Champ is really not that good

[elsid13]

For my uber football friends on the mane

I came across this article insider section of ESPN, so I can not post it, without legally putting TJ in trouble. (Here the link for those that have access http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=joyner_kc&id=2155934)

But here is the summary. Jackass reporter, KC Joyner, turned want a be football statistician attempts to identify the best cornerbacks in the NFL using previous underutilized stats. His choice of stats is completion percentage. So looking at this stats he states the best corner in the league are: (competition % )

1.. Dre' Bly -- 36.5 percent
2. Mike McKenzie -- 40.8 percent
3. Eric Warfield -- 44.0 percent
4. Shawn Springs -- 44.6 percent
5. Deltha O'Neal -- 44.8 percent

This is direct quote about Champ:

“Champ Bailey, whom I have previously referred to as the most overrated player in football, ranked 67th in overall completion percentage.”

Once again an idiot reporter gets caught in the numbers and doesn’t watch what happen in the real world. Stats are good for many things but sometimes you need to walk the street to understand what going on.

[Rock Chalk]

There are three types of lies. Lies, damned lies, and statistics.

Lidderer will be in here to tell us why these statistics are accurate though Im sure.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

All those stats mean is that there is a REALLY BAD corner opposite those guys.

[ozomulsion]

All those stats mean is that there is a REALLY BAD corner opposite those guys.

Well, Herndon isn't with us anymore. Middlebust isn't our nickel either. Nuff said?

[elsid13]

All those stats mean is that there is a REALLY BAD corner opposite those guys.


I think if you look at the teams that they play for you would see a lot of zone coverage or safety help over the top for those CBs listed. I leave it to Med or others to break it down better. But if anyone thinks Delta is top 5 corners, you needs to have head examed. When run statical modeling one of the first test you do is look at the result and ask yourself does this make sense and check the r-squared ratio. IT shows this guy has no real staticial training.

[clint7]

::)

I'll go with the acutal "human" players who recently ranked him the best.

http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/story/8797277

[ludo21]

::)

I'll go with the acutal "human" players who recently ranked him the best.

http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/story/8797277


Agreed :super: :thumbs:

[Rock Chalk]

All this reminds me of the time Johnny Cochran used the winning percentages of the black coaches in the history of the NFL against the winning percentages of the white coaches in the history of the NFL and came to the conclusion black people are better coaches than white people.

Comparing less than 10 guys percentages with hundreds of other guys. Thats moronic at best.

[Odysseus]

http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/story/8787682

Denver Broncos
Significant additions: DT Gerard Warren, DE Ebenezer Ekuban, DT Michael Myers, DE Courtney Brown, TE Stephen Alexander, LB Ian Gold.

Significant subtractions: DE Reggie Hayward, S Kenoy Kennedy, LB Donnie Spragan.

Biggest offseason move: Getting the four defensive lineman from the Cleveland Browns. Those four didn't do much for a bad Cleveland defense, but word is some of them have showed well this summer. One question, though -- where's the pass rush coming from?

Will go to the playoffs if ... the defense can show improvement behind all the new faces.

Won't go to the playoffs if ... the defense is getting gashed, forcing too much pressure on Jake Plummer.

Rookie to watch: The Broncos drafted three corners with their first three picks, and Dominique Foxworth, the last of the three to be picked, has played the best in the preseason. He could be the team's nickel back.

Overview: Coach Mike Shanahan has not won a playoff game since John Elway retired. Is this the year? The Broncos will again run the ball well with Mike Anderson and Tatum Bell, and Plummer will make his share of plays in the passing game. But the defense has a lot of holes to plug. The Broncos will push for wild-card spot this year and maybe the division title.


---A quick cut and paste. They have a pretty good take.

[Ballhawk]

All these artricles are pure fluff and nowhere comparable to the insights given by posters here on the Mane.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Well, Mike McKenzie and Champ Bailey DO have something in common.

They both got beat by Eddie Kennison for a TD. ;D

[elsid13]

Well, Mike McKenzie and Champ Bailey DO have something in common.

They both got beat by Eddie Kennison for a TD. ;D


Just like Delta has something in common with the KC D-
Both aren't that smart and really don't have any heart ;D

[TheChamp247]

Its only because the ball gets thrown at champ what like 3 times a game, and thats usally when the reciever is open, they should do it on amount of playes also

[Rock Chalk]

Deltha also got torched for a 99 yard TD either last year or the year before.

[Tredici]

Man, I wish KC Joyner was actually making personel decisions for an NFL Team based on his "statistical" data. Putting up a bunch of garbage is easy, I mean Boob does it in here every day. Putting your money where your garbage is would be a real different matter, methinks.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Just like Delta has something in common with the KC D-
Both aren't that smart and really don't have any heart ;D

You mean the OLD KC D.

The new one is loaded with talent.

[elsid13]

You mean the OLD KC D.

The new one is loaded with talent.


Did I say anything about talent???, Delta has talent too, 5 int against Trint that ring a bell??? I stand by statement until proven wrong.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Did I say anything about talent???, Delta has talent too, 5 int against Trint that ring a bell??? I stand by statement until proven wrong.

Talent meaning GOOD PLAYERS.

[Ballhawk]

Talent meaning GOOD PLAYERS.

After the Jets hang half a hundred on you, where do they go from there?

[elsid13]

I’m sorry guys, I accidentally helped Boob hijack this thread. Back to the nit wit that writes for ESPN showing he know nothing.

[ro_50]

I would like to see his quarterback ratings, he prob has Plummer higher than Manning based on his statistics.

Dre Bly the best corner based on his stats, what is the guy smoking? Prob the same stuff that Randy Moss regularly smokes. What an idiot.

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

You mean the OLD KC D.

The new one is loaded with talent.

rotflmao

[Florida_Bronco]

Eric Warfield at number 3?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! WHAT A JOKE!!

(and this coming from a Nebraska fan)

[Bob's your Information Minister]

After the Jets hang half a hundred on you, where do they go from there?

Only 50 total yards? That's a bit generous of you, I think the Jets will get AT LEAST 200 yards of offense.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

In reality, Bailey didn't play up to his reputation last year or did he?
I don't see CBs as being the difference makers they were in years past.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

rotflmao

You laugh now son.

But there is a new wrecking crew in town. Kendrell Bell provides intensity and speed off the edge. Derrick Johnson is the same on the other side.

We've vastly improved the linebacker corps. And MLB Kawika Mitchell has made tremendous strides this offseason.

We also brought in half of the NFL's No. 2 secondary to shore up the pass defense.

You won't be laughing when they take the keys to Invesco in week 3.

[16-JakE-16]

We also brought in half of the NFL's No. 2 secondary to shore up the pass defense.



:pity:

[orange 4 life]

All these artricles are pure fluff and nowhere comparable to the insights given by posters here on the Mane.

now this is a true statement.

you want ACCURATE and or COMPELLING arguments and analysis?

just read the threads here.
there's literlly three times the knowledge and intelligence.

[footstepsfrom#27]

:puff: :puff: :puff: Deltha Oneal?

[Bob's your Information Minister]

:pity:

Bro, why do you pity half of the NFL's no.2 secondary? We have four ballhawks in our secondary now. Do I need to post stats?

[Atlas]

For my uber football friends on the mane

I came across this article insider section of ESPN, so I can not post it, without legally putting TJ in trouble. (Here the link for those that have access http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=joyner_kc&id=2155934)

But here is the summary. Jackass reporter, KC Joyner, turned want a be football statistician attempts to identify the best cornerbacks in the NFL using previous underutilized stats. His choice of stats is completion percentage. So looking at this stats he states the best corner in the league are: (competition % )

1.. Dre' Bly -- 36.5 percent
2. Mike McKenzie -- 40.8 percent
3. Eric Warfield -- 44.0 percent
4. Shawn Springs -- 44.6 percent
5. Deltha O'Neal -- 44.8 percent

This is direct quote about Champ:

“Champ Bailey, whom I have previously referred to as the most overrated player in football, ranked 67th in overall completion percentage.”

Once again an idiot reporter gets caught in the numbers and doesn’t watch what happen in the real world. Stats are good for many things but sometimes you need to walk the street to understand what going on.
I think the Broncos put Champ into a lot of bad situations last year. I think they will move him around this year and every once an awhile he'll get some safety help. I expect a much better year from Bailey this year. Not to say that he had a bad year last year but he had to do it all on his own this year he'll get more help,

[Atlas]

Bro, why do you pity half of the NFL's no.2 secondary? We have four ballhawks in our secondary now. Do I need to post stats?

LOL!! I think half of the #2 secondary was playing with better LBers and better Dlineman...... dork

[Florida_Bronco]

Bro, why do you pity half of the NFL's no.2 secondary? We have four ballhawks in our secondary now. Do I need to post stats?

Who are these 4 ballhawks?

[dumpy]

Who are these 4 ballhawks?


I think he meant Jayhawks

[watermock]

I'm reminded of when Homer pledged 10K to PBS to get rid of the telethon and Flanders shipped Homer to some South Pacific island with an active volcane. Homer wound up licking purple frogs and going "Oh God Oh God Oh God"...

Bob, we know your delusional, it's an old offense with a defense that hasn't proven squat. Your coach is ancient, you have recycled your defensive coordinator after supposedly hijacking Robinson, and there is nothing to really suggest anything will change regarding your draft position next year. Your assertions bring great amusement to the board. Surtain and Knight. Jesus Christ.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Who are these 4 ballhawks?

Knight, Wesley, Warfield, Surtain

They're all up there in generating turnovers over the last few seasons.

Especially the safeties.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

LOL!! I think half of the #2 secondary was playing with better LBers and better Dlineman...... dork

Bro, I have been over this before. We had more sacks than Miami. And we brought in some studs to kick your ass. ;D

[Florida_Bronco]

Knight, Wesley, Warfield, Surtain

They're all up there in generating turnovers over the last few seasons.

Especially the safeties.

OK I can agree with that, except with Warfield. I've been watching him through the pros and ever since he was at NU...I don't think he's a ballhawk.

[Lidderer]

There are three types of lies. Lies, damned lies, and statistics.

Lidderer will be in here to tell us why these statistics are accurate though Im sure.

I like KC Joyner, or at least admire his project, but his system has serious flaws and fails to take into account coverage schemes and whatnot. Like, say, WR A catches a 7 yard pass on Champ on 3rd and 9, well from my understanding of Joyner's system this is treated the same as if champ allowed a 7 yard catch on 3rd and 5. Which means a lot of it is bunk.

Still though, it's only his(Joyner's) 3rd year in his own system, so there's gonna be major kinks that need work.

Nonetheless, Dre Bly is an excellent CB.

[Lidderer]

Another thing that's difficult for Joyner to factor in:

First off, the guy takes all his data from taped game footage. As in TV broadcasts. This doesn't give you a good idea of champ's effectiveness when the ball is NOT THROWN to him.

I'm gonna take a hunch here and assume that an NFL QB sees 2 of his wrs tightly covered, he's more than likely to try picking on the lesser cb, hoping that his WR can somehow outmuscle(or whatever) him to the ball. If he sees all-pro bailey draping his wr he is not gonna take the same risk. This likely contributes to a greater number of broken-up passes for lesser cbs, and fewer opportunities for a player like bailey.

The thought, here, is that a qb, in order for him to throw against bailey, will have to feel that his wr is sufficiently open, thus making the throw safe, and contributing to the high success rate of throws against champ.

I may have no idea what I'm talking about.

[Play2win]

When I think of one CB that GIVES up receptions, time and time again, that one CB is Deltha. Thats what he does, he lets WRs get completions. (he might come up with a big play from time to time, but it doesn't make up for all the completions he gives up.)

[Bob's your Information Minister]

OK I can agree with that, except with Warfield. I've been watching him through the pros and ever since he was at NU...I don't think he's a ballhawk.

Bro, how do you define a ballhawk? Warfield has 12 interceptions in the last 3 years.

[rbackfactory80]

any player who is on a defense that is not on the field for the whole game that gets 3000 opportunities to make a interception in one game.

[Florida_Bronco]

Bro, how do you define a ballhawk? Warfield has 12 interceptions in the last 3 years.

I've never felt that he had a real nose for the ball, he is usually one the teams number 1 receiver though and gets thrown at alot, alot of those balls simply fall into his arms.

[elsid13]

Since I always prefer to use overall market type analysis vs. one static to look for best player at any position I think it a lot easier to identify the top corners based upon salaries.
Since GMs and Coaches have equal access to information and no real competitive advantage due to insider information on veteran players it clear to see which player have higher value in the market's eyes and thus are the better players. Rookies are out due to some limitations of market forces. Notice little correlation with Joyner top 5 stat appoarch

Looking at top 10 CB salaries here who the market say at the best CB are:
1 . Winfield, Antoine Vikings 12,500,000
2. Springs, Shawn Redskins 10,910,000
3. McAlister, Chris Ravens $ 10,534,906
4 Sheppard, Lito Eagles $ 9,182,450
5 McCutcheon, Daylon Browns $ 9,104,000
6. Bryant, Fernando Lions $ 9,003,600
7. Woodson, Charles Raiders $ 8,781,000
8 Brown, Sheldon Eagles $ 7,884,300
9 . Webster, Jason Falcons $ 7,539,000
10. Bailey, Champ Broncos $ 7,509,150


source is USA Today salary database

[Rock Chalk]

Since I always prefer to use overall market type analysis vs. one static to look for best player at any position I think it a lot easier to identify the top corners based upon salaries.
Since GMs and Coaches have equal access to information and no real competitive advantage due to insider information on veteran players it clear to see which player have higher value in the market eyes and thus are the better players. Rookies are out due to some limitation OF marker forces. Notice little correlation with Joyner top 5 stat

Looking at top 10 CB salaries here who the market say at the best CB are:
1 . Winfield, Antoine Vikings 12,500,000
2. Springs, Shawn Redskins 10,910,000
3. McAlister, Chris Ravens $ 10,534,906
4 Sheppard, Lito Eagles $ 9,182,450
5 McCutcheon, Daylon Browns $ 9,104,000
6. Bryant, Fernando Lions $ 9,003,600
7. Woodson, Charles Raiders $ 8,781,000
8 Brown, Sheldon Eagles $ 7,884,300
9 . Webster, Jason Falcons $ 7,539,000
10. Bailey, Champ Broncos $ 7,509,150


source is USA Today salary database

Thats a much better list. Dont know about the rankings, but that is a much much better list of quality CBs in the league.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

I've never felt that he had a real nose for the ball, he is usually one the teams number 1 receiver though and gets thrown at alot, alot of those balls simply fall into his arms.

Bro, the last two years he was pretty good. McNugget was the one getting toasted, mostly.

I'm interested to see how he does this year when he won't be asked to cover No. 1 receivers.

[Lidderer]

Thats a much better list. Dont know about the rankings, but that is a much much better list of quality CBs in the league.

Market inefficiency. Judging talent by salary is akin to saying "whatever the GMs think is what I think." Which, if you think about it, isn't a thought.

[Kaylore]

It appears that those stats don't list the number of times the quarterback checks off the receiver that each particular corner is covering.

Market value is one of the worst ways to grade player talent. Daryl Gardner had pretty nice contract.

[DBroncos4life]

Bro, the last two years he was pretty good. McNugget was the one getting toasted, mostly.

I'm interested to see how he does this year when he won't be asked to cover No. 1 receivers.


not for 4 weeks anyways.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

not for 4 weeks anyways.

Bro, you got that right.

[Florida_Bronco]

Bro, the last two years he was pretty good. McNugget was the one getting toasted, mostly.

I'm interested to see how he does this year when he won't be asked to cover No. 1 receivers.

He's alright, I wouldn't mind having him on my team, I just don't think he's a ballhawk, that's all.

[Rock Chalk]

Market inefficiency. Judging talent by salary is akin to saying "whatever the GMs think is what I think." Which, if you think about it, isn't a thought.
Statistics be damned. That list, has far better quality CBs than the list Joyner used. Id take McAllister and CHamp over any two CBs in the league, period.

[16-JakE-16]

Bro, why do you pity half of the NFL's no.2 secondary? We have four ballhawks in our secondary now. Do I need to post stats?
just watch what those "ballhawks" from Miami do with the KC line :loopy: it won't be much, that's for sure

[Garcia Bronco]

Champ's not that good...sweet...defenses should thow at him then.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

just watch what those "ballhawks" from Miami do with the KC line :loopy: it won't be much, that's for sure

HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO SAY IT?

THE KANSAS CITY FRONT SEVEN GENERATED MORE SACKS THAN MIAMI'S.

And we brought in two speedy linebackers and a pass rushing DE. Do you think those additions might help the pass rush JUST A WEE BIT?

STOP BEING COMPLETE MORONS ABOUT PATRICK SURTAIN, BRONCOS FANS! IT WILL BE EASIER FOR YOU TO ACCEPT IT WHEN HE INTERCEPTS PLUMMER.

[Kaylore]

HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO SAY IT?

THE KANSAS CITY FRONT SEVEN GENERATED MORE SACKS THAN MIAMI'S.

And we brought in two speedy linebackers and a pass rushing DE. Do you think those additions might help the pass rush JUST A WEE BIT?

STOP BEING COMPLETE MORONS ABOUT PATRICK SURTAIN, BRONCOS FANS! IT WILL BE EASIER FOR YOU TO ACCEPT IT WHEN HE INTERCEPTS PLUMMER.
Sacks don't = preasure. We had some sacks last season, but we were very poor at closing the pocket and causing hurried throws. There is more to preassure than sacks.

Surtain is past his prime on a patchwork D. I'm not concerned, especially when we go three wide on you with Warfield out.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Sacks don't = preasure. We had some sacks last season, but we were very poor at closing the pocket and causing hurried throws. There is more to preassure than sacks.

Surtain is past his prime on a patchwork D. I'm not concerned, especially when we go three wide on you with Warfield out.

WHAT?

Surtain is not even THIRTY YEARS OLD and suddenly he's PAST HIS PRIME?

The Chiefs created plenty of pressure last year. Surtain is only going to upgrade our D. How can anyone think otherwise?

[Florida_Bronco]

HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO SAY IT?

THE KANSAS CITY FRONT SEVEN GENERATED MORE SACKS THAN MIAMI'S.

And we brought in two speedy linebackers and a pass rushing DE. Do you think those additions might help the pass rush JUST A WEE BIT?

STOP BEING COMPLETE MORONS ABOUT PATRICK SURTAIN, BRONCOS FANS! IT WILL BE EASIER FOR YOU TO ACCEPT IT WHEN HE INTERCEPTS PLUMMER.

Did he strike a nerve?

[Arkie]

http://www.welovetheiraqiinformationminister.com/images/07-minister.jpg
There is a new wrecking crew in town. Kendrell Bell provides intensity and speed off the edge. Derrick Johnson is the same on the other side.

We've vastly improved the linebacker corps. And MLB Kawika Mitchell has made tremendous strides this offseason.

We also brought in half of the NFL's No. 2 secondary to shore up the pass defense.

You won't be laughing when they take the keys to Invesco in week 3.

[Florida_Bronco]

LOL

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Did he strike a nerve?

:pfbbt:

[SoCalBronco]

LOL Bosko. Rep.

[SHANARAT]

Surtain is not past his prime...And he's every bit as good as Bailey.

[Clockwork Orange]

Surtain is not past his prime...And he's every bit as good as Bailey.

You're half right, he's not past his prime.

But it's funny, in the last year I've read different polls taken of NFL players on who the best CB in the league is and Champ is at or near the top of the list every time and Surtain is no where to be found. The most common responses are Bailey, Law, McAlister & Woodson.

But yeah, what do the guys who actually play the games know? People on message boards are such greater judges of talent. ::)

[Florida_Bronco]

You're half right, he's not past his prime.

But it's funny, in the last year I've read different polls taken of NFL players on who the best CB in the league is and Champ is at or near the top of the list every time and Surtain is no where to be found. The most common responses are Bailey, Law, McAlister & Woodson.

But yeah, what do the guys who actually play the games know? People on message boards are such greater judges of talent. ::)

You take the words right out of my mouth.

[orange 4 life]

WHAT?

Surtain is not even THIRTY YEARS OLD and suddenly he's PAST HIS PRIME?

The Chiefs created plenty of pressure last year. Surtain is only going to upgrade our D. How can anyone think otherwise?

will he upgrade your defense?

yes, he will. ill give you the direct answer youre looking for.

that said, he wont upgrade it enough.
your defense will be better, but still very susceptible.
on the other side, your offense is a year older and will likely DECREASE in production, leaving you with about the same team you had a year ago.
i would expect the record to be BETTER than last year, but not good enough to get into the playoffs.

jake

[DBroncos4life]

KC's D will still finish in the bottom half of the NFL in total D. Book it. I'm thinking around 23.

[orange 4 life]

KC's D will still finish in the bottom half of the NFL in total D. Book it. I'm thinking around 23.

i think that sounds about right too.
better than a year ago, but still not good.

conversely, i expect their offense to fall out of the top five, and possibly even out of the top ten.

[DBroncos4life]

i think that sounds about right too.
better than a year ago, but still not good.

conversely, i expect their offense to fall out of the top five, and possibly even out of the top ten.


As long as Tony has a good year. I have him on all three of my teams.

[OrangeShadow]

You mean the OLD KC D.

The new one is loaded with talent.

more like loaded with unproven(d. johson) or OLD(k. bell) players.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

OrangeShadow, did you know Kendrell Bell was born in 1980?

I guess since you are 11, that makes him seem old.

[OrangeShadow]

OrangeShadow, did you know Kendrell Bell was born in 1980?

I guess since you are 11, that makes him seem old.

Im 19 but bnice try.

Even if hes only 27 his injuries have taken away from him

[wockenbauss]

Once again an idiot reporter gets caught in the numbers and doesn’t watch what happen in the real world. Stats are good for many things but sometimes you need to walk the street to understand what going on.

Where's the patented "footsteps" addition to this thread... where he'll cherry pick some Bailey stats - and then point out how those stats are really "not that much worse" than some other player he discribes as a "career backup"??? LMAO!

[Merlin]

This is a case where face validity is important in statistics. If the result of the data analysis are totally counterintuitive and not supported by experts in the field (i.e. receivers in the NFL), then it is clear that the data chosen is poor and/or it fails to consider important variables that would lead to a more accurate conclusion. Although I have not read the article, my assumption based on his conclusions is that either he has a poor understanding of statistics, or he has such an exaggerated perception of his intelligence that he believes he should disregard contrary evidence (or he is trying to create readership by being controversial).

1.. Dre' Bly -- 36.5 percent
2. Mike McKenzie -- 40.8 percent
3. Eric Warfield -- 44.0 percent
4. Shawn Springs -- 44.6 percent
5. Deltha O'Neal -- 44.8 percent


Alec,
The problem with JC's assessment is that it fails the test content validity. That is, he assumed he could draw an inference from test scores to a large domain of items similar to those in the test. The problem is that with the racial attitudes of the system, only the cream of the crop in black coaching would likely become head coaches, whereas the same was not true for white coaches, which would lead any comparison based on universal populations to being invalid.

All this reminds me of the time Johnny Cochran used the winning percentages of the black coaches in the history of the NFL against the winning percentages of the white coaches in the history of the NFL and came to the conclusion black people are better coaches than white people.

Merlin

[16-JakE-16]

HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO SAY IT?

THE KANSAS CITY FRONT SEVEN GENERATED MORE SACKS THAN MIAMI'S.

And we brought in two speedy linebackers and a pass rushing DE. Do you think those additions might help the pass rush JUST A WEE BIT?

STOP BEING COMPLETE MORONS ABOUT PATRICK SURTAIN, BRONCOS FANS! IT WILL BE EASIER FOR YOU TO ACCEPT IT WHEN HE INTERCEPTS PLUMMER.
LOL How many times have you watched Patrick Surtain play, Bob?











If you answered at least once then you would know he plays nowhere near the level Chiefs fans are hoping for. He is a damn good corner but don't get your hopes up.

[16-JakE-16]

HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO SAY IT?

THE KANSAS CITY FRONT SEVEN GENERATED MORE SACKS THAN MIAMI'S.


that might just be the reason his level of play dropped last year, no? I'm talking about previous years. The chefs D had no one comparable to Thomas, Marion, Chester, Ogunleye, Taylor, Madison, and Bowens in their primes.