D. Williams sure to help out denvers D

[OrangeShadow]

By Jim Armstrong
Denver Post Staff Columnist



Two bits, four bits, six bits, a note ...

The biggest story of Broncos training camp? Bradlee Van Pelt.

The most controversial story of Broncos training camp? Maurice Clarett.

The story no one is talking about, but should? Darrent Williams.

Forget that stuff about Williams contributing as a kick returner as a rookie. He's going to do a lot more than that. Williams has all but locked up the nickel-back job, which means he'll be on the field for almost half the plays - more than half, with his kick-return duties.

For a scouting report on Williams, let's go to Champ Bailey, the Broncos' best corner.

"All I know is he's a player," Bailey said. "I love his competitiveness. He plays with a lot of confidence. He's going to have a lot on his plate returning kicks and playing corner, but he can handle it. The guy has definitely exceeded what you would expect from a rookie. I expect him to get better and better." ...

The NFL team carrying the longest winning streak on opening day? That would be none other than your Denver Broncos, at four and counting. The Bronx also have the best opening-day winning percentage (29-15-1, .659) in the AFC, not counting relative newcomers Houston and Jacksonville. ...

Somewhere out there, a handful of surprise teams are lurking in NFL training camps. To wit: The league has experienced eight consecutive seasons in which at least five new teams have made the playoffs. ...

How much are the rules rigged to facilitate passing in today's NFL? Consider this: Last season NFL quarterbacks had a combined passer rating of 82.8, higher than John Elway's career rating of 79.8. ...

But then, passer ratings don't always tell the tale. How do we know? Because Brian Griese, at 85.3, has the 11th-highest rating in NFL history. ...

Notre Dame coach Charlie Weis tells The Associated Press why he always wears one of his Patriots Super Bowl rings with him on recruiting trips: "Like I tell my wife, 'If I can get them to look at my hand instead of my face, I've got a chance."' ...

Just so you know: 49ers rookie Alex Smith wears No. 11 because he couldn't get No. 7 at Utah. He wore No. 7 in high school as a tribute to his favorite player, Elway. ...

The league office, by the way, counts 24 Hispanic players on NFL rosters. The biggest names in the bunch? Tony Gonzalez, Adam Archuleta, Jeff Garcia and J.P. Losman. ...

Random thought du jour: He hits like his dad, but it's nice to see that Dante Bichette Jr., tearing it up at the Li'l League World Series, looks like his mom. ...

Turns out the Royals did more than lose 19 consecutive games. They also blew a great note. One more loss and K.C. outfielder Terrence Long would have become the first player to play for a team that won 20 in a row (the 2002 A's) and lost 20 in a row. ...

Football may be the national pastime, but it's going to have to wait its turn. Why? Because the wild card in baseball has turned August and September into compelling theater. And we owe it all to Bud Selig, a Ford dealer from Milwaukee who pushed the new system through in the mid-1990s amid heavy criticism. ...

Itemized: According to the London tabs, Maria Sharapova is dating Maroon 5 singer Adam Levine. ...

And finally, happy birthday to Julio Franco, still going strong at age ... I'll have to get back to you on that one. According to this baseball fact book of mine, he's 44, but he admits to 47.

Hey, don't ask me. I thought he sailed with Christopher Columbus.

[footstepsfrom#27]

The NFL team carrying the longest winning streak on opening day? That would be none other than your Denver Broncos, at four and counting.
Huh?

[bloodsunday]

I have two thoughts on this:

1) I told you so (at least some of you). Denver drafted a special teams specialist (pardon the redundancy) with a 2nd round pick (or so they thought). That aspect of it pisses me off to no end because there are better ways to acquire that help (see Tim Dwight, Chad Owens) while still getting quality roster help in the 2nd round. Shanny seems to zone in on one position too much for my liking. Once he decides where he needs to go, he just goes regardless of how the board unfolds. I think that is obvious by our 3 dozen CBs and DL and no help on the OL or WR. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. Having said that, the fact that he has turned out to be more of a player then they thought/hoped is a huge bonus. But, had they known he would be this good, could they have gone another direction with either the Foxworth or Paymah picks? I just don't see all 3 contributing this year with Walls looking solid at #2.

2) It is still preseason. He hasn't shown much during games in terms of return ability which I find ironic (see the above thought). Let's keep the enthusiam to at least a mild happiness for now.

[ludo21]

I have two thoughts on this:

1) I told you so (at least some of you). Denver drafted a special teams specialist (pardon the redundancy) with a 2nd round pick (or so they thought). That aspect of it pisses me off to no end because there are better ways to acquire that help (see Tim Dwight, Chad Owens) while still getting quality roster help in the 2nd round. Shanny seems to zone in on one position too much for my liking. Once he decides where he needs to go, he just goes regardless of how the board unfolds. I think that is obvious by our 3 dozen CBs and DL and no help on the OL or WR. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. Having said that, the fact that he has turned out to be more of a player then they thought/hoped is a huge bonus. But, had they known he would be this good, could they have gone another direction with either the Foxworth or Paymah picks? I just don't see all 3 contributing this year with Walls looking solid at #2.

2) It is still preseason. He hasn't shown much during games in terms of return ability which I find ironic (see the above thought). Let's keep the enthusiam to at least a mild happiness for now.


Have you seen Foxworth and Paymah play? They have played pretty welll when there in the game. Besides the 1 TD that the rook got burnt for these guys have played solid and will contribute to the team when the need for depth at cb arrives(which it always does btw).

[bloodsunday]

Have you seen Foxworth and Paymah play? They have played pretty welll when there in the game. Besides the 1 TD that the rook got burnt for these guys have played solid and will contribute to the team when the need for depth at cb arrives(which it always does btw).
Yeah I watched them play and they looked pretty good. But we have a solid 3 in front of them. We are paper thin on the OL and WR, which is more to my point. Shanny took a specialist in the 2nd round, who turned out to be a good CB. Then he followed that up with 2 more DBs, because he took a specialist. Now it looks like we got 3 good corners, not a bad thing except that we had other positions of need. We still have LeSeur, Shoate (if he survives), and Alexander coming back from last year's class. Browner could still heal in time to contribute and Cox was looking pretty good at CB before they moved him.

Put another way, they say that to judge the effectiveness of your passing game you should compare your #3 WR to the oppositions nickel back. On defense, I think we are in good shape with D Williams, especially after a little seasoning. On offense I think we are screwed. Our #3 WR position (all candidates included) doesn't look like they'll be able to beat even an average nickel back.

[TheReverend]

Great post. I expect big things from D.W.

[Tom G]

If Williams was 6-0, he would have been a high 1st rounder. Give the Broncos credit for drafting a Darrell Green clone with a low 2nd round choice (Green was a 1st rounder in '83) and get a returner to boot.

[bloodsunday]

If Williams was 6-0, he would have been a high 1st rounder. Give the Broncos credit for drafting a Darrell Green clone with a low 2nd round choice (Green was a 1st rounder in '83) and get a returner to boot.
Except I don't give them credit because every indication -- including reports, interviews and their other selections -- suggest that they took him as a returner, not a DB. And he hasn't even looked that good returning the football!!!!!!

I like the kid and I think he was a great acquisition. They got lucky. I just think the philosophy to drafting is flawed and its going to bite us sooner or later.

[footstepsfrom#27]

I just think the philosophy to drafting is flawed and its going to bite us sooner or later.
What would you call 6 years w/o a playoff win?

[SpringStein]

Except I don't give them credit because every indication -- including reports, interviews and their other selections -- suggest that they took him as a returner, not a DB. And he hasn't even looked that good returning the football!!!!!!

I like the kid and I think he was a great acquisition. They got lucky. I just think the philosophy to drafting is flawed and its going to bite us sooner or later.

Wake up on the wrong side of the bed? As far as returns are concerned, watching the game the other night, Adams had lanes to run to - I never saw that for Darrent. Football is still a team game and success is related to everyone doing their job. Darrent will be great when there are opportunities.

[Tom G]

To follow up, I was not at all happy with the draft at the time, but it looks like Shanny has hit a home run with the 3 (4 counting Browner) new DBs. Having 3 CBs that run 4.3 40s and can cover to boot is winning strategy on Shannys part. I may have to concede that maybe Shanny knows more than I do on draft day.

(Nah. Don't get carried away, Tom.)

[footstepsfrom#27]

To follow up, I was not at all happy with the draft at the time, but it looks like Shanny has hit a home run with the 3 (4 counting Browner) new DBs. Having 3 CBs that run 4.3 40s and can cover to boot is winning strategy on Shannys part. I may have to concede that maybe Shanny knows more than I do on draft day.

(Nah. Don't get carried away, Tom.)
I agree that the current crop of rook DB's is a great asset, especially with the new rules. His point is about our philosophy, which over the long haul won't be so successful every time. If we're going to do this next year, lets grab 4 WR's and 4OL guys to make sure we get one good one at each position.

[fontaine]

I have two thoughts on this:

1) I told you so (at least some of you). Denver drafted a special teams specialist (pardon the redundancy) with a 2nd round pick (or so they thought). That aspect of it pisses me off to no end because there are better ways to acquire that help (see Tim Dwight, Chad Owens) while still getting quality roster help in the 2nd round. Shanny seems to zone in on one position too much for my liking. Once he decides where he needs to go, he just goes regardless of how the board unfolds. I think that is obvious by our 3 dozen CBs and DL and no help on the OL or WR. The squeaky wheel gets the grease.

I dunno about that. Didn't Shanahan have D. Williams rated higher as a CB than some of the first round guys? I agree that D. Williams should have been taken since he was one of the best coverage guys in the combine but I agree that taking 3 CBs was overkill considering how well Lenny Walls has looked.

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

I dunno about that. Didn't Shanahan have D. Williams rated higher as a CB than some of the first round guys? I agree that D. Williams should have been taken since he was one of the best coverage guys in the combine but I agree that taking 3 CBs was overkill considering how well Lenny Walls has looked.

Well, if you remember Shanahan's interviews after the draft, he said they really agonized over picking Foxworth as a third CB, but in the end felt he was head and shoulders above anyone else left on their board. I don't think there was any master plan to pick three. The chips just fell that way.

[Mediator12]

I think you are overemphasizing the specialist part and underemphasizing that all three CB's are coming along faster than expected. None of them were drafted to be #2 CB's this year. However, they all may be better quicker than most CB's at this level.

We all know that OG is the biggest conern for this team outside of QB depth wise. WR is possibly a problem, but all the top 6 guys would beat almost any team's nickle CB regularly IMHO. Their are not that many teams with a Quality Nickle back. Certainly none in the AFCW. Not many in the whole NFL. Remember how desperate SF was for Middlebrooks as a Nickle back. Kelly Herndon got 3 million a year to be the Nickle for the Seahawks!

[bloodsunday]

I dunno about that. Didn't Shanahan have D. Williams rated higher as a CB than some of the first round guys? I agree that D. Williams should have been taken since he was one of the best coverage guys in the combine but I agree that taking 3 CBs was overkill considering how well Lenny Walls has looked.
Sure he's going to say that. But if you read between the lines the pick was about one thing -- a return man. If he thought Williams was that good a DB, would he still have his next two picks on DBs after letting a cheap starter (Herndon) leave and drafting 2 last year? God I hope not or we are worse off then I thought. I'm sure they planned/hoped that D Williams would become a pretty DB down the road. In fact, I saw a quote from Lynch after the Houston game and he said (paraphrasing) that they were told Williams was coming in to help the return game and that his play at DB was a bonus. (I can't find the quote now because DenverBroncos.com is down).

[Bronco9798]

Wake up on the wrong side of the bed? As far as returns are concerned, watching the game the other night, Adams had lanes to run to - I never saw that for Darrent. Football is still a team game and success is related to everyone doing their job. Darrent will be great when there are opportunities.

Great retuners also create their own opportunites. Blocking is all fundamentals, but when it breaks down you want a guy that can create and use his speed/moves to make great returns. Anyone can return a kick if he has the proper blocking and a little bit of speed.

With that said, I would think once Williams get's some more time, he'll be able to do that. I still think Adams has a leg up on him right now.

[IHaveALight]

Sure he's going to say that. But if you read between the lines the pick was about one thing -- a return man. If he thought Williams was that good a DB, would he still have his next two picks on DBs after letting a cheap starter (Herndon) leave and drafting 2 last year? God I hope not or we are worse off then I thought. I'm sure they planned/hoped that D Williams would become a pretty DB down the road. In fact, I saw a quote from Lynch after the Houston game and he said (paraphrasing) that they were told Williams was coming in to help the return game and that his play at DB was a bonus. (I can't find the quote now because DenverBroncos.com is down).

Who cares? They drafted him and he's looking good. Thats all that matters. Same for the later two picks, personally I'm very glad to have all 3 of them.

[bloodsunday]

I think you are overemphasizing the specialist part and underemphasizing that all three CB's are coming along faster than expected. None of them were drafted to be #2 CB's this year. However, they all may be better quicker than most CB's at this level.
That depends. It looks like a silly argument because it appears that we got three good players. The argument is just more about the philosophy. We didn't need 3 DBs as badly as we needed some depth at other positions, since as you pointed out our top 2 DBs are solidly in place. Since we were able to get 2 of them in the third, why not take Mathis and see if the other guy falls?

We all know that OG is the biggest conern for this team outside of QB depth wise.
Exactly, and philosophy won out over practicality. Denver is always a "system" OL they say. Just take a 6th round guy and see if he develops in 3 years says the man behind the curtain. Meanwhile your starting center appears to be in his last year and your LT is in a contract year. All the young guys are flaming out and the garbage you brought in from other teams is playing like garbage. Oh yeah and you took Foster two years ago, wrecking your "system" player credability.

WR is possibly a problem, but all the top 6 guys would beat almost any team's nickle CB regularly IMHO. Their are not that many teams with a Quality Nickle back. Certainly none in the AFCW.
Sure Watts can run by most, if not all, nickel backs, but will he catch the f!#$#@!$#$ football!!!!! Do you really want to see him in the back of the endzone with the game on the line? Not me. Probably not Jake Plummer either.

Not many in the whole NFL. Remember how desperate SF was for Middlebrooks as a Nickle back. Kelly Herndon got 3 million a year to be the Nickle for the Seahawks!
I believe Herndon and Middlebrooks are fighting for starting jobs. The expectations are a bit higher than nickel back. Which reminds me of another point, if we are so desperate for DBs, we could still have one or both of them. It would have cost us a lousy 1.3 million to keep Herndon. We gave that to a friggin' steroid using punter and drafted a punter!!! Good lord, did Shanny start taking tips from Carl Peterson....

[bloodsunday]

Great retuners also create their own opportunites. Blocking is all fundamentals, but when it breaks down you want a guy that can create and use his speed/moves to make great returns. Anyone can return a kick if he has the proper blocking and a little bit of speed.

With that said, I would think once Williams get's some more time, he'll be able to do that. I still think Adams has a leg up on him right now.
I'm not doubting that he will be a good KR, I am just pointing out that its why they drafted him and it appears he is struggling there (a bit anyway).

[bloodsunday]

Who cares? They drafted him and he's looking good. Thats all that matters. Same for the later two picks, personally I'm very glad to have all 3 of them.
Will you still be glad if Ben Hamilton or the defacto starter get hurt? How about if Rod Smith misses 6 games?

[ludo21]

I seee what you are saying bloody sunday, buti agree with footsteps, i HAS bitten us back, no playoff win in 6 years is definitely on part of our drafting.

[fdf]

Who cares? They drafted him and he's looking good. Thats all that matters. Same for the later two picks, personally I'm very glad to have all 3 of them.
These kids give us cap flexibility. If they pan out this year, we can let Walls go when he is a free agent next year. We're going to need that money to resign Warren (he's a free agent next year) and to sign two number one draft picks--one pretty high. Not sure we can do all that and sign Walls.

[bloodsunday]

I seee what you are saying bloody sunday, buti agree with footsteps, i HAS bitten us back, no playoff win in 6 years is definitely on part of our drafting.
True, and the Broncos fans that hold the team to the highest level of accountability should see that. But Shanny is able to maintain some credibility because he keeps this team above .500 and we keep churning out 1,000 yd rushers. People seem to think that if you have a 1,000 yd back, then you must have an elite OL (or at least OL play). But then why can't we convert 3rd downs? Why can't we run the ball in the redzone? People that hold this team to high standard and ask those critical questions see through this system garbage. Philly drafts an OL or DL in the top 2 rounds every year and they have been to the NFC title game 4 straight years. Seems like a good philosophy to me.

[bloodsunday]

These kids give us cap flexibility. If they pan out this year, we can let Walls go when he is a free agent next year. We're going to need that money to resign Warren (he's a free agent next year) and to sign two number one draft picks--one pretty high. Not sure we can do all that and sign Walls.
Sure. But walls just dumped Rosehaus and seems like he will be willing to give Denver a hometown discount. Besides, we still have a ton of youth at that position from last year's draft and our UDFA. AND, you need to build a team from the line out. Look no further than last season. If we could have rushed the passer our DBs would have looked much, much better.

[maven]

Great post. I expect big things from D.W.

Agree, but i'm also expecting loud yells at the tv because DW will blow some coverages or get burnt.

[Pat Bowlen]

Bloodsunday is no fun.

[bloodsunday]

Bloodsunday is no fun.
Sorry, not trying to be a buzz kill or the home of negativity. I am just very adamit about this whole OL philosophy thing. When I see how thin this position is and reflect on how hard Plummer has to work just to keep upright in a game, it really gets me going. I have read several accounts of Elway under Reeves, when he carried the offense, and he was just worn down all the time. He was constantly looked to to make plays when nothing was there and he was asked to make an elite offense out of spare parts. Hell he is compared to Montana despite having half the talent around him. Not saying Jake is John, but there is some similarities. I think Jake could be a much better QB behind our '97 and '98 OLs than this one. And I guarantee you we don't win the Super Bowl with this OL, even with all the other talent we had on that team.

In general I am growing frustrated being in this middle-of-the-pack rut and would like to see this team change it up. However, I am in now way advocating that Shanny leave, I think he's a great coach. I just wish we could make some front office shake ups to bring in a different approach.

I'll give Shanny some credit as I really, really liked the signing of Slowik and Brewster this offseason. Very underrated.

[footstepsfrom#27]

In general I am growing frustrated being in this middle-of-the-pack rut and would like to see this team change it up. However, I am in now way advocating that Shanny leave, I think he's a great coach. I just wish we could make some front office shake ups to bring in a different approach.

I'll give Shanny some credit as I really, really liked the signing of Slowik and Brewster this offseason. Very underrated.
I agree with almost everything you're saying...but do you really think Shanny can/will change? I'm a little more radical...one more year to right the ship and then the "coach for life" stuff goes out the window...

Bowlen will never do it though. :tearhair:

[Pat Bowlen]

In general I am growing frustrated being in this middle-of-the-pack rut and would like to see this team change it up. However, I am in now way advocating that Shanny leave, I think he's a great coach. I just wish we could make some front office shake ups to bring in a different approach.
I printed out your post and dropped it in the comment box. Hopefully you'll see some results soon.

[TheReverend]

Agree, but i'm also expecting loud yells at the tv because DW will blow some coverages or get burnt.

Evens out when he takes one back to the house. Safeties are there for a reason...

[watermock]

This is rediculous. Just because Adams has been more effective is circumstantial. I'm A.J. Cowling, I drove the Bronco! D. Williams is innocent! It's all circumstantial!

Honestly, I don't know what the stink is with this thread. Denver had Williams rated higher than PacMan, and it appears for good reason. DW is undersized, but packs pound for pound a great punch. If Champ says he's a playa, that's good enough for me. I remember Madden yapping his mug how Darrell Green was a bad pick too when Green got toasted as a rookie. Other than size, Williams has everything you want. Speed, INSTINCTS, hands, return ability, and TOUGH. He's returned INT's to the house, and if we learn how to get him some room on punts, he will shine at returns. I haven't seen a game yet, so I'm going off press droppings and others here, but everything I have heard is they are very pleased with him. It seemed like SF went across from him to abuse Paymah and LeSewer. He's undersized, but will matchup well against most slot recievers once Champ gets back. Most slot recievers are smaller. I don't see why your fussing. DW is handling himself well and allready accepted on the team. I was upset about his size, but apparently, he can lay wood. He doesn't have to be a 1 or 2 corner hopefully. A 3 gets more chances for the pick, and 3 WR sets are so common he will get plenty of time on the field. To step in for Champ and basically hold his own is itself a brass ring in my book. Alexander got hurt pulling a Soulja, and Sewell left. I have no doubt we will look at the cut lists for a vet that is being pushed out. Shanahan needs to be scouting this next draft hard. It's a critical draft IMO.

[Bronco9798]

This is rediculous. Just because Adams has been more effective is circumstantial. I'm A.J. Cowling, I drove the Bronco! D. Williams is innocent! It's all circumstantial!

Honestly, I don't know what the stink is with this thread. Denver had Williams rated higher than PacMan, and it appears for good reason. DW is undersized, but packs pound for pound a great punch. If Champ says he's a playa, that's good enough for me. I remember Madden yapping his mug how Darrell Green was a bad pick too when Green got toasted as a rookie. Other than size, Williams has everything you want. Speed, INSTINCTS, hands, return ability, and TOUGH. He's returned INT's to the house, and if we learn how to get him some room on punts, he will shine at returns. I haven't seen a game yet, so I'm going off press droppings and others here, but everything I have heard is they are very pleased with him. It seemed like SF went across from him to abuse Paymah and LeSewer. He's undersized, but will matchup well against most slot recievers once Champ gets back. Most slot recievers are smaller. I don't see why your fussing. DW is handling himself well and allready accepted on the team. I was upset about his size, but apparently, he can lay wood. He doesn't have to be a 1 or 2 corner hopefully. A 3 gets more chances for the pick, and 3 WR sets are so common he will get plenty of time on the field. To step in for Champ and basically hold his own is itself a brass ring in my book. Alexander got hurt pulling a Soulja, and Sewell left. I have no doubt we will look at the cut lists for a vet that is being pushed out. Shanahan needs to be scouting this next draft hard. It's a critical draft IMO.

Let's play a real game first and see how he does. Rambling on about it is uselsss until he plays a full game.

I like the kid and think he'll do fine. But, I'll wait and see what he does in a regular season game.

Expectations are nice, results are better. Hold the drama!!

[watermock]

but do you really think Shanny can/will change? I'm a little more radical...one more year to right the ship and then the "coach for life" stuff goes out the window...

And who do you propose to replace him with? Saban went to Miami, Ferentz isn't going from Iowa till his kids get thru college, Green is in Arizona on a improving squad. 25 teams would hire Shanahan in a heartbeat, especially Minnesota.

[epicSocialism4tw]

I knew that Williams was the real thing when he dominated at the senior bowl practices.

[bloodsunday]

Honestly, I don't know what the stink is with this thread. Denver had Williams rated higher than PacMan, and it appears for good reason. DW is undersized, but packs pound for pound a great punch. If Champ says he's a playa, that's good enough for me.
Mock, I'm with ya. I love Darrent and sometimes the best prayers are those that go unanswered. My point is that we have now taken 7 (counting UDFA) DBs in two years, plus the big $$$ acquisitions of Lynch and Champ. Add that to an already existing corp of Kennedy, Fergy, Herndon, Walls, Brandon, Young and Middlebrooks and that's something like 16 DBs!!!!!!! That is far too many resources on one position when you are so thin at other positions, more vital positions IMO. You think its coincidence that 3 of Philly's 4 DBs went to the Pro Bowl last year? They wreak all kinds of havoc on the QB and make those guys look good.

On top of that, I believe that they didn't really view Darrent as a CB. Rather they brought in a hired gun for ST, whick is fine as a 5 - 7 round pick not a 2nd rounder. In this case they got lucky and the kid can play. But what if he couldn't? Had they known he was this good (better than PacMan) would they have drafted two more DBs with Mathis on the board?

[Mediator12]

Mock, I'm with ya. I love Darrent and sometimes the best prayers are those that go unanswered. My point is that we have now taken 7 (counting UDFA) DBs in two years, plus the big $$$ acquisitions of Lynch and Champ. Add that to an already existing corp of Kennedy, Fergy, Herndon, Walls, Brandon, Young and Middlebrooks and that's something like 16 DBs!!!!!!! That is far too many resources on one position when you are so thin at other positions, more vital positions IMO. You think its coincidence that 3 of Philly's 4 DBs went to the Pro Bowl last year? They wreak all kinds of havoc on the QB and make those guys look good.

On top of that, I believe that they didn't really view Darrent as a CB. Rather they brought in a hired gun for ST, whick is fine as a 5 - 7 round pick not a 2nd rounder. In this case they got lucky and the kid can play. But what if he couldn't? Had they known he was this good (better than PacMan) would they have drafted two more DBs with Mathis on the board?

Yes. From what I understand Middlebrooks was well on his way out the door, Walls injury history had them really worried, Shoate's knee is screwed, Lesueur is a much better safety, Kennedy and Herndon were already GONE, They were really worried the light would not come on for Sam Brandon but thankfully it may have, and Young was an average Backup.

As for Mathis, I really have not been able to get an answer about how much they liked him. One thing is for sure though, Bobby Turner has a lot more draft clout than Rick Dennison.

[bloodsunday]

I agree with almost everything you're saying...but do you really think Shanny can/will change? I'm a little more radical...one more year to right the ship and then the "coach for life" stuff goes out the window...

Bowlen will never do it though. :tearhair:
It's got to be Shanny. Bowlen is right not to fire him: a) he'd be hired in about 30 seconds b) he's the best coach this team may ever see and c) he got us 2 trophies. Shanny has to decide that its best for the organization to either change his role or depart. Hopefully its the former, but I doubt it.

[Kaylore]

Remember to link all articles directly. (http://orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=29100) ;)

[bloodsunday]

Yes. From what I understand Middlebrooks was well on his way out the door, Walls injury history had them really worried, Shoate's knee is screwed, Lesueur is a much better safety, Kennedy and Herndon were already GONE, They were really worried the light would not come on for Sam Brandon but thankfully it may have, and Young was an average Backup.
All that is valid. My point is just that we are exhausting (hemoraging really) resources into one position. Worse, that position has less of an impact on the overall game because of their dependency on other positions and the rules. We could have kept Herndon and Middlebrooks at least if this positions was of so much concern that we needed to select 3 guys. Its not like our only option was to use our entire draft on this position.

As for Mathis, I really have not been able to get an answer about how much they liked him.
I'm not as much of a draft guru as you so maybe Mathis was or wasn't the answer. But there had to be someone available that is better than Clement, House and probably even Carlisle.

One thing is for sure though, Bobby Turner has a lot more draft clout than Rick Dennison.
Dangerous if true. The OL makes the entire team better, plain and simple.

[Atlas]

But, had they known he would be this good, could they have gone another direction with either the Foxworth or Paymah picks? I just don't see all 3 contributing this year with Walls looking solid at #2.
.

Denver got what looks to be three good CBs and you are bitching? Walls is a free agent next year and these three CBS will give Denver added security if Walls bolts somewhere else.

[Kaylore]

Denver got what looks to be three good CBs and you are b****ing? Walls is a free agent next year and these three CBS will give Denver added security if Walls bolts somewhere else.
I know. Talk about a curmudgeon. It's funny that he would be happier if Darrent didn't return kicks too, but because he does, and that's part of why we took him, Bloodsunday is mad. I never seen someone get upset a player was drafted because he can do two things. :saywhat: Bloodsunday usually has good takes, but I can't go with him on this one.

[bloodsunday]

Denver got what looks to be three good CBs and you are b****ing? Walls is a free agent next year and these three CBS will give Denver added security if Walls bolts somewhere else.
next year, next year, next year... but what about this season? Does it count? We got nothing on the OL (and we're losing players there next year as well) and our WR cupboard is hardly worth bragging about. We have added 9 players at one position in two years. We should either have the best secondary in the league or someone should be fired.

[Kaylore]

next year, next year, next year... but what about this season? Does it count? We got nothing on the OL (and we're losing players there next year as well) and our WR cupboard is hardly worth bragging about. We have added 9 players at one position in two years. We should either have the best secondary in the league or someone should be fired.

Walls is an injury case and a FA next year. Herndon was gone, Middlebrooks was gone, Roc got toasted - I think it was smart and it looks like they are turning out alright. Do you really want your replacement to be a rookie? A year under their belt learning the system before they leave is more than logical.

[bloodsunday]

I know. Talk about a curmudgeon. It's funny that he would be happier if Darrent didn't return kicks too, but because he does, and that's part of why we took him, Bloodsunday is mad. I never seen someone get upset a player was drafted because he can do two things. :saywhat: Bloodsunday usually has good takes, but I can't go with him on this one.
You gotta follow me because its tricky. I am upset because I don't think they knew he could play CB (that well) when they drafted him and selected him to play STs. Fits the the theme if you think about it -- Ernster, Sauerbum, keeping 3 kickers on the roster! Shanny sat down and said to himself, "self, the worst part of your team is special teams. Fix that and you'll be a contender once again". His entire offseason plan was based around fixing special teams and the d-line. And frankly the preseason returns look mixed to me. Our special teams has been AWFUL in preseason and the d-line perhaps slightly improved. Of the two, I consider the special teams play to be more of a pressing concern right now... I digress... My point is that I don't believe they should have taken 2 more DBs. What's more I am not sure they would have if they had known Williams was this good. Thus, yeah Williams was a good selection, but a good selection for all the wrong reasons, leading to a flawed strategy and an imbalance in the roster.

Hope that is clear. I am not at all upset about Williams the player or his diversity.

[bloodsunday]

Walls is an injury case and a FA next year. Herndon was gone, Middlebrooks was gone, Roc got toasted -
One at a time...

Walls. That's BS. Walls was hurt last year, one season, one lingering injury. He has played admirably when he's played and never shown a history of injury.

Herndon. We could have kept Herndon, a decent starter, for a lousy 1.3 million (by tendering him a first round offer). If our DBs are such a problem then that seems like a better option than 3 rookies to me.

Middlebrooks. He wore out his welcome no doubt. Nonetheless the kid was good enough to play if our secondary is so weak. Teams keep malcontent players all the time because they don't have other options.

Roc. Yeah he got toasted. All I heard this offseason was praise about Roc. With the other three above and one rookie DB he probably doesn't even factor in anyway.

I think it was smart and it looks like they are turning out alright. So far they look like good players. I have never argued that much.

Do you really want your replacement to be a rookie? A year under their belt learning the system before they leave is more than logical. Two issues here. The first is that the right player could start. Williams looks like he could give it a go. So yeah they could get a rookie next year if the need is there... which brings me to point two. You are putting the cart before the horse. Why is everyone assuming Walls is gone? He has played well for us. He just fired Drew and likes Denver. I'd say he has a good shot at coming back. We are more likely to lose Nalen and Lepsis (according to reports) than Walls.

[BroncoFanDoug]

All that is valid. My point is just that we are exhausting (hemoraging really) resources into one position. ....

Remember, I think Walls is in his contract season, and the noise is that he is going to ask a BUNCH. I am guessing that we can't afford 2 huge cb contracts - it might be that Shanny was trying to address this emerging issue, not just focusing on one area for the sake of focusing on one area.

[Mediator12]

next year, next year, next year... but what about this season? Does it count? We got nothing on the OL (and we're losing players there next year as well) and our WR cupboard is hardly worth bragging about. We have added 9 players at one position in two years. We should either have the best secondary in the league or someone should be fired.

Nine in technically Five positions Bloodsunday. Two safeties and three CB's play 50% of the downs.

As for the resources argument, Get used to the Salary Cap era. No team has a complete squad anymore and Denver was the only team in the top Ten Offensively and Defensively the last three years. ST's and TO's are the two huge areas of concern and BVP has got to develop his arm Quickly as a backup QB.

Every year teams have to avoid injuries, draft quality players, develop current players, replace coaching staff, and minimize FA defections. I think you are starting to micromanage the process too much bloodsunday. Even the PATS lose players and swing and Miss in the draft. Now Injuries and Coaching defections are going to affect them. They will deal with this better than most teams ever could, but it will bring them way more down to earth.

[Kaylore]

You gotta follow me because its tricky. I am upset because I don't think they knew he could play CB (that well) when they drafted him and selected him to play STs. Fits the the theme if you think about it -- Ernster, Sauerbum, keeping 3 kickers on the roster! Shanny sat down and said to himself, "self, the worst part of your team is special teams. Fix that and you'll be a contender once again". His entire offseason plan was based around fixing special teams and the d-line. And frankly the preseason returns look mixed to me. Our special teams has been AWFUL in preseason and the d-line perhaps slightly improved. Of the two, I consider the special teams play to be more of a pressing concern right now... I digress... My point is that I don't believe they should have taken 2 more DBs. What's more I am not sure they would have if they had known Williams was this good. Thus, yeah Williams was a good selection, but a good selection for all the wrong reasons, leading to a flawed strategy and an imbalance in the roster.

Hope that is clear. I am not at all upset about Williams the player or his diversity.
I totally disagree. There were a lot of return men on the board. I think the special teams ability of Darrent put him in the running but what sealed the deal is he is a ball-hawking playmaker and Shanny said to himself "Self, my defensive backs have stone hands. I could draft wide receiver help this year and get a retrun man out of it, but what Middlebrooks' ankle isn't looking good, Walls tends to break down a lot and Herndon is gone. Self, we need a ballhawking corner and hopefully one that can return kicks."

Everyone was worried about our secondary this off-season because it was Bailey and Lynch....and then production drops off from there. Now you are right, that we needed to bolster the D-line to make those guys look good, and lo and behold we did. But what happens when you force a bad throw and it glances off our defenders hands? Shanny probably said "enough is enough. Let's get guys out there that make plays, play physical and capitalize on opportunities."

The way it sits now. If Walls goes down, we have three guys that are realling getting good that could step in. If he leaves next season, we have three good guys with a year of experience under their belts that could step in. When Bailey is aging four years from now, We'll have three seasoned veterans who can step up.

Your concerns about the O-line are valid. I won't say I'm not worried about that. I also understand your frustration with them blowing draft picks on corners every year. But it looks they made up for it by drafting three good corners at once. If they sucked, I'd understand, but they don't. In fact they are progressing way more rapidly than rookies good, and that should please eveyone.

[bloodsunday]

Remember, I think Walls is in his contract season, and the noise is that he is going to ask a BUNCH. I am guessing that we can't afford 2 huge cb contracts - it might be that Shanny was trying to address this emerging issue, not just focusing on one area for the sake of focusing on one area.
Walls just fired Rosenhaus, a clear indication that he would like to stay in Denver. Besides, the OL is not an emerging issue? Our WR sans Rod Smith is not an emerging issue? Have you watched any preseason? The only two WR that are ever open are Rod and Watts, and Watts can't catch a cold. Lelie has caught fewer balls than Rice.

[bloodsunday]

Nine in technically Five positions Bloodsunday. Two safeties and three CB's play 50% of the downs.
But there are 5 OL as well and a long snapper.

As for the resources argument, Get used to the Salary Cap era. No team has a complete squad anymore
True. I'd like to see the strength of the team by the OL and DL, not the secondary.

and Denver was the only team in the top Ten Offensively and Defensively the last three years. ST's and TO's are the two huge areas of concern and BVP has got to develop his arm Quickly as a backup QB.
Bunk. We were top 10 by yardage, not effectiveness. We need better line play to truly be as good as those stats.

[Mediator12]

But there are 5 OL as well and a long snapper.

And all but one starter returned there. There was perceived depth with Alexander at OG and Leach is steady if anything. They lost 3 of the Five Secondary starters.

True. I'd like to see the strength of the team by the OL and DL, not the secondary.

Reasonable, but they could only manage to fix the DL this year. Any OL drafted WOULD NEVER START THIS YEAR EITHER. The Quality OG's were out of the price range.

Bunk. We were top 10 by yardage, not effectiveness. We need better line play to truly be as good as those stats.

Not bunk Defensively. They were second in the league in third down Percentage and ninth in points scored. The points had a ton to do with TO margins on both sides of the ball. This was with arguably the second or third worst DL talent in the league minus Pryce and Ellis, a pathetic SLB, and 2 of the top 4 CB's out for most of the season.

[Kaylore]

One at a time...

Walls. That's BS. Walls was hurt last year, one season, one lingering injury. He has played admirably when he's played and never shown a history of injury.

Herndon. We could have kept Herndon, a decent starter, for a lousy 1.3 million (by tendering him a first round offer). If our DBs are such a problem then that seems like a better option than 3 rookies to me.

Middlebrooks. He wore out his welcome no doubt. Nonetheless the kid was good enough to play if our secondary is so weak. Teams keep malcontent players all the time because they don't have other options.

Roc. Yeah he got toasted. All I heard this offseason was praise about Roc. With the other three above and one rookie DB he probably doesn't even factor in anyway.

So far they look like good players. I have never argued that much.

Two issues here. The first is that the right player could start. Williams looks like he could give it a go. So yeah they could get a rookie next year if the need is there... which brings me to point two. You are putting the cart before the horse. Why is everyone assuming Walls is gone? He has played well for us. He just fired Drew and likes Denver. I'd say he has a good shot at coming back. We are more likely to lose Nalen and Lepsis (according to reports) than Walls.

Every single point you made is something they didn't know at draft time. Walls still had Rosenhaus as his agent draft day. Nalen has a replacement in Ben hamilton and Hamilton has a replacement in Chris Myers. Herndon left because Walls was going to start and he didn't want to play nickle and we weren't going to pay him more-than-nickle money. Roc looked good early...until the rooks learned the playbook. Where is Roc on the depth chart now? Undrafted rookie. That's all there is to know about that.

We traded middlebrooks after watching how good the rookies are for the one D-line aquisition that is a known comodity, and quite young in Engleberger. How can you have a problem with that trade? You're complaining we have too many people in the secondary, and we trade captain disappointment for help at another possition and you're still upset? You honestly think we should have kept him around and drafted another player who might not have turned out as well as these corners? That they are starting is huge. And there isn't a big dropoff between Foxworth and Williams. Foxworth brings just as much as Williams does.

[Pat Bowlen]

My point is that I don't believe they should have taken 2 more DBs. What's more I am not sure they would have if they had known Williams was this good. Thus, yeah Williams was a good selection, but a good selection for all the wrong reasons, leading to a flawed strategy and an imbalance in the roster.
You know what they say when you assume...... right?

[TheReverend]

My point is that I don't believe they should have taken 2 more DBs. What's more I am not sure they would have if they had known Williams was this good. Thus, yeah Williams was a good selection, but a good selection for all the wrong reasons, leading to a flawed strategy and an imbalance in the roster.

It's called injury depth. Remember last year?

Besides... 3 corners in, 3 corners out (Kelly, Willie and MAYBE soon: Tha Roc)

[DivineLegion]

D-Williams looks realy small on the field to me...like Q small Whats he gonna do if we play the seahawks who have an average hieght of 6-4 at WR one of thier WRs is 6-7 D Williams is almost a foot shorter...

[Kaylore]

D-Williams looks realy small on the field to me...like Q small Whats he gonna do if we play the seahawks who have an average hieght of 6-4 at WR one of thier WRs is 6-7 D Williams is almost a foot shorter...
Well they can't catch anyway, so we'll just play a lot of loose zone and go for interceptions. ;D

[Ballhawk]

I do not know if anyone remembers, but Shanny had no plan to draft three CBs. He liked Williams and Paymah, two very different types of CBs, one a quick ballhawking guy and the other a good press cover guy. When Shanny went to pick with his first comp pick he took Foxworh because he couldn't believe he was still on the board. When you see a player rated high on your board and he is sitting there almost as a 2nd day pick I think you have to draft him, and the way it has looked so far he was well worth the pick.

[bloodsunday]

I totally disagree. There were a lot of return men on the board. I think the special teams ability of Darrent put him in the running but what sealed the deal is he is a ball-hawking playmaker and Shanny said to himself "Self, my defensive backs have stone hands. I could draft wide receiver help this year and get a retrun man out of it, but what Middlebrooks' ankle isn't looking good, Walls tends to break down a lot and Herndon is gone. Self, we need a ballhawking corner and hopefully one that can return kicks."
Just different perspectives I guess. I don't think situation is as bad as people make it. Walls is not injury prone. He had a tough year; there is a difference. Herndon is only gone because we let him go by tendering him a UFA offer. Middlebrooks didn't have to go either. All 3 of those guys are as good (right now) as the three rookie CBs.

Everyone was worried about our secondary this off-season because it was Bailey and Lynch....and then production drops off from there.
I disagree. Walls is effective and so is Fergy. I think we have an above average secondary at worst.

Now you are right, that we needed to bolster the D-line to make those guys look good, and lo and behold we did.
All the fixes are short term and its too early to tell if they fixed anything. However, I am optimistic about this group. I will say that if you consider Walls injury prone, then you have to consider Trevor as well.

The way it sits now. If Walls goes down, we have three guys that are realling getting good that could step in. If he leaves next season, we have three good guys with a year of experience under their belts that could step in. When Bailey is aging four years from now, We'll have three seasoned veterans who can step up.
True. But what if Walls doesn't leave (ala Al Wilson and Terry Pierce)? What if Hamilton or Coop goes down?

As I stated earlier, and footstepsfrom#27 asserted for me, this argument is about philosophy not individual players. I believe we have spent too much time investing in "playmakers" and skill positions (especially DB) when the answers to our problems are in the trenches. If you and I have a different philosopy, so be it.

[bloodsunday]

Not bunk Defensively. They were second in the league in third down Percentage and ninth in points scored. The points had a ton to do with TO margins on both sides of the ball. This was with arguably the second or third worst DL talent in the league minus Pryce and Ellis, a pathetic SLB, and 2 of the top 4 CB's out for most of the season.
The only guy they had to lose was Kennedy; he was too expensive for what he provided. They could have brought back Herndon and Middlebrooks for reasonable value. (I am repeating myself). The only reason those guys had to go is because Shanny (and perhaps Sundquist) said so.

Your points about the defense are good. However, they are still in need of DL help more than secondary.

[TheReverend]

The only guy they had to lose was Kennedy; he was too expensive for what he provided. They could have brought back Herndon and Middlebrooks for reasonable value. (I am repeating myself). The only reason those guys had to go is because Shanny (and perhaps Sundquist) said so.

Your points about the defense are good. However, they are still in need of DL help more than secondary.

Kelly wouldve cost us Trevor.

[bloodsunday]

Every single point you made is something they didn't know at draft time. Walls still had Rosenhaus as his agent draft day. Nalen has a replacement in Ben hamilton and Hamilton has a replacement in Chris Myers. Herndon left because Walls was going to start and he didn't want to play nickle and we weren't going to pay him more-than-nickle money. Roc looked good early...until the rooks learned the playbook. Where is Roc on the depth chart now? Undrafted rookie. That's all there is to know about that.

We traded middlebrooks after watching how good the rookies are for the one D-line aquisition that is a known comodity, and quite young in Engleberger. How can you have a problem with that trade? You're complaining we have too many people in the secondary, and we trade captain disappointment for help at another possition and you're still upset? You honestly think we should have kept him around and drafted another player who might not have turned out as well as these corners? That they are starting is huge. And there isn't a big dropoff between Foxworth and Williams. Foxworth brings just as much as Williams does.
Your either totally missing what I am saying or mixing it.

One last time....

IF they thought our secondary was such a mess, they could have kept Herndon and Middlebrooks. Period. If they gave Herndon 1.3 million they would have had 1st round compensation if he left. Middlebrooks was under contract and cheap. Thus, the choose to go a different direction, they weren't forced to draft 3 DBs. I would have been fine with 2 draft picks (with Williams as a returner as well) and trading Middlebrooks. Then you keep Herndon and you have a very good secondary.

The OL scenario you outlined is okay except for Lepsis' contract and the obvious weak link in Carlisle. If Meyers was ready to step in and play today I would have a lot less to say on this issue. IMO this OL, while it provided a 1,000 yd rusher and is returning 4/5 starters, is average at best. They are average pass blocking and horrible when they need to push people around. If I could have one dominant unit on my football team, I would take OL every time. Secondary would be at best 3rd on my list.

[bloodsunday]

Kelly wouldve cost us Trevor.
1.3 million? I doubt it. We gave Sauerbraun more than a million and we drafted a punter. We are going to keep 3 kickers on our roster because our expensive place kicker can't kick the ball off. There were ways to find 1.3 million. Plenty of them.

[bloodsunday]

It's called injury depth. Remember last year?

Besides... 3 corners in, 3 corners out (Kelly, Willie and MAYBE soon: Tha Roc)
So we should only have injury depth in the secondary? We don't have any at WR, QB or OL, but that's okay? mediator was right, its about how you allocate your resources. Denver has choosen to allocate them into skilled positions (ST specialists, DBs, and LBs) and I believe that is flawed.

[bloodsunday]

You know what they say when you assume...... right?
True. Just like everyone assumes Walls will get injured. Everyone assumed Pryce was a goner. Everyone assumes Nalen and Lepsis are gone after this year. Al Wilson was assumed to be leaving via FA and forcing us to pick Pierce.

I want Denver to control what they can. They could have controlled the secondary by tendering Herndon and drafting one or two DBs. Case closed. They could have controlled the OL depth by taking at least one prospect that is not a project. They could have controlled the WR depth by drafting or trading for any number of players.

Instead, we have knee-jerk reacted to our weaknesses -- DL, ST, and DB depth.

[Kaylore]

My problem with what you are saying, and Pat already pointed this out, is you are assuming you know what Shanahan was thinking when he drafted these guys and are so sure of you it, you are already emotionally invested in it. I think that's reaching.

[TheReverend]

So we should only have injury depth in the secondary? We don't have any at WR, QB or OL, but that's okay? mediator was right, its about how you allocate your resources. Denver has choosen to allocate them into skilled positions (ST specialists, DBs, and LBs) and I believe that is flawed.

Same QB depth from last season, only with another year in the system to mature as a QB... so better depth. I actually think we have some pretty good OL depth with Spikes, Clement, Myers, Clabo, etc. Right now were all arguing about who were going to HAVE to cut at WR (Adams, Devoe or Luke make pretty damn good 5th WRs).

[Ballhawk]

I think next years draft will be one focused on OL and DL (depending on how things go with Davis, Brown and Warren all three may be pricey next year). Good news is that by all indications, next years class is deep in both these areas.

[DivineLegion]

True. Just like everyone assumes Walls will get injured. Everyone assumed Pryce was a goner. Everyone assumes Nalen and Lepsis are gone after this year. Al Wilson was assumed to be leaving via FA and forcing us to pick Pierce.

I want Denver to control what they can. They could have controlled the secondary by tendering Herndon and drafting one or two DBs. Case closed. They could have controlled the OL depth by taking at least one prospect that is not a project. They could have controlled the WR depth by drafting or trading for any number of players.

Instead, we have knee-jerk reacted to our weaknesses -- DL, ST, and DB depth.

Look at where all of our depth is...on our Defense...whats the stronges point on this team? Thats right the Defense. The secondary having a lack of depth is what lost us two playoff games. Look at how deep we are at LB CB and on the D-Line we only realy lack depth at Saftey but thats because we just had two freaking guys go down with injurys.

[TheReverend]

1.3 million? I doubt it. We gave Sauerbraun more than a million and we drafted a punter. We are going to keep 3 kickers on our roster because our expensive place kicker can't kick the ball off. There were ways to find 1.3 million. Plenty of them.

1.3 million to slap a high tender on him, you mean. Kelly's been good to us, no need to hold him back from a long term contract if we cant afford it.

[SimonFletcherRules!]

I agree with Denver's selection of 3 corners in the draft. That was a smart idea born from twice getting thrashed out of the playoffs by the Colts and the new receiver friendly NFL bull**** rules. But I really really think Clarett was a mistake. Not saying he isn't a good player or has potential. Just saying we had much, much more pressing needs, like WR or OL. Shanny just couldn't help himself.

[TheReverend]

I agree with Denver's selection of 3 corners in the draft. That was a smart idea born from twice getting thrashed out of the playoffs by the Colts and the new receiver friendly NFL bull**** rules. But I really really think Clarett was a mistake. Not saying he isn't a good player or has potential. Just saying we had much, much more pressing needs, like WR or OL. Shanny just couldn't help himself.

More of a "why not" situation...

[SimonFletcherRules!]

More of a "why not" situation...
yeah, but the problem was made worse when we signed Dayne. Now we have a logjam of veteran, good runners and the rookie doesn't have a chance and we may have to subsequently release him the way things are turning out.
wasted pick

[bloodsunday]

My problem with what you are saying, and Pat already pointed this out, is you are assuming you know what Shanahan was thinking when he drafted these guys and are so sure of you it, you are already emotionally invested in it. I think that's reaching.
I am not assuming.. I am reading between the lines and granted that is prone to error. But I am not the only one that makes assumptions about the arguments he makes on this board. Otherwise the only people that could post anything of substance are those that sit with in ear shot of Shanny all day.

The only thing I am emotionally invested (sadly) in is this team doing well. It's my belief that they cannot do well with a lopsided roster. Maybe I am wrong. Check that... I hope I am wrong and eating crow in 5 months.

[bloodsunday]

1.3 million to slap a high tender on him, you mean. Kelly's been good to us, no need to hold him back from a long term contract if we cant afford it.
We're not in the business of making Kelley Herndon happy. If it was a better business move (as perceived by the FO) to keep him, they would have. They clearly think this was the right way to go and I clearly disagree. The proof is in the pudding and the pudding will be done in January.

[TheReverend]

yeah, but the problem was made worse when we signed Dayne. Now we have a logjam of veteran, good runners and the rookie doesn't have a chance and we may have to subsequently release him the way things are turning out.
wasted pick

Considering MA doubles as a backup FB we can carry 4 RBs. Just leaves Griffin assed out.

[bloodsunday]

I agree with Denver's selection of 3 corners in the draft. That was a smart idea born from twice getting thrashed out of the playoffs by the Colts and the new receiver friendly NFL bull**** rules. But I really really think Clarett was a mistake. Not saying he isn't a good player or has potential. Just saying we had much, much more pressing needs, like WR or OL. Shanny just couldn't help himself.
I just think that is so BS. The rules are rigged against a DB, so let's get more of them? Why not get stud D-lineman that can pressure the QB instead? It's backwards logic (if you ask me), but appears to be consistent with what is happening at Dove Valley. Pardon me for being the boring one here... but the Pats and Steelers both made due with much less than us in the secondary last year because they pressure the QB.

[TheReverend]

I just think that is so BS. The rules are rigged against a DB, so let's get more of them? Why not get stud D-lineman that can pressure the QB instead? It's backwards logic (if you ask me), but appears to be consistent with what is happening at Dove Valley. Pardon me for being the boring one here... but the Pats and Steelers both made due with much less than us in the secondary last year because they pressure the QB.

We did get stud D-linemen

[SimonFletcherRules!]

I just think that is so BS. The rules are rigged against a DB, so let's get more of them? Why not get stud D-lineman that can pressure the QB instead? It's backwards logic (if you ask me), but appears to be consistent with what is happening at Dove Valley. Pardon me for being the boring one here... but the Pats and Steelers both made due with much less than us in the secondary last year because they pressure the QB.
BS? Well, let's see... we lost our nickel back, and the candidate at the time to replace was Roc Alexander; aka toast. I would say corner was a top priority, especially one that was the best kick returner in the nation. Did you not think the aquisition of a thousand D-lineman and 2 former #1 draft picks with tremendous potential in Warren and Brown along with a healthy Pryce enough reason to focus on other positions in the draft? We strike out al the time drafting D-lineman, why not pick up some decent guys you can start immediately in the FA market?

[Mediator12]

We did get stud D-linemen

And the only real one in this draft is playing LB for the Cowboys: Demarcus Ware

[bloodsunday]

We did get stud D-linemen
Really? Who are they because I haven't seen them. The only good one we got is injured. The others are okay and all are short term fixes. I am talking about our decisions over the span of several years (at least the last two). We could go back as far as Deltha and Willie, but I'll save us all the misery up drudging those conversations up.

[bloodsunday]

BS? Well, let's see... we lost our nickel back, and the candidate at the time to replace was Roc Alexander; aka toast. I would say corner was a top priority, especially one that was the best kick returner in the nation. Did you not think the aquisition of a thousand D-lineman and 2 former #1 draft picks with tremendous potential in Warren and Brown along with a healthy Pryce enough reason to focus on other positions in the draft? We strike out al the time drafting D-lineman, why not pick up some decent guys you can start immediately in the FA market?
Man you haven't been following me at all. I am advocating that we use more resources on OL. I have also sufficiently covered the options we had to keep Herndon and other viable DBs. You don't need 9 of them in two years to play 5 positions unless you are screwing up somewhere.

[BroncoFanDoug]

Walls just fired Rosenhaus, a clear indication that he would like to stay in Denver. Besides, the OL is not an emerging issue? Our WR sans Rod Smith is not an emerging issue? Have you watched any preseason? The only two WR that are ever open are Rod and Watts, and Watts can't catch a cold. Lelie has caught fewer balls than Rice.

Even if Walls wants to stay, he is going to command too much elsewhere to turn down or for us to want to match - I think corners are #2 now in pay? We will more cost effectively serve the team with the new batch of rooks (IMO!)

I absolutely agree we have many question marks at wide (and OL too), but some reasons for hope. I am not nearly as down on Lelie as you are - he has improved every year and most indications are that he has continued his progress. I also think our opps of finding a reasonably priced FA in OL that happens to fit out style is much better than cost effectively filling corner.

In the era of salary cap, you are going to roll the dice somewhere.

Interesting conversation.

[fontaine]

Man you haven't been following me at all. I am advocating that we use more resources on OL.

Yes, the OL needs to be restocked but the Broncos did just that in the offseason. They brought in Spikes, Meyers, Clement. Any way you cut it a rookie OL, no matter how talented was a longshot to start immediately. Although I do agree that they could have drafted a WR/OL or someone else instead of Clarett.

It would have been great to have an elite OL last year, but the OL does not score TDs. That's the job of Lelie/Putz/Droughns etc. You could have have Orlando Pace, Mike Wahle last year but that wouldn't have made Lelie/Putz/Droughns get it done in the red zone.

AND IT WILL BE THE SAME THIS YEAR. We could have signed the cream of crop at OL through the draft/free agency but it won't mean a thing if Lelie/Putz/Bell/Anderson fail in the red zone. The OL already can do the job they're supposed to do quite well which is march up and down the field, get us to the red zone and protect Plummer. And I wish people would stop attributing it to Plummer's mobility. Yes, it helps but Plummer had argueably better mobility when he was younger and getting sacked 40, 50, 30 times a season before he came to Denver.

[watermock]

The weatherman on Fox and Friends just called Democrats cats. I am insulted. They are more like cockroaches.

[fontaine]

Interesting:

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/ramblings.php?p=2809&cat=5

Detroit
The left side of the Lions’ line has looked lousy so far. Tackle Jeff Backus is getting beaten in pass protection, and newly acquired guard Rick DeMulling has struggled with his run-blocking.

Denver
The Broncos’ offensive line looked as good as ever on their impressive opening drive. Their technique is flawless and they move with a precision that few other offensive lines can match. This unit is even making Ron Dayne look good.

And finally some news from the gutter:

Washington
QB Patrick Ramsey started his evening with a 25-yard touchdown pass to James Thrash that was threaded between two Bengals defenders. That was the bright spot of the evening for Ramsey because after that, things went south quickly. He started the second quarter with an interception on a badly underthrown ball to Thrash in the end zone. On the very next drive Ramsey was intercepted again when he overthrew Santana Moss by roughly 50 feet. He finished nine-of-18 for 190 yards. The current backup, Mark Brunell, worked the entire second half and finished 10-of-16 for 122 yards. Ramsey’s mixed performance officially kicks off the 2005 Redskins’ quarterback controversy.

WR David Patten had three nice catches for 109 yards, and even though Moss is listed as the number one receiver, Ramsey seems more comfortable throwing to Patten in critical situations.

On defense, Washington continuely pressured the quarterback with varying degrees of success. First-round pick CB Carlos Rogers intercepted QB Carson Palmer midway through the first quarter, but was later burned on two consecutive fly patterns. On the first play, T.J. Houshmandzadeh beat Rogers deep but dropped a well-thrown Palmer pass that would have resulted in a touchdown. On the very next play, Rogers, again in single coverage, was beaten on the very same play, this time by Kelley Washington.

The 2005 Redskins look an awful lot like the 2004 Redskins: an uneven offense that now employs the shotgun, bolstered by a stout defense.

[bloodsunday]

Even if Walls wants to stay, he is going to command too much elsewhere to turn down or for us to want to match - I think corners are #2 now in pay? We will more cost effectively serve the team with the new batch of rooks (IMO!)
Denver can keep him if they want to, I believe. Now that we have 3 rookie corners it could be that he is expendable. But it didn't have to be that way, as many are suggesting.

I am not nearly as down on Lelie as you are - he has improved every year and most indications are that he has continued his progress.
I am not down on Lelie, he is what he is -- a downfield WR. Lelie has NEVER shown any consistency in the short and intermediate passing game. Our offense is not a downfield offense (ala Oakland) and so Lelie's value to this team is just average. He is a good compliment to Rod, but loses value in most other contexts. If he improves his short and intermediate game then that will change. The problem is that if Rod goes down, we have no reliable possession type receiver. Rice is too old to play that primary role, although that is the guy that would be asked to do so. I also don't think that Watts or Lelie is strong enough to play that role and consistently play against tough coverages in small spaces.

I also think our opps of finding a reasonably priced FA in OL that happens to fit out style is much better than cost effectively filling corner.
This is a system mentality. Our OL system is starting to show cracks, IMO.

In the era of salary cap, you are going to roll the dice somewhere.
Agreed. I say roll the dice in the secondary not the OL. That's been my argument all along, I think the philosophy of how this team is being built is wrong.

[-Slap-]

If Williams was 6-0, he would have been a high 1st rounder. Give the Broncos credit for drafting a Darrell Green clone with a low 2nd round choice (Green was a 1st rounder in '83) and get a returner to boot.
We had a deal worked out with Washington for their pick in the first round of that draft. They said they were all set to pull the trigger on the deal unless the player they wanted was still on the board. Unfortunately the player they wanted was Darrell Green, who was the player we coveted as well. We came that close to landing two Hall of Famers, plus Karl Mecklenburg in that draft.

[bloodsunday]

Yes, the OL needs to be restocked but the Broncos did just that in the offseason. They brought in Spikes, Meyers, Clement. Any way you cut it a rookie OL, no matter how talented was a longshot to start immediately. Although I do agree that they could have drafted a WR/OL or someone else instead of Clarett.
They brought in players no doubt, but they were all someone else's garbage, except Meyers. Meyers was thought to be a project from day 1. They needed to bring in some guys that could actually push and compete for starting roles, primarily at the guard position.

It would have been great to have an elite OL last year, but the OL does not score TDs. That's the job of Lelie/Putz/Droughns etc. You could have have Orlando Pace, Mike Wahle last year but that wouldn't have made Lelie/Putz/Droughns get it done in the red zone. AND IT WILL BE THE SAME THIS YEAR. We could have signed the cream of crop at OL through the draft/free agency but it won't mean a thing if Lelie/Putz/Bell/Anderson fail in the red zone.
Here is another example of the system mentality. I happen to disagree. A good OL can make average skill position players look good instead of the otherway around. Our OL needs to improve its blocking in the redzone and in known passing situations. To do that I believe we need start using resources on those positions instead of doing them as an afterthought like we did this year.

The OL already can do the job they're supposed to do quite well which is march up and down the field, get us to the red zone and protect Plummer. And I wish people would stop attributing it to Plummer's mobility. Yes, it helps but Plummer had argueably better mobility when he was younger and getting sacked 40, 50, 30 times a season before he came to Denver.
Fontaine, I respect your views on this board, but I wholeheartedly disagree with this post. Griese was sacked 30+ times his last season in Denver. There is a direct correlation between Plummer's mobility and the drop in sacks -- Shanny has even acknowledged so. Shanny knows that he has an inexpensive system OL and that it will require a mobile QB to make it work. The mobile QB also helps to slow down pressure because of the threat of a role out. Although we are starting to see teams figure out how to stop that (that weakside DE needs incredible discipline).

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/broncos/article/0,1299,DRMN_17_4022704,00.html

About halfway down:

"When you look at what happened last year, we only gave up 15 sacks on offense," Shanahan said. "A lot of that is because of the way our (offensive) line played and a lot of that is because of what Jake can do. . . . Any time you can move around and avoid some of those hits, it's going to help an offense."

[fontaine]

Fontaine, I respect your views on this board, but I wholeheartedly disagree with this post. Griese was sacked 30+ times his last season in Denver. There is a direct correlation between Plummer's mobility and the drop in sacks -- Shanny has even acknowledged so. Shanny knows that he has an inexpensive system OL and that it will require a mobile QB to make it work. The mobile QB also helps to slow down pressure because of the threat of a role out. Although we are starting to see teams figure out how to stop that (that weakside DE needs incredible discipline).


I see where you're coming from, and yes we need to find a better RG sooner or later. But we didn't have these red zone issues when Sharpe/Portis were racking up the TDs.

The OL can only get us to the red zone, they can't score TDs for us. The biggest improvement from this offense won't come from the RG position but from players like Watts hanging onto TD passes, Lelie getting tougher in the red zone, our TEs working better to score and having RBs that can punch it in.

I feel ok about our OL, especially about the part where they are running more screens which plays to the strength of a mobile OL. If defenses stack the box and try of burst through the interior then there are ways to make them pay.

[bloodsunday]

I see where you're coming from, and yes we need to find a better RG sooner or later. But we didn't have these red zone issues when Sharpe/Portis were racking up the TDs.
With Portis, yes. We still had difficulty running the ball in the redzone, I think partly because of Portis' running style. I think my next comment will elaborate on this a bit more...

The OL can only get us to the red zone, they can't score TDs for us. The biggest improvement from this offense won't come from the RG position but from players like Watts hanging onto TD passes, Lelie getting tougher in the red zone, our TEs working better to score and having RBs that can punch it in.
I agree with what you are saying in terms of the passing game and the redzone. In the run game we need to be able to blow people off the ball to be effective in the redzone (and third down) and we can't do it anymore. The interior of the line is too soft. Look at the teams we typically struggle against -- Baltimore is a great example (so is Miami and San Diego). They have physical DL that give us fits.

I feel ok about our OL, especially about the part where they are running more screens which plays to the strength of a mobile OL. If defenses stack the box and try of burst through the interior then there are ways to make them pay.
There are two points here:
The first point is that I feel okay with OL in the areas you pointed out as well. Those are areas where we can utilize a light, mobile OL to our advantage. The problem is that when a team gets us into a known passing situation or a short yardage situation. Our mobile OL doesn't do well in those siutations.

The second point I'd like to make is just that I am trying to rewind and suggest what I would have done on draft day. I have suggested a very feasible plan that would have accomplished both tasks. Everyone likes the new DBs and therefore can't understand my criticism. I think our OL will be pretty good (except the situations I suggested above) unless we have injuries or FA defections next season. BUT, that is the same argument everyone else is making about the DBs. Doubters say: "What if Walls gets Hurt?" "What if Walls leaves?" I can turn those same questions around and say "what if Hamilton gets hurt?" "What if Nalen is no longer a Broncos next season?" Add to that the fact that I consider an OL more pivotal to the overall success of a team than the secondary and I would have used at least some resources on the position.

In truth our team is pretty good top to bottom IF there are no injuries. I understand that you can't have the prefect roster in the FA Era, but I would choose different areas of the roster to be thin. The strenght of the team has shifted from the trenches to skill positions and I think that is the wrong way to build a team.

If you compare the Chiefs offensive skill positions to our (across the board) does anyone think they are significantly better than us? I don't. They get have a better offense than us because of their OL play, not because of Eddie Kennison or Trent Green.

For the record I think our draft could (should) have been:
1 - Traded to Redskins
2 - Darrent Williams (I love this kid)
3 - Evan Mathis
3 - Dominique Foxworth
3 - Fred Gibson
(Maybe try to get back into the 4th and get Paymah or Mo)

All those guys were available and all those guys would have been valuable to this team. I know Shanny gave his usual business: "There wasn't a WR that could make this roster". BS. Gibson could have beat out Triandos Luke, Charlie Adams. He might even be better than Rice and/or Watts the way they are playing. We still get two solid young CBs a return man and a starting caliber G.

[TheReverend]

Hindsight is 20/20... Paymah was rated higher on our board, we didnt know hed get outperformed in camp/preseason.

[Atlas]

My point is that I don't believe they should have taken 2 more DBs. What's more I am not sure they would have if they had known Williams was this good. Thus, yeah Williams was a good selection, but a good selection for all the wrong reasons, leading to a flawed strategy and an imbalance in the roster.
.

Which DB wouldn't you have taken?? I believe Shanny knew what he was looking for in a CB and drafted 3 of them hoping to get a couple right. He didn't know which one of them would be good. It looks like Denver hit on all three of them that's pretty good don't you think?? Any Olineman drafted this year in the 3rd round wouldn't have helped anyway. Rookie Olineman NEVER play and if they do than that's bad news. Nalen didn't play as a rookie neither did Neil, Foster, Carlise, Lepsis.. None of them. Why would you think drafting a G in the 3rd round would have helped Denver one bit this year???

[watermock]

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/image.php?u=3302&dateline=1124485415

Toddlers shouldn't try to give analysis.

We run a tight ship here buddy, climb the crows nest.

Hey, even a venemous snake has a soft spot.

He can man the oars.

[elwaygay]

Which DB wouldn't you have taken?? I believe Shanny knew what he was looking for in a CB and drafted 3 of them hoping to get a couple right. He didn't know which one of them would be good. It looks like Denver hit on all three of them that's pretty good don't you think?? Any Olineman drafted this year in the 3rd round wouldn't have helped anyway. Rookie Olineman NEVER play and if they do than that's bad news. Nalen didn't play as a rookie neither did Neil, Foster, Carlise, Lepsis.. None of them. Why would you think drafting a G in the 3rd round would have helped Denver one bit this year??? It wouldn't have... not sure anything will. Cleveland's Defense sure as hell wont, either. Looking at 0-4 postseason since Elway, if we get there. Probably get crushed by the Raiders, though.

[bloodsunday]

Which DB wouldn't you have taken??
Atlas, my suggestion is 2 posts above yours. It is a very realistic proposition.

I believe Shanny knew what he was looking for in a CB and drafted 3 of them hoping to get a couple right. He didn't know which one of them would be good.
I hope your wrong about just throwing darts and hoping you hit. This team had options to bolster the secondary (also previously listed in this post) that didn't include spending every draft resource you had on a DB. If that's really what happened then I have no confidence in their draft room.

It looks like Denver hit on all three of them that's pretty good don't you think??
Never argued that, but remember its early. We heard good things about Roc Alexander and Jeff Shoate last preseason as well. What I am arguing is that we cannot continue to poor resources into skilled positions and think we can win a SuperBowl with a "system" offensive line. We are ultra thin at that position and we have some unknowns about players returning next year.

Any Olineman drafted this year in the 3rd round wouldn't have helped anyway. Rookie Olineman NEVER play and if they do than that's bad news.
That's not a rule, but happens to be the case. We typically draft lineman that are projects: Lepsis was a TE, Foster was recovering from injury, Carlisle and Clabo were late draft picks. Not to mention all of them had quality starters in front of them. This whole "system" mentality is stupid. Just because a rookie lineman has never played before, does not proclude it from happening. It also doesn't mean that a rookie couldn't help this squad by adding depth and special teams.

Nalen didn't play as a rookie neither did Neil, Foster, Carlise, Lepsis.. None of them. Why would you think drafting a G in the 3rd round would have helped Denver one bit this year???
Depth. We have nothing. We don't even have a guy that can push Carlisle. (repeating myself again). Mathis is challenging for a starting spot in Carolina so I am confident he could have been a solid backup here and maybe challenged for playingtime if Carlisle faultered into the season.

[bloodsunday]

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/image.php?u=3302&dateline=1124485415

Toddlers shouldn't try to give analysis.

We run a tight ship here buddy, climb the crows nest.

Hey, even a venemous snake has a soft spot.

He can man the oars.
A) don't rip on my Avatar. All I see on this board is half-naked women -- are they qualified to give analysis?

B) There's no reason for me to climb the crow's nest. I have an opinion, an opinion that can only be proved right or wrong over time. I distinctly remember hearing good things about Shoate and Alexander last preseason as well, so these guys aren't locks to make it in this league.

C) If some of you would stop and consider the argument -- should Denver be using all their draft resources on specialists? -- then you might have a different opinion. Footsteps#27 is the only one that understands where I am coming from. I have never suggested that I don't like these 3 as players, rather I am saying we should balanced out our draft a bit. While I pray every day it doesn't happen, if Carlisle or Hamilton goes down we are all going to learn the hard way what it is that I am suggesting.

[fontaine]

I hope your wrong about just throwing darts and hoping you hit. This team had options to bolster the secondary (also previously listed in this post) that didn't include spending every draft resource you had on a DB. If that's really what happened then I have no confidence in their draft room.


Well, we didn't have anybody behind Walls and Champ since Herndon was gone and Middlebrooks couldn't stay healthy. In that situation, at least two CBs were required. Add the fact that this draft was very deep in CB then it makes sense.

I see your point that we shouldn't have to pool so many resources in backup CBs but I think drafting three CBs was born out of the necessity of losing herndon/walls AND not having much confidence in Leseur and Shoate. If anything, this draft highlighted the failure of last year's draft picks at CB.

Never argued that, but remember its early. We heard good things about Roc Alexander and Jeff Shoate last preseason as well. What I am arguing is that we cannot continue to poor resources into skilled positions and think we can win a SuperBowl with a "system" offensive line. We are ultra thin at that position and we have some unknowns about players returning next year.

I don't know about that. The Pats OL was patched up with a rookie and some no name players that were plugged in last year. Of course having a great QB like Brady that can quickly release the ball helps a lot.

BloodSunday, I think the general disagreement I have with you is that I don't believe any promising rookie or FA can just come in and contribute to our OL. I firmly believe that our OL is predicated around having five guys that can run block in sync. That takes years of practice and learning. That's something I just can't see a new guy picking up immediately.

[bloodsunday]

Well, we didn't have anybody behind Walls and Champ since Herndon was gone and Middlebrooks couldn't stay healthy. In that situation, at least two CBs were required. Add the fact that this draft was very deep in CB then it makes sense. I see your point that we shouldn't have to pool so many resources in backup CBs but I think drafting three CBs was born out of the necessity of losing herndon/walls AND not having much confidence in Leseur and Shoate.
For the 100th time --- we didn't have to lose Herndon or Middlebrooks. You guys act like that was a matter of fact. Denver chose to lose both of them. It's real simple -- give Herndon a 1.3 tender and he's a Broncos this season. Then you only need 1, 2 max, DBs in the draft. Yes Middlebrooks is injury prone, but he still could have helped this club. He has talent and was a special teams ace. The FO chose to lose those players so this draft was not born out of necessity, it was born out of choice.

If anything, this draft highlighted the failure of last year's draft picks at CB.
I agree 100% on that. Hopefully we aren't admitting that again next year.

I don't know about that. The Pats OL was patched up with a rookie and some no name players that were plugged in last year. Of course having a great QB like Brady that can quickly release the ball helps a lot.
I am talking about a general philosophy and team built to win consistently. The Pats have had a stable OL during their run. Sure they have a weakspot here or there, but on the whole its a good OL (and getting better). They used a #1 pick on a guard by the way.

BloodSunday, I think the general disagreement I have with you is that I don't believe any promising rookie or FA can just come in and contribute to our OL. I firmly believe that our OL is predicated around having five guys that can run block in sync. That takes years of practice and learning. That's something I just can't see a new guy picking up immediately.
That is a gross generalization. That's a system mentality. A quality player is a quality player. (That's the defense many have used about getting 3 CBs, they were rated high on "our board"). Even if a rookie or FA OL couldn't come in and start, he could come in and contribute. Today, I am most concerned about our depth. We have no one that can back up Hamilton and Carlisle. We could also use a good rookie for special teams. My suggestion was to take 2 DBs and Mathis. Mathis might start for the Panthers, so he could most certainly push Carlisle at least a bit.

[fontaine]

That is a gross generalization. That's a system mentality. A quality player is a quality player. (That's the defense many have used about getting 3 CBs, they were rated high on "our board"). Even if a rookie or FA OL couldn't come in and start, he could come in and contribute. Today, I am most concerned about our depth. We have no one that can back up Hamilton and Carlisle. We could also use a good rookie for special teams. My suggestion was to take 2 DBs and Mathis. Mathis might start for the Panthers, so he could most certainly push Carlisle at least a bit.

Well, I really wanted them to draft a Guard as well in the first day. My choice was Baas, but I can't talk because he's out indefinitely with a torn hammy.

:-X

[bloodsunday]

Well, I really wanted them to draft a Guard as well in the first day. My choice was Baas, but I can't talk because he's out indefinitely with a torn hammy.

:-X
Yeah its easy for me to point to Mathis because A) he's doing well and B) he was available when we drafted. Nonetheless, I just see how thin we are there and am freaked out. I firmly believe that OL is one of the most important positions on a football team and I think this whole "system" has run its course. It's high time we start making this position a priority again. That's all. I like the 3 rookie CBs (especially Williams) and I hope they do well. I just feel we had better options to bolster the secondary with our existing resources (see Herndon) and then we could have addressed other areas of the roster (other FA or draft choice). I realize that its unlikely a rookie could start for us day 1, but depth and a guy that gives us options next offseason would okay as well.

This team is going to be in big, big trouble if we suffer any injuries at OL, QB or WR.

[Mediator12]

Bloodsunday, I completely understand where you are coming from. I think you have stated your argument concisely and clearly.

What I do not agree with is your reasoning on the OL being able to contribute right away and the fact that this team should be built from the OL and DL out. I seriously think you draft guys who can help your team in the system implemented. NO position is more important than the other. The OL system is proven to work in DEN whether you like the style of it or not.

The RED Zone problems MAY or MAY NOT be resolved with Road graders in the interior of the line. The Chiefs score the majority of their Red Zone rushing touchdowns outside of two yards WITH SWEEPS. Their Mobility and Familiarity is their best Asset NOT SIZE.

As for the resources argument, there are only limited resources available. This year they spent on LB, DL, and TE. They used the draft to Fill holes in a secondary built to play Zone coverage instead of man. The one Part they got screwed on was Alexander being stupid and tearing up his knee. That is like 4/5 on successful needs addressed and only OG gets hurt do to no fault of their own.

They may get lucky and be able to pick up a quality young backup from Waivers or trade for one before final cuts if they think their is still a need. As for your stance on the other things, I think you are letting your dislike of their Philosophy affect the way you see the other things around you. Sure, none of the New guys are guaranteed to be ALL-pro, but almost every single move this offseason has upgraded weak parts of the roster last year. They did go get Clement and Spikes as solid Vets on the OL. They went and Got Watton and by the way they Drafted a OG named Myers who will be very good next year if not sooner.

The OG position in this scheme requires much different timing and skill sets than traditional run blocking. Pass Blocking on the other hand is still the same except for the PA and Bootlegs. It is more complex on the OL than anywhere else and that is the reason why outsiders and first year guys struggle to pick it up. Hopefully, we use earlier picks next year to strengthen the OL. Until then, I am just going to make the best of a very good offseason IMHO.

[fontaine]

Maybe it's just me but I always thought of the G position as undervalued in the draft. A lot of times I believe that the difference between a 2nd/3rd round G and a 6th/7th rounder is that the higher ranked prospect is more prepared to play right away whereas the 2nd day guy needs one/two seasons of practice. I view Myers the same way.

Perhaps they had this kid ranked very highily in their boards with the intention that he could be used in his 2nd season and be just as effective as a guy taken a few rounds ahead of him.

[bloodsunday]

Darn, I can't rep you until I rep someone else.

What I do not agree with is your reasoning on the OL being able to contribute right away and the fact that this team should be built from the OL and DL out. I seriously think you draft guys who can help your team in the system implemented. NO position is more important than the other. The OL system is proven to work in DEN whether you like the style of it or not.
Clearly the Broncos FO agrees with this assertion. The one thing that I can say is no playoff wins in 6 years suggests that maybe the system isn't working. I firmly believe that we have taken the "system" perspective on our OL to an extreme. The system still needs talented players to run it. I go back and look our OL during 96 - 99 and there is no comparison to this one. The talent was hands down better.

The RED Zone problems MAY or MAY NOT be resolved with Road graders in the interior of the line. The Chiefs score the majority of their Red Zone rushing touchdowns outside of two yards WITH SWEEPS. Their Mobility and Familiarity is their best Asset NOT SIZE.
This is certainly true, there is no guarantee that it would fix it. The point really is that the Chiefs have invested pretty heavily in those OL and have guys that can both run block and pass block their system at a high-level. It's not an argument about road graters versus nimble guys, its about using resources on guys with talent that can execute your system at the highest level instead of settling on cheap FA and low round draft choices because it has worked in the past.

As for the resources argument, there are only limited resources available. This year they spent on LB, DL, and TE. They used the draft to Fill holes in a secondary built to play Zone coverage instead of man. The one Part they got screwed on was Alexander being stupid and tearing up his knee. That is like 4/5 on successful needs addressed and only OG gets hurt do to no fault of their own.
Agreed again on all accounts. I just disagree with the choices of spreading those resources that's all. We were pretty deep already at LB and DB (relative to OL and WR) to begin with. Gold was an upgrade no doubt, but an expensive one. Pierce looks like a wasted pick at this point. Shoate, LeSeur and Alexander are looking like wasted resources as well. This trend just cannot continue. As you stated you get limited resources to begin with, but we continue to waste them. The good teams are often built from the trenches out and can protect a weaker link in the secondary or WR corp. So why not restock the OL and DL and then get by with cheaper resources at the skill positions instead of throwing more money in that hole? I just don't understand. If it didn't work last year, draft more of them this year?

They may get lucky and be able to pick up a quality young backup from Waivers or trade for one before final cuts if they think their is still a need. As for your stance on the other things, I think you are letting your dislike of their Philosophy affect the way you see the other things around you. Sure, none of the New guys are guaranteed to be ALL-pro, but almost every single move this offseason has upgraded weak parts of the roster last year. They did go get Clement and Spikes as solid Vets on the OL. They went and Got Watton and by the way they Drafted a OG named Myers who will be very good next year if not sooner.

The OG position in this scheme requires much different timing and skill sets than traditional run blocking. Pass Blocking on the other hand is still the same except for the PA and Bootlegs. It is more complex on the OL than anywhere else and that is the reason why outsiders and first year guys struggle to pick it up. Hopefully, we use earlier picks next year to strengthen the OL. Until then, I am just going to make the best of a very good offseason IMHO.
No, I see this team as a pretty good team, something slightly above average and I am sure that's what the season will play out. I am not affected by this philosophy, its just an argument I thought I'd point out instead of waiting until next season to "jump on the bandwagon". This team may have upgraded individual players and individual positions, but is the team as a whole really any better? That's the question. We have a tendency to look at these individual players, but the team's performance is all that counts and that starts with your philosophy and system. It's only preseason, but this team has looked like a carbon copy of the past six. If this season ends the same as the previous six, do we admit we are chasing our tails and try something different?

[Mediator12]

Maybe it's just me but I always thought of the G position as undervalued in the draft. A lot of times I believe that the difference between a 2nd/3rd round G and a 6th/7th rounder is that the higher ranked prospect is more prepared to play right away whereas the 2nd day guy needs one/two seasons of practice. I view Myers the same way.

Perhaps they had this kid ranked very highily in their boards with the intention that he could be used in his 2nd season and be just as effective as a guy taken a few rounds ahead of him.

Seriously, fontaine no one has been able to master the timing in one Offseason at OG for this scheme. The timing and Zone responsibilities are drastically different at this level. The speed of the Line is so much faster. It is like the struggles my boy Paymah is having with Zone coverage. Two steps this way or that makes a HUGE difference. The intricacies of timing, technique, and consistency make it a daunting task to master in a short period of time.

[bloodsunday]

Maybe it's just me but I always thought of the G position as undervalued in the draft. A lot of times I believe that the difference between a 2nd/3rd round G and a 6th/7th rounder is that the higher ranked prospect is more prepared to play right away whereas the 2nd day guy needs one/two seasons of practice. I view Myers the same way.

Perhaps they had this kid ranked very highily in their boards with the intention that he could be used in his 2nd season and be just as effective as a guy taken a few rounds ahead of him.
Yeah I think there is something to this. Denver draft's OL as prospects generally. I am contending we should bring guys in that can A) compete right away and B) not only execute the system, but execute it to its highest level. A late round draft (on the whole) is going to be a guy that can maybe contribute and even start, but is nothing more than a solid/average player. I'm ready to have some All Pros on this OL again.

Everyone likes to point to George Foster as evidence they have used a high draft pick on a OL recently, but in reality that was a mistake. They thought they had a deal in place with Baltimore (to move back) that year and at the last moment New England swooped in and made a better deal. Denver was left to make the pick at the last moment and selected Foster. It's not as though they absolutely loved Foster and targeted that position.

[bloodsunday]

Seriously, fontaine no one has been able to master the timing in one Offseason at OG for this scheme. The timing and Zone responsibilities are drastically different at this level. The speed of the Line is so much faster. It is like the struggles my boy Paymah is having with Zone coverage. Two steps this way or that makes a HUGE difference. The intricacies of timing, technique, and consistency make it a daunting task to master in a short period of time.
I agree with what you are saying here. Considering the limited resources and the turnover on our rosters, perhaps we should simplify the schemes so that we can bring in players that can compete right away? That's sort of a version of what I am saying.

[fontaine]

Seriously, fontaine no one has been able to master the timing in one Offseason at OG for this scheme. The timing and Zone responsibilities are drastically different at this level. The speed of the Line is so much faster. It is like the struggles my boy Paymah is having with Zone coverage. Two steps this way or that makes a HUGE difference. The intricacies of timing, technique, and consistency make it a daunting task to master in a short period of time.

I knew I was right! :)

I think the most troubling thing about the OL isn't necessarily depth (because let's face it, if Champ or Plummer or Rod go down we're focked as well) but the fact that they haven't been able to develop a mid-late round lineman since Hamilton. Every year they've brought in prospects like Watton, Moore, the guy who quit, Sewell etc etc. I know Foster panned out ok but he was expected to as a first round pick. I view Cooper as a stopgap so he doesn't count but it's interesting to note that it's been a long time since we took churned out another Lepsis/Nalen type player and it looks like the chargeless and chefs seem to be doing pretty ok in that department.

[Mediator12]

Darn, I can't rep you until I rep someone else.


Clearly the Broncos FO agrees with this assertion. The one thing that I can say is no playoff wins in 6 years suggests that maybe the system isn't working. I firmly believe that we have taken the "system" perspective on our OL to an extreme. The system still needs talented players to run it. I go back and look our OL during 96 - 99 and there is no comparison to this one. The talent was hands down better.


This is certainly true, there is no guarantee that it would fix it. The point really is that the Chiefs have invested pretty heavily in those OL and have guys that can both run block and pass block their system at a high-level. It's not an argument about road graters versus nimble guys, its about using resources on guys with talent that can execute your system at the highest level instead of settling on cheap FA and low round draft choices because it has worked in the past.


Agreed again on all accounts. I just disagree with the choices of spreading those resources that's all. We were pretty deep already at LB and DB (relative to OL and WR) to begin with. Gold was an upgrade no doubt, but an expensive one. Pierce looks like a wasted pick at this point. Shoate, LeSeur and Alexander are looking like wasted resources as well. This trend just cannot continue. As you stated you get limited resources to begin with, but we continue to waste them. The good teams are often built from the trenches out and can protect a weaker link in the secondary or WR corp. So why not restock the OL and DL and then get by with cheaper resources at the skill positions instead of throwing more money in that hole? I just don't understand. If it didn't work last year, draft more of them this year?


No, I see this team as a pretty good team, something slightly above average and I am sure that's what the season will play out. I am not affected by this philosophy, its just an argument I thought I'd point out instead of waiting until next season to say "jump on the bandwagon". This team may have upgraded individual players and individual positions, but is the team as a whole really any better? That's the question. We have a tendency to look at these individual players, but the team's performance is all that counts and that starts with your philosophy and system. It's only preseason, but this team has looked like a carbon copy of the past six. If this season is the same as the previous six, do we admit we are chasing our tails and try something different?

I disagree on the way the team looks. Jake and the first team had zero TD drives last preseason. The OL had switched Lepsis to LT and Foster got the RT. We brought in two Vet TE's and gave them a bunch of preseason reps ONLY to cut them before the regular season. MA pulls the GROIN and ADIOS! Tatum Bell breaks his Pinky and is injured for the majority of the year. Lelie fails to catch a single ball and everyone is concerned about the #2 WR let alone the # 3WR that has never been that important in this Offense with good TE's.

The first team defense looked very good with both Trevor And Luther starting on the DL. Then they both got hurt. Zero Talent, besides hayward who was never going to carry the load, left on the DL for the WHOLE YEAR. Spragan was a stopgap who is getting plenty of work in Miami. Walls got injured and missed all the preseason work with Lynch, Kennoy, and Bailey. He has been there every snap this preseason.

ST's sucked with no potential to get better. ST's is still sucking, but has alot of potential to get better. Especially the return's and coverage units. There are better athletes and speed available this year.

Overall, I think this team has Improved AND is way more healthy at this point than Last year.

[bloodsunday]

I disagree on the way the team looks. Jake and the first team had zero TD drives last preseason. The OL had switched Lepsis to LT and Foster got the RT. We brought in two Vet TE's and gave them a bunch of preseason reps ONLY to cut them before the regular season. MA pulls the GROIN and ADIOS! Tatum Bell breaks his Pinky and is injured for the majority of the year. Lelie fails to catch a single ball and everyone is concerned about the #2 WR let alone the # 3WR that has never been that important in this Offense with good TE's.
They haven't really light it up this preseason either. They had to stay on the field an extra series against Houston to score and they were terrible running the ball. I don't really count San Fran because they are just terrible. Even there there were some bad signs. Three for Six in the redzone -- penalties were killing the offensive line.

The first team defense looked very good with both Trevor And Luther starting on the DL. Then they both got hurt. Zero Talent, besides hayward who was never going to carry the load, left on the DL for the WHOLE YEAR. Spragan was a stopgap who is getting plenty of work in Miami. Walls got injured and missed all the preseason work with Lynch, Kennoy, and Bailey. He has been there every snap this preseason.
The defense has looked pretty good. They appear to be getting more pressure on the QB, which is a very good thinkg. The injury to Champ is starting to become a concern. Above all else, they still aren't forcing turnovers.

ST's sucked with no potential to get better. ST's is still sucking, but has alot of potential to get better. Especially the return's and coverage units. There are better athletes and speed available this year.
Our specialists are better, but is the coverage any better? Coverage is about effort, hustle and practice. I am not sure this team puts enough dedication into special teams to truly be good at it. I absolutely hate the idea of keeping 3 kickers and a long snapper because you are weakening your roster somewhere else. I agree they have more potential, but they need to prove it to me.

Overall, I think this team has Improved AND is way more healthy at this point than Last year.
Even if this team is better, the schedule is tougher and the division is better. We weren't able to capitalize on a very weak AFC West last year and that was a killer. Oakland looks to be capable of beating any team on any given day. KC has struggled this preseason but they look to be the best team in the division. There is no reason to believe San Diego is going anywhere. Although I admit I have a gut feeling that they will come back to earth this season. The point is that this team could be better and still have worse results. They just haven't proved to me that they have overcome their demons. They looked very, very sloppy in both preseason games.

I sincerely hope I am wrong. I love this team and often take it too seriously so I have good reason to hope they do well. Experience has just taught me otherwise....

[Mediator12]

They haven't really light it up this preseason either. They had to stay on the field an extra series against Houston to score and they were terrible running the ball. I don't really count San Fran because they are just terrible. Even there there were some bad signs. Three for Six in the redzone -- penalties were killing the offensive line.

The Offense looks way better than last preseason to me. Yes the holding and OL penalties suck. However, they did score on both possessions in the red zone until the Holding penalty nullified it v. SF. The Texans game was interesting without Champ and Warren. The Offense played snap counts NOT series as I stated before. What was good is they Made adjustments and succeeded where last year they were unable to make solid adjustments during games IMHO.

The defense has looked pretty good. They appear to be getting more pressure on the QB, which is a very good thinkg. The injury to Champ is starting to become a concern. Above all else, they still aren't forcing turnovers.

True about TO's, but they did get three sacks on the first team offense. Plus Darrent is starting right now for champ and is not gambling as much as I think he will from the slot. Coyer is playing him in OFF coverage more than I ever saw in Practice.

Our specialists are better, but is the coverage any better? Coverage is about effort, hustle and practice. I am not sure this team puts enough dedication into special teams to truly be good at it. I absolutely hate the idea of keeping 3 kickers and a long snapper because you are weakening your roster somewhere else. I agree they have more potential, but they need to prove it to me.

Definitely have nowhere to go but up. The guys last year had no DESIRE to play ST's. I think that is different this year. We will see.

Even if this team is better, the schedule is tougher and the division is better. We weren't able to capitalize on a very weak AFC West last year and that was a killer. Oakland looks to be capable of beating any team on any given day. KC has struggled this preseason but they look to be the best team in the division. There is no reason to believe San Diego is going anywhere. Although I admit I have a gut feeling that they will come back to earth this season. The point is that this team could be better and still have worse results. They just haven't proved to me that they have overcome their demons. They looked very, very sloppy in both preseason games.

I never worry about who DEN plays. They can beat any team in this league. I worry about how they play. They have not been anywhere near Consistent the last two years for me. Especially some games they should have obliterated weaker teams. They lack the "killer Instinct" of Championship teams. THAT had better change.

I sincerely hope I am wrong. I love this team and often take it too seriously so I have good reason to hope they do well. Experience has just taught me otherwise....

If they play with consistency and Heart, I am not worried at all. Problem is, sometimes they fail to show up :cuss:

[bloodsunday]

If they play with consistency and Heart, I am not worried at all. Problem is, sometimes they fail to show up :cuss:
Alright, I'm ready to see some live action. I know that much for sure. I'll admit I have relatively low expectations compared to seasons gone by, but I am still very hopeful for the best.

[ozomulsion]

I just can't believe they say that they didn't know Darrent was a good corner. He was an excellent corner in college.

[Mediator12]

I just can't believe they say that they didn't know Darrent was a good corner. He was an excellent corner in college.

I think Bloodsunday has taken a little creative license with that particular assumption. They Knew he was good, but thought like most rookies it would take longer for him to develop at CB than returner. From that he assumes he was taken JUST FOR return capabilities. Personally, I think that is very far from the truth as NO ONE is drafted Counting to be an immediate starter on this team.

[bloodsunday]

I just can't believe they say that they didn't know Darrent was a good corner. He was an excellent corner in college.
They didn't say they didn't believe he was a good corner per se. They said they drafted him for his return skills. There was some concern about his size (I'm sure). He just wasn't a guy that got the draft hype machine working for him. It appears to me that they drafted Darrent as a returner and longer (than Paymah and Foxworth) term DB prospect. They got Foxworth and Paymah because they figured to play a bit sooner than Darrent given their size and coverage skills/experience.

The NFL is in love with 6' + corners that can cover the 6'4" WR.

[bloodsunday]

I think Bloodsunday has taken a little creative license with that particular assumption. They Knew he was good, but thought like most rookies it would take longer for him to develop at CB than returner. From that he assumes he was taken JUST FOR return capabilities. Personally, I think that is very far from the truth as NO ONE is drafted Counting to be an immediate starter on this team.
There's something to this, but no doubt if you read the quotes you get the sense that he was prioritized because he could be a returner right away. Put another way, he would not have been a Bronco in the 2nd round if he wasn't a damn fine returner.

Here's what I was talking about:
http://denverpost.com/broncos/ci_2941769

"We got a player," veteran safety John Lynch said Saturday night after Denver's 20-14 victory over the Houston Texans at Reliant Stadium. "Not bad for a guy who I was told was expected to help just as a returner right away."

Call it creative license, call it what you will. The Broncos used a 2nd round pick on a specialist, that's how this whole thread got going. They are fortunate, IMO, that they guy is a player as well. Had this pick on the direction that quote suggests, there would be more people complaining than just me.

[Mediator12]

There's something to this, but no doubt if you read the quotes you get the sense that he was prioritized because he could be a returner right away. Put another way, he would not have been a Bronco in the 2nd round if he wasn't a damn fine returner.

Here's what I was talking about:
http://denverpost.com/broncos/ci_2941769

"We got a player," veteran safety John Lynch said Saturday night after Denver's 20-14 victory over the Houston Texans at Reliant Stadium. "Not bad for a guy who I was told was expected to help just as a returner right away."

Call it creative license, call it what you will. The Broncos used a 2nd round pick on a specialist, that's how this whole thread got going. They are fortunate, IMO, that they guy is a player as well. Had this pick on the direction that quote suggests, there would be more people complaining than just me.

That is where the license comes in. No Draft pick is slated to start automatically in this system. Darrent was never Drafted to start at CB this year!

The Broncos used the second round pick on a versatile player that could contribute RIGHT AWAY on Special teams.

[bloodsunday]

That is where the license comes in. No Draft pick is slated to start automatically in this system. Darrent was never Drafted to start at CB this year!

The Broncos used the second round pick on a versatile player that could contribute RIGHT AWAY on Special teams.
So what would be the attitude of the Maners if D Williams was 6th on the depth chart but made the team because he was a returner? That's not the case, but the scenario that was a real posibility the way the pick was made. With Paymah struggling we could have been in real trouble with the draft two years in a row. And I would also say that if they didn't expect a rookie to contribute, why let go Herndon and Middlebrooks? Doesn't a rookie have to contribute?

[Mediator12]

Because depth is not starting. Herndon was going to be nickle or depth. Same as Middlebrooks. You know I agree they should have ponied up 650k more to rent Herndon for the year.

Contribute is ST's for most first year guys. Even first round picks. Darrent was a mid second rounder. He is playing like a First rounder though. Foxworth and Paymah are learning quicker than expected as well. The draft scenario you are advocating is pure speculation but sounds entirely pheasible. That does not make it true.

[bloodsunday]

Because depth is not starting. Herndon was going to be nickle or depth. Same as Middlebrooks. You know I agree they should have ponied up 650k more to rent Herndon for the year.

Contribute is ST's for most first year guys. Even first round picks. Darrent was a mid second rounder. He is playing like a First rounder though. Foxworth and Paymah are learning quicker than expected as well. The draft scenario you are advocating is pure speculation but sounds entirely pheasible. That does not make it true.
Let's agree to disagree. :thumbsup:

Don't anyone think I have something against any of these guys, because I don't. I am glad they are Broncos and wish them all success. I am just trying to share my opinion on what I think SHOULD HAVE happened rather than wait until it blows up and play back seat driver. Anyone can make a prediction after the fact. I really fear that we are going to pay for the lack of depth on offense this season and if we only keep 5 CBs we have just given up on Shoate and Alexander; two more wasted resources. That's assuming LeSeur survives the cut, which is in doubt at the moment.

[Cito Pelon]

Interesting that just in this preseason I've seen Hou and SF run the same "system" as Den, including the rollouts. Hell, they looked just like the Den offense at times.

I'd like to see the Broncs once in a while do something different on the O-line, like pull a guard, a center on a sweep. I do recall they did that very infrequently last year. It's not a guaranteed gang-buster play, but you have to keep the D guessing.

Another thing I would like to see that would make the O much better is for Jake to sidestep that DE nobody touches on the rollouts. Elway used to do it, and BVP has done it, but Jake I seldom see do that. He tends to fade back and throw off his back foot, or try to beat that DE to the sideline. I think the play should be run as it was designed for Elway - stop and sidestep the DE, then step up toward the LOS.

[Broncoman13]

If Williams was 6-0, he would have been a high 1st rounder. Give the Broncos credit for drafting a Darrell Green clone with a low 2nd round choice (Green was a 1st rounder in '83) and get a returner to boot.


If Williams was 6'0 he would have been the first CB off the board!!!

[Ballhawk]

Let's agree to disagree. :thumbsup:

Don't anyone think I have something against any of these guys, because I don't. I am glad they are Broncos and wish them all success. I am just trying to share my opinion on what I think SHOULD HAVE happened rather than wait until it blows up and play back seat driver. Anyone can make a prediction after the fact. I really fear that we are going to pay for the lack of depth on offense this season and if we only keep 5 CBs we have just given up on Shoate and Alexander; two more wasted resources. That's assuming LeSeur survives the cut, which is in doubt at the moment.


Well Shoate has been hurt and has not had a chance, but it would be a waste of a 5th round pick. Alexander was an UDFA so that is not really a resource.

It could be worse, look at Dallas cutting ties with Jacobs, a 2nd round pick, because he has been hurt and unable to play.

[ozomulsion]

If Williams was 6'0 he would have been the first CB off the board!!!

That's no ****. They always said that about him throughout his college career. REP

[Cito Pelon]

One of the things I like about Darrent is he's a happy kid. He's game for anything.

[Smilin Assassin]

Just got to thinking from the title of this thread...

What will be on the back of DJ Williams jersey? "D. Williams"? "DJ"? Or does he stay at just Williams and Darrent get the initial? Just curious...

Anybody know?

[24champ]

Im going to adopt Marques Anderson....

[Broncoman13]

Just got to thinking from the title of this thread...

What will be on the back of DJ Williams jersey? "D. Williams"? "DJ"? Or does he stay at just Williams and Darrent get the initial? Just curious...

Anybody know?


They're going to spell out his first and last name. DJ will also have DJ Williams on his jersey.

Mike Anderson will have Mike Anderson and Marques Anderson will have his full name as well... from what I've heard.

[bloodsunday]

Well Shoate has been hurt and has not had a chance, but it would be a waste of a 5th round pick. Alexander was an UDFA so that is not really a resource.

It could be worse, look at Dallas cutting ties with Jacobs, a 2nd round pick, because he has been hurt and unable to play.
See Clarett.

[Kaylore]

Just got to thinking from the title of this thread...

What will be on the back of DJ Williams jersey? "D. Williams"? "DJ"? Or does he stay at just Williams and Darrent get the initial? Just curious...

Anybody know?
Its "D.J. Williams" and "Darrent Williams". I'm not a fan of full names But DJ's looks sweet.

[phibacka31]

Back to the first statement about darrant williams helping us out this year. To me that answer is a resounding YES! He will make a great addition to the special teams return men, even though Charlie adams is looking pretty damn good right now making people look foolish. That is a very good thing to have depth at the return men. i think will get the job done very well.
Now to the second dimension this kid brings to the broncos, a great defending corner on a team that needs DB to cover extremely well considering our safeties for the most part lack on cover skills. I believe williams will be able to step in at any time on any allignment and hold his own. Another rookie to look out for is Foxworth, I believe he has a great chance of being a tremendous corner this year and in years to come. He is a great corver corner that loves to lay the wood on anyone. I also hope that paymuh turns out to be a great corner also.
Lastly I really don't care what shanny supposibly drafted him for , returning kicks or not , he is still on our team and he WILL make a diffence in two aspects of our team: Returning and Covering. Bo Broncos :charge: