Gas Gouging Hits Across Country; Should Bush Step In?

[Bronco_Beerslug]

And will he step in? Gas prices rose across the country yesterday (over 30 cents a gallon in some areas) and today on the news of Katrina. What can and should Bush do? How much did gas go up in your area? Jumped 27 cents here overnight.

[Rascal]

I'm thinking when the national average hits 3.00 he will release the reserves. At least I hope he will. Maybe put in a national freeze, but I'm not enough of a economics wiz to know the drawbacks of that.

Jumped 20+ cents here.

[ak1971]

I dont know if local price gouging is an area that the feds should step into. The local authorities/govt should definately. There is no reason why a tank of gas which was already delivered should jump .20-.40 overnight

[Rohirrim]

Unfortuantely, the oil reserves are exactly that - oil. What we're running short on is gasoline.

[RaiderH8r]

I'm thinking when the national average hits 3.00 he will release the reserves. At least I hope he will. Maybe put in a national freeze, but I'm not enough of a economics wiz to know the drawbacks of that.

Jumped 20+ cents here.
The White House is most likely going to tap the reserve and there should be an announcement later today to that effect. Analysts predict that the reserves going to market will have little effect on the prices and commodity futures. Release all you want it will not stem the tide. The problem here is not necessarily one of production but rather refinement. There are quite a few refineries in the gulf coast area and US refining capacity has been running close to full tilt for some time now. It's been predicted for quite some time that without additional refining capacity built that any hiccup (or in this case may be a throw up, remains to be seen) would have a dramatic impact on oil commodity prices.

We've gone 20+ years without building a new refinery in this country and it is and will continue to bite us in the ass. It is one of the many bottlenecks along the supply stream for oil. My advice is to fill up everything you've got today and hold out for a couple of weeks until this thing begins to subside a bit.

As for a national freeze on prices, that has more to do with individual down stream owners who sell gas on the retail market. Hawaii had already put a cap in place before the hurricane and the fear is that many owners will simply close down shop or that oil companies will cease selling gas to the area.

[Rascal]

So why don't we build more refineries? Private or gov't owned?

[RaiderH8r]

So why don't we build more refineries? Private or gov't owned?
They aren't government owned but that doesn't mean gov't doesn't have the final say in citing, permitting, litigation, regulation, etc. The process of building a $600 Million facility quickly becomes cost prohibitive. I could get into a dissertation on the issue but I'll try to keep this short and answer as we go.

Interestingly, there is a company called Valero Energy who buys up refining capacity and operates as an independent refiner. It is a stock you may want to check out.

BTW, hurricane issues notwithstanding, expect Congressional inquiries, briefings, and, quite possibly, hearings on the oil situation in the coming months. Maybe next spring just before summer travel season.

[Rascal]

The gov't can't build their own referies?

I think Valero has been mentioned before a time or two :)

[RaiderH8r]

The gov't can't build their own referies?

I think Valero has been mentioned before a time or two :)
A commercial government refining concern? A state owned business? God help you if WAGS sees this. rofl

The Gov. can do what it wants. I wouldn't support a gov owned refining or any business for that matter. Their grubby little dick skinners are already too deep into the market. But que sera' sera'. You deal with what is.

[Rascal]

LOL

If it prevents me from paying high gas prices I don't care who owns it.

[W*GS]

Bush shouldn't do anything.

[BroncoInferno]

Bush shouldn't do anything.

Hey, Bush is pretty good at that.

[RaiderH8r]

LOL

If it prevents me from paying high gas prices I don't care who owns it.
Here's the real kicker.

We're going to find out in the next couple of weeks just what kind of prices the market will bear. There really is no incentive for oil companies to build their own refineries because that will drive prices and profits down. If the market bears $5/gal. then they'll produce at $5/gal. And they won't build enough extra refining capacity to move the price down significantly. Building a new refining facility is cost prohibitive for independent owners and the legal, bureaucratic, permitting and litigation processes only add to cost and pain in the ass. So, we're left with finding new refining techniques that are more cost effective and easier to build. Or the whole nation goes nuclear and electric cars/hybrids begin to cut demand so as to hit the oil majors in the pocket books forcing them to revamp their refining process and into a market of quantity and out of a market of cost.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

The gov't can't build their own referies?

I think Valero has been mentioned before a time or two :)

I guess they can if China can, right (see CNOOC)?

Refineries are the nastiest, dirtiest, most dangerous, smelliest industrial plants around. Living anywhere near them increases your cancer risk. They foul the air and the water and the ground. Takes years to build one and not many states want them in their state.


Or the whole nation goes nuclear and electric cars/hybrids begin to cut demand so as to hit the oil majors in the pocket books forcing them to revamp their refining process and into a market of quantity and out of a market of cost.

Nuclear power isn't the answer. Can't get rid of the waste and NO ONE wants it's stored in their state. Plus they cost twice as much to build as conventional power plants. Coal for power generation for now and renewable and alternative energies is the answer.

[Rascal]

Here's the real kicker.

We're going to find out in the next couple of weeks just what kind of prices the market will bear. There really is no incentive for oil companies to build their own refineries because that will drive prices and profits down. If the market bears $5/gal. then they'll produce at $5/gal. And they won't build enough extra refining capacity to move the price down significantly. Building a new refining facility is cost prohibitive for independent owners and the legal, bureaucratic, permitting and litigation processes only add to cost and pain in the ass. So, we're left with finding new refining techniques that are more cost effective and easier to build. Or the whole nation goes nuclear and electric cars/hybrids begin to cut demand so as to hit the oil majors in the pocket books forcing them to revamp their refining process and into a market of quantity and out of a market of cost.

That's what I'm afraid of. They are going to see that we will still pay 3 bucks a gallon or more so they won't do anything to stop it.

Unfortunately I'm not sure there is much we can do. There is no public transportation to work and I can't afford to buy a hybrid.

[Mile High Shack]

I hate living in today's society

I almost wish we were back to horses

This 2.69/gallon bs is just that...bs

oil didnt go up that much yesterday to warrant such a rise, they don't even know the extent of any damage...if at all

it's like beerslug said, it's price gouging, plain and simple

[RaiderH8r]

I guess they can if China can, right (see CNOOC)?

Refineries are the nastiest, dirtiest, most dangerous, smelliest industrial plants around. Living anywhere near them increases your cancer risk. They foul the air and the water and the ground. Takes years to build one and not many states want them in their state.
They smell like money...lots and lots of money.

Don't live near one then. You occupy what, 1 acre of land necessary for your survival, that leaves plenty of options for other areas. Refinery work is also a job that pays very well with very little elitist education. You go to work and make a great living with great benefits. Poor rural areas need that sort of work so that they may send their own children through the elitist system so they can make a better life for themselves. You talk of helping the poor but the jobs they can do best in with the tools they've been afforded are exactly the same jobs environmentalists and crybaby hippies want to take away from them. Just keep them on gov't subsistence and they'll keep voting for your guys so the checks keep coming. Give'em a better life that they can earn on their own and they may just stop drinking at your trough.

[Mile High Shack]

Local cities of more than 100,000 people need to start investing in public transportation as well, at least better public transportation.

Most of public transportation in America is a complete joke.

[RaiderH8r]

I guess they can if China can, right (see CNOOC)?

Refineries are the nastiest, dirtiest, most dangerous, smelliest industrial plants around. Living anywhere near them increases your cancer risk. They foul the air and the water and the ground. Takes years to build one and not many states want them in their state.




Nuclear power isn't the answer. Can't get rid of the waste and NO ONE wants it's stored in their state. Plus they cost twice as much to build as conventional power plants. Coal for power generation for now and renewable and alternative energies is the answer.
Coal power requires coal mining. Which isn't exactly a position that goes over well in the environmental community. The clean coal initiative contained in the energy bill is a vehicle to the point you're making although the end game may be different in the long term. But the short term is a policy of greater coal usage for power production.

[RaiderH8r]

Local cities of more than 100,000 people need to start investing in public transportation as well, at least better public transportation.

Most of public transportation in America is a complete joke.
The problem with public transportation is the public and not the transportation ;D . I'll still take the car. :militia:

[Bronco_Beerslug]

They smell like money...lots and lots of money.

Don't live near one then. You occupy what, 1 acre of land necessary for your survival, that leaves plenty of options for other areas. Refinery work is also a job that pays very well with very little elitist education. You go to work and make a great living with great benefits. Poor rural areas need that sort of work so that they may send their own children through the elitist system so they can make a better life for themselves. You talk of helping the poor but the jobs they can do best in with the tools they've been afforded are exactly the same jobs environmentalists and crybaby hippies want to take away from them. Just keep them on gov't subsistence and they'll keep voting for your guys so the checks keep coming. Give'em a better life that they can earn on their own and they may just stop drinking at your trough.

What is this rant about? Putting poor people in refineries? Refinery work is NOT a great living! Most are non-union with little benefits and lower wages.
Anyone working in refineries are constantly risking their life just by being there. They also are exposed daily to hundreds of chemicals that cause cancer. Industrial construction and maintenance in refineries is one of worst jobs anyone could look to do!!!!!

[W*GS]

I hate living in today's society

Because gas is becoming less cheap?

Wow - a clearer depiction of a serious addiction would be difficult to find.

Somehow Europeans, Japanese, Australians and many others pay far more for gasoline than we do and don't "hate" their societies.

I almost wish we were back to horses

Thanks for the laugh. You'd be complaining about hay gouging.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Coal power requires coal mining. Which isn't exactly a position that goes over well in the environmental community. The clean coal initiative contained in the energy bill is a vehicle to the point you're making although the end game may be different in the long term. But the short term is a policy of greater coal usage for power production.
There's enough coal to power the country for over 300 years in Wyo, Mt and ND alone. Those states don't have any problem letting people pull coal out of the ground.

[RaiderH8r]

What is this rant about? Putting poor people in refineries? Refinery work is NOT a great living! Most are non-union with little benefits and lower wages.
Anyone working in refineries are constantly risking their life just by being there. They also are exposed daily to hundreds of chemicals that cause cancer. Industrial construction and maintenance in refineries is one of worst jobs anyone could look to do!!!!!
Done any refinery work recently?

My uncles, cousins, brother and myself have all worked in a refinery at one time or another. Uncles retired at 50 with full pension...UNION! I paid dues during turnaround and paid for my college education on the money I made with some left to invest.

[Mile High Shack]

Because gas is becoming less cheap?

Wow - a clearer depiction of a serious addiction would be difficult to find.

Somehow Europeans, Japanese, Australians and many others pay far more for gasoline than we do and don't "hate" their societies.



Thanks for the laugh. You'd be complaining about hay gouging.

sorry I don't have a huge disposable income like yourself, the price of gas is really cutting into my budget big time.

It's price gouging, plain and simple, you see record profits for oil and gas companies every quarter, so obviously they aren't doing so bad

My wife works 18 miles away and will soon go back to work, day care is 400/month that I have to budget in.

Things were tight before, but since gas is getting outrageous, I'm going to have to find a part time job to be able to afford to drive to work

obviously I was kidding about horses

[Mile High Shack]

The problem with public transportation is the public and not the transportation ;D . I'll still take the car. :militia:
Well, I think I’m going to have to take it, I simply can’t afford these gas prices

There is one bus that goes from the ‘burbs where I live to downtown, problem is catching it to go home, gonna have to shag ass to get over there

[RaiderH8r]

There's enough coal to power the country for over 300 years in Wyo, Mt and ND alone. Those states don't have any problem letting people pull coal out of the ground.
Are you sh@tting me? You obviously know nothing of the environmental movement in Montana. I won't speak for WY or ND. Montana hippies protest the methane coming out of cattle as destructive to the environment. They're freaking rabid, and they're everywhere. You think my disdain for these people stems solely from an ideaological standpoint? No my good man, I have my experience in dealing with them. They are a misinformed, dangerous and rabid bunch.

[Hotrod]

Thanks for the laugh. You'd be complaining about hay gouging.

He may not but damn $3.50 a bale this year is price gouging if Ive ever seen it. Oh well I guess when gas hits 5 bucks Ill be riding my pony to work.

[RaiderH8r]

He may not but damn $3.50 a bale this year is price gouging if Ive ever seen it. Oh well I guess when gas hits 5 bucks Ill be riding my pony to work.
Who knew the Amish were on the cutting edge of transportation?

[W*GS]

sorry I don't have a huge disposable income like yourself, the price of gas is really cutting into my budget big time.

I don't have a "huge disposable income".

Things were tight before, but since gas is getting outrageous, I'm going to have to find a part time job to be able to afford to drive to work

Your wife's income from her job won't help that? Should she really have a job, then?

What other things can you do without so you can afford gas? If we had to, we could cut a lot of extraneous expenses. Broadband at home, for one example.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Because gas is becoming less cheap?

Wow - a clearer depiction of a serious addiction would be difficult to find.

Somehow Europeans, Japanese, Australians and many others pay far more for gasoline than we do and don't "hate" their societies.

Thanks for the laugh. You'd be complaining about hay gouging.

We built our society around cars, the Europeans society is almost the opposite.

[RaiderH8r]

I don't have a "huge disposable income".



Your wife's income from her job won't help that? Should she really have a job, then?

What other things can you do without so you can afford gas? If we had to, we could cut a lot of extraneous expenses. Broadband at home, for one example.
Yeah but a dial up for porn on Friday nights just becomes laborious.

[RaiderH8r]

We built our society around cars, the Europeans society is almost the opposite.
And you could travel across 5 countries in Europe on the same distance it takes to half way across TX.

[Rascal]

Well what suggestion to you have for me Wigs? I have the cheapest internet at home (56k for 10 bucks a month), don't have cable TV (just rabbit ears), or any other extraneous expenses. The only thing I do is go golf occasionally but i haven't done that in over a month.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Done any refinery work recently?

My uncles, cousins, brother and myself have all worked in a refinery at one time or another. Uncles retired at 50 with full pension...UNION! I paid dues during turnaround and paid for my college education on the money I made with some left to invest.
Worked at them for over 25 years. Like I said, most of the refineries are overwhelmingly non-union with lower wages and minimal benefits.

So did you work as a Boilermaker or Pipefitter?

[Rascal]

We built our society around cars, the Europeans society is almost the opposite.

Europeans also have fantastic public transportation available. Plus people who own gas guzzlers are looked down upon. Whereas here it is often a status symbol.

[RaiderH8r]

Worked at them for over 25 years. Like I said, most of the refineries are overwhelmingly non-union with lower wages and minimal benefits.

So did you work as a Boilermaker or Pipefitter?
I was straight labor. Worked turnaround cleaning the tanks. Seasonal work for a college bound kid. In retrospect pipefitter and boilermaker are two trades, among a few others, that I would encourage my kids to look into if they are interested. It's almost like being a Dr., nobody else knows how the hell to do it so you make good money.

[RaiderH8r]

Europeans also have fantastic public transportation available. Plus people who own gas guzzlers are looked down upon. Whereas here it is often a status symbol.
European society and cities were built thousands of years ago with proximity in mind. Around a time when an SUV meant having a horse AND buggy.

[W*GS]

We built our society around cars, the Europeans society is almost the opposite.

Not quite. There's no shortage of cars in Europe. A distinct lack of gas-guzzling behemoths, generally, but that's not at all a bad thing. I did notice quite a few American SUVs (even a Hummer) in Geneva, but then the Swiss are rich and can afford expensive gas.

But in any case, our "dependency" on the automobile has costs, and they are starting to come due. We can't say that we didn't see this coming.

[W*GS]

Well what suggestion to you have for me Wigs? I have the cheapest internet at home (56k for 10 bucks a month), don't have cable TV (just rabbit ears), or any other extraneous expenses. The only thing I do is go golf occasionally but i haven't done that in over a month.

I'm not a financial advisor. Go find one.

[Rascal]

They cost money as well.

[Rascal]

But in any case, our "dependency" on the automobile has costs, and they are starting to come due. We can't say that we didn't see this coming.

Sure I've seen it coming but what could I have done about it? I don't have the resouces available like these big companies to find alternative fuel options.

[ak1971]

I'm not a financial advisor. Go find one.


I'm a Broncos fan..Go find a team.

Just passed a station in Parker with gas for sale for $1.99! Woo HOO!

[Hotrod]

I'm not a financial advisor. Go find one.

Anyone who reads your posts can tell that. Hopefully your not in charge of advising anyone about anything. ;)

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Lots of people asking Bush to release reserves now. Oil is up over $3 today. If the ports in La are silted in as some people are speculating, Oil is being projected to go over $80 or even $90 (another $1-2 a gallon).

[ak1971]

More refineries and start drilling in ANWR

[Rascal]

Do that and start switching to ethanol.

[RaiderH8r]

Do that and start switching to ethanol.
Ethanol is a net energy loss. It takes more natural gas to create it than the process produces. But since Iowa and other corn states want to be on the teet it'll get done.

[Rascal]

uh....not from what I've heard and read.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Ethanol is a net energy loss. It takes more natural gas to create it than the process produces. But since Iowa and other corn states want to be on the teet it'll get done.

No the technology used now refines it at about 1 = 1.4 (just released figures in June of this year from the U.S. governmnet).

They also state this technology will improve a lot more in the near future.

[Hotrod]

No the technology used now refines it at about 1 = 1.4 (just released figures in June of this year from the U.S. governmnet).

They also state this technology will improve a lot more in the near future.

Thats great but how much $ has/will this cost. We dont even have the missle defense system up and running yet ;)

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Thats great but how much $ has/will this cost. We dont even have the missle defense system up and running yet ;)

I just emailed Bush and he agrees with me that making public the test results of the missle defense system tests is not good for American's confidence and moral he will no longer do that.

Ethanol is very cost effective at the gas prices of today.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Are you sh@tting me? You obviously know nothing of the environmental movement in Montana. I won't speak for WY or ND. Montana hippies protest the methane coming out of cattle as destructive to the environment. They're freaking rabid, and they're everywhere. You think my disdain for these people stems solely from an ideaological standpoint? No my good man, I have my experience in dealing with them. They are a misinformed, dangerous and rabid bunch.

Watch CNBC. Within the next hour Montana's governor is going to be on promoting Montana's coal as the answer to our power generating problems.

[OrangeShadow]

**** i knew i shoulda filled up earlier this week ~Popps~ :cuss:

[Mile High Shack]

I just emailed Bush and he agrees with me that making public the test results of the missle defense system tests is not good for American's confidence and moral he will no longer do that.

Ethanol is very cost effective at the gas prices of today.


and tomorrow

[Mile High Shack]

**** i knew i shoulda filled up earlier this week ~Popps~ :cuss:

it really won't matter

the real thing that should've been done is buy a 300 gallon tank, and fill it up back when gas was 1.50/gallon

I'm starting to wonder if there was something to this thing about Bush holding gas prices back before the election........

I know it's not his fault, it's just getting ridiculous for an economy based on the car (kinda)

[BKK]

My Father has built and worked on oil refineries around the world for 23 years and my brother for 7 years in Saudi. I grew up around them all my life we are all healthy and my father is 79 and strong as a horse they both made a alot of money doing it and non-union out of the U.S. (Fluor Corp.)

[Hotrod]

it really won't matter

the real thing that should've been done is buy a 300 gallon tank, and fill it up back when gas was 1.50/gallon
)

Im sure you are just joking in that you cant keep gas forever. It actually breaks down over time and messes up your car engine. Of course I have no idea what the solution is.

[RaiderH8r]

Watch CNBC. Within the next hour Montana's governor is going to be on promoting Montana's coal as the answer to our power generating problems.
That's been going on for some time. But since this is the first Dem gov. in over a decade maybe the hippies will give him a pass....maybe, but doubtful.

[Mile High Shack]

Im sure you are just joking in that you cant keep gas forever. It actually breaks down over time and messes up your car engine. Of course I have no idea what the solution is.

oh I was

I doubt the neighbors would appreciate a 300 gallon tank of flammable liquid in my back yard anyway :)

[Hotrod]

oh I was

I doubt the neighbors would appreciate a 300 gallon tank of flammable liquid in my back yard anyway :)

;D

I dont know they might not mind if you sold it to them at 3 bucks a gallon once gas hits 5 bucks ;D

[Bronco_Beerslug]

My Father has built and worked on oil refineries around the world for 23 years and my brother for 7 years in Saudi. I grew up around them all my life we are all healthy and my father is 79 and strong as a horse they both made a alot of money doing it and non-union out of the U.S. (Fluor Corp.)
That's good your father is healthy, a lot of people working refineries haven't been so lucky.

The last time I worked a refinery job I made around $40 an hour (wage package). Not nearly enough money to work in those sh*tholes for me.

[BKK]

oh I was

I doubt the neighbors would appreciate a 300 gallon tank of flammable liquid in my back yard anyway :)

I would be keeping my wits about me while doing BBQ.

[W*GS]

Lots of people asking Bush to release reserves now.

Why?

They're stupid to demand it - let's save the SPR for a real crisis, not Joe American spending $75 to fill his SUV.

[Rascal]

Im sure you are just joking in that you cant keep gas forever. It actually breaks down over time and messes up your car engine. Of course I have no idea what the solution is.

Buy a new engine...it is probably cheaper anyway.

[Spider]

well I spent a little over 800.00 in fuel this trip ... Heavy going down to El Paso , 3.5 miles to the gallon , 4.2 comming home ....... Some dickheads on the CB said Fuel was going up to 5.00 bucks , they got the message on theit qual-com ....Swift drivers .... glad to see that didnt happen ....... Yes Price gouging is happening , but I dont want Bush to step in , Goverment has enough power now , we could be opening a pandora's box letting goverment regulate prices .......
Releasing some of the S.R. would help , but we do need to get to a different fuel source .......

[Rascal]

Actually I'm not sure releasing the SR would help...the problem now is that more then 25% of our refineries just got whipped out for who knows how long.

[Spider]

Actually I'm not sure releasing the SR would help...the problem now is that more then 25% of our refineries just got whipped out for who knows how long.
So how would releasing some of the S.R. to cover that 25% hurt ? ...... Not following your point here Rascal ....

[Rascal]

because even if he released all of it it wouldn't matter. The lack of oil isn't the problem, it's the lack of being able to refine it into gas/diesel/etc.

releasing the SR might help once the refineries get back up and running, but not until then.

[Spider]

We haul oil field equipment ..... I am sure if there is a bad hit , I will be so busy .... ;D
I will let you know in a couple of weeks

[Hotrod]

So how would releasing some of the S.R. to cover that 25% hurt ? ...... Not following your point here Rascal ....

Oil would still have to be turned into gas. Theres really no where to do that?

[Spider]

because even if he released all of it it wouldn't matter. The lack of oil isn't the problem, it's the lack of being able to refine it into gas/diesel/etc.
I was at the El Paso refienery 6501 Throwbridge , Place was like Caspers refienery ghoast town 1 guard , 2 Pick ups was all I saw .... I dont understand the lack of refieneries , not when theses monsters are almost idle .....

[Spider]

Oil would still have to be turned into gas. Theres really no where to do that?
El Pasos was like Caspers = Ghoast town , I tried to ask the gaurd about it , but he wouldnt respond ...... Gave me that my English isnt so good

[Rascal]

I was at the El Paso refienery 6501 Throwbridge , Place was like Caspers refienery ghoast town 1 guard , 2 Pick ups was all I saw .... I dont understand the lack of refieneries , not when theses monsters are almost idle .....

that's probably because they didn't upgrade their equipment and pass the latest inspection and were shut down.

basically shooting off your own foot.

[Spider]

that's probably because they didn't upgrade their equipment and pass the latest inspection and were shut down.

basically shooting off your own foot.
Might be .........if I would have had time , I would have swung by the one in Denver and Cheyenne and see if they was busy ..Somthing tells me though Cheyeene is cranking cause they can handle Sweet and Sour crude ...... Just seems odd all of these refineries , I have seen are slow .......

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Why?

They're stupid to demand it - let's save the SPR for a real crisis, not Joe American spending $75 to fill his SUV.

Uh, because this is a real crisis? Exactly what the SPR was designed for.
We now have 3 different refineries that are in perfect working order with no oil to refine.

[W*GS]

Uh, because this is a real crisis? Exactly what the SPR was designed for.

What's the crisis? Gas and oil are expensive?

What do we do when (say) imports are severely curtailed, via terrorism, political strife, or as the result of deliberate policy? Wish we hadn't drawn down the SPR because gas hit $3/gallon?

Do you tap into your retirement funds to pay for your gas costs? I hope not.

[Mile High Shack]

What's the crisis? Gas and oil are expensive?

What do we do when (say) imports are severely curtailed, via terrorism, political strife, or as the result of deliberate policy? Wish we hadn't drawn down the SPR because gas hit $3/gallon?

Do you tap into your retirement funds to pay for your gas costs? I hope not.

over the course of time, 3.00/gallon is going to severly hamper the american economy until a viable source of fuel is created for everyday use.

the price of household items, food, everything is going to sky rocket sooner rather than later.

trucks use gas, which deliver products to the supermarket.

we don't have a hunter/gatherer society anymore

[Hotrod]

Wow I can almost see W*gs's point. 3 bucks hurts but it would hurt more to have drawn down the surplus then have a major terror attack/war break out and we need it. Either way you look at it the price hurts no doubt but not sure the reserves should be used atleast not at 3 bucks a gallon. 4 or 5 bucks may quickly become another story.

[Hotrod]

we don't have a hunter/gatherer society anymore

I could if I had too. Oh never mind now Im just bragging about being a hick Ha!

[Mile High Shack]

I could if I had too. Oh never mind now Im just bragging about being a hick Ha!

well I don't think I'd trade heating oil for your deer skins...lol

[Mile High Shack]

Wow I can almost see W*gs's point. 3 bucks hurts but it would hurt more to have drawn down the surplus then have a major terror attack/war break out and we need it. Either way you look at it the price hurts no doubt but not sure the reserves should be used atleast not at 3 bucks a gallon. 4 or 5 bucks may quickly become another story.

it's going to go above 3/gallon, the oil companies smell money right now

[Bronco_Beerslug]

What's the crisis?

This time I'll go more s l o w l y. Refineries are running out of oil to refine because tankers can't get into ports to offload and the LOOP is down.

This m e a n s gasoline shortages will be in the offing very soon unless the SPR are released.

So in order to avert a "crisis" Bush will have to release the reserves in the next day or two.

[Hotrod]

it's going to go above 3/gallon, the oil companies smell money right now

Thats what pisses me off. If it comes to light that the prices are up just for profit while American workers are getting it up the pie hole I will be pissed off. I dont know both sides of the isle seem to be making a pretty strong case. I truely am undecided on this issue. The price of everything we use/eat/need/want will take a huge leap if prices go up much more the 3 bucks. This is a bigger problem then what first meets the eye and most people seem to be just watching helplessly.

[W*GS]

At what price per gallon of gasoline should we start to draw down the SPR?

How come other nations can "survive" much more expensive gas than we can?

[W*GS]

This time I'll go more s l o w l y. Refineries are running out of oil to refine because tankers can't get into ports to offload and the LOOP is down.

This m e a n s gasoline shortages will be in the offing very soon unless the SPR are released.

So how much does Bush release, and, how soon will that help gas prices go down, and, how much do we pay, later, when we really need it?

Gas prices are higher, much higher, yes. But that's not sufficient reason to siphon off the only stockpile we have of crude.

[Spider]

This time I'll go more s l o w l y. Refineries are running out of oil to refine because tankers can't get into ports to offload and the LOOP is down.

This m e a n s gasoline shortages will be in the offing very soon unless the SPR are released.
I have been running around saying these Refineries by me are Idle , add to it the one in El paso not running full , maybe Rascal is right , but somthing tells me , if he was they would have those refineries up and going in the shortest time possible ..........Casper Refinery has been a ghost town over 2 years now

[Rascal]

Because their gov't and companies have been taking steps to establish a public transportation system and what not.

Just called the local bus company. 50 bucks for a month and it will take 60+ minutes for me to get to work instead of my 30 minutes. Ouch!

[Bronco_Beerslug]

How come other nations can "survive" much more expensive gas than we can?
I already answered this. Our country is built around the auto where most other countries aren't.

[Rascal]

I have been running around saying these Refineries by me are Idle , add to it the one in El paso not running full , maybe Rascal is right , but somthing tells me , if he was they would have those refineries up and going in the shortest time possible ..........Casper Refinery has been a ghost town over 2 years now

Maybe you are right...maybe I'm right. Who knows but like you said something isn't adding up. We have three refiniries sitting there doing nothing and yet we continue to pay incredible amounts.

One thing would be if we would stop producing something like 40 different types of gas and just go with 85, 87, and 91 (93 for California I guess).

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Gas Gouging Hits Across Country; Should Bush Step In?

rofl

Bush "step in?"

The people who are doing the gouging are the same people who put Bush in power and who pull his strings.

[Spider]

Maybe you are right...maybe I'm right. Who knows but like you said something isn't adding up. We have three refiniries sitting there doing nothing and yet we continue to pay incredible amounts.

One thing would be if we would stop producing something like 40 different types of gas and just go with 85, 87, and 91 (93 for California I guess).
I agree . we need to cut down on all the different Grades ... My Pick up gets 85 . I am no yuppie ;D my Rig gets Diesel #2 .....

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Oil Companies' Profiteering to Blame for Gas Price Spike, Says FTCR

SANTA MONICA, California - August 15 - The Foundation for Taxpayer and Consumer Rights (FTCR) noted today that recent world profits by the oil industry shows profiteering is to blame for the recent 20 cent run-up at the pump during the last three weeks.

FTCR's research has exposed manipulation of domestic refining capacity and inventories by American oil companies as the reason behind gasoline price spikes, not the traditional scapegoats of Big Oil: OPEC, government regulation, litigation, and environmental standards.

"In a commodities market, domestic oil companies know that the lower the inventories they keep, the higher the profits, because perceived shortages mean a speculative run-up in prices," said Jamie Court, president of FTCR and author of Corporateering: How Corporater Power Steals Your Personal Freedom and What You Can Do About It (Tarcher/Penguin.) "Big Oil rigs summer time driving season for big profits by keeping inventories low. Since Capitol Hill is complicit, it's up to states to enact laws that restrict profiteering through reforms like an excess profits tax, public utility regulation of refineries, and price controls. Big Oil may have Americans over a barrel now, but $3 per gallon gasoline should spur statehouses to take matters into their own hands. Every summer should not be open season for oil companies to gouge American motorists."

Recent financial statements show oil companies making new world record profits on top of last year's banner world record profits. Exxon Mobil's second quarter earnings jumped 35 percent over last year, Royal Dutch Shell rose 34 percent, ConocoPhillips shot up 51 percent.

http://www.consumerwatchdog.org/energy/gasprices/

http://www.commondreams.org/news2005/0815-03.htm

[bronco_diesel]

I agree . we need to cut down on all the different Grades ... My Pick up gets 85 . I am no yuppie ;D my Rig gets Diesel #2 .....

don't kid yourself...you're a yuppie!

[W*GS]

I already answered this. Our country is built around the auto where most other countries aren't.

That was a big mistake, don't you think? Perhaps if we didn't insist on large houses with 3-car garages miles from any goods and services, it wouldn't be such a big deal.

Besides, other countries use transport networks not dissimilar to our own - they move goods via truck and rail like we do. It's not like all the French take mass transit.

[Spider]

don't kid yourself...you're a yuppie!
hmmm... says the man from the burbs ......

[Bronco_Beerslug]

That was a big mistake, don't you think? Perhaps if we didn't insist on large houses with 3-car garages miles from any goods and services, it wouldn't be such a big deal.

Besides, other countries use transport networks not dissimilar to our own - they move goods via truck and rail like we do. It's not like all the French take mass transit.

Nothing we can do about the "big mistake" now (in the short term). The French have a great mass transit system compared to us. They take trains everywhere.

[W*GS]

Oil Companies' Profiteering to Blame for Gas Price Spike, Says FTCR

When you said this last time, on 18 Aug:

http://72.22.74.110/BB/showpost.php?p=708601&postcount=248

my reply back then still applies:

Thanks for parading your approval of such inane ideas to us all, LABF. If there was any doubt that you're a far-left populist, well, there can't be any doubt remaining.

Clearly, your cover of "Clinton Democrat" has been blown. You never were, and every time you claimed to be, you were lying.

[W*GS]

Nothing we can do about the "big mistake" now (in the short term).

This increase in gas prices ought to focus our thoughts on our lifestyles and habits, don't you think?

Why fall for the temporary and misplaced short-termism of drawing down the SPR?

Do you wean someone off alcohol or cigarettes by making those things cheaper?

[bronco_diesel]

hmmm... says the man from the burbs ......

:)

[Spider]

That was a big mistake, don't you think? Perhaps if we didn't insist on large houses with 3-car garages miles from any goods and services, it wouldn't be such a big deal.
you kidding me ? seriously , what about the clothes you have on ? Meds that are shiped in ? How many freaking cotten fields are there in Colorado ? thats right there is none .. How about limes ? Lemmons , Oranges ,Grapes ....
House hold appliences , TV's Computers, Even to build them you have to have the materials to start ...... good Grief W*GS think son .......
As the population grows , citys have to expand also , Unless 5 families to one house is your idea of living .......

[Spider]

:)
How have you been bro ?

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Nothing we can do about the "big mistake" now (in the short term). The French have a great mass transit system compared to us. They take trains everywhere.

The Bush/Cheney "solution?"

An "energy bill" which amounts to yet another $85 billion worth of tax cuts for oil companies (as opposed to, say, using the money to rebuild America's rail system.)

[W*GS]

As the population grows , citys have to expand also , Unless 5 families to one house is your idea of living .......

There's quite a range of options between tenement slums and 4,500 square foot houses sitting on 1 1/2 acres of land for mom, dad, and the obligatory child-unit, with an Expedition and a Hummer in two of the three spaces in the garage.

I didn't say we should all squash ourselves together - but that $3/gallon (or more gas) should force us to think and prioritize a bit.

You've always disagreed with me on this issue - is cheap gas so vital to the American Way that we can't adjust? Isn't the whole issue of America's addiction to oil creating so many problems that we should start thinking about other ways to get the energy we need, and perhaps be more efficient on how we use it?

[bronco_diesel]

How have you been bro ?

doing good spider! thanks! looks like the road is treating you well.

really starting to worry that we are primed for disaster right now...

[bronco_diesel]

There's quite a range of options between tenement slums and 4,500 square foot houses sitting on 1 1/2 acres of land for mom, dad, and the obligatory child-unit, with an Expedition and a Hummer in two of the three spaces in the garage.

I didn't say we should all squash ourselves together - but that $3/gallon (or more gas) should force us to think and prioritize a bit.

You've always disagreed with me on this issue - is cheap gas so vital to the American Way that we can't adjust? Isn't the whole issue of America's addiction to oil creating so many problems that we should start thinking about other ways to get the energy we need, and perhaps be more efficient on how we use it?

w*gs -
i will agree that there is a majority of population that lives and has been living beyond their means...but serioiusly, how many people truly fit into the category of the expedition/hummer and 3 car spaces? is it really the majority?

[W*GS]

w*gs -
i will agree that there is a majority of population that lives and has been living beyond their means...but serioiusly, how many people truly fit into the category of the expedition/hummer and 3 car spaces? is it really the majority?

It's enough - not a majority, perhaps, but enough.

It's not at all obvious to me that the American desires for MORE and BIGGER are at all good - we're in too much debt, we're too vulnerable to the uncontrollable actions of others, we're too fat...

Perhaps Americans need a 2x4 to the head to get a clue.

[Spider]

T
You've always disagreed with me on this issue - is cheap gas so vital to the American Way that we can't adjust?
Man , you got to have time , this is hitting us hard @ once ..... Take me for example a trip that would cost around $500.00 in fuel is damn near a thousand . Dont think for a second that i will eat that 500.00 .. you will , it isnt so much the cost of fuel , as as with everything else , there is a cause and effect , you cant have one without the others , so if high prices only pertained to gas , then you would be on track , but when you stop and think about it , Everything will be effected down to your rent ...... The average Joe , busting his ass 40 hours a week raising a Family doing what he feels is right doesnt stand a chance .......
Some times W*GS you have to step out of your world and see how things effect other people ........

[Spider]

doing good spider! thanks! looks like the road is treating you well.

really starting to worry that we are primed for disaster right now...
;D I didnt realized how much I missed it untill i got back in one ...... Trucking is a way of life ;D

[W*GS]

Man , you got to have time , this is hitting us hard @ once ..... Take me for example a trip that would cost around $500.00 in fuel is damn near a thousand .

How much impact does doubling of your fuel cost have on the retail price of a given product? Does your paying double in diesel mean my socks (or whatever) will double in price too?

Some times W*GS you have to step out of your world and see how things effect other people ........

In a way, we've been putting off a day of reckoning for some decades now. When are we going to get serious and do something about it?

Yeah, it may hurt the guy who owns the Dunkin' Donuts down the street when you decide to go on a health kick, and quit eating a dozen of his donuts every day, but is adding that little bit of profit to his bottom line worth a coronary to you?

[bronco_diesel]

[QUOTE=W*GS]How much impact does doubling of your fuel cost have on the retail price of a given product? Does your paying double in diesel mean my socks (or whatever) will double in price too?
[QUOTE]

it's not just the pair of socks...and no, they will not double in price. but they will increase - that is the point...everything will increase...a little here, a little there, and before you know it, your daily expenses have increased. most increases will come at the pump...but there will be increases across the board...factor it all in, and there will be a pinch. most people will make it, and adjust, which is fine...but we are going to feel some pain before it happens.

[Spider]

How much impact does doubling of your fuel cost have on the retail price of a given product? Does your paying double in diesel mean my socks (or whatever) will double in price too?
Sure does W*GS , I like other trucking companies raise our Rates , to pay for the fuel , in turn , the stores raise their rates , to cover the cost of me raising my rates ,in turn Everyone pays more , Inturn your landlord raises your rent . it all started with proce of fuel .......



In a way, we've been putting off a day of reckoning for some decades now. When are we going to get serious and do something about it?
As soon as big oil understand they are the way of the dinosaur

Yeah, it may hurt the guy who owns the Dunkin' Donuts down the street when you decide to go on a health kick, and quit eating a dozen of his donuts every day, but is adding that little bit of profit to his bottom line worth a coronary to you?
Is your sight that limited ? that you have to take a choice that a few make in comparision of a somthing that Everyone is forced into ?
come on W*GS you can do better ......

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Some times W*GS you have to step out of your world and see how things effect other people ........

:laugh:

I wouldn't hold my breath on that one.

[Spider]

[QUOTE=W*GS]How much impact does doubling of your fuel cost have on the retail price of a given product? Does your paying double in diesel mean my socks (or whatever) will double in price too?
[QUOTE]

it's not just the pair of socks...and no, they will not double in price. but they will increase - that is the point...everything will increase...a little here, a little there, and before you know it, your daily expenses have increased. most increases will come at the pump...but there will be increases across the board...factor it all in, and there will be a pinch. most people will make it, and adjust, which is fine...but we are going to feel some pain before it happens.
Yes sir .

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Someone should also enlighten W*GS re: the extent to which our agriculture/food production is petroleum-dependent.

[TheDave]

I was talking to a friend of mine yesterday about this... with the economy not exactly humming along gas prices like this, combined with all the down line cost increases that will quickly follow could easily throw us back into a recession... Damn maybe I'm just getting older but does it seem like things have gone majorly out of wack lately. Recently we've been looking for a new car... HOLY $HIT HAS ANYONE SEEN THE PRICES OF NEW CARS RECENTLY...

Here is a little perspective, back in 1990 i bought a stripped down Toyota truck for $7,000. Fast forward to 2005 the exact same stripped down truck now costs $14,000. Right about that same time (1990) my folks were refinancing their home and were doing back flips that it appraised for $350,000. It's currently on the market for $1.2 mill. Gas was around $1.25 a gallon in those days now were looking at $3.00 a gallon. Here is a funny one back in 1970 when my parents bought their first home for $55,000 (the same one that is on the market now) their mortgage payment was right around $400 a month. I'm spending almost half that on Cable, cell, and Internet... that $hit didn't even exist back then. Then there is health insurance, Oh **** it, not going to get started on that circle jerk...

Sorry about the rant...

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I was talking to a friend of mine yesterday about this... with the economy not exactly humming along gas prices like this, combined with all the down line cost increases that will quickly follow could easily throw us back into a recession... Damn maybe I'm just getting older but does it seem like things have gone majorly out of wack lately. Recently we've been looking for a new car... HOLY $HIT HAS ANYONE SEEN THE PRICES OF NEW CARS RECENTLY...

Here is a little perspective, back in 1990 i bought a stripped down Toyota truck for $7,000. Fast forward to 2005 the exact same stripped down truck now costs $14,000. Right about that same time (1990) my folks were refinancing their home and were doing back flips that it appraised for $350,000. It's currently on the market for $1.2 mill. Gas was around $1.25 a gallon in those days now were looking at $3.00 a gallon. Here is a funny one back in 1970 when my parents bought their first home for $55,000 (the same one that is on the market now) their mortgage payment was right around $400 a month. I'm spending almost half that on Cable, cell, and Internet... that $hit didn't even exist back then. Then there is health insurance, Oh **** it, not going to get started on that circle jerk...

Sorry about the rant...

You mean we're not already in a recession? ;)

BTW, remember that gas was 99 cents a gallon as recently as 1999.

Anybody miss Clinton yet? :D

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Chimp cuts his vacation short

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/08/30/bush.hurricane.ap/index.html

....President Bush has decided to cut his vacation short and return to Washington tomorrow.

Man, with reports of bodies floating in the water in New Orleans, this is stunning dynamic leadership from the Chimp in Charge.

And just the other day they were insisting that it wasn't a vacation.

http://tinyurl.com/c639s

Now it's magically a vacation again.

http://www.blah3.com/article.php?story=20050830131046574

BTW, everyone's saying he's "cutting his 'vacation' short" by 2 days.

But he's hanging out and playing golf in Diego today, and going back to the Pig Farm tonight - and back to Washington tomorrow.

The accounts I've seen said the 'vacation' was supposed to last until the 31st, and he'll be going back to DC... on the 31st.

They lie and lie and lie.

Bush has miscalculated and once again harmed the country. It's been stated that depleting the national guard and weakening FEMA to divert funding to his homeland security boondoggles would bite us eventually.

Now we have the mayor of New Orleans sending out a plea for anyone with a boat to assemble so they can mount a search and rescue.

I would have expected the guard to be called out or a greater emergency presence to be available or the president to cut his vacation short the day BEFORE the storm but there will be excuses made.

Remember when president dumba$$ interupted his vacation to rush back to D.C. in order to vote on the Terri Schiavo bill? A bill that was later ruled unconstitutional?

Even his old buddy Gov. Haley Barbour (wasn't he Newt's spokesman at one time?) of Mississippi is pleading with him to take an ariel tour of southern Mississippi. He refused. Maybe it has something do with coffins floating down the streets of Gulfport--it might remind him of how good he has been for the coffin business...

[Rascal]

Someone should also enlighten W*GS re: the extent to which our agriculture/food production is petroleum-dependent.

One of your most intelligent posts I've ever read and you didn't insult anybody either. ^5

[Rascal]

Posted this on another thread but here it is anyway:

Just got home to hear the news (regarding NO being even worse) and on my way I noticed some disturbing things. First the price of gas had risen another 20 cents at the majority of the stations (for a total of 40 cents in 48 hours), and second those that had not risen 20 cents were pumped dry of regular except for the one I found that went dry as soon as I finished pumping. Conoco, Shell, 7-11, Walmart, Texaco, Phillips, all were bone dry of regular unless they charged the 20 cents extra and I saw some of those were even empty.

That is some scary sh!t!!!!!

[Spider]

Posted this on another thread but here it is anyway:

Just got home to hear the news (regarding NO being even worse) and on my way I noticed some disturbing things. First the price of gas had risen another 20 cents at the majority of the stations (for a total of 40 cents in 48 hours), and second those that had not risen 20 cents were pumped dry of regular except for the one I found that went dry as soon as I finished pumping. Conoco, Shell, 7-11, Walmart, Texaco, Phillips, all were bone dry of regular unless they charged the 20 cents extra and I saw some of those were even empty.

That is some scary sh!t!!!!!
LOL Bro was in a panic last knight worried about Fuel prices , had to get to old Cheyenne to fill up ...... I was expecting anywhere from 50 cent to a buck , and when you buy a hundred to 2 hundred gallons a pop it adds up ..... We didnt go up here in Wyoming , but I have more then enough fuel to get back to Cheyenne ;D

[Mile High Shack]

Posted this on another thread but here it is anyway:

Just got home to hear the news (regarding NO being even worse) and on my way I noticed some disturbing things. First the price of gas had risen another 20 cents at the majority of the stations (for a total of 40 cents in 48 hours), and second those that had not risen 20 cents were pumped dry of regular except for the one I found that went dry as soon as I finished pumping. Conoco, Shell, 7-11, Walmart, Texaco, Phillips, all were bone dry of regular unless they charged the 20 cents extra and I saw some of those were even empty.

That is some scary sh!t!!!!!

well in this case, this is a panic

the actual shortages won't start happening for a few months, so right now, it's just plain panic setting in

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

One of your most intelligent posts I've ever read and you didn't insult anybody either. ^5

Well isn't that a coincidence?

This is the first post I've seen from you that didn't start with name-calling and insults in a long time.

[ak1971]

Well isn't that a coincidence?

This is the first post I've seen from you that didn't start with name-calling and insults in a long time.


Crap the world is really coming to an end

[ak1971]

.

[gunns]

How much impact does doubling of your fuel cost have on the retail price of a given product? Does your paying double in diesel mean my socks (or whatever) will double in price too?

Yes it does. And socks are a minor thing. The highest fuel bill I've paid to heat my home is 125.00 a month until the beginning of this year when prices really started rising. For the rest of the winter I paid 200.00 per month because the gas company got a rate hike based on rising fuel costs. It's expected to go up another 40.00 per month this winter Prices have risen at the grocery store also in the past month. Considering the fact that I didn't get a raise for the past 3 years for the first time in 16 years (government, but the legislature that voted to not give us raise, gave themselves a 20.00/month raise. They've given themselves one all 3 years) means these rising prices are putting me back several years. I have been riding the bus since December and the price of bus fare has risen twice since then. Yes this is killing me in areas that are needs, not luxuries.

[W*GS]

[QUOTE=W*GS]How much impact does doubling of your fuel cost have on the retail price of a given product? Does your paying double in diesel mean my socks (or whatever) will double in price too?
[QUOTE]

it's not just the pair of socks...and no, they will not double in price. but they will increase - that is the point...everything will increase...a little here, a little there, and before you know it, your daily expenses have increased. most increases will come at the pump...but there will be increases across the board...factor it all in, and there will be a pinch. most people will make it, and adjust, which is fine...but we are going to feel some pain before it happens.

Thanks for a sane response, instead of the usual hysteria by the usual suspects.

Yes, higher fuel prices will push general price inflation higher, but it's not a disaster.

[W*GS]

Someone should also enlighten W*GS re: the extent to which our agriculture/food production is petroleum-dependent.

I'm quite well aware of that.

What do you propose to fix that, or lessen the impact of price increases in petroleum?

[W*GS]

As soon as big oil understand they are the way of the dinosaur

It's all big oil's fault? Why isn't it the fault of all Americans for using too much oil? Or is it that since we're all at fault, no-one is?

Is your sight that limited ? that you have to take a choice that a few make in comparision of a somthing that Everyone is forced into ?
come on W*GS you can do better ......

I thought I made it clear that our utter dependence on oil was going to cost us, more or less painfully, sooner or later. To some extent, that day has arrived.

What do you propose we do about our oil addiction?

[BRONCCRUSHFAN]

At what price per gallon of gasoline should we start to draw down the SPR?

How come other nations can "survive" much more expensive gas than we can?

Because they don't have the average soccer mom driving to the corner grocery store in her Escalade. I don't know about you W*GS, but I find it amazing how short sighted we have become as Americans. We forgot about how in the 70's, driving that boat with the monster V8, drove up the gas prices and put this country in a serious inflationary problem (not to mention the long lines at the pump). Then in the 80's when everyone was driving vehicles with smaller 4 cylinder engines, the gas prices dropped. Simple supply side economics. Then in the 90's, we forgot all about the 70's, and started buying the Escalades, Hummers, and Ford Ecuadors (because it was the size of a small country). The market has reacted to our short sightedness. Personally, I hope that the gas prices increase to $4.00 a gallon, so that the consumer market will react by using less gasoline, and getting rid of that mentality of hoping into the Suburban to go to the corner Wal-Mart. By having Bush step in and put a freeze on the gas prices, will not allow the consumer market to take its natural course. It would be like the guy who gets quarterly bonuses in his paycheck, he begins to count on that as income, and the first quarter he doesn't receive that bonus, he's hosed.

[Spider]

It's all big oil's fault? Why isn't it the fault of all Americans for using too much oil? Or is it that since we're all at fault, no-one is?
gee I guess we do have to cover this ..... Big oil+Detriot= Bad marriage , Do you remember the Tucker Torpedo ? it is no seceret Oil and the Big 3 have good relationship ..... As for we the people ,Damn right we are without blame , just like with guns there W*GS , we buy the product on the Market .... Just likesometimes you need a big gun , sometimes you need a big horse with torque ..... Like I say , there is more then just your world bro , you have no Idea why alot of people buy the autos they do ..........



I thought I made it clear that our utter dependence on oil was going to cost us, more or less painfully, sooner or later. To some extent, that day has arrived.
Kudos ...... now if you can tell me what this has to do with your analogy , I will pronounce you a super genius ;D

What do you propose we do about our oil addiction?
Now W*GS , if I had the answer I wouldnt be pushing 36 tonnes of steel up and down the super slab , I would be wearing a White coat and talking about how Warp Drive wont work with other nerds around the water cooler ........

[W*GS]

Because they don't have the average soccer mom driving to the corner grocery store in her Escalade. I don't know about you W*GS, but I find it amazing how short sighted we have become as Americans. We forgot about how in the 70's, driving that boat with the monster V8, drove up the gas prices and put this country in a serious inflationary problem (not to mention the long lines at the pump). Then in the 80's when everyone was driving vehicles with smaller 4 cylinder engines, the gas prices dropped. Simple supply side economics. Then in the 90's, we forgot all about the 70's, and started buying the Escalades, Hummers, and Ford Ecuadors (because it was the size of a small country). The market has reacted to our short sightedness. Personally, I hope that the gas prices increase to $4.00 a gallon, so that the consumer market will react by using less gasoline, and getting rid of that mentality of hoping into the Suburban to go to the corner Wal-Mart. By having Bush step in and put a freeze on the gas prices, will not allow the consumer market to take its natural course. It would be like the guy who gets quarterly bonuses in his paycheck, he begins to count on that as income, and the first quarter he doesn't receive that bonus, he's hosed.

BINGO.

[Mile High Shack]

Because they don't have the average soccer mom driving to the corner grocery store in her Escalade. I don't know about you W*GS, but I find it amazing how short sighted we have become as Americans. We forgot about how in the 70's, driving that boat with the monster V8, drove up the gas prices and put this country in a serious inflationary problem (not to mention the long lines at the pump). Then in the 80's when everyone was driving vehicles with smaller 4 cylinder engines, the gas prices dropped. Simple supply side economics. Then in the 90's, we forgot all about the 70's, and started buying the Escalades, Hummers, and Ford Ecuadors (because it was the size of a small country). The market has reacted to our short sightedness. Personally, I hope that the gas prices increase to $4.00 a gallon, so that the consumer market will react by using less gasoline, and getting rid of that mentality of hoping into the Suburban to go to the corner Wal-Mart. By having Bush step in and put a freeze on the gas prices, will not allow the consumer market to take its natural course. It would be like the guy who gets quarterly bonuses in his paycheck, he begins to count on that as income, and the first quarter he doesn't receive that bonus, he's hosed.

this I agree with

[W*GS]

gee I guess we do have to cover this ..... Big oil+Detriot= Bad marriage , Do you remember the Tucker Torpedo ? it is no seceret Oil and the Big 3 have good relationship .....

And remember the late 1970s, when Detroit wasn't producing the cars Americans wanted to buy, and Honda, Toyota, and Datsun kicked Detroit's ass? If Detroit produces cars Americans won't buy, then they'll make cars we will buy. They've learned that lesson before - they can learn it again.

Or are vehicles like Escalades, Explorers, Mountaineers, big pickups, etc., just too tempting, and we're helpless to stop buying them?

As for we the people ,Damn right we are without blame , just like with guns there W*GS , we buy the product on the Market .... Just likesometimes you need a big gun , sometimes you need a big horse with torque .....

We, as consumers, are not without power here. There are plenty of alternatives to spending $40,000-$50,000 or more on a gas-guzzling SUV. If we don't buy them, Detroit won't build them.

Is it clear that a lot of the same people who are panicking over gas prices, and who are complaining mightily about them, have only themselves to blame?

Like I say , there is more then just your world bro , you have no Idea why alot of people buy the autos they do ..........

Let me put it this way - if Joe American truly needs an SUV that gets 10-12 mpg, then he needs to quit bitching about gas prices, and accept them as part of the cost and consequences of owning a gas-guzzler. If he thinks hard about it, and realizes that he really doesn't need that SUV, and he shoulda bought something else, well, he needs to get rid of that SUV and use a vehicle (or some other form of transportation) that's friendlier to his wallet.

All of our choices have consequences - and since we are free to make choices, we have to take responsibility for the consequences of those choices.

Now W*GS , if I had the answer I wouldnt be pushing 36 tonnes of steel up and down the super slab , I would be wearing a White coat and talking about how Warp Drive wont work with other nerds around the water cooler ........

Sigh.

[BRONCCRUSHFAN]

gee I guess we do have to cover this ..... Big oil+Detriot= Bad marriage , Do you remember the Tucker Torpedo ? it is no seceret Oil and the Big 3 have good relationship ..... As for we the people ,Damn right we are without blame , just like with guns there W*GS , we buy the product on the Market .... Just likesometimes you need a big gun , sometimes you need a big horse with torque ..... Like I say , there is more then just your world bro , you have no Idea why alot of people buy the autos they do ........

Spider. I agree, in principal, with your analogy "Big Oil + Detroit = Bad Marriage," however it goes much deeper than that. You have the problem of less refineries in America having to produce more gasoline; which in turn raises the cost of refining. With the tighter EPA standards, as well as environmental groups screaming how refineries are dangerous to the environment; there aren't anymore refineries being built to accomodate the demand. Then there is the fact that China is becoming a larger player in the global economic market, and they are buying oil at an astonomical rate. We are basically paying for that increased demand in the global marketplace. Detroit hasn't helped matters, by building the large gas guzzling vehicles, but they are just complying with what the market demands. However, by putting a freeze on gasoline prices, you are not allowing the market to adjust to the constraint. If you freeze gasoline at $3.00 a gallon, people will just alter their budgets to that price, instead of altering their driving habits or purchasing habits. I see it everyday commuting to work. Men and women driving these huge vehicles alone, to their place of work, when there is enough room to place 6 more coworkers with them. It's not the family with 4 or 5 children driving these huge vehicles that peeve me, its the families with one child that hop into their large SUV, or Hemi charger, to drive to the corner store for a gallon of milk.

[orangeatheist]

I'm so glad I bought a home 2 miles from my work. I drive a Honda Civic. I filled it up about a week and a half ago and I still have more than a quarter tank of gas. We bought a new car two years ago as the family expanded (me, wife and two kids) and we needed more room for hauling stuff around. I'm a child of the 70's and I remember my dad moaning about the gas prices and how fast he dumped his Ford for a VW Rabbit. So, when it came time to "upsize" my own family vehicle I decided on the Toyota Matrix. Roomy. Big enough to get all the jobs done. And good gas milage. That was one of the key factors in buying that car. Gas milage. I'm so grateful for my own good foresight!

Yeah, I don't feel a damn bit sorry for folks in their gas-guzzling SUV's. My kids don't need to be that high off the ground or that far away from each other in their seats. They also don't need to watch DVD's while we go to Park Meadows.

[Spider]

So many it isnt in my world , so screw the guys with the big motors ......
You city folk have always been that way ...... some of us use big powerfull machines for work , machines that are not cheap , and Machines that have a direct effect on your life ....
How does the farmer get the cow , pig , other live stock to the market ( hint it isnt mass transit or a cab)
How does the farmer plant crops( hint it isnt with a shovel)
Fire and rescue , can you see them boys carrying all they need in a Datsun ?
How do the goods that you run to the store for get on the shelfs ( hint the Keebler elves are not real)
But then since you dont need a big horse to hell with fuel Prices Hilarious! . thats fine , but you guys are the first ones to bítch and moan when a loaf of bread is 3.50 .... and say what in the hell is this world comming to .........

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

We forgot about how in the 70's, driving that boat with the monster V8, drove up the gas prices and put this country in a serious inflationary problem (not to mention the long lines at the pump).

Actually, it was the OPEC oil embargo that caused these problems in the 70s.

(Which is not to say, in retrospect, that the muscle cars with the V8s were not a bad idea.)

[W*GS]

So many it isnt in my world , so screw the guys with the big motors ......

You'll pass along the costs of your gas anyway, so what do you care what we effete city slickers say?

If you'd get past the "Don't you dare make me spend more than I have to for my dually" mentality you've got...

[BRONCCRUSHFAN]

So many it isnt in my world , so screw the guys with the big motors ......
You city folk have always been that way ...... some of us use big powerfull machines for work , machines that are not cheap , and Machines that have a direct effect on your life ....
How does the farmer get the cow , pig , other live stock to the market ( hint it isnt mass transit or a cab)
How does the farmer plant crops( hint it isnt with a shovel)
Fire and rescue , can you see them boys carrying all they need in a Datsun ?
How do the goods that you run to the store for get on the shelfs ( hint the Keebler elves are not real)
But then since you dont need a big horse to hell with fuel Prices Hilarious! . thats fine , but you guys are the first ones to bítch and moan when a loaf of bread is 3.50 .... and say what in the hell is this world comming to .........

Spider. I agree with you that the gas and desiel prices affect our economy as a whole. However, how much longer can we continue to survive on oil, domestic or foreign? If we release our reserves, where are we going to refine it? I understand that people, like yourself, have a job to do, and that it is getting more expensive to do that job. However, I would challenge that farmers, trains, and OTR guys consume a small percentage of our nations fuel consumption. If the "city folk" as you call them, were to change their driving habits and choice of vehicles, the demand would drop. As demand drops, so do prices. However, if you don't escalate prices to force the majority of drivers, or the "city folk," to get rid of their Escalades that get a whopping 8 miles to the gallon, you place the entire American economy at the will of OPEC. It's a ****ty deal, and I know I can preach all I want because my Corolla gets 40 MPG, but that is law of economics. I don't like the idea of a $3.50 loaf of bread as much as the next guy, but dipping into our reserves or sending our boys to die in the middle east to secure our energy interests is not the answer either.

[BRONCCRUSHFAN]

Actually, it was the OPEC oil embargo that caused these problems in the 70s.

(Which is not to say, in retrospect, that the muscle cars with the V8s were not a bad idea.)

How was OPEC's oil embargo capable of hurting our economy in the 70's? and allowed companies like Toyota to flourish in the 80's, because Americans cannot get away from their love affair with the big V8.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

How was OPEC's oil embargo capable of hurting our economy in the 70's? and allowed companies like Toyota to flourish in the 80's, because Americans cannot get away from their love affair with the big V8.

I was agreeing with your point about the big V8s.

However, it was the embargo that caused the economic problems in the 70s you mentioned (just as high oil prices are starting to wreak havoc on our economy and cause inflation right now as we speak.)

The embargo had the same sort of effect on the economy as the current situation - the only difference is that the situation in the 70s was entirely political and man-made, whereas the current situation is probably part politics and part supply/demand and depletion-related.

[BRONCCRUSHFAN]

I was agreeing with your point about the big V8s.

However, it was the embargo that caused the economic problems in the 70s you mentioned (just as high oil prices are starting to wreak havoc on our economy and cause inflation right now as we speak.)

The embargo had the same sort of effect on the economy as the current situation - the only difference is that the situation in the 70s was entirely political and man-made, whereas the current situation is probably part politics and part supply/demand and depletion-related.

I have no doubt in my mind that our involvement in the Middle east has motivated the OPEC cartel to restrict supply in some minor fashion. It just pisses me off that this whole mess could have been avoided, and people like Spider and other friends that I know are going to get hurt.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I have no doubt in my mind that our involvement in the Middle east has motivated the OPEC cartel to restrict supply in some minor fashion. It just pisses me off that this whole mess could have been avoided, and people like Spider and other friends that I know are going to get hurt.

Yep.

If we had continued the process of developing alternative energy sources and conservation measures in the 70s (which Carter started and Reagan derailed) we probably wouldn't be in this mess today. We definitely wouldn't have Americans dying in Iraq, that's for sure.

[W*GS]

If we had continued the process of developing alternative energy sources and conservation measures in the 70s (which Carter started and Reagan derailed) we probably wouldn't be in this mess today. We definitely wouldn't have Americans dying in Iraq, that's for sure.

On the one hand, you praise Clinton for cheap gas during his watch.

On this hand, you complain that gas wasn't expensive enough to encourage us to seek other forms of energy.

Which is it?

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

When corporatist shills like W*GS tell you that the cost of gasoline, "adjusted for Inflation" is not all that high, DON'T BUY IT. The fact is that wages since the 70s have been nearly stagnant for the vast majority of people. Sure, the skyrocketing incomes and plummeting tax burden of the top 1/3 have helped keep all prices and corporate profits rising, but the rest of the people have lost ground and are borrowing from their equity just to stay afloat.

So $4.00 a gallon is NOT like $1 a gallon in 1980 prices, because most folks who made $25K then are only making about $30K now.

[Spider]

You'll pass along the costs of your gas anyway, so what do you care what we effete city slickers say?

If you'd get past the "Don't you dare make me spend more than I have to for my dually" mentality you've got...
I see so somehow in your little world , I dont have to pay more at the store either ....... I will try the W*GS super saver coupon ... dont think it will work ...... Dude you are still not getting it , the dont make me pay more for my dually mentality effects all of us , even me son .... From the market , to buying Pants 3 sizes to big for my son ( I guess it is the style ) to my daughter and her wardrobe ......

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I see so somehow in your little world , I dont have to pay more at the store either ....... I will try the W*GS super saver coupon ... dont think it will work ...... Dude you are still not getting it , the dont make me pay more for my dually mentality effects all of us , even me son .... From the market , to buying Pants 3 sizes to big for my son ( I guess it is the style ) to my daughter and her wardrobe ......

:laugh:

Diebold Boy is really tanking now...

..while poll respondents primarily blamed oil companies for rising gas prices -- 84 percent blamed them a great deal or a moderate amount -- 63 percent also blamed the Bush administration.

There's evidence the issue could hurt Republicans in next year's midterm election. Fifty-seven percent of respondents assigned either a great deal or a moderate amount of blame for the gas-price spiral to Republicans in Congress, compared with 46 percent who blamed Democrats. That may have contributed to political pressure from Republicans to release oil from the Strategic Petroleum Reserve, which the administration approved Wednesday.

On his handling of the economy overall, President Bush got a 60 percent negative rating in the poll -- his worst economic rating ever -- while only 38 percent of respondents approved. On gas prices, 20 percent approved of his handling, while 76 percent disapproved.

http://money.cnn.com/2005/08/31/news/economy/poll_gas_prices/

[Bronco9798]

I never really pay attention to gas prices. I need it. I pay for it. People boo-hooing over gas prices. What good does it do. Fill-R-Up and move on.

[Bronco9798]

:laugh:

Diebold Boy is really tanking now...

..while poll respondents primarily blamed oil companies for rising gas prices -- 84 percent blamed them a great deal or a moderate amount -- 63 percent also blamed the Bush administration.

There's evidence the issue could hurt Republicans in next year's midterm election. Fifty-seven percent of respondents assigned either a great deal or a moderate amount of blame for the gas-price spiral to Republicans in Congress, compared with 46 percent who blamed Democrats. That may have contributed to political pressure from Republicans to release oil from the Strategic Petroleum Reserve, which the administration approved Wednesday.

On his handling of the economy overall, President Bush got a 60 percent negative rating in the poll -- his worst economic rating ever -- while only 38 percent of respondents approved. On gas prices, 20 percent approved of his handling, while 76 percent disapproved.

http://money.cnn.com/2005/08/31/news/economy/poll_gas_prices/

Do you ever shut up? I was just curious. You rant and rave and bitch all day. Go do something productive with your life instead of sitting around in a forum bitching all the time. People like you is what's wrong with America. You're a bumbling, stumbling idiot.

You ever read what you write and think you sound intelligent? You're basically an idiot.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Do you ever shut up? I was just curious. You rant and rave and b**** all day. Go do something productive with your life instead of sitting around in a forum b****ing all the time. People like you is what's wrong with America. You're a bumbling, stumbling idiot.

You ever read what you write and think you sound intelligent? You're basically an idiot.

Yo Einstein:

If you don't want to be confronted with all those pesky, inconvenient facts about the crooked and incompetent administration you're backing, then you might want to steer clear of forums with names like "War, Religion, and Politics."

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I never really pay attention to gas prices. I need it. I pay for it. People boo-hooing over gas prices. What good does it do. Fill-R-Up and move on.

Conservative Idiot-to-English Translation:

"I can still afford gas - f_ck everyone who can't."

[Bronco9798]

Conservative Idiot-to-English Translation:

"I can still afford gas - f_ck everyone who can't."

Yeah, it's called having a job. Try it, instead of bitching all day. Go better yourself instead of blaming america for your failures. It's a free country. Something you don't seem to understand. People like you that sit around and bitch all day but do nothing to make things better for yourself make me sick.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Yeah, it's called having a job. Try it, instead of b****ing all day.

I have a job, and I'm doing fine, thanks.

Problem is, you're a shallow, self-absorbed idiot who doesn't stop to think about how skyrocketing oil prices affect others and affect the economy in general.

Go better yourself instead of blaming america for your failures.

How are skyrocketing oil prices my failure, jackass?

It's a free country. Something you don't seem to understand.

What does "it's a free country" have to do with the subject at hand, i.e., the price of oil?

People like you that sit around and b**** all day but do nothing to make things better for yourself make me sick.

People like you defend incompetent, corrupt idiots like Bush who make things worse for everyone, and then you cop a fake, self-righteous attitude about it.

Disgusting.

[Bronco9798]

Boo-Hoo.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

South Carolina running out of gas too. So how's that president working out for you, red staters?

http://www.disasternews.net/news/news.php?articleid=2800

Disaster. North Carolina gas stations running dry. Where is Bush?

http://www.citizen-times.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050831/NEWS01/50831014/1001

[Bronco9798]

South Carolina running out of gas too. So how's that president working out for you, red staters?

http://www.disasternews.net/news/news.php?articleid=2800

Disaster. North Carolina gas stations running dry. Where is Bush?

http://www.citizen-times.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050831/NEWS01/50831014/1001

There you go again, blaming someone else. Get a life man.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

West Virginia county police will run out of gas by Friday

The Transit Authority in Huntington, which supplies fuel to its fleet of buses, ambulances for Cabell County Emergency Services and to the Cabell County Sheriff's Department, only has enough gasoline for police cruisers until Friday, Vickie Shaffer, TTA general manager, told The Herald-Dispatch for Wednesday's edition.

http://www.wkyt.com/Global/story.asp?S=3789327

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

According to this Bronco9798 idiot, those West Virginia county police just need to get a job, get a life, and stop blaming America for their failures.

[Spider]

I never really pay attention to gas prices. I need it. I pay for it. People boo-hooing over gas prices. What good does it do. Fill-R-Up and move on.
LOL . is that so ..Wait untill you pump 200 -300 Gallons mr Money bags . hell I pump 100-200 gallons now , I never let my rig fall below ¼ of a tank ...... But since you can gas up without batting an eye .. throw some my way , I will let you chip in ........

[Bronco9798]

LOL . is that so ..Wait untill you pump 200 -300 Gallons mr Money bags . hell I pump 100-200 gallons now , I never let my rig fall below ¼ of a tank ...... But since you can gas up without batting an eye .. throw some my way , I will let you chip in ........


Spider, just telling you how it is for me. I pull up, pump, pay and move on. I'm not going to bitch about it. I have to have it. I may not like it but I'm not going to bitch about it.

[Bronco9798]

According to this Bronco9798 idiot, those West Virginia county police just need to get a job, get a life, and stop blaming America for their failures.


Sorry, not aware of their situation.

[Spider]

Spider, just telling you how it is for me. I pull up, pump, pay and move on. I'm not going to b**** about it. I have to have it. I may not like it but I'm not going to b**** about it.
Thats fine , but for some of us it dont work that way ..... Runs that used to cost 500.00 in Fuel now cost a thousand ... Sorry thats how it is , I get 10% fuel sur charge off the top , so like last run paid 3 grand from Casper to El-Paso ... 300.00 fuel charge .....doesnt cut it .....
you can speak for how it is in your world , thats cool , but in mine it doesnt work .. Bro ..... I see no reason for the price hike .....

[Bronco9798]

Thats fine , but for some of us it dont work that way ..... Runs that used to cost 500.00 in Fuel now cost a thousand ... Sorry thats how it is , I get 10% fuel sur charge off the top , so like last run paid 3 grand from Casper to El-Paso ... 300.00 fuel charge .....doesnt cut it .....
you can speak for how it is in your world , thats cool , but in mine it doesnt work .. Bro ..... I see no reason for the price hike .....

Exactly, no need for it. My whole point was I'm not bitching about it. I don't drive a rig. I have a chrysler concorde and a small chevy truck. I live 2 miles from my job. I understand your point. Personally, I just don't bitch about it.

[Spider]

Exactly, no need for it. My whole point was I'm not b****ing about it. I don't drive a rig. I have a chrysler concorde and a small chevy truck. I live 2 miles from my job. I understand your point. Personally, I just don't b**** about it.
well I bítch about it , mainly it goes past just gas prices , everything gets effected ..... All Prices get effected ..... Food , Clothes , appliences your cable rates Cable companies put on alot of miles on Trucks ,Vans etc...... your rent ..
So I ask why let People gouge us and take it ?

[Bronco9798]

well I bítch about it , mainly it goes past just gas prices , everything gets effected ..... All Prices get effected ..... Food , Clothes , appliences your cable rates Cable companies put on alot of miles on Trucks ,Vans etc...... your rent ..
So I ask why let People gouge us and take it ?

And you will be bitching about till you die and nothing will change. True? You have a right to voice your opnion and you can. I just don't waste my time with it. Time is to short to sit around and bitch about it.

[Rohirrim]

It's clear to me that the present government of the United States exists for the sole purpose of funneling the wealth of this country to the top 5% of the economic pyramid. I don't need to spout a bunch of political science theory to back this up. I don't need statistics, polls, mathematical equations, or media jack offs to back this up. I only need one simple rule, created in 1974 for another corrupt president. "Follow the Money."

[Spider]

And you will be b****ing about till you die and nothing will change. True?
Nope ..... Hey look man if you are ok with getting gouged thats fine , but some of us dont take it , We call our congress men , we put heat on Trucstops , by being selective , you would literaly shít a brick if you saw the money a trucker brings into a truck stop .... We make our voices heard ......


You have a right to voice your opnion and you can. I just don't waste my time with it. Time is to short to sit around and b**** about it.
Wait untill you raise a family ...... you wont take getting screwed in stride .....

[Bronco9798]

Nope ..... Hey look man if you are ok with getting gouged thats fine , but some of us dont take it , We call our congress men , we put heat on Trucstops , by being selective , you would literaly shít a brick if you saw the money a trucker brings into a truck stop .... We make our voices heard ......



Wait untill you raise a family ...... you wont take getting screwed in stride .....


I have 3 daughters. 22, 19, and 11. I'v been married for 23 years man. I've done just fine. Productive girls and we have a good life.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

It's clear to me that the present government of the United States exists for the sole purpose of funneling the wealth of this country to the top 5% of the economic pyramid. I don't need to spout a bunch of political science theory to back this up. I don't need statistics, polls, mathematical equations, or media J-Os to back this up. I only need one simple rule, created in 1974 for another corrupt president. "Follow the Money."

Bingo.

The morons who support Bush essentially voted for what may be the most radical redistribution of wealth from the poor, the working class, and the middle class to the top 1% in American history.

[Spider]

Be back Later . have to scoot to Cheyenne ..... 180 miles @ 4.2 miles a gallon ......... ;D

[Spider]

I have 3 daughters. 22, 19, and 11. I'v been married for 23 years man. I've done just fine. Productive girls and we have a good life.
With Gas Prices the way they are now ? Damn ... I have 3 myself ,13,10,4 ,Stil growing , Out growing Clothes , shoes . you get the picture ......

[W*GS]

When corporatist shills like W*GS tell you that the cost of gasoline, "adjusted for Inflation" is not all that high, DON'T BUY IT. The fact is that wages since the 70s have been nearly stagnant for the vast majority of people.

"[S]ince the 70s"? And here I thought we all got richer under Clinton - as you've claimed many times.

So $4.00 a gallon is NOT like $1 a gallon in 1980 prices, because most folks who made $25K then are only making about $30K now.

If someone's wages have gone from $25K to $30K in 25 years, they've got far more problems than more-expensive gas.

Do you have any real proof for this sort of statement, or have you resorted to your oh-so-typical rhetorical excess?

[W*GS]

I see so somehow in your little world , I dont have to pay more at the store either ....... I will try the W*GS super saver coupon ... dont think it will work ...... Dude you are still not getting it , the dont make me pay more for my dually mentality effects all of us , even me son .... From the market , to buying Pants 3 sizes to big for my son ( I guess it is the style ) to my daughter and her wardrobe ......

You're rambling incoherently.

[Spider]

You're rambling incoherently.
Way to back peddal from the why do you care you pass off the cost of fuel statement ...... I shop the same stores as everyone else , buy the same products , again I am paying for the high fuel cost .....

[RaiderH8r]

Way to back peddal from the why do you care you pass off the cost of fuel statement ...... I shop the same stores as everyone else , buy the same products , again I am paying for the high fuel cost .....
Well that's just horsesh!t you dumb redneck hick ;D . I know you're on the five finger discount plan.

(Now THERE'S a bit of name calling) :notworthy

[Spider]

Well that's just horsesh!t you dumb redneck hick ;D . I know you're on the five finger discount plan.

(Now THERE'S a bit of name calling) :notworthy
I would prefer you quit insulting me from the frothing pie hole of youres you freaking loon ........ Thanks in advance and have a nice day ;D Hilarious!