What's the attitude of Bronco fans?

[bloodsunday]

I have been ridiculed on this board over the past few weeks for making some of the following comments*:

1) We need a new philosophy because our zone blocking offensive line is no longer effective. I suggested that an approach like Philly's where we build from the line out was a more effective approach.

2) I suggested that squandering draft picks was going to catch up with us.

3) I suggested that this team is not a contender and should not be considered a championship-caliber team.

So, what is the opinion of everyone now? I know its only one game, but this one game exposed just about every wart we have seen on this team over the past 7 seasons.

* I want to be clear that one thing I NEVER suggested (and will not now) is that Shanahan be fired. Shanahan is a wonderful coach. What I do hope is that Shanny sees the light and is willing to change. I think Shanahan and Billichick share a lot of qualities that make them both great coaches, but Billichick has shown a willingness to adapt and change that seems to be eluding Shanny.

[bloodsunday]

For the record, I voted for It's only one game, I'll know later in the season.

However, I stand by all the assertions I have made on this board. This team is starting to show its cracks and I don't believe we are any closer to being a division winner today than we were 5 years ago. The blue print to stop our vaunted offense now resides in every coaches offense in the league. It's time to start considering changes.

I think those changes should start with Lenny Walls and Ashley Lelie being benched for next Sunday's game.

[24champ]

Whats the attitude of us bronco fans? Gee i wonder.....i still hold out hope but those injuries we suffered arent good especially Champ.

[bloodsunday]

Whats the attitude of us bronco fans? Gee i wonder.....i still hold out hope but those injuries we suffered arent good especially Champ.
yeah its obvious... but I am talking more philosophical or long term. I was confronted with a bunch of preseason optimism two weeks ago and I'm curious to know if the fans have come back to earth a bit or if I am going to be accussed of thinking the sky falling.

[DBroncos4life]

yeah its obvious... but I am talking more philosophical or long term. I was confronted with a bunch of preseason optimism two weeks ago and I'm curious to know if the fans have come back to earth a bit or if I am going to be accussed of thinking the sky falling.



Its one ****ing loss. 16 teams will be 1-0 and 16 will be 0-1. This was hardly a season ending loss.

[bloodsunday]

Its one ****ing loss. 16 teams will be 1-0 and 16 will be 0-1. This was hardly a season ending loss.
So we know where your vote went. I think is a reasonable perspective. But you can't ignore the obvious weaknesses that were exposed yesterday.

[Old Dude]

Let's wait and see.

Obviously, part of what happened was due to untimely injuries to key players, the heat & humidity, and one of those weird days where the whole team just came out flat and everyone just decided to stink it up all at once.

I'll give them a week or two to turn things around.

Right now, I'm just hoping that the injuries aren't too severe.

[bendog]

Frankly, I thought Den's odds of winning were about 1-3, but the fact that Gus shredded us in the first half makes me ... uneasy. Could be a case of .... Kordell, and Gus really wants a go around again, and the sushi really didn't suck on offense that badly until Ricky split, even with whatwasthat for a coach and fiddler at qb.

[DBroncos4life]

So we know where your vote went. I think is a reasonable perspective. But you can't ignore the obvious weaknesses that were exposed yesterday.


I haven't voted.

[jonny1]

I don't know if it is the zone blocking scheme or not, but they HAVE to get bigger in the middle.

And that is going to take some time.

[bendog]

I don't know if it is the zone blocking scheme or not, but they HAVE to get bigger in the middle.

And that is going to take some time.

I dunno. We cannot continue to carry Hamilton and Nalen in the starting unit. It was ok when Lepsis and Neil were moving it on the right side. There's no solution this year, but it can be solved in a single offseason.

[CBF1]

Oh come on.... We are still going to win the Super Bowl.











































Yeah right

[BritBronco Maniac]

For the record, I voted for It's only one game, I'll know later in the season.

However, I stand by all the assertions I have made on this board. This team is starting to show its cracks and I don't believe we are any closer to being a division winner today than we were 5 years ago. The blue print to stop our vaunted offense now resides in every coaches offense in the league. It's time to start considering changes.

I think those changes should start with Lenny Walls and Ashley Lelie being benched for next Sunday's game.

I don't think it's a good time to bench Walls with Champ probably out next week. I think he was clearly bothered by the heat, do you think he would normally be beaten in a foot race by Marty Booker??
Lelie had a terrible game, but it will give him even more motivation for next week.

I'm willing to put this one down to the heat and humidity and a fired up Dolphins team playing their first game for their new coach.
Lets see what happens next week

[bloodsunday]

I don't know if it is the zone blocking scheme or not, but they HAVE to get bigger in the middle.

And that is going to take some time.
Denver utilizes a system where quicker lineman can zone block. Generally they are smallish guys because of the speed and finese required. Foster has been exception to our usual size limitation. The team also feels they can generally get those guys relatively cheap because the road-grader types are in more demand. Foster is also an exception here because the team actually wanted to try and trade that pick.

That's why I talk about it as a philosophy. You have to be willing to put resources (high picks and $$$$) toward that position. And with FA, you can only do it at so many positions. Denver must reach the conclusion at some point that their OL is not only not a strength of this team any more, but becoming a liability. At that point they must decide to where to take money away from and then put it into the OL.

In the NFL the best teams usually have one dominant unit and then another that plays to the strenght of that unit. For example, Indy has a great O and they compliment that on D by rushing the passer because they know they will be ahead in alot of games. We are kind of stuck with a good balance but no unit that can dominate when the game is on the line. We have nothing to "hand our hat on" sort of speak.

[anthonypacino]

It's is hard anticipating all off season then the first game they lay an egg like that, makes it hard to be optimistic, last year we dropped an early one to Jacksonville because of bad playacalling and mistakes, but basically we looked like the same team that played the last game a season ago, I too have been ridiculed by homers thinkng Denver was going 15-1. This might be Denver's last good shot at a title run for awhile, I questioned Anderson's durability, Tatum's lack of pass protection and ball handling, Kyle Johnson's lack of explosive lead blocking (short yardage we always have to use a TE or Gerard Warren, last year it was Carswell) Rod Smith is still effective but you can obviously see he is not what he once was, no one else has stepped up to complemint him on the other side, the line is in decline, I don't know if it is age or Dennison, but Nalen is almost done, Lynch will be gone after next year, Wilson will be a 10 year vet soon, DJ Williams will be a star here for a while, Elam isn't booting em' quite as well either, the core of this team will be in distress sooner than later, then we will have to endure the rebuilding process. Denver has to get their stuff together and get things done this year, because time is chasing down most of these key guys.

[yavoon]

Whats the attitude of us bronco fans? Gee i wonder.....i still hold out hope but those injuries we suffered arent good especially Champ.

if this I told u so time I did have a couple threads where I warned of what the secondary would look like w/ champ gone.

another funny observation, marty booker(a pretty slow posession receiver) outran lynch and walls, while that in itself isnt that amazing, it isnt very comforting to think half our starting secondary can't chase down a posession receiver when he's only given what? a 1 yard lead? what happens when branch, givens, holt, harrison, start running crossing routes on us? how are we going to defend them?

[Mediator12]

bloodsunday, it comes down to two things in the running game. Against the 3-4, the Zone blocking is less effective due to the distance to the LB's and their ability to take different gaps from that distance. However, the most important part is that Jake Plummer does not have the ability to adjust the play out of the teeth of the running defense. He continually hands the ball off into areas where the defense has overloaded the zones. There is no way a RB can get any positive yards when Defenders overload the gaps designed to be run into. There were only one or two plays with Cutback lanes yesterday and those were both of the long gains TB had.

I would love to say having bigger OG's would correct the ills of both of those things, but until Jake can beat teams with his arm CONSISTANTLY they will continue to follow the plan CIN used against us last year with Eight and Nine in the box on First Down and tight Man Coverage.

[Mediator12]

if this I told u so time I did have a couple threads where I warned of what the secondary would look like w/ champ gone.

another funny observation, marty booker(a pretty slow posession receiver) outran lynch and walls, while that in itself isnt that amazing, it isnt very comforting to think half our starting secondary can't chase down a posession receiver when he's only given what? a 1 yard lead? what happens when branch, givens, holt, harrison, start running crossing routes on us? how are we going to defend them?

dude, Walls should not have been in the game because of his physical condition. Lynch is slower than almost any WR in the game and was not going to catch booker.

As for being a smart ass as usual, name a team with its top 3 CB's out that has a chance to win ANY GAME??? It was 6-3 when Darrent left with Cramps.

[yavoon]

dude, Walls should not have been in the game because of his physical condition. Lynch is slower than almost any WR in the game and was not going to catch booker.

As for being a smart ass as usual, name a team with its top 3 CB's out that has a chance to win ANY GAME??? It was 6-3 when Darrent left with Cramps.

the patriots

[bloodsunday]

bloodsunday, it comes down to two things in the running game. Against the 3-4, the Zone blocking is less effective due to the distance to the LB's and their ability to take different gaps from that distance. However, the most important part is that Jake Plummer does not have the ability to adjust the play out of the teeth of the running defense. He continually hands the ball off into areas where the defense has overloaded the zones. There is no way a RB can get any positive yards when Defenders overload the gaps designed to be run into. There were only one or two plays with Cutback lanes yesterday and those were both of the long gains TB had.

I would love to say having bigger OG's would correct the ills of both of those things, but until Jake can beat teams with his arm CONSISTANTLY they will continue to follow the plan CIN used against us last year with Eight and Nine in the box on First Down and tight Man Coverage.
So what's the answer? Fire Jake like we did Griese and watch another $40 million float down the river? This is a good take on the problem (and a better one then I could have conjured up), but I am curious to know what its going to take to fix this team? Do others agree that there is some fixing to do?

Why was Shanny so quick to give Jake the money if he:
1) is an inaccurate passer
2) can't throw from the pocket
3) and makes poor pre-snap reads

[yavoon]

So what's the answer? Fire Jake like we did Griese and watch another $40 million float down the river? This is a good take on the problem (and a better one then I could have conjured up), but I am curious to know what its going to take to fix this team? Do others agree that there is some fixing to do?

Why was Shanny so quick to give Jake the money if he:
1) is an inaccurate passer
2) can't throw from the pocket
3) and makes poor pre-snap reads

because in poor lighting he might look like john elway?

[kent156]

wait and see approach the broncos are now 0-7 in miami they had the dark jerseys on jake sucks etc etc etc

[Mediator12]

the patriots

Good try, but they NEVER LOST the TOP 3. ONLY the TOP 2. Plus they play a great Zone which Denver never has had the last three years.

[yavoon]

Good try, but they NEVER LOST the TOP 3. ONLY the TOP 2. Plus they play a great Zone which Denver never has had the last three years.

u said name a team that has a chance to win w/ their top 3 cbs out. I did, the patriots.

[Rascal]

I don't know if it is the zone blocking scheme or not, but they HAVE to get bigger in the middle.

And that is going to take some time.

It wouldn't have to if we had picked up Demulling and drafted a guard in the third instead of Clarett.

[Mediator12]

u said name a team that has a chance to win w/ their top 3 cbs out. I did, the patriots.

Your right. They WOULD have a chance wouldn't they ;D. Can you name another for a bonus!

I forgot they have a QB and actually score points consistantly too thwack

[Cito Pelon]

For the record, I voted for It's only one game, I'll know later in the season.

However, I stand by all the assertions I have made on this board. This team is starting to show its cracks and I don't believe we are any closer to being a division winner today than we were 5 years ago. The blue print to stop our vaunted offense now resides in every coaches offense in the league. It's time to start considering changes.

I think those changes should start with Lenny Walls and Ashley Lelie being benched for next Sunday's game.

I've been on you for your negativity, but I didn't ridicule you, and I won't ridicule you now. Obviously, the Broncs have a long way to go, in terms of offensive playmaking, and also it's a long way to go to game 16. Still 15 left. Let's see who steps up as the new leaders on the team. I saw some younger guys step up and play well yesterday. Let's see if they start calling out some of the vets. The team is still searching for an identity, besides the current identity of being two-time losers at Indy.

I'm pleased to see the Broncs get humbled yesterday. I said before the game that I wanted to see a tough game, so I could see how the team responded. I was pleased to see a tough game, I saw the response, and now I'm looking forward to this next Sunday.

[yavoon]

Your right. They WOULD have a chance wouldn't they ;D. Can you name another for a bonus!

I forgot they have a QB and actually score points consistantly too thwack

dont forget a brilliant defensive schemer who can cover up weaknesses.

the eagles would also in all likelihood, infact I'd even say the colts, their defense is simple and theyhave rookies out there anyway.

well pretty much the really good teams, besides the steelers, the steelers would probably get hozed.

[kent156]

the broncos went from trying to copy the ravens defense didn't work then it was the bucs then the patriots what's next?

[Mediator12]

the broncos went from trying to copy the ravens defense didn't work then it was the bucs then the patriots what's next?

I just Wish Coyer would run HIS defense! I am sick of the Copying Comparisons. Get Aggresive Larry And Take some Chances! This Passive BS is starting to piss me OFF :hitself:

[Mile High Shack]

I just Wish Coyer would run HIS defense! I am sick of the Copying Comparisons. Get Aggresive Larry And Take some Chances! This Passive BS is starting to piss me OFF :hitself:

i saw a lot of Bob Slovich (sp?) of 2004 Packers yesterday too

[Hotrod]

Hotrod is in complete shock :nono: I refuse to get to down yet. Next week will tell me what I need to know about this team. Surely they will come out with something to prove but if they drop a turd against the chargers it will be along long season.

[Cito Pelon]

. . . . . . but until Jake can beat teams with his arm CONSISTANTLY they will continue to follow the plan CIN used against us last year with Eight and Nine in the box on First Down and tight Man Coverage.

That's the book on Denver's O. If I was an opposing DC, that's how I gameplan Denver.

It's a tough league. You win some, you lose some. The way I'm looking at this team right now is I see the younger guys, the non-vets, waiting for the older guys to make plays. What I'm looking for from now on is the younger guys, the non-vets, to call out the vets when they don't make plays.

The team needs to find a new identity. I've heard some talk about Shanny is getting old, and there's some merit to that talk. I'm never in the locker room, but seems to me Shanny does tend to coddle vets, when what they really need is a fire lit up under their ass.

So we'll see what happens. It's a looooonnnng season, and Mr. Bowlen said in a rare TV interview that he wants a playoff victory this year.

[yavoon]

That's the book on Denver's O. If I was an opposing DC, that's how I gameplan Denver.

It's a tough league. You win some, you lose some. The way I'm looking at this team right now is I see the younger guys, the non-vets, waiting for the older guys to make plays. What I'm looking for from now on is the younger guys, the non-vets, to call out the vets when they don't make plays.

The team needs to find a new identity. I've heard some talk about Shanny is getting old, and there's some merit to that talk. I'm never in the locker room, but seems to me Shanny does tend to coddle vets, when what they really need is a fire lit up under their ass.

So we'll see what happens. It's a looooonnnng season, and Mr. Bowlen said in a rare TV interview that he wants a playoff victory this year.

I dont know if shanny's problem is the vets so much as the younger players. we just never seem to get many of them to pan out. after the honeymoon we're left wanting.

[gunns]

I'll bet Bowlen is not thinking "we'll wait and see". I'll bet Shanahan is in his office today. I am not calling for Shanahan's firing after only one game but I am definitely calling for his removal from GM decision making and calling for a new GM. He seems to be in panic mode in regards to taking 3 corners and an attitude enriched RB when there was obvious other needs. The small offensive line players were good in their day but it's time to start evolving with today's NFL and quit playing Al Davis, clueless. And yes I still would like to see Kubiak gone.

[Hogan11]

Sometimes I'm actually glad I didn't get the game in my area......well, ok, not really but Man...

I'm not gonna lose it yet....it's one game, I can roll with that..........for now.

[bloodsunday]

I just Wish Coyer would run HIS defense! I am sick of the Copying Comparisons. Get Aggresive Larry And Take some Chances! This Passive BS is starting to piss me OFF :hitself:
This gets back to my whole argument about the Philosophy and design of the team. I think its flawed. We have had a series of one year fixes over the past six years. When you add it all up it doesn't make any sense. When you digest it one year or one player at a time it makes a ton of sense. That's Shanny the GM making life hard on Shanny the coach. Or perhaps you prefer to think of it as Shanny making GM decisions with his coaches hat on.

We keep drafting corners because every time we think we've fixed it, we haven't. We haven't drafted or attained a franchise QB because there is never a short term fix. (I know franchise QBs don't grow on trees but we haven't really tried -- 2 seventh round picks does not consitute effort). Instead we figure what we have is better than the available options. Same story for the d-line, o-line and WR. I understand that this team wants to win now and I understand that roster turnover is inevitable. But you still have to invest in the draft. You still have to bring in players that can learn your system and execute at a high level so that they may take over for veterans that depart as high-priced FA or just run out of gas.

We need to have a larger view of what we want from this team and how it should be constructed, not a mini-makeover every offseason to fix the loudest squeaking wheel.

Having 5 of our 20 picks from the '03 and '04 drafts on this team suggests that we have been drafting poorly period. Make any excuse you want, but this team should have at least 10 players on this roster and several of those as starters or key backups.

[Crushaholic]

Maybe we just got our boneheaded loss out of the way early. I voted "Everything will be fine". We have two division rivals at home in the next two weeks. If we lay an egg in those games, I might change my vote. We were outcoached, but the unknown can be a scary thing. We didn't know how Ronnie Brown will pan out, but our offense is basically the same as it was last year. That gives the preparation advantage to Miami and Nick Saban.

[bloodsunday]

Maybe we just got our boneheaded loss out of the way early. I voted "Everything will be fine". We have two division rivals at home in the next two weeks. If we lay an egg in those games, I might change my vote. We were outcoached, but the unknown can be a scary thing. We didn't know how Ronnie Brown will pan out, but our offense is basically the same as it was last year. That gives the preparation advantage to Miami and Nick Saban.
This all makes sense to me. If we take care of business the next two weeks, things will certainly look a whole lot better. But, I still don't think this is a championship caliber team. I hope its division winning caliber.

[Crushaholic]

This all makes sense to me. If we take care of business the next two weeks, things will certainly look a whole lot better. But, I still don't think this is a championship caliber team. I hope its division winning caliber.

The first step is winning the division. Then, (maybe) we can avoid our Achilles Heel...Indianapolis in January. :sickortir

[watermock]

Give me a break BloodSunday. This wasn't the only opinion you have thrown against the barn. There wasn't a single expert that expected Denver to lay such an egg, but your the great prophet? Give me a break. It's amusing because I don't recall you predicting a Denver loss. If you did, go ahead and post it.

Should I talk about how I felt that Nick Saban was most likely the best qualified to go to the NFL as a head coach? Or my first choice if Shanahan went to Florida?

The team looked unprepared, flat, out of shape, and poorly coached with a stubborn game plan that wasn't working. ESPN is saying they were stunned, and I'm simply pissed. The inactives were rediculous. Dayne and Roc should of been active. If Roc is inactive, why was he starting against Indy last playoff game? Why only 4 corners? Why do we have this Ernster guy active? Who is the new Duke?

WTF happened to Watts, he doesn't even show up on the stat sheet. Denver was 1-12 on third downs. Was that the defense's fault?

[Hulamau]

I have been ridiculed on this board over the past few weeks for making some of the following comments*:

1) We need a new philosophy because our zone blocking offensive line is no longer effective. I suggested that an approach like Philly's where we build from the line out was a more effective approach.

2) I suggested that squandering draft picks was going to catch up with us.

3) I suggested that this team is not a contender and should not be considered a championship-caliber team.

So, what is the opinion of everyone now? I know its only one game, but this one game exposed just about every wart we have seen on this team over the past 7 seasons.

* I want to be clear that one thing I NEVER suggested (and will not now) is that Shanahan be fired. Shanahan is a wonderful coach. What I do hope is that Shanny sees the light and is willing to change. I think Shanahan and Billichick share a lot of qualities that make them both great coaches, but Billichick has shown a willingness to adapt and change that seems to be eluding Shanny.


I dont know about any predictions, but unfortunately I have to agree on all three points until proven otherwise.

I rewatched the game on TIVO yesterday repeating in slow motion a lot of the key plays which was a painful excercise.


The main things that jump out for me were:

1. Abismal game-time coaching (once again) this team was totally unprepared for what Miami did on both offense and defense. God, do I wish we had grabbed the new offensive coordinator at Miami while he was coming from Minnesota (Frerotte would have come along as a decent backup too without question). He could have brought some fresh creative real-time playcalling into the stale boneyard of a once innovative system.

Maybe Shanny can stay, but Kubiak has got to go. Kubes may do well again somewhere else, but the set-in-stone relationship between Shanny & Kubes is clearly in a creative rut during games.

2. Miami knew that if they shut down the run Plummer couldnt beat them with the pass and that trusim was compounded by Plummer playing so tenative trying NOT to make mistakes that he had terrible touch all day and Lelie, Alexander, Putz and even Rod had trouble all day as well. Lelie wasnt in sync yesterday either and missed three balls that could have been caught and one for the TD that heshould have grabbed without question.

Plummer is just so erratic in his accuracy and throws so many wobblers that Miami realized if you make him do it all, their odds of winning just went up big time. Plummer also locks only on the primary reciever, and the other guys might as well not even be there.

3. Its clear we'll never beat the really great teams consistently that have both a solid defense and good offense with Plummer at the helm , unless we catch the other team on an off day and Plummer has one of his periodic decent days.

4. Both the D lines and O line played poorly. The d-line's pass penetration and rush was nearly non-exisitant and was the single biggest disappointment of the day (next to Champ getting injured).

The O-line's run blocking was pathetic too, particularly in the red zone, though those back-to-back-to-back runs up the middle inside the 3 yrd line with Tater-tot was stupid play calling.

The d-lineman and even a few of the LBs are not shedding blockers worth a damn. Several times Ronnie Brown ran straight past a defender oblivious to where the RB was while they were focused soley on fighting with a blocker trying to get more peneration on an obvious run play. This went on in the preseason too and not just the Browncos were guilty. Trevor didnt do squat!

5. Miami played a hell of a game with what they have. They were very well coached on both sides of the ball to use their talents and minimize their deficits while really taking advantage of our weakness. First and foremost we were out coached. And they used the heat and humidity perfectly.

6. I pray Champ is back soon, if not, its going to be a very long season. Even if by some miracle Darrent morphed into a Champ clone and can tackle as well as Champ, we will lose a lot of Williams effectiveness as a KO and punt returner if he is getting worn down each game playing left corner all day.
MA needs to come back too as Tater is not a red zone answer. Either that or Ron Dayne should get a lot of carries. In fairness to Tater he hasnt run much with the first team this summer and showed too much hestiation on some of those runs.

On a positive note, it cant get much worse than yesterday and hopefully this will be a huge wake up call for everyone and they can get this thing back on track. It was just highly dissapointing after all the work and expectation of the preseaon to see zero improvement in the very areas we needed to improve on (except for punting).

Get rid of Ernster TODAY! He's sure to clear wavers after his performance yesterday and we can still sign him to the PS if they still want to develop him. We need Willie or some vet corner on the roster now.

[fontaine]

This gets back to my whole argument about the Philosophy and design of the team. I think its flawed.
. . .

Having 5 of our 20 picks from the '03 and '04 drafts on this team suggests that we have been drafting poorly period. Make any excuse you want, but this team should have at least 10 players on this roster and several of those as starters or key backups.

Blood, I understand what you're saying and ofcourse we do need to continue drafting better but I view it slightly differently.

Yes our smallish OL failed to open up cutback lanes and was miserable at doing so in the red zone.

But our zone blocking scheme is going to fail three/four times every season because of a great 3-4 defense executed properly where the LBs file the cutback lane(s). That's always happened. We'll still be an effective rushing team overall this year.

You asked how can we maximise or get more out of our OL and I say that Shanahan and Kubiak are getting paid to do exactly that.

I saw ZERO screens, stretch plays, pitches/tosses where we could take advantage of Bell's speed. It was the SAME running plays to the interior where Traylor and that front 7 knew they just had to contain the cutback lanes.

I said this over 5 months ago that the this offense is too predicatble, especially on running plays. Yes the cutback/zone blocking should be our bread and butter plays but when they DON'T work, we HAVE to start passing the ball on quick dumpoffs to the flat to the RB. We HAVE to start running screens with our mobile OL and using pitch/toss plays to the outside. Last year we were very successfull in all of these play and I thanked God when there was more of an emphasis put on these plays in the offseason but none of them were used against Miami who were continiously shutting down our interior running game. I saw one run to the perimeter

It was especially heinous when we were at the Miami 3 early on and had FIVE chances to score. Three of them were the same play running up in the interior. WTF?

Our offense failed to adjust in the running game and Plummer/Lelie had a nightmare of a first half.

[bloodsunday]

Give me a break BloodSunday. This wasn't the only opinion you have thrown against the barn. There wasn't a single expert that expected Denver to lay such an egg, but your the great prophet? Give me a break. It's amusing because I don't recall you predicting a Denver loss. If you did, go ahead and post it.
No Mock I didn't predict Denver would lose to Miami. I sensed they would struggle not lose. But once again you are taking a larger point and cramming into a single argument. Do you work for Dove Valley Spin Control? Seriously, the make up of this team is flawed. It is good enough to win games and crack the playoffs. But its now where near good enough to be top-level teams consistently. I'm not talking about individual wins and loses, individual players or coaches, individual draft choices, or indivdiual free agents. I am talking about the entire body of work over several seasons, or even one for that matter. If I am making a prediction, it would be that this team will not win the AFC West this season (again) and it will not win a playoff game (again). They'll win a good game here or there and they'll mix in some stinkers, but in the end its the whole picture I am looking at.

The team looked unprepared, flat, out of shape, and poorly coached with a stubborn game plan that wasn't working. ESPN is saying they were stunned, and I'm simply pissed. The inactives were rediculous. Dayne and Roc should of been active. If Roc is inactive, why was he starting against Indy last playoff game? Why only 4 corners? Why do we have this Ernster guy active? Who is the new Duke?
Because our personnel/roster decisions suck! The make up of this team is flawed. We have a useless tightend that we are trying to protect. We have 3 kickers because we gave Elam a boat-load of money and won't even let him kick off; the guy makes 2+ million a year and kicked on extra point and one field goal on Sunday. You are making my points for me.

WTF happened to Watts, he doesn't even show up on the stat sheet. Denver was 1-12 on third downs. Was that the defense's fault?
Watts, a number 2 draft pick, is now down to #4 on the roster. He won't see much playing time if he doesn't earn it back.

[bloodsunday]

You made some wonderful points and I agree with almost all of it. Here are some of my follow-up thoughts.


1. Abismal game-time coaching (once again) this team was totally unprepared for what Miami did on both offense and defense. God, do I wish we had grabbed the new offensive coordinator at Miami while he was coming from Minnesota (Frerotte would have come along as a decent backup too without question). He could have brought some fresh creative real-time playcalling into the stale boneyard of a once innovative system.

Yeah the system is stale. That's about the best way to put it. However, even the most well-thought out game plans have to be executed by the players. I'm not sure the way the offense played it would have mattered on this particular day.

2. Miami knew that if they shut down the run Plummer couldnt beat them with the pass and that trusim was compounded by Plummer playing so tenative trying NOT to make mistakes that he had terrible touch all day and Lelie, Alexander, Putz and even Rod had trouble all day as well. Lelie wasnt in sync yesterday either and missed three balls that could have been caught and one for the TD that heshould have grabbed without question.
Every team knows this. Shut down our run and we are done. Our offensive talent -- Plummer included -- is not good enough to impose its will on other teams. We have zero, none, nada playmakers left on offense. Name one guy and opposing coordinator stays up at night worrying about. Instead they just have to "make Plummer pass" and "clog the running lanes". We have become too simple to stop on O for a team that has even a respectable defense.

The O-line's run blocking was pathetic too, particularly in the red zone, though those back-to-back-to-back runs up the middle inside the 3 yrd line with Tater-tot was stupid play calling.
This has been an issue for sometime. The zone blocking does not work in the redzone and this OL does not have the capability to push people around. We'll have to compensate some other way -- play calling, personnel substitutions?

5. Miami played a hell of a game with what they have. They were very well coached on both sides of the ball to use their talents and minimize their deficits while really taking advantage of our weakness. First and foremost we were out coached. And they used the heat and humidity perfectly.
Two things here. A) Miami is a tough place to play for anyone in the month of September. That was overlooked by all those that thought it was a given we would win. B) Miami is more talented than people give them credit for. We look at their record last season and forget they were basically the same team (that went to the playoffs the year before) last year but went belly-up with the Ricky fiasco. Their skill position players are pretty good on O and Gus is an upgrade at QB. They play defense the way I suggested we should -- by dominating at the point of attack instead of drafting 9 corners in 2 years.

[bloodsunday]

Yes our smallish OL failed to open up cutback lanes and was miserable at doing so in the red zone.

But our zone blocking scheme is going to fail three/four times every season because of a great 3-4 defense executed properly where the LBs file the cutback lane(s). That's always happened. We'll still be an effective rushing team overall this year.
I can appreciate the scheme is a problem with certain match ups. I think its more than the type of defense though. Any defense, 3-4 or 4-3, that has a dominating front 7 is a problem for us because our front 7 (including TE and FB) is not dominating. They are incapable of imposing their will on the other team. Even a marginal team like the Bengals last season can take away our strength if they play it right.

You asked how can we maximise or get more out of our OL and I say that Shanahan and Kubiak are getting paid to do exactly that.

I saw ZERO screens, stretch plays, pitches/tosses where we could take advantage of Bell's speed. It was the SAME running plays to the interior where Traylor and that front 7 knew they just had to contain the cutback lanes.
I agree with this. However, at some point you have to out execute the opponent. At some point game planning washes out and players have to make plays. We just don't have enough players that can make the play when the defense has it covered.


I said this over 5 months ago that the this offense is too predicatble, especially on running plays. Yes the cutback/zone blocking should be our bread and butter plays but when they DON'T work, we HAVE to start passing the ball on quick dumpoffs to the flat to the RB. We HAVE to start running screens with our mobile OL and using pitch/toss plays to the outside. Last year we were very successfull in all of these play and I thanked God when there was more of an emphasis put on these plays in the offseason but none of them were used against Miami who were continiously shutting down our interior running game. I saw one run to the perimeter

It was especially heinous when we were at the Miami 3 early on and had FIVE chances to score. Three of them were the same play running up in the interior. WTF?

Our offense failed to adjust in the running game and Plummer/Lelie had a nightmare of a first half.
One thing I keep coming back to is Mediator's assertion that Plummer is not doing proper audibles at the line of scrimmage to change us into better plays. This seems pretty fundamental to me and something that either must be corrected or he must go. I just don't understand why we would give Plummer all that money if he can't do something this simple. Didn't we run Brister out of town because he was incapable of these things?

[Rock Chalk]

Calling audibles at the line is not something thats "that simple". Good defenses (note, this does not include ours) disguise a lot better than most of us realize and calling audibles at the line to change the play because you see what is going to happen is not as easy as you think.

Manrino is really good at it, Elway was good at it, any QB facing our blatantly simple defense is good at it, but that doesnt mean that its easy.

[Ray Finkle]

I have been ridiculed on this board over the past few weeks for making some of the following comments*:

1) We need a new philosophy because our zone blocking offensive line is no longer effective. I suggested that an approach like Philly's where we build from the line out was a more effective approach.

2) I suggested that squandering draft picks was going to catch up with us.

3) I suggested that this team is not a contender and should not be considered a championship-caliber team.

So, what is the opinion of everyone now? I know its only one game, but this one game exposed just about every wart we have seen on this team over the past 7 seasons.

* I want to be clear that one thing I NEVER suggested (and will not now) is that Shanahan be fired. Shanahan is a wonderful coach. What I do hope is that Shanny sees the light and is willing to change. I think Shanahan and Billichick share a lot of qualities that make them both great coaches, but Billichick has shown a willingness to adapt and change that seems to be eluding Shanny.

Mostly you are ridiculed for your double or triple posts....damn annoying...

[bloodsunday]

Calling audibles at the line is not something thats "that simple". Good defenses (note, this does not include ours) disguise a lot better than most of us realize and calling audibles at the line to change the play because you see what is going to happen is not as easy as you think.

Manrino is really good at it, Elway was good at it, any QB facing our blatantly simple defense is good at it, but that doesnt mean that its easy.
Fair point. Nonetheless, its fundamental to an offense operating properly. If Jake can't get us into a good play, then he should be gone IMO.

[Rock Chalk]

How about Mike calling a good play?

[bloodsunday]

How about Mike calling a good play?
There is something to that no doubt. But he just can't know for certain what the defense is gonna do before they line up. That's why audibles were invented. We need both.

[Rock Chalk]

There is something to that no doubt. But he just can't know for certain what the defense is gonna do before they line up. That's why audibles were invented. We need both.
Well, calling the same stupid ****ing run play up the middle on the 1 yard line is kinda, I dont know, IGNORANT.

[bloodsunday]

Well, calling the same stupid ****ing run play up the middle on the 1 yard line is kinda, I dont know, IGNORANT.
You only see the result. Jake has (or at least used to have) options to take a run up the middle and change it IF he read the defense properly.

[Mediator12]

Well, calling the same stupid ****ing run play up the middle on the 1 yard line is kinda, I dont know, IGNORANT.

And so is a QB that can not adjust at the Line of scrimmage to the defensive set either alec. Any Decent QB can count the number of players blocking a gap versus the Numbers of defenders lined up over it or the fact that BOTH Safeties were in the box on several of those running plays up the Middle!

The reason DEN will fail in games is not the Playcalling per se, even though it WAS atrocious Sunday, but the lack of a QB that can audible out of bad plays and get some positive yardage on third and One.

[DarkHorse30]

Frankly, I thought Den's odds of winning were about 1-3, but the fact that Gus shredded us in the first half makes me ... uneasy. Could be a case of .... Kordell, and Gus really wants a go around again, and the sushi really didn't suck on offense that badly until Ricky split, even with whatwasthat for a coach and fiddler at qb.

It didn't look to me like Frerotte did anything in the first half.....except inform Miami's defense of Denver's likely gameplan. That said, the thing Denver needs to do is retool their offense to fit Plummer's strengths. He isn't a pocket passer because he misses (granted not by much....but enough to make catching a late, badly thrown pass difficult) nearly everything he throws at by enough to make Shanahan change his plan.

The biggest advantage of the new passing rules is the quick slant. Plummer doesn't have to think, or read (a real problem with this guy) the defense to take 3 steps and gun it to Rod or a TE. I was waiting for this the whole first half against Miami......how else can you get the LBs (passrushers) to back up and play the pass? The deep ball is there if Lelie can catch it, but it has to be mixed up with enough short passes to get the safeties to play the short ball.....and not gang up on Lelie or Adams.

Another thing Denver has to take advantage of is Johnson's ability to catch. If Tatum can't handle the screen, dump it to Kyle.

Denver seemed to have the idea in the first game that they can establish the run, and then spread the field. That flies in the face of Plummer's inability to make the defense do anything but load 8 in the box for the first 15 minutes. Shanahan needs to spread things out and use his TEs to block on a rollout....instead of missing everything thrown at them. MOVE Plummer around....let him scramble a bit to catch a rhythm of the game.

Later, when the offense has spread things out a bit, the running game will be more formidable, and the chainmoving can continue.

The biggest problem with this idea is that Shanahan has difficulty accepting his "system" is dated and doesn't cause defenders to be confused. Shanahan is trying to be so sneaky, he sets up one group of plays that backs around on itself....the defense ends up being less puzzled than the offense. "who to block" "what's the pattern" etc, etc. Simplify it and let your players dictate the system. LEARN how to coach again, mini-mind.

[Rock Chalk]

And so is a QB that can not adjust at the Line of scrimmage to the defensive set either alec. Any Decent QB can count the number of players blocking a gap versus the Numbers of defenders lined up over it or the fact that BOTH Safeties were in the box on several of those running plays up the Middle!

The reason DEN will fail in games is not the Playcalling per se, even though it WAS atrocious Sunday, but the lack of a QB that can audible out of bad plays and get some positive yardage on third and One.
Dont you think the coach should have given him a different ****ing play at least once?

Or is it on Jake to call the plays?

Last I checked, the coaches call the plays, the players execute them.

[Bronco9798]

Dont you think the coach should have given him a different ****ing play at least once?

Or is it on Jake to call the plays?

Last I checked, the coaches call the plays, the players execute them.

Jake don't come up with the game plan. I agree.

[Bronco9798]

It didn't look to me like Frerotte did anything in the first half.....except inform Miami's defense of Denver's likely gameplan. That said, the thing Denver needs to do is retool their offense to fit Plummer's strengths. He isn't a pocket passer because he misses (granted not by much....but enough to make catching a late, badly thrown pass difficult) nearly everything he throws at by enough to make Shanahan change his plan.

The biggest advantage of the new passing rules is the quick slant. Plummer doesn't have to think, or read (a real problem with this guy) the defense to take 3 steps and gun it to Rod or a TE. I was waiting for this the whole first half against Miami......how else can you get the LBs (passrushers) to back up and play the pass? The deep ball is there if Lelie can catch it, but it has to be mixed up with enough short passes to get the safeties to play the short ball.....and not gang up on Lelie or Adams.

Another thing Denver has to take advantage of is Johnson's ability to catch. If Tatum can't handle the screen, dump it to Kyle.

Denver seemed to have the idea in the first game that they can establish the run, and then spread the field. That flies in the face of Plummer's inability to make the defense do anything but load 8 in the box for the first 15 minutes. Shanahan needs to spread things out and use his TEs to block on a rollout....instead of missing everything thrown at them. MOVE Plummer around....let him scramble a bit to catch a rhythm of the game.

Later, when the offense has spread things out a bit, the running game will be more formidable, and the chainmoving can continue.

The biggest problem with this idea is that Shanahan has difficulty accepting his "system" is dated and doesn't cause defenders to be confused. Shanahan is trying to be so sneaky, he sets up one group of plays that backs around on itself....the defense ends up being less puzzled than the offense. "who to block" "what's the pattern" etc, etc. Simplify it and let your players dictate the system. LEARN how to coach again, mini-mind.

We made Gus an All-Pro for one day. Enough said. He picked on Lame Lenny early and often.

[Kaylore]

I'll tell you where I'm at in eight weeks.

[DBroncos4life]

Dont you think the coach should have given him a different ****ing play at least once?

Or is it on Jake to call the plays?

Last I checked, the coaches call the plays, the players execute them.


So lets say Lelie catches some of those passes, the game plan starts to look much better don't you think?

[Rock Chalk]

So lets say Lelie catches some of those passes, the game plan starts to look much better don't you think?
I dont know. Since I didnt watch the game I dont know if the passes were catchable and to be honest, I dont even really remembr he context,

[Bronco9798]

I'll tell you where I'm at in eight weeks.

4-4 and looking for a way to back into the playoffs again.

[Bronco9798]

So lets say Lelie catches some of those passes, the game plan starts to look much better don't you think?

Like running the ball inside the 5 3 or 4 times and not letting Jake create. That was real smart.

[DBroncos4life]

I dont know. Since I didnt watch the game I dont know if the passes were catchable and to be honest, I dont even really remembr he context,



They should have been caught. Plummer didn't play great, Lelie had his worst game as a pro, the Oline didn't do **** for the RB's or Jake, the TE's didn't help any, and our O couldn't keep drives going to help rest the D. All in all it was a complete melt down and it shouldn't just fall on one play or the coaching staff.

[DBroncos4life]

Like running the ball inside the 5 3 or 4 times and not letting Jake create. That was real smart.



Hey the Oline has a job to do as well. If they can't open a hole from the one yard line then what are we going to do? Lelie was dropping passes in the endzone like it was the cool thing to do as well. Every part of the O sucked.

[Bronco9798]

Hey the Oline has a job to do as well. If they can't open a hole from the one yard line then what are we going to do? Lelie was dropping passes in the endzone like it was the cool thing to do as well. Every part of the O sucked.


When they couldn't open it 3 times in a row, why the hell would you go back to it a 4th time? You have to create confusion sometimes. You really do. Bring a friggin TE in motion then send him back against the grain. Use your TE like we used to. The play-calling is simple and stale. You have to create things and quit being so simple sometimes. Those were Pop Warner plays there.

[bloodsunday]

Dont you think the coach should have given him a different ****ing play at least once?

Or is it on Jake to call the plays?

Last I checked, the coaches call the plays, the players execute them.
But he has to make changes. The game plan cannot account for every alignment the defense makes on every play. If the running play is to the right and Jake sees them load up to the right, he simply has to audible the play to the left. That's an oversimplification, but that's the idea. Jesus, even in highschool we were doing that. The QB would come to the line and had the option to flip-flop the play.

[bloodsunday]

Hey the Oline has a job to do as well. If they can't open a hole from the one yard line then what are we going to do? Lelie was dropping passes in the endzone like it was the cool thing to do as well. Every part of the O sucked.
Yes. The OL does have a job to do.

[bloodsunday]

When they couldn't open it 3 times in a row, why the hell would you go back to it a 4th time? You have to create confusion sometimes. You really do. Bring a friggin TE in motion then send him back against the grain. Use your TE like we used to. The play-calling is simple and stale. You have to create things and quit being so simple sometimes. Those were Pop Warner plays there.
The players couldn't handle the game plan we gave them. What makes you think they would have executed a more complicated one? Especially Jake and Ashley?

[Rock Chalk]

But he has to make changes. The game plan cannot account for every alignment the defense makes on every play. If the running play is to the right and Jake sees them load up to the right, he simply has to audible the play to the left. That's an oversimplification, but that's the idea. Jesus, even in highschool we were doing that. The QB would come to the line and had the option to flip-flop the play.
Yeah, but now you are deflecting all the blame for running four straight ****ing plays to the right.

Jake should know yes, but the coaches should have seen what the **** was going on and adjusted and they didnt.

[GreatBronco16]

I voted that it is only one game, but then I look at our schedule and I have to wonder just how good Denver can do this year after what they showed against Miami. I do hope that it was just that one or two games that Denver allways has like this every season and Denver goes on a 5 or 6 game winning streak from this, but I am worried.

If this year does turn out bad and every else was right exept us, then I do want to start rebuilding. Starting with the OLine. Foster is a keeper, after him, IMO Denver needs to get some big linemen that can block straight up and hold a pocket. I'm also not against unloading a good bit of players that offer pretty much nothing to this team to help get some more money. Someone other than Shanny needs to handle this years draft.

[Mediator12]

Attitude is pissed off beyond all recognition. That's it.

[bloodsunday]

Yeah, but now you are deflecting all the blame for running four straight ****ing plays to the right.

Jake should know yes, but the coaches should have seen what the **** was going on and adjusted and they didnt.
In the end yes its a combination of both. The coaches must adjust and Jake must make the right audibles. Neither happened on Sunday. However, Jake has not done a good job of it during his tenure in Denver (apparently). So I think maybe our context is a bit different. Mediator is referring to Jake on the whole and you were referring more this specific game. Our coaching staff tends to have about as good a game plan as anyone in the NFL. In fact, many still consider Shanny one of the best game day coaches in the NFL. Just not that day.

[GreatBronco16]

I thought Jake wasn't alloud to make audiables. I only remember him calling one last year, and that resulted in an INT. I would like to see how the offense played if Jake was alloud to make his own calls at the line when needed. I see other QBs go to the line and look all over the defense, then they start pointing a little bit. Plummer just walks up behind center then starts his snap count without even glancing over the defense to see what they are playing.

[Mediator12]

Yeah, but now you are deflecting all the blame for running four straight ****ing plays to the right.

Jake should know yes, but the coaches should have seen what the **** was going on and adjusted and they didnt.

I hate to tell you this Alec, they never ran the ball four straight times the whole game. In fact, they never ran three in a row. They Only ran twice in a row two times.

Here's the Point though, Elite QB's can and will change the play at the LOS to get into a better play. It is a novel concept that Jake Plummer has not Earned or deserves. Even if it is to change the Direction of a running play away from an encroaching safety or LB overload. It is that pure and Simple, and our QB can not even do it.

That is HOW POOR his presnap reads are. And they severely limit the adaptability of the offense, let alone the playcalling.

[Bronco9798]

They ran 3 of 4 inside the five. One was a no play on a penalty and then the incompletion to Alexander.

[Mediator12]

They ran 3 of 4 inside the five. One was a no play on a penalty and then the incompletion to Alexander.

They Ran three of FIVE with the Penalty. Run, Run, Pass, Pass, Run.

[Bronco9798]

They Ran three of FIVE with the Penalty. Run, Run, Pass, Pass, Run.

The penalty wiped out the one play. It doesn't count as a play.

6:08) J.Plummer pass incomplete to A.Lelie.
PENALTY on MIA-J.Taylor, Defensive Offside, 2 yards, enforced at MIA 3 - No Play.

[yavoon]

The penalty wiped out the one play. It doesn't count as a play.

6:08) J.Plummer pass incomplete to A.Lelie.
PENALTY on MIA-J.Taylor, Defensive Offside, 2 yards, enforced at MIA 3 - No Play.

not logical. if it had scored it would have counted. it was in effect a free play. the only reason it didnt count is because denver is inept inside the 20.

[Bronco9798]

not logical. if it had scored it would have counted. it was in effect a free play. the only reason it didnt count is because denver is inept inside the 20.


Spin it how you want.

[yavoon]

Spin it how you want.

there is no spin, denver had 5 chances to score. if any of those 5 had gone in it would have counted. is there any other way to put it? they certainly didnt have four chances, thats just incorrect.

[Bronco9798]

It was still poor play calling. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that Bell and the Offense line couldn't do anything. You have to roll out Jake down there and get outside of the pocket and make something happen. It was still 3 run plays inside the five.

[sirhcyennek81]

i am fairly optimistic. Patriots lost 38-0 to buffalo, started 0-2, won 14 straight, and won the superbowl. Stranger things have happened. rather have this type of loss early, rather then late, and screw up a post season push.

[DB-Freak]

if this I told u so time I did have a couple threads where I warned of what the secondary would look like w/ champ gone.

another funny observation, marty booker(a pretty slow posession receiver) outran lynch and walls, while that in itself isnt that amazing, it isnt very comforting to think half our starting secondary can't chase down a posession receiver when he's only given what? a 1 yard lead? what happens when branch, givens, holt, harrison, start running crossing routes on us? how are we going to defend them?
Booker is not slow woman. He's not a burner, but he's pretty fast.

[bloodsunday]

I hate to tell you this Alec, they never ran the ball four straight times the whole game. In fact, they never ran three in a row. They Only ran twice in a row two times.

Here's the Point though, Elite QB's can and will change the play at the LOS to get into a better play. It is a novel concept that Jake Plummer has not Earned or deserves. Even if it is to change the Direction of a running play away from an encroaching safety or LB overload. It is that pure and Simple, and our QB can not even do it.

That is HOW POOR his presnap reads are. And they severely limit the adaptability of the offense, let alone the playcalling.
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Mediator12 again.

Not sure what is tough about this.

[bloodsunday]

Spin it how you want.
That's not spin, he's right. We had the discretion of letting the play count.

[Bronco9798]

That's not spin, he's right. We had the discretion of letting the play count.


But we didn't. I made my point. Horrible play calling down there.

[bloodsunday]

But we didn't. I made my point. Horrible play calling down there.
Fair enough. You made your point and I think we are splitting hairs at this point. The playcalling and the defensive reads BOTH need to improve for us to achieve our goals.

[Bronco9798]

Fair enough. You made your point and I think we are splitting hairs at this point. The playcalling and the defensive reads BOTH need to improve for us to achieve our goals.

:thumbs: :wave:

[crazyhorse]

I have been ridiculed on this board over the past few weeks for making some of the following comments*:

1) We need a new philosophy because our zone blocking offensive line is no longer effective. I suggested that an approach like Philly's where we build from the line out was a more effective approach.

2) I suggested that squandering draft picks was going to catch up with us.

3) I suggested that this team is not a contender and should not be considered a championship-caliber team.

So, what is the opinion of everyone now? I know its only one game, but this one game exposed just about every wart we have seen on this team over the past 7 seasons.

* I want to be clear that one thing I NEVER suggested (and will not now) is that Shanahan be fired. Shanahan is a wonderful coach. What I do hope is that Shanny sees the light and is willing to change. I think Shanahan and Billichick share a lot of qualities that make them both great coaches, but Billichick has shown a willingness to adapt and change that seems to be eluding Shanny.

I suggested the exact same things. They wouldn't listen to me either.

[Bronco9798]

I suggested the exact same things. They wouldn't listen to me either.

Why would anyone listen to you? :nono: Nnyah!

J/K!!

[bloodsunday]

I suggested the exact same things. They wouldn't listen to me either.
I've been treated like a KC fan a few times for saying it. :stupid:

I guess you just have to drink the orange cool-aid to be a real fan. Admitting that your team isn't perfect and desiring for them to be better is a bad thing.