Offense anemic, Plummer's got to go?

[broncoback]

I don't know how everyone feels on this forum but watching Jake Plummer and the offense yesterday was painful. It looked like he hasn't left Arizona and brought all his bad habits with him. I know it's only the first game of the season but there were some bad balls thrown and lot's of miscommunication. Should the Broncos start looking for a new QB after this season, pending how it goes? The whole team is probably not in total "4 quarter" game shape but it doesn't look promising if the offense plays like that. I'll give the Dolphins credit, their defense played solid and simply came to win.

[Hotrod]

Im just hoping Nash picks it up this year.

[Bronx33]

1 game has been played.................one, put the guns away for now.

[orange 4 life]

ahh christ.

this is the sh!t i knew i'd be subjected to coming here this morning.

did you forget your ****ing meds this morning?

did you happen to notice that plummer did NOT throw an int until the game was essentially out of reach?
did you happen to notice that the second int was on a 4th and 10 when he had no CHOICE but to toss it up for grabs?
did you notice the defensive gameplan that sacrificed coverage for blitz all game even AFTER it was apparent they were ready for it?
did you catch the reeves like offensive gameplan?
did you see putz drop a first down catch?
lelie drop an easy td?
lelie fail to make a couple tough catches in long patterns?
our ineptitude in the running game?
the fact that were were in third and 8+ almost every series?
did you miss that half the damn team was on the sidelines cramping up?

this game falls on the coaches, and it falls on the offensive line for failing to move anyone.
it falls on the coaches inability to prepare our players for morning games, and their failure to properly hydrate everyone.

what can we say about this game?

not a damn thing. it was a complete disaster.
plummer sure as hell wasnt the problem, though it sure is easy for the simple minded to heap all the blame on him.
ive even heard a couple idiot sticks around here ask for vanpelt.
why? so we can lose 40-10 every week?

the game is over. it was an atrocity.
pray that anderson and bailey are okay.
pray that we learn our lesson from this.
move on and wait till next week.

its early, but unfortunately all our dreams for this season are on the line the next two weeks.
win, and we're in first place.
lose either, and it could be a long season fighting for exactly what we had a year ago.
stop the blame game and look to next week.
the talent is THERE on this team. just hope they learned their lesson early and we can FINISH strong this season.

jake

[Taco John]

did you happen to notice that plummer did NOT throw an int until the game was essentially out of reach?


I also happened to notice that he didn't throw an accurate pass the entire first half and when he did start throwing accurate passes, he threw them a hundred miles an hour with absolutely no touch whatsoever.

Come on Jake. Plummer was bad. That was some of the worst quarterbacking this team has seen since Griese melted down against Oakland.

The season isn't over, but criticism of Jake at this juncture is surely justified.

[NFLBRONCO]

I hate Plummer with a passion wish we had another option as well. The problem is the offense as a whole doesn't scare anyone. Our running game carried us often in years past we aren't getting our 200 yard rushing games, big runs to lift us. I think we need to the bye week before we make judgements.

[BlaK-Argentina]

ahh christ.

this is the sh!t i knew i'd be subjected to coming here this morning.

did you forget your ****ing meds this morning?

did you happen to notice that plummer did NOT throw an int until the game was essentially out of reach?
did you happen to notice that the second int was on a 4th and 10 when he had no CHOICE but to toss it up for grabs?
did you notice the defensive gameplan that sacrificed coverage for blitz all game even AFTER it was apparent they were ready for it?
did you catch the reeves like offensive gameplan?
did you see putz drop a first down catch?
lelie drop an easy td?
lelie fail to make a couple tough catches in long patterns?
our ineptitude in the running game?
the fact that were were in third and 8+ almost every series?
did you miss that half the damn team was on the sidelines cramping up?

this game falls on the coaches, and it falls on the offensive line for failing to move anyone.
it falls on the coaches inability to prepare our players for morning games, and their failure to properly hydrate everyone.

what can we say about this game?

not a damn thing. it was a complete disaster.
plummer sure as hell wasnt the problem, though it sure is easy for the simple minded to heap all the blame on him.
ive even heard a couple idiot sticks around here ask for vanpelt.
why? so we can lose 40-10 every week?

the game is over. it was an atrocity.
pray that anderson and bailey are okay.
pray that we learn our lesson from this.
move on and wait till next week.

its early, but unfortunately all our dreams for this season are on the line the next two weeks.
win, and we're in first place.
lose either, and it could be a long season fighting for exactly what we had a year ago.
stop the blame game and look to next week.
the talent is THERE on this team. just hope they learned their lesson early and we can FINISH strong this season.

jake

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to orange 4 life again.

Great post as usual, Jake. Exactly my thoughts, but I didn't have the time nor the energy to write all that.

I can't believe people are calling for BVP... this board goes absolutely nuts after a loss. (yeah, a HORRIBLE loss... but it's only ONE game, guys!)

[i4jelway7]

Plummer had some bad passes, but Lelie (his worst game as pro yet), Putz & Alexander sure didn't help him out too much either...

Can't blame this one on Jake, but on the whole offensive unit, and Shanny gets a big F for the game plan, he knew their game plan was to use a lot of 2 TE sets, so what in the world made him decide to de-activate Dayne, Paymah, & Alexander and have Devoe on the active roster??? wtf... any of the ones mentioned above would have been a better choice given the game plan called for a lot of 2 TE sets and JUMBO formations... obvioulsy they didn't know they would lose their starting corners and most of the back-ups but you Shanny should know better than to go into a game w/ only 5 CB's dressed.... again wtf... the coaching staff gets a BIG F

for gods sake Shanny please cut Ernster and sign some offensive help

[Crushaholic]

We had very little run support. As Broncos fans, we should know that a balanced offense is the key to winning. Plummer had a horrible game, but it's only one game.

[orange 4 life]

I also happened to notice that he didn't throw an accurate pass the entire first half and when he did start throwing accurate passes, he threw them a hundred miles an hour with absolutely no touch whatsoever.

Come on Jake. Plummer was bad. That was some of the worst quarterbacking this team has seen since Griese melted down against Oakland.

The season isn't over, but criticism of Jake at this juncture is surely justified.

plummer did not play one of his better games. it was not one of his worst either.
throwing the heaters just means no one BUT his receiver can catch it.
elway threw those passes his whole damn career. the receivers simply need to adjust and make the catch.
as for the first half, plummer had a FEW passes that were off their mark.
not alot.
no one was open, the blocking was suspect, and once again there were too many drops.
lelie broke off the deep pattern on a pass that was PERFECTLY thrown had lelie kept running.
lelie dropped a td pass.
we were in third and long almost every series.
our run game was ATROCIOUS.
our game plan was horrid.

yes, plummer wasnt great (though that one play in the 4th was the houdini like plays we loved elway for so much).

here's the thing though taco.
we KNOW what we have in plummer. we KNOW he can LEAD an offense.
we also know that we cant ask him to BE the offense.
especially not when we dont even give him the weapons to do so.

you wanna criticize him? fine by me.

just make sure you criticize everyone else too.
especially the coaching staff who didnt have the players prepared or hydrated.
the coaching staff who installed the single worst gameplan ive seen since shanahan became coach.

plummer is not infallible, and he is not above criticism.

my issue is with the morons who want vanpelt or some assinine "qb by committee."
my issue is that EVERY DAMN time we lose, half our fan base seems to turn retarded and blame no one BUT the qb.
again, plummer is NOT without blame. heck, NO ONE on the team is without blame after yesterday.
NO ONE played exceptionally well.
im just REALLY tired of constant qb bashing when it isnt justified.
this game was such an atrocity that the only way to handle it is to acknowledge that the ENTIRE team was unprepared, and move on to next week.
to ask for the qb's head on a platter is just plain stupid.

jake

[NaptownChief]

Plummer needs to stay for a long time...Spider says he is "the real deal" and I'm not going to argue against him on that. ;D

[sirhcyennek81]

whole offense sucked sunday. which falls on...coaching. miami was better prepared on offense then we were.

[Play2win]

I also happened to notice that he didn't throw an accurate pass the entire first half and when he did start throwing accurate passes, he threw them a hundred miles an hour with absolutely no touch whatsoever.

Come on Jake. Plummer was bad. That was some of the worst quarterbacking this team has seen since Griese melted down against Oakland.

The season isn't over, but criticism of Jake at this juncture is surely justified.
Its not the Interception that I am worried about, its Jake's total ineptness of accuracy.

Jake is the SQUARE PEG that Shanahan is trying to force through a round hole (Shanahan's Offensive System).

This game just made it Brutely apparent that Jake will never have the accuracy neccessary to deliver this team to the Superbowl. And thats where we need to go, and Jake isn't taking us there. Jake its been a fun ride, but this is your stop, and this is where you get off the bus.

We need a QB that can deliver the ball to a specific spot and place in time. When we get that QB, our team is going to, again, be prolific offensively and put mass amounts of Points on the board. but not until we get THAT GUY. We NEED THAT GUY!!!!

[Broncoman13]

I also happened to notice that he didn't throw an accurate pass the entire first half and when he did start throwing accurate passes, he threw them a hundred miles an hour with absolutely no touch whatsoever.

Come on Jake. Plummer was bad. That was some of the worst quarterbacking this team has seen since Griese melted down against Oakland.

The season isn't over, but criticism of Jake at this juncture is surely justified.


19... any idea what the significance of that number is?

Like I said earlier, I'm just glad Jake didn't give any of our WR's, Coaches, or Fans a heart attack when he finally through an accurate pass.

Did anybody happen to notice that he had Peyton Manning vs the Broncos type time in the first series? 7 seconds and nobody could get open, or he couldn't find anybody. Don't know for sure, but if you get 7 seconds you should be able to find a receiver open.

Jake Plummer can take us to the playoffs but I don't think we'll ever win a playoff game with Jake.

What really sucks is even if we decide that we want a QB in the draft, Shanny will "suprise" the world with a 3rd round QB in the top 10.

Now for my contradictory part... this team will be okay. Jake Plummer may not be able to win a playoff game but this defense and running game can! Let this season playout and make adjustments. If Plummer doesn't have atleast a 2:1 TD:INT Ratio.. so long! This list is long and plentiful of QB's that may be in next years draft!

[DB-Freak]

I am always for the better solution if the price is right.

[watermock]

I have to respectfully dissagree Jake. Plummer sucked, but the whole team sucked from top to bottom.

That's what is so disturbing. If you could even name the QB, or a bad coverage, or a specific turnover it would be one thing. From Coaching to execution to effort, the whole thing graded out an F.

[DB-Freak]

By the way Jake, the excuses you show for Jake show that Jake is nothing more than a mediocore to decent QB.

Plummer was plenty horrible on his own and the team sucked along.

[Mediator12]

Jake if you can defend Plummer's play yesterday then you are flat out delusional. He did not throw an Accurate pass until he almost Killed rod on a slant with Pass # 8. In fact it took him four drives to complete a pass, and that included a screen that he severely over threw.

He was 6 for 17 at the half, under 35% completion. He threw three Balls into double Coverage and Was lucky they were no picked off. The Only Drops in the first half were by Lelie in the End Zone and By Lelie on the last play of the half that would have amounted to nothing. Jake had One, Count it ONE official Pressure in the first half and completed 35% of his passes. He pussed out on a scramble in the first Q when the offense needed a first down. He threw A ball so far Behind Rod Smith that he allowed Jones to Level him when he had to reach behind him to make the Catch.

[24champ]

I have to respectfully dissagree Jake. Plummer sucked, but the whole team sucked from top to bottom.

That's what is so disturbing. If you could even name the QB, or a bad coverage, or a specific turnover it would be one thing. From Coaching to execution to effort, the whole thing graded out an F.
I agree all phases of the game sucked. Some people on here are " its not jakes fault" bs, what game were they watching? I saw Jake throw into double coverage and throw the ball too hard and throwing ducks up in the air. The whole game was pitiful. I dont know of one player that did well,devoe, kj, and rod smith all did OK. This week is a must win game, its a division game and we cant afford to go down 0-2 and cant lose at home.

[Taco John]

Jake simply didn't play like a professional quarterback yesterday. And I disagree with anyone who says it wasn't one of his worst outings. It sure was. At least as a Bronco. I can't speak for his play in Arizona. I have seen every snap he's taken as a Bronco and this was some of the worst quarterbacking he's supplied. I thought it was worse than his first half at Indy last year, and that's saying something.

[Rascal]

Won't matter who we have back there...if our offensive line can't give them enough time to throw.

It all starts up front and our offensive line got manhandled yesterday. Our offense will be anemic all season long unless that line gets together. How many of you still think we should have used the money on Gold instead of Demulling or other FA guards? Carlisle....the guy is a backup at best.

[16-JakE-16]

Jake if you can defend Plummer's play yesterday then you are flat out delusional. He did not throw an Accurate pass until he almost Killed rod on a slant with Pass # 8. In fact it took him four drives to complete a pass, and that included a screen that he severely over threw.

He was 6 for 17 at the half, under 35% completion. He threw three Balls into double Coverage and Was lucky they were no picked off. The Only Drops in the first half were by Lelie in the End Zone and By Lelie on the last play of the half that would have amounted to nothing. Jake had One, Count it ONE official Pressure in the first half and completed 35% of his passes. He pussed out on a scramble in the first Q when the offense needed a first down. He threw A ball so far Behind Rod Smith that he allowed Jones to Level him when he had to reach behind him to make the Catch.


Exactly.

[enjolras]

Jake if you can defend Plummer's play yesterday then you are flat out delusional. He did not throw an Accurate pass until he almost Killed rod on a slant with Pass # 8. In fact it took him four drives to complete a pass, and that included a screen that he severely over threw.

He was 6 for 17 at the half, under 35% completion. He threw three Balls into double Coverage and Was lucky they were no picked off. The Only Drops in the first half were by Lelie in the End Zone and By Lelie on the last play of the half that would have amounted to nothing. Jake had One, Count it ONE official Pressure in the first half and completed 35% of his passes. He pussed out on a scramble in the first Q when the offense needed a first down. He threw A ball so far Behind Rod Smith that he allowed Jones to Level him when he had to reach behind him to make the Catch.

You could have put Elway merged with Montana back there and he would have only done marginally better. After watching the game again last night on Tivo.. its absolutely astounding how bad the offensive line is right now. Particularly the middle three.. the same middle three that sucked last year.

I have no idea if Jake can be a good QB, but I'm positive yesterday was no indication either way. When a QB is facing up the middle pressure on nearly every play, asking him to make an accurate pass is simply to much. Simply getting the ball off is a feat in and of itself...

Fix the line.. and then worry about the Quarterback.

[DBroncos4life]

well I don't know about you guys but I know Terrell is the answer to our problems. Why we didn't try and talk to Warrick, Price, Morgan, or Robinson when they were out there is beyond me. Oh thats right we had Rice to deal with. I just pray that David remembers that he is good and helps some in the RZ.

[Northman]

ahh christ.

this is the sh!t i knew i'd be subjected to coming here this morning.

did you forget your ****ing meds this morning?

did you happen to notice that plummer did NOT throw an int until the game was essentially out of reach?
did you happen to notice that the second int was on a 4th and 10 when he had no CHOICE but to toss it up for grabs?
did you notice the defensive gameplan that sacrificed coverage for blitz all game even AFTER it was apparent they were ready for it?
did you catch the reeves like offensive gameplan?
did you see putz drop a first down catch?
lelie drop an easy td?
lelie fail to make a couple tough catches in long patterns?
our ineptitude in the running game?
the fact that were were in third and 8+ almost every series?
did you miss that half the damn team was on the sidelines cramping up?

this game falls on the coaches, and it falls on the offensive line for failing to move anyone.
it falls on the coaches inability to prepare our players for morning games, and their failure to properly hydrate everyone.

what can we say about this game?

not a damn thing. it was a complete disaster.
plummer sure as hell wasnt the problem, though it sure is easy for the simple minded to heap all the blame on him.
ive even heard a couple idiot sticks around here ask for vanpelt.
why? so we can lose 40-10 every week?

the game is over. it was an atrocity.
pray that anderson and bailey are okay.
pray that we learn our lesson from this.
move on and wait till next week.

its early, but unfortunately all our dreams for this season are on the line the next two weeks.
win, and we're in first place.
lose either, and it could be a long season fighting for exactly what we had a year ago.
stop the blame game and look to next week.
the talent is THERE on this team. just hope they learned their lesson early and we can FINISH strong this season.

jake




Excellent post Jake i couldnt have said it better myself. one thing i noticed about the game was it was somewhat eeriely similar to the Ravens/Colts game later on in the evening.

1) our defense spent way too much time out on the field than they should of, especially in that heat. when your offense goes 3 and out a lot it just tires the defense no matter how good they are.

2) the running game was lacking bigtime as we got no burst whatsoever there which in turn made us one dimensional. and when we fell behind the Dolphin defense just pinned their ears back and came at us knowing that Jake was going to have to win it with his arm.

3) dropped passes and total inconsistency plagued the offense all day. i dont know if this team will ever get the chemistry it needs to win some ball games but it is only 1 game afterall. 16 more weeks to go yet.

[DarkHorse30]

...my issue is with the morons who want vanpelt or some assinine "qb by committee."
my issue is that EVERY DAMN time we lose, half our fan base seems to turn retarded and blame no one BUT the qb.
again, plummer is NOT without blame. heck, NO ONE on the team is without blame after yesterday.
NO ONE played exceptionally well.
im just REALLY tired of constant qb bashing when it isnt justified.
this game was such an atrocity that the only way to handle it is to acknowledge that the ENTIRE team was unprepared, and move on to next week.
to ask for the qb's head on a platter is just plain stupid.

jake

My problem with yesterday's game is that it was a nightmare from the beginning. Of course you have to blame Shanahan.....the playcalling was anemic.....especially the part that had Anderson running off-tackle into the arms of Zach Thomas nearly every other play.

Bottom line to me, though, is Plummer disappearing in the first 5 minutes of the game. You've got to step up and WILL your team to a good start in that kind of heat.....so far, it looks like he is content to be average at best. I watched 7 QBs yesterday and Plummer was at the bottom, along with Boller. How could a backup QB like Wright look more prepared than Plummer.....on Shanahan's infamous opening day gameplan?

Denver seriously needs to consider dumping "the system" and coming up with something that the players KNOW. I'd take 3 plays of the 1500 that Shanahan has come up with, he confuses his team more than everybody else. Times need to change, especially with everybody knowing how to beat Denver "eight in the box, Plummer can't beat you".

[rbackfactory80]

Well since he is the face of the team being QB he has to expect to take the majority of the blame even though a football team is equal to the sum of all its parts. How many times have you guys seen jake lead us down the field when down and put us in position to win. Not saying we have came up with a win all those time. He is a very capable qb but with that said he needs a little help from I don't know, lets say offensive line, runningbacks, wide receivers.

[ro_50]

I dont think Jake played that bad but he didnt play well. I think its suffice to say that he's not going to win games by himself. He's going to need a consistent running game to help him win and playmakers.

To bad the best player is Rod Smith and we cant clone him.

Lelie needs to step up for god sakes and the O-line needs to play better.

[yavoon]

Jake if you can defend Plummer's play yesterday then you are flat out delusional. He did not throw an Accurate pass until he almost Killed rod on a slant with Pass # 8. In fact it took him four drives to complete a pass, and that included a screen that he severely over threw.

He was 6 for 17 at the half, under 35% completion. He threw three Balls into double Coverage and Was lucky they were no picked off. The Only Drops in the first half were by Lelie in the End Zone and By Lelie on the last play of the half that would have amounted to nothing. Jake had One, Count it ONE official Pressure in the first half and completed 35% of his passes. He pussed out on a scramble in the first Q when the offense needed a first down. He threw A ball so far Behind Rod Smith that he allowed Jones to Level him when he had to reach behind him to make the Catch.

damn straight.

[Cito Pelon]

Jake is the QB for all 15 games left to go. Myself, I have only one problem with Plummer - he throws off his back foot too much. Step into the throw, dude.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Jake if you can defend Plummer's play yesterday then you are flat out delusional.

When it comes to Jake Plummer, that's all he's ever been.

[Macnut]

I dont think Jake played that bad but he didnt play well. I think its suffice to say that he's not going to win games by himself. He's going to need a consistent running game to help him win and playmakers.

To bad the best player is Rod Smith and we cant clone him.

Lelie needs to step up for god sakes and the O-line needs to play better.
I agree! I don't blame this lost on Plummer, I blame it on coaching, the O line and Lelie not stepping up.

[orange 4 life]

I dont think Jake played that bad but he didnt play well. I think its suffice to say that he's not going to win games by himself. He's going to need a consistent running game to help him win and playmakers.

To bad the best player is Rod Smith and we cant clone him.

Lelie needs to step up for god sakes and the O-line needs to play better.

that pretty much sums it up.

jake can LEAD the offense, and is more than capable of making plays on his own, but you cant ask him to BE the offense.
when we cant run the ball, cant catch the ball, dont block anyone, and have a reeves like gameplan leaving us consistently in 3rd and long its not too difficult to see why plummer struggled.

again, he didnt play WELL, and he deserves some blame along with everyone else on the team, but singling HIM out as THE problem is what is "delusional".

jake

[orange 4 life]

When it comes to Jake Plummer, that's all he's ever been.

go **** your sister.
no one asked for your opinion mullett head.

[Rock Chalk]

I also happened to notice that he didn't throw an accurate pass the entire first half and when he did start throwing accurate passes, he threw them a hundred miles an hour with absolutely no touch whatsoever.

Come on Jake. Plummer was bad. That was some of the worst quarterbacking this team has seen since Griese melted down against Oakland.

The season isn't over, but criticism of Jake at this juncture is surely justified.
I would have said the worst since the Greasy one melted down against Miami.

[watermock]

Excellent post Jake i couldnt have said it better myself. one thing i noticed about the game was it was somewhat eeriely similar to the Ravens/Colts game later on in the evening.

1) our defense spent way too much time out on the field than they should of, especially in that heat. when your offense goes 3 and out a lot it just tires the defense no matter how good they are.

Exactly why do you think the Defense was on the field so much? Could it of possibly been our 8% third down converstion?

2) the running game was lacking bigtime as we got no burst whatsoever there which in turn made us one dimensional. and when we fell behind the Dolphin defense just pinned their ears back and came at us knowing that Jake was going to have to win it with his arm.

I can't figure the playcalling out from this team for the life of me. Years before, they go nintendo empty backfield, even on first down, now that they have Watts a year older and Putz and Lelie and ect...we kept running an I formation right to our weakest part of the OL, the middle three. It was astounding. I was actually screaming for nintendo. And why in the hell was Dayne inactive?

3) dropped passes and total inconsistency plagued the offense all day. i dont know if this team will ever get the chemistry it needs to win some ball games but it is only 1 game afterall. 16 more weeks to go yet.

Alot of Jakes passes were literally horrible. He was alternating throwing behind, way too hard on a short slant, throwing too high, throwing sucks that literally, looked like ducks, the nose in the air. Some of them more resembled punts than passes.
One thing not mentioned is Watts had zero catches. Hell, I don't think I remember a single pass even attempted to him. At least one he had a chance to catch.

I'm not laying the loss all on Jake, hardly. Again, it was obvious that Miami owned the interior of our OL, yet we kept on running up the middle with Anderson out and Dayne in civies. WTF was that? Way to crack Bells confidence Kubiak. thwack :twitch:

[bloodsunday]

Exactly why do you think the Defense was on the field so much? Could it of possibly been our 8% third down converstion?
Not good, coach.

I can't figure the playcalling out from this team for the life of me. Years before, they go nintendo empty backfield, even on first down, now that they have Watts a year older and Putz and Lelie and ect...we kept running an I formation right to our weakest part of the OL, the middle three. It was astounding. I was actually screaming for nintendo.
This offense is completely devoid of playmakers. Seriously, ask yourself what one player you would take away if you were the opposing D-coordinator. I can't think of one. Instead you'd think more about things like, "make Jake beat you" or "stop the zone blocking at the point of attack". You can only game plan and play call so much and then the players have to execute. This offense is going to struggle against defenses as physical and talented as Miami. What's scary is that we play at least 5 defenses as good or better than Miami's this season.

And why in the hell was Dayne inactive?
Because he doesn't play ST and we are keeping 3 kickers. We might have to evaluate taking Crosby from CU next season and saying bye-bye to Elam. We have been protecting him for too long. His weak leg has caused us to dance around this for too many seasons now. Not to mention his huge pay check.

Alot of Jakes passes were literally horrible. He was alternating throwing behind, way too hard on a short slant, throwing too high, throwing sucks that literally, looked like ducks, the nose in the air. Some of them more resembled punts than passes.
Jake was bad. I'm kinda curious to know more about Mediator's theory that Jake is not audibling properly in the run game. He contends that Jake should be changing the runing plays after reading the defense but Jake is not good at it.


One thing not mentioned is Watts had zero catches. Hell, I don't think I remember a single pass even attempted to him. At least one he had a chance to catch.
Watts is number 4 now. He'll be lucky to get 15 balls this season if that doesn't change.

[fontaine]

This sunday is going to be no joke.

San Diego comes into town with a very efficient 3-4 D. The same type of front that our OL has had trouble with before, the same type of front that limits our running game with that extra LB to shut down cutback lanes and Jamal Williams eating up RBs in the interior.

Our Offense has to get back on track and it's not going to happen by counting on players that we know haven't gotten it done before under pressure like Lelie/TEs/Plummer.

Something very similar happened to Philly two seasons ago. They started off the year 0-2 with their offense stalling and McNabb looking lost.

Andy Reid was smart, and humbe enough to realize that Freddie Mitchell/Pinkston were no more than buffed cheerleaders with Jockstraps and he saw McNabb was struggling so he slung the offense on the back of Brian Westbrook and got it going. Reid started running new/different plays geared toward different formations, and using a lot of misdirection to get the ball to Westbrook in quick dump off passes where he could use his burst and quickness in space, and feeding him the ball on screens and stretch plays to maximize his quickness. McNabb had maybe one or two primary reads before he was asked to dump it off to the FB/RB in the flat or take off with it himself.

When defenses started feeding more coverage towards Westbrook he asked McNabb to look for the TEs instead.

It's the same principal in Denver. Shanahan has got to realize that counting on simpletons and weak players like Plummer/Lelie is courting disaster. We've got to be able to show something else on offense than just the same cutback up the middle if Defenses have us figured out by stacking the box and forcing Plummer to throw.

We can't ask Plummer to drop back and scan 2/3 reads and throw the accurate pass. He has to have one primary WR, and then decide between a quick dump off pass to the RB/FB/Bell so that he can make things happen in space with his acceleration, or have Plummer take off with the ball himself.

We can't ask Lelie to be a clutch WR. She's great at running fly patterns and stretching defenses by taking away the safety, but as soon as we ask her to run different routes and be more physical, then it's end of story. Have her run fly patterns and take shots when they creep the safety into the box, and definitely replace her with Watts/Adams on 3 wide plays. Ashleen simply isn't the physical WR we need her to be right now.

We have to get more variation on our Running plays. Up the middle, up the middle, off the RT is great if it works but if it doesn't then our running game has got to be prepared to stretch out defenses by running more screens, stretch/toss and sweep plays designed to take advantage of our Mobile OL.

Get K. Johnson, Bell, Dayne or Anderson at least two touches each receiving the ball. Our WRs apart from Smith arent' good as every down targets so we need our RBs to pick up the slack there. Plummer at least did an ok job throwing the ball to RBs.

And for god's sake work on, limit or flat out take away Plummer's audibles. The guy has been in the NFL for almost a decade and the bumpkin is still as dumb as a doorknob when it comes to calling an audible right into the teeth of the defense with a running play up the middle.

Any other suggestions?

[watermock]

Good take Fontaine. Depressing, but accurate. :gossip:

However, I think Jake isn't allowed to audible very much...(see last years fade route to Rod Smith)....

[fontaine]

Good take Fontaine. Depressing, but accurate. :gossip:

However, I think Jake isn't allowed to audible very much...(see last years fade route to Rod Smith)....

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure there were several plays where we came out with two/three wide and a TE where Plummer took a long while to call the play which was a simple run to the interior. It doesn't take almost all of the play clock to wind down to call a simple running play to the interior, and I'm pretty sure Plummer audibled a few times there unless he was trying to get the D to jump offsides on purpose.

[Alkazar]

What I saw was an absolutely abysmal performance in EVERY aspect of the game, From poor play calling by Shannahan, to poor QBing by Plummer, to the D being run over by a mediocre Miami O headed by :gus: Frerotte of all people. Just like when we had Brian :griese: at the helm, to put all the blame on one person is absolutely ludicrous. The entire team let us down, and they ALL have to improve. I just hope that some of the Griese Bashers finally are starting to realize what the rest of us have been saying all along, the problem is not just the QB.

[Rock Chalk]

You are right Alkazar, the problem isnt just the QB. But in Griese's case, that was the biggest problem Nnyah!

[Mediator12]

You could have put Elway merged with Montana back there and he would have only done marginally better. After watching the game again last night on Tivo.. its absolutely astounding how bad the offensive line is right now. Particularly the middle three.. the same middle three that sucked last year.

I have no idea if Jake can be a good QB, but I'm positive yesterday was no indication either way. When a QB is facing up the middle pressure on nearly every play, asking him to make an accurate pass is simply to much. Simply getting the ball off is a feat in and of itself...

Fix the line.. and then worry about the Quarterback.

That is not True! I counted only two hurries the whole half and Jake left the pocket without pressure twice. You do not have three seconds to read coverage and THEN make up your mind.

[bloodsunday]

Good take Fontaine. Depressing, but accurate. :gossip:

However, I think Jake isn't allowed to audible very much...(see last years fade route to Rod Smith)....
Yeah asking McNabb to be a game manager and asking Jake is a totally different task (apparently). I had high hopes for Jake but he continues to disappoint.

[Mediator12]

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure there were several plays where we came out with two/three wide and a TE where Plummer took a long while to call the play which was a simple run to the interior. It doesn't take almost all of the play clock to wind down to call a simple running play to the interior, and I'm pretty sure Plummer audibled a few times there unless he was trying to get the D to jump offsides on purpose.

fontaine that is play design in order to help plummer read Man or zone coverage. He struggles with presnap reads more than ANY QB I have seen in recent history. Those are not audibles. Shanahan did that all last year with the TE's too.

[bloodsunday]

fontaine that is play design in order to help plummer read Man or zone coverage. He struggles with presnap reads more than ANY QB I have seen in recent history. Those are not audibles. Shanahan did that all last year with the TE's too.
Med, is it fair to say that you think Jake is not the answer here in Denver?

[Mediator12]

bloodsunday, i am just sick and tired of the defense getting leveled after playing well in games and the offense NOT showing up. CAR, JAX, OAK, @SD, @KC, @IND. Hell, they really did not play well in TB last year either and everyone wonders why the defense wears down at the end of the year and the Playoffs!!!

Edit: The defense did not play well in KC either, but that does not excuse the Offense for their poor showing!!

This is a good, NOT GREAT, Defense that has the ability to keep the team in Games EVEN WHEN THE OFFENSE FAILS TO SHOW UP! The Miami game was not Over even after Booker beat Walls who should not even have been playing.

However, Jake Plummer has not led this team to a Comeback WIN that I CAN REMEMBER. He has had Chances. He had them Sunday after a pathetic First half and Stunk up the third Q as well. He was 6-17 after the HAlf, 8-24 after three when the score was 13-3. That's right the game was not over at the start of the Fourth Q, but we ALL KNEW the game was Over because their was no way in HELL Plummer would lead a comeback since he has not done so for this team yet.

So yeah, I think plummer's days SHOULD be numbered. However, I am not as delusional as some here who think it will happen sooner rather than too Late.

[bloodsunday]

bloodsunday, i am just sick and tired of the defense getting leveled after playing well in games and the offense NOT showing up. CAR, JAX, OAK, @SD, @KC, @IND. Hell, they really did not play well in TB last year either and everyone wonders why the defense wears down at the end of the year and the Playoffs!!!

Edit: The defense did not play well in KC either, but that does not excuse the Offense for their poor showing!!

This is a good, NOT GREAT, Defense that has the ability to keep the team in Games EVEN WHEN THE OFFENSE FAILS TO SHOW UP! The Miami game was not Over even after Booker beat Walls who should not even have been playing.

However, Jake Plummer has not led this team to a Comeback WIN that I CAN REMEMBER. He has had Chances. He had them Sunday after a pathetic First half and Stunk up the third Q as well. He was 6-17 after the HAlf, 8-24 after three when the score was 13-3. That's right the game was not over at the start of the Fourth Q, but we ALL KNEW the game was Over because their was no way in HELL Plummer would lead a comeback since he has not done so for this team yet.

So yeah, I think plummer's days SHOULD be numbered. However, I am not as delusional as some here who think it will happen sooner rather than too Late.
What's your read/knowledge of the contract situation? Since they restructured it twice this offseason I would assume it carries a huge penalty (dead money) if we try to cut bait. Is that true? I would have to imagine that things must get really ugly (6 - 10 type ugly) before this would be given any serious thought by the FO. They seem happy with 10 - 6 and a berth in the playoffs for now.

[Rock Chalk]

However, Jake Plummer has not led this team to a Comeback WIN that I CAN REMEMBER.
Cleveland.

Must have a short memory.

[Mediator12]

Cleveland.

Must have a short memory.

I am sorry alec, I meant from last year. Not 25 games ago. Broncos have lost 8 games they were within a TD since then.

[bloodsunday]

Cleveland.

Must have a short memory.
I think you Med's point is more that he has not been the leader we hoped. He has not been the guy that can take charge of this team when it matters most. We hoped we were getting a guy more LIKE Elway (no one will ever be Elway) that could lead this team in the 4th quarter and manage the offense even when things aren't going your way. Griese was a fine QB when everything was going his way. As soon as adversity came things went downhill -- quickly.

[Rock Chalk]

I think you Med's point is more that he has not been the leader we hoped. He has not been the guy that can take charge of this team when it matters most. We hoped we were getting a guy more LIKE Elway (no one will ever be Elway) that could lead this team in the 4th quarter and manage the offense even when things aren't going your way. Griese was a fine QB when everything was going his way. As soon as adversity came things went downhill -- quickly.
Thats all of your own stupid ****ing fault for thinking you were getting someone "like" Elway.

What on God's green Earth made you think Plummer was going to be "like" Elway? What, in his erratic history, EVER gave you that impression?

[Mediator12]

Jake Plummer is a leader with his words and not his Consistancy. That is why I think he fails to live up to the grand expectations of the Denver Broncos Fans. The Fans have HIGH expectations that a career 56% (59% in DEN) passer is going to have a hard time meeting. Leaders overcome Adversity and Jake seems to not overcome much of that at all.

[bloodsunday]

Thats all of your own stupid ****ing fault for thinking you were getting someone "like" Elway.

What on God's green Earth made you think Plummer was going to be "like" Elway? What, in his erratic history, EVER gave you that impression?
That's not my opinion, but the opinion of the FO. Think about all the qualities they like about Plummer. He's a "competitor". He's "mobile". He had a history of 4th quarter wins in Arizona. He get's along with his teammates. They wanted a guy that was very different from Griese. More importantly, they wanted a player in the mold of an Elway or a Young because this the kind of QB that is most efficient in Shanny's offense.

They apparently believe(d) they can coach him up to be a better decision maker and a more consistent player. This FO also has a history of trying to take failed players from other organizations and thinking they can make them better.

[Hotrod]

Some great posts on this thread all of you now here a question from a not great X's & O's guy.

Does anyone wonder if part of Jakes problem is Shanny has him to "reeled" in. Keeping a guy like Jake on a super short chain takes away his playmaking ability???

[Mediator12]

Some great posts on this thread all of you now here a question from a not great X's & O's guy.

Does anyone wonder if part of Jakes problem is Shanny has him to "reeled" in. Keeping a guy like Jake on a super short chain takes away his playmaking ability???

Yes and No. He has reeled him in on audibling because he does not trust his presnap reads.

No, because he continues to fail to Protect with six or seven instead of five and reduce the number of recievers in the pattern for Jake to Read. In some cases, I believe Shanahan tries to confuse the Defense TOO MUCH, instead of giving more protection and simpler reads to Jake.

[bloodsunday]

In some cases, I believe Shanahan tries to confuse the Defense TOO MUCH
Thereby confusing... Jake ;)

[NaptownChief]

Some great posts on this thread all of you now here a question from a not great X's & O's guy.

Does anyone wonder if part of Jakes problem is Shanny has him to "reeled" in. Keeping a guy like Jake on a super short chain takes away his playmaking ability???



"Reeling" Jake in is what has kept him from throwing more INT's than TD's since being in Denver. It will keep him from making some big plays but it will also keep him from making even more really big plays for the other teams defense. You guys need to quit trying to change the stripes on this tiger and just go get you another tiger. A guy like Jon Kitna would have been a good cheap offseason upgrade for your system until you landed the long term answer.

[bloodsunday]

"Reeling" Jake in is what has kept him from throwing more INT's than TD's since being in Denver. It will keep him from making some big plays but it will also keep him from making even more really big plays for the other teams defense. You guys need to quit trying to change the stripes on this tiger and just go get you another tiger. A guy like Jon Kitna would have been a good cheap offseason upgrade for your system until you landed the long term answer.
Rep for the positive suggestion. Did you intend to pun about Kitna being a Tiger?

Yeah there were quite a few players that could have been available had we been serious about making a change. The problem is that we need to have an identity as a team before we can start making changes. If the identity of this team is going to continue to be as a zone blocking OL, then we need a guy that can roll out to compliment the stretch play and get the offense into position. Jake is 1 for 2. While I would have liked to see Denver make a more serious effort to get a guy like LeFors in the draft, there is zero chance he would be our start this season. They complicated matters (I think) be restructuring Jake's contract.

[DBroncos4life]

"Reeling" Jake in is what has kept him from throwing more INT's than TD's since being in Denver. It will keep him from making some big plays but it will also keep him from making even more really big plays for the other teams defense. You guys need to quit trying to change the stripes on this tiger and just go get you another tiger. A guy like Jon Kitna would have been a good cheap offseason upgrade for your system until you landed the long term answer.



If Warner could release the ball like he did back with the Rams I would rather have him. But now he holds the ball and can't throw like he used too. The thing people don't understand is you don't have to have a mobile QB to not get sacked you just have to have a guy that is going to get the ball out of his hands before he gets sacked. See Manning, Marino, and Brady.

[Bronco9798]

Jake Plummer is a leader with his words and not his Consistancy. That is why I think he fails to live up to the grand expectations of the Denver Broncos Fans. The Fans have HIGH expectations that a career 56% (59% in DEN) passer is going to have a hard time meeting. Leaders overcome Adversity and Jake seems to not overcome much of that at all.

Jake usually bounces back after a bad game. Sit tight and watch this week, he'll do fine. :thumbsup: I think the entire team turns it around this week and gets us back on track.

[bloodsunday]

Jake usually bounces back after a bad game. Sit tight and watch this week, he'll do fine. :thumbsup: I think the entire team turns it around this week and gets us back on track.
Yeah but we have to think about the season as a whole, not one game here or there. Jake is a capable quarterback in some ways. He just does not appear to be capable of what we are asking him to do consistently over a period of an entire season. We need him (and the rest of the team) to put together 14 good games to have a good season.

[NaptownChief]

Rep for the positive suggestion. Did you intend to pun about Kitna being a Tiger?
.


Just a funny coincidence...

I do think Kitna would have been a very good short term fix. The guy is a very solid QB with plenty of experience. He is a Jesus freak but certainly far worse things to be than that.

Always been amazed at how solid guys like Kitna, Frerotte and even to a much lesser degree Dilfer have always been kicked aside as garbage while some guys like Tony Banks, Plummer(to some extent), Krydell and a few others are given a very long rope to hang themselves.

[Bronco9798]

Yeah but we have to think about the season as a whole, not one game here or there. Jake is a capable quarterback in some ways. He just does not appear to be capable of what we are asking him to do consistently over a period of an entire season. We need him (and the rest of the team) to put together 14 good games to have a good season.
One game at a time.

[bloodsunday]

I do think Kitna would have been a very good short term fix. The guy is a very solid QB with plenty of experience. He is a Jesus freak but certainly far worse things to be than that.
He got a raw deal in Cincy (kind of). He played well for them. Can't say that I can argue with the idea that he could have been a good short term QB. That said, I'm not sure he's mobile enough to survive behind our OL.

Always been amazed at how solid guys like Kitna, Frerotte and even to a much lesser degree Dilfer have always been kicked aside as garbage while some guys like Tony Banks, Plummer(to some extent), Krydell and a few others are given a very long rope to hang themselves.
The NFL in general puzzles me sometimes. Guys that are effective players get cast aside for players with more "potential" all the time. NFL Personnel people are so in love with stats and measureables that they often forget to consider how the guy performs in the games.

[NaptownChief]

If Warner could release the ball like he did back with the Rams I would rather have him. But now he holds the ball and can't throw like he used too. The thing people don't understand is you don't have to have a mobile QB to not get sacked you just have to have a guy that is going to get the ball out of his hands before he gets sacked. See Manning, Marino, and Brady.



Exactly...Vick is the fastest QB to ever play the game and yet leads the league in sacks cause he can't read a defense quickly, doesn't know his offense or the opponents defense well enough to make adjustments to the O-Lines blocking schemes when needed and isn't capable of making line audibles to put them into a play with the best chance of success.

The QB's ability to do all of the above is even more vital than the quality of the O-Line. I've often mentioned this fact but it bares repeating, when the Colts had Jim Horribaugh at QB they were among the league leaders in sacks allowed for multiple years, the year Manning took over with virtually the identical O-Line they were in the top 2 or 3 in the least amount of sacks allowed immediately.

[bloodsunday]

One game at a time.
Yeah that's true right now. I wanna get this game against San Diego as bad as anyone.

But we have 9 years of NFL experience by which to judge Jake. 2 years of it here.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

I've often mentioned this fact but it bares repeating, when the Colts had Jim Horribaugh at QB they were among the league leaders in sacks allowed for multiple years, the year Manning took over with virtually the identical O-Line they were in the top 2 or 3 in the least amount of sacks allowed immediately.

Really?

I always thought Harbaugh was a pretty smart guy...

[DBroncos4life]

Exactly...Vick is the fastest QB to ever play the game and yet leads the league in sacks cause he can't read a defense quickly, doesn't know his offense or the opponents defense well enough to make adjustments to the O-Lines blocking schemes when needed and isn't capable of making line audibles to put them into a play with the best chance of success.

The QB's ability to do all of the above is even more vital than the quality of the O-Line. I've often mentioned this fact but it bares repeating, when the Colts had Jim Horribaugh at QB they were among the league leaders in sacks allowed for multiple years, the year Manning took over with virtually the identical O-Line they were in the top 2 or 3 in the least amount of sacks allowed immediately.



Thats why I want Leinart so much. He reminds me of a Manning type QB. Someone that can read the D and make changes when he doesn't like what the D gives him. He seems to get the ball out in a hurry as well.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

With all the bitching you guys are doing about your O-Line, I can't imagine why you'd want a statue QB.

[NaptownChief]

Really?

I always though Harbaugh was a pretty smart guy...


Football IQ was about as high as the IQ that was present when he and Jim Kelly were scrumming in the tunnel out in Sandy Eggo that one time. He couldn't read a defense much better than Vick, always got picked if he threw beyond 25 yards and never made a quick read or decision. Good athlete but not too bright on the football field. Speaks well off of it so he was a bit deceptive in that regard.

[NaptownChief]

Thats why I want Leinart so much. He reminds me of a Manning type QB. Someone that can read the D and make changes when he doesn't like what the D gives him. He seems to get the ball out in a hurry as well.


I would agree. Leinart appears to be very smart on and off the field. He would be my first choice of the college QB's to convert to a NFL QB.

[bloodsunday]

I would agree. Leinart appears to be very smart on and off the field. He would be my first choice of the college QB's to convert to a NFL QB.
I think we'd have to change our system a bit. I'm not sure he'd survive with our present OL passing blocking.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Football IQ was about as high as the IQ that was present when he and Jim Kelly were scrumming in the tunnel out in Sandy Eggo that one time. He couldn't read a defense much better than Vick, always got picked if he threw beyond 25 yards and never made a quick read or decision. Good athlete but not too bright on the football field. Speaks well off of it so he was a bit deceptive in that regard.

And he still beat the ****ing Chiefs. :nono:

[NaptownChief]

And he still beat the ****ing Chiefs. :nono:



Effin' Zack Crockett beat the Chiefs that day.

[NaptownChief]

I think we'd have to change our system a bit. I'm not sure he'd survive with our present OL passing blocking.



O'Line protection is a lot like the golf swing...often times the cure is exactly opposite of rational logic. A mobile QB's natural tendency is to hold the ball longer and make something happen with his legs when in reality you need a QB that has absolutely no intention to use his legs and wants to get rid of the ball extremely quick. A smarter QB like Leinart would probably be some of the best medicine for that problem.

[DBroncos4life]

I think we'd have to change our system a bit. I'm not sure he'd survive with our present OL passing blocking.


You must have missed the part about being able to get the ball out of his hands before the rush got to him. Regardless our line maybe looking at a few new faces next year anyways. This is Nalens last go around, Cooper shouldn't be starting and Lepsis has a pretty high cap number. I want Matt to stay but thats it. I think we will see atleast two new starters along the line though.

[yavoon]

O'Line protection is a lot like the golf swing...often times the cure is exactly opposite of rational logic. A mobile QB's natural tendency is to hold the ball longer and make something happen with his legs when in reality you need a QB that has absolutely no intention to use his legs and wants to get rid of the ball extremely quick. A smarter QB like Leinart would probably be some of the best medicine for that problem.

this is a decent observation. in reality u dont want a bledsoe or a collins. but say a brady(who bill walsh calls the most mobile qb in the NFL) can make almost any oline look good, accurate quick releases and a good ability to slide around is far superior to rb type capabilities.

[yavoon]

to expound a little if u have someone like brady ur oline can engage in what I think the patriots oline does very well and thats just maintain blocks(hold) and let brady weasle around the slowed down penetration. if u have a collins or a bledsoe thats not as viable, and if u have a vick then the penetration causes a flee tactic.

[NaptownChief]

this is a decent observation. in reality u dont want a bledsoe or a collins. but say a brady(who bill walsh calls the most mobile qb in the NFL) can make almost any oline look good, accurate quick releases and a good ability to slide around is far superior to rb type capabilities.


Exactly...I remember all the talk about how "Manning will get killed behind that O Line with his lack of foot speed..." because Harbaugh lead the leauge in being sacked but it was exactly opposite. Immediately made that line look good cause he knew where the ball needed to go and didn't give the D Line a chance to get to him. Even today the Indy O Line gets credit for being good but I honestly think that is far from the truth. While pass blocking a bit different from run blocking the reality most good O Line do both well. The Colts are horrible in short yardage run situations and have been for a long time. James can never get the 1 or 2 yards needed for a goalline TD or a 1st down. They don't open holes worth a crap. But Manning's ability to adjust the protection schemes and change into the ideal play at the line is what keeps him from getting killed not that O Line.

[Mediator12]

Exactly...I remember all the talk about how "Manning will get killed behind that O Line with his lack of foot speed..." because Harbaugh lead the leauge in being sacked but it was exactly opposite. Immediately made that line look good cause he knew where the ball needed to go and didn't give the D Line a chance to get to him. Even today the Indy O Line gets credit for being good but I honestly think that is far from the truth. While pass blocking a bit different from run blocking the reality most good O Line do both well. The Colts are horrible in short yardage run situations and have been for a long time. James can never get the 1 or 2 yards needed for a goalline TD or a 1st down. They don't open holes worth a crap. But Manning's ability to adjust the protection schemes and change into the ideal play at the line is what keeps him from getting killed not that O Line.

Do not tell the OG deprived posters here about how INDY's OL is weak, There are still people bitchin' about Demulling ;D

As for the QB releasing the ball, That is my argument versus Jake. Shanahan does everything he can to give Jake Good presnap reads and he still can not make quick,intelligent choices. He still almost kills Rod Smith Twice per game, and does anyone blame Sharp for retiring with the ball he throws?

[bloodsunday]

O'Line protection is a lot like the golf swing...often times the cure is exactly opposite of rational logic. A mobile QB's natural tendency is to hold the ball longer and make something happen with his legs when in reality you need a QB that has absolutely no intention to use his legs and wants to get rid of the ball extremely quick. A smarter QB like Leinart would probably be some of the best medicine for that problem.
I'd rep you again for the golf swing bit.. but I can't.

I hear yeah and I think your argument about decision making is consistent with some of the issues that Jake has. I still think we'd have to improve the quality of our pass blocking with a less mobile QB. Griese was sacked 35 times in 2002. Plummer comes in and instantly that dropped. It was 15 last year with essentially the same personnel.

[bloodsunday]

this is a decent observation. in reality u dont want a bledsoe or a collins. but say a brady(who bill walsh calls the most mobile qb in the NFL) can make almost any oline look good, accurate quick releases and a good ability to slide around is far superior to rb type capabilities.
Can't Bill Walsh go away already? Wasn't he one of the yahoos that compared Griese to Montana?

[orange 4 life]

O'Line protection is a lot like the golf swing

what, you mean an offensive line is inconsistent, irritating, impossible to perfect, and causes one to use every profanity theyve ever heard :cuss: ?

[Mediator12]

what, you mean Jake Plummer is inconsistent, irritating, impossible to perfect, and causes one to use every profanity theyve ever heard :cuss: ?

Wow! that's the best summation of Jake Plummer's performances you have come up with yet Jake ;D

[NaptownChief]

I still think we'd have to improve the quality of our pass blocking with a less mobile QB. Griese was sacked 35 times in 2002. Plummer comes in and instantly that dropped. It was 15 last year with essentially the same personnel.



We were talking about smart QB's versus mobile ones...You just had to go off and find one that was neither. ;D

[orange 4 life]

What I saw was an absolutely abysmal performance in EVERY aspect of the game, From poor play calling by Shannahan, to poor QBing by Plummer, to the D being run over by a mediocre Miami O headed by :gus: Frerotte of all people. Just like when we had Brian :griese: at the helm, to put all the blame on one person is absolutely ludicrous. The entire team let us down, and they ALL have to improve. I just hope that some of the Griese Bashers finally are starting to realize what the rest of us have been saying all along, the problem is not just the QB.

amen brother. amen

[orange 4 life]

Yeah asking McNabb to be a game manager and asking Jake is a totally different task (apparently). I had high hopes for Jake but he continues to disappoint.

so you dont think his 15 td/7 int performance in '03 showed he can manage a game?
is that just distant memory?
has no relevance?

fact is, plummer has showed that he can manage this offense VERY effectively when put in the right circumstances.
when asked to do too much we get in trouble.

[orange 4 life]

bloodsunday, i am just sick and tired of the defense getting leveled after playing well in games and the offense NOT showing up. CAR, JAX, OAK, @SD, @KC, @IND. Hell, they really did not play well in TB last year either and everyone wonders why the defense wears down at the end of the year and the Playoffs!!!

Edit: The defense did not play well in KC either, but that does not excuse the Offense for their poor showing!!

This is a good, NOT GREAT, Defense that has the ability to keep the team in Games EVEN WHEN THE OFFENSE FAILS TO SHOW UP! The Miami game was not Over even after Booker beat Walls who should not even have been playing.

However, Jake Plummer has not led this team to a Comeback WIN that I CAN REMEMBER. He has had Chances. He had them Sunday after a pathetic First half and Stunk up the third Q as well. He was 6-17 after the HAlf, 8-24 after three when the score was 13-3. That's right the game was not over at the start of the Fourth Q, but we ALL KNEW the game was Over because their was no way in HELL Plummer would lead a comeback since he has not done so for this team yet.

So yeah, I think plummer's days SHOULD be numbered. However, I am not as delusional as some here who think it will happen sooner rather than too Late.

plummer led the comeback win against cleveland.

plummer led the comeback win against jville.....until griffin fumbled
plummer led the comeback against atlanta.....until watts dropped the td pass.
plummer led the comeback against the raiders....until watts dropped the td pass and elams kick was blocked.
he also killed clock in multiple other games where we needed him to do so.

he plays his best in crunchtime, and he always has.
problem is, no one else has the last couple years.

[NaptownChief]

so you dont think his 15 td/7 int performance in '03 showed he can manage a game?
is that just distant memory?
has no relevance?

fact is, plummer has showed that he can manage this offense VERY effectively when put in the right circumstances.
when asked to do too much we get in trouble.



As I mentioned earlier if all the other pieces and parts are together nicely then Jake can do what is needed to make it work. But why put yourself in a situation where you have a QB that is a liability that you have to put in a near perfect situation rather than a QB that can help you cover up for your other short comings? I'm not pretending that you can just run down to the drugstore and buy as many of those guys as you want but I am saying the team should be making the efforts to try and find that guy.

[orange 4 life]

Yeah but we have to think about the season as a whole, not one game here or there. Jake is a capable quarterback in some ways. He just does not appear to be capable of what we are asking him to do consistently over a period of an entire season. We need him (and the rest of the team) to put together 14 good games to have a good season.

what, you mean kinda like what jake did in '03?

11 starts. 15 td's. 7 int's (3 in the opener which was a blowout win).
lots of big plays.
very few mistakes.

how is it all you people forget that?

for crying out loud. the qb isnt the damn problem.

[orange 4 life]

Wow! that's the best summation of Jake Plummer's performances you have come up with yet Jake ;D

only problem is it was in reference to the golf swing.

if thats how you view plummers 2+ year performance then your expectations are friggin ludicrous.
it aint rocket science pal.

42 td's
27 int's
sacks cut in half.
back to back 10-6 seasons (coming on the heels of 8-8,9-7)
4100 yards last season
taking every snap from center (unlike the injury prone griese)
having ELEVEN of his int's tipped
having SEVEN of them come in two games in which we were more than 2 scores behind.
having a 15/7 td to int ratio his first season (in which he was not asked to do too much as he was a year ago)

what will it take for you people to see that the qb isnt the damn problem?

[Mediator12]

plummer led the comeback win against cleveland.

plummer led the comeback win against jville.....until griffin fumbled (Plummer managed two FG scoring drives and 0TD's)
plummer led the comeback against atlanta.....until watts dropped the td pass. (And, also threw the Game Clinching INT after the dropped TD)
plummer led the comeback against the raiders....until watts dropped the td pass and elams kick was blocked. (And led the Offense to three red Zone TO's that would have Made the FG moot)
he also killed clock in multiple other games where we needed him to do so. (By Handing the Ball off to Droughns without Fumbling the exchange??? Outstanding)

he plays his best in crunchtime, and he always has.
problem is, no one else has the last couple years.

Hey, I hate to tell you this Jake, THOSE WERE LOSSES. That you Attribute to others reveals how much Bias over Plummer you show. Everyone else is to blame but the guy who threw NO Winning TD's and had More TO's in the Red Zone than TD's in those losses.

As for CLE, I looked it up. His best move was to handoff to Portis that game. 0TD's, an INT that lead to a CLE TD means there was overtime to begin with. He did Have an Excellent game tying FG drive though, So I give him Credit for that.

[Mediator12]

only problem is it was in reference to the golf swing.

if thats how you view plummers 2+ year performance then your expectations are friggin ludicrous.
it aint rocket science pal.

42 td's
27 int's
sacks cut in half.
back to back 10-6 seasons (coming on the heels of 8-8,9-7)
4100 yards last season
taking every snap from center (unlike the injury prone griese)
having ELEVEN of his int's tipped
having SEVEN of them come in two games in which we were more than 2 scores behind.
having a 15/7 td to int ratio his first season (in which he was not asked to do too much as he was a year ago)

what will it take for you people to see that the qb isnt the damn problem?

jake, I was Joking about that post, because that is how Plummer plays TO ME! ;D I know you see it very different. Please answer me one question though: What must win Game has Plummer Won WITH the Broncos???

[rbackfactory80]

Hey, I hate to tell you this Jake, THOSE WERE LOSSES. That you Attribute to others reveals how much Bias over Plummer you show. Everyone else is to blame but the guy who threw NO Winning TD's and had More TO's in the Red Zone than TD's in those losses.

As for CLE, I looked it up. His best move was to handoff to Portis that game. 0TD's, an INT that lead to a CLE TD means there was overtime to begin with. He did Have an Excellent game tying FG drive though, So I give him Credit for that.


WHose best move as a qb that has portis is not handing it to him. Yeah in Cleveland he had his ups and downs but when the game was on the line he marched us right down the field. I give him props for that.

[rbackfactory80]

jake, I was Joking about that post, because that is how Plummer plays TO ME! ;D I know you see it very different. Please answer me one question though: What must win Game has Plummer Won WITH the Broncos???
Denver at Indy. To get in the playoffs two years ago.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

ROFL!

Orange 4 Life is homering out of control.

What is your answer when the QB can't complete a pass for the first 19 minutes of the game, Jake?

What about the fact that he can't read a defense for ****? Yeah...QB isn't the problem.

Maybe one of the O-Linemen can start audibling at the line and tell Plummer what to do.

[Mediator12]

Denver at Indy. To get in the playoffs two years ago.

Except they rested their Starters versus GB my friend. How was Jake versus INDY by the Way. Oh yeah, he spotted them seven on the First Pass of the game to Gary Brackett!

[orange 4 life]

Hey, I hate to tell you this Jake, THOSE WERE LOSSES. That you Attribute to others reveals how much Bias over Plummer you show. Everyone else is to blame but the guy who threw NO Winning TD's and had More TO's in the Red Zone than TD's in those losses.

As for CLE, I looked it up. His best move was to handoff to Portis that game. 0TD's, an INT that lead to a CLE TD means there was overtime to begin with. He did Have an Excellent game tying FG drive though, So I give him Credit for that.

mediator,
see it however you like.
youre obviously determined to blame plummer anytime we lose, and youre not alone.
Lord knows its easy that way.
heck, at least half our fans take that route since elway retired.

personally, i just call it like i see it, and its PAINFULLY obvious that plummer is and has been our best option at qb, and its also PAINFULLY obvious that he isnt the reason this team hasnt pushed past 10-6.

if you choose to see it that way, you go right ahead.
i wish i could look at that simply.
it would be alot easier to just blame one guy.
it would save me the time, agitation, and analysis of figuring out whats really gone wrong.

[rbackfactory80]

Except they rested their Starters versus GB my friend. How was Jake versus INDY by the Way. Oh yeah, he spotted them seven on the First Pass of the game to Gary Brackett!


And then fired right down field to put the brocos in scoring position.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

WHose best move as a qb that has portis is not handing it to him. Yeah in Cleveland he had his ups and downs but when the game was on the line he marched us right down the field. I give him props for that.

One comeback in two seasons. Fantastic! ROFL!

[Mediator12]

WHose best move as a qb that has portis is not handing it to him. Yeah in Cleveland he had his ups and downs but when the game was on the line he marched us right down the field. I give him props for that.

And I did too! I am not one sided with this. I once was on the Plummer Bandwagon Bigtime, however Plummer is proving that Old Dogs do not learn new tricks.

[orange 4 life]

WHose best move as a qb that has portis is not handing it to him. Yeah in Cleveland he had his ups and downs but when the game was on the line he marched us right down the field. I give him props for that.

regardless of his play prior (which is what mediator loves to point out), he basically ALWAYS marches us down the field in crunchtime.
now we just need to capitalize on those drives instead of wasting them away with dropped passes, fumbles, and blocked kicks.

[NaptownChief]

Jake with all due respect you appear to in a similar trap with Plummer as the Abusive Spouse Syndrome.

"Why don't you leave him? This is the 6th time he has beat the $hit out of you."

"Well I love him and even though he beats me up sometimes he does really good things..."



Cut bait my friend.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Jake...how do you rate Plummer's performance in the season opener? On a scale of 1 to 10?

[bloodsunday]

only problem is it was in reference to the golf swing.

if thats how you view plummers 2+ year performance then your expectations are friggin ludicrous.
it aint rocket science pal.

42 td's
27 int's
sacks cut in half.
back to back 10-6 seasons (coming on the heels of 8-8,9-7)
4100 yards last season
taking every snap from center (unlike the injury prone griese)
having ELEVEN of his int's tipped
having SEVEN of them come in two games in which we were more than 2 scores behind.
having a 15/7 td to int ratio his first season (in which he was not asked to do too much as he was a year ago)

what will it take for you people to see that the qb isnt the damn problem?
I guess we should stand up and salute Jake for one more win a season. I am thinking about higher goals than 10 - 6. The QB is one of the problems.

[orange 4 life]

ROFL!

Orange 4 Life is homering out of control.

What is your answer when the QB can't complete a pass for the first 19 minutes of the game, Jake?

What about the fact that he can't read a defense for ****? Yeah...QB isn't the problem.

Maybe one of the O-Linemen can start audibling at the line and tell Plummer what to do.

go **** yourself dipsh!t.

"homering out of control" would include a woody paige like 19-0 prediction.
it would include saying plummer is the best qb in the nfl.

read what i write idiot stick.

i wrote FACTS you dumb son of a b!tch.

how is it "homering" to place blame on the APPROPRIATE parties instead of simply heaping it all on the qb?

nevermind. dont answer.
i'd rather not read any more of your downs syndrome posts anyway.
run along.
wapner at 2:00.

[bloodsunday]

Denver at Indy. To get in the playoffs two years ago.
Jake didn't win that game... Griffin did. Jake tried to give it away by spotting them 7 points.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Seriously...scale of 1 to 10.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Who had the better game against Miami, Jake?

Plummer....or the Defense?

[bloodsunday]

We were talking about smart QB's versus mobile ones...You just had to go off and find one that was neither. ;D
Griese was football smart. He had the highest wonderlic ever scored by a Bronco I believe. His problem was that he paniced. The hot-potato play will live in infamy. Anyway, my point was really that a less mobile QB would account for a lot of sacks in our current system. That isn't necessarily the end of the world though. It's two negative plays a game. I'd take 2 more sacks a game in exchange for one less pick.

[orange 4 life]

And I did too! I am not one sided with this. I once was on the Plummer Bandwagon Bigtime, however Plummer is proving that Old Dogs do not learn new tricks.

great.

THEN EXPLAIN 2003 PLEASE!!!

again.

EXPLAIN 2003?

its ****ING MIND BOGGLING that the new ADD generation nfl fan just cant see past their nose.
when given the tools and not asked to do too much plummer is an OUTSTANDING player for us, and clearly one who possesses playmaking skills and the ability to elevate his game in the 4th quarter.

when asked to BE the offense and throw 40+ times a game, he makes alot of mistakes along with making plays.

now seriously.
what about that is difficult to grasp?

[NaptownChief]

Griese was football smart. He had the highest wonderlic ever scored by a Bronco I believe.


I would say he leans more towards book smart and not football smart.

[orange 4 life]

Jake...how do you rate Plummer's performance in the season opener? On a scale of 1 to 10?

3
maybe 4 or 5 considering the gameplan was horrible and put him in 3rd and long all day.

basically sh!tty, right along with everyone else's.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Yeah, he played OK in 2003, if you're willing to put your QB on a leash.

You won't get 27 touchdowns that way, but whatever.

And he still played like crap in the 2003 playoff game.

Of course putting Plummer on a leash without a dynamic back like Portis might completely hamstring your offense.

[orange 4 life]

point?

[rbackfactory80]

Jake didn't win that game... Griffin did. Jake tried to give it away by spotting them 7 points.


If you want to say that then the o line won that game

[Rock Chalk]

Hey, I hate to tell you this Jake, THOSE WERE LOSSES. That you Attribute to others reveals how much Bias over Plummer you show. Everyone else is to blame but the guy who threw NO Winning TD's and had More TO's in the Red Zone than TD's in those losses.

As for CLE, I looked it up. His best move was to handoff to Portis that game. 0TD's, an INT that lead to a CLE TD means there was overtime to begin with. He did Have an Excellent game tying FG drive though, So I give him Credit for that.
He threw winning TDs dip****, the receivers just didnt catch them.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

point?

My point is, I don't think Shanahan is going to go back to that, especially without Portis. And you won't really accomplish anything doing it.

[bloodsunday]

mediator,
see it however you like.
youre obviously determined to blame plummer anytime we lose, and youre not alone.
Lord knows its easy that way.
heck, at least half our fans take that route since elway retired.
Your right in that the easy way is to blame the QB. But when you are throwing left handed passes (and still winning) then its also obvious that your not the only reason the team is winning. Plummer threw 20 picks last year. That is far too many. Yes this team has other issues, but Plummer is not a QB that we are going to win a championship with.

personally, i just call it like i see it, and its PAINFULLY obvious that plummer is and has been our best option at qb, and its also PAINFULLY obvious that he isnt the reason this team hasnt pushed past 10-6.

He is the best option of the QBs we have. He's not the best option that we could have pursued over the past 3 years.

[Bronco9798]

Anybody that blames that Miami loss solely on Jake is just stupid.

[orange 4 life]

I guess we should stand up and salute Jake for one more win a season. I am thinking about higher goals than 10 - 6. The QB is one of the problems.

we should note the improvement.
we should see that '04 was a couple PLAYS away from being a very different year.
we should realize that plummers performance in '03 compared to '04 shows CLEARLY what he can and cannot do.

again, it aint rocket science.
give him the weapons and put him in a decent situation and he excels.
ask him to do too much and he makes mistakes along with the big plays.

what part of that is confusing?

and what player are you planning on bringing in that can take the team on his shoulders like elway?
in fact, how many qb's since elway retired have that ability?

thats your expectation for plummer?

thats a ridiculous expectation.

[bloodsunday]

regardless of his play prior (which is what mediator loves to point out), he basically ALWAYS marches us down the field in crunchtime.
now we just need to capitalize on those drives instead of wasting them away with dropped passes, fumbles, and blocked kicks.
So the other 45 minutes in a game don't count? The guy is a medicore QB at best. He has been the same since he came into the leauge. He had one decent (statistical) season in 9 years and that was with Clinton Portis and Shannon Sharpe on the team. Oh and he broke his foot getting up off the coach and screwed our season.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

If you want Jake to be a caretaker, Trent Dilfer-type QB, then you should be flaming mad at Mike Shanahan for dumping your offensive weapons after 2003.

Are you mad at Mike?

[orange 4 life]

Yeah, he played OK in 2003, if you're willing to put your QB on a leash.

You won't get 27 touchdowns that way, but whatever.

And he still played like crap in the 2003 playoff game.

Of course putting Plummer on a leash without a dynamic back like Portis might completely hamstring your offense.

we dont need 27 td's tard star. elway had 27 td's ONE time.

we need 20 along with alot more rushing td's.

[rbackfactory80]

YOu guys are lucky you don't have to put up with Kyle Boller.

[bloodsunday]

I would say he leans more towards book smart and not football smart.
No he's football smart. That's why Gruden loves him as much as Shanny did. Great football minds like QBs that understand the game and can see the way they do. Griese just couldn't cut it mentally here. He had the tools, but he just didn't have the head. The pressure got to him and he would just hang his head.

[bloodsunday]

great.

THEN EXPLAIN 2003 PLEASE!!!

again.

EXPLAIN 2003?
Brian Griese - 2000 -
2688 yds
8.00 yds/att
19 TDs
4 INTs
102.9 rating

and a playoff berth. Does that mean he should still be our QB?

[orange 4 life]

Anybody that blames that Miami loss solely on Jake is just stupid.

thats a nice, short, not to mention ACCURATE statement.

this is REALLY ****ing simple people.

the ENTIRE team played like sh!t. coaches included.
can everyone agree on that?

great. then why do we only talk about the qb?

if we go with that moronic mindset, then i guess he's the only one we can talk about after a win too right?

[Bob's your Information Minister]

YOu guys are lucky you don't have to put up with Kyle Boller.

I hate to sound like I'm defending Plummer, but Kyle Boller would look even worse if you plopped him in Denver.

Boller has gobs of all-pro weapons around him on every level of offense yet the Ravens offense still sucks.

[bloodsunday]

If you want to say that then the o line won that game
Yeah they probably did.

[orange 4 life]

Brian Griese - 2000 -
2688 yds
8.00 yds/att
19 TDs
4 INTs
102.9 rating

and a playoff berth. Does that mean he should still be our QB?

you could make the argument.

fans blamed him for everything in '01 and '02, and he wasnt the primary problem.
the only reason i supported the decision to replace him is because plummer is a VOCAL leader (which i think the team needed) and he has mobility, which is something our offense desperately needs at the qb position.

how's griese doing now?

[bloodsunday]

we should note the improvement.
Noted. next.

we should see that '04 was a couple PLAYS away from being a very different year.
Loser's lament. San Diego was one or two plays away from the 2nd round of the playoffs. It means nothing.

we should realize that plummers performance in '03 compared to '04 shows CLEARLY what he can and cannot do.
He's CLEARLY and average QB.

again, it aint rocket science.
give him the weapons and put him in a decent situation and he excels.
ask him to do too much and he makes mistakes along with the big plays.
If it ain't rocket science then how come one of the brightest minds in football can't make a winner out of him?

what part of that is confusing?
The part where Jake is a good QB.

and what player are you planning on bringing in that can take the team on his shoulders like elway?
in fact, how many qb's since elway retired have that ability?

thats your expectation for plummer?

thats a ridiculous expectation.
First of all, my argument is not with which QB we should bring in. The current argument is whether or not Jake is the guy. Simply saying he's the best we can do is a defeatists attitude. Hell I'm thinking Jake Delhome was the better Jake that offseason. There are options every offseason, they just don't all mean we'll have an immediate starter with NFL experience. We have completely ignored QBs in the draft. We have fumbled every opportunity to bring in a veteran backup.

[orange 4 life]

....and now a bunch of simple minded fans want to run another qb out of town.

ELWAY IS NOT COMING BACK.

do you people understand that?

do you also understand that trent dilfer and brad johnson have superbowl rings?

wanna sell me on them being better than plummer?

if you can sell that idea you'd make alot of money going door to door with that great new ginsu knife set!!

[Bob's your Information Minister]

how's griese doing now?

Pretty good, actually.

[bloodsunday]

how's griese doing now?
Well it depends on how you wanna look at it?

Statistically... still better than Jake.

Wins and Loses... he's won a game on the road in week 1.

Last season... his team struggled and he put up good numbers.

I'd say he and Jake are about equivalent in my book. I'll pass on both.

[yavoon]

....and now a bunch of simple minded fans want to run another qb out of town.

ELWAY IS NOT COMING BACK.

do you people understand that?

do you also understand that trent dilfer and brad johnson have superbowl rings?

wanna sell me on them being better than plummer?

if you can sell that idea you'd make alot of money going door to door with that great new ginsu knife set!!

both dilfer and johnson are more accurate than plummer. infact lets look at the qb's who win superbowls.

warner - supreme accuracy
brady - good accuracy
johnson - good accuracy
dilfer - good accuracy

lets look at their scrambling

warner - almost none
brady - minimal
johnson - almost none
dilfer - almost none

[DB-Freak]

We need someone who doesn't fold under pressure.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

All those guys can read a defense, too.

'course they all had much better players around them, too.

[sirhcyennek81]

good lord...would hate to wonder what this board was like in 1999 when we went 6-10...its one loss. 15 more games to go.

[orange 4 life]

i give up.

continue people. bitch till youre blue in the face.

i just have to accept that while i love the broncos more than most anything in life, i just dont love the way theyre supported anymore.

the last few years, i find myself irritated by bronco fans more than raider or chief fans.
oh well. such is life.
our fans will never be the way they used to be, and it sucks.

go to it.
have fun blasting off on another qb.
maybe you can raise enough hell and get him kicked out of town too so we can start over with someone else.
probably someone worse, but dont let that stop you. :thumbsup:

[bloodsunday]

....and now a bunch of simple minded fans want to run another qb out of town.
First of all, I'm not simple minded. I have noted on this board that Denver is trying to become a defensive team. They are trying to copy-cat successful teams with game managing QBs (at least to some extent). But game managing QBs don't throw 20 picks. I have also noted that I think the personnel and system are flawed. I don't believe that Jake is the only issue. But he is a huge issue under the current system.

ELWAY IS NOT COMING BACK.

do you people understand that?
No he's not. And franchise QBs don't grow on trees. But the flipside of this argument is to say that a franchise QB with this team would win much more consistently. You put Tom Brady on this team today and its a playoff contender. They probably go 12 - 4 or better.

do you also understand that trent dilfer and brad johnson have superbowl rings?
Yes, but they executed the job of game manager much better than Jake has. Not to mention their defenses were much better than ours. Baltimore's was the most dominant defense this league has ever seen.

[orange 4 life]

good lord...would hate to wonder what this board was like in 1999 when we went 6-10...its one loss. 15 more games to go.

i wouldnt want to see it.

i miss the 70's and 80's when our fans actually supported our team.
unfortunately, thats called "homering" now, and the model fan is the one
that calls for the qb's head after every game.

my love for the broncos will never change.
my love for alot of their fans is close to dead.

peace all.
have a great day.

[yavoon]

i wouldnt want to see it.

i miss the 70's and 80's when our fans actually supported our team.
unfortunately, thats called "homering" now, and the model fan is the one
that calls for the qb's head after every game.

my love for the broncos will never change.
my love for alot of their fans is close to dead.

peace all.
have a great day.

u want some help cleaning the sand out of ur vag? this whole board was building up the homer engine the entire offseason, we had managed to go into a very optimistic mode even though now looking back we have just lost 3 out of our last 5 games by more than 20 pts(and taht counts indy putting in the third stringers).

[sirhcyennek81]

wonder what will happen if denver goes 15-1. you will get one moron bitching about the one loss 3 months prior...

[yavoon]

wonder what will happen if denver goes 15-1. you will get one moron b****ing about the one loss 3 months prior...

then we'll all talk about how brilliant and infallible everyone is. the ride goes both ways.

[DB-Freak]

Sand out of the vagina. Classic stuff Yavoon.

It seems like such a great idea until you actually lay down and you're just like "**** it."

[bloodsunday]

i give up.

continue people. b**** till youre blue in the face.

i just have to accept that while i love the broncos more than most anything in life, i just dont love the way theyre supported anymore.

the last few years, i find myself irritated by bronco fans more than raider or chief fans.
oh well. such is life.
our fans will never be the way they used to be, and it sucks.

go to it.
have fun blasting off on another qb.
maybe you can raise enough hell and get him kicked out of town too so we can start over with someone else.
probably someone worse, but dont let that stop you. :thumbsup:
Take it easy. We all want the same thing you do. My wife left the house this weekend because she's scared to have the kids around me when the Broncos are playing ;D No one wants this team to win more than I do. But we are way off track right now, IMHO. We are caught up in a series of hole-plugging and one year fixes. Jake is included in that. What we need is a plan to turn this team around. It may take more than one year. It may include Jake Plummer as the QB with more offensive talent around him. It may not. But we just cannot ignore the results by telling ourselves that a player here or there or a play here or there is the fix. Other than a 1,000 yard rusher and being a top 5 yardage team, this team has nothing to hang its hat on right now. We need to have at least one truly dominant unit.

Sunday's game was an example of what is wrong with this team and the reason that everyone is so freaked. They thought (hoped) we had fixed the issues. Our offense could not get anything going. Our defense was good, but not good enough to shutout an average offense. Our defense was not good enough to hold up for 4 quaters. It's a bad cycle. We need one unit that we know can keep us ball games regardless of what the other unit does.

[sirhcyennek81]

by the sounds of several on this board, it's like denver went 0-16. wish i could say to you people grow up, but you will take offense to being told to grow up. its a game. i would have preferred if denver won 34-10, they did not. oh well. on to week two. complaining about a game that has already been played wont change the result.

[bloodsunday]

by the sounds of several on this board, it's like denver went 0-16. wish i could say to you people grow up, but you will take offense to being told to grow up. its a game. i would have preferred if denver won 34-10, they did not. oh well. on to week two. complaining about a game that has already been played wont change the result.
No, they are 0 - 1. But being 1 - 1 at the end of next week won't change the problems. If they win the Division and/or a playoff game, then I will consider the possibility they are making progress. Until then, I reserver the right to have an opinion even if its a critical one.

Seriously, do you think Shanny runs around after a win thinking everything is great? No. He must consider ways to improve this team in even in victory. Is it so wrong if the fans want to do the same?

[sirhcyennek81]

is it wrong that moments after the game people were advocating the firing of shanahan and the removal of the starting qb after ONE game? be critical, dont be stupid.

[yavoon]

is it wrong that moments after the game people were advocating the firing of shanahan and the removal of the starting qb after ONE game? be critical, dont be stupid.

I dont see why its one game. plummer has been in denver far more than one game. do we give him a clean slate every season?

[sirhcyennek81]

Yes. you give him a clean slate every season. What he did last year, good and bad...was last year. that has no effect on this season. He played poorly week one of the 2005 season. as did the rest of the offense.

[yavoon]

Yes. you give him a clean slate every season. What he did last year, good and bad...was last year. that has no effect on this season. He played poorly week one of the 2005 season. as did the rest of the offense.

thats insanity. unless we're in some bad episode of body snatchers I'm pretty sure the past matters.

[sirhcyennek81]

so...plummer throwing 27 td's and 20 int's helps or hurts this season how? how does an 80 yard td pass to rod smith in the snow vs. oakland LAST season help what happened sunday?

[yavoon]

so...plummer throwing 27 td's and 20 int's helps or hurts this season how? how does an 80 yard td pass to rod smith in the snow vs. oakland LAST season help what happened sunday?

it helps evaluate plummer. u must have a hard time signing free agents:)

[sirhcyennek81]

most rediculous argument i have ever had involving football. No player is the same year to year, not one. The previous season is nothing more then an indicator of how a player might play.

[yavoon]

most rediculous argument i have ever had involving football. No player is the same year to year, not one. The previous season is nothing more then an indicator of how a player might play.

nothing more than an indicator? U mean its completely useless unless u want an idea of how the player will perform in the future? well crap lets just use it for that then!

[Mediator12]

The funny thing about it jake is you have zero culpability to Plummer. I will give him credit where it is due, by his performance not by his attitude. I will not Call 33% through three Quarters anything better than a 2 out of ten. I will not give him a Pass when he stinks up the joint and finishes the game with 170 meaningless passing yards when he can NOT Complete more than One pass on third DOWN! I will not Call him accurate when The best WR we have has to leave his feet for 60% of his catches. I will not give him credit for putting the Ball behind his receivers on 40% of the Balls that were Catchable.

I will never say that All the blame rests with Plummer, but when He is that BAD and Gets drops and poor route running he NEVER RECOVERS. Sure it is frustrating as Hell when Lelie or Watts drop TD passes. What is even more frustrating is watching Plummer not overcome it on the next play.

[-Slap-]

Plummer was a League laughing stock in AZ. Shanahan and Kubiak transformed him into a serviceable quarterback, but there's a limit to what coaching can do.

Its not just that Jake is stupid. Hell, Terry Bradshaw is dumber than half the people on this board and he called his own frigging plays. Jake reminds me of the dumb guy who thinks he's clever. As most of us know, this is the most dangerous kind of fool. If you can't identify this brand of moron on sight, its probably because you share a similar affliction.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Plummer was a League laughing stock in AZ. Shanahan and Kubiak transformed him into a serviceable quarterback, but there's a limit to what coaching can do.

Its not just that Jake is stupid. Hell, Terry Bradshaw is dumber than half the people on this board and he called his own frigging plays. Jake reminds me of the dumb guy who thinks he's clever. As most of us know, this is the most dangerous kind of fool. If you can't identify this brand of moron on sight, its probably because you share a similar affliction.

That is brilliant.

[bloodsunday]

is it wrong that moments after the game people were advocating the firing of shanahan and the removal of the starting qb after ONE game? be critical, dont be stupid.
If people are advocating either they should be doing it on the entire body of work (like Jake's 9 year NFL career) not one game. I haven't seen many suggesting Shanny be fired. But tons of sentiments for Kube. I saw those before the season ever started.

[bloodsunday]

it helps evaluate plummer. u must have a hard time signing free agents:)
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to yavoon again.

[sutoazul]

I just think that everyone played horrible. It wasn't our day, everything when wrong at the worst moment. Our receviers did not get open, when they were open the Plummer threw it behind or too high, our if it was catchable the receiver dropped it. The only good catch that I saw was the Rod Smith... and that was well over thrown!! I couldn't believe the strecht that Smith got to grab that ball.

[orinjkrush]

Jake simply didn't play like a professional quarterback yesterday. And I disagree with anyone who says it wasn't one of his worst outings. It sure was. At least as a Bronco. I can't speak for his play in Arizona. I have seen every snap he's taken as a Bronco and this was some of the worst quarterbacking he's supplied. I thought it was worse than his first half at Indy last year, and that's saying something.

makes you wonder about all that "great" QB coaching offseason, doesn't it?

[Bronco9798]

Plummer was a League laughing stock in AZ. Shanahan and Kubiak transformed him into a serviceable quarterback, but there's a limit to what coaching can do.

Its not just that Jake is stupid. Hell, Terry Bradshaw is dumber than half the people on this board and he called his own frigging plays. Jake reminds me of the dumb guy who thinks he's clever. As most of us know, this is the most dangerous kind of fool. If you can't identify this brand of moron on sight, its probably because you share a similar affliction.

That's pretty harsh but you got to call it like you see it, I understand. I just hope (and yeah I'm hoping) that he shows people somehow that he can lead this team through the playoffs. I'm a Jake supporter. He makes me cringe everytime he steps back in the pocket or rolls out but I'm hoping he proves people wrong and makes his third year here the best year of his career.

[Rock Chalk]

That's pretty harsh but you got to call it like you see it, I understand. I just hope (and yeah I'm hoping) that he shows people somehow that he can lead this team through the playoffs. I'm a Jake supporter. He makes me cringe everytime he steps back in the pocket or rolls out but I'm hoping he proves people wrong and makes his third year here the best year of his career.
Elway used to make me cringe. Jake makes me bite my nails. With Griese, I just knew I was going to throw my hands up in disgust, :cuss: at the TV a lot, drink heavily and wish it never happened.

I still like Jake. I dont think Jake could have saved that game. When we finally did get something going when we got that first TD and were right back in it, what happens? Yeah, big play, TD. Good ****ing job. Game over and everyone knew it then, except Rod and Jake. The defense just flat out gave up. Yeah, they worked hard that game, yeah they did stay out there for a long period of time, but Jesus Christ, didnt they just go through two a days at Training camp IN JULY and AUGUST? I dont care where you are, its ****ing hot. And they should be well conditioned to play for 30 to 45 minutes.

Someone's gotta do it. Why is the defense the only ones that get tired? WRs run lots of routes, just as much as anyone on defense does, RBs gotta run, block or run a route on any given play, linemen are blocking beasts on every play, trying to pick up blitzes and our QB more often than not is running around on designed bootlegs or scrambling for his life behind a line that cant protect ****.

No excuses for the offense ever getting tired when it does have 7-12 minute time killing drives.

Defense forces a three and out, they dont have to work as hard and dont get tired as fast. Simple as that. With only two punts in the first half, two more on turnovers neither of which came in the first series of either drive, and two scores, sounds to me a lot like the defense had a rough go of it. Granted, they held them to 6 points and Denver's offense was lucky to be in the game still, but they were sustained drives, maybe not tremendous time killers, but sustained drives the defense failed to make plays on (the two scoring drives).

It wasnt just Jake. Jake was clearly a problem. I didnt see it but I know when you do not complete a pass in the first NINETEEN minutes of gametime, then you are not doing a very good job. However, I think some credit is due to a dolphins defensive scheme designed to take advantages of Jake's weaknesses.

Good job Saban.

Point is, Shanny didnt make the adjustments he needed to make at halftime to get this team in gear. We were still in the game. And we came out flatter than flat, the same predictable ****.

Coaching, defense and even special teams are as much to blame as the offense. No one thing better would have made the outcome any different. Many things had to have been better.

**** Miami Im done with them.

[fontaine]

In the nfl you are what you are. Plummer has had three years in this offense and by Shanahan's own admission he should be well versed with the offense and after almost a decade in the NFL of starting football he should be able to read defenses.

I'm willing to give Plummer a few more games to see if Miami was an aberration/bad day at the office. But if I don't see improvement soon then CUT BAIT.

[Circle Orange]

good lord...would hate to wonder what this board was like in 1999 when we went 6-10...its one loss. 15 more games to go.


Open panic is always good. Gets the blood flowing. :yep:

[Mediator12]

Elway used to make me cringe. Jake makes me bite my nails. With Griese, I just knew I was going to throw my hands up in disgust, :cuss: at the TV a lot, drink heavily and wish it never happened.

I still like Jake. I dont think Jake could have saved that game. When we finally did get something going when we got that first TD and were right back in it, what happens? Yeah, big play, TD. Good ****ing job. Game over and everyone knew it then, except Rod and Jake. The defense just flat out gave up. Yeah, they worked hard that game, yeah they did stay out there for a long period of time, but Jesus Christ, didnt they just go through two a days at Training camp IN JULY and AUGUST? I dont care where you are, its ****ing hot. And they should be well conditioned to play for 30 to 45 minutes.

Someone's gotta do it. Why is the defense the only ones that get tired? WRs run lots of routes, just as much as anyone on defense does, RBs gotta run, block or run a route on any given play, linemen are blocking beasts on every play, trying to pick up blitzes and our QB more often than not is running around on designed bootlegs or scrambling for his life behind a line that cant protect ****.

No excuses for the offense ever getting tired when it does have 7-12 minute time killing drives.

Defense forces a three and out, they dont have to work as hard and dont get tired as fast. Simple as that. With only two punts in the first half, two more on turnovers neither of which came in the first series of either drive, and two scores, sounds to me a lot like the defense had a rough go of it. Granted, they held them to 6 points and Denver's offense was lucky to be in the game still, but they were sustained drives, maybe not tremendous time killers, but sustained drives the defense failed to make plays on (the two scoring drives).

It wasnt just Jake. Jake was clearly a problem. I didnt see it but I know when you do not complete a pass in the first NINETEEN minutes of gametime, then you are not doing a very good job. However, I think some credit is due to a dolphins defensive scheme designed to take advantages of Jake's weaknesses.

Good job Saban.

Point is, Shanny didnt make the adjustments he needed to make at halftime to get this team in gear. We were still in the game. And we came out flatter than flat, the same predictable ****.

Coaching, defense and even special teams are as much to blame as the offense. No one thing better would have made the outcome any different. Many things had to have been better.

**** Miami Im done with them.

Great analysis alec. Now explain to me the inverse of your argument. Why the F*** does Plummer get any credit For sucking for three Q's??? Then committing two INT's in the fourth AGAIN to seal the deal? Why Does he get ANY credit for 1-4 Red Zone TD%. WTF does the offense not get pummeled for SCORING A measly 10 points on the Dolphins and having 70 rushing yards?

For Goodness sake, he was 8-24, a whopping 33%, through three Q's with 5 of those Catches being behind the receiver and almost Killing Rod Smith enough that he was unavailable for the Red Zone on that series. I wonder why Miami was able to sit back in base coverages with that kind of performance.

Shanahan said and I QUOTE: "I was thinking about all my years as a head coach, and all my years as a coordinator," Shanahan said. "I don't know if I've ever had an offense that put as much pressure on a defense the way we did in that game."

You think a man with the Ego the size of Shanahan's is going to admit that was one of the WORST Offensive performances in his Career just to make Larry Coyer happy? I think Not. He just admitted he got his ass kicked to the whole world and you are scrambling to justify a faulty position.

Hell, Alec we all know your ego is bigger than Mike's so I would not expect you to ever admit your reaching. I look forward to your cursing and defensive response alec. It should be one to boost your rep with its pathetic venom and aggresiveness.

[bloodsunday]

I agree with this post 100%.

In the nfl you are what you are. Plummer has had three years in this offense and by Shanahan's own admission he should be well versed with the offense and after almost a decade in the NFL of starting football he should be able to read defenses.
Yes. Each season is not a clean slate. Plummer deserves criticism based on the fact that we he did on Sunday is similar to what he has done his entire career.

I'm willing to give Plummer a few more games to see if Miami was an aberration/bad day at the office. But if I don't see improvement soon then CUT BAIT.
Yes. Plummer is our QB for this season. We have to see how things pan out. He was clearly not the only player at fault in this game. However, he was not an innocent victim either. Given his history and the results we have observed over the past 2+ years in Denver, this should be his make or break season, IMO. I just wish we hadn't extended and reworked his deal in the offseason.

[Rascal]

Question regarding Plummer.

Didn't we just reup his contract or something? If we could rid of him we would be in salary cap hell for severa years.

[fontaine]

Question regarding Plummer.

Didn't we just reup his contract or something? If we could rid of him we would be in salary cap hell for severa years.

Rascal, honestly man, no disrespect intended, but

WHO THE **** CARES?!

If you've got gangreen on your foot you don't say to the surgeon, urm how much is it going to cost me to repair it?
:bash:

You just amputate and get rid of it.

I hope Plummer does improve and finally starts to grow into his role.

But if Plummer continues to get baffled, confused, and thrown off by a defense designed to take away the run and force him to make accurate passes to WRs who are likely one on one with little S help(in other words, force him to be - heaven forbid - A QUARTERBACK! ), then get rid of him NO MATTER WHAT THE COST.

I'd rather pay a chump peanuts to suck (BVP)

than pay a chump millions to do the same thing(plummer)

[Rascal]

LOL!!

If we get rid of him it will basically force us to rebuild again...just so you know.

[fontaine]

LOL!!

If we get rid of him it will basically force us to rebuild again...just so you know.

:yep:
What do you think we'll be doing in one/two years time when Plummer finally loses the one redeeming part of his game because of age: His mobility?

Anyone here think Plummer will morph into an efficient pocket passer who can check down, call the right audibles, go through quick progressions/reads and deliver an accurate pass in stride to the WR, with more than 60% accuracy once he loses his mobility after one or two years?

I think not. He's got at the most two/three left in the league or as long as his feet can keep him mobile. We'll draft a QB next year in the draft regardless, it just remains to be seen whether Plummer can redeem himself and change his years of erratic play this season.

[bloodsunday]

Rascal, honestly man, no disrespect intended, but

WHO THE **** CARES?!

If you've got gangreen on your foot you don't say to the surgeon, urm how much is it going to cost me to repair it?
:bash:

You just amputate and get rid of it.

I hope Plummer does improve and finally starts to grow into his role.

But if Plummer continues to get baffled, confused, and thrown off by a defense designed to take away the run and force him to make accurate passes to WRs who are likely one on one with little S help(in other words, force him to be - heaven forbid - A QUARTERBACK! ), then get rid of him NO MATTER WHAT THE COST.

I'd rather pay a chump peanuts to suck (BVP)

than pay a chump millions to do the same thing(plummer)
gangreen... classic. Only the 49ers organization (and maybe the Chargers) would ask that question. If Plummer is bad enough, Denver will no doubt do damage control. Hell they even got rid of Griese.

[Rascal]

Fix the o-line and the Plummer complaints will drop dramatically. Because of the o-line's ineptitude we are forcing Jake to be a QB that he is not.

[bloodsunday]

Fix the o-line and the Plummer complaints will drop dramatically. Because of the o-line's ineptitude we are forcing Jake to be a QB that he is not.
For that matter... fix the OL and give me Kitna. Give me one of the Haselbach borthers. But just fix the damn OL.

[Rascal]

Yeap. Keep Plummer and give him a decent o-line. If he still sucks it up then get rid of him, but as TJ mentioned it won't matter who we have at QB if our o-line continues to perform at that level.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Who was it that said your O-Line wasn't up to snuff last year? Who?

[orinjkrush]

I also happened to notice that he didn't throw an accurate pass the entire first half and when he did start throwing accurate passes, he threw them a hundred miles an hour with absolutely no touch whatsoever.

Come on Jake. Plummer was bad. That was some of the worst quarterbacking this team has seen since Griese melted down against Oakland.

The season isn't over, but criticism of Jake at this juncture is surely justified.

TJ, how in the world can a QB and two maybe 3 receivers not know each other completely? This is the NFL. Jeez, throwing on the run is a little weird, like jump shots while moving horizontally, but come on. These guys should know how each other thinks by now. SoB was precise. Jake isn't. But dam*it recievers need to go get the Go**amn ball!!!

[sirhcyennek81]

o line sets a franchise record for fewest sacks allowed and ranked 4th in rushing yards, and suddenly our line in the problem? Miami has a good defensiveline. They were better then we were last sunday. Christ, move on already.

[ozomulsion]

No need to read through all these posts. Plummer sucks when he doesn't have RB averaging 5+ yards a carry. It always has been that way and always will be. We should get our running game going this week. If that happens, all of Plummer's helpers will come out of the woodwork and say how great he is and I told you so. Still won't change the fact that he needs a good running game to have a good game himself.