Katrina = Gays fault ......

[Spider]

LOL Errand as you were saying about Dems blaming Bush ?
Sit down and read this , it goes with what I have been saying all along Christians like you are phoney , superficial in faith ......
I've been stunned at how long it took a prominent member of the Christian right to blame the destruction wrought by Hurricane Katrina on America's cultural decadence and immorality. Finally, Rick Scarborough of Vision America and the Judeo-Christian Council for Constitutional Restoration has stepped up to the plate, blaming Katrina on gay marriage, man-on-horse sex, and Israel for evacuating a portion of the Messiah's planned landing strip. He did so Volume 1, Number 24 (definitely not to be confused with a Bible verse) of his weekly email newsletter, the Scarborough Report, which you
can subscribe to here. (Since you can't view Scarborough's latest newsletter online right now, I'm going to excerpt his statement at length.)

Scarborough declared:

After September 11, 2001, "God bless America" was on everyone's lips. But what, exactly, are we asking God to bless - a nation moving a breakneck speed toward homosexual marriage, a nation awash in pornography, a nation in which our children are indoctrinated in perversion in the public schools, a nation in which most public displays of The Ten Commandments are considered offensive to the Constitution, a nation in which the elite does all in its considerable power to efface our Biblical heritage?

We are sowing the wind. Surely, we shall reap the whirlwind.

One other factor which must be considered: Days before Katrina nearly wiped New Orleans off the map, 9,000 Jewish residents of Gaza were driven from their homes with the full support of the United States government. Could this be a playing out of prophesy ("I will bless that nation that blesses you, and curse the nation that curses you")?

Please read on. I want to give you two examples - from today's headlines - of how we are bringing disaster on ourselves. And then tell you what you can do - right now, today - to begin to reverse the process.


So what were Scarborough's examples of "how we are bringing disaster on ourselves?" First, he cited California's AB 849, a bill changing the definition of marriage in that state from "a man and a woman" to "two persons." Scarborough's second example was even weirder, and more reflective of the Christian right's curious focus on, shall we say, unorthodox sex acts. Check out what he wrote:

In Washington State, a man recently died from internal injuries sustained from committing bestiality with a horse. The incident led police to raid a farm where people were going to have sex with animals.

Though they discovered hundreds of explicit videotapes, apparently, nothing can be done about it. Washington is one of only a handful of states that does not have a law against bestiality....


Is Scarborough suggesting something even more sinister than we know about FEMA head Michael Brown's days at the International Arabian Horse Association? Could Brown have somehow planned Katrina to distract from possible future revelations of horse buggering? And will Katrina now head north and east, towards Russia, where God will exact revenge for the death of Catherine the Great? Or could Scarborough be deadly serious in blaming a bunch of stallion shaggers in rural Washington for flooding New Orleans? Sometime a horse is just a horse, of course.

In case you're wondering if this Scarborough guy is just some isolated Fred Phelps wannabe with no constituency other than the inbred children he whooped into total submission with an axe handle, take a look at the list of confirmed speakers for his Countering the War on Faith Conference, which is scheduled for October 17-18 in Washington DC. They include likely 2008 presidential candidate Senator Sam Brownback, Alan Keyes, Gary Bauer and Phyllis Schlafly. Among invited speakers are David Horowitz, Zell Miller and Judge Roy Moore. The advisory board of Scarborough's Vision America, meanwhile, is comprised of a Who's Who of the Christian right, including heavy-hitters like D. James Kennedy, Jerry Falwell and Tim LaHaye.

I slipped into Scarborough's last conference, (read my coverage here) "Confronting the Judicial War on Faith," watched a taped address by Tom DeLay, and rubbed shoulders with a gaggle of Republican operatives currently engaged in ramming John Roberts through the Senate. Scarborough has elevated himself to a key role in the conservative movement, and his remarks should not be dismissed as mere horse-play.
Send to a friend
Post a Comment
Read all posts by Max Blumenthal

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/max-blumenthal/blaming-katrina-on-gays-_b_6856.html

[Rascal]

Well some morons blame Katrina on Bush...some morons blame it on gays. Chaulk it up to the usual idiotic suspects and move on.

To be honest I don't see where he says Katrina is gays fault as it appears he just shows examples of what he thinks is America destroying itself...but I wouldn't put it past him to believe it.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Well some morons blame Katrina on Bush..

I haven't heard anyone blame Bush for the hurricane, but I've heard a lot of people (not just Democrats, by any stretch) blame Bush for his failure to respond to the disaster in a timely manner - the result of which was a lot of unnecessary deaths.

"Unnecessary deaths" and "Bush" are almost becoming synonymous.

[Atlas]

LOL Errand as you were saying about Dems blaming Bush ?
Sit down and read this , it goes with what I have been saying all along Christians like you are phoney , superficial in faith ......
I've been stunned at how long it took a prominent member of the Christian right to blame the destruction wrought by Hurricane Katrina on America's cultural decadence and immorality. Finally, Rick Scarborough of Vision America and the Judeo-Christian Council for Constitutional Restoration has stepped up to the plate, blaming Katrina on gay marriage, man-on-horse sex, and Israel for evacuating a portion of the Messiah's planned landing strip. He did so Volume 1, Number 24 (definitely not to be confused with a Bible verse) of his weekly email newsletter, the Scarborough Report, which you
can subscribe to here. (Since you can't view Scarborough's latest newsletter online right now, I'm going to excerpt his statement at length.)

Scarborough declared:

After September 11, 2001, "God bless America" was on everyone's lips. But what, exactly, are we asking God to bless - a nation moving a breakneck speed toward homosexual marriage, a nation awash in pornography, a nation in which our children are indoctrinated in perversion in the public schools, a nation in which most public displays of The Ten Commandments are considered offensive to the Constitution, a nation in which the elite does all in its considerable power to efface our Biblical heritage?

We are sowing the wind. Surely, we shall reap the whirlwind.

One other factor which must be considered: Days before Katrina nearly wiped New Orleans off the map, 9,000 Jewish residents of Gaza were driven from their homes with the full support of the United States government. Could this be a playing out of prophesy ("I will bless that nation that blesses you, and curse the nation that curses you")?

Please read on. I want to give you two examples - from today's headlines - of how we are bringing disaster on ourselves. And then tell you what you can do - right now, today - to begin to reverse the process.


So what were Scarborough's examples of "how we are bringing disaster on ourselves?" First, he cited California's AB 849, a bill changing the definition of marriage in that state from "a man and a woman" to "two persons." Scarborough's second example was even weirder, and more reflective of the Christian right's curious focus on, shall we say, unorthodox sex acts. Check out what he wrote:

In Washington State, a man recently died from internal injuries sustained from committing bestiality with a horse. The incident led police to raid a farm where people were going to have sex with animals.

Though they discovered hundreds of explicit videotapes, apparently, nothing can be done about it. Washington is one of only a handful of states that does not have a law against bestiality....


Is Scarborough suggesting something even more sinister than we know about FEMA head Michael Brown's days at the International Arabian Horse Association? Could Brown have somehow planned Katrina to distract from possible future revelations of horse buggering? And will Katrina now head north and east, towards Russia, where God will exact revenge for the death of Catherine the Great? Or could Scarborough be deadly serious in blaming a bunch of stallion shaggers in rural Washington for flooding New Orleans? Sometime a horse is just a horse, of course.

In case you're wondering if this Scarborough guy is just some isolated Fred Phelps wannabe with no constituency other than the inbred children he whooped into total submission with an axe handle, take a look at the list of confirmed speakers for his Countering the War on Faith Conference, which is scheduled for October 17-18 in Washington DC. They include likely 2008 presidential candidate Senator Sam Brownback, Alan Keyes, Gary Bauer and Phyllis Schlafly. Among invited speakers are David Horowitz, Zell Miller and Judge Roy Moore. The advisory board of Scarborough's Vision America, meanwhile, is comprised of a Who's Who of the Christian right, including heavy-hitters like D. James Kennedy, Jerry Falwell and Tim LaHaye.

I slipped into Scarborough's last conference, (read my coverage here) "Confronting the Judicial War on Faith," watched a taped address by Tom DeLay, and rubbed shoulders with a gaggle of Republican operatives currently engaged in ramming John Roberts through the Senate. Scarborough has elevated himself to a key role in the conservative movement, and his remarks should not be dismissed as mere horse-play.
Send to a friend
Post a Comment
Read all posts by Max Blumenthal

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/max-blumenthal/blaming-katrina-on-gays-_b_6856.html

WOW Spider. That one needs to go into the Super POST Hall of Fame.

Repping you doesn't do it justice, Good work

[Atlas]

I haven't heard anyone blame Bush for the hurricane, but I've heard a lot of people (not just Democrats, by any stretch) blame Bush for his failure to respond to the disaster in a timely manner - the result of which was a lot of unnecessary deaths.

"Unnecessary deaths" and "Bush" are almost becoming synonymous.

Your wrong LABF. There is evidence that Bush did create this hurricane.

This is pretty funny.


Bush Causes Hurricane, Women & Children Hardest Hit

After careful deliberation and extensive research, a group of liberal bloggers have come to the conclusion that Hurricane Katrina (as well as all other hurricanes) are actually caused by President George W. Bush. An amazing feat for a man who reputedly signs important national security documents in red crayon to "show I mean business."

"For years we believed that hurricanes were merely intense low pressure areas that form over warm ocean waters and are fueled by water vapor that evaporates from the ocean surface," stated one atmospheric scientist. "It never occurred to us at the time that this phenomenon could just as easily have been caused by a Republican president. This is a seminal moment in the study of meteorology."

However, at least one liberal intellectual takes the argument a step further.

"I am here to say that President Bush did not cause Hurricane Katrina," opined the asinus wunderkind. "I maintain that George W. Bush is a hurricane."

Let's logically examine what we know. Bush is bad, hurricanes are bad. Bush kills innocent people, hurricanes kill innocent people. Bush refuses to speak with Cindy Sheehan, hurricanes don't speak with Cindy Sheehan*. Bush hates blacks and other minorities. Where do hurricanes occur? In tropical regions of the world. Who lives in these regions? I rest my case."

LMAO!!!!

[Atlas]

Scarborough declared:

After September 11, 2001, "God bless America" was on everyone's lips. But what, exactly, are we asking God to bless - a nation moving a breakneck speed toward homosexual marriage, a nation awash in pornography, a nation in which our children are indoctrinated in perversion in the public schools, a nation in which most public displays of The Ten Commandments are considered offensive to the Constitution, a nation in which the elite does all in its considerable power to efface our Biblical heritage?

We are sowing the wind. Surely, we shall reap the whirlwind.

One other factor which must be considered: Days before Katrina nearly wiped New Orleans off the map, 9,000 Jewish residents of Gaza were driven from their homes with the full support of the United States government. Could this be a playing out of prophesy ("I will bless that nation that blesses you, and curse the nation that curses you")?

Or could Scarborough be deadly serious in blaming a bunch of stallion shaggers in rural Washington for flooding New Orleans? Sometime a horse is just a horse, of course.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/max-blumenthal/blaming-katrina-on-gays-_b_6856.html

All this coming from a guy that was having an affair with his secretary and then murdered her in his office.......................

allegedly

[Spider]

Well some morons blame Katrina on Bush...some morons blame it on gays. Chaulk it up to the usual idiotic suspects and move on.

To be honest I don't see where he says Katrina is gays fault as it appears he just shows examples of what he thinks is America destroying itself...but I wouldn't put it past him to believe it.
;D just for the record , I dont accuse all christians of this , only a select few , the only eason this was posted is 2 right wing nut jobs were starting the Dems blame Bush for Hurricane crap .........I just thought I would show that they was talking out of their ass ............. in another thread I gave mad Props to alot of Churchs that were getting in and helping when the goverment was sitting on their ass .......... Most Christians have a good thing going , it is only a select few that give the bad image ..........

[Rascal]

;D just for the record , I dont accuse all christians of this , only a select few , the only eason this was posted is 2 right wing nut jobs were starting the Dems blame Bush for Hurricane crap .........I just thought I would show that they was talking out of their ass ............. in another thread I gave mad Props to alot of Churchs that were getting in and helping when the goverment was sitting on their ass .......... Most Christians have a good thing going , it is only a select few that give the bad image ..........

I figured you were trying to make a point with somebody.

Yeap. That last sentence can be applied to a lot of organizations/groups/etc.

[Spider]

I figured you were trying to make a point with somebody.

Yeap. That last sentence can be applied to a lot of organizations/groups/etc.
;D sure does .....

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

A God with whom I am not familiar

September 5, 2005—This is an open letter to the man sitting behind me at La Paz the other day, in Nashville, at lunchtime, with the Brooks Brothers shirt:

You don't know me. But I know you.

I watched you as you held hands with your tablemates at the restaurant where we both ate this afternoon. I listened as you prayed, and thanked God for the food you were about to eat, and for your own safety, several hundred miles away from the unfolding catastrophe in New Orleans.

You blessed your chimichanga in the name of Jesus Christ, and then proceeded to spend the better part of your meal—and mine, since I was too near your table to avoid hearing every word—morally scolding the people of that devastated city, heaping scorn on them for not heeding the warnings to leave before disaster struck. Then you attacked them—all of them, without distinction it seemed—for the behavior of a relative handful: those who have looted items like guns, or big screen TVs.

I heard you ask, amid the din of your colleagues "Amens," why it was that instead of pitching in to help their fellow Americans, the people of New Orleans instead—again, all of them in your mind—chose to steal and shoot at relief helicopters.

I watched you wipe salsa from the corners of your mouth, as you nodded agreement to the statement of one of your friends, sitting to your right, her hair neatly coiffed, her makeup flawless, her jewelry sparkling. When you asked, rhetorically, why it was that people were so much more decent amid the tragedy of 9–11, as compared to the aftermath of Katrina, she had offered her response, but only after apologizing for what she admitted was going to sound harsh.

"Well," Buffy explained. "It's probably because in New Orleans, it seems to be mostly poor people, and you know, they just don't have the same regard."

She then added that police should shoot the looters, and should have done so from the beginning, so as to send a message to the rest that theft would not be tolerated. You, who had just thanked Jesus for your chips and guacamole, said you agreed. They should be shot. Praise the Lord.

Your God is one with whom I am not familiar.

Two thoughts.

First, it is a very fortunate thing for you, and likely for me, that my two young children were with me as I sat there, choking back fish tacos and my own seething rage, listening to you pontificate about **** you know nothing about.

Have you ever even been to New Orleans?

And no, by that I don't mean the New Orleans of your company's sales conference. I don,t mean Emeril's New Orleans, or the New Orleans of Uptown Mardi Gras parties.

I mean the New Orleans that is buried as if it were Atlantis, in places like the lower 9th ward: 98 percent black, 40 percent poor, where bodies are floating down the street, flowing with the water as it seeks its own level. Have you met the people from that New Orleans? The New Orleans that is dying as I write this, and as you order another sweet tea?

I didn't think so.

Your God—the one to whom you prayed today, and likely do before every meal, because this gesture proves what a good Christian you are—is one with whom I am not familiar.

Your God is one who you sincerely believe gives a flying **** about your lunch. Your God is one who you seem to believe watches over you and blesses you, and brings good tidings your way, while simultaneously letting thousands of people watch their homes be destroyed, and perhaps ten thousand or more die, many of them in the streets for lack of water or food.

Did you ever stop to think just what a rancid asshole such a God would have to be, such that he would take care of the likes of you, while letting babies die in their mother's arms, and old people in wheelchairs, at the foot of Canal Street?

Your God is one with whom I am not familiar.

But no, it isn't God who's the asshole here, Skip (or Brad, or Braxton, or whatever your name is).

God doesn't feed you, and it isn't God that kept me from turning around and beating your lily white privileged ass today either.

God has nothing to do with it.

God doesn't care who wins the Super Bowl.

God doesn't help anyone win an Academy Award.

God didn't get you your last raise, or your SUV.

And if God is even half as tired as I am of having to listen to self-righteous bastards like you blame the victims of this nightmare for their fate, then you had best eat slowly from this point forward.

Why didn't they evacuate like they were told?

Are you serious?

There are 100,000 people in that city without cars. Folks who are too poor to own their own vehicle, and who rely on public transportation every day. I know this might shock you. They don,t have a Hummer2, or whatever gas-guzzling piece of crap you either already own or probably are saving up for.

And no, they didn't just choose not to own a car because the buses are so gosh-darned efficient and great, as Rush Limbaugh implied yesterday, and as you likely heard, since you're the kind of person who hangs on the every word of such bloviating hacks as these.

Why did they loot?

Are you serious?

People are dying, in the streets, on live television. Fathers and mothers are watching their baby's eyes bulge in their skulls from dehydration, and you are begrudging them some Goddamned candy bars, diapers and water?

If anything the poor of New Orleans have exercised restraint.

Maybe you didn't know it, but the people of that city with whom you likely identify—the wealthy white folks of Uptown—were barely touched by this storm. Yeah, I guess God was watching over them: protecting them, and rewarding them for their faith and superior morality. If the folks downtown who are waiting desperately for their government to send help—a government whose resources have been stretched thin by a war that I'm sure you support, because you love freedom and democracy—were half as crazed as you think, they'd march down St. Charles Avenue right now and burn every mansion in sight. That they aren't doing so suggests a decency and compassion for their fellow man and woman that sadly people like you lack.

Can you even imagine what you would do in their place?

Can you imagine what would happen if it were well-off white folks stranded like this without buses to get them out, without nourishment, without hope?

Putting aside the absurdity of the imagery—after all, such folks always have the means to seek safety, or the money to rebuild, or the political significance to ensure a much speedier response for their concerns—can you just imagine?

Can you imagine what would happen if the pampered, overfed corporate class, which complains about taxes taking a third of their bloated incomes, had to sit in the hot sun for four, going on five days? Without a Margarita or hotel swimming pool to comfort them I mean?

Oh, and please, I know. I'm stereotyping you. Imagine that. I've assumed, based only on your words, what kind of person you are, even though I suppose I could be wrong. How does that feel Biff? Hurt your feelings? So sorry. But hey, at least my stereotypes of you aren't deadly. They won't effect your life one bit, unlike the ones you carry around with you and display within earshot of people like me, supposing that no one could possibly disagree.

But I'm not wrong am I Chip? I know you. I see people like you all the time, in airports, in business suits, on their lunch breaks. People who will take advantage of any opportunity to ratify and reify their pre-existing prejudices towards the poor, towards black folks. You see the same three video loops of the same dozen or so looters on Fox News and you conclude that poor black people are crazy, immoral, criminal.

You, or others quite a bit like you, are the ones posting messages on chat room boards, calling looters sub-human "vermin," "scum," or "cockroaches." I heard you use the word "animals" three times today: you and that woman across from you—what was her name? Skyler?

What was it you said as you scooped the last bite of black beans and rice into your eager mouth? Like zoo animals? Yes, I think that was it.

Well, Chuck, it's a free country, and so you certainly have the right I suppose to continue lecturing the poor, in between checking your Blackberry and dropping the kids off at soccer practice. If you want to believe that the poor of New Orleans are immoral and greedy, and unworthy of support at a time like this—or somehow more in need of your scolding than whatever donation you might make to a relief fund—so be it.

But let's leave God out of it, shall we? All of it.

Your God is one with whom I am not familiar, and I'd prefer to keep it that way.

By Tim Wise

http://www.onlinejournal.com/Commentary/090505Wise/090505wise.html

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Malignant hate hiding behind religion

August 31, 2005—With every passing day, the leaders of the Christian Right become more unhinged and increasingly violent in their rhetoric. Pat Robertson's call to assassinate—and yes, Pat, even the Christian press confirms you did use the word "assassinate"—Venezuela's president was big news, except in the Bush administration where it was largely ignored and/or excused. But even Robertson has to strive to match the pure hate the Rev. Lou Sheldon vomits forth daily.

http://onlinejournal.com/TheocracyAlert/html/083105seesholtz.html

http://headlines.agapepress.org/archive/8/252005b.asp

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/24/politics/24robertson.html?th&emc=th

[epicSocialism4tw]

Malignant hate hiding behind religion

August 31, 2005—With every passing day, the leaders of the Christian Right become more unhinged and increasingly violent in their rhetoric. Pat Robertson's call to assassinate—and yes, Pat, even the Christian press confirms you did use the word "assassinate"—Venezuela's president was big news, except in the Bush administration where it was largely ignored and/or excused. But even Robertson has to strive to match the pure hate the Rev. Lou Sheldon vomits forth daily.

http://onlinejournal.com/TheocracyAlert/html/083105seesholtz.html

http://headlines.agapepress.org/archive/8/252005b.asp

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/24/politics/24robertson.html?th&emc=th

Is this article not strikingly similar to racist hate speech?

This time it is by journalists against Christianity.

The article paints Christians with a broad brush saying that Christians have malicious motives behind every venture. As if Christians secretly hate everyone and are just waiting to impede into your lives to interject their hate.

Christians study the Bible and use it as their guide for living. Here is a pertinent excerpt:

1 Timothy 6:3-7 (New International Version)

3If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, 4he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions 5and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.
6But godliness with contentment is great gain. 7For we brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Post an article exposing right-wing religious hypocrisy and look who jumps.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Post an article exposing right-wing religious hypocrisy and look who jumps.


I never said that there wasnt hypocrisy in Christianity. In its nature, its a very human endeavor which is fraught with error. The goal is to be something closer to what Christians think that God wants them to be, which is to be like Yeshua of Nazareth. Humans have behavioral errors of all sorts and people have different devotions to Christian teaching and its implementation into their lives.

Nothing is exposed in this article persay, but something sure was boldened. That was that Christians are collectively scheming to sadisticly implement a hate-mongered dominance over the general populace. Some would view this as inflammatory hate speech. There is an intent in the proposition of the article here, and it is to defame the institution of Christianity as a stupid, hateful, forceful, domineering, violent, aggressive corporation. This is simply not true. I invite you to identify and expose popular doctrine and exegesis that would say otherwise.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

That was that Christians are collectively scheming to sadisticly implement a hate-mongered dominance over the general populace. Some would view this as inflammatory hate speech.

The article says, accurately, "leaders of the Christian right" - not "Christians collectively."

There is an intent in the proposition of the article here, and it is to defame the institution of Christianity as a stupid, hateful, forceful, domineering, violent, aggressive corporation.

No "intent to defame" is necessary - the leaders of the movement are already doing a thorough job of defaming and shaming themselves and their acolytes.

[epicSocialism4tw]

The article says, accurately, "leaders of the Christian right" - not "Christians collectively."



No "intent to defame" is necessary - the leaders of the movement are already doing a thorough job of defaming and shaming themselves and their acolytes.


Your title paints Christianity and all religions (giving inference to radical Muslims) as hate mongers.

"The Christian Right" refers to Christians in America. There is no definition that would delineate politically active leaders such as Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Pat Robertson, Robert Tilton, etc, from socially active leaders like Tillie Burgin, Mother Theresa, St Francis of Asisi, or St. Augustine who walk (or walked) the talk in their public life as well as their personal life.

You may be doing this unintentionally, but it is done nonetheless.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

"The Christian Right" refers to Christians in America.

This is precisely the fallacy that dooms your entire argument.

"The Christian right" does not = "Christians in America."

In other words, people like you and your buddy Pat Robertson don't represent "Christians in America," not all of whom are conservative right-wingers who believe God chose Disaster Boy to lead America.

[epicSocialism4tw]

This is precisely the fallacy that dooms your entire argument.

"The Christian right" does not = "Christians in America."

In other words, people like you and your buddy Pat Robertson don't represent "Christians in America," not all of whom are conservative right-wingers who believe God chose Disaster Boy to lead America.


Sure...I know that that is what you meant, but that is not necessarily what the media means. Its a blanket term that they can use to defame Christians as a whole. Why wouldnt they want that? It is in their interest. It has the potential to give the press more influence and to minimize social philosophical opposition.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Its a blanket term that they can use to defame Christians as a whole.

Since the articles in question do not refer to Xians as a whole, this is not a true statement.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Since the articles in question do not refer to Xians as a whole, this is not a true statement.

These are associative terms...Christians, Christian right, Pat Robertson, pro-life, family values, pro-heterosexual marriage within the church, etc...

They are terms that are viewed as a package to the majority of readers that are uneducated on what the body of Christianity is like. They are definitive terms that associate into a conglomerate general representative ideal.

There are no opposing ideas given in the articles from other wings of Christianity.

[Spider]

intersting debate , I will add this , I see 2 christians sects out there right now ......
1 sect is the groupd I have refered to as the Taliban christian .......
2. Every other christian

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

They are terms that are viewed as a package to the majority of readers that are uneducated on what the body of Christianity is like.


And not without justification, given the immoral and un-Christian things so many high-profile "Christians" do in the name of Christ.

And blaming the "liberal media" for Christianity's image problems only makes matters worse for Christians.

[ant1999e]

intersting debate , I will add this , I see 2 christians sects out there right now ......
1 sect is the groupd I have refered to as the Taliban christian .......
2. Every other christian

Taliban christians. :giggle:

[Spider]

Taliban christians. :giggle:
SHould have been here when I first said Taliban Christians ... the flack I caught off of that was staggering......... I see a big difference in the taliban christians , and the christian next doo type .......

[errand]

intersting debate , I will add this , I see 2 christians sects out there right now ......
1 sect is the groupd I have refered to as the Taliban christian .......
2. Every other christian

A non-believer trying to tell people what Christianity is about. Go figure.....

In Spider's eyes those who pick and choose the parts of the Bible they want to believe in, and ignore the rest are "real Christians". Those who believe you cannot choose which part of God's word you can follow are "Taliban Christians"....

...or better yet, if you come into here and defend your belief in God, your a "Taliban Christian".

[epicSocialism4tw]

intersting debate , I will add this , I see 2 christians sects out there right now ......
1 sect is the groupd I have refered to as the Taliban christian .......
2. Every other christian


There is a tough situation nationally for Christians and its putting pressure on some of the national leaders to make tough decisions. Some of the wrong ones have made the most public declarations.

Cultural Christians are seeing their communities changed in ways that they dont want in mandates from the federal government. In predominantly Christian local governments, city leaders are being challenged to adopt secularist philosophy in their societies, and this is causing a need by Cultural Christians to interject themselves into the political process and make their voices heard too. Things prayer in schools, textbook content, abortion, gay marriage, and other controversial issues are popping up with increasing regularity.

It seems as though the cultural Christians will fight back for their traditional rights, and it is their right to do that under the republic. Local governments rule local people and indigenous people are not the same nationwide.

I say cultural Christians and would like to define that term as a person who associates themselves with the ideals professed in exegesis of the Christian Bible and with the behaviors and rituals consistent with a society that has included Christian philosophy as a major contributor to their own popular philosophy. They are known to know the right answers to Bible questions, but do not implement them willingly into much of their personal life.

[Spider]

A non-believer trying to tell people what Christianity is about. Go figure.....
Guess what group I put you in .........

In Spider's eyes those who pick and choose the parts of the Bible they want to believe in, and ignore the rest are "real Christians". Those who believe you cannot choose which part of God's word you can follow are "Taliban Christians"....
LOL is that so , I judge actions more the scripture , why do you think I call you a hypocrit all the time ?

...or better yet, if you come into here and defend your belief in God, your a "Taliban Christian".
Not at all , it is your takes is why I call you a Taliban Christian ...... but then you and me have been over this ........

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

A non-believer trying to tell people what Christianity is about. Go figure.....

A guy who professes to be a "Christian" but whose "kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out" rhetoric runs contrary to Christ's teachings at every turn trying to tell others what Christianity is all about.

Go figure...

[Spider]

There is a tough situation nationally for Christians and its putting pressure on some of the national leaders to make tough decisions. Some of the wrong ones have made the most public declarations.
Like Fred Phelps , Falwel , Roberston .......

Cultural Christians are seeing their communities changed in ways that they dont want in mandates from the federal government. In predominantly Christian local governments, city leaders are being challenged to adopt secularist philosophy in their societies, and this is causing a need by Cultural Christians to interject themselves into the political process and make their voices heard too. Things prayer in schools, textbook content, abortion, gay marriage, and other controversial issues are popping up with increasing regularity.
there is a fine line between practicing your faith , and forcing others to march ot the same drummer , as for prayer in school , Kid can pray , just dont expect everyone else to do it ...... Kid can sit at his desk pray all he wants ...... as for making society march to the same drummer wont happen queers dont see that they are doing wrong , my siggestion to those Christians is worry about your own back yard , you believe in a God , he will handle the situation when the time comes .......

It seems as though the cultural Christians will fight back for their traditional rights, and it is their right to do that under the republic. Local governments rule local people and indigenous people are not the same nationwide. No seeming to it , No one has taken away their rights , we just stopped them from forcing it on us .........

I say cultural Christians and would like to define that term as a person who associates themselves with the ideals professed in exegesis of the Christian Bible and with the behaviors and rituals consistent with a society that has included Christian philosophy as a major contributor to their own popular philosophy. They are known to know the right answers to Bible questions, but do not implement them willingly into much of their personal life.
Thats it , what you do in personal life is ok by me , just dont expect me to practice your religion .That is my biggest beef with alot of Christians , I get told I am going to hell ....Thats fine leave me alone , if you think I ma going to hell so be it , dont try to change me , wont fit into a cookie cutter

[Spider]

A guy who professes to be a "Christian" but whose "kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out" rhetoric runs contrary to Christ's teachings at every turn trying to tell others what Christianity is all about.

Go figure...
;D check out the insult thread , I have had Errand more then once throw out Christian values , He has cursed , and lied ...... funny stuff , and he did it all in anger .......

[TheDave]

People are free to believe what they want to believe... I just wish more of them would take notice of that word believe. Christianity is your particular belief of the way things are... there are other beliefs and in my opinion all of them have just as much a chance of being correct. Too many times i see religion as an excuse used to hate/ discriminate/ and push agendas onto others... That is the part that drives me nuts. The Christian based movement of today has an unbelievable amount of power. An example that is near to my heart is the fight over teaching evolution/ID in school. Regardless of what any of us believe (I'm definitely not trying to re-kick this dead horse) but certain groups of Christians have accumulated the power needed to push a theory that has 0 scientific evidence behind it and force it's acceptance as a scientific alternative. Currently we are holding back some of the most incredible research in the history of man because someone has decided that a 6 cell zygote is a human life. Never mind that same life is currently created and expelled daily at your local neighborhood fertility clinic.

Again I'm not trying to start a pissing match here but with great influence comes an equal amount of scrutiny. When you are deciding mans future based on beliefs, then you better be right. When some of these all mighty figure heads with their seemingly endless herds of minions at their side and the Word of God in their hand say some of the ridiculous things that they say it makes me wonder if we should be listening to them at all...

[Spider]

People are free to believe what they want to believe... I just wish more of them would take notice of that word believe. Christianity is your particular belief of the way things are... there are other beliefs and in my opinion all of them have just as much a chance of being correct. Too many times i see religion as an excuse used to hate/ discriminate/ and push agendas onto others... That is the part that drives me nuts. The Christian based movement of today has an unbelievable amount of power. An example that is near to my heart is the fight over teaching evolution/ID in school. Regardless of what any of us believe (I'm definitely not trying to re-kick this dead horse) but certain groups of Christians have accumulated the power needed to push a theory that has 0 scientific evidence behind it and force it's acceptance as a scientific alternative. Currently we are holding back some of the most incredible research in the history of man because someone has decided that a 6 cell zygote is a human life. Never mind that same life is currently created and expelled daily at your local neighborhood fertility clinic.

Again I'm not trying to start a pissing match here but with great influence comes an equal amount of scrutiny. When you are deciding mans future based on beliefs, then you better be right. When some of these all mighty figure heads with their seemingly endless herds of minions at their side and the Word of God in their hand say some of the ridiculous things that they say it makes me wonder if we should be listening to them at all...

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to TheDave again.

[errand]

And not without justification, given the immoral and un-Christian things so many high-profile "Christians" do in the name of Christ.

And blaming the "liberal media" for Christianity's image problems only makes matters worse for Christians.


Christianity has it's share of bad apples...nobody ever said they didn't. For every one that maintains his moral clarity there are those who have fallen into the clutches of sin.

The problem you evidently have is you think Christians are saved, and then are going to lead perfect lives....just like people can't just quit smoking overnight, or drinking or doing drugs overnight...neither can man stop sinning.

Christians struggle with their sins all the time...the difference is they now have God to pray to and ask for strength to resist temptation, God to pray to to give them wisdom to make the right decision, and God to pray to for forgiveness if they do subcumb to sin.

On this board and usually by the same 2-3 people like you, the Dave, and Spider...Christianity is the only religion that doesn't get a pass. Islam gets a pass, despite there being quite a few Muslims cutting heads off and murdering people every day.

Funny, but while Christianity gets blasted by the likes of you three, there are still Christians who will speak out against those who twist our faith (very few Christians believed Eric Rudolph was right in blowing up abortion clinics despite being against abortion)....but Islam which has yet to denounce any of the terrorist acts of their brethren (like destroying the WTC, and cutting off the heads of hostages), always gets a pass by you guys on the left.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Spider - on the "forcing values on us" comment...

Someone is going to force their values on you. Its the nature of law in an organized society. Granted, prayer led by important figures in school does put a tangible and varied amount of pressure on students when they are young, the converse policy encourages people who would like to pray to do it on their own time and teaches kids that there is not a place for it in public, which is dangerous. This leads to the marginalization of religion. Children view their school environment as "the way it is" in the world. I would just go so far as to say that it is dangerous to remove religion from the public arena. Public school is the only public arena that most kids know.

[Spider]

On this board and usually by the same 2-3 people like you, the Dave, and Spider...Christianity is the only religion that doesn't get a pass. Islam gets a pass, despite there being quite a few Muslims cutting heads off and murdering people every day.
.
See this is why I call you names , your lack of Understanding , you know what , Islam as far as I can see is filled with alot of Scum , in fact I have been called a racist , I can live with that , But I always figured Christians to be on a higher level , thus expect more out of them , and then bam you come along and lower the expectation level a few bars ..........
It is all about being above all of that ..............

[TheDave]

See this is why I call you names , your lack of Understanding , you know what , Islam as far as I can see is filled with alot of Scum , in fact I have been called a racist , I can live with that , But I always figured Christians to be on a higher level , thus expect more out of them , and then bam you come along and lower the expectation level a few bars ..........
It is all about being above all of that ..............

hey at least i got mentioned in one of his posts...:)

[Spider]

Spider - on the "forcing values on us" comment...

Someone is going to force their values on you. Its the nature of law in an organized society. Granted, prayer led by important figures in school does put a tangible and varied amount of pressure on students when they are young, the converse policy encourages people who would like to pray to do it on their own time and teaches kids that there is not a place for it in public, which is dangerous. This leads to the marginalization of religion. Children view their school environment as "the way it is" in the world. I would just go so far as to say that it is dangerous to remove religion from the public arena. Public school is the only public arena that most kids know.
Wel lwe dont see eye to eye on this , I am a non believer , but My Daughter is a believer , I dont stand in her way , nor do I throw my views on her , if fullfilling a spirtiual need is what makes her happy more power to her , that is what Sunday school is for ...... Public School I want my Kids to get an education .. not a sermon

[Spider]

hey at least i got mentioned in one of his posts...:)
Moving up Bro ;D

[epicSocialism4tw]

Wel lwe dont see eye to eye on this , I am a non believer , but My Daughter is a believer , I dont stand in her way , nor do I throw my views on her , if fullfilling a spirtiual need is what makes her happy more power to her , that is what Sunday school is for ...... Public School I want my Kids to get an education .. not a sermon


Im not talking about a sermon at all. Im basically saying that the minute before class you are allowed to pray if you want to and with other kids. Also, if a student asks a teacher about their religion, the teacher can tell them about it without getting fired. Also, if a teacher wants to wear a cross pin or shirt or give possible opposing cosmologies in science, she can do that without getting fired.

Also of relevance...the Dave mentioned cosmology in a post above. You can be a christian and believe in evolution. You just cant let science answer the "why" question and let it answer the "how" question. The "how" questions are the only ones that science can answer. This leaves room for legit questions that need to be answered by young students. "Why?" This is where the intelligent design cosmology comes in. With the data that we have, this would not be in contrast to what we have in science. Just look at the complexity of cell metabolism! Its beautiful like a great work of art.

[errand]

A guy who professes to be a "Christian" but whose "kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out" rhetoric runs contrary to Christ's teachings at every turn trying to tell others what Christianity is all about.

Go figure...


Your not producing anything earth shattering around here....gee guess what, a Christian isn't perfect and sometimes he'll do things God says he shouldn't. Well stop the presses.....

Sure I say some things that run contrary to God's word. I do my best not to...but as a human being it happens. If you think that makes me some kind of hypocrite, that's fine. You have the right to believe that.

Again..as a Christian, I'm not perfect. God created only one perfect being...and that was His son Jesus Christ. I'm commanded by God to forgive my enemies...even Osama bin Laden.

I struggle with that one quite a bit, personally....but I think I'd rather kill him and ask God for forgiveness than forgive Osama for his terrorist acts. That might cost me the key to heaven (as I've said I cannot pick and choose which part of the bibble I want to follow)....perhaps later in life I can truly forgive those that have angered me....including people like you.

I've said all along that Christians are not perfect, and struggle with sin. Show me where I said Christians are perfect. I'm sure it's somewhere in the same threads that contained all those racial and ethnic slurs I've allegedly hurled towards you

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

On this board and usually by the same 2-3 people like you, the Dave, and Spider...Christianity is the only religion that doesn't get a pass. Islam gets a pass, despite there being quite a few Muslims cutting heads off and murdering people every day.

Throughout history, both Christians and Muslims have engaged in the sort of behaviors you are describing here. Muslims don't own the patent on torture, cruelty, religious persecution, etc.

And if you were to read enough of my takes on religion, you would see that I don't have much use for organized religion in general - no matter what the tradition.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Your not producing anything earth shattering around here....gee guess what, a Christian isn't perfect and sometimes he'll do things God says he shouldn't. Well stop the presses.....

Sure I say some things that run contrary to God's word. I do my best not to...but as a human being it happens. If you think that makes me some kind of hypocrite, that's fine. You have the right to believe that.

Again..as a Christian, I'm not perfect. God created only one perfect being...and that was His son Jesus Christ. I'm commanded by God to forgive my enemies...even Osama bin Laden.

I struggle with that one quite a bit, personally....but I think I'd rather kill him and ask God for forgiveness than forgive Osama for his terrorist acts. That might cost me the key to heaven (as I've said I cannot pick and choose which part of the bibble I want to follow)....perhaps later in life I can truly forgive those that have angered me....including people like you.

I've said all along that Christians are not perfect, and struggle with sin. Show me where I said Christians are perfect. I'm sure it's somewhere in the same threads that contained all those racial and ethnic slurs I've allegedly hurled towards you


Well, if this post is any indication, your religious beliefs seem to have some humanizing effect on you, so I guess that's a good thing.

[errand]

See this is why I call you names , your lack of Understanding , you know what , Islam as far as I can see is filled with alot of Scum , in fact I have been called a racist , I can live with that , But I always figured Christians to be on a higher level , thus expect more out of them , and then bam you come along and lower the expectation level a few bars ..........
It is all about being above all of that ..............

.....so you admit you hold Christians to a high level than any other religion. We're human too spider, not sure if you relaize that.

Your daughter is a believer, right? so tell us, what seperates her from a non-believer?

Your daughter messed in her diapers like a non-believer did at age 1.

She'll have sexual desires at age 16 (maybe earlier) like a non-believer.

She might have a crush on some loser like a non-believer.

She might bring home a bad grade or two like a non-believer does.

She'll get married and might even get divorced like non-believers do.

The difference is she believes that her failures will be forgiven with no record being kept...and that she can right whatever wrongs she has committed, and that her life has a meaning, and a purpose.

Trust me, your daughter as a believer will turn out better than even you believe thanks to her faith.

[errand]

Throughout history, both Christians and Muslims have engaged in the sort of behaviors you are describing here. Muslims don't own the patent on torture, cruelty, religious persecution, etc.

And if you were to read enough of my takes on religion, you would see that I don't have much use for organized religion in general - no matter what the tradition.

OK, your not down with organized religion, that's fine.....

...so why are you only blasting those who believe in Jesus Christ? I've not read one time where you have blasted those who believe in Allah, or Buddah, or SpongeBob Squarepants...if so, please point us in the direction of those posts where you disparaged those faiths.

[Spider]

.....so you admit you hold Christians to a high level than any other religion. We're human too spider, not sure if you relaize that.
Of course I hold you to a higher standard , you live in a better country , better education , better life , besides it is you christians and you unrelentless preaching about your faith .......

Your daughter is a believer, right? so tell us, what seperates her from a non-believer?
What sepaerates her is the path she took , she wants to follow that life style more power to her

Your daughter messed in her diapers like a non-believer did at age 1. Can we leave my daughters bathroom habits out of this ?

She'll have sexual desires at age 16 (maybe earlier) like a non-believer. but isnt her faith supposed to help her through this ? if not then what good is a religion that wont help you over come worldy temptations ?

She might have a crush on some loser like a non-believer. as long as she doesnt drag home some hypocrit ......

She might bring home a bad grade or two like a non-believer does.
and doesnt a believer pray for better grades ?

She'll get married and might even get divorced like non-believers do.
or she may become a nun ...... then what ?

The difference is she believes that her failures will be forgiven with no record being kept...and that she can right whatever wrongs she has committed, and that her life has a meaning, and a purpose.
I see so she is a believer she shouldnt strive to avoid temptation cause all is forgiven , and the cow jumped over the moon and all believers lived happlier ever after ......... No need for personal accountibilty ..... Just blame it o nthe demons .........

Trust me, your daughter as a believer will turn out better than even you believe thanks to her faith.
If you say so , but I hope she isnt a hypocrit .........you know the kind I talk about

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

OK, your not down with organized religion, that's fine.....

...so why are you only blasting those who believe in Jesus Christ? I've not read one time where you have blasted those who believe in Allah, or Buddah, or SpongeBob Squarepants...if so, please point us in the direction of those posts where you disparaged those faiths.

I don't blast anyone for "believing in Jesus Christ" - I blast the terrible things so many hypocrites, bigots, and haters do in Christ's name.

After 9/11, I blasted the atrocity a group of suicide hijackers committed in the name of their religion, and I repeatedly called for Bin Laden's (and every al Qaeda member's) head on a pike. Then Bush decided to drop the pursuit of those people in order to attack a country that had no part in the aforementioned atrocity and was no threat to America.

[24champ]

I haven't heard anyone blame Bush for the hurricane, but I've heard a lot of people (not just Democrats, by any stretch) blame Bush for his failure to respond to the disaster in a timely manner - the result of which was a lot of unnecessary deaths.

"Unnecessary deaths" and "Bush" are almost becoming synonymous.

yeah dont hold the state goverment accountable just go for the guy you hate... :captain: BTW when did Blanco ask for help?

[RunByDesign]

The difference is she believes that her failures will be forgiven with no record being kept...and that she can right whatever wrongs she has committed, and that her life has a meaning, and a purpose.

Trust me, your daughter as a believer will turn out better than even you believe thanks to her faith.

Your insinuation that only a "believer" can lead a purpose-driven and "fulfilled" life are incredibly narrow-minded and short-sighted.

The only kind of person that this kind of thinking would apply to is one without respect and love for ones' self.

To suggest that one has to accept a popularised notion of a diety to have self-worth, is absurd.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

BTW when did Blanco ask for help?

Blanco’s letter requesting Emergency aid under the Stafford Act, August 27th:

http://www.bayoubuzz.com/articles.aspx?aid=4843

President Bush legally puts the ball in Chertoff and Howard’s court, August 27th:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/08/20050827-1.htm

Which means, as of August 27th, it was all Homeland Security/FEMA, all the way to the bank:

In the event of a terrorist attack, natural disaster or other large-scale emergency, the Department of Homeland Security will assume primary responsibility on March 1st for ensuring that emergency response professionals are prepared for any situation. This will entail providing a coordinated, comprehensive federal response to any large-scale crisis and mounting a swift and effective recovery effort. The new Department will also prioritize the important issue of citizen preparedness. Educating America's families on how best to prepare their homes for a disaster and tips for citizens on how to respond in a crisis will be given special attention at DHS.

http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/theme_home2.jsp

Slow enough for you?

[24champ]

<a href="http://imageshack.us"><img src="http://img367.imageshack.us/img367/228/40765970buses9dg.jpg" border="0" width="203" alt="Image Hosted by ImageShack.us" /></a>

THANKS BLANCO! YOU REALLY ARE A HERO!

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

THANKS BLANCO! YOU REALLY ARE A HERO!

Don't thank her - thank Diebold Boy.

The ball was in his court.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Weighing in on this issue usually results in long protracted back and forth circular debates but I would like to comment on a couple of things related to the original topic, the statements by Rick Scarborough. This wil be my ONLY comment on this issue.
I've been stunned at how long it took a prominent member of the Christian right to blame the destruction wrought by Hurricane Katrina on America's cultural decadence and immorality.
I have essentially only one comment.

There needs to be a better understanding of who and what the "Christian Right" actually is.

Some mistakenly identify the political movement identified as the "Christian Right" as synonomous with Christianity in general. In fact, Christianity in America essentially breaks down into 6 broad subcultural groups at this time in our history, only one of which is heavily involved in the CR movement. There are also dozens of smaller subcultures outside these groups and hundreds of sub-sub-cultural movements within these 6 larger caregories. They are:

1) Roman Catholics (theologically diverse, politically diverse)
2) Mainline Protestants (theologically and politically liberal)
3) White Evangelicals (theologically and politically conservative)
4) Black Evangelicals (theologically conservative, politically liberal)
5) Charismatics (theologically conservative, politically diverse)
6) Fundamentalists (theologically conservative, politically conservative)

There are cross over factors here as well. Blacks, for example, regardless of religious beliefs, tend to be politically liberal and exist in sizeable numbers within the Charismatic movement as well as evangelicalism, Roman Catholics political views tend to mirror their theological perspectives...etc. But in general, these 6 categories tend to broadly define Christianity in America in terms of their political affiliations. This is important to understand.

By far the largest single group are Roman Catholics (65 million), who make up 23% of the US population, 4 times larger than the next largest denomination (Southern Baptists). Episcopalians are very similiar to Catholics as well. George W. Bush is Episcopal. Some Catholics sympathize with Christian Right cultural/political views, most notably on issues like abortion and gay rights. How large their numbers are is debateable but Catholics overall have been moving towards the political right of center for about 25 years. Most are not highly active in the CR movement however, though conservative Catholic leadership often is outspoken and favorable towards some CR views.

Mainline Protestants numbers are dropping and have been doing so for a generation. Traditional Protestant denominations like Lutherans, Methodists and Presbyterians are predominately theologically liberal, though significant numbers of theologically conservative evangelical type Protestant churches exist in these denominations, mostly in the south. These are historically middle class people, college educated and fairly involved politically.

White Evangelicals represent the fastest growing group of US Christians. Comprised of a variety of groups, Bible churches, Southern Baptists, some Charismatics and conservative Protestant groups, they are largely college educated, middle class and vote conservatively. This represents a reversal of trends that roughly mirrors the onset of of the US culture wars over the last 25 years, much like Catholics have moved to the right of center politically. A relatively small minority of these people are connected with the Christian Right in terms of political action, though more may sympathize with some of the CR's politcal ideals, usually concerns about abortion and other moral issues. They are similiar to Catholics in this respect.

Black Evangelicals are overwhelmingly politically liberal. Black evangelical churches, both evangelical and charismatic, are by far the most politically active and aggressive, even more so than the Christian Right. They differ in this respect from the CR both in political ideology and involvement. While churches within the CR tend to attempt to separate their political involvement from their churches daily functins by "outsourcing" political action through non-church or para-church organizations (Focus on the Family for example), black churches and ministers actually serve as the primary political power base for black politicians (and some white liberals who are politically active in cooperation with them). Ironically, the most notable black political activist (Jesse Jackson) is not evangelical but theologically liberal, roughly coresponding to a mainline protestant view.

Charismatics are lesser players within the CR movement but several high profile charismatic leaders are major icons or heavily involved in the CR, notably Pat Robertson and James Robinson. For this reason, charismatics are often lumped in with the CR, when in fact comparatively few charismatic/Pentecostal churches are actively involved politically in CR activity, though they may agree philosophically with their political views, especially on abortion and gay rights. They tend to be middle to lower middle class and slightly less educated than evangelicals.

Fundamentalists are by far the most heavily involved churches in the CR movement, with Jerry Fallwell the highest profile figure. They are definitely the most theologically and politically conservative and easily the most politically active. They are somewhat less likely to be college eduated or middle class than evangelicals. They are also the smallest of these groups. They reached their zenith in terms of raw numbers in the early 80's and have been declining at a steady rate since then, largely due to generational leadership growing old and dying off without adequate replacements assuming control or churches attempting to appeal to younger people. Many former fundamentalists left these churches because of frustration with the heavy involvement in politics or rigid separation from other Christians over theological and cultural issues and migrated to evangelical or charismatic churches instead.

Why is any of this important? It's important because most of the controversy over CR issues eminates from the fact that people fail to take these differences into consideration. I'll use my own circumstances to illustrate. See if you can determine whether I'm CR or not. My views on 8 controversial issues:

1) Abortion- I'm pro life but support choice for issues of mother's life or rape, belive it's essentially a states rights issue and should not be decided by the Supreme court. I see the so called "anti abortion" movements use of picket signs, etc...as counter productive and support educational efforts instead...also support the rights of parents to be informed up to age 17.

2) School prayer- I support the right of volunary prayer on an individual basis only or for groups of kids who wish to have after school clubs, etc... under freedom of speech rights, and do not support the "moment of silence", organized efforts to produce teacher led "voluntary" prayer, etc...

3) Poltical involvement- I see organized political action for churches as often detracting from the churches main mission, but support their legal rights to be involved in the political process.

4) School sex education- I support it at the 7th grade level and up with alternative "abstinence based" or "opt out" options for parents...also support birth control and STD education but not the distribution of products.

5) Zero tolerance- I strongly do NOT support zero tolerance disciplinary policies for local schools because they remove the power of discretion from local principles and have proven a failure at mitigating behavior.

6) Legalization of drugs- I support the decriminalization, and gradual legalization of marijuana and some classes of drugs for personal use only as well as their government regulation and taxation similiar to alcohol.

7) Gay marriage- I do not support changing the definition of marriage to include same sex partners.

8) Evolution/Creation- I support the "opt out" option for parents who don't wish their kids to be taught evolution. Most people loudly proclaiming the "fact" of evolution have never seriously studied the issue in depth. However, the teaching of creation science/"intelligent design" as mandatory opens the door to direct religious instruction in the public schools so I'm not in favor of that.

As you can see, there is enough variation here that it makes categorization difficult. Such is also the case with most Christian views among the general population. One additional note; many of the so called "radical" views espoused by the CR are also largely held to various degrees or in different combinations by other groups...ie; Catholics, charismatics, black evangelicals and also some non-Christian or non-religious people, especially those in older age brackets. Most of these views are only one generation removed from being considered mainline or at least highly represented among society at large. "Radical"...ie: "outrageous, bizarre, highly unorthodox or unusual, overtly provocative, extreme, dangerous, significantly counter culture"...etc...is a term that should be reserved for skin heads, nazis, totalitarian facists, communists, anarchists,....etc...the term does little to generate dialogue, which is why I find it lacking in credibility.

[SoCalBronco]

Great post, 27. Very educational on the different subgroups. Thanks.

[24champ]

Don't thank her - thank Diebold Boy.

The ball was in his court.
Has anybody seen Ray Nagin? Was Ray Nagin at the Superdome? Was Kathleen Blanco at the Superdome? Were these people there? We saw Rudy everywhere. Yeah, we need a Rudy, fine, but Rudy was not part of federal government and Rudy was not part of any FEMA organization; Rudy was not part of any federal bureaucracy. He was mayor of New York, and when you saw pictures of Rudy on TV he was flanked by the New York police chief and he was flanked by New York fire chief, and he was flanked by New York City officials, and the governor, of course, Pataki was there as well. But you haven't seen that in this circumstance. We also know that President Bush on Sunday begged the governor to get everybody out there, declare an emergency. She said, "No, I need 24 hours to decide."

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Has anybody seen Ray Nagin? Was Ray Nagin at the Superdome? Was Kathleen Blanco at the Superdome? Were these people there? We saw Rudy everywhere. Yeah, we need a Rudy, fine, but Rudy was not part of federal government and Rudy was not part of any FEMA organization; Rudy was not part of any federal bureaucracy. He was mayor of New York, and when you saw pictures of Rudy on TV he was flanked by the New York police chief and he was flanked by New York fire chief, and he was flanked by New York City officials, and the governor, of course, Pataki was there as well. But you haven't seen that in this circumstance. We also know that President Bush on Sunday begged the governor to get everybody out there, declare an emergency. She said, "No, I need 24 hours to decide."

What part of "the Department of Homeland Security will assume primary responsibility" don't you understand?

Blanco’s letter requesting Emergency aid under the Stafford Act, August 27th
http://www.bayoubuzz.com/articles.aspx?aid=4843

President Bush legally puts the ball in Chertoff and Howard’s court, August 27th
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/08/20050827-1.htm

Which means, as of August 27th, it was all Homeland Security/FEMA, all the way to the bank;

In the event of a terrorist attack, natural disaster or other large-scale emergency, the Department of Homeland Security will assume primary responsibility on March 1st for ensuring that emergency response professionals are prepared for any situation. This will entail providing a coordinated, comprehensive federal response to any large-scale crisis and mounting a swift and effective recovery effort. The new Department will also prioritize the important issue of citizen preparedness. Educating America's families on how best to prepare their homes for a disaster and tips for citizens on how to respond in a crisis will be given special attention at DHS.

http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/theme_home2.jsp

Blanco did her part under the Stafford Act. She even followed up on Sunday the 28th asking the President to expedite because Katrina went Category V for a while, and Cheney-all was happening on the DHS end.

DHS/FEMA was briefed about the catastrophic conditions well before landfall.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2002472774_mayfield05.html

Chertoff keeps saying, gosh, we never saw it coming!

[TailgateNut]

We also know that President Bush on Sunday begged the governor to get everybody out there, declare an emergency. She said, "No, I need 24 hours to decide."


LINK?????

[24champ]

As one who has received training by FEMA in emergency management and also training by the Department of Defense in consequence management, I believe that the federal response in New Orleans needs clarification.


Craig Martelle, retired as a major in the U.S. Marine Corps, lives in North Huntingdon. He recently launched the Strategic Outlook Institute, a public-policy organization.


The key to emergency management starts at the local level and expands to the state level. Emergency planning generally does not include any federal guarantees, as there can only be limited ones from the federal level for any local plan. FEMA provides free training, education, assistance and respond in case of an emergency, but the local and state officials run their own emergency management program
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05249/566101.stm

And blanco and the Nagin sat on there hands what a shame....

[24champ]

LINK?????
Thought i posted it on here somewhere before....

After days of blaming the federal officials for not responding quickly enough to the Hurricane Katrina crisis, New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin praised President Bush on Monday - and charged that Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco had delayed federal rescue efforts by 24 hours.

"I'm so happy that the president came down here," Nagin said of Bush's Friday visit to Louisiana in an interview with CNN. "He came down and saw it, and he put a general on the field. His name is General Honore. And when he hit the field, we started to see action."

Story Continues Below


But Nagin had harsh words for his state's leaders, telling CNN: "What the state was doing, I don't frigging know. But I tell you, I am pissed. It wasn't adequate."
The New Orleans Democrat said he urged Bush to meet privately with Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco during the visit. The meeting took place aboard Air Force One, he said.

After reviewing the crisis with Gov. Blanco, Bush summoned Nagin for a private chat - where, according to Nagin, Bush explained: "Mr. Mayor, I offered two options to the governor. I said . . . I was ready to move today. The governor said she needed 24 hours to make a decision."

Reacting to the governor's footdragging, Nagin lamented: "It would have been great if we could have left Air Force One, walked outside, and told the world that we had this all worked out."

"It didn't happen, and more people died."
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/9/5/234033.shtml

[TailgateNut]

Thought i posted it on here somewhere before....

After days of blaming the federal officials for not responding quickly enough to the Hurricane Katrina crisis, New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin praised President Bush on Monday - and charged that Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco had delayed federal rescue efforts by 24 hours.

"I'm so happy that the president came down here," Nagin said of Bush's Friday visit to Louisiana in an interview with CNN. "He came down and saw it, and he put a general on the field. His name is General Honore. And when he hit the field, we started to see action."

Story Continues Below


But Nagin had harsh words for his state's leaders, telling CNN: "What the state was doing, I don't frigging know. But I tell you, I am pissed. It wasn't adequate."
The New Orleans Democrat said he urged Bush to meet privately with Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco during the visit. The meeting took place aboard Air Force One, he said.

After reviewing the crisis with Gov. Blanco, Bush summoned Nagin for a private chat - where, according to Nagin, Bush explained: "Mr. Mayor, I offered two options to the governor. I said . . . I was ready to move today. The governor said she needed 24 hours to make a decision."

Reacting to the governor's footdragging, Nagin lamented: "It would have been great if we could have left Air Force One, walked outside, and told the world that we had this all worked out."

"It didn't happen, and more people died."
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/9/5/234033.shtml


That's not a link, that's like having Rush call me to explain the situation!

[24champ]

That's not a link, that's like having Rush call me to explain the situation!

:giggle: whatever man keep reading the NYT if you like......

[footstepsfrom#27]

Blanco did her part under the Stafford Act. She even followed up on Sunday the 28th asking the President to expedite because Katrina went Category V for a while, and Cheney-all was happening on the DHS end.

DHS/FEMA was briefed about the catastrophic conditions well before landfall.
Correct. These are easily checked facts. It's not a big mystery.

[Atlas]

Sure...I know that that is what you meant, but that is not necessarily what the media means. Its a blanket term that they can use to defame Christians as a whole. Why wouldnt they want that? It is in their interest. It has the potential to give the press more influence and to minimize social philosophical opposition.

There is a huge difference. The Christian right is a radicle form of American Christianity. You might not have known this but there are lots of regular Christians that are democrat. I know it's hard to believe but it's true. The Christian right is far right conservative and basically has Bush in their hip pocket because they got him re elected.

[Atlas]

Thought i posted it on here somewhere before....

After days of blaming the federal officials for not responding quickly enough to the Hurricane Katrina crisis, New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin praised President Bush on Monday - and charged that Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco had delayed federal rescue efforts by 24 hours.

"I'm so happy that the president came down here," Nagin said of Bush's Friday visit to Louisiana in an interview with CNN. "He came down and saw it, and he put a general on the field. His name is General Honore. And when he hit the field, we started to see action."


Yep, the Republicans are circleing the wagons and blaming the black democratic Mayor. Lessen #1 in the Bush doctrine when you f_ckup pass the blame to someone else.

[Atlas]

A guy who professes to be a "Christian" but whose "kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out" rhetoric runs contrary to Christ's teachings at every turn trying to tell others what Christianity is all about.

Go figure...

Bush once executed a 31 year old retarded man who believed in Santa Clause during his time as Governor. That doesn't sound too Christian... Oh wait yes it does, That sounds so typically Christian.

[24champ]

<img src="http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y130/creedguy2003/yep2.gif" alt="Image hosted by Photobucket.com">




<img src="http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y130/creedguy2003/yep.gif" alt="Image hosted by Photobucket.com

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Bush once executed a 31 year old retarded man who believed in Santa Clause during his time as Governor. That doesn't sound too Christian... Oh wait yes it does, That sounds so typically Christian.

Bush obviously enjoys killing people.

(See Karla Faye Tucker.)

[epicSocialism4tw]

Bush once executed a 31 year old retarded man who believed in Santa Clause during his time as Governor. That doesn't sound too Christian... Oh wait yes it does, That sounds so typically Christian.

See the Ten Commandments for a legit answer to that one.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

See the Ten Commandments for a legit answer to that one.
So what does that mean, what does that have to do with executing mentally retarded humans?

[epicSocialism4tw]

So what does that mean, what does that have to do with executing mentally retarded humans?

He used a blanket statement saying that Christians enjoy murder.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Yep, the Republicans are circleing the wagons and blaming the black democratic Mayor. Lessen #1 in the Bush doctrine when you f_ckup pass the blame to someone else.

True that.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Atlas again.

[W*GS]

Bush once executed a 31 year old retarded man who believed in Santa Clause during his time as Governor.

Bush didn't literally execute the guy, and, if memory serves, the Texas governor cannot stop an execution - he can only stay it. It's not like other states, where the governor can grant clemency.

[Atlas]

Bush didn't literally execute the guy, and, if memory serves, the Texas governor cannot stop an execution - he can only stay it. It's not like other states, where the governor can grant clemency.

Yeah I know. He didn't do ****.

[W*GS]

Yeah I know. He didn't do ****.

There is the consideration that you don't want the governor to override the decisions of the legal system (juries, mainly) willy-nilly. What would be the point of the rule of law, and the separation of powers, if an executive could set aside verdicts any time he chose to do so?

[Spider]

That's not a link, that's like having Rush call me to explain the situation!
LOL ......

[Spider]

There is the consideration that you don't want the governor to override the decisions of the legal system (juries, mainly) willy-nilly. What would be the point of the rule of law, and the separation of powers, if an executive could set aside verdicts any time he chose to do so?
:juggle: