to NFL QBs.


Only a hand full of QBs that won the super bowl are not HOF QBs. Williams and Dilfer are the only two that come to mind. Brady could quit next year and I think he goes to the HOF. I just remembered another one Warner, but it was pretty late in the game for him. Still he was great QB even if only for a few years.

[Broncoman13]

For those that disagree... ask yourself this: what do you think of Mike Holmgren's career?

I'll put it real simply... Mike Holmgren is a good coach but too many teams and coaches have "moved on" and are doing new things. You have to advance, look at Joe Gibbs!!! Honestly, I think of Holmgren as on his way out and the game has past him by. I'm sure that most outside of Denver look at Holmgren and Shanny in the same exact light!

[Rohirrim]

It seems odd to me that the argument is always "Elway & Shanny" and never includes Zimmerman and TD.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

It seems odd to me that the argument is always "Elway & Shanny" and never includes Zimmerman and TD.

I think that's probably because of Clinton Portis. The Denver running game didn't disappear when TD left.

[Circle Orange]

Is anyone shocked that we are having a hard time without Elway? Look how many QB's the Phins have gone through after Marino, now look at the Cowboys with Akiman and Staubach (sp). I'm pretty sure the Steelers had a hard time when Terry quit as well. Its not easy replacing a legend. I don't care who the coach is.


The Dolphins actually did better without Marino, and only bottomed out last season (4-12) Wannestadt wasn't much good, but the team had a winning record immediately post marino, even making playoffs (before getting blown out as usual). Unfortunately for Dan, the dolphins weren't exactly clamoring for him to come back 'one more year' unlike John.

As for the Cowboys without Aikman, well, they haven't replaced the other two components either. Running back (only recent) and wideout(s). The O line isn't the O line of Emmits day, either.

[DBroncos4life]

I'll put it real simply... Mike Holmgren is a good coach but too many teams and coaches have "moved on" and are doing new things. You have to advance, look at Joe Gibbs!!! Honestly, I think of Holmgren as on his way out and the game has past him by. I'm sure that most outside of Denver look at Holmgren and Shanny in the same exact light!


I don't think the game could pass you by while you are still playing. Holmgren made the mistake of wanting too much power. Had he stayed in GB there is a good chance he takes them to the SB atleast one more time. Gibbs on the other hand sat out a decade didn't he? Thats tough to comeback from no matter who the coach is. For the most part I think Holmgren has made the Seachickens a good team they just haven't been able to get over the hump to speak.

The biggest thing is the goals set by the fans. Some teams expect a new coach to take steps to improve each year, other fans expect to win the super bowl each year. Every teams fans has a different veiw on a good year. Take the Bengals vs us. 8-8 is a good stepping stone for them while 10-6 is a slap in the face for us.

[bendog]

I don't think the game could pass you by while you are still playing. Holmgren made the mistake of wanting too much power. Had he stayed in GB there is a good chance he takes them to the SB atleast one more time. Gibbs on the other hand sat out a decade didn't he? Thats tough to comeback from no matter who the coach is. For the most part I think Holmgren has made the Seachickens a good team they just haven't been able to get over the hump to speak.

The biggest thing is the goals set by the fans. Some teams expect a new coach to take steps to improve each year, other fans expect to win the super bowl each year. Every teams fans has a different veiw on a good year. Take the Bengals vs us. 8-8 is a good stepping stone for them while 10-6 is a slap in the face for us.
Holmgren had Wolf in GB too.

[bloodsunday]

Every teams fans has a different veiw on a good year. Take the Bengals vs us. 8-8 is a good stepping stone for them while 10-6 is a slap in the face for us.
I hear what you are saying and for the most part I agree. But you just can't look at it in isolation. This team has been in the 8 - 8 to 10 - 6 range for 5 consecutive years. It's not that no one thinks 10 - 6 is a good season, but shouldn't the next season be 11 - 5 and a Division title? The team has the same chinks in the armour and finishes with the same disappointing pattern -- start hot, finish cold. It's frustrating to feel that you are so close and yet not make any progress the next season.

I would doubt that Bengal fans would be happy with a 3rd consecutive 8 - 8 season, let alone 5 of them. They are starting to get optimistic that this team is close.

[DBroncos4life]

I hear what you are saying and for the most part I agree. But you just can't look at it in isolation. This team has been in the 8 - 8 to 10 - 6 range for 5 consecutive years. It's not that no one thinks 10 - 6 is a good season, but shouldn't the next season be 11 - 5 and a Division title? The team has the same chinks in the armour and finishes with the same disappointing pattern -- start hot, finish cold. It's frustrating to feel that you are so close and yet not make any progress the next season.

I would doubt that Bengal fans would be happy with a 3rd consecutive 8 - 8 season, let alone 5 of them. They are starting to get optimistic that this team is close.


Well I guess we will find out. If they don't improve we will see if they can Lewis. My guess is they won't because he is a damn good coach. Still they won 6 games in 01, 2 in 02, 8 in 03 and 8 again in 04. Lewis has been there for the last two 8 and 8 seasons. Many fans wanted more after the first 8 and 8 season.

As far as our team goes maybe we should be doing better maybe not. Lots of people think Plummer is trash but its hard to argue with two straight playoff trips even if we did get killed during those games. This year things should be better but if they aren't I wouldn't fire Mike over it. Changes should be made but it shouldn't be to the whole coaching staff.

[Pat Bowlen]

Holmgren had Wolf in GB too.
We had some really good assistants during the Super Bowl years, too.

[orinjkrush]

if not shanny, who?
look at all the college coaches who fail. look at all the OCs and DCs that fail.
If not shanny, who?

[Crushaholic]

I think that's probably because of Clinton Portis. The Denver running game didn't disappear when TD left.

The running game didn't disappear, but we haven't had a lineman like Zimmerman since the Elway days. That certainly would have an effect on the passing game.

[Crushisback]

How many Steelers fans do you suppose wanted to shed Bill Cowher in the late 90's and 01 and 02. Now he has returned them to a power house and they praise him.

My point is that the NFL goes through cycles, NFC dominates for a 10-15 years then the AFC dominates. Right now we are in an extremley tough conference and don't have what it takes to get over the hump.

I think if anything we need to spend a year or two rebuilding like every SB champ eventually has to do. We have become the Rams of the AFC eerrrr the Rams became the Broncos of the NFC.

Time to spend an offseason dumping salaries not adding them.

[westcliffe]

Originally posted by bloodsunday
Shanny the GM is what's killing this organization, IMHO. He had some major success bringing in talent his first couple of seasons and then the league caught up to him. The level of talent on this team has dropped and the quality of players we are bringing in is just not as high as it once was. Unfortunately for Denver fans, Shanny the GM and Shanny the Coach are linked and appear to be an all or nothing proposition. It's quite the quandry.


I couldn't agree more. I have been saying this to friends for two years or so now. I don't think Bowlen would ever pull the GM gig away from Shanahan, and I don't think that Shanny will voluntarily give it up. He is a good coach, but needs to spend more time coaching and let someone else make the personell decisions.

[DBroncos4life]

How many Steelers fans do you suppose wanted to shed Bill Cowher in the late 90's and 01 and 02. Now he has returned them to a power house and they praise him.

My point is that the NFL goes through cycles, NFC dominates for a 10-15 years then the AFC dominates. Right now we are in an extremley tough conference and don't have what it takes to get over the hump.

I think if anything we need to spend a year or two rebuilding like every SB champ eventually has to do. We have become the Rams of the AFC eerrrr the Rams became the Broncos of the NFC.

Time to spend an offseason dumping salaries not adding them.


I got to question how dumping salaries is going to help us at all. I can see not over paying for players like we did this offseason...well there was Gold...

[Old Dude]

We're only one game into the season.

[DBroncos4life]

We're only one game into the season.


its over. Ha!

[ZachKC]

heh

[Rock Chalk]

Who cares what Whitlock says.

[bendog]

I got to question how dumping salaries is going to help us at all. I can see not over paying for players like we did this offseason...well there was Gold...
Clev's carrying the cap for the dline. If Jake sucks again and we have a shot at Linehart or somebody, we may be cutting cap. But most likely we dump Brown and Ebeanazor/TP, and add a rook Dlineman and some other position. And yeah, Gold instead of Wahle/demulling was a critical mistake.

[NaptownChief]

How many Steelers fans do you suppose wanted to shed Bill Cowher in the late 90's and 01 and 02. Now he has returned them to a power house and they praise him.




Very interesting comparison....Cowher also nearly got himself canned due to gross loyalty to a very erratic QB.

[yavoon]

Jackson moved on and won more rings after Jordan but only due to the status he had after getting all the rings with Jordan. That allowed him to sit out and cherry pick the perfect situation that had the games most dominate player at the moment. Things weren't very pretty in Chicago for Jackson when Jordan stepped away for retirment. He is definitely not a horrible coach as a horrible coach would find a way to lose even with the best team but his status and success had far more to do with luck and timing than anything else.

Personally getting rid of Shannaplan would only make sense if you had a top notch sure fire winner lined up and ready to step in like a Bill Bellichick or some other proven top notch winner. I think you guys could probably do better but you could certainly do much worse and wouldn't warrant the downside risk until you had something of a sure thing locked up.

even if shannahan is ok I think overall the coaching staff is at best average. as long as shanny is here kubes is here and hell maybe even coyer. and I like neither. shanny has shown very little dynamism, and of course the drafting woes are largely due to shanny too. its great even if u consider shanny a good head coach but how many other defficiencies does the team have for the pure reason of "keeping shanny"

[elsid13]

I amazed that Marty and Crymail are consider some of the best coaches in league and both have one good year in last 5. While Shanahan has had one season without a winning record (when he started a rookie QB) and he suck. Everyone needs to get over this crap about the opener, since the only ones enjoy the loss are those who are jealous of the success we had in Denver. Most of the national media find Shannahan personality annoying because of his attitude, so what, they don't have to be his friend they only have report the truth.

I kind of glad it happen, because now the team rally around itself and bound, because no think they have chance outside those in that locker room.

[NaptownChief]

even if shannahan is ok I think overall the coaching staff is at best average. as long as shanny is here kubes is here and hell maybe even coyer. and I like neither. shanny has shown very little dynamism, and of course the drafting woes are largely due to shanny too. its great even if u consider shanny a good head coach but how many other defficiencies does the team have for the pure reason of "keeping shanny"



$hit canning Rat as GM and bringing in a good talent evaluator at GM would probably go a long way in righting the ship. The number of recent early round Denver draft picks that were waived during cut down days was amazing. The Chiefs have been very poor with the likes of Freeman, Downing, Minnis and probably soon to be Siavii and Sims but the Donks have been as bad or worse. You can be a great coach and you will still eventually get killed if you aren't getting much out of the first 4 rounds of the draft.

[DBroncos4life]

Clev's carrying the cap for the dline. If Jake sucks again and we have a shot at Linehart or somebody, we may be cutting cap. But most likely we dump Brown and Ebeanazor/TP, and add a rook Dlineman and some other position. And yeah, Gold instead of Wahle/demulling was a critical mistake.


Both Wahle and Demulling signed for a base salary of a 1 million bucks this year. Golds is just over half that at 540K. From what I understand Golds bonus is back loaded so I don't think he will make over a mill this year. The Gold signing did little to tie our hands this year (I think) but it does make it harder in years to come.

[TerrElway]

You'd have to be ingorant to believe that. First of all, Shanny was instrumental in bringing the FA here that made that team good. Secondly, Elway was 0 - 3 in the big game without Shanny as the Head Coach. Shanny played a part in those Super Bowls. So did Terrell Davis. So did a pretty damn good OL. So did a defense that complimented the offensive style we played.

Shanny the GM is what's killing this organization, IMHO. He had some major success bringing in talent his first couple of seasons and then the league caught up to him. The level of talent on this team has dropped and the quality of players we are bringing in is just not as high as it once was. Unfortunately for Denver fans, Shanny the GM and Shanny the Coach are linked and appear to be an all or nothing proposition. It's quite the quandry.

More precisely, Shanny the Draft Day GM. IMO he's made 3 good moves for every one bad one in free agency, it's just that the bad ones are all high profile (IHOP, meet Dale Carter). It's draft day that has killed this team. No good young players in a (relatively) inexpensive rookie contract developing into young studs (DJ and Darrent notwithstanding) so you have to go out and plug more and more holes with high priced veteran FA "talent", further tying your hands when it comes to the cap.

Also, the further you get from the ring, the harder it is to entice those good FA's when the money is similar elsewhere. I think that may have something to do with a decline in the FA quality that comes to this team.

I think this team lacks the nastiness on offense, especially up front, that they had when Zim and Stink and T-Bone were here. That bunch wouldn't piss on your face if your teeth were on fire. This current bunch? Sure they can all kick my fat little ass but I don't get that sense of nasty from them and they seem to shrink when playing a "punch you in the mouth" defense.

I'd like to see a return to the nasty days of yore.

I also have serious reservations about the rest of his staff outside of Bobby Turner. Kubes needs to put down the Playstation and step away and Coyer hasn't won me over yet. That D had gaudy numbers last year but little things like getting off the field on third down, preventing redzone TD's and turnovers (okay those things aren't so little) are killing them when it counts the past couple of years.

Here's to hoping that week one was the one game the Bronx play every year where they suck beyond all comprehension. Better to get it out of the way now than in December with a home playoff berth on the line.

:Broncos:

[Merlin]

That D had gaudy numbers last year but little things like getting off the field on third down, preventing redzone TD's and turnovers (okay those things aren't so little) are killing them when it counts the past couple of years.
Talk about parroting a bunch of BS. Here are the facts regarding third downs and redzone TDs.

1. The Broncos defense was second in the league last year in third down conversion percentage. Are you pissed because they were not #1 ???

2. The Broncos defensively were 9th in RZ TD percentage. Not the best, but not too shabby either.

3. Last but not least, Pittsburgh was the only team whose defense was better at keeping the offense on the field in the league (i.e. Denver's defense was second in the league).

The above notwithstanding, their turnovers did stink.

Merlin

[azbroncfan]

Corey Simon did look massive.
You can call Simon anything you want but late for dinner. :pity: That guy looked like he was going to eat himself out of the league.

[Old Dude]

If we win Sunday, Shanny will be a genius again.

And Shotty will be an idiot.

And all will be right with the world once more.

[ZachKC]

You can call Simon anything you want but late for dinner. :pity: That guy looked like he was going to eat himself out of the league.
Yup, not interested in him for my team.

[gunns]

I couldn't agree more. I have been saying this to friends for two years or so now. I don't think Bowlen would ever pull the GM gig away from Shanahan, and I don't think that Shanny will voluntarily give it up. He is a good coach, but needs to spend more time coaching and let someone else make the personell decisions.

I disagree. I think Bowlen will make changes even if we do make the playoffs and do one and done again. And I think that's exactly what he'll do is pull the GM duties from Shanahan. If Shanahan resists that I think Bowlen will say goodbye. This is about business and the mighty buck, not friendship.

[Rohirrim]

Bobby Turner might like a shot at the OC job. He seems to know a lot about RBs (Clairette excluded). Maybe he knows a lot about running attacks as well. And Olines. Whatever. I just believe STRONGLY that new blood is needed in the Broncos offensive game plan.

[footstepsfrom#27]

How many Steelers fans do you suppose wanted to shed Bill Cowher in the late 90's and 01 and 02. Now he has returned them to a power house and they praise him.

My point is that the NFL goes through cycles, NFC dominates for a 10-15 years then the AFC dominates. Right now we are in an extremley tough conference and don't have what it takes to get over the hump.

I think if anything we need to spend a year or two rebuilding like every SB champ eventually has to do. We have become the Rams of the AFC eerrrr the Rams became the Broncos of the NFC.

Time to spend an offseason dumping salaries not adding them.
This is a good point. This team has never gone through the true rebuilding process of tearing it down and starting from the ground up again. We've tried to forestall the inevitable by bringing in free agents but the young talent that we needed to builld on has not been added. Specifically in the offensivve and defensive lines, we have tried to plug in older guys as short term solutions. The exception MIGHT be the Browncos additions if Warren makes it big. He's the key. Brown, Myers and Ekuban are gravy if they pan out. Philosophically however, we still need a major youth movement that isn't geared just toward pluging holes, but rebuilding the foundations. Oddly, Shanahan is in a unique position to do this since Bowlen's basically said he's here for life. Most NFL coaches have no choice but to win now, since not doing so means they'll get fired. I don't understand why Mike doesn't use his security with Bowlen to bite the bullet and truly rebuild instead of patcing things with jerry rigged solutions.

[DBroncos4life]

This is a good point. This team has never gone through the true rebuilding process of tearing it down and starting from the ground up again. We've tried to forestall the inevitable by bringing in free agents but the young talent that we needed to builld on has not been added. Specifically in the offensivve and defensive lines, we have tried to plug in older guys as short term solutions. The exception MIGHT be the Browncos additions if Warren makes it big. He's the key. Brown, Myers and Ekuban are gravy if they pan out. Philosophically however, we still need a major youth movement that isn't geared just toward pluging holes, but rebuilding the foundations. Oddly, Shanahan is in a unique position to do this since Bowlen's basically said he's here for life. Most NFL coaches have no choice but to win now, since not doing so means they'll get fired. I don't understand why Mike doesn't use his security with Bowlen to bite the bullet and truly rebuild instead of patcing things with jerry rigged solutions.


Do you have any idea how long it takes to rebuild in the NFL? Look at the Ravens for god sake. They are no closer now then when they started.

[Circle Orange]

The main difference between Cowher and Shanahan now is that Cowher's teams keep losing AFC titles at home, while Shanahan's teams keep flaming out in the wild card round. He clearly looks tighter and more stressed these days. Even his expressions on the sidelines don't have the swagger anymore, he looks really grim. Pull out an old tape and you'll see the difference.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

All those fake tans are catching up to him.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Do you have any idea how long it takes to rebuild in the NFL? Look at the Ravens for god sake. They are no closer now then when they started.
The longer you wait, the longer it takes. Actually I think you can rebuild in 3 years if you stockpile draft picks by trading vets, use the free agency avenue intelligently and have a clear plan you don't deviate from. The alternative appears to be finishing 10-6 every year and exiting in the first round of the playoffs.

[-Slap-]

Very interesting comparison....Cowher also nearly got himself canned due to gross loyalty to a very erratic QB.
Oh, balls. Cowher stuck with Kordell Stewart because he thought that was his best option. The other QBs on the roster in those years were Mike Tomczak and Kent Graham.

Anybody accusing Bill Cowher of loyalty didn't watch that guy scapegoat and fire a succession of OCs during that previously mentioned rough stretch.

[watermock]

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/image.php?u=1851&dateline=1126828319

Almost Gayest Avater...ever...you boys competing?

[DBroncos4life]

The longer you wait, the longer it takes. Actually I think you can rebuild in 3 years if you stockpile draft picks by trading vets, use the free agency avenue intelligently and have a clear plan you don't deviate from. The alternative appears to be finishing 10-6 every year and exiting in the first round of the playoffs.


yeah and if that doesn't happen then 4-12 for the next three years will. The draft isn't always the best way to build a team as well. At the time you think you get a guy that can lead the team and poof three years later he still sucks. See Boller. I would rather go with the 10-6 and see what kind of breaks we can get then **** canning the team and trying to start over again.

[ro_50]

Did Corey Simon also eat Shawn Kemp as well?

[DBroncos4life]

If we make any change I would like very much that we find away to run a form of the 3-4. While I don't want it to be the base D I would love for us to be able to move in and out of it like the Pats do. The best way to keep the O off guard would be being able to do that.

[Northman]

Did Corey Simon also eat Shawn Kemp as well?


I dont know, but i could have sworn i saw the ' Fridge ' Perry being packed in there somewhere.

[Circle Orange]

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/image.php?u=1851&dateline=1126828319

Almost Gayest Avater...ever...you boys competing?

For the MILLIONTH time, Mock...get it right. I'm a girl. Uhh

[Maximus]

if not shanny, who?
look at all the college coaches who fail. look at all the OCs and DCs that fail.
If not shanny, who?

Kubiak! He's calling the plays right?

[NaptownChief]

Oh, balls. Cowher stuck with Kordell Stewart because he thought that was his best option. The other QBs on the roster in those years were Mike Tomczak and Kent Graham.

Anybody accusing Bill Cowher of loyalty didn't watch that guy scapegoat and fire a succession of OCs during that previously mentioned rough stretch.


Whether it was loyalty or just pitiful player analysis either way he nearly got his ass canned for sticking with him so long. Kent Graham and Mike Tomczak weren't great alternatives but he had several years to go out and get a better alternative and refused to do so....so much so they gave Krydell a pretty lucrative new contract in the middle of those struggles.

[watermock]

For the MILLIONTH time, Mock...get it right. I'm a girl. Uhh

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/image.php?u=1851&dateline=1126828319

Doesn't make one bit less gay. Just makes you seem odd. It's actually even more disturbing.

[CBF1]

I do not know who this writer is, But I do agree with him.

[BRONCCRUSHFAN]

Oh dear lord, is this where we as Bronco fans have gotten to.

[-Slap-]

Whether it was loyalty or just pitiful player analysis either way he nearly got his ass canned for sticking with him so long. Kent Graham and Mike Tomczak weren't great alternatives but he had several years to go out and get a better alternative and refused to do so....so much so they gave Krydell a pretty lucrative new contract in the middle of those struggles.

They gave him that contract after the 1997 season when he took Pittsburgh to the AFC Championship Game and Slash Nike commercials were ubiquitous.

Kordell Stewart
Quarterback
Born: 1972
1-time Pro Bowler: 2001

+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| Passing | Rushing |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| Year TM | G | Comp Att PCT YD Y/A TD INT | Att Yards TD |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| 1995 pit | 10 | 5 7 71.4 60 8.6 1 0 | 15 86 1 |
| 1996 pit | 16 | 11 30 36.7 100 3.3 0 2 | 39 171 5 |
| 1997 pit | 16 | 236 440 53.6 3020 6.9 21 17 | 88 476 11 |
| 1998 pit | 16 | 252 458 55.0 2560 5.6 11 18 | 81 406 2 |
| 1999 pit | 16 | 160 275 58.2 1464 5.3 6 10 | 56 258 2 |
| 2000 pit | 16 | 151 289 52.2 1860 6.4 11 8 | 78 436 7 |
| 2001 pit | 16 | 266 442 60.2 3109 7.0 14 11 | 96 537 5 |
| 2002 pit | 8 | 109 166 65.7 1155 7.0 6 6 | 43 191 2 |
| 2003 chi | 9 | 126 251 50.2 1418 5.6 7 12 | 59 290 3 |
| 2004 bal | 2 | 0 0 0.0 0 0.0 0 0 | 1 -1 0 |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| TOTAL | 125 | 1316 2358 55.8 14746 6.3 77 84 | 556 2850 38 |

[NaptownChief]

They gave him that contract after the 1997 season when he took Pittsburgh to the AFC Championship Game and Slash Nike commercials were ubiquitous.




Is that when he got the $8.2 million signing bonus? Seemed like they either gave him a new contract or at least were talking about a new extension around 2002 even after sucking for a good while.

[-Slap-]

Is that when he got the $8.2 million signing bonus? Seemed like they either gave him a new contract or at least were talking about a new extension around 2002 even after sucking for a good while.
Don't know why a frugal organization like the Steelers would be talking about that kind of money for a backup QB. They were in the process of steering him out of town in favor of Tommy Maddox by that point.

[Circle Orange]

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/image.php?u=1851&dateline=1126828319

Doesn't make one bit less gay. Just makes you seem odd. It's actually even more disturbing.

You've forgotten about the protest, then. But I digress. Rumor has it Kordell Stewart will play for the Ravens now that Boller may be out indefinately. Or at least his agent was contacted, the rumor mill has it.

[wabbit]

Back on subject...no one seems to have mentioned that Shanahan held his shortest press conference ever Wednesday...roughly five minutes...ignoring questions as he left the room.

I don't know about the gaunt, sunken eyes thing, but I took time off important work to arrange travel, gather my equipment, set it up, read the press releases and wait for his sacred word.

If he can't be bothered to answer a few sports questions...I really can't be bothered to hear the little he has to say.

[24champ]

Back on subject...no one seems to have mentioned that Shanahan held his shortest press conference ever Wednesday...roughly five minutes...ignoring questions as he left the room.

I don't know about the gaunt, sunken eyes thing, but I took time off important work to arrange travel, gather my equipment, set it up, read the press releases and wait for his sacred word.

If he can't be bothered to answer a few sports questions...I really can't be bothered to hear the little he has to say.

maybe he has better things to do like get this team ready for sunday???

[wabbit]

maybe he has better things to do like get this team ready for sunday???

Well, you know what; Shanahan has held Wednesday...sometimes Tuesday, and once even on a Monday when the Broncos played a Thanksgiving game...press conferences since his first year here.

While preparation of the team is, naturally, his first & highest priority, Wednesday is the make-it-or-break-it day for players with injuries, as well as the days after he has broken down the tape from the last game...giving the press some insight into what happened & what to expect the coming weekend.

If nothing else, it keeps the team in the news, something Pat Bowlen is rather interested in doing.

Apparently, this no longer applies, or is of any real importance.

[ludo21]

Well, you know what; Shanahan has held Wednesday...sometimes Tuesday, and once even on a Monday when the Broncos played a Thanksgiving game...press conferences since his first year here.

While preparation of the team is, naturally, his first & highest priority, Wednesday is the make-it-or-break-it day for players with injuries, as well as the days after he has broken down the tape from the last game...giving the press some insight into what happened & what to expect the coming weekend.

If nothing else, it keeps the team in the news, something Pat Bowlen is rather interested in doing.

Apparently, this no longer applies, or is of any real importance.

i think its more Shanny is real focused this week. But im not much of a press guru so i really have no clue. But by the look of Shanny he just looks determined to not f-up this weekend. :unamused:

[wabbit]

i think its more Shanny is real focused this week. But im not much of a press guru so i really have no clue. But by the look of Shanny he just looks determined to not f-up this weekend. :unamused:

That is a very positive & constructive way to look at it Ludo...good thinking.

[Cito Pelon]

Where Shanny is concerned, I can argue both ways.

Obviously, he's a super-deuper HC/GM, because his teams are always competing for a Div title and a playoff spot. Not easy to accomplish that.

On the other hand, Shanny comes up short of the Div title and a playoff win too often, with a pretty good roster.

So I figure we'll have to see how it works out this year. And if it doesn't work out, then I'd like to see some changes in the assistant staff at least. It isn't all Shanny after all on gameday. Somehow or other in Shanny's best years the team played as a team on gameday, and they also had 4 assistants that have gone on to have pretty good resumes since then - Heimerdinger, Dorrell, Robinson, Donatell. Those turned out to be pretty big shoes to fill, and it is still not decided if the shoes have been filled. So we have to wait and see how the next 15 games play out.

A question I have that has been bugging me is why does Den have 2 DL coaches, one for the DT's, and one for the DE's (Burney and Patterson)? And 2 DB coaches (Spencer and Slowik). Is this typical for an NFL D?

[wabbit]

...A question I have that has been bugging me is why does Den have 2 DL coaches, one for the DT's, and one for the DE's (Burney and Patterson)? And 2 DB coaches (Spencer and Slowik). Is this typical for an NFL D?

As I understand it, the situation with Burney is a contract situation, and a rather sticky one at that.

I was very surprised Burney wasn't released after the 2004 season AND a blow-up with Coyer.

Regardless, Patterson is THE guy along the D-line, especially when it comes to push & shove...and it might

[sirhcyennek81]

next on as the NFL turns...Shanahan kidnaps belichik....*que bad music

[footstepsfrom#27]

yeah and if that doesn't happen then 4-12 for the next three years will. The draft isn't always the best way to build a team as well.
I beg to differ. The draft is always the best way to build a team. How was our core built in the Superbowl years? The draft. How were the Jimmy Johnson era Cowboys built? The draft. How have the Patriots been built? The draft. Free agency can plug holes but the core has to be built on young players you draft and grow with. Going 4-12 for three years and being a powerhouse team again is preferable to what we've seen the last few years.
At the time you think you get a guy that can lead the team and poof three years later he still sucks. See Boller.
How 'bout, "see Plummer" instead...since this is his third year and based on what we've seen so far, he's the same player he was. Has it crossed your mind that Plummer is 30 going on 31? If we drafted a young guy this year and it took him two years to be a servicable QB, 3 to be good...by that time Jake is 34, which means he's got maybe two years left at best. We have a three year window to win the Superbowl with him. If we fail to draft our next franchise QB during that time, we'll be signing another castoff when he retires, and the cycle continues...mired in mediocrity.

Maybe Frerotte will be available by then. :kiddingme

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Sounds like Shamaplan is LOSING IT! :laugh:

[Spider]

Sounds like Shamaplan is LOSING IT! :laugh:
I guess chief fan would know , after all you do have Goonther as a head coach expiernce to reference from .remember when the Chiefs quit on Goonther ?

[ol number 7]

Its hard to say. Jackson has won without Jordan though but he has always had good teams around him. Does he bring out the best in his players or are they just that good? Mike does have another ring as a OC but none as a HC so its hard to say if he was that good before. I guess my view is Mike should be kept, but things do need to change. Mike the GM needs to step down and Mike really needs to let his OC go coach college football. I like Kubes but its time to move on for him.

Doesn't it seem like they were holding alot back in the Miami game. Red zone they used maybe three plays; all conservative, no reverses or anything. For a coach that preaches one game at a time, I think they were looking ahead to the Chargers and Chiefs games coming up.

[NaptownChief]

i think its more Shanny is real focused this week. But im not much of a press guru so i really have no clue. But by the look of Shanny he just looks determined to not f-up this weekend. :unamused:



I'm guessing he is embarrassed and doesn't want to hear anymore about the opening game. Especially after an off-season of some very bizarre personnel decisions.

He shouldn't turn on the local Denver media cause they are the only ones that defending him and drinking his punch.

[Mediator12]

I'm guessing he is embarrassed and doesn't want to hear anymore about the opening game. Especially after an off-season of some very bizarre personnel decisions.

He shouldn't turn on the local Denver media cause they are the only ones that defending him and drinking his punch.

Yeah, but the national criticisms have been flat out wrong in their Analysis Nap. The Browncos, minus Ekuban, Played very well in that game. It was Lenny Walls, Lelie, Plummer and Others the Sucked it up.

They are only superficial in their Pathetic Analysis. Does that mean the Broncos did Not stink up the joint, Hell No. But the analysis was about as bad as the Intel on Iraq's Weapons of mass Destruction capabilities.

[bloodsunday]

Back on subject...no one seems to have mentioned that Shanahan held his shortest press conference ever Wednesday...roughly five minutes...ignoring questions as he left the room.

I don't know about the gaunt, sunken eyes thing, but I took time off important work to arrange travel, gather my equipment, set it up, read the press releases and wait for his sacred word.

If he can't be bothered to answer a few sports questions...I really can't be bothered to hear the little he has to say.
You know Wabbit, I think the act is starting wear thin on everyone.

I listened to several of the press conferences and player interviews (on 850 and 950) and I am dumbfounded by the lack of passion displayed by these guys. You just hear so many cliches "Its a 16 round fight", "If you do X, You got a chance to do something special", "Half the teams lost in week 1". While all of that is true, the expectations are much higher than that. I mean half the teams didn't come out and play like a JV team. I wonder if this team isn't having trouble understanding Shanahan's passion and drive because of his damenor.

[bloodsunday]

yeah and if that doesn't happen then 4-12 for the next three years will. The draft isn't always the best way to build a team as well. At the time you think you get a guy that can lead the team and poof three years later he still sucks. See Boller.
A good team uses the draft and FA as compliments when building a team. We have been using both to fill holes and knee-jerk reactions to the belief that we are only one or two players away from a SuperBowl. Overtime it becomes very costly to build a team via FA if your draft is failing you.

This team is not void of talent, just at certain, critical positions. A good personnel man could probably make this roster a winner in a season or two. We are not as bad off as a team like Arizona or Cleveland when they began turn arounds.

I would rather go with the 10-6 and see what kind of breaks we can get then **** canning the team and trying to start over again.
There is nothing wrong with that. Personally, I have grown tired of seeing the same soft, playmaking inept team on the field every season. I am ready for a change, even if that changes comes with the possibility of a down year.

[bloodsunday]

Yeah, but the national criticisms have been flat out wrong in their Analysis Nap. The Browncos, minus Ekuban, Played very well in that game. It was Lenny Walls, Lelie, Plummer and Others the Sucked it up.

They are only superficial in their Pathetic Analysis. Does that mean the Broncos did Not stink up the joint, Hell No. But the analysis was about as bad as the Intel on Iraq's Weapons of mass Destruction capabilities.
Yeah I have been happy with Browncos as a SHORT TERM solution. The problem is that we are likely to be without at least two of them next season, meaning we'll be left plugging those holes again next year. Trevor's situation looks dicey as well. This team needs continuity, IMO.

[Mediator12]

Yeah I have been happy with Browncos as a SHORT TERM solution. The problem is that we are likely to be without at least two of them next season, meaning we'll be left plugging those holes again next year. Trevor's situation looks dicey as well. This team needs continuity, IMO.

Right now they could drop Ekuban and bring back Palepoi IMHO. He is younger and Cheaper and could not have screwed up any worse than Ekuban did v. Miami.

Brown is a Wild Card and it will take a full season evaluation to determine his Value. Warren is going to be the only one that Potentially could be hard to resign for Value. However, any more losses like that and His FA value will diminish immensely. Myers is locked up for the long haul and Was flat out Outstanding versus the Run Last week.

So, the only real potential loss would be Warren. I still think DT in the First Would be outstanding in next years Draft. Problem is we need other things even worse for those two picks.

[Circle Orange]

I think Shanahan also realizes this is a pivotal season, more so than before. With the competition in the AFC a slow start could make for a long year, and affect franchise decisions for next year. The first month is usuall pretty erratic around the league anyway. One of the complaints is that teams aren't playing their starters much in preseason, so they go into the regular season 'cold' only having played 1 1/2 qtrs of real contact ball. There was a record in penalites week one (over 420) insane by any standards. A LOT of sloppy play everywhere.

[bloodsunday]

So, the only real potential loss would be Warren. I still think DT in the First Would be outstanding in next years Draft. Problem is we need other things even worse for those two picks.
Well Warren stands to be the only contributor that we lose. But, we invested in all 4 of them. If nothing else that's 2 or 3 other roster spots that could be occupied by younger guys that can contribute next year and years to come, adding to the continuity of the team. That's kind of my point. I am not saying the Browncos are a disappointment, I am saying that we paid for all 4 of them and next year we are going to have to pay to replace at least 2 of them. Roster churn is starting to be a real problem for this team, IMO.

[bloodsunday]

I think Shanahan also realizes this is a pivotal season, more so than before.
I haven't seen anything that suggests his urgency is any different this year than last. Picking Mo was an indication that he feels comfortable with his status in this organization, IMO.

With the competition in the AFC a slow start could make for a long year, and affect franchise decisions for next year.
Especially because the MO of this team is to start hot. A slow start would most likely result in a poor season.

The first month is usuall pretty erratic around the league anyway. One of the complaints is that teams aren't playing their starters much in preseason, so they go into the regular season 'cold' only having played 1 1/2 qtrs of real contact ball. There was a record in penalites week one (over 420) insane by any standards. A LOT of sloppy play everywhere.
This is a very, very good point. If this bad game had happened in isolation, I would not be so concerned. But when you put it into the context of how this team has played over the past 5 years, its eerily similar. Stop the run, the offense is done. It's just about that simple. Poor third down conversions (on both sides of the ball), poor redzone offense, average special teams... we've seen this before. That's what worries me.

When I consider the ease with which teams are now able to stop our run game (and the effects it has on our entire offense) and then I look the defenses we play this year (Jville, Baltimore, Buffalo, NE, Philly, San Diego), I get really worried.

[NaptownChief]

Well Warren stands to be the only contributor that we lose.


Good chance he will get Ryan Sims roster spot and money with the Chiefs given Peterson's penchant for grabbing player within the division.

[ScottXray]

I think a lot of it is that Shanahan designed the system to take advantage of Elways strengths and supplement that with the running game that had been missing. Result...TWO superbowl wins. That was good coaching, but also happened because he was intimately familiar with Elway already.

Since Elway left Shanny has been trying to find another QB with his skills....and failed. In the meantime he hasn't changed the system or recognized that the skills of a lot of the players is not at the same level. He really is failing to use what he has, and adjusting to the changes in the game and players. A bad season will inevitably result at some point. It may be this year...and maybe not.

If he doesn't wake up and start changing the SYSTEM to match the players skills, instead of trying to find CHEAP players to match the system (because we don't play bad enough to get HIGH drafts) then we'll be perpetually in the .500 % range. That's mediocre coaching. It never really improves the team.

He's still a coach that will get wins. But his refusal to adjust loses games too. If Bowlen gets tired of the teams inability to improve THEN Shanahan will be on thin ice. I expect that if we fail to improve, or miss the playoffs this year someone {Kubiak and or Coyer} will be offerred up as the sacrificial lamb. Shanny will get at least two years to improve .

With the draft choices we have this year we have a chance to rebuild the core of this team. If shanny doesn't use them effectively we will have a long dry spell, and he will get fired. If he does we will get back to an elite level.

It could be the PLAN is a LONG term one. :dunk:

[fontaine]

Shanahan has changed his passing schemes.

With Griese the focus was on getting the ball to Eddie/Rod and Letting the running game batter away at the interior. Griese wasn't mobile enough so there were almost no rollouts, bootlegs. Griese didn't like the Shotgun formation so it was hardly used.

With Plummer, in his first season, Shanahan immediately recognized he was a better passer of the ball when using his mobility so more of those kind of plays were involved rather than the Griese ones where he went to two/three progressions in the pocket. In the meantime, more of the passing game was geared towards the TE rather than the 2nd WR since Lelie didn't show much.

Sorry if that post sounded kinda vague but I'm not privvy to all the X's and O's so it was more observational over long periods than specific playcalling in games.

[bendog]

yeah, shanny evolved post elway. We actually threw MORE. Then he changed again with Jake. As for the press conference, it's sort of a joke. OK, Ebenaeaer sucked and played dumb. The secodanry didn't tacle for ****. Jake missed the TEs who were supposed to be open all day, and who prolly were. We dropped balls. Our guards are smaller than fullbacks. We got gassed in Miami. Anything else? Didn't think so. Cokes are in the back of the room. Later.

[Mediator12]

yeah, shanny evolved post elway. We actually threw MORE. Then he changed again with Jake. As for the press conference, it's sort of a joke. OK, Ebenaeaer sucked and played dumb. The secodanry didn't tacle for ****. Jake missed the TEs who were supposed to be open all day, and who prolly were. We dropped balls. Our guards are smaller than fullbacks. We got gassed in Miami. Anything else? Didn't think so. Cokes are in the back of the room. Later.

That is just about right! You only Forgot that billy was calling the Redzone plays for Mike and this will change next week.

[Mile High Shack]

That is just about right! You only Forgot that billy was calling the Redzone plays for Mike and this will change next week.

who is billy again?

[Rock Chalk]

billy, the retarded kid from Bang! cartoons.

[Mile High Shack]

billy, the retarded kid from Bang! cartoons.

LOL

oh yeah, sorry about that

Billy apparently told the CBs to play 10 yards off the ball too ;)

[TerrElway]

Talk about parroting a bunch of BS. Here are the facts regarding third downs and redzone TDs.

1. The Broncos defense was second in the league last year in third down conversion percentage. Are you pissed because they were not #1 ???

2. The Broncos defensively were 9th in RZ TD percentage. Not the best, but not too shabby either.

3. Last but not least, Pittsburgh was the only team whose defense was better at keeping the offense on the field in the league (i.e. Denver's defense was second in the league).

The above notwithstanding, their turnovers did stink.

Merlin

Merlin,
Not pissed at all and my sentence structure was BS rather than what I actually parroted. What I was thinking and what I typed don't match. I didn't mean last year only, I meant the last few years...you know those years that everyone has said the Defense is the problem.

They had a problem with 3rd down conversion percentage under Ray-Ray I believe but if the numbers you quote are true about the improvement last year then I am satisfied that they corrected that problem and would be very happy with #2 in the league in that stat.

9th in the league in RZ TD % is better than I thought and I appreciate the correction. Maybe the perception was there because the opponents seemed to be in the RZ so often due to a short field all game long.

That leads me to another reason I am still not sold on Coyer (not being sold on him and calling for his head aren't necessarily the same thing), being in the top 5 in defense seems like a bit of a paper tiger. The NFL predicates it's defensive rankings on yards rather than scoring. It's a fact that the Broncos were near the bottom of the league in field position as it relates to where opponents started. This can be attributed to 20 interceptions, poor special teams etc. That means teams had a short field a larger percentage of time, thus the defense had less yards to give up.

The same thing happened back in the Super Bowl years when the Bronco run D was ranked near the top, teams were always down 21-0 at the end of 1 qtr and had to pass the whole game. That was more the reason than Denver having a great run D, ask Corey Dillon about that.

There are problem areas all over this team, the defense, as you so kindly pointed out, corrected their RZ efficiency and with 3 TO's in week one, I hope they have also corrected that problem. I think the tools are there on the D side of the ball, what will Coyer do with them?

I'm a defensive guy, I played D and I like to watch D. That said, I consider dominant defenses ones like Baltimore (seems to be fading a bit now), New England (likely not to have the greatest #'s but always makes the adjustments and gets the job done when it counts), Philly to some extent and Carolina when they are healthy. I don't count Denver in that group...yet.

:Broncos:

[Mediator12]

LOL

oh yeah, sorry about that

Billy apparently told the CBs to play 10 yards off the ball too ;)

No that was Slowik, he's Bill's Cousin LOL

[Mile High Shack]

No that was Slowik, he's Bill's Cousin LOL

LOL

Slow-wit has been a billy for awhile now

but hey, he's our billy

[Mediator12]

LOL

Slow-wit has been a billy for awhile now

but hey, he's our billy

I actually thought Slowik was an excellent teacher during my three days at Camp. I could not get close enough to Coyer to listen, but was around Slowik almost all Camp and was Impressed.

However, the day Kaylore reported that the DB's Practiced closing on the ball playing off Coverage scared the Hell out of me. They were two yards too deep to break Effectively and the Offense had their best day against the pass Defense.

Slowik And Coyer Better Shut up and Fix it instead of saying it is a problem. Just FIX IT BEFORE the GAME is OVER next time Please :gus:

[Mediator12]

I just found this and it Pisses me of beyond all recognition:

Defensive line bends over backward
Big linemen dropped off in zone coverage against the Dolphins

By Lee Rasizer, Rocky Mountain News
September 16, 2005

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/broncos/article/0,1299,DRMN_17_4084981,00.html

ENGLEWOOD - Play on your heels. Backpedal. The concepts go against everything defensive linemen are taught from the first time they put on shoulder pads.

But on snap after snap Sunday, the Denver Broncos defensive line was less front four and more front three or two as it dropped into zones to accommodate numerous and varied blitz combinations.


Here is the part that scares the HELL out of me:

Yet for the most part, Frerotte handled the pressure extremely well, audibling out of runs and content to hit his "hot" read and letting his passing targets gain extra yards after the catch. The fact Miami turned so many short passes into longer gains wrecked what Coyer believes was "the right scheme" for attacking the Dolphins.

Denver sent straight blitzes 11 other times during its 34-10 loss, with mixed results.

"It came down to coordination," Coyer said. "We knew they were going to throw one-step passes. . . . The deal was, we didn't want them to run the ball. And what they did was let 3-yard gains turn into 12-yard passes. We can't do that."

Of the 12 zone blitzes against him, Frerotte unofficially completed seven of 10 passes for 55 yards with one interception.

[Mediator12]

I told people Denver would Blitz more this year, problem was the Coverage did NOT match the Pressure. There was pressure and Gus audibled quite well to exlpoit that F'in "Off Coverage".

God, I wish Plummer would be allowed to audible to see if he is as Good as some here Proclaim. Never mind the fact that Gus Frerotte can audible out of Bad Plays at the LOS in his first year, Jake Plummer can not after three years in the sytem!!!

Modern era QB's have to be able to Audible out of Bad play selections to move the chains in this era of the NFL. Otherwise you go 8% on third down plays and score 10 points.

[NaptownChief]

I told people Denver would Blitz more this year, problem was the Coverage did NOT match the Pressure. There was pressure and Gus audibled quite well to exlpoit that F'in "Off Coverage".

God, I wish Plummer would be allowed to audible to see if he is as Good as some here Proclaim. Never mind the fact that Gus Frerotte can audible out of Bad Plays at the LOS in his first year, Jake Plummer can not after three years in the sytem!!!




That tells me Plummer is dumb as a bag of hammers or Shanaplan is a control freak to the point he is hurting the team....Either is not good cause you are right that a QB in his 3rd season in the offense should be way beyond that.

[Mediator12]

That tells me Plummer is dumb as a bag of hammers or Shanaplan is a control freak to the point he is hurting the team....Either is not good cause you are right that a QB in his 3rd season in the offense should be way beyond that.

The worst case scenario is that it is Both Nap. I seriously think it is :moody:

[ScottXray]

yeah, shanny evolved post elway. We actually threw MORE. Then he changed again with Jake. As for the press conference, it's sort of a joke. OK, Ebenaeaer sucked and played dumb. The secodanry didn't tacle for ****. Jake missed the TEs who were supposed to be open all day, and who prolly were. We dropped balls. Our guards are smaller than fullbacks. We got gassed in Miami. Anything else? Didn't think so. Cokes are in the back of the room. Later.

I'm not saying he hasn't changed at all. He has tried to adjust the offense to the QB he has. But his system as a whole is designed on the PREMISE of an effective QB and pass game, balanced with an effective run game. Where we have been failing is in the red zone (Miami game was the exception..we failed all over the field), based on an ineffective o-line in that area being unable to run, and Jakes inability to read defenses and check off. Shannys system requires the QB be able to read and check off , and either because of Jakes inability or the coaches instructions we don't do it well. The O-line is not effective because the talent level of the line has slipped (age catches us all), and the talent, size and speed of D-lines has increased. Also the 3-4 defenses have started to be the dominant D, which affects how long the cutback lanes stay open. Shanny has not SEEMED to recognize those things. I do think he KNOWS what the problem is, but hasn't really addressed it effectively.

If the O-line were bigger we would run there better, and probably allow Jake more time to find open receivers, and give him more options. We don't have that O-line as of now.

Hence my comment about the LONG term plan and the opportunity to rebuild the core with this years draft. The thing that is inconsistent is that Shanny has not seemed to look at the long term in the past, since he hasn't "rebuilt" the core ("were only one or two players away from elite" comments) before now. I think that maybe he is looking at that now, and will still TRY to field a competitve team. There were several Offensive linemen that received try-outs this week, but good ones are few and far between.

A playoff team just might not be the result that happens this year. There will be a lot of frustration here because of that. I, for one, think Shanny stays no matter what happens. He has always fielded competitive teams and has earned Bowlens trust in that respect. Maybe he has already prepped Bowlen that this might NOT be a good year , but what is said in public and what is said in private are definitely not the same things.

I expect a much BETTER game from the offense this week, anyway. Its unfortunate that San Diego is the opponent, since an easier team might have allowed a little more room for mistakes and miscues. But the schedule is what it is. We'll find out on Sunday. :bs:

[DBroncos4life]

That tells me Plummer is dumb as a bag of hammers or Shanaplan is a control freak to the point he is hurting the team....Either is not good cause you are right that a QB in his 3rd season in the offense should be way beyond that.


Ha there is no way he is dumber then Lords was when he was NU's QB. We had to cut our play book in half because of him, and NU's playbook is run right, run left, run up the middle.

[Mile High Shack]

I told people Denver would Blitz more this year, problem was the Coverage did NOT match the Pressure. There was pressure and Gus audibled quite well to exlpoit that F'in "Off Coverage".

God, I wish Plummer would be allowed to audible to see if he is as Good as some here Proclaim. Never mind the fact that Gus Frerotte can audible out of Bad Plays at the LOS in his first year, Jake Plummer can not after three years in the sytem!!!

Modern era QB's have to be able to Audible out of Bad play selections to move the chains in this era of the NFL. Otherwise you go 8% on third down plays and score 10 points.

I think it's obvious after that San Diego debacle last year when he audibled to fade the end zone why Plummer isn't allowed to audible

another reason why we need another QB

[Bob's your Information Minister]

I think Shamaplan took away Plummer's freedom to audible after that San Diego mishap last year.

[NaptownChief]

We had to cut our play book in half because of him, and NU's playbook is run right, run left, run up the middle.


rofl

[DBroncos4life]

rofl


The worst part is he was there for 5 years. Dumbass.

[bendog]

I'm not saying he hasn't changed at all. He has tried to adjust the offense to the QB he has. But his system as a whole is designed on the PREMISE of an effective QB and pass game, balanced with an effective run game. Where we have been failing is in the red zone (Miami game was the exception..we failed all over the field), based on an ineffective o-line in that area being unable to run, and Jakes inability to read defenses and check off. Shannys system requires the QB be able to read and check off , and either because of Jakes inability or the coaches instructions we don't do it well. The O-line is not effective because the talent level of the line has slipped (age catches us all), and the talent, size and speed of D-lines has increased. Also the 3-4 defenses have started to be the dominant D, which affects how long the cutback lanes stay open. Shanny has not SEEMED to recognize those things. I do think he KNOWS what the problem is, but hasn't really addressed it effectively.

If the O-line were bigger we would run there better, and probably allow Jake more time to find open receivers, and give him more options. We don't have that O-line as of now.

Hence my comment about the LONG term plan and the opportunity to rebuild the core with this years draft. The thing that is inconsistent is that Shanny has not seemed to look at the long term in the past, since he hasn't "rebuilt" the core ("were only one or two players away from elite" comments) before now. I think that maybe he is looking at that now, and will still TRY to field a competitve team. There were several Offensive linemen that received try-outs this week, but good ones are few and far between.

A playoff team just might not be the result that happens this year. There will be a lot of frustration here because of that. I, for one, think Shanny stays no matter what happens. He has always fielded competitive teams and has earned Bowlens trust in that respect. Maybe he has already prepped Bowlen that this might NOT be a good year , but what is said in public and what is said in private are definitely not the same things.

I expect a much BETTER game from the offense this week, anyway. Its unfortunate that San Diego is the opponent, since an easier team might have allowed a little more room for mistakes and miscues. But the schedule is what it is. We'll find out on Sunday. :bs:

I totally go along this far: Shanny has bet that Jake can develop and make plays off the 5 step with three reads, and consistently make 10-20 yard throws. I think the plan for the line was/is to have replaced Neil with more a mauler type, but shanny expected to have freed up cap on TP. Bad move in assuming he could have both wahle or demulling and Little Ian. And, next year, move Hamilton to center and Clabo or someone else in at guard, while hopefully keeping Lepsis. Can smallish olines work with a 3-4? SF did ok. And, the key is to be able to get guys inot the second level where the LBs are.

This season's off season plan went to hell. Instead Den has prolly 5-10 million of Clev's cap playing dline. Next year, most likely 2 of CB, TP, Big Ass are gone.

There's good and bad with shanny as gm. Each year he will work his ass off to field the best team possible. He will gamble. He will generally get 10 wins. If Jake can play as well as .... well have a passer rating in the 90s, and barring injuries, this is still not a bad team. The oline, yes, is the big concern.

One thing I'll add, but its not aimed at you at all, is that it really jobs me to see postings about "shanny's drafts suck," but nobody ever seems to have a link or stats to show that more of some other teams picks make it. It's true that we seem to have a lot of guys end up elsewhere, but that's because at the time somebody in den beat them out of a job.

edit: the ernster pick still miffs me though. With saurpuss, I'd have taken another gamble on a position guy

[Circle Orange]

Some seriously pin headed plays.

To add insult to injury, Jason Taylor said the Dolphins didn't even USE most of their defensive sets against Denver. They just went with basic alignments and messed everything up.

Cripes, is the team so easy to defend now? Or was that just a matchup problem with Miami? http://scosoft.com/s/n/4cc2da12.gif