More Coyer news from PFT

[Denver724]

http://www.profootballtalk.com/rumormill.htm

FINS KNEW WHAT BRONCOS "D" WAS DOING

As a follow-up to our Monday night piece regarding the dissatisfaction of some Denver defenders with schemes that they deem to be too simple and predictable, a league source tells us that the Miami Dolphins were able, based on study of past Broncos games, to figure out what the defense was doing on many, if not most, plays.

"They basically use the same defense for every game," said the source. "Same tendencies, etc."

Most teams devise a specific plan for each game, which is intended in part to negate the potential benefits of film study. The idea, obviously, is to confuse or fool the offense on every play.

Instead, the outcome of the team's Week One loss to the Dolphins is making defensive coordinator Larry Coyer look confused, and foolish.

[bloodsunday]

Ouch. Then why was Miami only able to score 6 points until our D had been on the field 40 plays in the first half?

Doesn't matter what anyone says, the D held its own and was more than capable of winning that game. The statistics don't do justice to the way that game was played. I also believe the perhaps Denver went with a Vanilla game plan expecting that they could beat Miami without giving away too much in terms of game film.

Peyton Manning was quoted in the preseason as saying that Denver runs as much complexity on Defense as any team he has faced. Peyton is much smarter than anyone at PFW.

[Mile High Shack]

kinda what a lot of us have been saying about Coyer for awhile

He seems to be over his head a little bit as the sole D coordinator

[Bronco9798]

I'm really anxious to see how the team re-acts to the adversity this week. I really think this game Sunday will tell us a lot about this team on both sides of the ball.

[Rascal]

Peyton Manning was quoted in the preseason as saying that Denver runs as much complexity on Defense as any team he has faced. Peyton is much smarter than anyone at PFW.

Link please.

[Mile High Shack]

Link please.
He said something about Denver having as much talent as anyone else

Yadda yadda, he was just doing player talk and speak as he threw for over 200 yards against us in the 1st half again in a preseason game

He is not going to say anything to inflame another team, just doing his usual “gosh, they have a good team” routine

[Bronco9798]

He said something about Denver having as much talent as anyone else

Yadda yadda, he was just doing player talk and speak as he threw for over 200 yards against us in the 1st half again in a preseason game

He is not going to say anything to inflame another team, just doing his usual “gosh, they have a good team” routine

I saw it to it was actually an interview. I remember him saying that.

[kent156]

PFT is out to get coyer i wonder if david gibbs has family writing for them.

[bloodsunday]

Link please.
I don't have a link... I heard an interview on FSRM. I tried to find one in the RMN, but was unsuccessful.

[bloodsunday]

He is not going to say anything to inflame another team, just doing his usual “gosh, they have a good team” routine
That's probably true. I didn't get the impression that it was coach speak though. It sounded like he was genuienly happy that they played Denver in the 3rd preseason game because of the number of looks they would get. He seemed happy that he actually had to prepare for the game... freak. rofl

[Tombstone RJ]

Fact of the matter is that the Broncos defense could not stop the Phins on third downs when they really needed to...

That is what I'm pissed about. Third and 10, the Phins convert. Third and 15, the Phins convert. Third and 4, the Phins convert.

If a defense can't get off the field on third down, then the rest of the stats are meaningless.

[Bronco9798]

Fact of the matter is that the Broncos defense could not stop the Phins on third down...

That is what I'm pissed about. Third and 10, the Phins convert. Third and 15, the Phins convert. Third and 4, the Phins convert.

If a defense can't get off the field on third down, then the rest of the stats are meaningless.


Ask Mediator, it was the offenses fault. He'll be here soon to correct you and tell you how stupid are.

[Tombstone RJ]

Ask Mediator, it was the offenses fault. He'll be here soon to correct you and tell you how stupid are.

The offense did suck. No doubt. I'm not denying that one bit. However, I was not impressed with the defense either.

[bloodsunday]

Ask Mediator, it was the offenses fault. He'll be here soon to correct you and tell you how stupid are.
The fact of the matter is that the ultimate test of a defense is points allowed. We had given them 6pts (despite some poor defensive play calling) until the damn broke at the end of the 3rd quarter. The defense doesn't get a free pass, but the offense shoulders more of the blame for this particular loss. Shanny acknowledged it himself.

[Bronco9798]

The offense did suck. No doubt. I'm not denying that one bit. However, I was not impressed with the defense either.


As far as holding them to 6 points in the 1st half, I thought they did a great job. As far as giving up some sustained drives and 148 yards in the 1st quarter, I wasn't impressed either.

[Bronco9798]

The fact of the matter is that the ultimate test of a defense is points allowed. We had given them 6pts (despite some poor defensive play calling) until the damn broke at the end of the 3rd quarter. The defense doesn't get a free pass, but the offense shoulders more of the blame for this particular loss. Shanny acknowledged it himself.

I agree.

[Tombstone RJ]

As far as holding them to 6 points in the 1st half, I thought they did a great job. As far as giving up some sustained drives and 148 yards in the 1st quarter, I wasn't impressed either.

Those long sustained drives in the first half wore down the defense. By the third quarter when the Broncos impotent offense couldn't convert on their third downs (Broncos were 1-12 on third down conversions, yikes), the defense just could not stop the Phins.

[Rascal]

Maybe it was lack of conditioning or something I don't know. But we have all seen the Ravens D and Bucs D shut out opponents all game long despite their offense being about as pathetic as ours.

[NaptownChief]

The defensive scheme put in place is usually dictated by the offensive set and not vice versa. Obviously some offenses try to audible to counter adjust to the defense but the vast majority of the time the defense runs a scheme that gives them the best chance of success against the offensive set while mixing in a mild prediction of run or pass based on the down or distance.

If a defense keeps running the same scheme it is because the offense is probably running the same scheme and they are having success. Based on the first half it is fair to say they were having success.

Seems like pretty silly criticism of Coyer IMO. If they want to take shots at the Donks they have plenty of targets starting with Shanaplan. And Coyer wasn't the one going after the Browns rejects that he is forced to use.

[Mediator12]

Fact of the matter is that the Broncos defense could not stop the Phins on third downs when they really needed to...

That is what I'm pissed about. Third and 10, the Phins convert. Third and 15, the Phins convert. Third and 4, the Phins convert.

If a defense can't get off the field on third down, then the rest of the stats are meaningless.

This is a true criticism that needs to be addressed this week. How about the recognition for two fourth down stops and two pure TO's. I am still glad I have no access to Lenny Walls right now. I would probably get arrested for kicking his scrawny little ass!

[Mile High Shack]

This is a true criticism that needs to be addressed this week. How about the recognition for two fourth down stops and two pure TO's. I am still glad I have no access to Lenny Walls right now. I would probably get arrested for kicking his scrawny little ass!
Well, as you well know

I don’t like Lenny Walls as a starting CB at all…………so I’m with you there

[Mediator12]

I just wish the Guys would F***** do their Jobs dude. Cb's can not play scared. They have to be Warriors and not afraid to get beat. Damn I would sell one of my testicles for a guy with the Heart Deangelo Hall displayed on Monday versus TO. WHYTF do we not get those kind of players in DENVER???

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Um, hello?

PFT is full of ****, as usual.

There's not a team in the league that does what this "source" is suggesting.

[Beantown Bronco]

Hall may have heart, but TO was throwing him around like a rag doll and was open all night against him. Sure, Hall got a pick, but the pass was 10 yards away from where TO was. It reminded me of a Deltha O'Neil pick...the only reason he got it is because the pass was nowhere near the receiver.

[NFLBRONCO]

The O stunk they lost this game. I think the D needs to get more 3 and outs as well. I bet if we replaced Kubes and Coyer with new better Coordinators how much better would be right now? I say alot.

[bendog]

We'll find out whether Gus just had one of those games he's capable of having.

I'm also a bit worried that Jake wasn't finding guys open. Yeah Lelie quit running had the drop, and Alexander had one too, but I seem to recall Den running those horizontal routes and fish just right on guys.

[Ninjafied]

I just wish the Guys would ****** do their Jobs dude. Cb's can not play scared. They have to be Warriors and not afraid to get beat. Damn I would sell one of my testicles for a guy with the Heart Deangelo Hall displayed on Monday versus TO. WHYTF do we not get those kind of players in DENVER???
Darrett Williams ??? From what I've seen he plays with nothing but heart (and maybe a little quickness). He definitely doesn't let his size affect his tackling.
Just don't swap that nut too soon or you might end up with a guy like Deltha.

[2KBack]

Darrett Williams ??? From what I've seen he plays with nothing but heart (and maybe a little quickness). He definitely doesn't let his size affect his tackling.
Just don't swap that nut too soon or you might end up with a guy like Deltha.

Not to mention Champ, who was a denfense unto himself in the first half

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Peyton Manning was quoted in the preseason as saying that Denver runs as much complexity on Defense as any team he has faced. Peyton is much smarter than anyone at PFW.

I can tell how much Paytown has been impressed by our defense judging by him dropping 41 and 49 on us 2 years running.

[bendog]

I can tell how much Paytown has been impressed by our defense judging by him dropping 41 and 49 on us 2 years running.
Maybe Payaton meant we just show him more than other teams do when playing meaninless games?

[DB-Freak]

When the players suck ass, the so called complex schemes backfire.

I can't name one player on our defense who performs above the minimum consistently.

They can't even consistently perform the bare minimum sometimes.

[NaptownChief]

I can tell how much Paytown has been impressed by our defense judging by him dropping 41 and 49 on us 2 years running.


I'm guessing he is very impressed and wished every team in the league did exactly the same thing based on those games. He would throw for 8,000 yards and about 70 TD's if that were the case. ;D

[bendog]

DJ does, or did last year. Wilson gives effort, even though he doesn't wrap up. Champ's .... champ. Guy's a great player.

Honestly, I don't recall the D much aside from they did consistently stuff the run and put Gus in third down situations, but he converted. Gus does hold the single game yardage record in Den, doesn't he? The guy can hotter than Craig Morton, but when he sucks, he really sucks. I think we should keep an open mind, esp considering the offseason moves do appear to give Coyer a personnel mix to mix up his blitzes. I recall Eukaban getting a holding call when he dropped back in a blitz package. So, they were doing something.

[DB-Freak]

DJ does, or did last year. Wilson gives effort, even though he doesn't wrap up. Champ's .... champ. Guy's a great player.

Honestly, I don't recall the D much aside from they did consistently stuff the run and put Gus in third down situations, but he converted. Gus does hold the single game yardage record in Den, doesn't he? The guy can hotter than Craig Morton, but when he sucks, he really sucks. I think we should keep an open mind, esp considering the offseason moves do appear to give Coyer a personnel mix to mix up his blitzes. I recall Eukaban getting a holding call when he dropped back in a blitz package. So, they were doing something.
Yea, but we are talking about championship material here.

This defense is nowhere near being that.

[azbroncfan]

I think that this report is pretty accurate. I could precdict DEN's D from the bar tv. If a fan can see it I'm sure a good coach like saban can pick up on it. D gave up 6 pts that would of been more if not for bailey causing a fumble and catching a gift INT. Coyers Defense is almost the same as Ray Rhodes even my seattle fan buddy said Den's D looks like seattle's D.

[bendog]

Yea, but we are talking about championship material here.

This defense is nowhere near being that.
one game is way too early to make decisions. And, I failed to note Lynch is a guy who never leaves anything on the field. I didn't really like the moves of bringing him in (I think his game is gone both physically and the rules have changed the game) and I didn't like Eon.

I wanted a damn guard not a midget Lb. And, I've seen enough to TP. He doesn't show up when it counts. But the trade for him didn't work,and shanny blew the cap on eon, and by the time TP redid the contract, it was too late to get Wahle and a pass rusher.

But shanny's won a lot of games, and kept us entertained for a lot of years.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

But shanny's won a lot of games, and kept us entertained for a lot of years.

http://slam.canoe.ca/97NFLPlayoffsGalleryImages/jan4_4.jpg

[bendog]

ouch, neither of those guys can get anywhere without the Duke.

[bloodsunday]

I just wish the Guys would ****** do their Jobs dude. Cb's can not play scared. They have to be Warriors and not afraid to get beat. Damn I would sell one of my testicles for a guy with the Heart Deangelo Hall displayed on Monday versus TO. WHYTF do we not get those kind of players in DENVER???
I think we have some of those players. The coaches need to unleash them. Darrent is a guy that has no memory, you can tell. He's gonna battle you every play regarless of what happened the last play. I think Bailey, Fergy, Lynch, Al, and DJ all fit into that category as well. But when Coyer tells them to line up 7 yards off the ball on 2nd and 7, what's can they do?

It's like fear of unleashing Jake because of bad Jake has made its way into the defensive mentality. Attitude reflects leadership and that's why I wanna see some fire out of Shanny once in a while. This team hasn't had that fire since Gibbs was the OL coach, IMO. Even though he was the OL coach, he was an angry cuss and would get on anyone that wasn't doing their job. But when Shanny comes out on Monday and says "if we fix this and that then we gotta chance to do something special" (ho-hum), what do you think the players are gonna do? They're gonna say, well its a 16 round fight we'll get em next time. It really pisses me off when Trevor says "they get paid to". That's rationalizing a loss and just a sorry attitude, IMO.

I agree 100% that great defenses don't play scared. When our offense used to score 30 pts a game, our defense didn't play scared. They took tons up chances and if you beat em, you beat em.

[bloodsunday]

I can tell how much Paytown has been impressed by our defense judging by him dropping 41 and 49 on us 2 years running.
I'm not saying he's impressed by our D. But I am saying the he believes they do more than the same vanilla crap that PFT says we do every week.

[watermock]

PFT's rumor mill is just that, but he's worth reading, despite the fact that he absolutely hates anything orange, especially Tefonahan...now he's after Coyer. He is pretty good at digging up dirt tho. It's when he makes mudballs and starts throwing them he's over the top. That's his gig.

At least he's not Jimmy Rome, who is either taking cheap shots or kissing ass, depending on his mood. The guy acts like a woman.

Before we call for Coyer's head, tell me why Denver could only convert ONE OF TWELVE AND ON OF THREE THIRD AND FORTH DOWN CONVERSIONS!!!

How can we go FIVE AND OUT from the freaking 3 yard line, first and goal? At the goal line, we ran Bell up the middle half a dozen times, and he was absolutely stuffed. Kubiak needs to be fired, needed to be fired, and will wind up getting Shanahan fired. We need more than a mini-me wannabe in Pubiak. It's been obvious Kubiak has hit a wall and isn't getting any better...he's had plenty of time to mature, but he's like a Homer clone...even stupider than the original.

As far as Coyer goes, PFT can kiss my ass. Yes, third down conversions were terrible on sunday, but christ, the offense was going 3 and out every damn series...hell...Jake didn't even complete a pass for a quarter and a half.

I could tell the defense was getting tired and frustrated by late in the second quarter. The got to cool down some at half, but when the critical second half of the third came around, Bailey went down and Walls and Williams both left with heat exaustion/dehydration/cramps.

There were three glaring weaknesses in this game...Jake Plummer has terrible, Lelie and Watts were total non factors. At total for both of 17 freaking yards. Watts didn't even make the stat sheet. Third, our middle three on the OL were simply pushed around like children. It was like the chess club vs. the 3 bullies. It was embarrasing.

I'm also wondering why in the hell Dayne was inactive when Q was cut, and we only had 4 active corners. Why do have essentially 6 TE? Ernster was totally mediocre. Why did Kyle Johnson see absolutely nothing except that 4th down TD? Hell, we were lucky to score 10 it was so bad. Damn I'm getting pissed again. I guess I'm still in anger...I have made it thru denial...I refuse to accept defeat.

The worst part was seeing Shanahan's news conference. The guy looked exausted and beaten like a hurricane victim that got plucked from a tree. His eyes were unusually sunken (more than usual), and he was really subdued.

Any preseason confidence was completely and utterly shatter to pieces. I dunno if Humpty Dumpty can be put back together again.

[bendog]

pet your cat, and say 'ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooohhh hhhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm'

[Taco John]

kinda what a lot of us have been saying about Coyer for awhile

He seems to be over his head a little bit as the sole D coordinator



I can't believe anybody is saying that... And even moreso, I can't believe anybody is buying anything that PFW is reporting.

It's entertainment over there. Not news.

I don't buy a word of this, and I'm confident that Larry Coyer is among the top defensive coaches in the league.

[watermock]

Beezlebub won't give me back the remote. Damn, now he ran off with it in his teeth. He keeps turning the channel with his nose to Animal Planet. Ha!

[Mile High Shack]

I can't believe anybody is saying that... And even moreso, I can't believe anybody is buying anything that PFW is reporting.

It's entertainment over there. Not news.

I don't buy a word of this, and I'm confident that Larry Coyer is among the top defensive coaches in the league.

well

is it just me or has everyone of his blitzes looked like crap since he has taken over as DC?

I'm not saying he sucks, just maybe ole Mock had a point a long time ago when he said there was a reason he never got a chance to be a DC before he was much older.

I worry about 2 things with our defense under Coyer

lack of Turnovers and lack of pressure on the QB

We got 2 TO's on defense last week, so maybe we are on top of that, although Champ caused both of those

the pressure on the QB was non-existant

anyway, I'm not saying to get rid of him, I just have concerns since last year and they haven't been answered yet

[Bob's your Information Minister]

I'm confident that Larry Coyer is among the top defensive coaches in the league.

OK I wouldn't go THAT far. ROFL!

[Taco John]

OK I wouldn't go THAT far. ROFL!



No one cares what you think either.

But Coyer has had a top five defense every year he's been here. That speaks for itself.

[Mile High Shack]

No one cares what you think either.

But Coyer has had a top five defense every year he's been here. That speaks for itself.

statistically wise

but in the categories that count

points allowed and turnovers

he has ranked near the bottom every year

[Bob's your Information Minister]

No one cares what you think either.

But Coyer has had a top five defense every year he's been here. That speaks for itself.

He's good, but he doesn't have the skins on the wall of some other guys.

And he gets owned by the Colts. Repeatedly.

[Taco John]

statistically wise

but in the categories that count

points allowed and turnovers

he has ranked near the bottom every year



You're going to cherry pick which stats count?

THe fact is, we've gotten to the playoffs twice, and we've been in the top 5 in defense each year he's been here DESPITE the players failing to produce turnovers.

Coyer isn't the problem in Denver. He wasn't the problem on Sunday agains Miami, and he wasn't the problem against Indianapolis...

I'd fire Kubiak before I fired Coyer.

[Taco John]

statistically wise

but in the categories that count

points allowed and turnovers

he has ranked near the bottom every year



Also, I'd like to point out that you're FLAT wrong...

We were a top ten defense in holding the score last year. Our defense averaged 19.0 points per game. We were 9th in the league.

It's clear that you just have a predjudice against Coyer. When you start making up stats like "he has ranked near the bottom in points allowed every year" despite the truth, you reveal an agenda.

[NaptownChief]

I worry about 2 things with our defense under Coyer

lack of Turnovers and lack of pressure on the QB




I know a guy up in Syracuse you can call for turnovers and QB pressure. It comes was tons of huge plays for the other team and a $hitty overall defense but hey you can't have everything I suppose.

[watermock]

It's been 3rd down conversions and red zone conversion along with the lack of turnovers.

[Taco John]

As far as the idea that we never get any pressure, how is it that we were 6th in sack yardage lost last year if we weren't getting to the quarterback?

[Rock Chalk]

No one cares what you think either.

But Coyer has had a top five defense every year he's been here. That speaks for itself.
Statistics are misleading.

The defense ranked so high because opposing teams started at our forty yard line everytime.

If our special teams were decent last year, they would ahve got 80 yard drives for scores instead of 30-40 yard drives.

Our defense is way overrated.

[Popps]

Fact of the matter is that the Broncos defense could not stop the Phins on third downs when they really needed to...

That is what I'm pissed about. Third and 10, the Phins convert. Third and 15, the Phins convert. Third and 4, the Phins convert.

If a defense can't get off the field on third down, then the rest of the stats are meaningless.

BINGO! We only stopped one of their drives in the first half, and they probably had somewhere around 70 yards in penalties, which should have made that much easier. We had no sacks. Miami dominated TOP. Yet, I keep hearing about how great our D played in the first half. Pretty funny.

[Mile High Shack]

Also, I'd like to point out that you're FLAT wrong...

We were a top ten defense in holding the score last year. Our defense averaged 19.0 points per game. We were 9th in the league.

It's clear that you just have a predjudice against Coyer. When you start making up stats like "he has ranked near the bottom in points allowed every year" despite the truth, you reveal an agenda.

I don't have a bias against him, but I thought we were the bottom of points allowed or something, I guess I was wrong :)

I don't think he is an idiot, I just am disappointed on how the D has turned out since he has taken over

I guess my expectations were too high

[Rock Chalk]

As far as the idea that we never get any pressure, how is it that we were 6th in sack yardage lost last year if we weren't getting to the quarterback?
Ugh, you sound like you are defending Griese all over again.

YOU bitched about he pressure last year. Sacks are not the only indicator of pressure, indeed its the worst indicator. They dont keep stats for hurries, but that would be a far better indicator of how much pressure the D generated last year and while sack yardage might have been good, there were far far too many times when QBs had all ****ing day to throw.

[Mile High Shack]

Ugh, you sound like you are defending Griese all over again.

YOU b****ed about he pressure last year. Sacks are not the only indicator of pressure, indeed its the worst indicator. They dont keep stats for hurries, but that would be a far better indicator of how much pressure the D generated last year and while sack yardage might have been good, there were far far too many times when QBs had all ****ing day to throw.

or there was a blitz and the CB stayed about 10 yards back to allow an easy slant on a hot route, the easiest blitz buster

[Mediator12]

BINGO! We only stopped one of their drives in the first half, and they probably had somewhere around 70 yards in penalties, which should have made that much easier. We had no sacks. Miami dominated TOP. Yet, I keep hearing about how great our D played in the first half. Pretty funny.

Stop making **** up. Seriously. The dolphins were 4-8 in the first half with two TO's and One TO on downs. You need to learn how to think before speaking sometimes.

[Mediator12]

I don't have a bias against him, but I thought we were the bottom of points allowed or something, I guess I was wrong :)

I don't think he is an idiot, I just am disappointed on how the D has turned out since he has taken over

I guess my expectations were too high

Plus the broncos were second defensively in third down Conversion%, second in total first downs given up, and Ninth in Red Zone TD%. They kept the offense on the field better than any team but PIT last year. The offense had more Possessions with NO Points than Any team in the NFL. Go look that up.

All this with NO pass Pressure on the QB and 20 TO's. Keep trying and come back after you actually have something substantial instead of Blind Perception.

[bloodsunday]

Plus the broncos were second defensively in third down Conversion%, second in total first downs given up, and Ninth in Red Zone TD%. They kept the offense on the field better than any team but PIT last year. The offense had more Possessions with NO Points than Any team in the NFL. Go look that up.

All this with NO pass Pressure on the QB and 20 TO's. Keep trying and come back after you actually have something substantial instead of Blind Perception.
Get em' Med. Fellow Maners, let this venom before the real problem... the O.

[Florida_Bronco]

Wow you know PFT is just plaing ignorant when even the Chief fans come in here and defend us.....just Wow.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Wow you know PFT is just plaing ignorant when even the Chief fans come in here and defend us.....just Wow.

I don't know, maybe there is a ring of truth to it. Coyer still hasn't figured out how to stop the Chiefs running game. ;D

[Taco John]

BINGO! We only stopped one of their drives in the first half, and they probably had somewhere around 70 yards in penalties, which should have made that much easier. We had no sacks. Miami dominated TOP. Yet, I keep hearing about how great our D played in the first half. Pretty funny.



You're actually embarassingly wrong... Which game were you watching?

Stop Number One On Miami's first drive, Champ Bailey forced a fumble that Ian Gold recovered it at the Denver 47.

Stop Number Two On Miami's first drive in the second quarter, Champ Bailey intercepted a pass at the Denver 44. At that point in time we had held the Dolphins to six points (two field goals) and had intercepted the ball twice. At that point in time we had already had two three-and-outs on offense and exactly zero yards in the passing game (0 for 5).

Stop Number Three After that Champ Bailey Interception, the Broncos failed to get into the endzone and turned the ball over on downs at the Miami one yard line. The Dolphins then went Three and out

Stop Number Four On fourth and one, Gus Frerotte fumbles the ball at the Denver 44, recovered by Ronnie Brown, turning the ball over on downs.

To blame Miami's dominance of TOP is a joke as well, considering that Denver had the ball six times on offense and had 3 "three and outs," and one "four and out." And as far as that goes, the Time of Possession in the first half was Miami 15:22 and Denver 14:38. Miami only had the ball for a little over a minute more than Denver.

The score was 3 to 6. We had recovered two turnovers. We had forced two fumbles, one of them recovered. We had forced a three and out with Miami's back to the endzone. We had stopped Miami on half of their third downs (they were 4 for 8 in converting first half third downs). Miami had reached the redzone twice and failed to convert a touchdown both times.

Meanwhile, on offense, we were 1 for 7 on third down. We had completed 6 of 17 tosses for 63 yards. Jake finished the quarter with a 46.9 passer rating. Our only semi-bright spot was that we had managed 52 yards on the ground, though for only 3.7 yard average per attempt.

Our defense wasn't the problem in this game.

[Popps]

All this with NO pass Pressure on the QB and 20 TO's. Keep trying and come back after you actually have something substantial instead of Blind Perception.

I have something substantial for you. We allowed 34 points on Sunday, and 34 points in the FIRST HALF of the last game we played. (Recall our playoff "game?")

Everyone in the league knew our defense was soft. Top ten stats don't mean $### if you can't stop teams when it counts. Our defensive line hasn't been able to pressure the QB without blitz help in years. The rest of the league knows it, and it's very simple to put together a game plan for a blitzing team. (See Sunday)

There's a reason that we went out and signed 37 defensive linemen in the off-season.

[Taco John]

Ugh, you sound like you are defending Griese all over again.

YOU b****ed about he pressure last year. Sacks are not the only indicator of pressure, indeed its the worst indicator. They dont keep stats for hurries, but that would be a far better indicator of how much pressure the D generated last year and while sack yardage might have been good, there were far far too many times when QBs had all ****ing day to throw.


Not on Sunday... Gus didn't take much time to throw. Most of his tosses were on quick slants where pressure didn't matter.

[24champ]

Wow you know PFT is just plaing ignorant when even the Chief fans come in here and defend us.....just Wow.

thought we bombed the place? PFT is garbage and is run by lawyers! who gives a F*** what they say?

[Bronx33]

The D was NOT the problem last week.....................

[bloodsunday]

I don't know, maybe there is a ring of truth to it. Coyer still hasn't figured out how to stop the Chiefs running game. ;D
Neither has 95% of the NFL.

[Popps]

.

Our defense wasn't the problem in this game.

Sure, Taco... just like it was Jake's fault we gave up 34 points in the first half at Indy. Keep those great takes coming.

Our defense was exposed in the playoffs and exposed by a very sub-par offense on Sunday.

After one week, our indomitable defense is raked 30th in 3rd down conversions allowed and DEAD LAST in points allowed. Go play with those numbers, Spinny.

[Bronco9798]

Our defense was quite average last year. Anybody who thinks we pressured the QB on a consistent basis last year has been smoking some big bowls of something. We sucked at getting pressure on the QB last year.

If you really think about it, Indy actually gave us a playoff berth last year by playing Sorgi at QB and resting most starters the last game. We very well could of been 9-7 last year and watching the playoffs at home.

I think getting into the playoffs last year made some people feel like we were actually better than what we really were on both sides of the ball.

[bloodsunday]

I have something substantial for you. We allowed 34 points on Sunday, and 34 points in the FIRST HALF of the last game we played. (Recall our playoff "game?")

Everyone in the league knew our defense was soft. Top ten stats don't mean $### if you can't stop teams when it counts. Our defensive line hasn't been able to pressure the QB without blitz help in years. The rest of the league knows it, and it's very simple to put together a game plan for a blitzing team. (See Sunday)

There's a reason that we went out and signed 37 defensive linemen in the off-season.
Do you really believe this or are you just arguing? Seriously. 7 points were directly off a Jason Taylor fumble recovery for a TD. Jake had two picks in the last third of the game. Ernster kicked the damn ball out of bounds. Up until this mess, Denver was in the game only because the D played their hearts out. The O needs to be fixed. The D did everything we could have asked. Shanny openly apologized to his defense for the offensive (parden the pun) performance on Sunday.

[bendog]

We couldn't stop ..... freerot. Dude looked like Brady.

[Taco John]

Sure, Taco... just like it was Jake's fault we gave up 34 points in the first half at Indy. Keep those great takes coming.

Our defense was exposed in the playoffs and exposed by a very sub-par offense on Sunday.

After one week, our indomitable defense is raked 30th in 3rd down conversions allowed and DEAD LAST in points allowed. Go play with those numbers, Spinny.



The correct answer was:

Oops. I guess I had it wrong. Looks like we did stop them more than once. My bad.

[Popps]

Do you really believe this or are you just arguing? Seriously. 7 points were directly off a Jason Taylor fumble recovery for a TD. Jake had two picks in the last third of the game. Ernster kicked the damn ball out of bounds. Up until this mess, Denver was in the game only because the D played their hearts out. The O needs to be fixed. The D did everything we could have asked. Shanny openly apologized to his defense for the offensive (parden the pun) performance on Sunday.

Dude, one of Jake's picks was basically a hail mary on 4th down. He didn't play a great game, but he had no help... and using those numbers to support you case makes YOU look more like you're just arguing than me.

Our D played their hearts out???? LMAO! We only stopped ONE ****ING DRIVE in the first half, despite Miami doing their best to help us. (Gobs of penalties, gift-wrapped interceptions, etc.) We're raked last in the league in defense after that game. Sure... they played their hearts out, alright.

Does our offense need to be fixed? Of course. Does that mean our defense doesn't suck, as well? Of course not. If you want to play games with numbers, our O was raked in the top 10 last year as well. Our defense lost us more games than our offense last year.


"The D did everything we could have asked."

You and I ask very different things, my friend.

[bloodsunday]

Our defense was quite average last year. Anybody who thinks we pressured the QB on a consistent basis last year has been smoking some big bowls of something. We sucked at getting pressure on the QB last year.

If you really think about it, Indy actually gave us a playoff berth last year by playing Sorgi at QB and resting most starters the last game. We very well could of been 9-7 last year and watching the playoffs at home.

I think getting into the playoffs last year made some people feel like we were actually better than what we really were on both sides of the ball.
This is all true. But, we are talking about this season. The defense did what we asked them to do on Sunday except for pressure the QB. The problem was that Miami threw the ball on 3 step drops and we put our corners 10 yards off the ball. Not even the best pass rushing teams are going to get sacks in that situation.

Ronnie Brown had 57 yards on 22 carries. We forced 2 fumbles and an INT. The defense was better than subpar. If we had put Miami into a position (by scoring points) that they had to throw the ball down field, we'd know better how the pass rush would have done. I suspect it would have been good considering their OL is not very good.

The entire tempo of the game played into Miami's hands.

[Bronco9798]

The defense gave up 148 yards alone in the 1st quarter.

[Taco John]

Shanny openly apologized to his defense for the offensive (parden the pun) performance on Sunday.



I missed that... Where did you find that precious gem?

[Taco John]

The defense gave up 148 yards alone in the 1st quarter.



And how many yards did the offense put up in that time?

[Taco John]

Not to mention, who cares about yards? I thought points were what mattered. You defense bashers like to cherry pick which stats are meaningful and when...

[Popps]

This is all true. But, we are talking about this season. The defense did what we asked them to do on Sunday except for pressure the QB.

Actually, pressuring the QB was the main thing we went into this season asking our D to do.

They didn't do that.

They also couldn't stop but ONE Miami drive in the first half, and couldn't stop them on 3rd down.

So, as long as we're not asking our defense to stop anyone or pressure the QB, they play great.

[bloodsunday]

We couldn't stop ..... freerot. Dude looked like Brady.
because Miami had a good game plan and our Offensive ineptness played into their hands. If we had put 14 points on the board in the first half, then they would have had to play it differently.

[Bronco9798]

This is all true. But, we are talking about this season. The defense did what we asked them to do on Sunday except for pressure the QB. The problem was that Miami threw the ball on 3 step drops and we put our corners 10 yards off the ball. Not even the best pass rushing teams are going to get sacks in that situation.

Ronnie Brown had 57 yards on 22 carries. We forced 2 fumbles and an INT. The defense was better than subpar. If we had put Miami into a position (by scoring points) that they had to throw the ball down field, we'd know better how the pass rush would have done. I suspect it would have been good considering their OL is not very good.

The entire tempo of the game played into Miami's hands.

Well that's just wonderful. Maybe we can play 10 yards off the ball again this week and maybe we won't pressure the QB again.

Maybe the D better change some things up and quit giving up huge chunks of yardage and making people like Frerotte look an All-Pro. Thank god we had some turnovers or it would of been 52-17.

[Rascal]

How many times did the Ravens or Bucs D have to step up when their inept offenses sucked it up when they won the SB? I guarantee you that their D had to contend with similar offensive performances and yet they did pretty well.

[Popps]

Not to mention, who cares about yards? I thought points were what mattered. You defense bashers like to cherry pick which stats are meaningful and when...

Well, take your pick, Taco. Our defense is raked near the bottom of the league in every category right now. They gave up 34 pts and we lost.

But, great effort guys... that's all we ask of you.

[Taco John]

We only stopped ONE ****ING DRIVE in the first half,


Dude, why do you keep saying that. You've already been proven wrong. Just admit you're wrong. Repeating it isn't going to make it true.

[Bronco9798]

Not to mention, who cares about yards? I thought points were what mattered. You defense bashers like to cherry pick which stats are meaningful and when...

Stats are for trivia and historians. They can be very misleading.

[Taco John]

How many times did the Ravens or Bucs D have to step up when their inept offenses sucked it up when they won the SB? I guarantee you that their D had to contend with similar offensive performances and yet they did pretty well.


Look what happened to the Ravens Sunday night against the Colts when their offense didn't help out. The Ravens defense played awesome, but eventually the damn is going to burst if your offense can't sustain a drive.

[Popps]

How many times did the Ravens or Bucs D have to step up when their inept offenses sucked it up when they won the SB? I guarantee you that their D had to contend with similar offensive performances and yet they did pretty well.

And... BINGO, yet again.

The Ravens defense shut down Manning and Co. for three quarters on Sunday night. THAT'S a defensive performance. (We gave up something like 45 pts in the same time span last we saw them.)

Believe me, Rascal.... our defense could have given up 100 points in the first quarter and we'd still have Spinny and pals pointing the finger at Plummer.

[Rascal]

And look at the difference between the Dolphins offense and the Colts offense.

If the Ravens had played the Dolphins with similar offense performance I guarantee you that their D would not have given up 34 points.

I'm not saying it's the D's fault for our loss, but their performance is still cause for concern.

[Taco John]

Well, take your pick, Taco. Our defense is raked near the bottom of the league in every category right now.


Yeah? Where is our offense ranked? You telling me it's anywhere near the top?

[Mile High Shack]

Get em' Med. Fellow Maners, let this venom before the real problem... the O.

I HAVE!!!!!!!!

damn, it's like people think b/c I'm not thrilled with our defense, I am blaming them.

Our offense caused our defense to be on the field too long and they lost the game for us (offense)

c'mon people, don't let your love of Coyer blind your eyes to what I'm saying

COYER IS NOT ABOVE CRITICISM

just as Kubes is not

just as Shanny is not

damn, can I be disappointed in the blitzing "schemes" and defensive secondary coverage and lack of pressure on the QB ALONG with how bad our offense played?

this was a coyer thread..no?

[Popps]

Look what happened to the Ravens Sunday night against the Colts when their offense didn't help out. The Ravens defense played awesome, but eventually the damn is going to burst if your offense can't sustain a drive.

Difference being, the Ravens bottled up one of the best offenses in league history. We couldn't stop what will likely be one of this year's worst.

[Taco John]

And look at the difference between the Dolphins offense and the Colts offense?

If the Ravens had played the Dolphins with similar offense performance I guarantee you that their D would not have given up 34 points.


Our defense didn't give up 34 points.

[bloodsunday]

Actually, pressuring the QB was the main thing we went into this season asking our D to do.

They didn't do that.
Because Gus only held the ball for about 2 seconds. What part of that don't you get? If we had lined DJ up in the Miami backfield we could have sacked him in under 2 seconds, but that's about it.

They also couldn't stop but ONE Miami drive in the first half, and couldn't stop them on 3rd down.

So, as long as we're not asking our defense to stop anyone or pressure the QB, they play great.
Where do you get this crap? Here is the driver chart.
http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/drives/NFL_20050911_DEN@MIA

Miami scored 6 pts in the first half. They scored on 2 drives (both field goals) on 6 attempts. That's 4 stops. The 3rd downs were a problem, but that was a bad game plan by our D. Coyer lined up the DBs so deep that he was conceeding 7 - 10 yards, ASSUMING the DB made the tackle.

[Bronx33]

Actually, pressuring the QB was the main thing we went into this season asking our D to do.

They didn't do that.

They also couldn't stop but ONE Miami drive in the first half, and couldn't stop them on 3rd down.

So, as long as we're not asking our defense to stop anyone or pressure the QB, they play great.

Seems to me after the O keeped putting the D back on the field over and over they got a little tired (go figure)

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/playbyplay/NFL_20050911_DEN@MIA

[Rascal]

Our defense didn't give up 34 points.

Fine 27.

[Popps]

Yeah? Where is our offense ranked? You telling me it's anywhere near the top?

No, actually... I'm saying that our offense sucked, too. Difference is, I'm not trying to spin it to make some bizarre, misguided point like you are.

Our defense was garbage. Our offense was garbage.

I know you're hard for Jake, but you'll have to get over it. It's not his fault we can't stop anyone.

[Rascal]

I HAVE!!!!!!!!

damn, it's like people think b/c I'm not thrilled with our defense, I am blaming them.

Our offense caused our defense to be on the field too long and they lost the game for us (offense)

c'mon people, don't let your love of Coyer blind your eyes to what I'm saying

COYER IS NOT ABOVE CRITICISM

just as Kubes is not

just as Shanny is not

damn, can I be disappointed in the blitzing "schemes" and defensive secondary coverage and lack of pressure on the QB ALONG with how bad our offense played?

this was a coyer thread..no?

Bingo!!

[Bronco9798]

Seems to me after the O keeped putting the D back on the field over and over they got a little tired (go figure)

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/playbyplay/NFL_20050911_DEN@MIA


The Defense kept themselves on the field. They gave up 148 yards in the 1st quarter. If it wasn't for the turnovers, Miami was owning us in the 1st half.

[Mile High Shack]

if Gus was throwing slants all day

wouldn't a D coordinator adjust to that?

[Popps]

Seems to me after the O keeped putting the D back on the field over and over they got a little tired (go figure)

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/playbyplay/NFL_20050911_DEN@MIA

Yea.... actaully, Miami's "O" did the same thing to them... only difference was, their defense came out and played even BETTER in the second half. Ours came out and continued to suck arse.

[Popps]

The Defense kept themselves on the field. They gave up 148 yards in the 1st quarter. If it wasn't for the turnovers, Miami was owning us in the 1st half.

... and about 70 yards in penalties. Don't forget the gift-wrapped INT.

[bloodsunday]

Well that's just wonderful. Maybe we can play 10 yards off the ball again this week and maybe we won't pressure the QB again.

Maybe the D better change some things up and quit giving up huge chunks of yardage and making people like Frerotte look an All-Pro. Thank god we had some turnovers or it would of been 52-17.
I agree with you. We need to play more physical on the corners. But despite all the warts on D, they kept us in the game. Period. Our offense ran 40 plays through 3 quarters (8 in the 3rd quarter) and we were down 10 points. The D held its own.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

I know you're hard for Jake,.

He's hard for Coyer.

[bloodsunday]

I missed that... Where did you find that precious gem?
The Monday press conference.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

You guys need to stop arguing. The whole team sucked.

[bloodsunday]

How many times did the Ravens or Bucs D have to step up when their inept offenses sucked it up when they won the SB? I guarantee you that their D had to contend with similar offensive performances and yet they did pretty well.
That's like comparing our Offense to the Chiefs of the Colts. Its simply not fair. This team has no dominant unit and relies on both units working together.

[Bronco9798]

You guys need to stop arguing. The whole team sucked.

That's about right. But no Rep for you!!! lol.....

[Taco John]

No, actually... I'm saying that our offense sucked, too. Difference is, I'm not trying to spin it to make some bizarre, misguided point like you are.

Our defense was garbage. Our offense was garbage.

I know you're hard for Jake, but you'll have to get over it. It's not his fault we can't stop anyone.



Ha! Bizarre miguided point!

Since when does "our offense needs to score points in order to win games" a bizarre misguided point?

I promise you that if our offense sputters and continues to put our defense on the field for drive after drive without giving them a chance to get some fluids in them and catch their breath, we're going to be on the wrong end of a lot of high scoring games.

[Bronx33]

The Defense kept themselves on the field. They gave up 148 yards in the 1st quarter. If it wasn't for the turnovers, Miami was owning us in the 1st half.


All three of denvers possessions were punts in the first quarter alone? i don't know about you but the offense running some time off the clock would sure help a D rest. (i may be wrong) but i'am not.

[bloodsunday]

I HAVE!!!!!!!!

damn, it's like people think b/c I'm not thrilled with our defense, I am blaming them.

Our offense caused our defense to be on the field too long and they lost the game for us (offense)

c'mon people, don't let your love of Coyer blind your eyes to what I'm saying

COYER IS NOT ABOVE CRITICISM

just as Kubes is not

just as Shanny is not

damn, can I be disappointed in the blitzing "schemes" and defensive secondary coverage and lack of pressure on the QB ALONG with how bad our offense played?

this was a coyer thread..no?

No one is above criticism. This debate (in my mind) is about which unit is most responsible for the loss on Sunday. I am not going to pretend our D is as dominant as Baltimore's. Its simply not true. But that's like saying the expectation of our offense is that it performs like Indy or KC. Also not fair. Both units need to play better, but in the end the D gave us a chance Sunday and the offense left em gasping for air.

[Tombstone RJ]

The D was NOT the problem last week.....................


The D was not the MAIN problem last week. But it was problematic.

[bloodsunday]

if Gus was throwing slants all day

wouldn't a D coordinator adjust to that?
No doubt he should have. And yet he gave up 13 points through 3 quarters.

[Rascal]

That's like comparing our Offense to the Chiefs of the Colts. Its simply not fair. This team has no dominant unit and relies on both units working together.

How is not fair? It's the NFL are we suppose to stop the game because it isn't fair? Their offense is too good that's not fair!!!!

Exactly...this team has no dominant unit period and that is the problem. We are an average team across the board.

I don't care if the defense is out there for an entire 60 minutes...giving up 27 points to the dolphins is not good.

[Popps]

This team has no dominant unit and relies on both units working together.

Well, you're getting closer to the truth.

But, if you believe the old adage about winning championships with defense and the running game, those are areas where we have to focus.

Plummer is NOT the kind of QB that's going to make it happen on his own. He can, however... make plays outside of the offense, is elusive and as we saw last year, has the potential to put up good numbers and yes, win games. (10 wins last two seasons.)

But, until we draft a QB stud, we're stuck with him... and should be shaping our team accordingly. The running game needs to be our heart and soul, and our D needed to improve vastly. (on last year.) We did neither on Sunday.

[Bronco9798]

All three of denvers possessions were punts in the first quarter alone? i don't know about you but the offense running some time off the clock would sure help a D rest. (i may be wrong) but i'am not.

Dude, 148 yards in the first quarter alone. Playing 10 yards off the ball and letting Frerotte dink and dunk all day long is no way to play Defense. If the D wants off the field, they also need to help themselves and make their own 3 and outs. Yeah, they stopped Miami with the turnovers but Miami was moving the ball at will against us in the 1st half. Only 6 points, I agree but that only because of the turnovers.

[RaiderH8r]

The whole team stunk up the joint, and when the whole team plays so very far below their ability the blame goes to the coaches. Piss poor trickle down fubar prep and play bit the squad in the ass.

Also, I hate East coast early games, they always seem to put a funk on the Broncos.

[Taco John]

if Gus was throwing slants all day

wouldn't a D coordinator adjust to that?



Yeah, he could have put Champ up a bit closer... Oh wait... Champ was injured... Well then, he could have at least put walls up closer.... Oh wait... Walls was injured.

He could have put Sam Brandon up closer? Oh look. Sam just got burned deep.

[Mile High Shack]

No doubt he should have. And yet he gave up 13 points through 3 quarters.
I know….which I was surprised that we allowed only 13 points, which was good

It seems our D starts to tighten up around the red zone, but I can’t understand why they don’t play tighter so our offense can get better field position?

I know Coyer’s philosophy is to make them beat you deep, but when they keep throwing short slants in front of you for 1st downs all game long, eventually you have to adjust, no?

I’m not blaming the defense for the loss, I’m just pointing out things that concern me for when we play a real offense.

[Bronx33]

The whole team stunk up the joint, and when the whole team plays so very far below their ability the blame goes to the coaches. Piss poor trickle down fubar prep and play bit the squad in the ass.

Also, I hate East coast early games, they always seem to put a funk on the Broncos.

Roger that! the funny part is KC will have to it OCT 23 in the heat box for an early game (that should prove interesting)

[Mile High Shack]

Yeah, he could have put Champ up a bit closer... Oh wait... Champ was injured... Well then, he could have at least put walls up closer.... Oh wait... Walls was injured.

He could have put Sam Brandon up closer? Oh look. Sam just got burned deep.

I'm talking during the 1st half too

if it wasn't for stupid penalties committed by the Phish, they could've had 2 more FGs I think

again, not blaming the defense, just pointing out causes for concern when we play teams like KC and Oakland and NE, teams with good offenses

I can see Tom Brady eating us up all day with 3 yard hooks that go for 7 yards after the catch

[Rascal]

Well, you're getting closer to the truth.

But, if you believe the old adage about winning championships with defense and the running game, those are areas where we have to focus.

Plummer is NOT the kind of QB that's going to make it happen on his own. He can, however... make plays outside of the offense, is elusive and as we saw last year, has the potential to put up good numbers and yes, win games. (10 wins last two seasons.)

But, until we draft a QB stud, we're stuck with him... and should be shaping our team accordingly. The running game needs to be our heart and soul, and our D needed to improve vastly. (on last year.) We did neither on Sunday.

BINGO!!!

Our running game is a shell of what it once was because the o-line sucks...plain and simple. Because of that Jake is forced to win games on his own when the running game faulters. Sorry but Jake is not that kind of QB. If you want that kind of QB you need to go get McNabb, Culpepper, or Manning. BTW two of those QB's lost this weekend because they couldn't run the ball either.

You want to fix this team...you start up front with the o-line. You get a good o-line and the talks about Plummer and the offensive problems are going to go away very quickly.

[bloodsunday]

How is not fair? It's the NFL are we suppose to stop the game because it isn't fair? Their offense is too good that's not fair!!!!
Wow talk about out of context.... We don't emphasize D the way that Baltimore does from our coaching to our personnel selections to our game planning. We don't have a HOF LB. We don't have 3 Pro Bowl DBs. I would love it if our D could play at that level, but I was never dillusional to believe it would in the first place. I expect our D to play to the tempo of our system. Keep the opposing team off the board and give our offense a chance to put em away. Even the great Baltimore D crumbled when the O couldn't come through.

[Bronco9798]

Yeah, he could have put Champ up a bit closer... Oh wait... Champ was injured... Well then, he could have at least put walls up closer.... Oh wait... Walls was injured.

He could have put Sam Brandon up closer? Oh look. Sam just got burned deep.

This is 1st half TJ. Thank god Lenny got some cramps I'd hate to embarrass him anymore.

(12:48) G.Frerotte pass to M.Booker pushed ob at MIA 30 for 8 yards (L.Walls).

7:37) G.Frerotte pass to D.Boston ran ob at DEN 13 for 8 yards (L.Walls).

3:39) G.Frerotte pass incomplete to M.Booker (L.Walls).

2:58) (Shotgun) G.Frerotte pass to M.Booker to MIA 33 for 9 yards (L.Walls).

2:11) G.Frerotte pass to M.Booker to MIA 38 for 10 yards (L.Walls).

I even threw in an incompletion for him.

[Mile High Shack]

BINGO!!!

Our running game is a shell of what it once was because the o-line sucks...plain and simple. Because of that Jake is forced to win games on his own when the running game faulters. Sorry but Jake is not that kind of QB. If you want that kind of QB you need to go get McNabb, Culpepper, or Manning. BTW two of those QB's lost this weekend because they couldn't run the ball either.

You want to fix this team...you start up front with the o-line. You get a good o-line and the talks about Plummer and the offensive problems are going to go away very quickly.

I think we said this during the reign of SOB...lol :poke:

[RaiderH8r]

Roger that! the funny part is KC will have to it OCT 23 in the heat box for an early game (that should prove interesting)
No sh!t. I hate playing in FL. I do not look forward to playing Jax. I hope the funk will have passed.

[Popps]

Ha! Bizarre miguided point!

Since when does "our offense needs to score points in order to win games" a bizarre misguided point?


No Spinny, blaming 34 points allowed in the first half at Indy on Plummer is misguided. Your skewed version of what happened on Sunday is just a continuation. Something I'm guessing we're going to have to endure around here all season long.

[Taco John]

BINGO!!!

Our running game is a shell of what it once was because the o-line sucks...plain and simple. Because of that Jake is forced to win games on his own when the running game faulters. Sorry but Jake is not that kind of QB. If you want that kind of QB you need to go get McNabb, Culpepper, or Manning. BTW two of those QB's lost this weekend because they couldn't run the ball either.

You want to fix this team...you start up front with the o-line. You get a good o-line and the talks about Plummer and the offensive problems are going to go away very quickly.



Our running game is a shell of what it once was because defenses know that they can stack as many guys in the box as they want and Jake won't be able to beat them with his arm. And despite that, we still had 52 rushing yards in the first half.

[Mile High Shack]

This is 1st half TJ. Thank god Lenny got some cramps I'd hate to embarrass him anymore.

(12:48) G.Frerotte pass to M.Booker pushed ob at MIA 30 for 8 yards (L.Walls).

7:37) G.Frerotte pass to D.Boston ran ob at DEN 13 for 8 yards (L.Walls).

3:39) G.Frerotte pass incomplete to M.Booker (L.Walls).

2:58) (Shotgun) G.Frerotte pass to M.Booker to MIA 33 for 9 yards (L.Walls).

2:11) G.Frerotte pass to M.Booker to MIA 38 for 10 yards (L.Walls).
Reason 586 why I think Walls sucks as a CB

[Rascal]

Wow talk about out of context.... We don't emphasize D the way that Baltimore does from our coaching to our personnel selections to our game planning. We don't have a HOF LB. We don't have 3 Pro Bowl DBs. I would love it if our D could play at that level, but I was never dillusional to believe it would in the first place. I expect our D to play to the tempo of our system. Keep the opposing team off the board and give our offense a chance to put em away. Even the great Baltimore D crumbled when the O couldn't come through.

Did they keep the dolphins off the board? I didn't think so.

[Taco John]

No Spinny, blaming 34 points allowed in the first half at Indy on Plummer is misguided. Your skewed version of what happened on Sunday is just a continuation. Something I'm guessing we're going to have to endure around here all season long.

Indeed. I'm afraid that our offense is going to suck this season as well.

[Tombstone RJ]

Reason 586 why I think Walls sucks as a CB

CBs are gonna get used when the dline can't pressure the QB. Hell, just look at Champ's problems last year...

[bloodsunday]

Well, you're getting closer to the truth.

But, if you believe the old adage about winning championships with defense and the running game, those are areas where we have to focus.
We won 2 championships with an unstoppable Offense. We have a head coach that is from the offensive side of the ball.

Plummer is NOT the kind of QB that's going to make it happen on his own. He can, however... make plays outside of the offense, is elusive and as we saw last year, has the potential to put up good numbers and yes, win games. (10 wins last two seasons.)
10 wins is loser's lament. He has the potential to put up good numbers after he puts us in a hole by throwing picks. He is not elusive.

But, until we draft a QB stud, we're stuck with him... and should be shaping our team accordingly. The running game needs to be our heart and soul, and our D needed to improve vastly. (on last year.) We did neither on Sunday.
I don't disagree with you on this point. But your expectations of our defense are too high based on the way this team has been shaped, IMO. Shanny emphasizes balance in how he draft and construct this team. We don't emphasize D enough to make it truly dominant like a Baltimore. There are only a handful of teams that good and I never believed we were one of them.

[Mile High Shack]

CBs are gonna get used when the dline can't pressure the QB. Hell, just look at Champ's problems last year...

walls gets used every week IMO

he isn't quick enough to play CB every down

[Taco John]

Bottom line... If we're going to win games, it looks like we're expecting our defense to do it for us. We need turnovers and our defense needs to put points on the board.

[Mile High Shack]

Bottom line... If we're going to win games, it looks like we're expecting our defense to do it for us. We need turnovers and our defense needs to put points on the board.

with Jake and our oline

you are right

[bloodsunday]

BINGO!!!

Our running game is a shell of what it once was because the o-line sucks...plain and simple. Because of that Jake is forced to win games on his own when the running game faulters. Sorry but Jake is not that kind of QB. If you want that kind of QB you need to go get McNabb, Culpepper, or Manning. BTW two of those QB's lost this weekend because they couldn't run the ball either.

You want to fix this team...you start up front with the o-line. You get a good o-line and the talks about Plummer and the offensive problems are going to go away very quickly.
What's the value of a running game. Oh that's right it protects a defense. It keeps the offense on the field. That's why they go hand in hand. That's why the D did a good job of keeping us in the game considering the circumstances.

[Tombstone RJ]

walls gets used every week IMO

he isn't quick enough to play CB every down

Walls does make good plays too. But, until the Broncos start putting a more consistent pass rush together, and hopefully, Courtney Brown coming back will help, I'm not gonna come down on Walls too hard. Not yet. :blowhorn:

[RaiderH8r]

CBs are gonna get used when the dline can't pressure the QB. Hell, just look at Champ's problems last year...
And rules that pretty much amputate CB's at the wrists don't help in coverage either. God help us if Pay-me-a-ton doesn't win his SB ring this year, we'll have Stephen Hawking out there for coverage because you won't be able to run with a WR past 8 yds downfield without getting a penalty.

[Bronco9798]

Bottom line... If we're going to win games, it looks like we're expecting our defense to do it for us. We need turnovers and our defense needs to put points on the board.


Panic Mode. Not yet. We'll get better and everybody will forget this game hopefully. We can't rely on either side of the ball to win games for us. This team has to win together and they failed Sunday. That's really all there is to it.

[Popps]

Our running game is a shell of what it once was because defenses know that they can stack as many guys in the box as they want and Jake won't be able to beat them with his arm. And despite that, we still had 52 rushing yards in the first half.

Sure, just so happened that our WRs couldn't get open all day... and when they did, they dropped balls. (See Assley Lelie for 14 points down the drain.)

Plummer had guys in his face all day long and our receivers were blanketed... that on top of a run game going nowhere.

Does our offense suck? It sure did on Sunday. Then again, Miami had a REAL defense out there kicking our asses. Something we Bronco fans haven't had in years.

[Taco John]

with Jake and our oline

you are right


...just like I said years ago, especially with regards to the Oline.

"It won't matter who we put under center if we don't upgrade our Oline."

Remember that?

The response from Popps:

"Fking clueless. Griese is the problem. We don't have any problems that a mobile quarteback can't fix."

[bloodsunday]

I think we said this during the reign of SOB...lol :poke:
I've been criticized for saying this all preseason. The offense being bad is not a novel concept to most of us.

[bloodsunday]

Does our offense suck? It sure did on Sunday. Then again, Miami had a REAL defense out there kicking our asses. Something we Bronco fans haven't had in years.
Do you believe that had our offense been able to muster up anything at all that we could have won that game with our defensive performance? Let's say the offense puts up 14 points in the first half. Did our defense play well enough, in your opinion, to win that game?

[Tombstone RJ]

Blaming the oline at this point is premature. Plummer is a mobil QB for a reason. Please don't make me explain that reason...

[Rascal]

Our running game is a shell of what it once was because defenses know that they can stack as many guys in the box as they want and Jake won't be able to beat them with his arm. And despite that, we still had 52 rushing yards in the first half.

Wow...52 rushing yards in the first half. Remember the good old days when TD would rush for 52 yards in a quarter. It's amazing how people have grown to accept mediocrity from the running game!!!!

MA...3 yards
MA -1
MA 3 yards
MA 0
Bell 30
Bell 4
Bell -2
Bell 1
Bell 4
Bell 0
Bell 0
Bell -1
Bell 4

We have one run of 30 yards or more and the rest were nothing. Does three yards a cloud of dust sound familiar.

8 or nine people in the box...and you honestly don't think that teams stacked the line when TD was running for thousands or yards??? I doubt that.

[Popps]

...just like I said years ago, especially with regards to the Oline.

"It won't matter who we put under center if we don't upgrade our Oline."

Remember that?

The response from Popps:

"Fking clueless. Griese is the problem. We don't have any problems that a mobile quarteback can't fix."

Good lord, I knew if I waited long enough... you'd bring your boyfriend back into it. They guy's been gone for years, and you're still bringing him up? It's almost disturbing.

Griese was an utter disaster, and yea... Shanahan's offense is MUCH better with a mobile QB. Steve Young or John Elway ring a bell? Our offense wasn't designed for a slow, weak-armed QB. Plummer was at least a step in the right direction.

Why couldn't we sign Plummer... AND improve the line? Why can it only be one or the other in your imaginary spin-land?

Griese's gone, dude. Have a good cry and get on with your life.

[Tombstone RJ]

Wow...52 rushing yards in the first half. Remember the good old days when TD would rush for 52 yards in a quarter. It's amazing how people have grown to accept mediocrity from the running game!!!!

MA...3 yards
MA -1
MA 3 yards
MA 0
Bell 30
Bell 4
Bell -2
Bell 1
Bell 4
Bell 0
Bell 0
Bell -1
Bell 4

We have one run of 30 yards or more and the rest were nothing. Does three yards a cloud of dust sound familiar.

8 or nine people in the box...and you honestly don't think that teams stacked the line when TD was running for thousands or yards??? I doubt that.

I'd say this is more of an anomoly than a sign of major oline problems. Also, I think its more of an indication of how good the Phins defense was. The Broncos were not ready to play.

[Popps]

Do you believe that had our offense been able to muster up anything at all that we could have won that game with our defensive performance? Let's say the offense puts up 14 points in the first half. Did our defense play well enough, in your opinion, to win that game?

I think if we would have put the 14 points on the board that we left out there... we would have had 17 or so by the half, and sure... that creates a different scenario. Lelie single-handedly (no pun intended) cost us a half-time lead. It's hard to say what our defense would have done.

Again, I'm not taking blame from the offense... they sucked, too. Just spreading it around evenly, as it should be.

[Taco John]

Wow...52 rushing yards in the first half. Remember the good old days when TD would rush for 52 yards in a quarter. It's amazing how people have grown to accept mediocrity from the running game!!!!

MA...3 yards
MA -1
MA 3 yards
MA 0
Bell 30
Bell 4
Bell -2
Bell 1
Bell 4
Bell 0
Bell 0
Bell -1
Bell 4

We have one run of 30 yards or more and the rest were nothing. Does three yards a cloud of dust sound familiar.

8 or nine people in the box...and you honestly don't think that teams stacked the line when TD was running for thousands or yards??? I doubt that.


nice stuff but it does nothing to deter my point. If a team can stack 8 or 9 guys in the box and you can't make them pay for doing it by going downfiled, the problem isn't the running game.

[Popps]

nice stuff but it does nothing to deter my point. If a team can stack 8 or 9 guys in the box and you can't make them pay for doing it by going downfiled, the problem isn't the running game.

Somehow they managed to stack 8 in the box, and blanket our WRs. Watch the tape, Taco. Then again, when our receivers did get open... they dropped the ball, anyway.

[Rascal]

IMO the solution is simple to fix the offense and thus the large portion of the problems of this team. Fix the o-line. The fact that Carlisle is starting is till a complete joke to me. Hamilton is an average at best guard (don't know about center) and Nalen is I'm sorry to say not his former self.

Remember those goal line plays against the dolphins when we brough in Warren, House, Green, etc? How did we do on those plays? We got nowhere. You know why? Because the dolphins like everybody else in the league knows that the interior of the line is pathetic and the will rush everybody up the middle and there isn't a thing we can do to stop them.

Remember when I got blasted on this board for critizing shanny for signing a midget LB instead of some top FA guards like Demulling or those packer guards? There was a reason for that. I've played this game long enough on the line to recognize a problem on the line and how to exploit it...unfortunately Shanny decided to give Coyer some new toys.

[Taco John]

Good lord, I knew if I waited long enough... you'd bring your boyfriend back into it. They guy's been gone for years, and you're still bringing him up? It's almost disturbing.

Dude, you brought him up the other day, what are you talking about?

Griese was an utter disaster, and yea... Shanahan's offense is MUCH better with a mobile QB. Steve Young or John Elway ring a bell? Our offense wasn't designed for a slow, weak-armed QB. Plummer was at least a step in the right direction.


Griese was a bad quarterback. He needs an offensive line to protect him in order to get the most out of him. Which is why I spent all that time arguing in favor of upgrading the offensive line.



Why couldn't we sign Plummer... AND improve the line? Why can it only be one or the other in your imaginary spin-land?

It's a good question. But apparently, we didn't, did we. I'm guessing salary cap has a lot to do with it. What is your guess?



Griese's gone, dude. Have a good cry and get on with your life.

Yes he is. But the offenses problems didn't leave with him, did they.

I guess I was right this whole time.

[bloodsunday]

I think if we would have put the 14 points on the board that we left out there... we would have had 17 or so by the half, and sure... that creates a different scenario. Lelie single-handedly (no pun intended) cost us a half-time lead. It's hard to say what our defense would have done.

Again, I'm not taking blame from the offense... they sucked, too. Just spreading it around evenly, as it should be.
Since you answered yes then I think we are seeing things pretty similarly. The whole team did suck. And while its a worthless point, I think the O sucked more. I never believed that our D was going to be as good as Baltimore's. I also don't believe our O will be as good as KC or Indy. Both units are going to have to be good for this team to win.

BUT... if you can guarantee me 2 turnovers and 6 points in the first half, I'll take that production from our D all season long. I'll sign the papers today.

[Taco John]

Somehow they managed to stack 8 in the box, and blanket our WRs. Watch the tape, Taco. Then again, when our receivers did get open... they dropped the ball, anyway.


I'd like to watch the tape. You can't see it all on TV. I'm betting there were receivers open.

[bloodsunday]

Somehow they managed to stack 8 in the box, and blanket our WRs. Watch the tape, Taco. Then again, when our receivers did get open... they dropped the ball, anyway.
So you agree that the offense had the worse day?

[Rascal]

My point is this...the defense performed decently. They still gave up 27 points to a pathetic dolphins offense and I don't care how long they were on the field. Had they not been on the field for that long then there is a decent chance they perform better. But the reality is that our offensive line is going to have problems all year and we are not going to be able to run the ball at will and this is going to put a lot of pressure on the defense. They had better get in shape because they are going to be in for a lot of running.

Maybe now people we agree with me when I blast Shanny for not picking up a guard instead of wasting our cap space on some midget LB that we don't really need.

[Tombstone RJ]

IMO the solution is simple to fix the offense and thus the large portion of the problems of this team. Fix the o-line. The fact that Carlisle is starting is till a complete joke to me. Hamilton is an average at best guard (don't know about center) and Nalen is I'm sorry to say not his former self.

Remember those goal line plays against the dolphins when we brough in Warren, House, Green, etc? How did we do on those plays? We got nowhere. You know why? Because the dolphins like everybody else in the league knows that the interior of the line is pathetic and the will rush everybody up the middle and there isn't a thing we can do to stop them.

Remember when I got blasted on this board for critizing shanny for signing a midget LB instead of some top FA guards like Demulling or those packer guards? There was a reason for that. I've played this game long enough on the line to recognize a problem on the line and how to exploit it...unfortunately Shanny decided to give Coyer some new toys.

The Broncos running has been consistently good over the years. It didn't matter what QB was lining up behind center or if Gibbs was around, or even which RB was the one getting 1000+ yards.

As for the goaline situation, I think the Broncos forced the issue. I was pulling my hair out wondering why the Broncos were running Bell up the middle over and over.

Hey Kubiak, how about some play action? Ever heard of that? :thumbsup:

[bloodsunday]

It's a good question. But apparently, we didn't, did we. I'm guessing salary cap has a lot to do with it. What is your guess?
1) A poor view of what consitutes success and a good system. A 1000 yard rusher does not by itself make your OL dominant or your offense good. Same with a 4000 yard passer.
2) Wasted picks.
3) Too much churn on the roster. This team bangs out 20 - 25 new players a year. There is no continuity and no chance to develop young guys. Every season is a clean slate in a sense. Steve Young estimated that you need 1,000 plays as an offense to gain rhythm (about a season's worth). In the span of 16 games we now have one new starter on the OL (Carlisle), a new TE (Alexander), a new FB (Johnson), a new #3 WR (Adams), and about 4 RBs. On defense its much worse.

[Popps]

I guess I was right this whole time.

Hilarious.

You were right about nothing. You defended Griese's skills and deflected all criticism to other areas of the team.

... and actually, our defense has had the same problems, too. Sometimes problems just stick around.

[Rascal]

The Broncos running has been consistently good over the years. It didn't matter what QB was lining up behind center or if Gibbs was around, or even which RB was the one getting 1000+ yards.

As for the goaline situation, I think the Broncos forced the issue. I was pulling my hair out wondering why the Broncos were running Bell up the middle over and over.

Hey Kubiak, how about some play action? Ever heard of that? :thumbsup:

We have been good from a stats point of view in being able to get the yards (mostly in clumps). Think about this for a moment...why do you think we have sucked at the red zone and third down situations for since the SB? It isn't the QB's and it isn't the RB's.

Play calling was obviously a problem as well but unfortunately Kubes will stay as long as Shanny stays and even then he will probably be promoted.

[bloodsunday]

My point is this...the defense performed decently. They still gave up 27 points to a pathetic dolphins offense and I don't care how long they were on the field. Had they not been on the field for that long then there is a decent chance they perform better. But the reality is that our offensive line is going to have problems all year and we are not going to be able to run the ball at will and this is going to put a lot of pressure on the defense. They had better get in shape because they are going to be in for a lot of running.
Yeah they had better be prepared to carry this team... but I don't think they are. If the offense doesn't pick it up, prepare for a long season and much of the same as what we saw Sunday.

Maybe now people we agree with me when I blast Shanny for not picking up a guard instead of wasting our cap space on some midget LB that we don't really need.
Where were all the OL bashers a month ago? Man I got blasted for saying this. People were so in love with our DBs during camp that they wouldn't have cared if we could have drafted Gary Zimmerman instead. I imagine those same people love our DBs more now because they all cramped up while our offense didn't move the ball.

[Rascal]

Yeah they had better be prepared to carry this team... but I don't think they are. If the offense doesn't pick it up, prepare for a long season and much of the same as what we saw Sunday.


Where were all the OL bashers a month ago? Man I got blasted for saying this. People were so in love with our DBs during camp that they wouldn't have cared if we could have drafted Gary Zimmerman instead. I imagine those same people love our DBs more now because they all cramped up while our offense didn't move the ball.

Yeap. Not sure I want to watch the Ravens, NE, Jags, Eagles, Skins, etc games because they have good d-lines. The sad thing is that the Dolphins d-line isn't even that big and we still got manhandled.

I've been blasting the o-line for a long time.

Ask Shack. Last year I was yelling all season long at their performance.

[bloodsunday]

... and actually, our defense has had the same problems, too. Sometimes problems just stick around.
That's an interesting question: why have the problems stuck around? Is it because of the organization (Shanny) or is it because of some other reason? Shanny's career in Denver is marked by two eras the first 5 years and the last 5. Not much to cheer about in the last 5 years (unless you are happy with a borderline playoff team). But what happened to the mastermind of the first 5 years.

[Tombstone RJ]

My point is this...the defense performed decently. They still gave up 27 points to a pathetic dolphins offense and I don't care how long they were on the field. Had they not been on the field for that long then there is a decent chance they perform better. But the reality is that our offensive line is going to have problems all year and we are not going to be able to run the ball at will and this is going to put a lot of pressure on the defense. They had better get in shape because they are going to be in for a lot of running.

Maybe now people we agree with me when I blast Shanny for not picking up a guard instead of wasting our cap space on some midget LB that we don't really need.

I see your point, kinda. The defense did not play well. Period. You can sugar coat it all you want but the defense did not have a good game.

As for the oline, sure, it COULD be upgraded, but why? Until the Broncos prove to me that they have a major problem with the oline (not ONE GAME) and they can't run the ball consistently, then I'll be all for major upgrades to the oline. But until then, I'm more for fixing the DEFENSIVE LINE....

[Popps]

So you agree that the offense had the worse day?

I wouldn't go that far. Both were bad. The thing about it is, our offense played a very good defense who really came to play on Sunday. Our defense played against (arguably) the worst offense we'll see all season.

[bloodsunday]

I've been blasting the o-line for a long time.

Ask Shack. Last year I was yelling all season long at their performance.
I believe you, but man people got on my case. Now all of a sudden we have a bad game and people go... uh-oh. It's just funny how many more people share your non-homer opinion when the team loses than wins.

[Traveler]

Much blame for all three facets of team! And esome very some solid takes. My question is this. Does anyone else have a problem with the fact that we take players and try to make them fit a scheme instead of the other way around? Both our offensive and defensive philosophies are becoming almost laughable and predictable at best.

Indy designs schemes that highlight what Peyton does best. Same with Baltimore and Ray Lewis. Why don't we do the same? Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Taco John]

I guess I was right this whole time.

Hilarious.

You were right about nothing. You defended Griese's skills and deflected all criticism to other areas of the team.

... and actually, our defense has had the same problems, too. Sometimes problems just stick around.


The only skill of Griese's I defended was his ability to read the field when given time. I also made comparisons of what his play was like when he had a left tackle worth a damn, and when he didn't. The difference was significant.

Other than that, there wasn't much to defend. What I said, over and over and over again was that he was an average quarterback who needed an above average offensive line in order to get the most out of him. And since we were committed to him via the salary cap, I was in favor of bringing in some competition for him either through the draft or free agency. I further stated, over and over again that it won't really matter who we put under center if we don't upgrade our offensive line.

Now with Plummer, I am saying the same thing. I advocated that we bring in competition to push Plummer, or even replace him if the competition should win the job. I am always in favor of improving the offensive line, as I believe that is where games are *really* won. I belive that you can have an average quarterback under center if that quarterback is give protection.

[RaiderH8r]

nice stuff but it does nothing to deter my point. If a team can stack 8 or 9 guys in the box and you can't make them pay for doing it by going downfiled, the problem isn't the running game.
When your speed receiver that is supposed to stretch the field is playing like Eddie "Skillet Mits" Quitterson it's tough to make them pay. ***Vomit*** we just need all around better performance from the offense. We need players to make the routine plays and we win that game. ***vomit*** Maybe it was game one jitters and a case of the quicksand eating up the harder they tried. I don't know much, but I know they'll be better this week. They'd have to work damn hard not to be.

[bloodsunday]

I wouldn't go that far. Both were bad. The thing about it is, our offense played a very good defense who really came to play on Sunday. Our defense played against (arguably) the worst offense we'll see all season.
This is a good point. The D did play a bad offense, but a bad offense with a good game plan. The D still did something to help us out (TOs). The offense just sat around with their thumb's up their butt.

[Popps]

I'd like to watch the tape. You can't see it all on TV. I'm betting there were receivers open.

True enough, though Jake seemed to be able to find open receivers last year. (Yes, I realize sometimes they played for the other team.) But our receivers looked as bottled up as I've seen them in some time, on Sun. Plus, Jake had to run for his life on every single play. Of course our o-line needs to be called out. Of course our offense was flat. But that doesn't excuse a poor defensive showing. The football gods were kind enough to keep us within 3 pts at the half, and we came out in the 2nd and stunk it up on both sides of the ball.

[Rascal]

I see your point, kinda. The defense did not play well. Period. You can sugar coat it all you want but the defense did not have a good game.

As for the oline, sure, it COULD be upgraded, but why? Until the Broncos prove to me that they have a major problem with the oline (not ONE GAME) and they can't run the ball consistently, then I'll be all for major upgrades to the oline. But until then, I'm more for fixing the DEFENSIVE LINE....

I agree.

If it was upgraded then we would be able to run the ball effectively, thus taking the pressure off of Plummer to perform like Manning and the defense to shut teams out. The d-line is still gelling together through all their offseason moves so I'm not giving up on them yet. But the offensive line has been together as unit for a while now and they have yet to be able to get the tough yards when needed. Remember that goal line situation? Our third down % on third and short when we run the ball? Our goal line % when we run the ball? How many of our TD's in the past in goal line situations have come as a result of running versus passing? The answer may suprise you.

[RaiderH8r]

I believe you, but man people got on my case. Now all of a sudden we have a bad game and people go... uh-oh. It's just funny how many more people share your non-homer opinion when the team loses than wins.
Hey man, it's Wednesday, last day to complain about the last one. Thurs. starts homer week all over again. ;D It'll get better, it better get better, it should get better, tell me it'll get better.

[Rascal]

I believe you, but man people got on my case. Now all of a sudden we have a bad game and people go... uh-oh. It's just funny how many more people share your non-homer opinion when the team loses than wins.

Trust me I know. I received negative rep and insults on a regular basis when I was blasting Shanny for his Gold move instead of picking up players like Demulling and Whaley.

[Tombstone RJ]

Much blame for all three facets of team! And esome very some solid takes. My question is this. Does anyone else have a problem with the fact that we take players and try to make them fit a scheme instead of the other way around? Both our offensive and defensive philosophies are becoming almost laughable and predictable at best.

Indy designs schemes that highlight what Peyton does best. Same with Baltimore and Ray Lewis. Why don't we do the same? Correct me if I'm wrong.

I've been bitching about this for a long time.

[Taco John]

True enough, though Jake seemed to be able to find open receivers last year. (Yes, I realize sometimes they played for the other team.) But our receivers looked as bottled up as I've seen them in some time, on Sun. Plus, Jake had to run for his life on every single play. Of course our o-line needs to be called out. Of course our offense was flat. But that doesn't excuse a poor defensive showing. The football gods were kind enough to keep us within 3 pts at the half, and we came out in the 2nd and stunk it up on both sides of the ball.



I agree with all this except for the last sentance... Our defense kept us withing 3 pts at the half, and we came out in the 2nd and stunk it up on both sides of the ball.

[Popps]

The Now with Plummer, I am saying the same thing. I advocated that we bring in competition to push Plummer, or even replace him if the competition should win the job. I am always in favor of improving the offensive line, as I believe that is where games are *really* won. I belive that you can have an average quarterback under center if that quarterback is give protection.

I was a huge fan of bringing Garcia in. Though, I think there's probably a 6 of one, half-dozen of the other thing going on there. Garcia wouldn't have fared much better on Sunday, that's for sure. Still, I wish we could have landed him.

As for the "average QB" scenario, I still don't agree with that. I think QBs that succeed are usually above average. You couldn't stick an average QB in Indy's offense, or even New England's. Those guys are above average. I truly think Plummer has elements of his game that are above average, as well. But, it's hard to tell when he's getting mauled on every play.
I actually thought he took care of the ball fairly well through 3 quarters, considering the constant pressure and great coverage. He didn't force throws, which is what we've been asking of him. A tight game like that is one that you defense and special teams can really decide for you. Ours decided it, alright.

[bloodsunday]

Trust me I know. I received negative rep and insults on a regular basis when I was blasting Shanny for his Gold move instead of picking up players like Demulling and Whaley.
I was kind of netural on the Gold move until I realized it was the only real FA move we were going to make. I have always felt we have too much depth at DB and LB though. Look at the caliber of guys we had to cut. Is is just me or has Ian been kind of invisible?

I have never waivered on the stance that if I could have one dominant unit on my team it would be the offensive line.

[Popps]

I agree with all this except for the last sentance... Our defense kept us withing 3 pts at the half, and we came out in the 2nd and stunk it up on both sides of the ball.

We're just looking at the same thing, seeing something different. Our D only stopped ONE Miami drive. They (Miami's O) stopped the rest on their own with penalties and dumb turnovers. They were as charitable as they could be.

[Taco John]

Does anyone else have a problem with the fact that we take players and try to make them fit a scheme instead of the other way around?



I have mixed feelings... That Scheme won three Superbowls for Shanahan on two different teams. Look at the success Vermeil is having with his offensive scheme... He won a Superbowl with that Scheme, and KC has had a great offense.

I personally believe in the scheme. Just not all the personnel decisions. I still wish we had a Howard Griffith type prototypical fullback in the scheme. And Lelie isn't as Physical as Ed and Rod.

And Jake is Jake.

[Bronx33]

I'am going to return to being a homer ok........go broncos!

[Tombstone RJ]

I agree.

If it was upgraded then we would be able to run the ball effectively, thus taking the pressure off of Plummer to perform like Manning and the defense to shut teams out. The d-line is still gelling together through all their offseason moves so I'm not giving up on them yet. But the offensive line has been together as unit for a while now and they have yet to be able to get the tough yards when needed. Remember that goal line situation? Our third down % on third and short when we run the ball? Our goal line % when we run the ball? How many of our TD's in the past in goal line situations have come as a result of running versus passing? The answer may suprise you.

I know what your saying. However, I don't think you can reasonably say that this oline has been together as a unit for a while. This oline has gone through alot of changes over this past off season. How they are performing as a unit may be an indication of their need to gell also.

[DBroncos4life]

We're just looking at the same thing, seeing something different. Our D only stopped ONE Miami drive. They (Miami's O) stopped the rest on their own with penalties and dumb turnovers. They were as charitable as they could be.


Call me crazy but dumb turnovers still are the result of the D doing its job.

[bloodsunday]

Funny how I am starting to see some "I agree's" floating around. Eventually the Maners find common ground.

[Rascal]

I was kind of netural on the Gold move until I realized it was the only real FA move we were going to make. I have always felt we have too much depth at DB and LB though. Look at the caliber of guys we had to cut. Is is just me or has Ian been kind of invisible?

I have never waivered on the stance that if I could have one dominant unit on my team it would be the offensive line.

I absolutely hated the Gold signing and every time I see that worthless excuse of a guard try to block it causes me to hate it even more.

Since all of my playing experience has been on the o-line and d-line and been part of both good and bad lines I know that they are easily the most important aspects of a team.

Look at the chiefs offense...does anybody honestly think they would be 1/2 of what they are if they didn't have that line of theirs? Kennison as the #1 WR...that guy wouldn't be a #2 on the majority of teams.

[Evenrude]

Profootballtalk.com is to sports journalism what Oprah Winfrey is to pole vaulting...... **** them.

[Rascal]

I know what your saying. However, I don't think you can reasonably say that this oline has been together as a unit for a while. This oline has gone through alot of changes over this past off season. How they are performing as a unit may be an indication of their need to gell also.

The line went through zero changes this offseason. Carlisle was the starter four weeks before the regular season ended last year.

[Rascal]

Evenrude,

Check your PM's we need to talk.

[bloodsunday]

Look at the chiefs offense...does anybody honestly think they would be 1/2 of what they are if they didn't have that line of theirs? Kennison as the #1 WR...that guy wouldn't be a #2 on the majority of teams.
Yup. No matter how Chef fans spin it, their WR suck. They can only produce because their OL is good and people have to play the run. I still don't think Jake would be the answer, but he would look better behind a dominant OL, especially if it was just to hand off 600 times a season.

[RaiderH8r]

Yup. No matter how Chef fans spin it, their WR suck. They can only produce because their OL is good and people have to play the run. I still don't think Jake would be the answer, but he would look better behind a dominant OL, especially if it was just to hand off 600 times a season.
A great OL lets you do whatever you want. They're the only guys on the field who's job it is to push folks around. And when you can flat out move people you can move the ball.

[Popps]

Call me crazy but dumb turnovers still are the result of the D doing its job.

That's the kind of thinking that got Larry Brown a huge contract in Oakland.

Champ caught a ball Gus threw right to him. That one was on Gus, not Champ.

You're not crazy... I'm just saying that their offense was very charitable to our D.

[Taco John]

We're just looking at the same thing, seeing something different. Our D only stopped ONE Miami drive. They (Miami's O) stopped the rest on their own with penalties and dumb turnovers. They were as charitable as they could be.

Man we had two turnovers... Bailey forced a fumble and got an interception.

[Popps]

Funny how I am starting to see some "I agree's" floating around. Eventually the Maners find common ground.

We all want the same thing.

They should just let Taco re-vamp the offense, and I'll re-vamp the D.

:)

[RaiderH8r]

That's the kind of thinking that got Larry Brown a huge contract in Oakland.

Champ caught a ball Gus threw right to him. That one was on Gus, not Champ.

You're not crazy... I'm just saying that their offense was very charitable to our D.
I don't give a sh!t if they send the ball to our D with flowers and a note. A turnover is a turnover and the O has to make them pay when we steal the rock.

[bloodsunday]

That's the kind of thinking that got Larry Brown a huge contract in Oakland.

Champ caught a ball Gus threw right to him. That one was on Gus, not Champ.

You're not crazy... I'm just saying that their offense was very charitable to our D.
That is true. But the forced fumble was all Champ hustling. Champ was a monster for us and that pick was a reward from the Gods.

[Taco John]

That's the kind of thinking that got Larry Brown a huge contract in Oakland.

Champ caught a ball Gus threw right to him. That one was on Gus, not Champ.

You're not crazy... I'm just saying that their offense was very charitable to our D.


I see your point, but I have to just agree to disagree... A turnover is a turnover in my book... You have to credit the defense when they make them happen.

[bloodsunday]

We all want the same thing.

They should just let Taco re-vamp the offense, and I'll re-vamp the D.

:)
If we don't play better than we did something there will most certainly be some revamping going on.

[Tombstone RJ]

The line went through zero changes this offseason. Carlisle was the starter four weeks before the regular season ended last year.

I think Dan Neil leaving is a big change. But that's just me.

[DBroncos4life]

That's the kind of thinking that got Larry Brown a huge contract in Oakland.

Champ caught a ball Gus threw right to him. That one was on Gus, not Champ.

You're not crazy... I'm just saying that their offense was very charitable to our D.


That pick, while it was a bad pass still has to be caught. As you already know Im not thrilled with the drop pick that Ferg could have had. That would have made it a 3-3 game. Bailey made a great play to cause the fumble as well. No matter how bad the play was that resulted in a TO the D still has to do its part to make the play, and ours did.

[Taco John]

We all want the same thing.

They should just let Taco re-vamp the offense, and I'll re-vamp the D.

:)


LOL

[Popps]

Man we had two turnovers... Bailey forced a fumble and got an interception.

One was an absolute gift, the other was a decent play by Bailey.

[Bronx33]

One was an absolute gift, the other was a decent play by Bailey.

And i'll take either anyday of the week........

[Rascal]

I think Dan Neil leaving is a big change. But that's just me.

Neil didn't start the last four games!

[Tombstone RJ]

We're just looking at the same thing, seeing something different. Our D only stopped ONE Miami drive. They (Miami's O) stopped the rest on their own with penalties and dumb turnovers. They were as charitable as they could be.

I think Popps and I are seeing the same things...

[Popps]

That pick, while it was a bad pass still has to be caught. As you already know Im not thrilled with the drop pick that Ferg could have had. That would have made it a 3-3 game. Bailey made a great play to cause the fumble as well. No matter how bad the play was that resulted in a TO the D still has to do its part to make the play, and ours did.

Bailey did make a good play on that fumble. I just wish we were getting a better return on our investment from guys like Wilson, Pryce, Gold, etc.
I'm tired of our defensive "stars" going belly-up on Sundays.

[Rascal]

I think we all have pretty much agreed that we will continue to see performances like last Sunday if the o-line doesn't improve as it affects all aspects of the team. They are easily the weakest point of our team. It affects Jake and the running game which causes the defense to be dominant which it can't do for an entire game.

[Bronx33]

Bailey did make a good play on that fumble. I just wish we were getting a better return on our investment from guys like Wilson, Pryce, Gold, etc.
I'm tired of our defensive "stars" going belly-up on Sundays.


This will be more valid after more than one game has been played.......

[Tombstone RJ]

Neil didn't start the last four games!

Still were talking about changes in oline chemistry. Being that you played in the trenches, you know how huge this can be.

I want to know what happened to Clabo. The Broncos were all goo-goo over the guy last year and now he's gone.

[DBroncos4life]

Still were talking about changes in oline chemistry. Being that you played in the trenches, you know how huge this can be.

I want to know what happened to Clabo. The Broncos were all goo-goo over the guy last year and now he's gone.


I think its a kiss of death when the go all goo-goo over a player in camp.

[Rascal]

Four previous season games, all offseason and preseason should be enough time for a line to develop enough chemistry to perform better then that. At some point the mad scientists needs to realize they have the wrong elements in the equation. We have two decent players on that line...lepsis and Foster. Coincidentally they are also the hardest to replace. Fix the interior of this line (which can be done in one offseason especially if FA's such as Demulling, Whaley, etc become available) and the team will improve just as much. Besides, it isn't just Carlisle's/neils spot where our o-line is getting manhandled last week or last year.

Preseason media hype...happens every year. That's why I refuse to believe anything from a reporter or a Bronco till I actually see it on the field.

[bloodsunday]

Still were talking about changes in oline chemistry. Being that you played in the trenches, you know how huge this can be.

I want to know what happened to Clabo. The Broncos were all goo-goo over the guy last year and now he's gone.
Roster churn is a killer. Chemistry is non-existent when you roll over 40% of your roster every year.

[Rascal]

That's why I'm giving the d-line a pass for now. They did have a dramatic turnover this past offseason. But the o-line did not.

[bloodsunday]

That's why I'm giving the d-line a pass for now. They did have a dramatic turnover this past offseason. But the o-line did not.
Yeah I agree; they brought back the same guys that were struggling at the end of last season. None of them are particularly new to the team. It's naive to expect drastically different results.

[Popps]

This will be more valid after more than one game has been played.......

I'm obviously talking about more than one game.

[Rascal]

You know what really hacks me off...the fact that the raiders seem to understand this and Shanny doesn't. They are rebuilding their o-line and they are going to be awesome in a short amount of time.

[Popps]

Answer me this.... when was the last time you recall one of our defensive "stars" taking over a game. I don't mean making one good play, I mean taking over a game.
I've watched Ray Lewis do it, I've seen Ed Reed do it, I've seen Jason Taylor do it.. we saw Freeny do it on Sunday night.

When was the last time one of our defenders was a dominant force for an entire game? Honestly?

I can't even remember. You have to go back years.

[bronco militia]

I see your point, but I have to just agree to disagree... A turnover is a turnover in my book... You have to credit the defense when they make them happen.


the pressure on Gus forced that bad throw....

[Pat Bowlen]

When was the last time one of our defenders was a dominant force for an entire game? Honestly?

I can't even remember. You have to go back years.
Come on Popps, it wasn't that long ago...

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/recap/NFL_20011007_KC@DEN

[Tombstone RJ]

Come on Popps, it wasn't that long ago...

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/recap/NFL_20011007_KC@DEN

Doh!:homer:

[DB-Freak]

That's the kind of thinking that got Larry Brown a huge contract in Oakland.

Champ caught a ball Gus threw right to him. That one was on Gus, not Champ.

You're not crazy... I'm just saying that their offense was very charitable to our D.
Where do you think majority of interceptions in the league come from?

Those guys with high int capitalize on the mistake and catch unlike our guys.

It's not like they play amazingly on the ball all the time.

[Taco John]

Come on Popps, it wasn't that long ago...

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/recap/NFL_20011007_KC@DEN


I just threw up in my mouth a little...

[Popps]

Where do you think majority of interceptions in the league come from?

Those guys with high int capitalize on the mistake and catch unlike our guys.

It's not like they play amazingly on the ball all the time.

I see, so all that separates Pro Bowl CBs from average schlebs is blind luck?

Deion Sanders must have been one lucky dude.

All these years... and I never realized that the "majority" of interceptions are gift-wrapped, or just blind luck.

[Popps]

Back to the previous point, I guess Deltha O'Neil is the answer?

That's the last dominant defensive performance this team has seen?!?

I need a new word. Pathetic doesn't quite do that justice.

[Taco John]

Try "Pathortic"

That sounds pretty bad... Pathortic.

[Popps]

Not bad... here's a few more from the old thesaurus.

affecting, commiserable, crummy, deplorable, distressing, feeble, heart-rending, heartbreaking, inadequate, lamentable, meager, melting, miserable, moving, paltry, petty, piteous, pitiable, pitiful, plaintive, poignant, poor, puny, rueful, sorry, tender, touching, useless, woeful, worthless, wretched
contemptible, degraded, dejected, deplorable, destitute, dishonorable, downtrodden, fawning, forlorn, groveling, hang dog, hopeless, humbling, humiliating, low, miserable, outcast, pathetic, pitiable, pitiful, servile, squalid, stark, submissive, underfoot, worthless, wretched


I like "wretched"

[DBroncos4life]

I like the word apocalyptical but I'm not sure I can use it here :stuck:

[elsid13]

Darn, I can not believe I missed out on the fun on this thread.

Only question that I have about Coyer and Slovak is why the corners played so far off? I talking first half, before injury and the fatigue set in. Everyone of the guys, denver drafted or acquired are better in press then zone. Why are we not pressing the opponents??? And don't give the garbage about Boston pushing Darrent over, I think I saw him take on Andre Johnson and succeeded.

PLUS I want to stop the coverage of the TE with a down lineman, I tired of watching are DE try to cover the TE, it never works.

[DB-Freak]

I see, so all that separates Pro Bowl CBs from average schlebs is blind luck?

Deion Sanders must have been one lucky dude.

All these years... and I never realized that the "majority" of interceptions are gift-wrapped, or just blind luck.
Popps if you think because interceptions happen because of the cornerback alone, you don't know football.

Interception numbers quite don't justify a great cornerback. Anthony Henry had 10 ints didn't he?

Is he the next Deion Sanders or something?

[DBroncos4life]

Popps if you think because interceptions happen because of the cornerback alone, you don't know football.

Interception numbers quite don't justify a great cornerback. Anthony Henry had 10 ints didn't he?

Is he the next Deion Sanders or something?


Agreed, I thought thats why the Dline was SOOOO important to force the QB's to make bad throws so the DB's can take advantage of it. It will always start with the DB first being able to catch the ball. It doesn't matter if the throw was perfect or ****ty if the DB can't catch then it will just be another incomplete pass and the O gets another chance to get a first down.

[DB-Freak]

Agreed, I thought thats why the Dline was SOOOO important to force the QB's to make bad throws so the DB's can take advantage of it. It will always start with the DB first being able to catch the ball. It doesn't matter if the throw was perfect or ****ty if the DB can't catch then it will just be another incomplete pass and the O gets another chance to get a first down.
I have seen Lenny at least 6 int every season.

WHERE THE HANDS? GUYS WHO CAN CATCH?

[orinjkrush]

I just wish the Guys would ****** do their Jobs dude. Cb's can not play scared. They have to be Warriors and not afraid to get beat. Damn I would sell one of my testicles for a guy with the Heart Deangelo Hall displayed on Monday versus TO. WHYTF do we not get those kind of players in DENVER???

Do you ever wonder if it is "coached" out of them???

[DBroncos4life]

I have seen Lenny at least 6 int every season.

WHERE THE HANDS? GUYS WHO CAN CATCH?


yep. People hate on Oneal all the time but when the ball hit his hands he picked it off. Bailey is the sameway. Walls isn't. He can't catch, that saying they are cornerbacks for a reason comes to mind whne I see some of our guys drop the INT's that other teams would come up with. While I don't think our D is the problem, they just don't always help themselves or the team out when it comes to picking off passes.

[Popps]

Popps if you think because interceptions happen because of the cornerback alone, you don't know football.

Did you just show up or something?

Did I ever say that?

I've been banging the table for D-line improvements for years. Why? It makes our secondary's job easier.

Get lost.

[Flyboy063]

... and about 70 yards in penalties. Don't forget the gift-wrapped INT.

How was that a gift wrap INT? Wilson blitzed and was about to pound Gus into the ground so he threw the INT trying to hit Chambers. Isn't that what Defense is suppose to do? That was a great defensive play, Great Call, Great Blitz, and a KickA$$ Champ pick! The O didn't do sh!t with it, but I guess that is the Defense's fault?

The O sucked in the game, the D played good. I think our CBs should have pressed the receivers (negating the quick passes). I don't know how good our CBs our in press coverage though since this is the first game I was able to watch. Coyer should have seen that and made a change. Who knows he might have changed if we were able to keep 2 of our top 3 corners on the field for the whole game. Popps, would you play Brandon and Foxworth in Press coverage with Lynch and Fergy at Safety? I know I wouldn't.

All-in-all I think the loss is on the coaching (including Coyer) and the O. They need to pull there collective heads out of there A$$es or this is going to be a very long season. I still think our Dline will get plenty of pressure and the D will be awesome again this year. I also think our O will step it up. Shanny is to good of an offensive mind for it not too.

I want Coyer to stay because he has had a Top 5 defense for both years he's been DC. One of those years he had Deltha and two unknown undrafted free agents as our CBs. That has to say something.

I think the Broncos will rebound and could go far if they can get in sync and a few players step up.

[DB-Freak]

Did you just show up or something?

Did I ever say that?

I've been banging the table for D-line improvements for years. Why? It makes our secondary's job easier.

Get lost.
The int might have been gift warped to Champ, but defense forced that play..

It seems like you have an irrational hard on for Jake and act like you have ****ing sand in your vagina when he played like crap and people says em they sees em.

I dont give a **** about your past advocation cause it's ****ing irrelevant. It's what you said that makes bull**** sense.

[Popps]

The int might have been gift warped to Champ, but defense forced that play..

It seems like you have an irrational hard on for Jake and act like you have ****ing sand in your vagina when he played like crap and people says em they sees em.

I dont give a **** about your past advocation cause it's ****ing irrelevant. It's what you said that makes bull**** sense.

Hey genius, you're arguing with yourself about a point I never even made.

If you want to talk with the grown-ups, learn to at least pay attention.

Now, run along.

[Popps]

How was that a gift wrap INT? Wilson blitzed and was about to pound Gus into the ground so he threw the INT trying to hit Chambers.

Gus had time to throw the ball. He made an idiotic throw. There wasn't anyone in the freaking zip code. I was afraid Champ might drop it out of pure surprise. He didn't, which was great. It was the easiest INT he'll ever come up with. We didn't sack Frerotte the entire game. We couldn't stop them on 3rd down the entire game. We're ranked LAST in yards allowed and near the bottom in every other statistical category. We allowed 34 points.

Tell me again how great the defense played?

[Rock Chalk]

Gus had time to throw the ball. He made an idiotic throw. There wasn't anyone in the freaking zip code. I was afraid Champ might drop it out of pure surprise. He didn't, which was great. It was the easiest INT he'll ever come up with. We didn't sack Frerotte the entire game. We couldn't stop them on 3rd down the entire game. We're ranked LAST in yards allowed and near the bottom in every other statistical category. We allowed 34 points.

Tell me again how great the defense played?
Wow. a rare logic sighting.

[DB-Freak]

Gus had time to throw the ball. He made an idiotic throw. There wasn't anyone in the freaking zip code. I was afraid Champ might drop it out of pure surprise. He didn't, which was great. It was the easiest INT he'll ever come up with. We didn't sack Frerotte the entire game. We couldn't stop them on 3rd down the entire game. We're ranked LAST in yards allowed and near the bottom in every other statistical category. We allowed 34 points.

Tell me again how great the defense played?
Yea, because right now it's the end of the season.

[Popps]

Wow. a rare logic sighting.

Plus, we blitzed Gus 100 other times where he just picked us apart. But, because he made one boneheaded throw on the same kind of blitz... suddenly our defense had a stellar day? Good lord.

Crap day on BOTH sides of the ball. Here's hoping this weekend brings better things.

[Popps]

Yea, because right now it's the end of the season.


Once again, you're arguing with things I never said. Try to pay attention.

[Rock Chalk]

Agreed popps. Whole damn team played stinky.

On to San Diego! :charge:

[DB-Freak]

Hey genius, you're arguing with yourself about a point I never even made.

If you want to talk with the grown-ups, learn to at least pay attention.

Now, run along.
You stated that int was a gift, but it wasn't one.

Gus had a lot of time to throw, but he was pressured at the last second and he made a bad throw.

I don't care how you call it, but it wasnt really a gift.

[DB-Freak]

Once again, you're arguing with things I never said. Try to pay attention.
What are you stupid?

You are using stats that aren't even ****ing complete.

The Balts had a very bad game and they ranked lower than what they are if you go by the stats.

[DB-Freak]

To sum it up, When the defense failed at the end, it didnt matter because Offense going to do anything.

Not only that they lost their top 3 corners. SO it's excusable.

Not saying the defense played great, but this was a game where the offense let down.

[DB-Freak]

Popps I see that I misunderstood parts of posts.

But the main point still remains. Offense failed this one. The defense held on whatever their stats were and maintained all throughout the 3 quarters.

Even if our defense remained stagnant, looking at how the offense was playing there was a high chance we would have lost.

[Popps]

Even if our defense remained stagnant, looking at how the offense was playing there was a high chance we would have lost.


No doubt.

Our offense left 14 pts out there in the first half, alone. It was as bad of a performance as we've seen from them in quite a while. My only point about Plummer was... I'm not sure he was the genesis of the problems on offense.
We couldn't run the ball and we couldn't protect him. He took decent care of the ball through the first three (close) quarters, then looked more erratic when Miami knew we had to throw the ball. Our o-line and our receivers were horrible on Sunday.

I agree, the offense was very bad.