The 2005 Miami Dolphins (all you never wanted to know!)

[wockenbauss]

With all the smack running back and forth all over cyberspace between fans of our two teams... there hasn't been much football talk about the game. I thought I'd post a run-down of the Dolphins team this year, and see if I could draw some out.

The Bronco's are favored in this game, and should be. On paper they should win on Sunday.... but games aren't played on paper.

First of all, a little bit of a defense for my fellow Dol-fans:

1.) The 2004 Dolphins debacle was the teams first losing season since 1988... and only the third losing season for this franchise since 1970. With a total of 3 losing seasons in 35 years, we ain't used to being bad. With younger fans, last season may have been the only time they've seen the Dolphins with a losing record. lol Please try to keep that in mind when your calling some fans "morons", and "incredible homers", for thinking the Dolphins will be competitive this season or in this game.

2.) Despite all the hoopla surrounding Ricky Williams and David Boston last season (neither of whom played a down).... despite a rebuilding effort along the offensive line that saw 5 new starters in 2004... despite RB injuries that left a guy signed to be a backup FB as the starting TB for most of the year... despite a QB controversy between equally uninspiring backup level players... and despite a horrific run of injuries that decimated the Dolphins run defense up the middle (our two big starting DT's were lost to injury in the first game of the year, and two starting LB's went down)... the 2004 Dolphins won four games / lost an additional six games by one score or less / and an additional 3 games by 10 points or less. Taking into consideration that NINE Dolphins turnovers were returned for touchdowns in 2004... it's my opinion we were "competitive" even in a debacle of a season. Keep that in mind when you make statements that Dolphin fans should "accept being a bad team", or are just unrealistic regarding the Dolphins chances in 2005.

In any case... enough of that. Lot's of fans for ANY team are "homers", including the Bronco's.... and the Dolphins have a share of their own.

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DEFENSE -

Since the Dolphins are running a new scheme for 2005 under new coach Nick Saban, all any fan is going to be able to give you is a general impression drawn from preseason play. Saban has mentioned several times that we were playing "extremely vanilla" during the preseason, and not showing alot of things that we've practised.... most Dolphin fans will discover some things at the same time Bronco's fans do on Sunday I'm sure. Saban has a reputation as a defensive "mad scientist", and from what I've seen so far in preseason... I believe it. He's calling "vanilla", things that look major league exotic to Dolfans! LOL

We were used to a base 4-3 defense that 95% of the time rushed four... relied on huge interior DT's and small quick LB's to shut down the run... maybe blitzed a LB 3 to 5 times a game... and a corner blitz 3 to 5 times a year! LOL In this preseason alone, I've seen zone blitzs galore... LB blitzs from all four positions... corner blitzes... saftey blitzes... full house blitzes... and Saban calls this "vanilla"??? I expect some time for the defensive players to become proficient in all Saban's scheme's... but even based on the "vanilla" preseason, the Bronco's are going to get alot of different looks on Sunday. We're no longer a "here we are, and this is what we do - now beat us" defense. I like what I'm seeing alot so far.

Starting DL

LE - Kevin Carter - Free Agent pickup (for my money probably our best addition). He's looked solid this preseason, both applying pressure - and particularly playing the run. In obvious passing situations, he's moved inside... and seems to get alot of push up the middle. Nice addition.

NT - Kieth Traylor - Free Agent pickup. He's done a real nice job, since we lost both Tim Bowens(retired) and Larry Chester(waived injured). I'm sure Bronco fans know more about this guy than Dolphin fans do.... but he seems to command double-teams inside - and when not doubled has created havoc in opposing backfields. With his size (340 lbs) and age (35) we'll need to be careful not to overuse him.

DT - Vonnie Holiday - Free agent pickup. Has played fairly well inside. Can't help but wonder if he hasn't been miscast with some other teams as an edge rusher... because he plays the run well, and playing next to Taylor has gotten good pass pressure this preseason as well.

OE - Jason Taylor. Nuff said. He still has amazing speed and leverage technique's as an edge rusher, but Saban is using his talents in many different ways. Lining him up wide and then dropping him into coverage has worked amazingly well this preseason (and Taylor has the speed and athletic ability to cover well)... because opposing LT's have been all primed to jump outside to cut Taylor off, and then been left looking helplessly as Jason drops into coverage and a blitzing LB comes untouched underneath. LOL I can't wait to see what else they've worked on with Jason - because he's been an absolute beast this preseason.

The top backups, some of which you'll see either rotated in - or in special packages are:

OE - David Bowens (he's been edged rushed in obvious passing situations from the LE position). Poor mans Jason Taylor... 9.5 sacks last year.

DT - Jeff Zgonina (smaller DT vet, with good pass rush capabilities - but somewhat of a liability in the run game).

NT - Tim Mcgill (recent waiver wire pickup from the Jets, don't know much about him... but supposedly starred in NFL Europe, and Jets fans seem PO'd to lose him. Don't know if you'll see him Sunday or not.)

LE - Matt Roth (2nd round draftee, little undersized - unbelieveable motor, but needs to learn better technique. Don't know if you'll see him Sunday or not.)

DT - Manny Wright (5th round supplemental pick... developmental guy with huge potential. My guess he's an inactive for Sunday.)

Starting LB's

WLB - Junior Seau. Still probably our best blitzing LB, and still can bring it.

MLB - Zach Thomas. Still a heck of a little player who can defend from sideline to sideline.

SLB - Channing Crowder. (3rd round draft pick, and coming on strong. He's beaten out Donnie Spragan (whom Bronco fans should know well) for the start on Sunday... and has played well all preseason at all 3 LB positions. Mark this one down.... if his knee's stay healthy (college injuries), this kid is going to be real good for long time.)

Top Backups

SLB - Donnie Spragan. (Free agent pickup, played solidly all preseason... and really spectacularly on a couple of occasions). I'd feel good about Spragan stepping in for either the WLB or SLB slots.

SLB - Jason Glenn. (Free agent pickup, played really well in the preseason as a reserve... and is a special teams maven.)

WLB - Derrick Pope. (Played decent in preseason, and another special teams demon.)

WLB - Eddie Moore. (Was injured most of preseason, but has great speed at LB... great in coverage, and a good special teamer.)

Starting Secondary

LCB - Reggie Howard. (After a shaky start, has come on through the preseason to win the start Sunday against Travis Daniels. Solid tackler, and slightly above average in coverage.)

RCB - Sam Madison. (Still good coverage guy, but he's being asked to do alot more in run support - where he's struggled a little this preseason. I'd try to run outside at him if I were the Bronco's.)

Nickleback - Travis Daniels. (4th round draft pick. He's had the advanatge of playing for Saban 4 years at LSU... and has looked fantastic for a 4th round pick. Held back a little lately with a hamstring, but I saw him cover Jimmy Smith (jags) stride for stride in the preseason.

SS - Tebucky Jones. (Free agent pickup. Very big, with good speed... but struggles some in coverage. He'll bring the wood on tackling though... good run support.)

FS - Yeramiah Bell. (Previous coaching staff raved about the kid, but this is the first year he's made it to the season without an injury. Big and rangey, with good speed. Ha played well in coverage, though he's gotten outjumped for a ball or two in the preseason. Essientially a rookie due to two year ending injuries).

Top Backups.

We're thin in the secondary due to the injury to Will Poole who was an excellent nickle for us last year, and likely would have started at CB this season if not for the injury. He's on PUP - and the coaches are hoping he can return in the middle of the year.

SS - Lance Shulters. (Free agent pickup. Veteran who's seemed to struggle a little picking up Sabans system... but who has made progress.)

FS - Travares Tillman. (Free agent pickup. Veteran who's played decent during the preseason as a reserve.)

RCB - Eddie Jackson. (Recent waiver wire pickup from Carolina... has fantastic speed/size, but I don't know much about him. Supposedly another good special teams guy.)

LCB - Kiwuakee Thomas. (Recent waiver wire pickup from Jacksonville... another special teamer, don't know much about him.)

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OFFENSE

Again I can only give you a general impression, as we've only gameplanned once this preseason... and this is a new offense in Dolphin land. We'll be going deep on passes a heck of a lot more than Dolfans are used too... and utilizing the FB a lot less, and as more of an H-Back position. With our OL and QB struggles this preseason, we certainly haven't seen it all come together yet except for a single drive or two.... but what we have seen looks pretty darn exciting compared to the mess on offense he had in 2004. Dolphin receivers have been sited running wide open deep... but we haven't been able to connect many times as of yet. Frerotte has overthrown some guys.... Feeley seems to lock onto one receiver and not look downfield much. Actually Sage Rosenfels has looked like our best QB in preseason.... but thats with 2nd, 3rd, and scrub team players in the game. Gus does know the offense, and does seem in better command out there.... but we're just going to have to hope he gets more accurate. lol

Starting O-Line

LT - Damian McIntosh. Has looked worlds better than last season (when he played with ankle injuries) since he was elevated to first team.... and looked surprizingly good in the run game.

LG - Jeno James. Picked him up last year from Carolina. Has looked solid in preseason... but struggles occasionally with pass blocking.

C - Seth McKinney. This is a guy most Dolphin fans would like to see replaced.... but the top candidate is Rex Hadnot whose simply better than anyone at RG who could replace him. Seth has the talent, but just has never seemed to put it together. Good feet, and can get to the 2nd level.... but he can be bull rushed effectively, and its a familiar sight to see him pushed into the backfield several times a game.

RG - Rex Hadnot. Bulldozer in run blocking... usually gets good movement. can be beat in pass protection... but he's a gamer.

RT - Vernon Carey. Started preseason at LT... and played really well. Big strong kid, and good run blocker. Moved to RT the last two preseaosn games mostly because our only big FA pickup along the OL (Stockar McDougal) kept screwing up at RT in pass protection (mostly blitz pickups). Vernon is still adjusting a little to RT I think and hasn't played quite as well as he was at LT... but has the tools to be really good there.

Top backups - Who I hope you don't see Sunday. LOL

RT - Stockar McDougal. (Free agent pickup. Huge kid, who should be better than what he showed this preseason. Good run blocker... but really struggled in pass protection this preseason. I've wondered why they don't try him at RG... since he seems to struggle in space.)

C/G - Alonzo Ephraim. (Free agent pickup. Played decently in reserve during preseason.)

LT - Anthony Alabi. (5th round draft pick. A project LT whose shown promise.)

C/G - Joe Berger. (Just picked him up off waiver wire, and released last years starting RT John St. Clair who was working at guard all preseason. Don't know a thing about him.)

Starting backfield

FB - Heath Evans. (Free agent pickup. Haven't been much impressed with his lead blocking, but he gives good effort. Has good hands out of the backfield, and a little running ability.)

HB - Ronnie Brown. (#1 draft pick. We've only seen him in two games with limited carries... but the kids talent is obvious. Really fast (4.3) with good size... and decent vision. Very good blocking, with blitz pickups... and great hands - though our QB's have struggled getting him the ball in games so far. He'll put a lick on you... and seems a very mature young man. Doubt you'll see him for more than 15 to 20 carries as Saban is still trying to work him in.)

QB - Gus Frerotte. (I'm sure you guys know all about Gus. He has a good command of the offense (his 3rd year running Linehan's system)... has good arm strength... displays leadership qualities... but just hasn't put it quite all together this preseason. Overall we think he's a decent improvement over what we've had at the position the last few years, but he needs to improve his downfield accuracy.)

TE - Randy McMichael. You don't need me to tell you about this guy, our top receiver last year.

Top backups - Minus Ricky Williams who despite his one year layoff looked absolutely great in preseason. Wish we were getting you guys in October, when we'd have both Brown and Williams available to counter Bell and Anderson on your side.... and we saw some sets in preseason with both Brown and Williams in the game.

HB - Travis Minor. (Veteran 3rd down scatback type... good moves, good hands, can do alot of things. Good special teamer, and decent kickoff returner.)

HB - Sammy Morris. (Leading rusher from last year (such as it was). Good effort on runs, will surprize you with power and wiggle sometimes. Can play FB in a pinch, great special teamer.)

HB - Jesse Chatman. (Recent pickup from San Diego... you guys probably know more about him than I do. Supposedly good on special teams.)

QB - Sage Rosenfels. (Tall, good arm, decent talent in all areas. Perenial 3rd stringer til this preseason, when his excellent play allowed him to move up to second string. )

QB - AJ Feeley. (Had a decent game or two... but two real stinkers, including the final game vs. Atlanta when he had a chance to claim the starting job and just choked. Demoted to 3rd string, but I don't think Saban has thrown in the towel on him yet.)

TE - Lorenzo Diamond. (Showed some really good things in preseason... athletic... good running after catch. Plays from H-Back some too.)

TE - Will Heller. (Recent pickup from Tampa Bay... supposedly good blocking TE with some receiving ability. Haven't seen him yet.)

Starting WR's

WR - Chris Chambers. (With a stable offense and decent QB alot of us homer Dolfans think this guy could be among the elite WR's in this league. Saban has said the same. I'm sure you guys know of him.)

WR - Marty Booker. (Some what disappointing season last year (who didn't in Wannstedt's stinker of an offense. lol). But big and tall... great run after catch ability, and looks to have a much better 2nd season in Miami.)

Top Backups.

3rd WR - David Boston. (Huge receiver with speed. Has looked really good in every preseason game, running good routes... displaying excellent hands... and showing some of his old scoot ability after the catch. You'll see him some on Sunday.)

WR - Wes Welker. (Showed some ability at WR this preseason (especially out of the slot), but is also a great return guy on special teams. Special teams captain.)

WR - Brian Gilmore. (Speedster who can get deep in a hurry. Showed some good hands in preseason, and ability to adjust to the ball. Really good flyer on punt coverage too.)

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Special teams

P - Matt Turk. Consistant vet.... but pulled a groin two weeks ago, and may miss Sundays game. Dolphins would have to activate Donnie Jones off the practise squad, and may do that prior to Sundays game. Jones punted well in preseason, but had a shank or two.

K - Olindo Mare. Has slipped a little in recent years from "sure money", but by all accounts had an excellent camp. NOTE - Turk is his holder, and if he can't play that might cause problems.

Main Return Man - Wes Welker. Best return guy Miami has had in quite a while.... seems to pop at least one punt return for a big gainer every game.

************************************************** ********

Well.... I'm sure like the thread title said, this is more than you ever wanted to know about the Dolphins - especially those special few among you who consider this a "gimmie" game for the mighty Bronco's. lol

As I said.... on paper, the Bronco's should win this game. But if paper counted, they wouldn't play'em at all. :) But you better hope the Bronco's players aren't thinking "gimmie"... because I expect these Dolphin players to come out and hit you in the mouth. With the Bronco's in those dark blue uni's under a hot Miami sun for four quarters - and with Nick Saban throwing things at Shanahan he can't have seen any tape on yet... I feel like the Dolphins have a decent shot at the upset.

We've got to control your running game somewhat, and then send the hounds after Plummer... hopefully he'll make a mistake or two. On offense, we just need to take care of the ball - and take advantage of the opportunities we're given. We've had receivers open all preseason, we just need to hit them..... the O-Line has played better this preseason than it did at almost any time last year - so there is improvement there. I'd blitz the heck out of us if I we're Shanahan... because our OL struggles in blitz pickups.

Good luck on Sunday, and hopefully noone on either team gets injured. Hope we kick your @ss!! LOL

[watermock]

Great post, welcome to the board. Saban was a great choice to coach. He was the one guy I would of liked to come when Shanahan was wavering about going to Florida.

I like Saban, just not this week. His day will come, just not this Sunday, hopefully.

[Mediator12]

Here is a reply to someone who fallaciously tried to post a response similar to yours. It is better suited here I guess:


Well they play the games for a reason don't they? Teams upset better teams on any Given Sunday.

That being said, I do not think any team in the NFL is markedly inferior to another like in College. The law of dimishing returns keeps the talent fairly equal in a 32 team league as opposed to 116 teams in Div. 1 ball. Saban had a lot of success at LSU, but he had a bunch of premier talent at that level too. He is not as lucky at Miami this year. That is not to say their is not talent in Miami, there is. Just not as disparate as when LSU lined up 75% of the time in college.

What I do not think the Dolphins have is any single matchup advantage over the Broncos. Frerotte played in DEN and we know his game better than Saban does. Your RB's are in FLUX at Best. You have Chambers who I think is very Good, but we have Bailey who is the Best CB IMHO. The OL has Been porous and can not create consistant Holes for your running game. Denver brings a two time fourth ranked Defense under Coyer that has upgraded its Pass rush and LOS penetration from last year. Your best weapon is McMichael, but Denver is used to scheming for Gonzalez and Gates and therefore should be able to contain him like they do those two Premier TE's.

On the other side of the ball, Madison goes from a Great #2 CB to a good #1 CB. Then, you have a first year starter on Lelie who led the league in Yards per catch and looks severely improved in his intermediate routes. The OL will open some Holes and Anderson will get 100+ and the running game will probably be close to 200 total. Plummer has been very good at protecting the ball this preseason, unlike the previous two years, and he knows the defense and ST's are improved so he does not need to press as much.

I just do not see ONE advantage in the matchups for Miami. Sorry! That does not mean that Miami will automatically lose though. Denver has trouble playing in FL in Sept in the past and it is the NFL.

[Bronco9798]

I fully expect Shanny to come out throwing Sunday and exploit that secondary very quickly. I expect Lelie to have some big plays Sunday and our TE's are a mis-match against those LB'ers and Safety's.

I think the Broncos pass early and run late. No reason for a lengthy explanation. It should be a mis-match on both sides of the ball. The Broncos are just a better team right now.

Vonnie Holiday and Keith Traylor are back-ups on any other team in the NFL, enough said.

[Rohirrim]

That's just too much to read. :pity:

[bendog]

Where'd bowens move to or did he stay in Mia.? He's from my state originally.

Too bad Bowens messed up in Den. He's a nice situational pass rusher.

[Mediator12]

I fully expect Shanny to come out throwing Sunday and exploit that secondary very quickly. I expect Lelie to have some big plays Sunday and our TE's are a mis-match against those LB'ers and Safety's.

I think the Broncos pass early and run late. No reason for a lengthy explanation. It should be a mis-match on both sides of the ball. The Broncos are just a better team right now.

Vonnie Holiday and Keith Traylor are back-ups on any other team in the NFL, enough said.

Why would the Broncos come out throwing against that pitiful run "D"??? Seriously, they will PA alot after gouging them for 50+ yards rushing on the first couple of drives. But Why pass when you can Run at will???

[Tredici]

That's just too much to read. :pity:

Well... once you start a post with this many excuses:


First of all, a little bit of a defense for my fellow Dol-fans:

1.) The 2004 Dolphins debacle was the teams first losing season since 1988... and only the third losing season for this franchise since 1970. With a total of 3 losing seasons in 35 years, we ain't used to being bad. With younger fans, last season may have been the only time they've seen the Dolphins with a losing record. lol Please try to keep that in mind when your calling some fans "morons", and "incredible homers", for thinking the Dolphins will be competitive this season or in this game.

2.) Despite all the hoopla surrounding Ricky Williams and David Boston last season (neither of whom played a down).... despite a rebuilding effort along the offensive line that saw 5 new starters in 2004... despite RB injuries that left a guy signed to be a backup FB as the starting TB for most of the year... despite a QB controversy between equally uninspiring backup level players... and despite a horrific run of injuries that decimated the Dolphins run defense up the middle (our two big starting DT's were lost to injury in the first game of the year, and two starting LB's went down)... the 2004 Dolphins won four games / lost an additional six games by one score or less / and an additional 3 games by 10 points or less. Taking into consideration that NINE Dolphins turnovers were returned for touchdowns in 2004... it's my opinion we were "competitive" even in a debacle of a season. Keep that in mind when you make statements that Dolphin fans should "accept being a bad team", or are just unrealistic regarding the Dolphins chances in 2005.

Why not just say - The Dolphins were/are a bad team because they have absolutely no depth?

Less is more....

[Mediator12]

Well... once you start a post with this many excuses:


First of all, a little bit of a defense for my fellow Dol-fans:

1.) The 2004 Dolphins debacle was the teams first losing season since 1988... and only the third losing season for this franchise since 1970. With a total of 3 losing seasons in 35 years, we ain't used to being bad. With younger fans, last season may have been the only time they've seen the Dolphins with a losing record. lol Please try to keep that in mind when your calling some fans "morons", and "incredible homers", for thinking the Dolphins will be competitive this season or in this game.

2.) Despite all the hoopla surrounding Ricky Williams and David Boston last season (neither of whom played a down).... despite a rebuilding effort along the offensive line that saw 5 new starters in 2004... despite RB injuries that left a guy signed to be a backup FB as the starting TB for most of the year... despite a QB controversy between equally uninspiring backup level players... and despite a horrific run of injuries that decimated the Dolphins run defense up the middle (our two big starting DT's were lost to injury in the first game of the year, and two starting LB's went down)... the 2004 Dolphins won four games / lost an additional six games by one score or less / and an additional 3 games by 10 points or less. Taking into consideration that NINE Dolphins turnovers were returned for touchdowns in 2004... it's my opinion we were "competitive" even in a debacle of a season. Keep that in mind when you make statements that Dolphin fans should "accept being a bad team", or are just unrealistic regarding the Dolphins chances in 2005.

Why not just say - The Dolphins were/are a bad team because they have absolutely no depth?

Less is more....

And marginal offensive skill position players ;D

[bendog]

Why would the Broncos come out throwing against that pitiful run "D"??? Seriously, they will PA alot after gouging them for 50+ yards rushing on the first couple of drives. But Why pass when you can Run at will???
With Holliday and Trailer at DT, shanny's gonna chop em early and often with a heavy dose of Marine. The yards may be in the air too, but shanny's gonna go to the body on an old defense.

[ludo21]

It will be a tough game. But at every spot, skill for skill, the Broncos are just superior.

SHOULD be an easy win, but it'll come down to the 4th qrtr, but the better team will win, no trap game this time, sorry.

[Uncle Bill]

I don't really think there's such a thing as a "trap game" in the first week of the season--every team is going to come out well-prepared and play hard regardless of the opponent's supposed strength. If this were week 10, I might be worried about overlooking someone, but not in week 1...

[missingnumber7]

With all the smack running back and forth all over cyberspace between fans of our two teams... there hasn't been much football talk about the game.
Starting LB's

WLB - Junior Seau. Still probably our best blitzing LB, and still can bring it.

MLB - Zach Thomas. Still a heck of a little player who can defend from sideline to sideline.

SLB - Channing Crowder. (3rd round draft pick, and coming on strong. He's beaten out Donnie Spragan (whom Bronco fans should know well) for the start on Sunday... and has played well all preseason at all 3 LB positions. Mark this one down.... if his knee's stay healthy (college injuries), this kid is going to be real good for long time.)

Ok so my first point is going to be this is the game crap that happened last year when we handed out the beatdown at milehigh
2nd point...thus the LB's...I think they should change the LB's names...It should be
SLB..that new clam chowder guy
MLB Zack 'please don't do another summersult in the endzone' Thomas
WLB Junior 'i'm really to old to be called junior anymore' "i'm the only one that says ow anymore.

[2KBack]

I'm in basic agreeance (is that a word?) that the Broncos SHOULD win this game. Though I always have, and always will, fear Jason Taylor, that guy can get so pumped up and make game changing play after game changing play.

[Crushaholic]

Vonnie Holliday is on that team? LOL

I expect a good game. Obviously, the crowd won't be a factor... ROFL!

Now, where did I put my heart medication?

[orange 4 life]

Plummer has been very good at protecting the ball this preseason, unlike the previous two years.

very good post overall, but i have to take issue with this.
previous TWO year?

plummer had 15 td's and only 7 int's in '03.
he threw 3 int's in the opener (a blowout win at cinci) which means
he threw 4 int's the rest of the season.

he did an EXCELLENT job of protecting the ball in '03.

[bendog]

I'm in basic agreeance (is that a word?) that the Broncos SHOULD win this game. Though I always have, and always will, fear Jason Taylor, that guy can get so pumped up and make game changing play after game changing play.
THey put Jason Taylor in a 3-4? That makes no sense.

[orange 4 life]

..........and welcome to the board wockenbauss.

nice first post. very informative.

basically, i think this game couldve been a "trap" game (like a year ago) had it come in october or november, but being that its the opener its hard to see it going your way.
quite simply, we have the matchup advantage at virtually EVERY position on BOTH sides of the ball.
the only player on your team that scares the bejeesus out of me is jason taylor, who has played very well against us in the past.
if he gets loose and can wreak havoc (and create at least two turnovers (god forbid)) AND the kicking mule has a career game your team could possibly make it interesting, but short of that happening i just dont see it.

very well written and informative post though.
best of luck the rest of the way, and congrats on your coaching acquisition.

jake

[texasPHINS]

great post wockenbauss.... what you said was pretty accurate, although i don't know if i would have given as great reviews of our players as you have.

I remember hearing some bronco fans saying they wanted to talk football - well this is it. and i personally disagree with the "we have better players at every skill position" talk... Some are a wash or subjective (WR, DE), while others are more clear cut. One i think there should be no argument with is TE. I don't think Denver has a TE that is yet in McMichael's league. Not saying the talent isn't there... but as of yet, i haven't seen anyone on your team reach that echelon.

[texasPHINS]

THey put Jason Taylor in a 3-4? That makes no sense.
why does it not make any sense? because he's played DE his entire NFL career?

He played 3-4 in the preseason, dropping into coverage and actually did VERY well.... he was running step for step downfield with some WRs. Not saying he is a cover corner, but he can hold his own.

If you are athletic, the 3-4 shouldn't be too difficult to pick up. That and he is a smart guy, so its not mentally above him. He is, also, one of the more athletic DE's in the league...

[2KBack]

why does it not make any sense? because he's played DE his entire NFL career?

He played 3-4 in the preseason, dropping into coverage and actually did VERY well.... he was running step for step downfield with some WRs. Not saying he is a cover corner, but he can hold his own.

If you are athletic, the 3-4 shouldn't be too difficult to pick up. That and he is a smart guy, so its not mentally above him. He is, also, one of the more athletic DE's in the league...


I can see Taylor in a richard seymour/Terrell suggs role and excel.

as for the TE, I would agree that looking at last year we don't have one TE that compares favorably to McMichael. Though if you look at the overall production from all of Denvers TE things match up quite well.

[orange 4 life]

great post wockenbauss.... what you said was pretty accurate, although i don't know if i would have given as great reviews of our players as you have.

I remember hearing some bronco fans saying they wanted to talk football - well this is it. and i personally disagree with the "we have better players at every skill position" talk... Some are a wash or subjective (WR, DE), while others are more clear cut. One i think there should be no argument with is TE. I don't think Denver has a TE that is yet in McMichael's league. Not saying the talent isn't there... but as of yet, i haven't seen anyone on your team reach that echelon.

I would of course agree that we dont have ONE tight end at the level of mcmichael.
that said, we STILL might have the edge at that position.
why?
because we have MULTIPLE weapons at that position.
putz and alexander are VERY good if not stars, and jackson (if healthy) has hands and speed like that of a wr.
we havent seen much yet of wesley duke, but the talent is clearly there.
bottom line is that while we dont have ONE dominant tight end, we have a group of tight ends that collectively are quite impressive.

jake

[Orange Porpoise]

Vonnie Holliday is on that team? LOL

I expect a good game. Obviously, the crowd won't be a factor... ROFL!

Now, where did I put my heart medication?

Think again bud, the game is sold out.

[Bronco9798]

Why would the Broncos come out throwing against that pitiful run "D"??? Seriously, they will PA alot after gouging them for 50+ yards rushing on the first couple of drives. But Why pass when you can Run at will???

Why not? You have mis-matches all over the place. Call it a gut feeling. I just have a feeling Shanny's going to come out throwing the ball. Soften up the D and then run the ball later on and do what we do best, eat the clock with TOP. Throw the ball to score and run the ball to win in the end. MA can grind it out in the 3rd and 4th. Throw in TB with a few carries and you have a recipe for success!!!!

[Broncoman13]

why does it not make any sense? because he's played DE his entire NFL career?

He played 3-4 in the preseason, dropping into coverage and actually did VERY well.... he was running step for step downfield with some WRs. Not saying he is a cover corner, but he can hold his own.

If you are athletic, the 3-4 shouldn't be too difficult to pick up. That and he is a smart guy, so its not mentally above him. He is, also, one of the more athletic DE's in the league...

LMAO!!! I hope to see him covering Jeb Putzier on Sunday... Please let it be!!!

McMichael
2004 Miami Dolphins 16 16 73 791 10.8 42 4 9 1 42

Putzier
2004 Denver Broncos 16 5 36 572 15.9 39 2 10 0 27

Look at the starts!!! 5 starts. 15.9 yards per catch. 220 yards less and 2 TD's less in 1/3 the starts. McMichael is talented, make no mistake..... but he isn't a more talented receiver than Jeb

[Antilles]

great post wockenbauss.... what you said was pretty accurate, although i don't know if i would have given as great reviews of our players as you have.

I remember hearing some bronco fans saying they wanted to talk football - well this is it. and i personally disagree with the "we have better players at every skill position" talk... Some are a wash or subjective (WR, DE), while others are more clear cut. One i think there should be no argument with is TE. I don't think Denver has a TE that is yet in McMichael's league. Not saying the talent isn't there... but as of yet, i haven't seen anyone on your team reach that echelon.

I also think that there is at least a credible argument that the Doliphins have the edge on the D line. I personally don't agree, but one could argue that each line has one superstar (with Taylor having a slight edge over Pryce) and a couple of talented role-players. The reason I think that one could give the nod to the fins is that their role players, specifically Keven Carter and Kieth Traylor, have had very good years in the past, whereas our role players, Myers and Warren, are essentially a career back-up and a gifted player who has a reputation of being lazy. The preseason was a thing of beauty, but until I see it in a real game, I can't consider Myers and Warren anything more. Vonnie Holiday, of course, is a joke, and knocks the fin average down a bit. Boy I miss him in KC. Vonnie was always good for 30 plus yards a game on the bootleg. The Broncos, and thier fans, know all about Vonnie.

Still, even with this devil's-advocate analysis, I think what gives the Broncos the edge at DL is depth. I'll admit that I have only seen one Miami game this pre-season, but Bowens (he wasn't cut, right?) is the only solid back-up that I see on Miami's roster. Whereas Denver has Pope, Brown (or Ebenezer if Brown starts), Hamburgler, and Coleman who can and will be called on to take quality snaps.

TE I'd definately give the nod to Miami. I'd trade any TE on our roster for Randy right now.

As for the remaining positions - I can't see an argument for Miami. Maybe special teams, if we continue to have blocking issues but otherwise it all leans Denver.

p.s. I HATE games when everything leans Denver!

[maven]

Think again bud, the game is sold out.

It did take an extra day, and I bet you still will not see a full stadium come Sunday. Most likely, local corporations bought out the remaining tixs just to get the game televised.

[wockenbauss]

What I do not think the Dolphins have is any single matchup advantage over the Broncos.

Not one? LOL Come now. David Boston on your 3rd corner? Randy McMichael deep on Lynch?? I know you have fast and skillful LB's... but your not in the least worried about them sticking with a kid that runs a 4.3 in coverage??? On defense Saban will create mismatches in the rush game with his pressure scheme's... I guarantee it.

If your going to make a statement that the Bronco's are better at every position.... at least back it up with info - like I did.

Frerotte played in DEN and we know his game better than Saban does.

Well this is his 3rd year under OC - Scott Linehan, so do you know him better than Scott too.

Your RB's are in FLUX at Best. You have Chambers who I think is very Good, but we have Bailey who is the Best CB IMHO.

Our RB situation is miles better than last year... so you call it FLUX if you want. There's no doubt we'll miss Ricky Williams til October... but you make one mistake with Browns 4.3 speed - and all you'll see is the back of his jersey. Flux maybe... but thats something we surely didn't have at all last year.

Bailey is good.... but he's going to have to move around if he's going to cover Chambers the entire game. Miami has a good mix of receivers this year.. and Linehan will scheme to get guys open. They've been open all year so far. Gus just needs to get them the ball.

The OL has Been porous and can not create consistant Holes for your running game. Denver brings a two time fourth ranked Defense under Coyer that has upgraded its Pass rush and LOS penetration from last year.

Actually our first team OL has looked better than at anytime last year... providing good running lanes in 3 out of 5 preseason games (Piitsburgh and Chicago shut us down somewhat in the run game). I don't think you'll get consistant pressure unless you blitz often.... and if you give him time, Gus DOES know where to go with the ball in this offense.

Then, you have a first year starter on Lelie who led the league in Yards per catch and looks severely improved in his intermediate routes.

Howard isn't a first year starter. I guess your thinking of Daniels who'll play nickle for us.... and has looked extremely good. Lelie is dangerous no doubt.... but your not going to get our corners on an island like your used too with Madison and Surtain in the past. I expect your guys will make catches.... but their going to get pounded a few times by our safties as well.

The OL will open some Holes and Anderson will get 100+ and the running game will probably be close to 200 total.

You make it sound easy. LOL This is hard for a Dolphins fan to take... coming from 2003 when we didn't allow a single 100 yard rusher, to the injury pluaged 2004 campaign when everyone ran on us. I'm not sure what to expect out of Sabans bunch... who have been run on at times during the preseason. On the other hand, I do know your running game is priority #1 with the coaching staff.... and I'm sure they will have prepared for it. We'll just wait and see.... but I'm not prepared to take your word on it that you'll go for 200 quite yet. lol

I fully expect Shanny to come out throwing Sunday and exploit that secondary very quickly. I expect Lelie to have some big plays Sunday and our TE's are a mis-match against those LB'ers and Safety's.

Might be a plan, considering stopping the run is our coaches #1 priority vs. the Bronco's. For as little depth as we have in the secondary, I've been shocked by how well they've played this preseason. Some of that has likely been the amount of pressure we've gotten on the passer all preseason... and we've pressured EVERYONE. In a quarter and half vs. Jacksonville, our #1's sacked Leftwich 5 times. I know you guys like to rollout, and bootleg Plummer alot... so that might present issues with pressure. We'll see.

Vonnie Holiday and Keith Traylor are back-ups on any other team in the NFL, enough said.

I'm sorry... but thats just DUMB. Traylor got his snaps with the Superbowl champion Patriots last year.... and while Holiday was injured last year - he hasn't been a backup anywhere that I'm aware of. Other teams seemed to regard Holliday as an edge rusher though.... whereas he seems to play the run awfully well IMO.

Where'd bowens move to or did he stay in Mia.? He's from my state originally.

He's still with us, and listed in my main post above. He's listed on the roster as Jason Taylor's backup at OE... but situational pass rusher is correct. You'll see him on Sunday I'm sure. Collected 9.5 sacks for us last year opposite Taylor.

Why would the Broncos come out throwing against that pitiful run "D" Seriously, they will PA alot after gouging them for 50+ yards rushing on the first couple of drives. But Why pass when you can Run at will.

My my my.... confident are we???? LOL I hope you've got more than "they were a pitiful run defense last year" to back up your statements. We've had a couple runs popped on us in the preseason... but we didn't gameplan for any of those games, and the run defense has looked MILES better than at any time last year. The Bronco's got a good run game I know.... but noone is going to lay down for you on Sunday. I just have a hard time thinking you'll "run at will" on us... not when thats going to be our main focus for the game. I think we'll try and force you to prove Jake Plummer can take care of the ball better than he has in the past.

[wockenbauss]

Well... once you start a post with this many excuses: ..... Why not just say - The Dolphins were/are a bad team because they have absolutely no depth?

They aren't excuses... they are facts. Yes depth was a problem, and likely still is in areas... however there were only really two games the Dolphins weren't competitive in last year despite everything that happened. When your QB's throw NINE touchdowns to the other team... its hard to take losing 6 games by a single score or less. You go ahead and regard the Dolphins as a bad team this year if you want too.... but there have been some major improvements to a team that was fairly compeititive last year IMHO. Hope you get a real rude shock on Sunday my friend. lol

And marginal offensive skill position players .

Another DUMB comment. Our problems on offense are at OL and QB... period. Skill players we've got. Chris Chambers, Marty Booker, David Boston, Randy McMichael, Ronnie Brown, and Ricky Williams (after September)??? Skill position player wise... I wouldn't swap squads with the Bronco's - and thats a fact. Now if you wanna trade offensive lines... lets talk! LOL

Ok so my first point is going to be this is the game crap that happened last year when we handed out the beatdown at milehigh.

Beatdown???? You squeek by a 4-12 team like Miami by a fieldgoal, and refer to it as a beatdown??? LOL No wonder your still missing #7. hehe

SLB..that new clam chowder guy
MLB Zack 'please don't do another summersult in the endzone' Thomas
WLB Junior 'i'm really to old to be called junior anymore' "i'm the only one that says ow anymore..

I'll be real interested in some Bronco fan opinions on that new "clam chowder" guy after the game on Sunday. Kids a wrecking ball.

As for Zach.... when Plummer starts throwing picks Sunday, I'm sure Zach will be happy to provide you your yearly dose of endzone gymnastics. LOL

On Seau... your just wrong my friend. He was having a great year before getting injured in 2004.... and he can still lay the wood.

Though I always have, and always will, fear Jason Taylor, that guy can get so pumped up and make game changing play after game changing play.

He's looked better this preseason than he ever has IMHO. Saban (not a man prone to dole out hyperbolic praise of any kind) has said Jason Taylor would have been a Hall of Fame outside linebacker if he had played in the 3-4 his whole career. Jason Taylor in the hands of a defensive "mad scientist" like Saban, should scare alot of teams. LOL

THey put Jason Taylor in a 3-4? That makes no sense.


Wait til you see it man.... just wait. It'll make alot more sense to you after Sunday.

[GreatBronco16]

Jesus man, you're :pimp: your team for what appears to be a superbowl run.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Wockenbauss...

Thanks for the update. Here's one you missed. Lance Shulters has been elevated to the starter at SS instead of Yeramiah Bell.

I think everyone's heard the "on any given Sunday" speech enough by now to know what CAN happen, but we're mostly interested in what's LIKELY to happen. I'm not gong to try to compare every matchup on the field or insist that the Dolphins can't find an edge here or there. Instead I'd rather look at the matchups that matter most. There are 4 that are key:

1) Coaching- You've made a lot out of Saban's innovative schemes and ability to put together a game plan capable of baffling even the ghost of Vince Lombardi. The bottom line is this: Nick Saban is a rookie head coach; PERIOD. I like Saban and I think he'll probably be a good coach in this league, but let's not pretend he's got an advantage in this matchup. Winning in college does not neccessarily translate at the NFL level (just ask Dennis Erickson). Unlike a midseason game, Shanahan has had months to check out everything Saban is likely to do. He's probably got film of his first gig coaching Jr. High School tight ends by now. The NFL is about two things; talent and execution. Schemes are great, but here's something I've noticed about NFL players; they play best when they react on instinct rather than having to think. That's not to say that using a complicated offense or defense can't confuse another team. Denver's WC offense is one of the most complex in the NFL. But the teams that successfully use more complicated schemes are veteran teams that have had the time spent in the system to work out the bugs and grasp what's going on as second nature rather than having to think about it. Taking a team that is adjusting to a new coach, new players, new philosophy etc...and asking them to succeed right off the bat running complicated defenses is IMO, not an advantage in this game; it's a dissadvantage. Shanahan has been around this league a long time...long enough to see just about everything out there. It's not like Saban's rolling out the forward pass or the Wing T, something nobody's ever thought of before. Do not be suprised if you see Denver's offense create some big plays this Sunday. I look for Miami's trickery on defense to come back to haunt them. Keep in mind, the defense has to first figure out OUR offense, which is not easy. Thinking about both these things at once may prove to lead to Miami mistakes.

2) Offensive line- Here is where Denver wins this game. As you admitted, the interior Dolphin line is questionable in pass protection. Starting a rookie RB isn't likely to help take pressure off Gus. I don't see them keeping pressure up the middle out of Frerotte's face. Miami fans have tried to brush aside having a career backup starting with the "he's beter than Feeley" argument. Gus can't run. On Sunday he will need to. Expect to see a lot of Gerard Warren and Al Wilson in the backfield if your interior line can't win their matchups.

3) Defensive Line- Age isn't just creeping up, it's there. Traylor is not big, he's fat. Nobody who weighs 260 at 22 should weigh 340 at 35. Keith can clog up the middle of most rushing attacks, but this isn't most rushing attacks. Without the lateral quickness an interior lineman needs against this style of running game, his 340 lbs is a liabilty. Taylor is a better pass rusher than run stopper and Carter's best years ended about 3 years ago. Holliday is a guy Denver's seen before and knows how to play. I look for Denver to get close to 200 on the ground in this game. On our side, the D-Line has been the big story in the preseason. These guys have been maligned a lot, and I think you will see on Sunday why they are starting ahead of the guys who helped propell us to a 4th ranked defense last year.

Quarterback- There's no comparison here. With everything that's been said about Plummer's tendency to make mistakes, his INT percentage in Denver is almost the same as Frerotte's. The difference is Plummer can create on his own and Frerotte can't. Miami blitzes may sack him and they may not. He went down the second fewest times in the league last year. Expect to see our tight ends making plays in the seams of your defense if you blitz a lot. Frerotte is the weakest starter in the league with the possible exception of Patrick Ramsey, who probably won't be starting long.

The bottom line is this: Denver is more talented, especially where it counts most. Weather could be a factor or intangibles, but this team has clear advantages over yours, both on the field and the sidelines right now.

[wockenbauss]

Jesus man, you're :pimp: your team for what appears to be a superbowl run.

Me??????

Where have I said the Dolphins will "run at will" on Sunday????

Where did I type that the Dolphins "have an advantage at EVERY matchup position" vs. the Bronco's??????

I have no superbowl asperations for my team this year... and I'm well aware where our deficiencies are. I'm sorry if you see me refusing to agree with Bronco HOMERS that this is a "gimmie" game for the Donkies as pimping us for the Superbowl.... but it looks about 180 degree's different from where I'm sitting. :)

[GreatBronco16]

Wockenbauss...

Thanks for the update. Here's one you missed. Lance Shulters has been elevated to the starter at SS instead of Yeramiah Bell.

I think everyone's heard the "on any given Sunday" speech enough by now to know what CAN happen, but we're mostly interested in what's LIKELY to happen. I'm not gong to try to compare every matchup on the field or insist that the Dolphins can't find an edge here or there. Instead I'd rather look at the matchups that matter most. There are 4 that are key:

1) Coaching- You've made a lot out of Saban's innovative schemes and ability to put together a game plan capable of baffling even the ghost of Vince Lombardi. The bottom line is this: Nick Saban is a rookie head coach; PERIOD. I like Saban and I think he'll probably be a good coach in this league, but let's not pretend he's got an advantage in this matchup. Winning in college does not neccessarily translate at the NFL level (just ask Dennis Erickson). Unlike a midseason game, Shanahan has had months to check out everything Saban is likely to do. He's probably got film of his first gig coaching Jr. High School tight ends by now. The NFL is about two things; talent and execution. Schemes are great, but here's something I've noticed about NFL players; they play best when they react on instinct rather than having to think. That's not to say that using a complicated offense or defense can't confuse another team. Denver's WC offense is one of the most complex in the NFL. But the teams that successfully use more complicated schemes are veteran teams that have had the time spent in the system to work out the bugs and grasp what's going on as second nature rather than having to think about it. Taking a team that is adjusting to a new coach, new players, new philosophy etc...and asking them to succeed right off the bat running complicated defenses is IMO, not an advantage in this game; it's a dissadvantage. Shanahan has been around this league a long time...long enough to see just about everything out there. It's not like Saban's rolling out the forward pass or the Wing T, something nobody's ever thought of before. Do not be suprised if you see Denver's offense create some big plays this Sunday. I look for Miami's trickery on defense to come back to haunt them. Keep in mind, the defense has to first figure out OUR offense, which is not easy. Thinking about both these things at once may prove to lead to Miami mistakes.

2) Offensive line- Here is where Denver wins this game. As you admitted, the interior Dolphin line is questionable in pass protection. Starting a rookie RB isn't likely to help take pressure off Gus. I don't see them keeping pressure up the middle out of Frerotte's face. Miami fans have tried to brush aside having a career backup starting with the "he's beter than Feeley" argument. Gus can't run. On Sunday he will need to. Expect to see a lot of Gerard Warren and Al Wilson in the backfield if your interior line can't win their matchups.

3) Defensive Line- Age isn't just creeping up, it's there. Traylor is not big, he's fat. Nobody who weighs 260 at 22 should weigh 340 at 35. Keith can clog up the middle of most rushing attacks, but this isn't most rushing attacks. Without the lateral quickness an interior lineman needs against this style of running game, his 340 lbs is a liabilty. Taylor is a better pass rusher than run stopper and Carter's best years ended about 3 years ago. Holliday is a guy Denver's seen before and knows how to play. I look for Denver to get close to 200 on the ground in this game. On our side, the D-Line has been the big story in the preseason. These guys have been maligned a lot, and I think you will see on Sunday why they are starting ahead of the guys who helped propell us to a 4th ranked defense last year.

Quarterback- There's no comparison here. With everything that's been said about Plummer's tendency to make mistakes, his INT percentage in Denver is almost the same as Frerotte's. The difference is Plummer can create on his own and Frerotte can't. Miami blitzes may sack him and they may not. He went down the second fewest times in the league last year. Expect to see our tight ends making plays in the seams of your defense if you blitz a lot. Frerotte is the weakest starter in the league with the possible exception of Patrick Ramsey, who probably won't be starting long.

The bottom line is this: Denver is more talented, especially where it counts most. Weather could be a factor or intangibles, but this team has clear advantages over yours, both on the field and the sidelines right now.

Lord I hope you didn't post that on their message board. I can just hear the pounding on their keyboards right now.

Great post and Rep for it.

[Broncoman13]

3-4 has been a problem for the Broncos in the past. I have a feeling that our 2 TE sets will be the featured formation this weekend. I'm still hoping that Jason Taylor draws a coverage assignment on Jeb Putzier. Jeb will run away from him with ease. There's a big difference in having speed from the edge of the line and having speed to cover a fast TE down field.

The Phins saving grace this weekend may be that Nate Jackson is injured. Lined up as a TE Nate would run past Taylor or Crowda and be open all day long!!!

Fishfan keeps talking about the pressure. Do your homework Jr. How many sacks did the Broncos give up last year? I don't care what your out-a-shape DT's did in 3 quarters of preseason football. Not b/c it's preseason but b/c it's only a few plays spread over 4 games! You don't have any rotation and Denver will be running the ball at will by the 4th quarter...as we go on to preserve our win! Put 7 or 8 in the box and watch Ash torch your secondary. Did I mention that 3 of our TE's run like WR's?

When we go with the Two TE formation your boys will have to expect run and react to pass. They will also not have the luxury of having an extra DB on the field b/c it is a run formation. So we dictate the match-up and force a LB to cover one of the safeties... unless you want to leave Ash one-on-one with a CB by using a safety on a TE... either way, we are dictating the match-up and you can rest assured Jake will quickly identify whether his TE's are covered by a LB or S. If it's LB then he looks for his TE... if it's safety he looks to his WR. It's one of the easier progressions he'll have all day!!!

That will eventually force you to put a nickel package in b/c the LB's won't be able to cover our TE's. I can't stress that enough. Your LB's will struggle bad if they are asked to cover our TE's!!! Anyhow, once the nickel comes in the ground game comes alive...out of the same formation!!! At that point the mixture of PA, Bootlegs, and occassional bombs to Lelie will cause mass confusion. At the beginning of the week I was concerned about this game. The more I think about it the more I realize that we will be able to dictate a lot of match-ups. I.e. forcing a safety to cover a TE leaving Ash in man coverage!

On defense I won't get into our DL vs your OL. You already know how poor your OL is. It wouldn't take a good DL to put pressure on Gus. I won't say that our DL is the best in the league. But I'll guarantee that they'll be putting a lot more hits on Gus than you think.

Make the mistake of thinking that Darrent Williams can't play. He's got a ton of reps in camp and the preseason b/c of Champ's injury. He's drawn assignments on Andre Johnson and Marvin Harrison to name a few. For a rookie he handled them both really well. Boston's no Andre Johnson...I'm not concerned.

The only thing I'm remotely concerned about is the double move. Both Champ and Walls have a tendency to bite on the double move. Champ got beat a few times like that last year. Walls got beat like that by Reggie Wayne. If they bite and are beat Lynch can't make the play w/his speed or lack thereof. But, even in that event, Gus will need time to get the ball down field and I don't see anyway that happens.

Final score... Denver 27 Miami 13.

Also, for more on Saban's defense I suggest you read SoCal's analysis. It's sad but he knows more about your team and your defense than you do!!!

[footstepsfrom#27]

Lord I hope you didn't post that on their message board. I can just hear the pounding on their keyboards right now.

Great post and Rep for it.
I posted worse.

[Rohirrim]

Here's the thing about rookie running backs. Very few of them can adapt to the speed of the NFL game in their first year, let alone their first game. They don't get it in the pre-season games, especially if they come late to camp. Here's why: They have a set of habits and patterns geared toward the competition they faced in the past. When they enter the NFL they are faced with a challenge. The ones who become great are the ones that realize they have to take it up a big notch, in training, awareness, skills, knowledge of the game, etc. The ones who don't make it are the ones who think all that back-patting and ass kissing they got on campus is going to translate to yards in the NFL. Nobody knows which road Brown is going to take. Yet. But I guarantee you, Sunday's game against the LBs of Denver is going to be the surprise of his life. His ingrained habits and patterns are going to lead him to take outside breaks he shouldn't take (but could get away with in college) or dance moves that will get him plowed in the NFL. I'll be surprised if he breaks the fifty yard mark.

[wockenbauss]

Thanks for the update. Here's one you missed. Lance Shulters has been elevated to the starter at SS instead of Yeramiah Bell.

Yes... just saw that this morning footsteps. Probably because Schulters will be a little better in run support IMO.

1) Coaching- You've made a lot out of Saban's innovative schemes and ability to put together a game plan capable of baffling even the ghost of Vince Lombardi.

I did??? Where exactly did I do that? LOL

I certainly didn't disrespect Shanahan, whose been a good coach in this league for alot of years. I agree with alot of your points... teams implementing a new system do usually struggle to implement it early. But I have to tell you, compared to what we had last year in Miami.... we've taken a quantum leap in coaching. I don't think even new system struggles are going to keep Linehan's offense from outshining that abortion of a scheme cooked up by Wannstedt and Foerster last season. LOL He has alot more talent at the skills positions to work with this year too.

On defense... I'm sure we'll make mistakes, and provide some opportunities for the Bronco's to make some big plays. However, there is still quite a bit of talent on the Miami defense.... and despite being decimated by injuries, those guys kept Miami in almost every game they played last year. This defense is doing things that I (as a 35 year Dolphins fan) have never seen a Miami defense do... and the head coach is calling it "vanilla". lol In any case... I've been really surprized at the level of our defensive play in the preseason in a totally new scheme - and its really exciting to know that they are going to improve throughout the year as everyone become more and more comfortable in Saban's scheme's.

2) Offensive line- Here is where Denver wins this game. As you admitted, the interior Dolphin line is questionable in pass protection. Starting a rookie RB isn't likely to help take pressure off Gus. I don't see them keeping pressure up the middle out of Frerotte's face.

Well I don't feel great about the pass protection up the middle.... but it isn't like they've been beaten much one on one either. The entire OL has done fairly well in pass protection during the preseason, other than facing blitzs. As for Brown, I've been shocked with his blocking ability to be honest..... and he sure hasn't looked like a rookie RB with his blitz pickups.

Miami fans have tried to brush aside having a career backup starting with the "he's beter than Feeley" argument. Gus can't run. On Sunday he will need to. Expect to see a lot of Gerard Warren and Al Wilson in the backfield if your interior line can't win their matchups.

I'm not brushing aside any arguments about our QB position. They've stunk. lol However, Gus has been in command out there.... he's just missed some wide open receivers, and had a few drops. He's made good reads, and thrown to the correct recevier... we just haven't connected enough, as Gus has never struck me as all that accurate a passer. He knows out offense inside and out though having played under Linehan in Minny for two years. As for running... thats kind of funny, because one of the best arguments in Dolphin land FOR Frerotte has been his ability to feel the rush and move in the pocket. LOL

I've heard alot of good things about Warren from Bronco's fan this preseason... but I have to tell you - watching him in Cleveland, he didn't impress me alot. We'll see. If your only bringing four... I'm not all that worried, as McKinney can help out our guards... but I have no doubt you'll get pressure with the blitz. Hopefully Gus can hit a few hot reads for a big play or two and back you guys out of it.... we'll see.

3) Defensive Line- Age isn't just creeping up, it's there. Traylor is not big, he's fat. Nobody who weighs 260 at 22 should weigh 340 at 35. Keith can clog up the middle of most rushing attacks, but this isn't most rushing attacks. Without the lateral quickness an interior lineman needs against this style of running game, his 340 lbs is a liabilty. Taylor is a better pass rusher than run stopper and Carter's best years ended about 3 years ago. Holliday is a guy Denver's seen before and knows how to play. I look for Denver to get close to 200 on the ground in this game.

Other than Traylor (and possibly McGill - as we've not seen alot of him yet) every Dolphins defensive lineman has alot of lateral quickness. Carter was used in Tennessee at DT primarily... whereas Miami has moved him to LE except in passing situations. He still put up 22 sacks his last three years in Tennessee... and has looked solid in the run game this preseason. Taylor has always been a better run defender than he's gotten credit for... and has speed to stay with most RB's. Holliday is playing inside exclusively with the Dolphins this year, and we've rotated in Zgonina quite a bit as well. Along with our trio of LB's... they've done a solid job vs. the run in preseason. Maybe you guys will go close to 200 on the ground in this game... but I don't expect it to be as easy as you folks seem to think. We'll see.

Quarterback- There's no comparison here. With everything that's been said about Plummer's tendency to make mistakes, his INT percentage in Denver is almost the same as Frerotte's. The difference is Plummer can create on his own and Frerotte can't. Miami blitzes may sack him and they may not. He went down the second fewest times in the league last year. Expect to see our tight ends making plays in the seams of your defense if you blitz a lot. Frerotte is the weakest starter in the league with the possible exception of Patrick Ramsey, who probably won't be starting long.

We'll see. I'm no great defender of Gus... but the man knows our offense, and has really good armstrength. Plummer can create on his own... is more mobile... and likely a much better player, but he's never really scared me as a starter. Over the years I've seen him, he seems much easier to panic into a mistake than Frerotte... but I give you the matchup. I think we will blitz alot... so Plummer should be prepared to hit those TE's quickly, and I'd like to see him getting rid of it early and floating a ball or two to our safties. I'm not going to compare Gus to QB's around the league.... though I think he'd outrate more than just Ramsey. If he doesn't get it done.. we'll go with one of the younger guys, but for now he's got his shot.

[texasPHINS]

I would of course agree that we dont have ONE tight end at the level of mcmichael.
that said, we STILL might have the edge at that position.
why?
because we have MULTIPLE weapons at that position.
putz and alexander are VERY good if not stars, and jackson (if healthy) has hands and speed like that of a wr.
we havent seen much yet of wesley duke, but the talent is clearly there.
bottom line is that while we dont have ONE dominant tight end, we have a group of tight ends that collectively are quite impressive.

jake
i dunno... comparing skill positions you don't "add up" players to match the skill of another single player. When we're talking about skill positions, and you guys are saying you "upp" us on every position, that would hold true save for TE. If you want to "add up" other positions, we could argue that our WR's better yours, because collectively Chambers, Booker, and Boston have each shown great years in their career... at least better than what Smith and Lelie have done combined.

now, i think that is a horrible argument, so i'm not saying that... i'm just giving an example of what you are doing.

You may have 3 tight ends that produce (combined) what McMike does, but you can't have all 3 on the field at the same time. and if any ONE of them was as good as McMike, that person would *probably* be starting for you at TE. Our 2nd string TE, Diamond, played very well this preseason... at some times even beating out McMike in catches and YAC. Diamond looks great, and will one day do well with some team.

[texasPHINS]

LMAO!!! I hope to see him covering Jeb Putzier on Sunday... Please let it be!!!

McMichael
2004 Miami Dolphins 16 16 73 791 10.8 42 4 9 1 42

Putzier
2004 Denver Broncos 16 5 36 572 15.9 39 2 10 0 27

Look at the starts!!! 5 starts. 15.9 yards per catch. 220 yards less and 2 TD's less in 1/3 the starts. McMichael is talented, make no mistake..... but he isn't a more talented receiver than Jeb
Sorry, but i don't buy into "would-be" stats. If he was so great, why didn't he play all season? injury? if you want to play the "injury" game, i could point out how Boston "could have" had x # of yards for us last year, etc, etc....

the stats you show IS impressive for 5 games... but can he produce like that all year? if he does, i will be the first to admit i was wrong. But until then, McMike holds the edge at that position. Keep in mind Putzier has a TEN times better QB throwing to him.... McMIke manages to put up top-5 TE #'s with the worst QB's in the league.... something to chew on.

[2KBack]

i dunno... comparing skill positions you don't "add up" players to match the skill of another single player. When we're talking about skill positions, and you guys are saying you "upp" us on every position, that would hold true save for TE. If you want to "add up" other positions, we could argue that our WR's better yours, because collectively Chambers, Booker, and Boston have each shown great years in their career... at least better than what Smith and Lelie have done combined.

now, i think that is a horrible argument, so i'm not saying that... i'm just giving an example of what you are doing.

You may have 3 tight ends that produce (combined) what McMike does, but you can't have all 3 on the field at the same time. and if any ONE of them was as good as McMike, that person would *probably* be starting for you at TE. Our 2nd string TE, Diamond, played very well this preseason... at some times even beating out McMike in catches and YAC. Diamond looks great, and will one day do well with some team.

Adding up wide recievers is FAR different from TE, WR are on the field at the same time. This we are suggesting with the TE production difference is similar to combining several HB stats in a RBBC situation.

Also don't be so hasty suggesting that adding your WR stats would make them any better. Rod smith out produces both of your starting WR on an annual basis. Hell add Booker and Chamber's career stats together and they still don't equal Smith's.

Chambers: 233 3478 28TD
Booker: 365 4322 25TD
Smith: 712 9772 59TD

Edit: oh yeah, and 2 SB rings

[GreatBronco16]

Sorry, but i don't buy into "would-be" stats. If he was so great, why didn't he play all season? injury? if you want to play the "injury" game, i could point out how Boston "could have" had x # of yards for us last year, etc, etc....

the stats you show IS impressive for 5 games... but can he produce like that all year? if he does, i will be the first to admit i was wrong. But until then, McMike holds the edge at that position. Keep in mind Putzier has a TEN times better QB throwing to him.... McMIke manages to put up top-5 TE #'s with the worst QB's in the league.... something to chew on.


Well it's obvious that you guys are buying into the 'would-be stats' when you talk about what your rookie RB 'could' do, or what your rookie head coach 'could' do. Putz did play all year. Notice the '16' games played. He only started in 5 of them and yet he still put up similar numbers to your starting and best TE on your team. And you want to talk about the worst QB in the league?? I'm sure you thought Plummer was the worst QB in the world leading upto this season. Everyone outside of Denver thinks Plummer is still playing in Arizona. Miami might have the edge on matchup as far as TEs go, but it isn't by very much.

[texasPHINS]

Adding up wide recievers is FAR different from TE, WR are on the field at the same time. This we are suggesting with the TE production difference is similar to combining several HB stats in a RBBC situation.

Also don't be so hasty suggesting that adding your WR stats would make them any better. Rod smith out produces both of your starting WR on an annual basis. Hell add Booker and Chamber's career stats together and they still don't equal Smith's.

Chambers: 233 3478 28TD
Booker: 365 4322 25TD
Smith: 712 9772 59TD

Edit: oh yeah, and 2 SB rings
Smith's been in the league longer and has had the benefit of having QB's that weren't rejects. Chambers has had Fiedler his whole career - now do you REALLY think that is fair? Booker is from Chicago - when's the last time THEY had a good passing attack? I think all things considered, these guys have done their best to make mud out of cow-patties.

but these are dimensions that you can't compare or put a number on anyway - no point in discussing this.

[texasPHINS]

Well it's obvious that you guys are buying into the 'would-be stats' when you talk about what your rookie RB 'could' do, or what your rookie head coach 'could' do. Putz did play all year. Notice the '16' games played. He only started in 5 of them and yet he still put up similar numbers to your starting and best TE on your team. And you want to talk about the worst QB in the league?? I'm sure you thought Plummer was the worst QB in the world leading upto this season. Everyone outside of Denver thinks Plummer is still playing in Arizona. Miami might have the edge on matchup as far as TEs go, but it isn't by very much.
You're talking to the wrong dolphin fan buddy!

i said I don't buy into would-be stats, but then again I am not one predicting what my rookie RB "could" do. don't lump me in that category please. If Putz played in 16 games, then he played in 16 games. He put up good numbers, but they were shy of McMike's. whether he "started" or not really doesn't matter. Keep in mind that "starting" only means you are there on the first play. I didn't watch every denver game last year, but i saw a lot of Putzier. The fantasy gurus seemed to think he was going to blow up, so i had my eye on him (TEs are always scarce). He did ok, but not stellar. Like i said, we'll see this year. But you can't place players above others based on "potential."

I personally like Plummer, and i thought it was great when he flicked you guys off last year. He does what he can and takes a LOT of heat from you guys. I LOVED him in arizona, and think he has a better chance to show off his skills there in denver. He was one of my fantasy QB's last year, so yeah, i know where he plays ;) You guys talk him up a lot right now when you're smack talking against other teams, but i read this site last year - you guys are VERY critical of him and how he plays. Let me tell you something - you have no idea how good you have it. Plummer is worlds better than the garbage we have at QB. Don't take for granted your position. and on the same token, don't abandon your support for Plummer when he struggles.

What i'm ultimately saying here is don't quote me and then compare what i said to all the other dolphin fans.

[Broncoman13]

Here's the thing about rookie running backs. Very few of them can adapt to the speed of the NFL game in their first year, let alone their first game. They don't get it in the pre-season games, especially if they come late to camp. Here's why: They have a set of habits and patterns geared toward the competition they faced in the past. When they enter the NFL they are faced with a challenge. The ones who become great are the ones that realize they have to take it up a big notch, in training, awareness, skills, knowledge of the game, etc. The ones who don't make it are the ones who think all that back-patting and ass kissing they got on campus is going to translate to yards in the NFL. Nobody knows which road Brown is going to take. Yet. But I guarantee you, Sunday's game against the LBs of Denver is going to be the surprise of his life. His ingrained habits and patterns are going to lead him to take outside breaks he shouldn't take (but could get away with in college) or dance moves that will get him plowed in the NFL. I'll be surprised if he breaks the fifty yard mark.

Usually I agree with everything you post Ro... I think you're wrong here. Hell, we've had a group of rookie runners do very well in Denver alone! Add to that guys like Jamal Lewis, Shaun Alexander, Tomlinson, Edge, Julius Jones, Kevin Jones, and even Steven Jackson! Runners don't change much, that's one of the reasons they are easier to scout. I would have agreed if you said he'll likely be weak... adjusting to the playcalling and picking blitzes up. Think back to what Edge said when he came to the NFL. I'll be estactic if we keep Ronnie Brown under 50 yards...but I know the only way we do that is by getting up early and forcing them to throw the ball 35 times!

Honestly, I'm expecting about 75 yards from Brown with a sub 3.5 yard avg. I'd be suprised if he got much more than 20 or so carries. I'm not overly concerned with Miami running the ball, but that has very little to do with Ronnie Brown and a whole lot to do with their OL.

[texasPHINS]

Usually I agree with everything you post Ro... I think you're wrong here. Hell, we've had a group of rookie runners do very well in Denver alone! Add to that guys like Jamal Lewis, Shaun Alexander, Tomlinson, Edge, Julius Jones, Kevin Jones, and even Steven Jackson! Runners don't change much, that's one of the reasons they are easier to scout. I would have agreed if you said he'll likely be weak... adjusting to the playcalling and picking blitzes up. Think back to what Edge said when he came to the NFL. I'll be estactic if we keep Ronnie Brown under 50 yards...but I know the only way we do that is by getting up early and forcing them to throw the ball 35 times!

Honestly, I'm expecting about 75 yards from Brown with a sub 3.5 yard avg. I'd be suprised if he got much more than 20 or so carries. I'm not overly concerned with Miami running the ball, but that has very little to do with Ronnie Brown and a whole lot to do with their OL.

i agree pretty much 100% with that post. If you guys get up early that will force us to throw. Ronnie will be somewhat limited, but based on our crappy o-line, not his ability. i can see about 75 yards from him as well. if we get more than that, oh man! can you IMAGINE the homer threads on your favorite forum then? :P

[Broncoman13]

Adding up wide recievers is FAR different from TE, WR are on the field at the same time. This we are suggesting with the TE production difference is similar to combining several HB stats in a RBBC situation.

Also don't be so hasty suggesting that adding your WR stats would make them any better. Rod smith out produces both of your starting WR on an annual basis. Hell add Booker and Chamber's career stats together and they still don't equal Smith's.

Chambers: 233 3478 28TD
Booker: 365 4322 25TD
Smith: 712 9772 59TD

Edit: oh yeah, and 2 SB rings


That's what I'm talking about!!! HELL OF A POST!!! Talk about a fan that doesn't know anything outside of Fishland. Proof positive that Rod is one of the most underrated players in the league and has been for quite some time!!!

[Kaylore]

There is a lot of "our TE is better than your TE" going on here. There is also a lot of "Seau doesn't suck" going on too. Let's look at some matchups.

Dolphins O vs. Broncos D

O-line Vs D-line: We don't technically know, but it looks like advantage Broncos. Your line has holes and players have been moving around up there so much that there is a severe lack of continuity. Yes we picked up four players from the browns roster and the browns team was weak against the run last year, but our linebackers are better and those new players are added to a line that didn't lose any key players (outside of Hayward) and got back Pryce healthy. A line that was strong against the run. Advantage: Broncos

TE/RB VS LB: You have an excellent TE. Do you have more than one though? DJ Williams is 240 lbs. and can run down field with receivers let alone tight ends. Your running backs are deep, and have the speed to make some plays, but our linebacking corps is the fastest in the NFL. I would call this a tie except that your O-line is still a big question. Advantage: Broncos.

QB/Receivers VS Secondary: Your first two receivers look good, then things kind of fall off a bit. Their stats were low, but that has more to do with your poor QB then anything else. Champ Bailey is inarguably a top 3 corner and considered by many (and most of his peers) to be the best. Lenny walls is a very good corner and has great size. Darrent Williams looked amazing in preseason but we don't know how he'll look in a real game and he'll make rookie mistakes. This could give you the edge. If we have another weakness here, it’s at safety. Both aren't the fastest guys in the west, but they sure can lay some wood. Gus is a guy that should be back up/not a starter. He frequently overthrows his targets and has little mobility. With the way your O-line looks and your Quarterback, I would say that the advantage is in the Broncos favor here as well but its close.

Bronco O Vs Dolphin D

O-line Vs D Line - Denver's D is good but its thin. Don't believe what you've heard about it in decline, though. Tom Nalen, our center is in decline but the rest of the guys are young and kicking. Matt Lepsis held several pro-bowl defensive ends without a sack and the Broncos allowed the second fewest number of sacks last season, despite not a single lineman making a pro-bowl. I don't even need to address their success running the ball. The fins have a top End in Taylor. The rest are so-so. Taylor will allow other guys to pop lose and the return of your defensive tackles will really help out there. The Broncos tend to get pushed around a little in pass protection so I'll give you guys the edge here.

Our TE/Rb Vs your LB - Ok you have some very solid players. One is young and unproven, and the other two are old. that doesn't mean they aren't good, it just means they're slow. We're going to throw a lot to our TE's and have them running some deep patterns downfield. When Jake bootlegs out, your lack of speed will have trouble containing him there as well, and since you have already stated that they are going to play our run honest that means you could give up some really big plays on rollout passes. Our run game is always successful. Advantage Broncos.

QB/Receivers Vs. Secondary - Madison is an old number moving to the number one position. That said, I think he matches up well against Rod Smith. The big concern is ho is going to play up against Lelie? You guys can give up some deep bombs and Lelie was one of the best last year at making those plays (20 YPC). Who covers the third guy should we go three wide or motion one of our speed pass catching Tight ends into the slot? Jake has a had a good preseason and can make some plays. If he's flustered though, you can potentially create turnovers that will keep you in the game. I say advantage Broncos.

The Dolphins need to keep the game close, shut down the run and basically win the battle at the line. hopefully if they keep it close, the heat will be their 12th guy on the field. They force the Denver to become one-dimensional and get after Plummer and you have yourself a game.

Denver will come out firing right away and try to get some quick points on the board. After they establish a lead, Shanahan will just run the ball all second half and play ball hog. If you guys get behind early and look to Gus to save you, its over.

I predict a tight game with defensive battling but the Broncos come out on top. Denver 20 Dolphins 10.

[texasPHINS]

That's what I'm talking about!!! HELL OF A POST!!! Talk about a fan that doesn't know anything outside of Fishland. Proof positive that Rod is one of the most underrated players in the league and has been for quite some time!!!
Rod's not underrated. He's been to two probowls. probably should have gone last year, but the AFC is deep at WR talent, and there were others who performed with better #'s that were slighted.

Rod's also on two of my fantasy teams. Was last year too. I am very familiar with his capabilities. My only problem this year is on one of my teams i have him AND lelie.... never know which one will score any given week. Lelie started to catch up to Smith last year, and this year may surpass him. I guess we'll see...

[Broncoman13]

Rod's not underrated. He's been to two probowls. probably should have gone last year, but the AFC is deep at WR talent, and there were others who performed with better #'s that were slighted.

Rod's also on two of my fantasy teams. Was last year too. I am very familiar with his capabilities. My only problem this year is on one of my teams i have him AND lelie.... never know which one will score any given week. Lelie started to catch up to Smith last year, and this year may surpass him. I guess we'll see...


Uh, weren't you the one that posted you could add up your WR's numbers and have a better collective unit or some crazy crap like that. If that counted for something...we would have kept RICE!

[footstepsfrom#27]

I'm not brushing aside any arguments about our QB position.
...Gus has been in command out there.... he's just missed some wide open receivers, and had a few drops. He's made good reads, and thrown to the correct recevier... we just haven't connected enough, as Gus has never struck me as all that accurate a passer. He knows out offense inside and out though having played under Linehan in Minny for two years.
It isn't a question of whether he knows your offense, it's a question of ability. There's a reason he's a career backup...lack of talent. There is a considerable difference between running Minnesotta's offense and this one...very considerable.
As for running... thats kind of funny, because one of the best arguments in Dolphin land FOR Frerotte has been his ability to feel the rush and move in the pocket. LOL
I'm glad you find it so ammusing...Am I to understand you correctly...you're actually trying to tell me that one of the major selling points for this guy in your minds is his mobility? That may be the most bizzare thing I've read yet. I agree on one point; Gus will definitely feel the rush...escaping it is another matter. I don't know what happened in the preseason (not much blitzing going on), but I can assure you, Gus is anything but mobile. Perhaps you're comparing him to Marino?
I'm no great defender of Gus... but the man knows our offense, and has really good armstrength.
Why is he a career backup?
Plummer can create on his own... is more mobile... and likely a much better player, but he's never really scared me as a starter. Over the years I've seen him, he seems much easier to panic into a mistake than Frerotte...
Perhaps you should look at Gus's career INT percentages vs Plummer's in Denver. They are nearly the same, with Gus having a slight edge. Plummer, however, is getting better. Gus isn't.
I'm not going to compare Gus to QB's around the league.... though I think he'd outrate more than just Ramsey. If he doesn't get it done.. we'll go with one of the younger guys, but for now he's got his shot.
Who?
I'm not brushing aside any arguments about our QB position.
Well I'm glad to see you're not doing THAT... :alky:

[maven]

I think it comes down to this. Blitz, Blitz, Blitz. Pressure the Dolphins OL, pressure Ronnie Brown to pick up the blitz, and pressure Gus & put him down on the ground. Stack the box with 8, and see what the Dolphins can do.

[2KBack]

Smith's been in the league longer and has had the benefit of having QB's that weren't rejects. Chambers has had Fiedler his whole career - now do you REALLY think that is fair? Booker is from Chicago - when's the last time THEY had a good passing attack? I think all things considered, these guys have done their best to make mud out of cow-patties.

but these are dimensions that you can't compare or put a number on anyway - no point in discussing this.


To be fair, I will admit that Smith was lucky enough to play with Elway, but really only for 3 seasons. Most of Rods catches came from a man named Griese, I think you know him, he was in town not long ago.

[wockenbauss]

It isn't a question of whether he knows your offense, it's a question of ability. There's a reason he's a career backup...lack of talent. There is a considerable difference between running Minnesotta's offense and this one...very considerable.

Its the same system, with the same coordinator. Yes Minnisota had better personel - Moss, a betterl O-Line, etc... But the plays are the same. He hasn't been a "career backup"... because he started several years in Washington... even making the Pro-Bowl once. For the majority of his career he has been a backup though... if thats what your after. So was Rich Gannon for the most part, before he went to Oakland.

I'm glad you find it so ammusing...Am I to understand you correctly...you're actually trying to tell me that one of the major selling points for this guy in your minds is his mobility? That may be the most bizzare thing I've read yet.

I do find it amusing. :) Compared to AJ Feeley (his main compeititon in preseason) yes Gus is mobile. lol We don't run the large number of boots, waggles, and rollouts that you guys do in Denver... and there was no question during the preseason, that Gus had a better pocket presence... better feel for the rush.. and moved around better in the pocket.

I don't know what happened in the preseason (not much blitzing going on), but I can assure you, Gus is anything but mobile. Perhaps you're comparing him to Marino?

Actually we saw an amazing amount of blitzs this preseason... from the Hall of Fame game on.... and our O-Line handled them miserably. Gus Frerotte couldn't carry Dan Marino's jock strap.... but in a way, I suppose I'm talking about the same ability to buy a few extra seconds in the pocket - which Dan was the unquestion master at.

Why is he a career backup?

Once again... that depends on your definition of a career backup. Gus started several years in Washington... with a Pro Bowl appearance. He's thrown more INT's than TD's only twice in is career (check your boy Plummer's stats there btw) - both years where he started less than 4 games.

Perhaps you should look at Gus's career INT percentages vs Plummer's in Denver. They are nearly the same, with Gus having a slight edge. Plummer, however, is getting better. Gus isn't.

I have. Plummers numbers are NOT pretty. 141 INT's???? Damn! I didn't even think he was THAT bad. LOL And 20 picks last year??? Whew. :)

Look..... I wanted AJ Feeley to beat out Frerotte in preseason, but that didn't happen. Maybe Gus is a one year patch... or maybe even less than one year. Noone came on here bragging about how much better our QB was than yours.... although I think it's pretty pathetic that you call Gus a career backup - and then brag that your starter's INT percentage is only a little worse. LOL

Who?

Rattay in San Fran. Soon to be Orton in Chicago, would have been Grossman in Chicago. Boller in Baltimore. Maybe Dilfer in Cleveland. And the aformentioned Ramsay in Washington.

[wockenbauss]

I think it comes down to this. Blitz, Blitz, Blitz. Pressure the Dolphins OL, pressure Ronnie Brown to pick up the blitz, and pressure Gus & put him down on the ground. Stack the box with 8, and see what the Dolphins can do.

Yup. Miami's O-Line hasn't proven they can handle the blitz in any way shape or form. If I were Shanahan I'd bring it til they proved they could make a play against it.

Hopefully Mikey will try to make genius's of all you Bronco fans - and bring only his front four that everyone has been bragging on here. hehehe

[scorpio]

I'm going to ritually eat a pound of fish sticks on Sunday. Voodoo-like.

[Kaylore]

I'm going to ritually eat a pound of fish sticks on Sunday. Voodoo-like.
That sounds good. I like fish sticks.

[texasPHINS]

Uh, weren't you the one that posted you could add up your WR's numbers and have a better collective unit or some crazy crap like that. If that counted for something...we would have kept RICE!
If you want to "add up" other positions, we could argue that our WR's better yours, because collectively Chambers, Booker, and Boston have each shown great years in their career... at least better than what Smith and Lelie have done combined.

now, i think that is a horrible argument, so i'm not saying that... i'm just giving an example of what you are doing.

FYI.... this is what i said. My point was facetious, pointing out a horrible argument. it was not literal.

[texasPHINS]

To be fair, I will admit that Smith was lucky enough to play with Elway, but really only for 3 seasons. Most of Rods catches came from a man named Griese, I think you know him, he was in town not long ago.
oh god don't remind me. what a horrible situation that was. a talented guy that was overshadowed by the fact we had no o-line and the fact that he went from your offense to ours, which is apples to oranges.

Obviously his time in south florida didn't prove anything other than he wasn't the problem. Glad he's doing well in Tampa right now, but i wish we had him back.

At any rate, Rod has had 3 different QBs, which if you took the worst of them (Plummer, IMO), still beats the 2 Qbs Chambers has had combined. If you put Fiedler and Feeley together, you still wouldn't have a Plummer.

[DEfinsE!]

Dolphins Blitz is gonna have Plummer staring at the bright Miami Sun all game.

[Kaylore]

Dolphins Blitz is gonna have Plummer staring at the bright Miami Sun all game.
This is a well thought out post. Great read.

[Ballhawk]

Dolphins Blitz is gonna have Plummer staring at the bright Miami Sun all game.

Ya im sure Saben has fiqured out the smoke and mirrors behind an Oline that allowed 15 sack all of last year :giggle:

[DEfinsE!]

Ya im sure Saben has fiqured out the smoke and mirrors behind an Oline that allowed 15 sack all of last year :giggle:

First game of the year, September in Miami, i'm willing to bet that big oline of yours gets tired pretty early in the game, thus allowing pressure on Jake.

[texasPHINS]

Dolphins Blitz is gonna have Plummer staring at the bright Miami Sun all game.
yes, thanks for bringing ridiculous trash talk over here and representing fin fans everywhere very well.... because we all know, the denver o-line is crappy and easy to penetrate! ROFL!

come on man, THINK!

[Ballhawk]

First game of the year, September in Miami, i'm willing to bet that big oline of yours gets tired pretty early in the game, thus allowing pressure on Jake.

If our (lighter and quicker) Oline gets tired, then that means they have been on the field a long time...I think Im ok with that :alky:

[2KBack]

oh god don't remind me. what a horrible situation that was. a talented guy that was overshadowed by the fact we had no o-line and the fact that he went from your offense to ours, which is apples to oranges.

Obviously his time in south florida didn't prove anything other than he wasn't the problem. Glad he's doing well in Tampa right now, but i wish we had him back.

At any rate, Rod has had 3 different QBs, which if you took the worst of them (Plummer, IMO), still beats the 2 Qbs Chambers has had combined. If you put Fiedler and Feeley together, you still wouldn't have a Plummer.


It's nice to find a Plummer supporter outside of Denver. I guess we've been a little luckier in replacing our Hall of famer. Props on being able to debate this game without reverting to "plummer sucks" smack.

[texasPHINS]

It's nice to find a Plummer supporter outside of Denver. I guess we've been a little luckier in replacing our Hall of famer. Props on being able to debate this game without reverting to "plummer sucks" smack.
both of our Qbs combined do not add up to Plummer's yardage from last year.

Trust me, i'd take Plummer's turnovers to have his yardage.... Our Qb's have MORE turnovers, without the yardage.

and thanks... :)

[footstepsfrom#27]

Its the same system, with the same coordinator. Yes Minnisota had better personel - Moss, a betterl O-Line, etc... But the plays are the same. He hasn't been a "career backup"... because he started several years in Washington... even making the Pro-Bowl once. For the majority of his career he has been a backup though... if thats what your after. So was Rich Gannon for the most part, before he went to Oakland.
Let's not get carried away here. Gannon battled for the starting job and was WAY more mobile than Gus has ever been. He started 10 of his 17 years in the NFL and his numbers were WAY better than Gus's have ever been. Gus stunk in Washington as a starter. He had a composite QB rating of 66, and notched completion percentages of 46%, 50.3%, 57.4%, 50.7% and 46.3%. Those are not starters numbers no matter what you think. His competition? Heath Schuler, John Friesz and Jeff Hostetler...LOL When Trent Green showed up they shipped him out. In 4 years as a starter he threw only 4 more TD's than INT's and his "pro bowl" year of 1996 included a measly 12 TD's and 11 picks. If ever there was a perfect example of why the pro bowl is a joke, this is it. Or would you like to argue now that Gus Frerotte in 1996 was better than Brett Farve, Steve Young and Troy Aikman?
I do find it amusing. :) Compared to AJ Feeley (his main compeititon in preseason) yes Gus is mobile. lol We don't run the large number of boots, waggles, and rollouts that you guys do in Denver... and there was no question during the preseason, that Gus had a better pocket presence... better feel for the rush.. and moved around better in the pocket.
Who cares about AJ Feeley? I'm sure comparing him to Johnny Unitas makes him look mobile too, but Johnny U is dead so does that matter? Forget about boots, waggles and rollouts and get used to seeing Gus go down like a sack of potatoes when teams come with the blitz. You better hope Ronnie Brown catches about 80 balls this year because if he doesn't, Gus will eat it about 50 times. Do you think he can stand up to that? No way. The last time this guy started more than 6 games was 1997.
Actually we saw an amazing amount of blitzs this preseason... from the Hall of Fame game on.... and our O-Line handled them miserably.
That's not good. I'm sure Mike's seen it too. Gus + poor O-line=sacks, INT's and lots of punting.
Once again... that depends on your definition of a career backup. Gus started several years in Washington... with a Pro Bowl appearance. He's thrown more INT's than TD's only twice in is career (check your boy Plummer's stats there btw) - both years where he started less than 4 games.
Nice try. What you fail to mention is that Gus as a STARTER for four years also threw more TD's than INT's only twice. Surely you realize if you've been watching the game 35 years (I have too) that you can't compare stats for starters vs backups? Backups are used to hand off or mop up when the game's out of reach unless the starter goes down. Rarely are they ever asked to win games even when they start, let alone be a playmaker, something Plummer was asked to do almost by himself in Arizona. Let's look at Jake's numbers ONLY in Denver where he's had the benefit of Shanahan's coaching and some weapons to work with. In Denver Plummer has completed 59.7% of his passes to 54.6% for Gus, and throws an INT every 30.48 passes compared to Gus's 32.43, hardly a major difference.
Plummers numbers are NOT pretty. 141 INT's???? Damn! I didn't even think he was THAT bad. LOL And 20 picks last year??? Whew. :)
Obviously you didn't look deep enough.
Look..... I wanted AJ Feeley to beat out Frerotte in preseason, but that didn't happen. Maybe Gus is a one year patch... or maybe even less than one year. Noone came on here bragging about how much better our QB was than yours.... although I think it's pretty pathetic that you call Gus a career backup - and then brag that your starter's INT percentage is only a little worse.
What's pathetic is that for somebody who says they've watched the NFL for 35 years you can't distinguish the difference between a stiff like Gus Frerotte who started 4 years because the Skins had nobody else and a guy like Plummer who has been asked to be a playmaker his whole career. Plummer's INT numbers in the last two years in DENVER are roughly similiar to Elway's (1 INT per 32 passes, or even GASP DAN MARINO'S who threw a pick every 33 passes. The fact that you wanted AJ FEELEY (of all people) to beat out Frerotte in the preseason tells me EVERYTHING I need to know about how you REALY feel about your chances with Gus. Face it; you have a backup QB starting for you, and that translates into another LONG season in Miami.
Rattay in San Fran. Soon to be Orton in Chicago, would have been Grossman in Chicago. Boller in Baltimore. Maybe Dilfer in Cleveland. And the aformentioned Ramsay in Washington.
I would take any of those guys over Gus. Boller's a young guy with talent and way more potential as a starting QB than Gus, Dilfer won a Superbowl, something Gus has never done, Rattay completes over 60% of his passes and gets picked once for every 41 times he throws it despite playing with poor talent arouond him. His QB rating is 17 points higher than Gus's. Grossman was a #1 draft pick and he's injured, has started only 6 games in his career in 2 seasons and still has better numbers than Gus on a team with no offensive weapons...throwing a pick every 39 passes with a higher QB rating. That leaves Orton. Fine. He's never taken a snap. I'll give you that; Gus is better than a guy whose never thrown an NFL pass. He's better than me too. Does that make you feel better?

About AJ Feeley...get ready to see him back under center in the near future.

[texasPHINS]

About AJ Feeley...get ready to see back under center in the near future.
whew i hope not.... Sage before Feeley!

what is your take on Sage, BTW? have you seen him play?

[ludo21]

whew i hope not.... Sage before Feeley!

what is your take on Sage, BTW? have you seen him play?


Id rather have BVP as backup to be honest.

Sage is a typical backup.. He just isnt very good. If i were the fins, id hope Gus plays well, and doesnt get hurt.

[texasPHINS]

Id rather have BVP as backup to be honest.

Sage is a typical backup.. He just isnt very good. If i were the fins, id hope Gus plays well, and doesnt get hurt.
i'll trade you Feeley, Rosenfels, and Frerotte for BVP!

(*edit: when i am talking about Sage vs. Feeley, its really the lesser of two evils... *)

[footstepsfrom#27]

whew i hope not.... Sage before Feeley!

what is your take on Sage, BTW? have you seen him play?
I haven't seen him, but with 39 career passes in 4 years who has? I'd think you'd be better off with Gus than him but "Matt Leinhart" are the two words I'd be thinking about if I was Saban. Frerotte, Feeley and Rosenfels sounds like a law firm.

[sisterhellfyre]

One i think there should be no argument with is TE. I don't think Denver has a TE that is yet in McMichael's league. Not saying the talent isn't there... but as of yet, i haven't seen anyone on your team reach that echelon.

[sigh, shaking head[

Sorry, tex, but I think you're missing the point.

It doesn't matter a hill of beans if McMichael is a better TE than Alexander, Putzier or Jackson -- or even all three of them put together. McMichael isn't challenging Denver's TE Trio to a race. He's not calling them out for a duel. They're not going to line up against each other even once in the entire game.

The real question is how does McMichael stack up against Ian Gold or DJ Williams? Or even against Nick Ferguson or John Lynch?

Looks like an "edge - Broncos" to me.

Regards,
m.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Commenting on McMichael...he's had one big year and his career numbers beat Putziers for mainly one reason; Putz was playing behind the most prolific pass catching tight end in NFL history his first two years so obviously he wasn't going to play. Last year was his first chance to play and his numbers are pretty similiar to McMichaels first year, with Putz getting more yards and a higher ypc average but 2 fewer TD's. Talent-wise they appear about equal. When Putz improves his blocking I expect to see Alexander on the bench. Putz is a major downfield threat. I'm not sure McMichael can match that. He looks more like a medium range guy to me. He's good, but in the AFC West he's the 3rd best tight end.

[DomCasual]

Me??????

Where have I said the Dolphins will "run at will" on Sunday????

Where did I type that the Dolphins "have an advantage at EVERY matchup position" vs. the Bronco's??????

I have no superbowl asperations for my team this year... and I'm well aware where our deficiencies are. I'm sorry if you see me refusing to agree with Bronco HOMERS that this is a "gimmie" game for the Donkies as pimping us for the Superbowl.... but it looks about 180 degree's different from where I'm sitting. :)

Yeah, but who do you think will win the coin toss? WHO?

Ban this SOB! :yep:

[wabbit]

Wow

This thread is why I have attached myself to the Mane.

Some very fine football analysis here...really!...both sides.

Limited smack, just detail.

Good job & thanks...every one of you

[wockenbauss]

Let's not get carried away here. Gannon battled for the starting job and was WAY more mobile than Gus has ever been.

What is your absolute facination with mobility in QB's? Sure Michael Vick is nice to watch... but honestly, I'd prefer someone who'd stick in the pocket and deliver the frickin ball to my playmaker's. I'm not saying Gus Frerotte is that guy... but I'm sick of arguing a frickin subject that noone else but you seems to want to argue (Plummer vs. Frerotte), and on top of it having to read about your facination with "mobility". Not everyone runs the Denver offense footsteps... and believe it or not - non mobile QB's can play the game too.

Who cares about AJ Feeley?

Dolphin fans care. He's the only comparison (he and Sage Rosenfels) that actually matters.... other than Jay Fiedler - another backup QB who managed to win 9 or 10 games a year ever since Marino retired, excepting last year.

I'm sure comparing him to Johnny Unitas makes him look mobile too, but Johnny U is dead so does that matter?

Nope. Not unless we can dig him up and let him compete with Gus for the starting job in Miami. AJ Feeley and Sage Rosenfels are all that matter this year. Hopefully we'll have better options next year

Nice try. What you fail to mention is that Gus as a STARTER for four years also threw more TD's than INT's only twice.

Geez I hate this crap. Why do some guys like you want to argue a QB comparison, despite the fact someone already agree's with you???? Fine... you wanna look at stats? Look at these!

Gus Ferrote starting:

94 - 5 TD's 5 INT's
95 - 13 TD's 13 INT's
96 - 12 TD's 11 INT's
97 - 17 TD's 12 INT's

Jake Plummer starting:

97 - 15 TD's 15 INT's
98 - 17 TD's 20 INT's
99 - 9 TD's 24 INT's
00 - 13 TD's 21 INT's
01 - 18 TD's 14 INT's <---- Hurrah! Finally!
02 - 18 TD's 20 INT's
03 - 15 TD's 7 INT's <--- Incredible! Single digits!
04 - 27 TD's 20 INT's < Two years in a row! Fan-f'n-tastic!

Surely you realize if you've been watching the game 35 years (I have too) that you can't compare stats for starters vs backups?

Actually I think its pretty useless to compare stats between any QB's when what your actually measuring in great part is the quality of their surrounding talent as well. Plummer has played better in Denver with a better surrounding cast.... but he's still prone to mistakes... he still throws picks like popcorn... and while I've already said hes a better player than Gus Frerotte - apparently your unable to let the discussion go. Apparently so am I, or I wouldn't be responding to your useless drivel anymore.

Let's look at Jake's numbers ONLY in Denver where he's had the benefit of Shanahan's coaching and some weapons to work with.

Well now that would be convienient wouldn't it? What the hell does that prove?? Should we only use Gus' numbers under Linehan then??? This is ridiculous dude... really it is.

In Denver Plummer has completed 59.7% of his passes to 54.6% for Gus, and throws an INT every 30.48 passes compared to Gus's 32.43, hardly a major difference.

Sigh. Fine.... how about under Linehan. Under Linehan Frerotte completed 58.5% of his passes compared to 59.7% for Plummer in Denver, hardly a major difference. :P Plummers composite Denver QB rating is - 87.85 compared to Gus' Linehan rating of 118.1. Don't you agree this is stupid yet??? LOL

[wockenbauss]

What's pathetic is that for somebody who says they've watched the NFL for 35 years you can't distinguish the difference between a stiff like Gus Frerotte who started 4 years because the Skins had nobody else and a guy like Plummer who has been asked to be a playmaker his whole career.

Jesus Christ footsteps.... who the heck are you arguing with???? Isn't me saying (as I've done repeatedly) many many frickin times that Plummer is a better player - and the Bronco's have a better QB situation not enough for you??????????? What the heck are you looking for??? Want me to predict a 99 to 0 Bronco's win on Sunday simply because you have a better QB than the Dolphins???

If Frerotte is such a frickin useless stiff... why'd your coach wanna sign him to backup god's gift to QBing - Jake Plummer anyway?

The fact that you wanted AJ FEELEY (of all people) to beat out Frerotte in the preseason tells me EVERYTHING I need to know about how you REALY feel about your chances with Gus. Face it; you have a backup QB starting for you, and that translates into another LONG season in Miami.

Yes I wanted Feeley to win because he's younger... and if he did develop, he'd be around a lot longer - not to mention the genius' who formerly ran our team wasted a 2nd round pick aquiring him. As for us starting a backup... we've done that every year since Marino retired, and last year was the first since then, that we've failed to win at least nine games. You don't think Jay freakin Fiedler is backup? Huh? Frerotte may be a backup.... but that doesn't mean he isn't the best starter we've had since Dan Marino retired.

I would take any of those guys over Gus.

Yeah yeah yeah... to hear you tell it I'm sure you'd rather have Ryan Leaf in Denver rather than Gus too. Why'd Shanahan try to resign him this year footsteps??? Why is that?

About AJ Feeley...get ready to see him back under center in the near future.

Actually I think Sage Rosenfels will get the next shot if Frerotte can't get it done or gets injured.... I just hope poor ole Gus lay's about 5 TD's and 400 yards on your ungrateful @ssed Denver fans before he gives up the ghost. ROFL!

[footstepsfrom#27]

Jesus Christ footsteps.... who the heck are you arguing with? Isn't me saying (as I've done repeatedly) many many frickin times that Plummer is a better player - and the Bronco's have a better QB situation not enough for you?? What the heck are you looking for Want me to predict a 99 to 0 Bronco's win on Sunday simply because you have a better QB than the Dolphins

If Frerotte is such a frickin useless stiff... why'd your coach wanna sign him to backup god's gift to QBing - Jake Plummer anyway?
LOL...now isn't this more fun than Finhell?...you'd already be banned over there!! If you get this riled posting in here...better TIVO this baby on Sunday! :pfbbt:

[wockenbauss]

LOL...now isn't this more fun than Finhell?...you'd already be banned over there!! If you get this riled posting in here...better TIVO this baby on Sunday! :pfbbt:


Dunno... I don't post at Finheaven.com, although I read some of the opinions there from time to time. I used to love the old "Sporting News" boards... where fans of all teams could mix it up - but they've been gone for years. :)