Yet another sports writer who just dont get it?

[crazyhorse]

http://www.sportsnetwork.com/default.asp?c=kansascity&page=nfl/news/ABN3976167.htm

Denver Broncos 2005 Season Preview
By Tony Moss, NFL Editor

(Sports Network) - Someone needs to direct Denver Broncos head coach Mike Shanahan, general manager Ted Sundquist, and owner Pat Bowlen to a craps table.

Apparently, these guys like to gamble.

The Broncos' offseason was littered with risky personnel moves that had longtime fans of the franchise and NFL pundits alike scratching their heads.

Offensively, the team traded Reuben Droughns, the second time in as many years they had dealt a rusher coming off a 1,000-yard season. Mike Shanahan left his running game in the hands of the following players: Mike Anderson and Quentin Griffin, both of whom come off injuries that derailed them in 2004; second- year man Tatum Bell, who has 75 career attempts; former Giants failure Ron Dayne, who has averaged 3.5 yards per rush over his five-year career; and former Ohio State problem child Maurice Clarett, whose 40-time had to be clocked on a calendar at the NFL combine and who last carried a football in a meaningful situation during the 2002 season as a Buckeye.

Elsewhere on offense, Denver failed to grab the game-breaking wideout that most felt it needed via either the draft or free agency, but did welcome in 42-year-old Jerry Rice, who will be playing for his third team in two years.

On the other side of the ball, things got really weird.

The Broncos hired former Browns defensive line coach Andre Patterson, then decided to bring in all of his former students to ease the coach's transition to the Mile High City. Denver obtained ends Courtney Brown, Ebenezer Ekuban and tackles Michael Myers and Gerard Warren from a Cleveland team that went 4-12 a year ago.

In the secondary, Denver let starting cornerback Kelly Herndon and safety Kenoy Kennedy slip away, but used its first three picks of the 2005 draft on three less-than-elite college cornerbacks - Darrent Williams, Karl Paymah, Domonique Foxworth - and in training camp plucked Raiders castoff Marques Anderson to get into the safety mix.

If a majority of the moves pay off and the Broncos win their first playoff game since the retirement of John Elway, the joke will be on those of us who dare question the seemingly strange assembly of the 2005 roster. But if the naysayers are right, and things go poorly, a sea of orange-and-blue clad patrons at Invesco Field will have their fingers pointed directly at Shanahan, Sundquist, and Bowlen.

Below we take a capsule look at the 2005 edition of the Denver Broncos, with a personnel evaluation and prognosis included therein:

2004 RECORD: 10-6 (2nd, AFC West)

LAST PLAYOFF APPEARANCE: 2004, lost to Indianapolis, 49-24, in AFC Wild Card Game

COACH (RECORD): Mike Shanahan (101-59 in 10 seasons with Broncos, 109-71 overall)

OFFENSIVE COORDINATOR: Gary Kubiak

DEFENSIVE COORDINATOR: Larry Coyer

OFFENSIVE STAR: Jake Plummer, QB (4089 passing yards, 27 TD, 20 INT)

DEFENSIVE STAR: Champ Bailey, CB (81 tackles, 3 INT)

OFFENSIVE TEAM RANKS: 4th rushing, 6th passing, 9th scoring

DEFENSIVE TEAM RANKS: 4th rushing, 6th passing, t9th scoring

FIVE KEY GAMES: San Diego (9/18), Kansas City (9/26), New England (10/16), at Oakland (11/13), Baltimore (12/11)

KEY ADDITIONS: RB Ron Dayne (from Giants), RB Maurice Clarett (3rd Round, Ohio State), WR Jerry Rice (Seahawks), TE Stephen Alexander (Lions), G Cameron Spikes (Cardinals), T Anthony Clement (Cardinals), DE John Engelberger (49ers), DE Ebenezer Ekuban (Browns), DE Courtney Brown (Browns), DT Michael Myers (Browns), DT Gerard Warren (Browns), LB Keith Burns (Buccaneers), LB Ian Gold (Buccaneers), CB Darrent Williams (2nd Round, Oklahoma State), CB Karl Paymah (3rd Round, Washington State), CB Domonique Foxworth (3rd Round, Maryland), P Todd Sauerbrun (Panthers)

KEY DEPARTURES: RB Reuben Droughns (to Browns), RB Garrison Hearst (not tendered), G Dan Neil (released), DE Reggie Hayward (to Jaguars), NT Ellis Johnson (not tendered), LB Donnie Spragan (to Dolphins), S Kenoy Kennedy (to Lions), CB Kelly Herndon (to Seahawks), CB Willie Middlebrooks (to 49ers), P Jason Baker (to Panthers)

QB: Jake Plummer (4089 passing yards, 27 TD, 20 INT) posted career highs in yards and touchdowns a year ago, but his 20 interceptions were tied for the NFL lead and he antagonized Broncos fans with an obscene gesture in a late- season win over the Dolphins. In the interests of his own self-preservation, Plummer needs to cut down on the mistakes this year. The team appears set to cut ties with Danny Kanell, who has been the backup for the past two seasons but has a 49.1 passer rating as a Bronco. Either Bradlee Van Pelt, a Colorado State alumnus, or Matt Mauck, who spent time with Van Pelt on the practice squad last year, will have to step up and win the job from Kanell.

RB: The Broncos allowed 2004 surprise Reuben Droughns (1240 rushing yards, 32 receptions, 8 TD) to go the way of Clinton Portis before him, trading Droughns to the Browns for defensive linemen Ebenezer Ekuban and Michael Myers in late March. It stood to reason that the team would promote second-year man Tatum Bell (396 rushing yards, 3 TD) into Droughns' former spot following a solid rookie year, but instead Denver handed the job back to former 1,000-yard rusher Mike Anderson. The 31-year-old Anderson missed all of last season with a groin injury, and hasn't posted a 100-yard rushing game since 2001. Quentin Griffin (311 rushing yards, 10 receptions, 3 TD) struggled after being ordained the starter in the 2004 preseason, and missed the final 10 games with a knee injury. Griffin also missed the first half of the 2005 preseason while recovering from the injury. The Broncos took a chance on 1999 Heisman Trophy winner Ron Dayne (179 rushing yards, 1 TD with the Giants), who has never developed into a productive NFL running back but looked good early in the preseason. Third-round draft choice Maurice Clarett (Ohio State) battled injuries early in training camp and projects as a special-teamer until he gets back into proper game condition. With the glut of running backs, Denver probably only has room for one running back, and Kyle Johnson (9 receptions, 2 TD) will be the No. 1 guy there.

WR/TE: Though the Broncos' receiving corps has been criticized for lacking a big-play threat, Rod Smith (79 receptions, 7 TD) and Ashley Lelie (54 receptions, 7 TD) were both consistent enough to post 1,000-yard seasons in 2004. The emergence of Lelie, who led the league with a 20.1 average per reception, was particularly heartening to a team that had watched him underachieve in his first two years in the league. Jerry Rice (30 receptions, 429 yards, 3 TD with the Raiders and Seahawks) is determined to prove he has something left in the tank, but will turn 43 just prior to Week 6. Holdovers Darius Watts (31 receptions, 1 TD) and Charlie Adams should make the roster, meaning Triandos Luke (6 receptions) could be on his way out. At tight end, the club brought in Stephen Alexander (41 receptions, 1 TD with Detroit) to start, and holdovers Jeb Putzier (36 receptions, 2 TD) and Nate Jackson (8 receptions) should play prominent roles as backups.

OL: The Denver line has long been considered a team strength, and most of last year's unit returns in 2005. Left tackle Matt Lepsis, left guard Ben Hamilton, center Tim Nalen, and right tackle George Foster are all back after starting 16 games together a year ago. The biggest change is at right guard, where Cooper Carlisle, who started the final four games of 2004, takes over full- time for the departed Dan Neil. Tackle Anthony Clement and guard Cameron Spikes, both of whom started games for the Cardinals last year, are looking to catch on as backups. Dwayne Carswell, who has caught 190 passes in 11 seasons as a tight end at Denver, has been moved full-time to guard, and should make the roster. Sixth-round draft choice and guard Chris Myers (Miami (FL)) appears headed to the practice squad.

DL: There will be a great deal of focus on the situation here, as 75 percent of the Browns' 2004 opening day d-line will make the transition to Denver. End Courtney Brown (2 tackles with Cleveland), who missed the final 14 games of '04 with a foot injury, will start at left end opposite holdover Trevor Pryce (2 tackles). Pryce missed 14 games with a herniated disc in his lower back last season. The other two former Cleveland players in the starting lineup will be interior linemen Gerard Warren (19 tackles, 4 sacks with Cleveland) and Michael Myers (34 tackles, 1 sack). The fourth Brown, Ebenezer Ekuban (39 tackles, 8 sacks with Cleveland) is projected as a backup to Courtney Brown at left end. Former 49er John Engelberger (45 tackles, 6 sacks with San Francisco), obtained in a trade in mid-July, will be an insurance policy should Pryce go down again on the right side. Monsanto Pope (24 tackles, 1 sack) and Mario Fatafehi (20 tackles, 2.5 sacks), both of whom were starters last season, will now serve as backups at tackle. Holdovers Dorsett Davis, Anton Palepoi (19 tackles, 3 sacks), Luther Elliss (7 tackles) and Raylee Johnson (12 tackles, 1 sack) will struggle to make the roster.

LB: The lone defector on last year's starting linebacker unit is strong side man Donnie Spragan (67 tackles, 1 sack), who signed a free agent deal with the Dolphins. Back to assume his former weak side spot after a one-year stint in Tampa Bay is Ian Gold (71 tackles, 1 INT with the Buccaneers), who was released by the Bucs in March. Shifting from the weak side to the strong side is second-year man D.J. Williams (114 tackles, 2 sacks, 1 INT), who was impressive as a rookie. Back to patrol the middle is Al Wilson (104 tackles, 2.5 sacks, 2 INT), who will start for a seventh straight year in Denver. The primary backups will be youngsters Patrick Chukwurah (9 tackles, 1 sack) and Terry Pierce (5 tackles), with veteran Keith Burns returning after one season with Tampa Bay to anchor the special teams unit. Former starter Jashon Sykes will stick around if the team keeps seven linebackers.

DB: The Broncos made noise in the 2004 offseason by acquiring cornerback Champ Bailey (81 tackles, 3 INT) and free safety John Lynch (64 tackles, 2 sacks, 1 INT), and those two players are the only ones left from last year's starting unit. Strong safety Kenoy Kennedy (87 tackles, 2 sacks, 1 INT) is now a Lion, which moves Nick Ferguson (34 tackles) back into the starting lineup he was a part of during most of 2003. Kelly Herndon (87 tackles, 2 INT) defected to the Seahawks, prompting the club to move second-year man Lenny Walls (22 tackles) into the starting slot there. The three rookies - Darrent Williams (2nd Round, Oklahoma State), Karl Paymah (3rd Round, Washington State), and Domonique Foxworth (3rd Round, Maryland) - will lie in wait in the event of an injury to or inconsistency from one of the starters. Jeremy LeSueur, a third-round draft choice in 2004 who missed all of last season with a hernia, will be a backup at safety. Sam Brandon (10 tackles) and training camp acquisition Marques Anderson (72 tackles, 1 INT with Oakland) will push for time there as well. Roc Alexander (18 tackles), who started one game as a rookie last season, could be a victim of the final cut.

SPECIAL TEAMS: Kicker Jason Elam (29-34 FG, 42-42 XP) shows no signs of slowing down at the age of 35, but hasn't kicked off since 2002. Rookie Paul Ernster (7th Round, Northern Arizona) has been brought in to fill that role this season. The team has a new punter in Todd Sauerbrun (44.1 avg. with the Panthers), a three-time Pro Bowler with a big leg who has been troubled off the field throughout his career. Rookie Darrent Williams had three punt returns for touchdowns while at Oklahoma State, and will be given an opportunity to win that job. Williams and Triandos Luke (20.4 kickoff return avg.) are probably the top candidates to bring back kickoffs, provided Luke makes the team.

PROGNOSIS: Denver has made a host of changes to its roster, which doesn't mean the club has upgraded its talent level. In fact, the Broncos look a tad weaker in the backfield, on the defensive line, and in the secondary, which doesn't bode well in a division that looks vastly improved across the board. Why the organization brass thinks it can squeeze production out of disappointments like Courtney Brown, Gerard Warren, Ron Dayne, and Maurice Clarett is apparent only to them. The Broncos have enough talent to ensure that they won't be a train wreck, but expecting this club to reach the playoffs after its rolleroaster of offseason personnel activity seems a stretch. In fact, Denver's first losing record since 1999 could well be imminent.


08/26 19:07:55 ET

[Bob's your Information Minister]

I think he gets it.

[OrangeShadow]

KEY DEPARTURES: Jason Baker


rofl

[RustDragon]

This whole article pisses me off. The worst is the writer questioning Denver on trading Reuben Droughns. Haven't we proven ourselves enough in the run game over the last 10 years to stop people from questioning any running back moves we make?????

[crazyhorse]

This whole article pisses me off. The worst is the writer questioning Denver on trading Reuben Droughns. Haven't we proven ourselves enough in the run game over the last 10 years to stop people from questioning any running back moves we make?????

With the recent situation with Maurice, it would seem that he is probably right. I mean, which one would you rather have right now? Clarrett, or Droughns?

[Hercules Rockefeller]

He makes some good points, but a lot of his conclusions seem like pre-conceived notions from his beliefs before he sat down and actually analyzed the team.

"Most" did not feel Denver had to go out and get a game-breaking WR. That's a nice straw man though. Maybe someone to become more of a 3rd WR threat (Rice, expected progression of Watts in his 2nd season), but no one thought a new starter was needed.

Anyone who thinks Denver's DL is a tad weaker, truly did not do their research to see who was on the line last year because that line was terrible.

Dayne became the NCAA's all-time leading rusher in a rushing system like Denver's. Little research there would allow the writer to realize why the Broncos went after him.

Vastly improved division across the board? Bolts made no moves and their "vast" improvement is supposed to come from 2 1st round picks. Raiders acquired Moss and Jordan, and let their defense slip even further. Hard to say that the Raiders vastly improved when they're probably going to be giving up around 30 points a game. Chiefs are about the only team that can be said definitely improved over last season, but it still remains to be seen whether the adjective "vast" can be used to describe it.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

With the recent situation with Maurice, it would seem that he is probably right. I mean, which one would you rather have right now? Clarrett, or Droughns?

I mean who would you rather have, Portis or Anderson, Bell, Q, and Droughns?

Guess that one worked out. Anyone questioning a Denver move at RB is desperate for an issue with this team. Shanahan has the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise with his RB moves.

[crazyhorse]

He makes some good points, but a lot of his conclusions seem like pre-conceived notions from his beliefs before he sat down and actually analyzed the team.

"Most" did not feel Denver had to go out and get a game-breaking WR. That's a nice straw man though. Maybe someone to become move of a 3rd WR threat (Rice, expected progression of Watts in his 2nd season), but no one thought a new starter was needed.

Anyone who thinks Denver's DL is a tad weaker, truly did not do their research to see who was on the line last year because that line was terrible.

Dayne became the NCAA's all-time leading rusher in a rushing system like Denver's. Little research there would allow the writer to realize why the Broncos went after him.

Vastly improved division across the board? Bolts made no moves and their "vast" improvement is supposed to come from 2 1st round picks. Raiders acquired Moss and Jordan, and let their defense slip even further. Hard to say that the Raiders vastly improved when they're probably going to be giving up around 30 points a game. Chiefs are about the only team that can be said definitely improved over last season, but it still remains to be seen whether the adjective "vast" can be used to describe it.

So....what were the good points?

[crazyhorse]

I mean who would you rather have, Portis or Anderson, Bell, Q, and Droughns?

Guess that one worked out. Anyone questioning a Denver move at RB is desperate for an issue with this team. Shanahan has the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise with his RB moves.

Yeah, I guess no one has the right to question Maurice Clarrett over Droughns.

Unless Clarrett get's cut, of course.

To answer your question, Portis. What's your point?

[Spider]

No he doesnt get it , not even close ... Every Game breaking wide out enjoys the same thing , a T.E. that controls the hash marks ....take Drew Brees in Charger land , Did Brees all of the sudden get it ? or did having a TE like Antonio Gates help ?
on offense , you have to control the Hashmarks ....... Defense , everything Depends on the Dline and the safty ( or who ever is making the secondary calls ) you are only as good as the pressure you get .....

[Hercules Rockefeller]

So....what were the good points?

His regurgitation of the stats in his unit-by-unit stuff wasn't bad

[Mediator12]

Great analysis for a copy and paste article. OL HAS Depth??? Reuben Droughns the starting Fullback a year ago gets traded and that's a LOSS??? The DL is weaker with Five more talented players to work With??? Herndon leaves PROMPTING Walls to be the starter??? No Big Play threat at WR when We had 20 30+ yd plays and 10 TD's from over thirty yards???

Now I understand the crap you put out here if you take this seriously. Look at all the Key acquisitions of the PATS the last four years. They got players that upgraded their talent level and could play THEIR schemes. NOT one Marquee FA. Finally the FO, stopped swinging for the fences with hit and MISS big names like Gardener and found talent in five DL for the price of a backup RB/FB, a fourth round draft pick, and a system RDE.

Keep trying crazyhorse and one day you may actually have a point.

[Perry1977]

He also says Anderson has not had a 100 yard rushing game since 2001. This, of course, is untrue. Anderson broke the 100 yard mark in a single half in last years preseason game against the Seahawks. Now, if he said regular season game, he'd be right.

Anyways, poorly written overall, with a fair share of grammatical errors. :captain:

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Every Game breaking wide out enjoys the same thing , a T.E. that controls the hash marks

What a load of crap. T.O. doesn't have one in Philly, and didn't have one in San Francisco.

Moss? You could make a case for Wiggins, but not really, and they didn't play together that long.

Anyway, his point IS bull****. The Donks are fine at WR.

[crazyhorse]

Great analysis for a copy and paste article. OL HAS Depth??? Reuben Droughns the starting Fullback a year ago gets traded and that's a LOSS??? The DL is weaker with Five more talented players to work With??? Herndon leaves PROMPTING Walls to be the starter??? No Big Play threat at WR when We had 20 30+ yd plays and 10 TD's from over thirty yards???

Now I understand the crap you put out here if you take this seriously. Look at all the Key acquisitions of the PATS the last four years. They got players that upgraded their talent level and could play THEIR schemes. NOT one Marquee FA. Finally the FO, stopped swinging for the fences with hit and MISS big names like Gardener and found talent in five DL for the price of a backup RB/FB, a fourth round draft pick, and a system RDE.

Keep trying crazyhorse and one day you may actually have a point.

I didn't write it. But it isn't hard to see that it touched a nerve. Why is that?

[crazyhorse]

He also says Anderson has not had a 100 yard rushing game since 2001. This, of course, is untrue. Anderson broke the 100 yard mark in a single half in last years preseason game against the Seahawks. Now, if he said regular season game, he'd be right.

Anyways, poorly written overall, with a fair share of grammatical errors. :captain:

This post is hilarious.

How was the spelling, and punctuasion.

[Spider]

What a load of crap. T.O. doesn't have one in Philly, and didn't have one in San Francisco.

Moss? You could make a case for Wiggins, but not really, and they didn't play together that long.
I see , and there is a time table on this combo ? what is it a year ? 2 ? 5 years before it works ?
what does game breaking mean to you ?
then we have to agree on what makes a TE good ?
Catching ? Blocking ? combination of the 2 ?
L.J. Smith TE for the Eagles , Seems to be doing somthing right .......
Now TO had a poor TE in ninerland , and well we all saw how well the niners did

[Perry1977]

This post is hilarious.

How was the spelling, and punctuasion.


Not quite as bad as yours, but you're doing it for free. ;)

[Spider]

oh and Boob , I wont bring up Klinesaucer ....

[BroncoBuff]

http://www.sportsnetwork.com/default.asp?c=kansascity&page=nfl/news/ABN3976167.htm

Denver Broncos 2005 Season Preview
By :dummy: Tony Moss, NFL Editor :dummy:

(Sports Network) - Someone needs to direct Denver Broncos head coach Mike Shanahan, general manager Ted Sundquist, and owner Pat Bowlen to a craps table.

Apparently, these guys like to gamble. . . . expecting this club to reach the playoffs after its rolleroaster of offseason personnel activity seems a stretch. In fact, Denver's first losing record since 1999 could well be imminent.

08/26 19:07:55 ET

LOSING RECORD?! In what parallel universe is this even an 8-8 team?!

Idiots.

Why do all these pundits keep acting like losing Droughns was some sort of "crippling blow"?! And for that matter, why do they think the Clarett pick meant the team was somehow "banking on him to produce." He's the poster-child for the Practice Squad - out of ball 2 years, but maybe an upside. He was NEVER going to play! HELLO?

LISTEN UP, NATIONAL NFL PUND-IDIOTS! - CLARETT WAS A FLYER PICK!! ... taken w/ a surprise compensatory pick they didn't think they'd get! (The Clarett and I think Paymah(?) picks were for Bertrand Berry (sob), and Ian Gold! . . .tee hee . . . ;D )

Well, these idiots might just motivate . . . maybe?

[Mediator12]

I didn't write it. But it isn't hard to see that it touched a nerve. Why is that?

Because someone got paid to do that article and they took five minutes to research it.

[NaptownChief]

These guys just hate you and aren't playing fair.

[Spider]

These guys just hate you and aren't playing fair.
I think you are right ....... We should pull a Chief and bring in Gunther and proclaim him the savior ....... Denver media wont have much to piss and moan about after that move

[crazyhorse]

Because someone got paid to do that article and they took five minutes to research it.

When researching it, he probably just read every other article written about the Broncos tis off season. I think he's probably just picking on you guiys. The whole world just hates you.

[NaptownChief]

I think you are right ....... We should pull a Chief and bring in Gunther and proclaim him the savior ....... Denver media wont have much to piss and moan about after that move



Nah, they would still hate you and write mean, nasty things.

[gunns]

Another writer that will probably be eating a big helping of crow. I, personally, like it. After the 96 season Shanahan made a slew of changes and the media was on his butt on how he could make those kind of changes to a 13-3 team. It worked.

Every year the media dawgs on us because we don't get that high caliber wide out. This is a defensive league. You have to have a defense that will create turnovers, stop the run, cover the pass. We needed help in the turnovers. You can have an offensive juggernaut but if you don't have that defense it's all for not. See the Chiefs and Colts. And at least we didn't break the bank in making those improvements, which I think will be exactly that on defense. Crow is cooking.

[NaptownChief]

Crow is cooking.



That is for certain...Now it is just a matter of who is eating it...all these sports writers or all you Donk fans.

[Spider]

Nah, they would still hate you and write mean, nasty things.
hmm... I got it ..We make Shanny cry , like another coach does ..... The media will see they are hurting Shanny feekings and stop .........

[crazyhorse]

Nah, they would still hate you and write mean, nasty things.

Haven't you heard? The Broncos are currently "flying under the radar".

[gunns]

That is for certain...Now it is just a matter of who is eating it...all these sports writers or all you Donk fans.

Do you guys have any leftovers? We could add to the pot.

[Spider]

Do you guys have any leftovers? We could add to the pot.
LOL ....After that Gunther fiasco , they have plenty of Crow

[crazyhorse]

LOL ....After that Gunther fiasco , they have plenty of Crow

How do you think Gunther will do in his second year? Robinson had what, 3?

[Spider]

How do you think Gunther will do in his second year? Robinson had what, 3?
what you left off was the 13-3 Under grob to 7-9 under Goonther .....
But interesting question , . it will be one of those wait and see things ......

[Rock Chalk]

Fair criticisms of our team I say.

I dont agree with some of the things in that article, but the question marks around the D-line, no matter what my brethren try to spin, are there. Pryce is the only proven commodity on the line...again. The other guys have all the potential in the world to be all-stars, but have not yet proven anything to anyone and thus, are question marks. We may well have a worse D-line than last year, however, we may have one of the most dominant D-line's in Denver's history this year. Time will tell. Needless to say, the criticisms garnered by various media outlets is not unjustified.

Lets focus on Brown and Warren. Now, I know there is tons of potential there, I know there is a possibility of them just needing a change of scenery (and with Warren my hopes are high, Brown not so high). However, you can also look at this and say "Well, this really looks like another Daryl Gardner move". Think about it, a guy with a ton of potential but "issues".

As for the Clarett pick. I just wish the Chef fans knew what the hell they were talking about. Look, when your RB coach, who just churned out five different 1000 yard backs, wants to take on a project in MoC, you tend to let the guy get what he wants. Afterall, he has done his job effectively. So what that the media thinks it was a bad move. It might have been. But the fact is, Bobby Turner wanted MoC, for whatever reason and, IMO, I will trust in Bobby more than I will any media outlet or stupid mullet having Chef fan.

Denver did not regress this offseason. Worst case scenario (assuming no injuries to key players), we finish 9-7 or 10-6 and make no progress forward, but do not regress back.

Id like to say KC and Jokeland are going to regress but when you are already at the bottom of the cesspool, its hard to get any lower.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

I see , and there is a time table on this combo ? what is it a year ? 2 ? 5 years before it works ?
what does game breaking mean to you ?
then we have to agree on what makes a TE good ?
Catching ? Blocking ? combination of the 2 ?
L.J. Smith TE for the Eagles , Seems to be doing somthing right .......
Now TO had a poor TE in ninerland , and well we all saw how well the niners did

LJ Smith, give me a break. Yeah he really controls the hashmarks.

Bottomline...TO would do just as well without him.

[Spider]

LJ Smith, give me a break. Yeah he really controls the hashmarks.

Bottomline...TO would do just as well without him.
I see , well maybe i dont know what I am talking about , could you explain what is meant by control the hashmarks please ?

[Spider]

Another quick qustion Bob , is the Hashmark on the LOS ?

[BroncoBuff]

These guys just hate you and aren't playing fair.

Fair enough, NapTown you can think the posts are just anger - but I stand by what I said:

The Droughs loss and Clarett addition are 100% IRRELEVANT to how this team will do (or not do!)

Angry - yeah! But correct, too! :strong:

[Bob's your Information Minister]

I see , well maybe i dont know what I am talking about , could you explain what is meant by control the hashmarks please ?

Stuff it.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Another quick qustion Bob , is the Hashmark on the LOS ?

Eat me.

Yes, a good tight end like TG or Gates can control the hashmarks. That is ABSOLUTELY not a necessary factor to have a big play wideout. There is mounds of evidence destroying your argument.

Certainly it HELPS, but it's not NECESSARY.

[Rock Chalk]

Im almost tempted to take B.O.B. off ignore.

Almost.

[Bronx33]

Im almost tempted to take B.O.B. off ignore.

Almost.

That's crazy talk alec! shouldn't you be working? it's saturday ya know!

[Spider]

Stuff it.
I see ........ so you realy dont know if LJ smith is good or not ..... so young ans so mean ...Damn that Rap music

[bloodsunday]

He makes some good points, but a lot of his conclusions seem like pre-conceived notions from his beliefs before he sat down and actually analyzed the team.

"Most" did not feel Denver had to go out and get a game-breaking WR. That's a nice straw man though. Maybe someone to become more of a 3rd WR threat (Rice, expected progression of Watts in his 2nd season), but no one thought a new starter was needed.

Anyone who thinks Denver's DL is a tad weaker, truly did not do their research to see who was on the line last year because that line was terrible.

Dayne became the NCAA's all-time leading rusher in a rushing system like Denver's. Little research there would allow the writer to realize why the Broncos went after him.

Vastly improved division across the board? Bolts made no moves and their "vast" improvement is supposed to come from 2 1st round picks. Raiders acquired Moss and Jordan, and let their defense slip even further. Hard to say that the Raiders vastly improved when they're probably going to be giving up around 30 points a game. Chiefs are about the only team that can be said definitely improved over last season, but it still remains to be seen whether the adjective "vast" can be used to describe it.
It's funny how the entire national media thinks with the same brain. Look, I've been a bit down on the team this preseason, but at least I have taken the time to watch the games and understand the moves. And, I am also smart enough to recognize that it isn't even week 1 and all this could be proven wrong.

[Spider]

Eat me.

Yes, a good tight end like TG or Gates can control the hashmarks. That is ABSOLUTELY not a necessary factor to have a big play wideout. There is mounds of evidence destroying your argument.

Certainly it HELPS, but it's not NECESSARY.
I dont know , I thought guys like Bob Bruner , Mark Chumera , Klinesaucer , have done a great Job of controling the Hashmarks ......

[orange 4 life]

In fact, the Broncos look a tad weaker......... on the defensive line

the whole analysis is OKAY and MOSTLY accurate, and then you get to this.

honestly, this is the single stupidest comment ANYONE has made about this team in.......i dont know. in a LONG LONG time.

how in the name of God are we WEAKER on the line?
its so COMPLETELY moronic there isnt even an ARGUMENT.
if i went back to high school debate days i could make an argument on most
anything, but even i wouldve laughed at this one. there IS no argument.
weaker?
huh?

everyone from last years squad is back sans an overhyped and overpaid hayward.
pryce and big luther (both former probowlers) come back healthy.
engelberger comes in from san fran.
palepoi, davis, fatafehi, etc. are ALL a year more experienced.
we have TOO MUCH talent at d-line, and a couple guys with talent are going to be cut (im not even speculating yet, but they cant all stay).

these friggin morons JUST see that we brought in 4 guys from a losing team and see NOTHING else.
its such stupidity i dont know whether to laugh or get angry.
this is the kind of horsesh!t i HOPE the team is reading.
let them see how the national media views them, and let them make them all look like the jackasses they are.
problem is, once we start winning, theyll all pretend they saw it all along.
what a bunch of fools.

jake

[Paladin]

Loss? WTF loss? RD was traded. Didn't "lose" the boy. He was traded. How is that a loss? How is it that RD didn't rEally run much at all until last year when the Broncos "discovered" him, and now he's lost. Yep. Real smart analysis there, Bozo. Two horn honks for you, by golly!

I do not believe that the Broncos' fortunes are tied to the "Browncos" as others believe. Even if they used the same group from last year and added Pryce, that alone was an improvement on the Dline. The addition of Engleberger is helpful. The FO was swinging for the fence on the trade with the Browns. Frankly, I think 'Neezer is an upgrade from last year, and Myers will be tough. If Warren pans out, then I'd say the pundits will need to eat a whole lot of crow. But. Know what? The "pundits" will not say anything at all. Instead, they will question what is wrong with *busted team du jour* and try to sell sensational articles. And the Squawmen will blame Gooonther for their losses.

All the trolls can carp all they want, but the season will start in three weeks. We'll count up the Ws and the Ls at the end and see where things are. In the meantime, I am going to just enjoy the fun, beers and food.

[Rock Chalk]

the whole analysis is OKAY and MOSTLY accurate, and then you get to this.

honestly, this is the single stupidest comment ANYONE has made about this team in.......i dont know. in a LONG LONG time.

Actually Jake, Hayward while overhyped and overpaid now, was the second best lineman we had last year. Him being gone and the replacements never having proved anything make the perception of the line being weaker a valid perception. Its not a stupid comment. It might or might not be true, but its not a stupid comment.

Remember, just because you disagree, doesnt make it stupid. If that were the case, everyone here is stupid because everyone here has disagreed with me at one point or another.

how in the name of God are we WEAKER on the line?
its so COMPLETELY moronic there isnt even an ARGUMENT.
if i went back to high school debate days i could make an argument on most
anything, but even i wouldve laughed at this one. there IS no argument.
weaker?
huh?

How? OK, if you really need it explained to you, perhaps my initial comments were a little hasty.

Pryce, while proven, is coming off a season ending back problem and really, no one knows what can happen with that or if that is going to affect performance in a 60 minute game that counts. Hayward, the only other proven pass rusher, is gone. The Brownco's, while having all the potential in the world, have never really proven anything to anyone. The line COULD be weaker this year. Thats something you will have to face. I dont think it will be, but that is a very real possibility.

everyone from last years squad is back sans an overhyped and overpaid hayward.
pryce and big luther (both former probowlers) come back healthy.
engelberger comes in from san fran.
palepoi, davis, fatafehi, etc. are ALL a year more experienced.
we have TOO MUCH talent at d-line, and a couple guys with talent are going to be cut (im not even speculating yet, but they cant all stay).

Big Luther didnt do much when he was on the field and lets be honest about Pryce. Back problems are a big deal for linemen and there is absolutely NO gaurantee he is going to remain healthy all year. Engleberger, while showing a great moter and lots of upside, still was let go from the worst team in football.

these friggin morons JUST see that we brought in 4 guys from a losing team and see NOTHING else.
its such stupidity i dont know whether to laugh or get angry.
this is the kind of horsesh!t i HOPE the team is reading.
let them see how the national media views them, and let them make them all look like the jackasses they are.
problem is, once we start winning, theyll all pretend they saw it all along.
what a bunch of fools.

I agree that most "analysts" just look at basic stuff. But in essence, they have valid points on their skepticism. Im skeptical of what the D-line is going to do, until they do it. Mostly Im skeptical of late season let downs because thats when this team blows it.

jake
Adam

[Spider]

My Problem was , the writter adressed the WR position , yet blew right over the TE. spot ..... Denver has alot of questions about TE right now , could be disasterous for us . if you are going to adress a teams weakness , you realy should start with the obvious , then move down ...... Right now the Browncos are a more sure thing then our TE position

[orange 4 life]

Actually Jake, Hayward while overhyped and overpaid now, was the second best lineman we had last year. Him being gone and the replacements never having proved anything make the perception of the line being weaker a valid perception. Its not a stupid comment. It might or might not be true, but its not a stupid comment.
Adam

wow.

agree to disagree i guess.
there's alot of things ill disagree with people about and not think for a second that their argument is "stupid".
i just simply dont agree, but i can see the other sides point.

in this case, its far beyond that.
when starters from last year are THIRD on the depth chart its in no way "likely" and hardly even POSSIBLE that the line will be worse.
"not dramatically improved"?
okay, ill listen to that argument. ill disagree, but ill listen.
worse?
sorry adam, but i think thats just plain dumb (and im not talking about you, but the writer)
the ONLY way we're worse is if this chain of events happens:

-pryce cant recover from the back problems (Lord knows i know how serious those are!!) and has to retire or sit out most of the season (because pryce at 70% of his old self is an imrovement)
- luther gets cut, or just cant get it done like he could in his younger years (the most likely scenario since pryce by all accounts looks very good)
- palepoi, davis, fatafehi, johnson (whomever makes the squad from last years unit) are WORSE than they were last year (not likely since other than raylee theyre all youngsters that should be improving)
- NONE of the brownies make an impact (since three are possible starters i'd say this is the most unlikely scenario)
- engelburger doesnt pan out (again, no reason to think this will happen)

if ALL of these things happen, we would be worse.
now, can you POSSIBLY see this happening?
basically that NO ONE will step up AND that the guys from a year ago stay the same or get worse?
if ALL those scenarios played out and our line is worse than a year ago, it would be the single biggest unlucky and unLIKELY chain of events ive ever seen happen to this team, or maybe any team.
again, you want to make an argument that they wont be DRAMATICALLY improved, and im all ears.
i dont see it, but it can be argued.
worse though?
its not a "valid perception", its completely defying all logic.

jake

[crazyhorse]

what you left off was the 13-3 Under grob to 7-9 under Goonther .....
But interesting question , . it will be one of those wait and see things ......

So you are saying that Grob was the reason for our 13 and 3 record?

Yeah :giggle: ....you know football.

[Rock Chalk]

wow.

agree to disagree i guess.
there's alot of things ill disagree with people about and not think for a second that their argument is "stupid".
i just simply dont agree, but i can see the other sides point.

in this case, its far beyond that.
when starters from last year are THIRD on the depth chart its in no way "likely" and hardly even POSSIBLE that the line will be worse.
"not dramatically improved"?
okay, ill listen to that argument. ill disagree, but ill listen.
worse?
sorry adam, but i think thats just plain dumb (and im not talking about you, but the writer)
the ONLY way we're worse is if this chain of events happens:

-pryce cant recover from the back problems (Lord knows i know how serious those are!!) and has to retire or sit out most of the season (because pryce at 70% of his old self is an imrovement)
- luther gets cut, or just cant get it done like he could in his younger years (the most likely scenario since pryce by all accounts looks very good)
- palepoi, davis, fatafehi, johnson (whomever makes the squad from last years unit) are WORSE than they were last year (not likely since other than raylee theyre all youngsters that should be improving)
- NONE of the brownies make an impact (since three are possible starters i'd say this is the most unlikely scenario)
- engelburger doesnt pan out (again, no reason to think this will happen)

if ALL of these things happen, we would be worse.
now, can you POSSIBLY see this happening?
basically that NO ONE will step up AND that the guys from a year ago stay the same or get worse?
if ALL those scenarios played out and our line is worse than a year ago, it would be the single biggest unlucky and unLIKELY chain of events ive ever seen happen to this team, or maybe any team.
again, you want to make an argument that they wont be DRAMATICALLY improved, and im all ears.
i dont see it, but it can be argued.
worse though?
its not a "valid perception", its completely defying all logic.

jake

You are basing your assumption that the line has improved on just as much "IF" as the writers are basing their assumption though Jake. Those scenario's you mentioned, are all very real scenario's that can possibly happen and even if just one or two of them happen, our line could end up looking pretty damn pathetic, especially late in the year.

You yourself have stated the seriousness of back problems lingering with their effects for years. That puts a big question mark on Pryce.

Everyone, EVERYONE else is a big question mark on the D-line.

Now I dont disagree with you on the fact that our D-line is going to be improved. All I am getting at is that, while me and you and some other Bronco nation faithful believe that the D-line is going to be improved, that is based solely...SOLELY on the opposite assumptions that the national media is taking.

As my baby Tredici likes to say "Perceptions are everything". Just a matter of how you look at it.

[TheChamp247]

yea our running game will be AMAZING this year! we have our star center TIM Nalen! whoohoo!








idiots!

[crazyhorse]

the whole analysis is OKAY and MOSTLY accurate, and then you get to this.

honestly, this is the single stupidest comment ANYONE has made about this team in.......i dont know. in a LONG LONG time.

how in the name of God are we WEAKER on the line?
its so COMPLETELY moronic there isnt even an ARGUMENT.
if i went back to high school debate days i could make an argument on most
anything, but even i wouldve laughed at this one. there IS no argument.
weaker?
huh?

everyone from last years squad is back sans an overhyped and overpaid hayward.
pryce and big luther (both former probowlers) come back healthy.
engelberger comes in from san fran.
palepoi, davis, fatafehi, etc. are ALL a year more experienced.
we have TOO MUCH talent at d-line, and a couple guys with talent are going to be cut (im not even speculating yet, but they cant all stay).

these friggin morons JUST see that we brought in 4 guys from a losing team and see NOTHING else.
its such stupidity i dont know whether to laugh or get angry.
this is the kind of horsesh!t i HOPE the team is reading.
let them see how the national media views them, and let them make them all look like the jackasses they are.
problem is, once we start winning, theyll all pretend they saw it all along.
what a bunch of fools.

jake

I think the arguement could be based on the "previous track record" of how the D linemen have performed. You act as though sheer numbers equate to a better line. While for the second year in a row, you have let your best D linemen walk. Then you guys pick up d linemen that have a history of not performing up to the lineman you let walk.

That could be at least part of the arguement, dont you think?

[Spider]

So you are saying that Grob was the reason for our 13 and 3 record?

Yeah :giggle: ....you know football.
didnt the chiefs attain a 13-3 Record with GRob as the Dcord ?
and didnt the Chiefs go 7-9 with the same D players under Goonther ?
Ok so what was different in the offense in those 2 years ?

[Rock Chalk]

I think the arguement could be based on the "previous track record" of how the D linemen have performed. You act as though sheer numbers equate to a better line. While for the second year in a row, you have let your best D linemen walk. Then you guys pick up d linemen that have a history of not performing up to the lineman you let walk.

That could be at least part of the arguement, dont you think?
No, our best Lineman is Trevor Pryce and has been since he has been a starter. We have let for two years in a row, our second best lineman go.

That bolded sentence, thats the same problem I keep encountering. I keep rememebering IHOP. And while I hope to God this pans out, Im expecting another IHOP fiasco for at least one of Brown or Warren.

[crazyhorse]

didnt the chiefs attain a 13-3 Record with GRob as the Dcord ?
and didnt the Chiefs go 7-9 with the same D players under Goonther ?
Ok so what was different in the offense in those 2 years ?

Grob joined the team. Every year after the defense became worse. He took a middle of the road dfense and turned them into the laughing stock of the league. Gunther has inherited the same laughing stock and tried to improve them. I am just giving Gunther the same chance I gave Grob.

I bet he does better after 3 years. How 'bout you? :poke:

[Bob's your Information Minister]

-pryce cant recover from the back problems (Lord knows i know how serious those are!!) a

Back injuries destroyed Charles Haley's career.

[Atlas]

It;s just the same 'ole same 'ole. How is the D line weaker than last year. Last year it Was Marco Coleman, Reggie Hayward, Fatefehi and Monsanto Pope. All those players are stilll on the roster except for Hayward. So even if Denver started those same four guys and Pryce that would be an upgrade.
I just don't understand these writers. Denver's defense is going to kick ass.

[crazyhorse]

No, our best Lineman is Trevor Pryce and has been since he has been a starter. We have let for two years in a row, our second best lineman go.

That bolded sentence, thats the same problem I keep encountering. I keep rememebering IHOP. And while I hope to God this pans out, Im expecting another IHOP fiasco for at least one of Brown or Warren.

When I said best lineman, I meant the one actually playing. Not benched linemen. Speaking of whick Planny tried like hell to dump him this off season, to no avail.

[Rock Chalk]

When I said best lineman, I meant the one actually playing. Not benched linemen. Speaking of whick Planny tried like hell to dump him this off season, to no avail.
Say crazyhorse. If you stop taking the drugs now, you might be able to save the few brain cells you have left.

[Spider]

Grob joined the team. Every year after the defense became worse. He took a middle of the road dfense and turned them into the laughing stock of the league. Gunther has inherited the same laughing stock and tried to improve them. I am just giving Gunther the same chance I gave Grob.

I bet he does better after 3 years. How 'bout you? :poke:
G Rob had a high risk High reward Defense , but he wasnt the sole blame , Goonther is proof of that ........ '
as for Goonther getting better ? I dont see how , he has different players at some positions now doesnt he ?

[orange 4 life]

I think the arguement could be based on the "previous track record" of how the D linemen have performed. You act as though sheer numbers equate to a better line. While for the second year in a row, you have let your best D linemen walk. Then you guys pick up d linemen that have a history of not performing up to the lineman you let walk.

That could be at least part of the arguement, dont you think?

i think that would be valid EXCEPT for the fact that the ONLY lineman we let walk was hayward.
EVERYONE else from last years team is back.
so here's what we have.

hayward gone.

pryce, ellis, engelberger, myers, ekuban, warren, and brown added.

thats ONE gone and SEVEN added.
is it not reasonable to assume of those SEVEN that at least 3 will make an impact?
and if they do, thats ALOT of improvement....and thats only asking 3 of 7.
heck, if only TWO of those guys are big impact players, thats still one more than we lost in hayward (who had inflated stats anyway and disappeared at crucial times).
make sense?

[Bronco LB 59]

While for the second year in a row, you have let your best D linemen walk. Then you guys pick up d linemen that have a history of not performing up to the lineman you let walk.

In a perfect world, the Broncos would keep Reggie Hayward.

Unfortunately, there's a salary cap in football. When your entire defensive line unit stinks, you can't afford to put all your eggs into a solid defensive end who will never be a worldbeater.

[Rohirrim]

I think the national media response to the Broncos is based on the idea of what I wrote in another thread: This team is not sexy.

They don't have a TO, or a Moss, or a Manning. If you're doing entertainment schlock, which is what the media rolls in, you don't have much to write.

If all you care about is winning football games, this team is built to do it, the old fashioned way, on the ground. Strong D, a better pass rush (which ain't saying much), strong running attack, solid 2 TE sets, much improved STs, and IMO a better secondary (because it's much faster). All in all, this team will move the chains and stop the opponent from scoring. It ain't built to be sexy. It's built to win games.

And the reason it's not built to be sexy is because the Broncos don't have to bring in a Randy Moss to put butts in the seats. The seats are filled, regardless. All they have to do is win games.

[Bronco LB 59]

I think the arguement could be based on the "previous track record" of how the D linemen have performed. You act as though sheer numbers equate to a better line.

Part of the problem with the media, they have lumped the "Browncos" together as one bunch and not evaluated each move on an individual basis.

Courtney Brown: Look at his track record, he's produced, he just can't stay healthy.

Gerard Warren: He's been an underachiever, but PFW listed "Big Money" among their top 20 DTs in the NFL in their 2003 preview. He's listed ahead of DTs such as Kris Jenkins and Shaun Rogers. This is when the highly reputable Joel Bausbaum was running the show. Yes, the performance has been there, Warren just hasn't done it consistently. However, the Browns paid him a handsome signing bonus, the Broncos are paying him peanuts.

Ebenezer Ekuban: He's a swingman off the bench and he tallied 8 sacks last season. What's wrong with bringing in a guy like that? The Chiefs' new DE acquisition Carlos Hall has 12 sacks in 3 seasons.

Michael Myers: Same thing with Ekuban. He's merely a rotation guy that can play inside or outside. Every team has a D-lineman like this.

John Engelberger: The high motored, hard hat DE led the 49ers in sacks last season. Another rotation guy who will not start. How can anybody criticize a move for depth on an unit that takes their share of attrition?

[Atlas]

In a perfect world, the Broncos would keep Reggie Hayward.

Unfortunately, there's a salary cap in football. When your entire defensive line unit stinks, you can't afford to put all your eggs into a solid defensive end who will never be a worldbeater.

The funny thing is that Denver's Dline last year didn't stink. Denver had the #4 defense in the league. That D line played very hard and made some plays. This year hopefully they can get to the QB and dominate.

[Bronco LB 59]

The funny thing is that Denver's Dline last year didn't stink. Denver had the #4 defense in the league. That D line played very hard and made some plays. This year hopefully they can get to the QB and dominate.

It was the weakest unit of the defense. When you are trying to upgrade the entire unit, you can either :

A. Break the bank on one good DE who will never develop into an All-Pro caliber player and be in the same spot you were last season.

B. Go bargain shopping, bring in a group of 5 talented linemen at a cheap price. Low risk, high reward moves.

Denver could have thrown money at Bryce Fisher and Chike Okeafor as well, but spending it on the Browncos and Engelberger was much more efficient use of cap room with a bigger upside.

[-Slap-]

Part of the problem with the media, they have lumped the "Browncos" together as one bunch and not evaluated each move on an individual basis.

Courtney Brown: Look at his track record, he's produced, he just can't stay healthy.

Gerard Warren: He's been an underachiever, but PFW listed "Big Money" among their top 20 DTs in the NFL in their 2003 preview. He's listed ahead of DTs such as Kris Jenkins and Shaun Rogers. This is when the highly reputable Joel Bausbaum was running the show. Yes, the performance has been there, Warren just hasn't done it consistently. However, the Browns paid him a handsome signing bonus, the Broncos are paying him peanuts.

Ebenezer Ekuban: He's a swingman off the bench and he tallied 8 sacks last season. What's wrong with bringing in a guy like that? The Chiefs' new DE acquisition Carlos Hall has 12 sacks in 3 seasons.

Michael Myers: Same thing with Ekuban. He's merely a rotation guy that can play inside or outside. Every team has a D-lineman like this.

John Engelberger: The high motored, hard hat DE led the 49ers in sacks last season. Another rotation guy who will not start. How can anybody criticize a move for depth on an unit that takes their share of attrition?
Then add in the return of Trevor Pryce from injury. Dorsett Davis, too, for whatever that's worth.

[Jetmeck]

Yeah, I guess no one has the right to question Maurice Clarrett over Droughns.

Unless Clarrett get's cut, of course.

To answer your question, Portis. What's your point?
Here is the point you should feel. K.Belle is hurt more often than not and the rook LB will have growing pains as they all do. Just how far from dead last in defense do you think Surtain and Knight will bring you on their own ?

The Broncos on the other hand were in the top 5 defensive categories which means a little tweaking here and there should do the trick.

Let me put it this way,

Broncos defense needed a tune up on the "FERRARI",

Chiefs defense needs a freakin overhaul on the YUGO.

[Atlas]

It was the weakest unit of the defense.

And now it's the second strongest after the Linebackers with the secondary being the weakest. I don't what the big deal is in getting a dominate defense. On Xbox I pretty mmuch traded and drafted some real studs. Why casn't the Broncos do the same?? I guess I just know how to mage the cap better... lol

[Bronco LB 59]

Then add in the return of Trevor Pryce from injury. Dorsett Davis, too, for whatever that's worth.

In 2003, Trevor Pryce played at such a high level, one sports writer voted for him in the NFL Defensive Player of the Year voting. You know the sports writer was watching game film because Pryce lacked the sexy numbers and Bertrand Berry/Reggie Hayward were enjoying the single teams due to 93's presence. Our new acquisitions are going to enjoy the single teams as well.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2004/01/01/sports0311EST0145.DTL&type=printable

[Hercules Rockefeller]

While for the second year in a row, you have let your best D linemen walk. Then you guys pick up d linemen that have a history of not performing up to the lineman you let walk.


Sack leader and best DL are not one and the same. Denver's best DL for the last 6 seasons or so has been Pryce. Berry and Heyward were never the best DL on the team.

BTW, where was Berry the season before he joined the Broncos? He was out of football all-together. So it looks like Denver picked up a DL who had a history of not performing and kind of helped develop him into what he's become today. Heyward kind of developed too in his time here, even though his sack numbers greatly exaggerate how good he is.

[crazyhorse]

Here is the point you should feel. K.Belle is hurt more often than not and the rook LB will have growing pains as they all do. Just how far from dead last in defense do you think Surtain and Knight will bring you on their own ?

The Broncos on the other hand were in the top 5 defensive categories which means a little tweaking here and there should do the trick.

Let me put it this way,

Broncos defense needed a tune up on the "FERRARI",

Chiefs defense needs a freakin overhaul on the YUGO.

Funny. That Yugo smoked that Ferrari last december.

What does that have to do with the Broncos lousy off season though?

Just curious.

[Mediator12]

When I said best lineman, I meant the one actually playing. Not benched linemen. Speaking of whick Planny tried like hell to dump him this off season, to no avail.

So that means we should take the absence of Bell and Carlos as not being FA acquisitions since they are Benched Currently correct. That Leaves Surtain and Knight. Whoo great offseason defensively Chiefs. :hitself:

[Mediator12]

Funny. That Yugo smoked that Ferrari last december.

What does that have to do with the Broncos lousy off season though?

Just curious.

There is a reason these guys write columns and do not coach crazyhorse. Those that can not do, Teach. Those that can not Teach, write about it.

[-Slap-]

Sack leader and best DL are not one and the same. Denver's best DL for the last 6 seasons or so has been Pryce. Berry and Heyward were never the best DL on the team.

BTW, where was Berry the season before he joined the Broncos? He was out of football all-together. So it looks like Denver picked up a DL who had a history of not performing and kind of helped develop him into what he's become today. Heyward kind of developed too in his time here, even though his sack numbers greatly exaggerate how good he is.
Shanahan gave Bertrand a chance to play and our coaching staff brought the best out of his game. As I recall, Berry repaid us by talking a gang of **** walking out the door. At least Heyward departed with class.

[crazyhorse]

There is a reason these guys write columns and do not coach crazyhorse. Those that can not do, Teach. Those that can not Teach, write about it.

I will agree here, to an extent. I will go as far as to say, in many cases, NFL analysts dont know as much as the fans. An analyst has to cover several teams. So they dont spend the time we likely do following our 1 team.

However, you are in the minority when thinking Denver has improved. Not to say it's impossible, but improbable. I can appreciate the feeling. But the arguements here make no more sense than Gunther fixing our defense all by himself. Though many Chiefs fans felt it could work, it was improbable. Chiefs fans were the only ones who could really see Gun making that big a difference. The majority saw it differently. For Gunther to fix the D by himself wasn't impossible, but improbable. Just like your offseason moves improving the team.

It could happen.

But the odds are against ya.

[Mediator12]

Sack leader and best DL are not one and the same. Denver's best DL for the last 6 seasons or so has been Pryce. Berry and Heyward were never the best DL on the team.

BTW, where was Berry the season before he joined the Broncos? He was out of football all-together. So it looks like Denver picked up a DL who had a history of not performing and kind of helped develop him into what he's become today. Heyward kind of developed too in his time here, even though his sack numbers greatly exaggerate how good he is.

How about Fatefehi, Holland, Palepoi, and Now it looks like Dorsett Davis is becoming a factor. The reason, as you stated earlier crazyhorse, that this team is better on the DL is they DEVELOP underachievers the last two years and maximize guys like Pryce. Coyer has taken trash and made them respectable at every level of defense. The Broncos have had Probowlers at every position but DT the last two years on Defense.

For all of the negative press on the CLE guys, their Talent level is NEVER QUESTIONED. Its either underachiever, injured, or Journeyman. Engelberger is a great acquisition as he is a better Overall DE than anyone in the rest of the AFCW. BTW, rival fans he is a backup.

Furthermore, Horrible teams have Good players. Most rival fans and the media fail to recognize that. CLE switched from a 4-3 Front to a 3-4. So did San Francisco, making those players somewhat expendable with the system changes. That is why two of the DL were let go. The other two were not released willingly. Romeo Crennel tried to get Brown back and Phil savage was not going to give a Draft pick away so they included Myers. The front four of CLE was FOURTH in pass defense last year and they blitzed in the lower 10% of the league. That was with only Anthony Henry in the secondary. That means they were able to apply pressure to the QB. That is why Denver wanted them. They fit their style of play better than they did in CLE. Den wants DT that penetrate the LOS and they got them.

As for the Bogus running stats name any of the starting LB's for CLE besides Andra Davis. Name either safety. That's right look it up, because their back seven was one of the worst in Football. They may have missed more tackles than even the Chiefs and Raiders combined. There offense was also pathetic and the "D" spent more time on the field than anyone but the Raiders. KC's defense spent five less minutes on the field than CLE and still gave up 50 more yards, 1.2 per play more, and three more points a game. Denver was sixth in rushing yards a game and tied for fourth in rushing average. In fact they have not been lower than sixth in rushing defense in the 5 years that Coyer has been here. But somehow, those facts fail to find their way into the press.

These acquisitions just do not make sense to those who fail to look below the surface. That is why no one pays them to do it. They pay them to produce an opinion every day that has zero accountability and even less credibility. Great job if you can get it.

[Rohirrim]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Mediator12 again.

I'm glad you're on this board. Damn fine post. :thumbsup:

[orange 4 life]

In 2003, Trevor Pryce played at such a high level, one sports writer voted for him in the NFL Defensive Player of the Year voting. You know the sports writer was watching game film because Pryce lacked the sexy numbers and Bertrand Berry/Reggie Hayward were enjoying the single teams due to 93's presence. Our new acquisitions are going to enjoy the single teams as well.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2004/01/01/sports0311EST0145.DTL&type=printable

thats an ENORMOUS issue that NO ONE is talkjing about.
kudo's to you.

even in PREseason, trevor is getting the double's, and come regular season (assuming he can stay healthy (knock knock) which is looking good) you know EVERYONE will double, and at times TRIPLE him.
it will leave alot of room for the other guys to wreak havoc.
pryce's healthy return should not be underestimated.

[orange 4 life]

let me second ro's praise of mediators post.

VERY well done my friend. VERY well done.

how refreshing to see someone actually digging BEYOND the surface to try and uncover the whole story. excellent job.

jake

[ScottXray]

Fair criticisms of our team I say.

I dont agree with some of the things in that article, but the question marks around the D-line, no matter what my brethren try to spin, are there. Pryce is the only proven commodity on the line...again. The other guys have all the potential in the world to be all-stars, but have not yet proven anything to anyone and thus, are question marks. We may well have a worse D-line than last year, however, we may have one of the most dominant D-line's in Denver's history this year. Time will tell. Needless to say, the criticisms garnered by various media outlets is not unjustified.

Lets focus on Brown and Warren. Now, I know there is tons of potential there, I know there is a possibility of them just needing a change of scenery (and with Warren my hopes are high, Brown not so high). However, you can also look at this and say "Well, this really looks like another Daryl Gardner move". Think about it, a guy with a ton of potential but "issues".

As for the Clarett pick. I just wish the Chef fans knew what the hell they were talking about. Look, when your RB coach, who just churned out five different 1000 yard backs, wants to take on a project in MoC, you tend to let the guy get what he wants. Afterall, he has done his job effectively. So what that the media thinks it was a bad move. It might have been. But the fact is, Bobby Turner wanted MoC, for whatever reason and, IMO, I will trust in Bobby more than I will any media outlet or stupid mullet having Chef fan.

Denver did not regress this offseason. Worst case scenario (assuming no injuries to key players), we finish 9-7 or 10-6 and make no progress forward, but do not regress back.

Id like to say KC and Jokeland are going to regress but when you are already at the bottom of the cesspool, its hard to get any lower.

Good points. While I wish being in homer mode made everything come true, it really doesn't make anything happen on the field. It looks like we have improved our D-line, but it's worrisome that there haven't been any picks yet.
I think Shanahan knows more about football than any of these hacks, but assuming they are right and we tank this year, the criticism would be warranted. The division, as a whole, did make substantial moves this year, and we have to keep up.
Right now the MOC pick is a questionable one, especially if he gets cut (unlikely but possible). Still, it was only a third round pick, not a 1st or 2nd.
Other than that and the investment in Gold, our cap room pretty much limited what could be done. The "plan" was blown up early, but I think we did the best we could. If the moves pay off and we get consistent pressure on the opposing QBs then it should. Only two weeks until its for real, and we start to find out what works and what doesn't.
I'm ready for some FOOTBALL! :wiggle:

[-Slap-]

How about Fatefehi, Holland, Palepoi, and Now it looks like Dorsett Davis is becoming a factor. The reason, as you stated earlier crazyhorse, that this team is better on the DL is they DEVELOP underachievers the last two years and maximize guys like Pryce.

Coyer has taken trash and made them respectable at every level of defense. The Broncos have had Probowlers at every position but DT the last two years on Defense.

For all of the negative press on the CLE guys, their Talent level is NEVER QUESTIONED. Its either underachiever, injured, or Journeyman. Engelberger is a great acquisition as he is a better Overall DE than anyone in the rest of the AFCW. BTW, rival fans he is a backup.

Furthermore, Horrible teams have Good players. Most rival fans and the media fail to recognize that. CLE switched from a 4-3 Front to a 3-4. So did San Francisco, making those players somewhat expendable with the system changes. That is why two of the DL were let go. The other two were not released willingly. Romeo Crennel tried to get Brown back and Phil savage was not going to give a Draft pick away so they included Myers. The front four of CLE was FOURTH in pass defense last year and they blitzed in the lower 10% of the league. That was with only Anthony Henry in the secondary. That means they were able to apply pressure to the QB. That is why Denver wanted them. They fit their style of play better than they did in CLE. Den wants DT that penetrate the LOS and they got them.

As for the Bogus running stats name any of the starting LB's for CLE besides Andra Davis. Name either safety. That's right look it up, because their back seven was one of the worst in Football. They may have missed more tackles than even the Chiefs and Raiders combined. There offense was also pathetic and the "D" spent more time on the field than anyone but the Raiders. KC's defense spent five less minutes on the field than CLE and still gave up 50 more yards, 1.2 per play more, and three more points a game. Denver was sixth in rushing yards a game and tied for fourth in rushing average. In fact they have not been lower than sixth in rushing defense in the 5 years that Coyer has been here. But somehow, those facts fail to find their way into the press.

These acquisitions just do not make sense to those who fail to look below the surface. That is why no one pays them to do it. They pay them to produce an opinion every day that has zero accountability and even less credibility. Great job if you can get it.

Larry Coyer doesn't get nearly enough recognition nationally for the job he's done in Denver.

[Mediator12]

Larry Coyer doesn't get nearly enough recognition nationally for the job he's done in Denver.

One more year of a top 5 defense and he may look for another Job unless he gets a sweeter contract. I know Shanahan denied KC the opportunity to speak with him when Greg Robinson left DEN AND when Greg Left KC.

[BroncoBuff]

Denver has alot of questions about TE right now , could be disasterous for us ...... Right now the Browncos are a more sure thing then our TE position
What "disaster," §pideR? It's just Stephen Alexander (whom the coaches appear to love) replacing Carswell . . . that's it! The only change. If that's a disaster - I don't see it! I read where Alexander is an excellent blocker, too.

I think the WR criticism is more pertinent - Rod and Rice are not young - and, btw, Shanny's had nuthin but trouble with that 3rd WR position for years now. Remember "Steady Eddie" Kennison?
WR - THAT is our #1 concern, imo.

MY PROBLEM, yet AGAIN, is that these guys write about the Droughns trade as if we are "Crippled by the loss," or "The Droughns swap is is a gamble - Shanahan has traded away two 1000 yard backs in as many years."

WHAT?! HELLO? Rueben lost the starting job to Tatum around Week 12!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (Although Tatum was dinged up later, so Rueben played). But of course - Rueben is no Tatum, anyway!!!!!

AND - They write about the Clarett pick like it was "gambling" on "a crucial move to address a pressing need"! WHAT? Unlike what you may read on certain "Sites", Mo is the POSTER-CHILD for the practice squad! Outta football for 2 years, but maybe an upside.

LISTEN UP! Clarett was never going to play this year! No way! He was taken as a FLYER with a surprise compensatory pick Shanny didn't think he'd get! (The Clarett and I think Paymah(?) picks were comps for Bertrand Berry (sob), and Ian Gold! . . .tee hee . . . )

Maybe the problem is just LAZY sportswriters.

----

Here is my "OrangeMane.com" exhaustive comparison of '04 personnel to '05 personnel:

OUT - - - - - - - IN - - - - - - - - PLUS/MINUS
- - P L U S E S - -
Carswell/Jeb - - - -S. Alexander - - - - If you believe the coaches, Alexander is NAILS!
Droughns - - - - - Anderson/Bell - - - - Remember - Droughns was just an injury fill-in for Mike, and he lost the job to Tatum anyway
Dan Neil - - - - - - C. Carlisle - - - - - This change was made in '04 anyway
J. Baker - - - - - - Todd Sauerbrun - - Hmmmmmm... gosh, I wonder?
K. Herndon - - - - L. Walls - - - - - - - Walls was the starter anyway, just hurt
Palepoi/Coleman - -T. Pryce - - - - - - Duhhhhh....
Monsanto Pope - - M.Myers - - - - - - They're both in camp now - just take one look at the depth chart
D. Spragan - - - - - Ian Gold - - - - - I read where Spragan's coverage skills were the Bronco D "weak link"
- - M I N U S E S - -
Kenoy - - - - - - - Hit-Man - - - - - - probably a drop-off, Kenoy was supposedly borderline Pro-Bowl
- - U N C E R T A I N - -
R. Hayward - - - - Courtney Brown - - If Courtney is HEALTHY... NO comparison
Mario Fatafehi - - - G.Warren - - - - - If Warren CARES ... No comparison

---
Okay . . . there you have it!

Boy, I gotta try some decaf on weekends!

[TotallyScrewed]

I think given enough time and given the power to select draft choices Gunther will improve the KC defense. I think DJ is a hellofa pick-up. His style is completely different from Robinson's in a good way.

I can see SOME of the questioning about the Denver D-line. They look great so far but it's not real yet. We are hoping that Trev's back is 100%. At DE he shouldn't have to take doubles on consistently. We're hoping that C. Brown can be healthy and that a change up helps G. Warren. We're hoping that Luther is finally healthy again. We want more of the same from Engleberger, Fatafehi, Meyers, Ekuban, Palopoi, etc...not some great improvement. We'd like D. Davis to be consistent. If any two or three do pan out, Denver is way ahead of last year. Hayward is getting chastised of late isn't he?? Because he's not all that and they paid for "all that".

The D-line sucked last year. The won't this year, I've zero doubt.

Teams that confront Denver should worry about the Denver running game. It's what kills you year in and year out. If you can't consistently stop Denvers' rush, you usually lose.

[Mediator12]

Here's the deal CrazyHorse. MIAMI had the second worst Defense against the run in the NFL last year. The ONLY two FA's KC has seen see the field came from that team. Using the same stupid Logic the sportswriters have used with CLE DL, the KC run Defense should end up being the worst in NFL history since Knight and Surtain come from the 31st ranked defense against the run.

Do you see any Lazy ass Sports writers commenting on KC's Sorry ass DL that Added ZERO run stuffers! NO.

Do you see them writing articles about the fact that Kendrell Bell or Derrick Burgess have seen less action in the last three years than Courtney Brown??? NO. They say Brown is injury prone but not those two KEY FA pickups.

The Bible says in Matthew 7:3 "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brothers eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own Eye." You should heed that more often.

[Ballhawk]

I can't argue against this tripe anymore. Denver has the best team it has had in the last 5 years, now lets see what they do with that talent.

[Atlas]

Larry Coyer doesn't get nearly enough recognition nationally for the job he's done in Denver.

I think that comes from the national perception that Shanny does everything and is everything. No one has ever heard of Sundquist and the people that have heard of him think he is a fugure head. Turner doesn't get any respect, coyer doesn't and Hell, Pat Bowlen doesn't either. He is one of the best owners in the league but he gets over shadowed by the headcoach's reputation.

[watermock]

I don't know if Hayward is injured or what. He's been invisible so far.

[-Slap-]

One more year of a top 5 defense and he may look for another Job unless he gets a sweeter contract. I know Shanahan denied KC the opportunity to speak with him when Greg Robinson left DEN AND when Greg Left KC.
Bowlen needs to tighten him up. Pronto.

Pisses me off that we have Peter Principle poster boy Bob Slowik hovering around.

[Rock Chalk]

What "disaster," §pideR? It's just Stephen Alexander (whom the coaches appear to love) replacing Carswell . . . that's it! The only change. If that's a disaster - I don't see it! I read where Alexander is an excellent blocker, too.

I think the WR criticism is more pertinent - Rod and Rice are not young - and, btw, Shanny's had nuthin but trouble with that 3rd WR position for years now. Remember "Steady Eddie" Kennison?
WR - THAT is our #1 concern, imo.

MY PROBLEM, yet AGAIN, is that these guys write about the Droughns trade as if we are "Crippled by the loss," or "The Droughns swap is is a gamble - Shanahan has traded away two 1000 yard backs in as many years."

WHAT?! HELLO? Rueben lost the starting job to Tatum around Week 12!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (Although Tatum was dinged up later, so Rueben played). But of course - Rueben is no Tatum, anyway!!!!!

AND - They write about the Clarett pick like it was "gambling" on "a crucial move to address a pressing need"! WHAT? Unlike what you may read on certain "Sites", Mo is the POSTER-CHILD for the practice squad! Outta football for 2 years, but maybe an upside.

LISTEN UP! Clarett was never going to play this year! No way! He was taken as a FLYER with a surprise compensatory pick Shanny didn't think he'd get! (The Clarett and I think Paymah(?) picks were comps for Bertrand Berry (sob), and Ian Gold! . . .tee hee . . . )

Maybe the problem is just LAZY sportswriters.

----

Here is my "OrangeMane.com" exhaustive comparison of '04 personnel to '05 personnel:

OUT - - - - - - - IN - - - - - - - - PLUS/MINUS
- - P L U S E S - -
Carswell/Jeb - - - -S. Alexander - - - - If you believe the coaches, Alexander is NAILS!
Droughns - - - - - Anderson/Bell - - - - Remember - Droughns was just an injury fill-in for Mike, and he lost the job to Tatum anyway
Dan Neil - - - - - - C. Carlisle - - - - - This change was made in '04 anyway
J. Baker - - - - - - Todd Sauerbrun - - Hmmmmmm... gosh, I wonder?
K. Herndon - - - - L. Walls - - - - - - - Walls was the starter anyway, just hurt
Palepoi/Coleman - -T. Pryce - - - - - - Duhhhhh....
Monsanto Pope - - M.Myers - - - - - - They're both in camp now - just take one look at the depth chart
D. Spragan - - - - - Ian Gold - - - - - I read where Spragan's coverage skills were the Bronco D "weak link"
- - M I N U S E S - -
Kenoy - - - - - - - Hit-Man - - - - - - probably a drop-off, Kenoy was supposedly borderline Pro-Bowl
- - U N C E R T A I N - -
R. Hayward - - - - Courtney Brown - - If Courtney is HEALTHY... NO comparison
Mario Fatafehi - - - G.Warren - - - - - If Warren CARES ... No comparison

---
Okay . . . there you have it!

Boy, I gotta try some decaf on weekends!


You have too much time on your hands.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Miami's run D was better than ours, even though ours was ranked 12th.

I'll see if you can tell me why.

By the way, Miami had the 2nd ranked secondary, and we added two of their defensive backs. I notice you didn't care to add that.

Wouldn't you agree that defensive backs are more responsible for PASS DEFENSE than RUN DEFENSE?

[Taco John]

With the recent situation with Maurice, it would seem that he is probably right. I mean, which one would you rather have right now? Clarrett, or Droughns?



Droughns only wanted to stay if he was going to be the starter. That's what we have coaches for, to decide that. Your question has no true relevance, because that wasn't the proposition at all.

[Tredici]

Droughns was a fullback converted to tailback. Later in the season his legs showed it. Maybe if he starts out as a feature back he will gain the stamina to play a full season.

I love what Rueben did for the Broncos last season. I wish him well in Cincy.

With Anderson, Bell, Dayne and Griffith we'll muddle through somehow. Kyle Johnson is looking like the real deal at fullback and if he gets dinged Cecil Sapp is waiting for his opportunity.

The only problem will be the same one as previous seasons - injury. But right now any of these guys can go. Let's just stop any phony worry over Denver's running game. Or the absence of Droughns or Clarett.

[BroncoFanDoug]

With the recent situation with Maurice, it would seem that he is probably right. I mean, which one would you rather have right now? Clarrett, or Droughns?

I would rather have our 4 running backs without the salary cap hit Droughns wanted, and no Clarrett. Which is where we are.

[Raider Bill]

Do you see them writing articles about the fact that Kendrell Bell or Derrick Burgess have seen less action in the last three years than Courtney Brown NO

Derrick Burgess only plays situationaly as the nickel and dime LDE. It's not like he's the cornerstone of our line.

[wabbit]

Miami's run D was better than ours, even though ours was ranked 12th.

I'll see if you can tell me why.

...



You know what...you've peddled this crap for about as long as I'm gonna read it.

Yes, your sorry-assed _efense ranked 12th against the rush in total yards...BUT where did it rank in Average Yards PER rush...TWENTY-NINTH

THAT'S 29th if you can only read numbers.

...and 32nd...LAST IN THE NFL in giving up Passing Yards Per Game

32nd...last in the NFL for AVE yards per pass play

28th in giving up 1st downs

32nd...LAST in the NFL for ave yds per play...pass/rush

...and last but not least...at least when you're a Kansas City Chiefy...29th in points surrendered per game.

With stats like that, you should rename your franchise 'France' & just wave a white flag every week

Sheesh

[Atlas]

Droughns was a fullback converted to tailback. Later in the season his legs showed it. Maybe if he starts out as a feature back he will gain the stamina to play a full season.

I love what Rueben did for the Broncos last season. I wish him well in Cincy.

.

You mean Cleveland

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Wabbit, I just said Miami's run D was BETTER than ours.

And for precisely the reason you stated, yards per carry.

Miami - 4.3

KC - 4.6

[Crushaholic]

If a majority of the moves pay off and the Broncos win their first playoff game since the retirement of John Elway, the joke will be on those of us who dare question the seemingly strange assembly of the 2005 roster. But if the naysayers are right, and things go poorly, a sea of orange-and-blue clad patrons at Invesco Field will have their fingers pointed directly at Shanahan, Sundquist, and Bowlen.

This paragraph has some real merit. I'm tired of the Broncos being slightly above average year after year after year. We brought in people who could get us to that next level. If it doesn't work out, I'm sure there will be calls for a new direction for the Broncos. If (and when) the moves work out for us, the writers will have to eat a lot of crow.

[Odysseus]

I wish this sports writer were a gambling man.

[Odysseus]

With stats like that, you should rename your franchise 'France' & just wave a white flag every week Sheesh

:pity: Poor Bob. Nothing but black dots and a smile.

[-Slap-]

Wabbit, I just said Miami's run D was BETTER than ours.

And for precisely the reason you stated, yards per carry.

Miami - 4.3

KC - 4.6
Philly's run D gave up 4.3, but Corey Simon is worth a truckload of money for some reason.

[wabbit]

Wabbit, I just said Miami's run D was BETTER than ours.

And for precisely the reason you stated, yards per carry.

Miami - 4.3

KC - 4.6

That's great 'Bob


You're the guy telling everybody stats don't mean squat, then throw around the carefully selected, dainty little meaningless tid-bits that suit your argument at any given time.

Your defense was the depths of the devils bowels in 2004, 'Bob

They stunk...the pity of the pitiful...laughing stock of the NFL, hopeless, suicidal, low man on a long pole

If they had been good enough to stop a pee-wee offense, you might've contended for the Super Bowl, but they weren't

SO, please...don't chocolate coat a turd & call it sweet surprise...it is what it is...until it clearly demonstrates it's something better

[Bob's your Information Minister]

You're the guy telling everybody stats don't mean squat, then throw around the carefully selected, dainty little meaningless tid-bits that suit your argument at any given time.

What? No. I've been saying PRESEASON is meaningless. Those stats don't suit my argument, they suit YOURS. I'M AGREEING WITH YOU.


Your defense was the depths of the devils bowels in 2004, 'Bob

They stunk...the pity of the pitiful...laughing stock of the NFL, hopeless, suicidal, low man on a long pole

If they had been good enough to stop a pee-wee offense, you might've contended for the Super Bowl, but they weren't

SO, please...don't chocolate coat a turd & call it sweet surprise...it is what it is...until it clearly demonstrates it's something better

Yes, I know all of this. Who's sugar coating anything? You're rambling on without a point here.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Philly's run D gave up 4.3, but Corey Simon is worth a truckload of money for some reason.

Because he's a pass rushing DT.

[BroncoBuff]

You have too much time on your hands.

So THAT's my problem!

[-Slap-]

Because he's a pass rushing DT.
Believe me, I'm hoping you fools find the money for this guy. I would love it.

[watermock]

You mean Cleveland

Cleveland, Cincy, whats the difference other than Cincy will win a few games. I can't wait to see the motley crue they put together at DL in Cleveland.

[watermock]

Miami's run D was better than ours, even though ours was ranked 12th.

I'll see if you can tell me why.

By the way, Miami had the 2nd ranked secondary, and we added two of their defensive backs. I notice you didn't care to add that.

Wouldn't you agree that defensive backs are more responsible for PASS DEFENSE than RUN DEFENSE?

You do understand that both Knight and Surtain are old and that's why Saban let them go right? You do understand Miami drafted SECOND, right? You do understand you wanted Ty Law, and Rolle, RIGHT.

It's almost painfull to beat you down. But this hurts you more than it hurts me.

[Kaylore]

Philly's run D gave up 4.3, but Corey Simon is worth a truckload of money for some reason.
Ok, I'm glad someone else pointed this out. I trust Andy Reid to make smart coaching moves. I think we can all agree he is a proven coach and one of the best. We can also agree that Simon probably wasn't released because Simon put preassure on Reid to do so. We know how that doesn't work on Reid either. So you gotta wonder what is going here. Obviously Philly knows something we all don't. I'd be warry of picking him up.

[watermock]

What? No. I've been saying PRESEASON is meaningless. Those stats don't suit my argument, they suit YOURS. I'M AGREEING WITH YOU.



Yes, I know all of this. Who's sugar coating anything? You're rambling on without a point here.

Bob, the point was perfectly clear if you could see the trees for the forest. Your defense sucks. Surtain was burnt like a bad roast, and is old. Got a huge signing bonus. Bell, good player, has he played a down yet? Big bonus. Knight? Again, old. Meanwhile the offense is yet another year older. Not to mention the coach.

Preseason isn't meaningless, the W-L is meaningless. It has plenty of meaning. Boob, you never fail to amaze me. Football 101. The preseason is a way to value your team. Considering your team is thin as ice on the first freeze, it warrants paying attention.

Name me an impact player on that team besides maybe Bell if healthy. Our D has 6 IMO. We still have some junk, but even our junk is better than your junk. You will see when your D is again ranked in the bottom third of the league.

[GreatBronco16]

SO, please...don't chocolate coat a turd & call it sweet surprise


Hilarious!

[-Slap-]

Ok, I'm glad someone else pointed this out. I trust Andy Reid to make smart coaching moves. I think we can all agree he is a proven coach and one of the best. We can also agree that Simon probably wasn't released because Simon put preassure on Reid to do so. We know how that doesn't work on Reid either. So you gotta wonder what is going here. Obviously Philly knows something we all don't. I'd be warry of picking him up.
Andy is all about managing the cap. The only guy who's ever going to get paid top dollar in Philly is McNabb.

[Odysseus]

I think the national media response to the Broncos is based on the idea of what I wrote in another thread: This team is not sexy.

They don't have a TO, or a Moss, or a Manning.

This was the problem the Pats faced and look how that fared. I'm actually glad we have NONE of those guys BTW.

I think it's funny HOW Clarett became media foder. Shanny won on that deal on so many levels it's not funny. The media is going is going to play with this like a 5 year old drunk on cough medicine while Broncos quietly go about their business.

[Odysseus]

These acquisitions just do not make sense to those who fail to look below the surface. That is why no one pays them to do it. They pay them to produce an opinion every day that has zero accountability and even less credibility. Great job if you can get it.

When I saw Coyer's first interview I was on the band wagon driving the rig as hard as I could. A lot of people attacked him for bouncing around, what has he done, or hasn't done. He talked about specific results he wanted and problems he was going to address. The defense became my immediate ADOPT-A-BRONCO. The defense hasn't taken a regular season snap and I am already so proud of them.

I think the whole Broncos organization has done some amazing things if you look back over this off season. I remember the bitter fans of this past off season literally throwing anyone off the board who wasn't pissed off. Thanks for the post Mediator. Yup! I just hope all the teams around the league keep reading the newspapers.

[crazyhorse]

I would rather have our 4 running backs without the salary cap hit Droughns wanted, and no Clarrett. Which is where we are.

Droughns didn't get any new money.

And you would still have what is now a wasted 3rd round draft pick.

[Raider Bill]

I can't wait to see the motley crue they put together at DL in Cleveland.

I don't think Nikki Sixx :militia: has enough bulk to hold the point! rofl

[Tredici]

You mean Cleveland


Funnier than that, I typed Cleveland and then changed it to Cincy. You know, one of those Ohio teams that no one seems to notice squandering first round picks on a yearly basis....

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Bob, the point was perfectly clear if you could see the trees for the forest. Your defense sucks. Surtain was burnt like a bad roast, and is old. Got a huge signing bonus. Bell, good player, has he played a down yet? Big bonus. Knight? Again, old. Meanwhile the offense is yet another year older. Not to mention the coach.



Surtain and Knight are both under 30, you dipshiat.

It never ceases to amaze me some of the stuff you post. Did you see our first-team offense zip down the field the other night? Yeah, the window is closed all right.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Believe me, I'm hoping you fools find the money for this guy. I would love it.

You wouldn't want a DT who has 32 sacks in 5 years? Don't lie.