Fetuses May Not Feel Pain in Early Months

[Bronco_Beerslug]

I doubt these scientific findings are what antiabortionists were looking for.

The review by researchers at the University of California, San Francisco comes as advocates are pushing for fetal pain laws aimed at curtailing abortion. Proposed federal legislation would require doctors to provide fetal pain information to women seeking abortions when fetuses are at least 20 weeks old
------------------------------------------------------
By LINDSEY TANNER, AP Medical Writer

CHICAGO - A review of medical evidence has found that fetuses likely don't feel pain until the final months of pregnancy, a powerful challenge to abortion opponents who hope that discussions about fetal pain will make women think twice about ending pregnancies.

Critics angrily disputed the findings and claimed the report is biased.

"They have literally stuck their hands into a hornet's nest," said Dr. Kanwaljeet Anand, a fetal pain researcher at the University of Arkansas for Medical Sciences, who believes fetuses as young as 20 weeks old feel pain. "This is going to inflame a lot of scientists who are very, very concerned and are far more knowledgeable in this area than the authors appear to be. This is not the last word — definitely not."

The review by researchers at the University of California, San Francisco comes as advocates are pushing for fetal pain laws aimed at curtailing abortion. Proposed federal legislation would require doctors to provide fetal pain information to women seeking abortions when fetuses are at least 20 weeks old, and to offer women fetal anesthesia at that stage of the pregnancy. A handful of states have enacted similar measures.

But the report, appearing in Wednesday's
Journal of the American Medical Association, says that offering fetal pain relief during abortions in the fifth or sixth months of pregnancy is misguided and might result in unacceptable health risks to women.

Dr. Nancy Chescheir, chairman of obstetrics and gynecology at Vanderbilt University and a board director at the Society of Maternal-Fetal Medicine, said the article "will help to develop some consensus" on when fetuses feel pain. "To date, there hasn't been any."

The researchers reviewed dozens of studies and medical reports and said the data indicate that fetuses likely are incapable of feeling pain until around the seventh month of pregnancy, when they are about 28 weeks old.

While brain structures involved in feeling pain begin forming much earlier, research indicates they likely do not function until the pregnancy's final stages, said the report's senior author, UCSF obstetric anesthesiologist Dr. Mark Rosen.

Based on the evidence, discussions of fetal pain for abortions performed before the end of the second trimester should not be mandatory, the researchers said.

The authors include the administrator of a UCSF abortion clinic, but the researchers dispute the claim that the report is biased.

Dr. Catherine DeAngelis, JAMA's editor-in-chief, said the decision to publish the review was not politically motivated.

"Oh, please," DeAngelis said. "If I had a political agenda, I wouldn't pick fetal pain."

JAMA does not publish "politically motivated science. We publish data-based, evidence-based science," DeAngelis said.

The measure pending in Congress would affect about 18,000 U.S. abortions a year performed in the fifth month of pregnancy or later, said Douglas Johnson, legislative director of the
National Right to Life Committee. He said the review is slanted.

But Rosen said the researchers "tried to review the literature in an unbiased fashion. This was a multidisciplinary effort by experts on anesthesia, neuroanatomy, obstetrics and neonatal development."

Rosen also said that administering anesthesia or painkillers to the fetus could pose health risks to the mother.

When doctors operate on fetuses to correct defects before birth, general anesthesia is given to the mother primarily to immobilize the fetus and to make the uterus relax, Rosen said. Anesthesia during fetal surgery increases the mother's risks for breathing problems and bleeding from a relaxed uterus, the researchers said.

Rosen said those risks are medically acceptable when the goal is to save the fetus but there's not enough evidence to show any benefit from fetus-directed anesthesia during an abortion.

Administering anesthesia directly to the fetus is also sometimes done but generally to reduce the release of potentially harmful fetal stress hormones, Rosen said. There is little research on its effects, the authors said.

Anand, the researcher from Arkansas, said the authors excluded or minimized evidence suggesting fetal pain sensation begins in the second trimester and wrongly assume that fetuses' brains sense pain in the same way as adult brains.

While Anand has testified as an expert witness for the government in court cases opposing some late-term abortions, he said he is not anti-abortion and that his views are based on years of fetal pain research.
http://tinyurl.com/7vz6c

[Mile High Shack]

LOL

sure

[TheDave]

Not really any suprise... Pain is a fairly complex neurological event. Even if the pathways are established at such an early stage i would bet there is no way for such an immature brain to be able to process/understand such information. In any event, i doubt that this will mean much to pro-life proponents. My family members are all against abortion because of their religious beliefs.

[Mile High Shack]

Not really any suprise... Pain is a fairly complex neurological event. Even if the pathways are established at such an early stage i would bet there is no way for such an immature brain to be able to process/understand such information. In any event, i doubt that this will mean much to pro-life proponents. My family members are all against abortion because of their religious beliefs.

mostly b/c I don't believe it myself, there is no way of knowing...........

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

In any event, i doubt that this will mean much to pro-life proponents.

You can bank on that.

http://www.rense.com/1.imagesG/chlife.jpg

(Courtesy of Riggs11)

[Bronco_Beerslug]

mostly b/c I don't believe it myself, there is no way of knowing...........
No way of knowing what?

[Mile High Shack]

No way of knowing what?
Whether for sure 100% sure that a child can feel pain in the womb (not calling it a fetus, it’s a child)

Hey, whatever helps people sleep at night that kill a child I suppose, like a puppy, aaaa he didn’t feel any pain.

[Rohirrim]

That's one way to side-step an ethical decision.

[Mile High Shack]

That's one way to side-step an ethical decision.

how is it side stepping

it's my personal belief it's murder

but like I said, whatever helps people sleep at night that do it.........

[Rohirrim]

how is it side stepping

it's my personal belief it's murder

but like I said, whatever helps people sleep at night that do it.........

I was referring to the article.

[Mile High Shack]

I was referring to the article.

aaaa

sorry about that chief :)

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Whether for sure 100% sure that a child can feel pain in the womb (not calling it a fetus, it’s a child)

Hey, whatever helps people sleep at night that kill a child I suppose, like a puppy, aaaa he didn’t feel any pain.
So the people who pushed legislation against abortion through in several states based on a fetus being able to feel pain are wrong then?

[Rascal]

"A review of medical evidence has found that fetuses likely don't feel pain until the final months of pregnancy."

Bush also said it was likely WMD's were in Iraq.

Nuff said.

[Mile High Shack]

So the people who pushed legislation against abortion through in several states based on a fetus being able to feel pain are wrong then?

see below at rascal's response

[Bronco_Beerslug]

see below at rascal's response
I did and what? You didn't answer my question. Comparing Bush's covering up of Iraqi intelligence to scientific research is quite the reach but that isn't the question.

[Rascal]

So the people who pushed legislation against abortion through in several states based on a fetus being able to feel pain are wrong then?

Nope, because the link you posted has several quotes of other scientists who doubt these claims. And it has a key term "likely" so even they are not 100% sure about it. That is a pretty ambiguous term for a research paper and serverly dampens the validity of that paper regardless of what conclusions it came to...even Dave will agree with that.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Nope, because the link you posted has several quotes of other scientists who doubt these claims. And it has a key term "likely" so even they are not 100% sure about it. That is a pretty ambiguous term for a research paper and serverly dampens the validity of that paper regardless of what conclusions it came to...even Dave will agree with that.
You missed the question too.




And I only seen one researcher (anti-abortion) who commented against the findings in that article.

[Rascal]

No I didn't miss it. I just didn't answer it the way you wanted.

You asked if they were wrong and I said no and explained why.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

No I didn't miss it. I just didn't answer it the way you wanted.

You asked if they were wrong and I said no and explained why.

You didn't explain anything.

The question to MHS is (since he said there is no way to know that a fetus feels pain or not) legislation that prohibits abortions because a fetus experiences pain is wrong then?

I mean if there is no way of knowing how can you legislate the pain subject one way or the other?

[Rascal]

Again, no it isn't wrong because "...it has a key term "likely" so even they are not 100% sure about it. That is a pretty ambiguous term for a research paper and serverly dampens the validity of that paper regardless of what conclusions it came to..."

[REB]

What difference does it make? There are a number of ways a person can murder another person without them feeling pain but it's still murder.

REB

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Again, no it isn't wrong because "And it has a key term "likely" so even they are not 100% sure about it. That is a pretty ambiguous term for a research paper and serverly dampens the validity of that paper regardless of what conclusions it came to...even Dave will agree with that."

You're not READING the question :) It's about the statement "there is no way of knowing". So, based on THAT statement how can legislation be passed that says a fetus feels pain? Where are the facts that shows a fetus feels pain?

[bendog]

I don't know. I'm not willing to tell a woman what to do or not to do. It's just not polite, and besides they can get bitchy over nothing at all, so why antagonize them. It's like the barking dog on my walks. I just try to ignore it, and hope it stays on it's side of the fence.

but I remember when Mrs Dog had amnio and the fetus swam over to look at the needle. If it has that intelligence .....

OT but we know a family where the doc stuck the amnio needle in and took out an eye ..... cringe.

[Rascal]

Well I didn't make the statement so I don't know.

My point is this...even the article itself says "likely" and being only one paper that should not be something to base one's decision off of.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Well I didn't make the statement so I don't know.

My point is this...even the article itself says "likely" and being only one paper that should not be something to base one's decision off of.


So does this include people who make laws saying a fetus DOES feel pain?






And this was many researchers anaylzing years of medical studies.....


Dr. Nancy Chescheir, chairman of obstetrics and gynecology at Vanderbilt University and a board director at the Society of Maternal-Fetal Medicine, said the article "will help to develop some consensus" on when fetuses feel pain. "To date, there hasn't been any."

The researchers reviewed dozens of studies and medical reports and said the data indicate that fetuses likely are incapable of feeling pain until around the seventh month of pregnancy, when they are about 28 weeks old.

While brain structures involved in feeling pain begin forming much earlier, research indicates they likely do not function until the pregnancy's final stages, said the report's senior author, UCSF obstetric anesthesiologist Dr. Mark Rosen.

Based on the evidence, discussions of fetal pain for abortions performed before the end of the second trimester should not be mandatory, the researchers said.

[Rascal]

Yeap. I would rather error on the side.

So they didn't actually do the work themselves then did they? They took stuff from other people and took the sections they wanted (they could be biased for all I know despite their claims).

[El Guapo]

key words from the title:

"MAY NOT feel pain." 'nuff said. still you're killing something thats alive.

[Rascal]

key words from the title:

"MAY NOT feel pain." 'nuff said. still you're killing something thats alive.

Exactly. They themselves are not 100% sure and it's still murder.

Like Shack said, if it makes you sleep better at night then go ahead.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Yeap. I would rather error on the side.

So they didn't actually do the work themselves then did they? They took stuff from other people and took the sections they wanted (they could be biased for all I know despite their claims).
I see no one wants to actually answer the question. That's OK, I really didn't expect to get one.

[Sideburn]

What difference does it make? There are a number of ways a person can murder another person without them feeling pain but it's still murder.

REB

This is your answer beerslug. You're just to blind to see it. You see something one way, and they see it another. I don't know one person that is anti-abortion because of the pain factor. They are anti-abortion because of their perception that it is killing an innocent being.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

This is your answer beerslug. You're just to blind to see it. You see something one way, and they see it another. I don't know one person that is anti-abortion because of the pain factor. They are anti-abortion because of their perception that it is killing an innocent being.

Wrong, it's not an answer and that's why I'm asking the pro life crowd to answer the legislative question. I don't care what the views of the scientists in the article are.

I want to know, if there is no way to know for sure if a fetus feels pain or not, how is it correct for legislators to pass laws saying abortion is illegal BECAUSE of the PAIN a fetus suffers.

Is this question so difficult for you all to understand?

[Rascal]

BECAUSE THERE IS NO WAY TO KNOW OR IT IS NOT 100%!!!!!

That is your answer. If there is a chance then that % is to great because of what is being done (killing somebody).

Is it so difficult of an answer for you to understand. We all seem to get it, but you don't...that should tell you something.

[Sideburn]

Wrong, it's not an answer and that's why I'm asking the pro life crowd to answer the legislative question. I don't care what the views of the scientists in the article are.

I want to know, if there is no way to know for sure if a fetus feels pain or not, how is it correct for legislators to pass laws saying abortion is illegal BECAUSE of the PAIN a fetus suffers.

Is this question so difficult for you all to understand?
First off, don't lump me into the prolife crowd. You don't know me, I've never voiced my stance on it, so don't put me into your box. Honestly I don't care one way or the other. My only problem with abortion is its use as birth control. Second, just because it's not the answer that you agree with, doesn't make it any less of an answer.

Every person here that is pro-life has said the exact same thing over and over. They consider it an unjust murder of a living being. What part of this do you not understand? Can they not believe how they want, just as you believe how you want? You're asking a question to the wrong set of people. You want to know how is it correct for legislators to pass laws saying abortion is illegal because of the pain a fetus suffers. Why don't you ask the legislators that are trying to pass these laws? I'm sure they will be more than happy to attempt to answer your question.

[Merlin]

Simple question. Of those of you who are against abortion, how many base it on the Bible. Those of you who don't base it on the Bible, what do you base it on, especially since an objective ethical claims is being made?

PS, these questions are posted in order to engage in a genuine discussion, not some simpleton flame fest.

Merlin

[Bronco_Beerslug]

OK, one last time. I don't care what your views are on abortion. This question isn't about my views or your views.

The question is, if it's not possible to say whether a fetus feels pain or not, how is it possible to pass laws banning abortion based on fetal pain?

Don't answer this with your personal views on abortion but answer it on the actual law. The only reason I brought this up was because MHS said it's not possible to know if a fetus is able to feel pain.

If that's the case how is possible to pass laws banning abortion using fetal pain as the basis of that law?



First off, don't lump me into the prolife crowd. You don't know me, I've never voiced my stance on it, so don't put me into your box. Honestly I don't care one way or the other. My only problem with abortion is its use as birth control. Second, just because it's not the answer that you agree with, doesn't make it any less of an answer.


Please see above and I didn't lump you into the prolife crowd.


BECAUSE THERE IS NO WAY TO KNOW OR IT IS NOT 100%!!!!!

That is your answer. If there is a chance then that % is to great because of what is being done (killing somebody).

Is it so difficult of an answer for you to understand. We all seem to get it, but you don't...that should tell you something.
You're not getting it yet either. I'm not talking about anything but the law in question, NOTHING else.

[Crushaholic]

Simple question. Of those of you who are against abortion, how many base it on the Bible. Those of you who don't base it on the Bible, what do you base it on, especially since an objective ethical claims is being made?

PS, these questions are posted in order to engage in a genuine discussion, not some simpleton flame fest.

Merlin

Interesting you mention that. When I was in college, I was the president of the college pro-life group. I always based my views on logic, but most of the group members wanted to emphasize the religious aspects of the effort. I resigned because nobody wanted to use logic to convince people that it's a baby upon conception. They just wanted to throw out Bible quotes and call it good.

[Rohirrim]

Simple question. Of those of you who are against abortion, how many base it on the Bible. Those of you who don't base it on the Bible, what do you base it on, especially since an objective ethical claims is being made?

PS, these questions are posted in order to engage in a genuine discussion, not some simpleton flame fest.

Merlin

The pain factor would only be one element of an objective, ethical argument. Another factor would be simple consciousness. Is it a conscious being? Can we determine that, one way or the other? And if we can't, can we still make a choice of life or death?

[Spider]

Abortion is wrong but I am pro choice ...... hell I have 3 kids , but to me Abortion is a in house problem .. goverment has enough control over me and my kids , damn if they and the christians dont want to give them more ....... bottom line , you dont like abortion ? watch who you sleep with , and if a gal gets knocked up . do the right thing , and if you cant Pay your fúcking child support ......
If your daughter gets knocked up , dont kick her out of the house , it is your problem also , chip in help raise your grandchild ...... buy diapers , food , clothes , baby sit without charging your family .......
These women make a bad choice , and then people turn their back on them cause they dont want the headache , Old People want to travel ......

[Mile High Shack]

plus there are many couples who have to go overseas to adopt b/c there aren't as many babies to adopt b/c people kill them and don't adopt them out

[Spider]

Well how in the hell will you trust a woman to raise a baby when you cant trust her with the abortion choice ?
Hell Abortion is legal now and how many times do we hear about a baby left abandon , in garbage cans , stores , or just killed .......
Abortion isnt an answer , education and strong family support is the answer but we have to many selfish ****s running around ........

[BroncoInferno]

plus there are many couples who have to go overseas to adopt b/c there aren't as many babies to adopt b/c people kill them and don't adopt them out

Actually, this isn't quite true. There are some 10,000 couples on adoption waiting lists in the US. Most of these couples are white and want to adopt a white child. Couples who go overseas generally do so because the process is much quicker and for the humanitarian belief that they are pulling that child out of a country where there is no hope.

[Hogan11]

You guys must just debate this subject for fun.....everyone has their view on it and nobody is gonna change anyone else's mind about it no matter what kind of upset lather they work themselves into when they encounter the opposite view...........

it's utterly pointless to debate this subject, especially again and again and again.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

You guys must just debate this subject for fun.....everyone has their view on it and nobody is gonna change anyone else's mind about it no matter what kind of upset lather they work themselves into when they encounter the opposite view...........

it's utterly pointless to debate this subject, especially again and again and again.
Hah! That's what they said about Bush a couple years ago. No one here now claims they like him and most don't like to admit they voted for him. :wiggle:

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Bush also said it was likely WMD's were in Iraq.

Nuff said.

:bs:

Cheney, Powell, et al, didn't say it was "likely" that Iraq had WMD - they said, unequivocally, that Iraq had these weapons.

Furthermore, Dumbsfeld said the misadministration knew where the weapons were located.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

"MAY NOT feel pain." 'nuff said. still you're killing something thats alive.

Golly, we wouldn't want to do that now, would we?

http://www.robert-fisk.com/bloodied_child_3.jpg

Why, it wouldn't be "Christian."

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

BECAUSE THERE IS NO WAY TO KNOW OR IT IS NOT 100%!!!!!

That is your answer. If there is a chance then that % is to great because of what is being done (killing somebody).

Is it so difficult of an answer for you to understand. We all seem to get it, but you don't...that should tell you something.

It's not difficult to understand why Ratscal and his fellow "pro-life" bush-blowers are hypocritical dirtbags...

http://www.albasrah.net/images/war_crimes/images/0_jpg.gif

[Spider]

Sad picture of that Baby ...... I would be crushed if that was one of my kids I was holding like that ..... fúcking picture put a lump in my throat .......

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

..... fúcking picture put a lump in my throat .......

Me too. Big time.

And then it made me madder than hell.

Smug punks like Ratscal and Rat Turd need to be shown pictures like these everyday until the war ends - just so they can see what they are cheering for.

[Rohirrim]

You guys must just debate this subject for fun.....everyone has their view on it and nobody is gonna change anyone else's mind about it no matter what kind of upset lather they work themselves into when they encounter the opposite view...........

it's utterly pointless to debate this subject, especially again and again and again.

The reason I like to debate the subject is because I can't make up my mind about it, and in the crucible of the argument, sometimes I find a new way of thinking about something. I pretty much ignore the fringes on both sides. Frothing irritates me. But it seems to me the crucial, ethical issue of our times (tied in with stem cell research and euthanasia). Plus, this kind of argument is the all about the stuff I grew up on (Azimov, Huxley, Do Androids Dream of Electric Sleep, What is life?, What is consciousness? etc.)

[Rascal]

Hah! That's what they said about Bush a couple years ago. No one here now claims they like him and most don't like to admit they voted for him. :wiggle:

I voted for him and I still like him.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I voted for him and I still like him.

I think BB was referring to those folks whose IQs were at least greater than their shoe sizes.

:D

[bendog]

I admit to having mixed feelings on abortion (libertarian leanings at odds with "liberalism") but geez I wish these born again nutters would get out of the White House and turn it back over to adults.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050826/ap_on_he_me/morning_after_pill

[DawgPound14]

I admit to having mixed feelings on abortion (libertarian leanings at odds with "liberalism") but geez I wish these born again nutters would get out of the White House and turn it back over to adults.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050826/ap_on_he_me/morning_after_pill


???? What Adults??? Democrats? Clinton's? Kerry? Lib's are so damn pathetic! They have no ****ing moral values whatsoever?? Who cares if a fetus feels pain? I could put a bullet in someones head and they may not feel it but it doesn't make it right. Abortion is wrong. A pregnant mom does not have the right to decide whether that child lives or dies. Nowhere by law is she granted that right. The only thing she is doing is violating that baby's inaliable right to LIFE!

[TheDave]

???? What Adults??? Democrats? Clinton's? Kerry? Lib's are so damn pathetic! They have no ****ing moral values whatsoever?? Who cares if a fetus feels pain? I could put a bullet in someones head and they may not feel it but it doesn't make it right. Abortion is wrong. A pregnant mom does not have the right to decide whether that child lives or dies. Nowhere by law is she granted that right. The only thing she is doing is violating that baby's inaliable right to LIFE!

Does mom know your on the computer?

[Spider]

???? What Adults??? Democrats? Clinton's? Kerry? Lib's are so damn pathetic! They have no ****ing moral values whatsoever?? Who cares if a fetus feels pain? I could put a bullet in someones head and they may not feel it but it doesn't make it right. Abortion is wrong. A pregnant mom does not have the right to decide whether that child lives or dies. Nowhere by law is she granted that right. The only thing she is doing is violating that baby's inaliable right to LIFE!
If you mean Republican moral Values ,http://72.22.74.110/BB/showthread.php?t=26393 then would rather be without morals , but then this explains why Reps are anti Abortion .... they see abortion as 1 less piece of ass in a few years ..... Sick focks

[DawgPound14]

If you mean Republican moral Values ,http://72.22.74.110/BB/showthread.php?t=26393 then would rather be without morals , but then this explains why Reps are anti Abortion .... they see abortion as 1 less piece of ass in a few years ..... Sick focks

Thank you Spider for posting some regurgitated liberal propaganda without providing a source.

What I find funniest about this list is the wide use of the word republican followed by a no name with a low-level job. Come on, city councilman? Republican activist? There are millions of them. Spot checking your list, none of them are important enough to deserve a page 9 newspaper article. Arnold is a joke so don't try that one. You know who was? Serial killer and Democratic Precinct Captain John Wayne Gacy. Murdered and raped 33 people, some of whom were teenage boys. Of course, any rational person wouldn't associate this man with the entire democratic party, but I guess rationality isn't your strong point.

[Rascal]

Does mom know your on the computer?

pretty weak Dave.

[TheDave]

pretty weak Dave.

damn i didn't get Rascal's approval...

[Rascal]

you need a tissue?

[TheDave]

you need a tissue?

Nah, with enough therapy i should be able to get through this...

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

The only thing she is doing is violating that baby's inaliable(sic) right to LIFE!

Wouldn't want that now, would we?

http://www.robert-fisk.com/bloodied_child_3.jpg

Reality check for DawgPound and his fellow right-wingnut hypocrites:

The smirking sociopath in the WH is violating thousands of innocent infants' and children's "inalienable right to life" in his illegal aggression against Iraq everyday.

[Rascal]

So you don't care about a baby being killed?

And you accuse us of not having morals due to that thread Spider started. BRILLIANT!!!

Bush has nothing to do with the abortion issue try again.

[Hogan11]

???? What Adults??? Democrats? Clinton's? Kerry? Lib's are so damn pathetic! They have no ****ing moral values whatsoever??

"Morality is the best of all devices for leading mankind by the nose" - Nietzsche

[Rascal]

Nah, with enough therapy i should be able to get through this...

Charge it to the gov't.

:alky:

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Right-wing hypocrites like Ratscal claim to value life, but they actually support this:

http://www.robert-fisk.com/bloodied_child_3.jpg

[Spider]

Thank you Spider for posting some regurgitated liberal propaganda without providing a source.
LOL you need a source ? you cant go to google and type in republican/Democrat sex offenders ? and you want to tell us how stupid Dems are ? :giggle:

What I find funniest about this list is the wide use of the word republican followed by a no name with a low-level job. Come on, city councilman? Republican activist? There are millions of them. Spot checking your list, none of them are important enough to deserve a page 9 newspaper article. Arnold is a joke so don't try that one. You know who was? Serial killer and Democratic Precinct Captain John Wayne Gacy. Murdered and raped 33 people, some of whom were teenage boys. Of course, any rational person wouldn't associate this man with the entire democratic party, but I guess rationality isn't your strong point.
LOL .. so I see they are not important enough to worry about ..... How about hte kids they molested ? are the small time also ?
you baby fockers are all the same ........ Oh and Gacy was scum that got what he deserved in the end , wouldnt you agree ?
I wont bring up Ted Bundy though , there is enough elected Republican on that list , that I dont have to bring Ted Bundy in :giggle:

[Rohirrim]

"Morality is the best of all devices for leading mankind by the nose" - Nietzsche

It was Hitler's favorite. :thumbsup:

[Hogan11]

It was Hitler's favorite. :thumbsup:

The Nazi's twisted and bastardized Nietzsche to suit their own purposes.....they did the same with almost everything else they encountered, from Nostradamus to Christianity.

Nietzsche, as well as Nihilism, has nothing to do with Nazism.

[Rohirrim]

The Nazi's twisted and bastardized Nietzsche to suit their own purposes.....they did the same with almost everything else they encountered, from Nostradamus to Christianity.

Nietzsche, as well as Nihilism, has nothing to do with Nazism.

That's not what I was saying. I meant that Hitler used the concept of a "superior, Aryan morality" to lead the German people by the nose, much like the neocons are trying to sell their (mythical) Christian superiority. I was agreeing with Nietzsche.

[Hogan11]

That's not what I was saying. I meant that Hitler used the concept of a "superior, Aryan morality" to lead the German people by the nose, much like the neocons are trying to sell their (mythical) Christian superiority. I was agreeing with Nietzsche.

Ah gotcha.....pardon me, I just got up and am in need of more mocha java. Ha!

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

That's not what I was saying. I meant that Hitler used the concept of a "superior, Aryan morality" to lead the German people by the nose, much like the neocons are trying to sell their (mythical) Christian superiority.

That this is no accident is evidenced by the historical relationship between the bush crime family and the Nazis.

[SimonFletcherRules!]

so what's your take on late term abortion beer slug?

You know, the process where the 'doctor' reaches in and grabs the baby, who is noticeably squirming and trying to get away, then inserts a device that breaks a hole in the baby's skull and sucks it's little brains out.

Where is that vaunted compassion for the people when atrocious **** like that is going on?

[Bronco_Beerslug]

so what's your take on late term abortion beer slug?

You know, the process where the 'doctor' reaches in and grabs the baby, who is noticeably squirming and trying to get away, then inserts a device that breaks a hole in the baby's skull and sucks it's little brains out.

Where is that vaunted compassion for the people when atrocious **** like that is going on?
I have no problem with late term abortion.

When it's necessary.

But that isn't what this article is about. It's about when a fetus can feel pain and the right legislating laws based on fetus pain.