Lelie cops get-tough attitude

[SoCalBronco]

Lelie cops get-tough attitude
Mr. Nice Guy might be a thing of the past

By Lee Rasizer, Rocky Mountain News
August 2, 2005

ENGLEWOOD - It has become glaringly obvious to Ashley Lelie that he has anger-management issues.

The issue isn't one of controlling his emotions but, instead, conjuring up some.


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In other words, it's time to stop being Mr. Nice Guy on the field and start busting some heads - or, at least, carry that kind of attitude into every practice and game.

The personality profile doesn't quite mesh with Lelie's normally laid-back demeanor. The dark side of his psyche in the past has surfaced only when he has been victim of a perceived cheap shot, inspiring his rage.

[SoCalBronco]

But playing with a chip on his shoulder might ultimately be the key to transforming Lelie from one of the NFL's best deep targets to an all-around threat and among the elite at his position.

Taking that step has just as much to do with Lelie improving his production on short and intermediate routes and becoming a factor in the red zone.

Actually, those issues are intertwined.

Upon his arrival in March for the Broncos' off-season conditioning program, Lelie requested a video breaking down all of his underneath routes last season.

The video did not include any of his seven touchdown receptions of 30 or more yards, which helped him lead the league in average per catch (20.1). Instead, Lelie got shots of him doing the dirty work of a receiver - the short slants, shallow crosses, 10-yard comebacks and red-zone snaps.

A pattern emerged.

"I wasn't as physical as I needed to be with contact and fighting for the ball with the underneath stuff," Lelie said.

It was worse than that, truth be told.

"Most of it was watching myself getting beat up," he said.

Defensive backs began to show respect only for Lelie's deep speed, particularly as the season progressed.

"Either they backed up all the way off or really tried to get in my face and be super, super physical," he noted.

Watching himself getting thrown around at times was hard.

And it made Lelie simmer.

He began to think about all the problems he had with technique or not reading the coverage correctly that perhaps shaved maybe 600 yards in potential yards after the catch, making his first 1,000-yard season seem like less of an accomplishment. It made him even more annoyed.

[SoCalBronco]

The transformation in personality the receiver now hopes for officially had taken root, with the video serving as a motivational tool behind Lelie's entire preparation for training camp.

"It made me hungrier to want to get out here to show everybody I can do everything," he said.

First stop, weight room

Just as important, it convinced him he would have to get stronger to face that challenge.

The decision to hit the weight room hard coincided with the natural development of Lelie's 25-year- old body.

It yielded significant results, too, even if he never will mold himself into a hulking figure at a lanky 6-foot-3.

An example of the gains he made could be seen in the bench press. Whereas he previously could do a single repetition, or maybe two, lifting 225 pounds, this off-season he was doing three sets of 225 seven or eight times.

"He's worked his (expletive) off," Broncos quarterback Jake Plummer said.

Lelie also gained 5 pounds, bringing his weight to about 205.

"Honestly, this year he's grown up," fellow receiver Rod Smith said. "He just grew up as far as this business and as far as understanding what we expect and what he can get out of himself. And he knows he can get a little more."

More catches. More yardage.

More fired up.

[SoCalBronco]

Gaining strength is fine, but it's how Lelie applies it that counts.

During the Broncos' morning practice Monday, he was aligned in the slot during red-zone drills. His assignment was to take an angle to strong-side linebacker D.J. Williams and cut him off on a running play.

At the snap, Williams bolted toward the line of scrimmage with an aggressive charge. Lelie met him, got his pads low . . .

And was sent off-kilter into the direction of the backfield.

The result wasn't the point. More important was Lelie's attitude to get his nose in the action and fight, manufactured or not.

'Out of character'

"That's probably the hardest thing," Lelie said. "Everything on the field kind of comes easy for me except being cocky and super-aggressive and that's something I've got to work on because it's out of my character. . . . But it's an aggressive, violent game and you can't be in the game just cool, calm and relaxed; you have to be aggressive and violent, so I've got to get that in me."

Something else Lelie needs is a dose of confidence from Plummer and the coaching staff to get the shorter and intermediate routes sent his way more often.

"We've asked him to do it but definitely not as much as we've asked a guy like Rod to do it," offensive coordinator Gary Kubiak said. "Everybody has their strengths. But it's our fault as coaches, too. We've got to get him in there making those tough plays underneath."

That lack of trust to look for Lelie anywhere but downfield has perhaps manifested itself most near the goal line.

Lelie made only one red-zone catch among his career-best 54 receptions last season, but, as he explained after watching the breakdown tape, there were only about five opportunities in that area for him to catch passes all season.

That was the embarrassing part. Not the lack of catches but the lack of confidence to go his way in money time.

"It's Rod or a running back or a tight end and the other guys are a decoy," Lelie said. "And that's not cool."

The skills are there

[SoCalBronco]

So far in training camp, Lelie has been called upon to run a slew of 5-yard slants, 7-yard outs and the like. The Broncos have been pleased by his progress, particularly in the mechanics of running those kinds of routes, and have noticed the intense focus Lelie has shown.

"He's so talented," receivers coach Steve Watson said. "Obviously, you don't change people's personalities, but with somebody as talented as he is, he can be as good as there is."

Back off Lelie now and "eventually teams are going to get sick of him catching the 5-, 6-yarders," Plummer said.

Get in Lelie's face and his improved strength could allow him a smoother release off the line in bump coverage and create more opportunities for receptions.

"He can play the inside game," Smith said. "He's a basketball player. So he's used to posting up and body positioning and all that. And I think now with him putting on a little bit of weight and being a lot stronger, he's going to be able to have that physical presence in the middle."

Not that the Broncos want to remove the long bomb from the equation because Lelie is one of the league's best at that facet.

Not only that, Lelie's ability to get deep helps stretch defenses and clear many of the underneath routes for Smith and the tight ends. Or he can burn the blitz in man coverage.

Lelie had such a chance Monday with cornerback Domonique Foxworth covering man-to-man, but the ball was overthrown.

"The one thing that's kind of starting to scare me is I haven't caught one long ball yet this whole camp," Lelie said with a laugh. "I haven't had too many opportunities, but I have had some. But a lot of the underneath stuff is really coming along. And I'm really liking how I'm reading defenses and stuff like that."

Perhaps somebody needs to get kicked in the shin or blindsided to get that ire up again.



rasizerl@RockyMountainNews.com

[SoCalBronco]

.

"He's worked his (expletive) off," Broncos quarterback Jake Plummer said.

.

great job, Ash. :thumbsup:

[watermock]

We all know Ash is a nice guy. It's nice to hear he is going to put some war paint on.

Boo-yah!

[Macnut]

Great story SoCal. Good to hear him get stronger.

[sirhcyennek81]

Suddenly, Broncos receivers could be on par with Oaklands...interesting...

[watermock]

I might be way off in homersville, but I think this team is going to be pretty good.

I think the team moved very efficatiously in many aspects. That's mockese for WE ARE GOING TO KICK SOME BUTT!

I like these moves. Sounds like MoC is a turd, but we can work past that...they will get him cooking eventually...
I like the Browncos...if a couple of these guys get into the rotation, it's all cool. The media thinks we have swapped lines. We have not. We brought in contenders. Our LB corp looks solid with Sykes, Predator and Pierce backing of an outstaning unit, very fast. I think Big Al has at least two or three years left, his legs are sound, and his shoulders repaired. I'm sorry, but they are like stock cars to me....Big Al should be fine for a few more years easy.

The secondary is iffy to say the least, but if we don't lose Champ, we can improvise till a real playa comes to the bank. That little squirt Williams reminds me alot of Darrell Green. He's quick and has a nose for the ball, something the D needs. He's undersized, but is very athletic. Payme and Foxy I dunno anything. I'm scared of the secondary early...they might make it, might not....

Deep Secondary won't be great but not bad with Fergy and the old man holding the fort. Can we just kidnap Ed Reed now?

[Ninjafied]

If Ashley learns to block and go over the middle (maybe even aka. Eddie Mac), we’re set for the next couple of years. But I’m a little disturbed by a conflicting pre-season report out there. Someone said that he’s taking the # 2 spot as a given, not really putting up a fight and making sloppy plays.
However, something tells me this story will win out, especially with Rod lined up across from him and being such a full-on team leader.
He had the sack to call Deltha ONeal out, so whipping a talented young WR into shape shouldn’t be too hard.

[RhymesayersDU]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to SoCalBronco again.

[Mediator12]

Let's see you do it now Ashley! This is year FOUR not TWO. This should have been your attitude two years ago. So you are a light frail WR, GET AFTER SOMEONE. This is football not the NBA!

[NaptownChief]

Let's see you do it now Ashley! This is year FOUR not TWO. This should have been your attitude two years ago. So you are a light frail WR, GET AFTER SOMEONE. This is football not the NBA!



Didn't someone post a camp update in the last day or two that said he was dogging it? If true it doesn't sound like a meaner nastier Lelie on the field.

[Mile High Shack]

Didn't someone post a camp update in the last day or two that said he was dogging it? If true it doesn't sound like a meaner nastier Lelie on the field.

yeah we are getting conflicting reports from the national guys versus our guys in regards to Ashley

It seems Darius, as long as his hand stays good, is our best hope for WR when Rod retires

[jonny1]

Someone did post something about Lelie doggin it on the first day, then came back and said that he was much more energetic the second, so I don't think it is anything to worry about.

You think Shanahan is going to put up with someone going through the motions? Remember Bubby?

[Jason in LA]

I'm glad to hear he's a lot stronger. One rep at 225 lbs isn't pretty weak for an NFL player. 3 sets of 8 is a lot stronger.

If he can be a threat underneath, he's going to be a Pro Bowler. We haven't seen too many plays where he can run after the catch. I remember one play in the Sants game. It was on that TD where he caught a 20 yard pass and just out ran everybody to the endzone. Getting him the ball in a position where he can run with it is key.

[Jason in LA]

I might be way off in homersville, but I think this team is going to be pretty good.

I think the team moved very efficatiously in many aspects. That's mockese for WE ARE GOING TO KICK SOME BUTT!

I like these moves. Sounds like MoC is a turd, but we can work past that...they will get him cooking eventually...
I like the Browncos...if a couple of these guys get into the rotation, it's all cool. The media thinks we have swapped lines. We have not. We brought in contenders. Our LB corp looks solid with Sykes, Predator and Pierce backing of an outstaning unit, very fast. I think Big Al has at least two or three years left, his legs are sound, and his shoulders repaired. I'm sorry, but they are like stock cars to me....Big Al should be fine for a few more years easy.

The secondary is iffy to say the least, but if we don't lose Champ, we can improvise till a real playa comes to the bank. That little squirt Williams reminds me alot of Darrell Green. He's quick and has a nose for the ball, something the D needs. He's undersized, but is very athletic. Payme and Foxy I dunno anything. I'm scared of the secondary early...they might make it, might not....

Deep Secondary won't be great but not bad with Fergy and the old man holding the fort. Can we just kidnap Ed Reed now?

From the reports I've read Williams has sucked in camp at CB. I don't think he'll be much of a DB, but he looks like he'll be a great return man.

[Odysseus]

Lelie needs to get into the pro bowl.

[NaptownChief]

Lelie needs to get into the pro bowl.


I bet he will once he gets a good QB.

[broncosteven]

I bet he will once he gets a good QB.


Who was last Chef WR in Pro-bowl? Just Curious

[Paladin]

Probably Norman Einstein.

[NaptownChief]

Who was last Chef WR in Pro-bowl? Just Curious


Kennison would have been last season if he got to play against Champ every week.


On a serious note I would guess Carlos Carson or possibly S.Paige. That probably won't change as long as Gonzo is healthy as he is too busy leading the NFL in receptions.

[NaptownChief]

Just looked it up and it was actually that thug Brock Middlebrook in 1997.

[DBroncos4life]

Kennison would have been last season if he got to play against Champ every week.


On a serious note I would guess Carlos Carson or possibly S.Paige. That probably won't change as long as Gonzo is healthy as he is too busy leading the NFL in receptions.



Lets see 50 yards of his 101 yards came on one play that was a fumble. Also he WAS'T BEING COVERED BY CHAMP!!!!!!!!!!!! I guess with your logic Q would have rushed for 2500 yards if he played KC every week.

[footstepsfrom#27]

An example of the gains he made could be seen in the bench press. Whereas he previously could do a single repetition, or maybe two, lifting 225 pounds, this off-season he was doing three sets of 225 seven or eight times.
WOW! I find it amazing that a guy who got drafted in the 1st round was benching less than most high school guys can at his weight...and it brings up an obvious question; how does he NOT plug into the fact that he needs the weight room LONG before he's been in the NFL for several years? I started pumping iron the first week of camp my sophmore year in high school when as a skinny 170 pound safety I was getting blasted into oblivion by linemen 80 pounds bigger than me. I never stopped and pumped my way all the way to 205 and raised my bench by 130 pounds because I wanted to be the one dishing out the punishment instead of receiving it. It's called MOTIVATION! We'd work out for hours every day to the point of total exhaustion and this was not something optional or unusual. Fact is...if you weren't in the weight room every day working your a** off to impress the coaches, you probably weren't going to see the field because they were in there also and knew who was and who wasn't committed. This was 30 years ago!! I thought all these guys came up with more advanced weight training methods and nutritional technology than we had. If you look at the preponderance of 300 pound linemen now coming out of high school when 20 years ago it was extremely rare, you have to figure that it's either steroids or the weights+nutrition (perhaps both) doing this. So I'm wondering how Lelie has even been allowed to avoid the weights with the Broncos until now. In fact how has he even SURVIVED in the NFL with a puny 225 bench? I'm amazed he hasn't been living on IR with these kind of numbers. Well better late than never I guess. Let's hope he's finally woke up. This kind of tells me something about this guy though. If you're making millions and your body is your meal ticket, it seems like nobody would have to tell you to get in the weight room. It also seems like a lack of motivation is the only reason for not doing this a long time ago. That says something disturbing about character. I hope that along with Ashley's sudden realization that he needs to hit the weights is also coming an understanding that you get to the be the best with Rod Smith's work ethic, not just talent.

[Odysseus]

I bet he will once he gets a good QB.

Nobody is scared of any of our running backs right now. Portis was scary. Bell is not. If the Broncos are putting up 7's from mid field running the ball then Jake will look better than advertised. Our season is squarely on the back of our OL this year.

[Play2win]

I'm glad to hear he's a lot stronger. One rep at 225 lbs isn't pretty weak for an NFL player. 3 sets of 8 is a lot stronger.

If he can be a threat underneath, he's going to be a Pro Bowler. We haven't seen too many plays where he can run after the catch. I remember one play in the Sants game. It was on that TD where he caught a 20 yard pass and just out ran everybody to the endzone. Getting him the ball in a position where he can run with it is key.
Yeah, if its the play I'm thinking of, he looked pretty much like a YOUNG Jerry Rice on that play. zowie!

Alot of that is going to be on Jake (or whoever) to deliver the ball to our WRs IN-STRIDE (READ: Lead the receiver).

[Odysseus]

It also seems like a lack of motivation is the only reason for not doing this a long time ago. That says something disturbing about character. I hope that along with Ashley's sudden realization that he needs to hit the weights is also coming an understanding that you get to the be the best with Rod Smith's work ethic, not just talent.

Exactly. All his talk about getting tough...I just shake my head. Wow. He did two pushups? Whoa. Dude!

Screw Hawaii! He should'nt go home until he's invited...to the pro bowl.

[NaptownChief]

Lets see 50 yards of his 101 yards came on one play that was a fumble. Also he WAS'T BEING COVERED BY CHAMP!!!!!!!!!!!! I guess with your logic Q would have rushed for 2500 yards if he played KC every week.


I think he might have been closer to 3000 yards.

[DBroncos4life]

I think he might have been closer to 3000 yards.


No it would have been just a touch under 2500. He only had 156 yards during that game.

[TotallyScrewed]

Could it just be that Ashley worked the conditioning end of strength and conditioning? Maybe he got the advise to keep lean and speedy? Maybe that's one reason why he's leading the league in TD's over thirty out? Wr's typically chicken box anyways and just get in the way, which is often enough to spring their teammate. The idea that he'd stick his nose in there against Al Wilson says volumes more to me than his bench rep's. On the other hand, three sets of 8-10 at 225 is pretty darn impressive to me for a WR.

I'll also be happier if he learns to NOT block from behind.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Could it just be that Ashley worked the conditioning end of strength and conditioning? Maybe he got the advise to keep lean and speedy? Maybe that's one reason why he's leading the league in TD's over thirty out? Wr's typically chicken box anyways and just get in the way, which is often enough to spring their teammate. The idea that he'd stick his nose in there against Al Wilson says volumes more to me than his bench rep's. On the other hand, three sets of 8-10 at 225 is pretty darn impressive to me for a WR.

I'll also be happier if he learns to NOT block from behind.
In Denver's system the WR's are crucial to blocking downfield, ie; Eddie Mac...so there's no question that being strong is important, not to mention that he's got to get off the LOS against big physical corners trying to jam. I'm glad he's mixing it up with Wilson, but he's probably able to do that NOW as a result of his increased strength, where he might not have previously. My point is simply; how did he get this far without being forced to get stronger? All NFL teams employ strength/conditioning coaches. What's taken so long for him to "get it"?

[jonny1]

I'm sure he's been weight-lifting since he was drafted, you don't go from one rep to 3 sets of 8-10 in one offseason. I think he is seeing the results of continued effort over the last 2 1/2 years to get stronger, without losing his speed.

[Atlas]

yeah we are getting conflicting reports from the national guys versus our guys in regards to Ashley

It seems Darius, as long as his hand stays good, is our best hope for WR when Rod retires

I totally disagree. Lelie is so much more polished that Watts. Lelie is also very quick and deceptivly so because of his long stride. Once he catches the ball LBs will be amazed at how fast he got away. He turns the ball upfield very quickly. If he can get open on these short slants and curls and catch the ball he will get lots of Y.A.C.

[SoCalBronco]

yeah we are getting conflicting reports from the national guys versus our guys in regards to Ashley

It seems Darius, as long as his hand stays good, is our best hope for WR when Rod retires

Not sure where your getting that conclusion from. Lelie had 1100 yards last year and Watts had a little more than 400. Somehow Darius is our "best hope" though, huh?

[footstepsfrom#27]

I'm sure he's been weight-lifting since he was drafted, you don't go from one rep to 3 sets of 8-10 in one offseason. I think he is seeing the results of continued effort over the last 2 1/2 years to get stronger, without losing his speed.
The article makes it pretty clear that his dedication to the weight room began this off season as he looked at himself getting man-handled on film. But even if it were true he'd been lifting all along, how'd he get through college in a Division I school w/o hitting the weights? Incidently, having lifted myself, 3 sets of 8 reps at 225 probably translates to a Max BP of 300+ pounds. One would assume he's going to be a much better blocker this year and should definitely (finally) be a threat in the short/medium range game.

[TotallyScrewed]

Let's not compare Ash to Eddie. Let's not even try at this point.

But realistically, getting "in the way" is *often* enough to spring the play for more yardage. Lelie did just that last year, getting QG a TD against KC. Lelie also screwed the pooch on a big run for RD by blocking badly in the back.

His willingness to stick his nose in there is a result of attitude not the extra 5-10 pounds.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Let's not compare Ash to Eddie. Let's not even try at this point.

But realistically, getting "in the way" is *often* enough to spring the play for more yardage. Lelie did just that last year, getting QG a TD against KC. Lelie also screwed the pooch on a big run for RD by blocking badly in the back.

His willingness to stick his nose in there is a result of attitude not the extra 5-10 pounds.
I'm not comparing Lelie to Eddie Mac. Nor am I saying his weight gain accounts for all the potential for future blocking success. I'm saying that if he's bigger and stronger, that helps produce the attitude that he can do it. I'm still scratching my head as to why he hasn't figured all this out by now, or more to the point, why someone didn't make him do it.

[Jason in LA]

His speed and height has gotten him by. I bet Randy Moss isn't all that strong.

[Atlas]

His speed and height has gotten him by. I bet Randy Moss isn't all that strong.

If he is benching over 315 lbs that is pretty impressive considering he is a tall skinny WR. I bet Moss can't bench over 300

[footstepsfrom#27]

His speed and height has gotten him by. I bet Randy Moss isn't all that strong.
That's exactly what I think too...but it goes back to what the coaches expect from a #1 pick...maybe he's been allowed to skate because he's a first round talent, as proven by the deep balls. I doubt Triandos Luke or Romar Crenshaw can get by without making a regular apearance in the weight room.

[Drek]

That's exactly what I think too...but it goes back to what the coaches expect from a #1 pick...maybe he's been allowed to skate because he's a first round talent, as proven by the deep balls. I doubt Triandos Luke or Romar Crenshaw can get by without making a regular apearance in the weight room. I doubt anyone is allowed to skate without showing up in the weight room, including Lelie. This organization has a history of never beign shy about telling guys if they should or should add or loose some weight. In fact, I seem to recall them asking Ash to do just that for the start of camp last year and he did so. He was more of a stick than Watts when he first showed up here, now he's about 10-15 pounds heavier, a hell of a lot stronger, and still just as fast.

Why didn't this happen until now? Well, probably has something to do with what June Jones looks for in his WRs (speedsters) and the fact that Lelie is exactly his type of guy. In college ball you got a guy for 4 or 5 years tops, you can't afford to have a speed WR add significant weight in exchange for strength because if it causes a drop in speed you effectively lost a year of the guy's elidgability tweaking with him physically. Better to tweak with them technique-wise where the risks aren't so great.

[footstepsfrom#27]

In college ball you got a guy for 4 or 5 years tops, you can't afford to have a speed WR add significant weight in exchange for strength because if it causes a drop in speed you effectively lost a year of the guy's elidgability tweaking with him physically. Better to tweak with them technique-wise where the risks aren't so great.
Getting stronger doesn't cut your speed. If anything it will add to it. Putting on excess weight that's to much for your frame will do that but simply increasing your strength won't, as evidenced by the fact that Lelie is bigger and stronger now but just as fast. I'm responding to what the article says; that Lelie started hitting the weights this offseason when he saw the film of him getting punked.

That seems to be a question without an answer.

[SoCalBronco]

Getting stronger doesn't cut your speed. If anything it will add to it. Putting on excess weight that's to much for your frame will do that but simply increasing your strength won't, as evidenced by the fact that Lelie is bigger and stronger now but just as fast. I'm responding to what the article says; that Lelie started hitting the weights this offseason when he saw the film of him getting punked.

That seems to be a question without an answer.

I dont think its fair to say he just started working hard this summer. Wabbit reported last year he saw him at the Valley in late January starting to work out, a full month before the workout program began. Perhaps he had alot of strength issues to work on and only partially met his goals in that area last year and needed more time to work on them. He was definitely out there working hard last year.

[footstepsfrom#27]

I dont think its fair to say he just started working hard this summer. Wabbit reported last year he saw him at the Valley in late January starting to work out, a full month before the workout program began. Perhaps he had alot of strength issues to work on and only partially met his goals in that area last year and needed more time to work on them. He was definitely out there working hard last year.
OK...now that makes some sense...that's what I'm looking for, some kind of evidence about what he was doing up till now. Thanks for the info. In any case, it sounds like he's now more equipped to be the guy we drafted instead of just the homerun threat Plummer can look for a couple times a game.

[Mediator12]

I have said all along that Lelie is his own worst enemy. He seriously needs to sitdown with a good Sports Psych guy or ME and we will work this out. Blocking like rebounding in basketball is effort and Determination more than physical ability. As a WR, he needs to be three times more Physical with DB's who are smaller than him. As a blocker, he needs to practice technique on how to engage the WLB in order to blow him up on a cutback.

I believe everyone here knows you can weight lift for years and get NO RESULTS if you do not tax the muscles but simply go through the motions.

[Rascal]

Socal,

Looks like your guy DJ is a madman...

"During the Broncos' morning practice Monday, he was aligned in the slot during red-zone drills. His assignment was to take an angle to strong-side linebacker D.J. Williams and cut him off on a running play.

At the snap, Williams bolted toward the line of scrimmage with an aggressive charge. Lelie met him, got his pads low . . .

And was sent off-kilter into the direction of the backfield."

I need to get a new adopt a bronco. I haven't even heard Eukuban mentioned.

[watermock]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have said all along that Lelie is his own worst enemy. He seriously needs to sitdown with a good Sports Psych guy or ME and we will work this out.

That's the last thing he needs is to be mentored by a moron.

Work out WHAT exactly? Certain people just spin my bed. Go talk to Ray Lewis and have your face punched in.

[Mediator12]

That's the last thing he needs is to be mentored by a moron.

Work out WHAT exactly? Certain people just spin my bed. Go talk to Ray Lewis and have your face punched in.

ROFL! Knowitall :hitself:

[FADERPROOF]

That's the last thing he needs is to be mentored by a moron.

Work out WHAT exactly? Certain people just spin my bed. Go talk to Ray Lewis and have your face punched in.

drinking again, mock?

[-Slap-]

I doubt anyone is allowed to skate without showing up in the weight room, including Lelie. This organization has a history of never beign shy about telling guys if they should or should add or loose some weight. In fact, I seem to recall them asking Ash to do just that for the start of camp last year and he did so. He was more of a stick than Watts when he first showed up here, now he's about 10-15 pounds heavier, a hell of a lot stronger, and still just as fast.

I remember being pissed off when we drafted Lelie. First off, I had my heart set on Ed Reed. Second, I never understood why teams use first round picks on guys who have obvious physical shortcomings. For example, undersized linemen, weakarmed quarterbacks, any skill position player who's slow, small or skinny.

Of course the first goddamn words out of Shanahan's mouth were, "we're going to put some weight on him". Unknown is why we didn't draft a complete player (Reed) at a position of equal need instead.

I predicted leg problems in Lelie's first training camp and wasn't surprised to see him struggle with hamstring trouble. If you wanted a big receiver, you should have drafted one, Mikey. Some guys can't add weight easily and still play.

In the first round we chose the laid back kid who didn't feel the need to lift weights seriously until his third year in the NFL instead of the totally driven football junkie who studies gamefilm at home.

[Raider Bill]

1 rep of 225. LMAO! You're right SoCal, he's way better than Porter. !

[SoCalBronco]

1 rep of 225. LMAO! You're right SoCal, he's way better than Porter. !

Yep, because reps in the gym are the determining factor. Now I knew you were a Raider fan and homer but I didnt think even you would be arguing that Johnnie Morant is better than Ashley Lelie. Apparently thats what your arguing. Pathetic.

[SoCalBronco]

Ash has been working hard ever since he got here. This whole, "oh only this year he is working hard" is bull****. Wabbit personally observed him working his ass off last year in late January more than a month before the team's workout program began. He has never missed a workout in the voluntary workouts in three years that I know of. Just because, due to his frame, it took him some time to improve doesnt mean he should be hated on. He obviously improved his strength last year. According to the haters, if all he can do is just catch deep balls than his production should be roughly the same each year, but here he increased his catch totals by about 40 percent, and almost doubled his yards. Even though he caught several of his balls via the deep play he clearly got better at the line last year to improve in production that much. In addition, he improved regarding drops. He continues to work hard. I dont know what you people want. He has worked hard every offseason...EVEN in the weightroom. Go back and look at the quotes last summer from Shanny not from him. Ash has 2 more years on his contract. If he continues on his pace, you'll see quite a market for him when he is a FA after 2006 and none of the haters will be heard to complain if he signs elsewhere for more money, that will be justice. Ash gave us 1100 yards last year and about 200 yards in PI calls. He came through in the CLUTCH. In two years when he is a FA, you guys will see just how much the league will pay for a guy like him.

[Macnut]

I remember being pissed off when we drafted Lelie. First off, I had my heart set on Ed Reed. Second, I never understood why teams use first round picks on guys who have obvious physical shortcomings. For example, undersized linemen, weakarmed quarterbacks, any skill position player who's slow, small or skinny.

Of course the first goddamn words out of Shanahan's mouth were, "we're going to put some weight on him". Unknown is why we didn't draft a complete player (Reed) at a position of equal need instead.

I predicted leg problems in Lelie's first training camp and wasn't surprised to see him struggle with hamstring trouble. If you wanted a big receiver, you should have drafted one, Mikey. Some guys can't add weight easily and still play.

In the first round we chose the laid back kid who didn't feel the need to lift weights seriously until his third year in the NFL instead of the totally driven football junkie who studies gamefilm at home.
I too was surprised that Denver drafted him. I too wish Denver went with Ed Reed instead of Lelie. Maybe in a couple of years some of those anti Lelie guys are going to get their wish. Maybe, after Lelie's contract is up, Denver can trade him to another team or he will sign somewhere else better utilized. But I highly doubt it, Shannahan thinks too highly of him to send him anywhere else.

[footstepsfrom#27]

[QUOTE=SoCalBronco]Ash has been working hard ever since he got here. This whole, "oh only this year he is working hard" is bull****. Wabbit personally observed him working his ass off last year in late January more than a month before the team's workout program began. He has never missed a workout in the voluntary workouts in three years that I know of. Just because, due to his frame, it took him some time to improve doesnt mean he should be hated on. He obviously improved his strength last year.QUOTE]
Well the main point we ought to be focused on NOW is what he is doing currently, as opposed to whatever may be in the past. I was only responding to the article that clearly indicated his dedication in the weight room started this past year as a result of him looking at game film of his own deficiencies. Regardless of the reasons...he's now much stronger. A new attitude seems to also be in place. If that's true I'd expect him to be a much more complete player this year.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Ash has been working hard ever since he got here. This whole, "oh only this year he is working hard" is bull****. Wabbit personally observed him working his ass off last year in late January more than a month before the team's workout program began. He has never missed a workout in the voluntary workouts in three years that I know of. Just because, due to his frame, it took him some time to improve doesnt mean he should be hated on. He obviously improved his strength last year. According to the haters, if all he can do is just catch deep balls than his production should be roughly the same each year, but here he increased his catch totals by about 40 percent, and almost doubled his yards. Even though he caught several of his balls via the deep play he clearly got better at the line last year to improve in production that much. In addition, he improved regarding drops. He continues to work hard. I dont know what you people want. He has worked hard every offseason...EVEN in the weightroom.
Well the point we should be focused on NOW is what he is currently doing. I was simply responding to the article that clearly stated his weight room dedication began this year. In any case, he's apparently much stronger now and I'd expect that to transform into him being a much better all around player this year. Stats aside, we need more from him than just the deep threat, and it seems hopeful he may finally be able to provide that. I do agree that taking a guy with such meager strength numbers in the 1st round seems questionable and that is certainly a fair question to ask. Is it not?

[Raider Bill]

Yep, because reps in the gym are the determining factor. Now I knew you were a Raider fan and homer but I didnt think even you would be arguing that Johnnie Morant is better than Ashley Lelie. Apparently thats what your arguing. Pathetic.



Arguing that Lelei's high yards per catch makes him better than Porter is ridiculous also. Todd Pinkston was right behind him in that category. I wouldnt confuse him with a good reciever! All either of them has done is run fly patterns. Porter catches balls all over the field.

[Raider Bill]

1 rep is pathetic for an NFL player. I could throw up 225 freshman year of high school, at approximately the same size Lelei is now.


6'4" 170 then!

6'4 260 now!

[SoCalBronco]

Arguing that Lelei's high yards per catch makes him better than Porter is ridiculous also. Todd Pinkston was right behind him in that category. I wouldnt confuse him with a good reciever! All either of them has done is run fly patterns. Porter catches balls all over the field.

I dont remember Pinkston getting 1100 yards last season? Yes, Lelie's routes up to this point in his career has been somewhat limited, but unlike Pinkston, there is a difference between being able to come through on those routes just a few times and coming through on those routes a whole bunch of times. In addition, Lelie has outperformed Porter in terms of total production (yards) even when you take into account Porter has had success at a more diverse variety of routes. Plus, Porter has had an extra year of experience. In terms of catches and PIs, Lelie got his team 1300 yards this year. Thats pretty good id say for a 3rd year pro even if his routes were somewhat limited. He outproduced your boy by a couple hundred yards. Im not sure what you want me to tell you, Bill.

[Raider Bill]

Lelei has benefited from continuity of staff scheme and quarter back.

Porter has had 3 different coaches and systems and off the top of my head 6 different quarterbacks throwing him the ball (most of them being slop)

Collins was acquired late in June and didnt get any of the starters reps in camp, coming into a new system himself. Not to mention the lack of a running game.

Anyhow all that being said, Porter is the more complete reciever.

[baja]

Lelei has benefited from continuity of staff scheme and quarter back.

Porter has had 3 different coaches and systems and off the top of my head 6 different quarterbacks throwing him the ball (most of them being slop)

Collins was acquired late in June and didnt get any of the starters reps in camp, coming into a new system himself. Not to mention the lack of a running game.

Anyhow all that being said, Porter is the more complete reciever.

Ask yourself this who would you rather have on your team Porter or Ash

[SoCalBronco]

Lelei has benefited from continuity of staff scheme and quarter back.

Porter has had 3 different coaches and systems and off the top of my head 6 different quarterbacks throwing him the ball (most of them being slop)

Collins was acquired late in June and didnt get any of the starters reps in camp, coming into a new system himself. Not to mention the lack of a running game.

Anyhow all that being said, Porter is the more complete reciever.

Im not sure there is a great argument there as to continuity of staff and scheme, Bill. Fred Biletnikoff has been Jerry's coach from the word go. Ashley had Karl Dorrell his first year and then Steve Watson in 2003 and 2004. Regarding the scheme, yes, Jerry has changed schemes. But he only changed schemes once. Gruden and Callahan's passing system is the same. Norv's system is different to be sure, its a little more down the field so there is some adjustment there for Jerry. However in one sense, its an easier system to get ahold of for a WR since its based on numbers in a passing tree. The WR only has to memorize routes matched up with a number i.e. 0-quick out 1- hitch 2- slant 3- square out 4- curl 5- post 6- comeback 7- corner 8- square in 9- go, as opposed to having to memorize the whole play name and then figuring out what his responsibility is in that play. For example in Gruden and Callahan's offense, and Shanny's as well, if the play call was "22 Texas", Jerry would have to know that if he is the Flanker on the Texas combination, he is running a curl route. And if he were in the slot or 2nd reciever from the outside, he would be running an option route at 10-12 yards either running a post if the area between the hashes is open or running an outbreaking hook if it were closed. Similarly, if he was the third reciever on the side, he would have to know that in Texas, he would run a Delay/Angle route. With Turner's system its easier. You must match up your own number, you dont have to think of the play name and then ask yourself what are the route combos for the play and where am I aligned. If its 659, Jerry knows as the third number, he is running a 9, a go. Simple.

Interesting you brought up different systems for another reason. I could reasonably argue this system here isnt one that is ideally suited for Lelie. A shotgun wide open offense like Linehan ran in Minnesota would prolly be better for Lelie's stats too, so thats another consideration we can take into mind if we are going to compare systems and such.

Regarding different QBs throwing him the ball, okay ill give you that to an extent, however you have crapped on our QBs for the last few years so now I can use that against you here too.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Jerry's had Rice and Brown to mentor...Ashley just Rod. 2-1 edge in mentors goes to Porter, meaning he loses that one...we're far a field from where we started... :stuck:

[Hulamau]

If Ashley learns to block and go over the middle (maybe even aka. Eddie Mac), we’re set for the next couple of years. But I’m a little disturbed by a conflicting pre-season report out there. Someone said that he’s taking the # 2 spot as a given, not really putting up a fight and making sloppy plays.
However, something tells me this story will win out, especially with Rod lined up across from him and being such a full-on team leader.
He had the sack to call Deltha ONeal out, so whipping a talented young WR into shape shouldn’t be too hard.

Dont listen to that absolute crap from a lelie hater about him doggin' it. My brother was at the first three morning and afternoon practices and he watched lelie closely and said he looked fine and very consistent. He also remarked that Ash has noticably bigger guns this year which you can see in one of the OF1 camp photos where he is on one knee in between Maurice and another Bronco yucking it up. Ash's triceps are WAY bigger than last year.

If he stays healthy, which he's been very good at doing the first three years, he's going to have an all world season.

I keep harping on what June Jones said when we drafted Lelie, Jones said: After three years in the league he'll make everyone forget about all the other 2002 WR class.

He's about to do just that and more!

[SoCalBronco]

Dont listen to that absolutecrap from a lelei hater about him doggin' it. My brother was at the gfirst trthee mornig nand afternoon pratices and he watch lelie closely and said he looked fine and very consistent. He also reamkerd that ASh has noticely bigger guns this year which you can see in one ot hte MF1 camp photos where he is nealign down in between Maurice and antoerh Brobco yucking it up. Ashs triceps are WAY bigger than last year.

If he stays healty, which hes been very good at doing the first three years, hes goingto ha ve an all world season.

I keep harping on what June Jones said when WE drafted Lelie, HE said: After three yeras in the league he'll make everyone forget about all the other 2002 WR class.

He's about to do just that and more!

Yep I remember JJ saying that. I think Ash is going to be a beast this season if Plummer can be a little more accurate. I see a little of Ash in Jason Rivers, although Rivers is just a tad slower and shorter.

[DBroncos4life]

I bet Boston can bench 700 pounds. I guess that makes him the best WR in the game.

[Kaylore]

I agree that Ed Reed was the better, maybe best player on the board in that draft. However, looking at where we are at now and where we are going, I think Lelie is ready to take it to the next level. He made some mental changes last year and his production increased. That was more about taking football more seriously and working on his game. This year its about becoming a real competitor getting the fire to go out. And I think he'll impress again this year.

[Hulamau]

Its pretty amazing that Lelie tied the record ( set by Jerry Rice) for yards per catch with over 20 catches a season with 20.1 ypc average considering Plummers general lack of accuracy and reticence to look for Ash on many shorter routes.

Lets hope this year Plummmer has really worked on his long ball and it seems they are all making a concerted effort to get Lelie the ball often in the short to mid slants and hooks as well, so he could easily approach 90 catches this year and take over the number 1 slot in function, if not officially, by early in the year.

I really hope Watts can overcome his catching handicap. He seems to have so much of everything else going for him with great routes and killer off the line moves etc.. Its ashame that injury appears to be a real factor.

I really hope Jerry Rice makes the team too, which I think he will, since just his presence, confidence and support, much less all the sublte almost unteachable things the younger WR like Ash, Watts and Luke will glean from watching him everyday, will have a big impact on our passing game. Plus, if Rod should get hurt, God forbid, Jerry would be a decent vetern plug in for him as a solid number 2 and respected leadership.

[Raider Bill]

Ask yourself this who would you rather have on your team Porter or Ash


Porter.

[baja]

Porter.

That will change this year I predict.

[Raider Bill]

But he only changed schemes once.

Bzzt wrong.... Callahan completely scrapped 2002's offense in 2003.

[Raider Bill]

As far as Turner's system being easy, Moss commented today that it's pretty complicated, but then again, Mike Tice isn't splitting the atom out there in Minnesota.

[Raider Bill]

Come on dude, if you're defending the Broncos last year, you're defending the run and putting a safety up in a run gap.

If you're defending the Raiders last year, you're bracketing their WR's.

[DB-Freak]

Damn........

I didn't know bench pressing was a such dominant factor in grading a WR over another.

[SoCalBronco]

Bzzt wrong.... Callahan completely scrapped 2002's offense in 2003.

It was the same for the most part. He may have used certain deeper plays more so than others, but it was the same. I remember seeing some stuff where they had them wired and i recognized many of the play names as WCO play names, things like Texas, Z In, Shallow Cross, Flanker Drive, Bingo Cross, Stick, Spot etc. It was familiar. Maybe they relied on deeper patterns and more 7 step stuff than usual but its still from the same playbook so he should be okay with that since it was still there before, albeit perhaps not stressed as much as the other stuff.

And honestly Bill, the players are going over this stuff in meetings before practice during the installation period in camp, they see clips of the route combinations versus a whole bunch of coverages, they are taught by pro coaches, they go out and practice it on Wednesday, Thursday and Friday against man to man in 1 on 1 and then against zone in the Routes on Air period and then against both in 7 on 7s, 9 on 7s and then 11 on 11s and then they have their meetings at night going over practice and they are drilled by the WR coach on the specifics. Even if there was a radical diversion in offensive plays from 2002 to 2003, which for the reasons stated above, I dont think is the case, you should be very prepared by game day. They go over it every day with the staff. Come on.

[DB-Freak]

1 rep is pathetic for an NFL player. I could throw up 225 freshman year of high school, at approximately the same size Lelei is now.


6'4" 170 then!

6'4 260 now!
I won't comment on the credentials, but 225 at freshmen year of highschool is an impressive feat of strength. I mean very impressive.

In fact, you had a BW of 170 makes it extremely impressive.

And I remember your 40 time being quite impressive too?

[Raider Bill]

And honestly Bill, the players are going over this stuff in meetings before practice during the installation period in camp, they see clips of the route combinations versus a whole bunch of coverages, they are taught by pro coaches, they go out and practice it on Wednesday, Thursday and Friday against man to man in 1 on 1 and then against zone in the Routes on Air period and then against both in 7 on 7s, 9 on 7s and then 11 on 11s and then they have their meetings at night going over practice and they are drilled by the WR coach on the specifics. Even if there was a radical diversion in offensive plays from 2002 to 2003, which for the reasons stated above, I dont think is the case, you should be very prepared by game day. They go over it every day with the staff. Come on.

If they have to go over it this much then isn't it a bit more complicated than you're letting on?

Wouldnt the guy with the same coach staff scheme and quarterback for the most part have the upper hand?

[Raider Bill]

Why does it typically take a wide reciever 3 seasons to "break out" ?

[Raider Bill]

And I remember your 40 time being quite impressive too?

Nothing that impressive.. a hand timed 4.7 maybe.

[Taco John]

Why does it typically take a wide reciever 3 seasons to "break out" ?


Because the game is much more technical at the pro level than at the college level. Add the fact that the speed of the game increases, and even moreso on the outside where the fastest players are, and there's quite a hump to bust.

[Hulamau]

Lelie no question about it! Porter is OK, and Ash certainly needed more development time coming from U. Hawaii with a run and shoot offense, but he has WAY more potential than Porter, which was just starting to blossom last year. Porter is a decent WR, but will never be more than a number 2 ( particuarly now in Chokeland :-).

Lelie just tore up the WAC his last year in college, and while its been an adjustment for him jumping to the NFL, just like June Jones said it would be, both Jones and Shanahan saw the truly special talent in waiting that is likely to breakout into a household name this year.

My only regret for Lelie is that he didnt hook up with a true long ball QB that has an accurate arm. He would already have racked up pin ball numbers with a guy like Manning, Culpepper or even Billy Volek throwing him the rock.

Maybe Plummer will find some real touch on his go route this year, either way with the extra work Lelie is sure to get in the shorter routes, we'll see a much more complete player this year.

At Hawaii, Lelie's confidence was really high when he knew he was the man and getting all the long or short balls thrown his way at crunch time. The more we start to trust and throw him the ball 9 to 10 times a game, the more he'll reward us all (except the Fader and Queef fans)!

[DB-Freak]

Lame.

[SoCalBronco]

If they have to go over it this much then isn't it a bit more complicated than you're letting on?

Wouldnt the guy with the same coach staff scheme and quarterback for the most part have the upper hand?

The fact that they go over it alot may or may not mean that a particular system is complicated. I do not think it is that really since every team in the league prepares heavily. In the NFL, every staff works close to 100 hour work weeks and when they get a chance to work with the players on Wed, Thurs and Fri, naturally, you want to make your guys as prepared as possible for Sunday. Its pro football, Bill. This isnt like college ball where the NCAA mandates that coaches and players can interact for a maximum of 20 hours per week, i believe. Everyone in the league has meetings in the morning and then practices and then meetings again with film study. Everyone works hard whether the system is complicated or not. So the fact that they are going over it doesnt necessarily mean the system is harder than the next one or the past one.

As to your second point, yes I agree, there is some upper hand of sorts to be gained when you have had the same coach and same system and same QB. Okay, Lelie has had the same offensive system for 3 years, although each year I believe every offensive staff tweaks their system after studying the teams that finished very high in offense to see what wrinkles they can add, so all offenses change to an extent. I still think for the most part the systems are more or less static but there are some changes with the new wrinkles each year. As I pointed out earlier, although some deeper routes may have been emphasized in 2003 for Oakland, I still think the same base system was used because I recognized alot of the play names when I saw that thing where they were wired. As to position coaches as I said, Lelie actually had his change from Dorrell to Watson while Porter has had Fred Biletnikoff the whole time. Porter has had more or less just Gannon and Collins. That's two. Gannon was a fine QB and Collins is a good QB at the deep balls although average in other respects. Lelie had Griese and Plummer, both QB who you have bashed and criticized.

[sirhcyennek81]

It has been said that it takes a WR 3 seasons to fully absorb shanahan's system. I would assume it would take a QB the same amount of time.

[baja]

It has been said that it takes a WR 3 seasons to fully absorb shanahan's system. I would assume it would take a QB the same amount of time.

That was the case with Elway

[Raider Bill]

The fact that they go over it alot may or may not mean that a particular system is complicated. I do not think it is that really since every team in the league prepares heavily. In the NFL, every staff works close to 100 hour work weeks and when they get a chance to work with the players on Wed, Thurs and Fri, naturally, you want to make your guys as prepared as possible for Sunday. Its pro football, Bill. This isnt like college ball where the NCAA mandates that coaches and players can interact for a maximum of 20 hours per week, i believe. Everyone in the league has meetings in the morning and then practices and then meetings again with film study. Everyone works hard whether the system is complicated or not. So the fact that they are going over it doesnt necessarily mean the system is harder than the next one or the past one.

As to your second point, yes I agree, there is some upper hand of sorts to be gained when you have had the same coach and same system and same QB. Okay, Lelie has had the same offensive system for 3 years, although each year I believe every offensive staff tweaks their system after studying the teams that finished very high in offense to see what wrinkles they can add, so all offenses change to an extent. I still think for the most part the systems are more or less static but there are some changes with the new wrinkles each year. As I pointed out earlier, although some deeper routes may have been emphasized in 2003 for Oakland, I still think the same base system was used because I recognized alot of the play names when I saw that thing where they were wired. As to position coaches as I said, Lelie actually had his change from Dorrell to Watson while Porter has had Fred Biletnikoff the whole time. Porter has had more or less just Gannon and Collins. That's two. Gannon was a fine QB and Collins is a good QB at the deep balls although average in other respects. Lelie had Griese and Plummer, both QB who you have bashed and criticized.

You conviently left out Marques Tuiasoppo, Rick Mirer, Rob Johnson, and Tee Martin

The position coaching doesnt really matter as much as continuity at qb and scheme IMO.

[Raider Bill]

Why would Lelei require more development time? He did play wide reciever in college. Porter played safety and quarterback!

[Raider Bill]

That whole YPC argument is garbage. It's penalizing Porter for actually making catches underneath, something that this article clearly states Lelie struggled with. Porter had 5 grabs of 40 plus yards also.

The 21 20+ yard grabs by Lelie is impressive however, but he was seeing a lot more single coverage and run fronts than Porter did and he still had 17 in that category.

[SoCalBronco]

Why would Lelei require more development time? He did play wide reciever in college. Porter played safety and quarterback!

I remember Porter at WR during his time at WVU, maybe im wrong though but I seem to remember it. Maybe I am getting him confused with Khory Ivy though.

[Raider Bill]

I think they stuck him out there at WR some his senior year because that's where NFL teams were projecting him

[Raider Bill]

I'm glad they didnt do that at NC with Ronald Curry.. there's no way he would have lasted to the 7th round!

[Raider Bill]

Oh well... good discussion SoCal.. as always... I gotta hit the sack, it's almost 3 am here!

[RhymesayersDU]

I think they stuck him out there at WR some his senior year because that's where NFL teams were projecting him
I don't know much about scouting and stuff... But why would people project him as a WR if he played QB and Safety?

I'm not saying it's not true or anything... but that just seems weird. I don't get how people (analysts, scouts, etc) can just say he should play another position.

[Hulamau]

If you had watched any of our games last year NjBIL you'd realize we almost never even tried to throw it to Lelie short. They used him almost exclusively for long balls and as a spread the field decoy.

For you to say that a guy with 54 catches that AVERAGES 20.1 ypc in the NFL is "garbage" is pretty humorous. What are you guys smoking in Joisey these days, Paraquat?

[SoCalBronco]

You conviently left out Marques Tuiasoppo, Rick Mirer, Rob Johnson, and Tee Martin

The position coaching doesnt really matter as much as continuity at qb and scheme IMO.

Well I already addressed scheme and we have gone back and forth on it several times. Unlikely we are going to agree there. As to QB, when did Porter have to deal with these guys on a week to week basis as the starter. Wasnt his rookie year 2001 or was it 2000? During Oakland's 3 year stretch as Division Champion from 2000-2002 wasnt Gannon pretty much the starter the whole time? And he was a fabulous QB during that time. It was only in 2003 when the scrubs were in there. And now he has Collins, who on the whole is probably average, middle of the pack.

With Lelie, most neutral NFL fans/observers would say that both Plummer and Griese are clearly inferior to the Rich Gannon from 2000-2002. And in fact, you have heavily criticized both. So like Porter, Lelie cant be said to have perfect continuity at the QB position and most fans would say that the guy who was with Porter the most of all his QBs was better than either of the Broncos QBs and im sure you would certainly agree with that as well.

[Odysseus]

His speed and height has gotten him by. I bet Randy Moss isn't all that strong.

I have a bag of laundry stronger than Randy Moss.

It's all about mechanics. If your frame doesn't support the additional weight without taking away from your speed why need it? Strength doesn't help your concentration, footwork, route running, or mental toughness. The parts are always less than the whole.

[footstepsfrom#27]

I didn't know bench pressing was a such dominant factor in grading a WR over another.
It is when you're getting jammed at the line by 200 pound corners. Also, Denver relies on WR downfield blocking to make the run go.
I keep harping on what June Jones said when we drafted Lelie, Jones said: After three years in the league he'll make everyone forget about all the other 2002 WR class.
Shannon Sharpe said Lelie had as much talent as any WR he'd seen in the NFL. He also said he needed to step up and develop his talent. It sounds hopeful that now he is. On Sharpe vs. Porter...different animals. Porter's a bigger more physical guy but not the deep threat Lelie is. I'm thinking Jerry Rice can have an impact on Lelie like he did in Jokeland with Porter.

[DBroncos4life]

Damn........

I didn't know bench pressing was a such dominant factor in grading a WR over another.


Yep thats why I have Boston ranked number one!!!

[fontaine]

It is when you're getting jammed at the line by 200 pound corners. Also, Denver relies on WR downfield blocking to make the run go.

Every team relies on their WR blocking well. It's part of the game. But it's pretty rare to have two great blocking WRs like Rod/Eddie on the same team.

Shanahan and Kubiak know Lelie's limitations and capabilities in the blocking game and have designed plays to account for that for the past two years. Yes, our running game could be a lot better with Lelie blocking like Eddie Mac but that's realistically that's not going to happen. Good O-coordinators find a way to maximize their plays and hide weakenesses like poor blocking.

[Raider Bill]

I don't know much about scouting and stuff... But why would people project him as a WR if he played QB and Safety?

I'm not saying it's not true or anything... but that just seems weird. I don't get how people (analysts, scouts, etc) can just say he should play another position.


NFL Draft: JERRY PORTER, Wide Receiver
West Virginia 6:02.2-215 Washington, D.C.

One of the finest athletes in college football...Jack-of-all-trades, seeing action as a defensive back, quarterback and receiver during his Mountaineer career...Has a great combination of size, speed and leaping ability...Shows excellent body control going for the ball over the middle...Gets good separation on his breaks and does a fine job setting up defenders with his fakes and explosive deep burst...Recently timed at 4.48 in the 40-yard dash.

1999 Season...All-Big East Conference selection as an all-purpose back by SportsPage.com...Saw action as a free safety in the first five games, filled in as an emergency quarterback vs. Rutgers and then finished the second half of the season as a flanker...Recorded 28 tackles (21 solos) with a 68-yard interception return for a touchdown and a pass deflection...Caused a fumble and had a stop for a 4-yard loss...Also blocked a kick...Fifth on the team with 15 receptions for 311 yards (20.7 avg) and four touchdowns...Gained 52 yards on six carries (8.7 avg)...Completed 3 of 6 passes (50.0%) for 20 yards...Also had a 16-yard kickoff return.
East Carolina...Opened the season with 5 tackles (4 solos), including one for a 4-yard loss.
Miami (Oh.)...Blocked a punt, returned an interception 68 yards for a touchdown and posted 8 tackles (5 solos).
Maryland...Made a hit on tailback LaMont Jordan, forcing a fumble and was in on 6 hits.
Syracuse...Had 5 tackles (3 solos) with a stop for a 2-yard loss.
Navy...Registered 9 tackles (7 solos) and deflected a pass.
Rutgers...Made a solo tackle, ran twice for 28 yards and threw an 8-yard pass to Quincy Wilson.
Temple...Caught 3 passes for 64 yards, including a 44 yarder that set up WVU’s game-winning score in a 20-17 decision.
Miami (Fla.)...Grabbed 5 passes for 75 yards, including a 43-yard touchdown on the game’s opening drive.
Virginia Tech...Followed with a 4-yard touchdown catch.
Boston College...Completed 2 of 4 passes for 12 yards, ran 3 times for 18 yards and had a 9-yard reception.
Pittsburgh...Closed out his career by hauling in 3 passes for 139 yards with touchdowns of 77 & 54 yards.


His senior year he played both WR and Safety. I don't know the exact circumstances why he got switched over to wideout, but I thought I read the coach was doing him a favor because NFL teams were looking at him as a WR>.

That's the only point I'm trying to make here with this scouting report, BTW.

[Raider Bill]

If you had watched any of our games last year NjBIL you'd realize we almost never even tried to throw it to Lelie short. They used him almost exclusively for long balls and as a spread the field decoy.

For you to say that a guy with 54 catches that AVERAGES 20.1 ypc in the NFL is "garbage" is pretty humorous. What are you guys smoking in Joisey these days, Paraquat?


That article clearly states Lelei and his lone bench press rep were getting owned underneath. The YPC argument penalizes Porter for actually going across the middle

Lelei had 5 grabs of over 40 yards, as did Porter
Lelie had 21 grabs of over 20 yards Porter had 17

Lelie had 7 TD's Porter had 9

Denver Put up almost 400 yards a game of offense, Oakland 322 but their respective yardage numbers are not that far apart.

[fontaine]

If you had watched any of our games last year NjBIL you'd realize we almost never even tried to throw it to Lelie short. They used him almost exclusively for long balls and as a spread the field decoy.


You're wrong. Lelie got very little separation in short routes and was consistently pushed around by CBs when he had to sell his routes and setup the CB in short to intermediate passes.

Lelie is a great deep threat, no doubt, but Porter is a more complete WR especially considering how he lined up against the defense's best CB and Lelie DID NOT.

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

For those of you who continue to whine about Lelie's "lack of production on the mid range and short routes", you need to remember that it its the coaches who call the routes, not the player.

[Mile High Shack]

For those of you who continue to whine about Lelie's "lack of production on the mid range and short routes", you need to remember that it its the coaches who call the routes, not the player.

and thus the coaches know his limitations :)

[footstepsfrom#27]

Every team relies on their WR blocking well. It's part of the game. But it's pretty rare to have two great blocking WRs like Rod/Eddie on the same team.

Shanahan and Kubiak know Lelie's limitations and capabilities in the blocking game and have designed plays to account for that for the past two years. Yes, our running game could be a lot better with Lelie blocking like Eddie Mac but that's realistically that's not going to happen. Good O-coordinators find a way to maximize their plays and hide weakenesses like poor blocking.
The Broncos running game is unlike any other in the NFL (save Atlanta's now) as we all know and they depend on their WR's for downfield blocking more than other teams. It's no coincidence TD goes for 2000+ with Eddie Mac and Rod in there. I agree that all OC's can design around flaws but that's not the point. The point is that Lelie has had some limitations due to his lack of physical strength, a fact you just admitted with the comment about him getting pushed around by CB's in the short zones. However, it appears that's about to change if what we're hearing about his weight room gains is true.

As for Porter, he is a more complete player at this point IMO, but the key phrase here is "at this point". I think Lelie has a considerably higher upside. He has elite speed, something Porter does not have. Porter also has a 2 year edge on Lelie in terms of experience 5-3, and both players took till their 3rd year to have breakout years. Porter has not gotten significantly better since his 3rd season, meaning he's probably peaked, so what he is now is what he'll continue to be till he eventually declines. Lelie on the other hand has considerable room for improvement and if it's true he's getting considerably stronger, that equates to a much more valuable receiver in the short/medium zones. Lelie as a medium range threat will force CB's to play him closer instead of backing way off. That's where I think we'll see his game explode. He's capable of 12-15 TD's a year if he's developing a short/medium range game to go with the deep stuff. Also, I think the 21 ypc figure is startling given the fact that Plummer does not throw a great deep ball. His arm is average and throwing on the run doesn't lend itself well to deep passes either. Porter's ypc jumped to 15+ last year, probably reflected by the fact he has Collins instead of Gannon throwing it. I don't see him extending it much beyond that. Lelie could develop an underneath game and probably still avg 18 ypc IMO. They're different types of receivers but I think based on age and upside, you gotta take Lelie. 6'3", 205 with 4.25 speed doesn't grow on trees. Lelie has the capability of developing the underneath game Porter already has. Porter does not have the ability to develop the deep game Lelie has. If Lelie can post 50+ catches and 1100 yards without legitimate NFL strength numbers and hence no short/medium game, it stands to reason a major jump in that department equates to significantly higher production. Avoiding injury, I see no reason with the aging of Rod Smith, that Lelie can't become the #1 guy this year or next. 80-100 catches and 1500 yards/12-15 TD's are obtainable goals for him. Porter will never approach that.

[Atlas]

I can't believe all the Lelie bashing going on here. He had over 1000 yards recieving last year with 7 TDs and a 20 yard average. Christ don't you guys think he is going to get any better? What has he peaked after just 3 years? Of course not he'll get better and better. His whole game will develop more this year. Everyone wanted to cut his ass last preseason then he has a great year but it's not good enough?

Reed would have been a good choice too but how can anyone be unhappy with the way Lelie has turned out. He was the only playmaker the Offense had last year.

[baja]

I have a bag of laundry stronger than Randy Moss.

It's all about mechanics. If your frame doesn't support the additional weight without taking away from your speed why need it? Strength doesn't help your concentration, footwork, route running, or mental toughness. The parts are always less than the whole.

If you play wide receiver for Denver you have to block thus the need for strength

[Raider Bill]

Looking at Porters stats independent of his situation and automaticaly assuming that he's peaked is flawed, for the reasons I outlined above.

[fontaine]

For those of you who continue to whine about Lelie's "lack of production on the mid range and short routes", you need to remember that it its the coaches who call the routes, not the player.

WTF?

So I suppose the coaches just woke up one day last year and decided to let a rookie in Watts run short/intermediate routes instead of an established WR in Lelie?

I can't believe the amount of posters here that treat Lelie as if he's an elite or unquestionable talent who is above criticism. I'm not bashing him. I'm just pointing out the other side to Lelie great deep game which is his lack of functional strength and execution in the short game/blocking.

That's something Lelie and the coaches have admitted to. I'm not saying Lelie can't do it, I'm saying so far he hasn't done it. Until Lelie improves on his all around game, he's just going to be a one dimensional WR. No amount of spin, homering, or Lelie love is going to change that.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Looking at Porters stats independent of his situation and automaticaly assuming that he's peaked is flawed, for the reasons I outlined above.
You don't need stats to prove Porter has reached his potential. Five years in the NFL is enough time to fully develop. Porter has peaked. His talent is nice, but not top shelf all-pro capable. As we're seeing, Lelile has considerable room for further development. Will he improve? It remains to be seen, but major jumps in his strength would seem to be a large step in that direction, coupled with an attitude adjustment as well. We'll soon see if it translates to on-field production or not.
I can't believe the amount of posters here that treat Lelie as if he's an elite or unquestionable talent who is above criticism.
He is an elite talent, but he's definitely not above criticism. It's justifiable based not on what he's done, but what he COULD do if he's maxing his ability. I keep pointing out that it appears based on what we're now seeing in these reports, that he may be poised to do just that.

[Odysseus]

If you play wide receiver for Denver you have to block thus the need for strength

Shannon Sharpe had strength but he still had to learn how to block. The guy can't block because he can't block not because he isn't built like a linebacker.

I lifted more than this guy when I was 14 and that doesn't qualify me to be an NFL WR. It's too bad I didn't learn long snapping.

[Odysseus]

I like Lelie a lot but Fontaine is still right. It's not bashing on Lelie saying he's skinny. It's not bashing on the Lelie saying Jerry Porter is larger and more versatile. I personally get a kick out of beating a "better" team. It happens every week during football season. I think the Broncos had a miraculous season last year given all the obstacles they had and there is nothing wrong with 10-6...just don't do it again.

[Raider Bill]

It's not bashing on the Lelie saying Jerry Porter is larger and more versatile

Thank You! Incidently, I'm never said Lelie couldnt become more versatile, reading that article it sounds like he's working hard at it. But he ain't there yet.

And calling me a homer is a bit of a laugher since I've been banned from Raiderfans.net and get bashed non stop at KFFL for merely suggesting that perhaps Oakland would have been better served not obtaining Moss! That's not a real popular position to take as you can imagine

[fontaine]

I like Lelie a lot but Fontaine is still right. It's not bashing on Lelie saying he's skinny. It's not bashing on the Lelie saying Jerry Porter is larger and more versatile. I personally get a kick out of beating a "better" team. It happens every week during football season. I think the Broncos had a miraculous season last year given all the obstacles they had and there is nothing wrong with 10-6...just don't do it again.


True. Give me on the field performance any day over tons of potential. Lelie can have all the potential in the world but that's not going to stop CBs from jamming him up. I wish all the perennial talk of "Lelie's all world potential" would turn into Lelie getting it done on the field.

Lelie can get away with being one dimensional because we still have the ever consistant professional in Rod to do the hard work every down. If he were to ever go down with injury can you imagine how Lelie would do? He'd get routinely shut down when CBs would focus on him. Until Lelie can prove to be more than just a complimentary deep threat he's just another average WR to me.

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

and thus the coaches know his limitations :)

No that is does not necessarily mean he is defficient in those areas. It just means that the play design is such that he is assigned different routes than those of the other receivers on the field. Any good play design will try to spread the defenders.

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

WTF?

So I suppose the coaches just woke up one day last year and decided to let a rookie in Watts run short/intermediate routes instead of an established WR in Lelie?

I can't believe the amount of posters here that treat Lelie as if he's an elite or unquestionable talent who is above criticism. I'm not bashing him. I'm just pointing out the other side to Lelie great deep game which is his lack of functional strength and execution in the short game/blocking.

That's something Lelie and the coaches have admitted to. I'm not saying Lelie can't do it, I'm saying so far he hasn't done it. Until Lelie improves on his all around game, he's just going to be a one dimensional WR. No amount of spin, homering, or Lelie love is going to change that.

And I am just saying that the coaches have decided the routes that the offense runs and Lelie is normally assigned to run the routes that stretch the field and draw the defenders out of the shorter zones. It is the coaches decisions that he does not run the intermediate and short routes. It is not Lelie's choice.

[fontaine]

And I am just saying that the coaches have decided the routes that the offense runs and Lelie is normally assigned to run the routes that stretch the field and draw the defenders out of the shorter zones. It is the coaches decisions that he does not run the intermediate and short routes. It is not Lelie's choice.

So the coaches decided to have an awful red zone offense by taking Lelie out of effective red zone routes right? It has nothing to do with the fact that he's caught only 1 TD pass in the red zone the past two years. The coaches actually prefer Lelie not have red zone TDs right?

The excuses just keep on rolling for this guy.

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

So the coaches decided to have an awful red zone offense by taking Lelie out of effective red zone routes right? It has nothing to do with the fact that he's caught only 1 TD pass in the red zone the past two years. The coaches actually prefer Lelie not have red zone TDs right?

The excuses just keep on rolling for this guy.

All I am saying is that he runs the routes he is assigned. If he wasn't he would be cut.

[Mediator12]

All I am saying is that he runs the routes he is assigned. If he wasn't he would be cut.

The point Being Lelie is not good off the jam, unable to sell short and intermediate routes, and his blocking is deficient to say the least. Those are his weaknesses. Any coaching staff worth a darn is not going to put a player in a situation to Fail repeatedly. So they play to his strengths.

He does a great job catching poorly thrown balls and consistantly getting behind defenders. So that is his role. He has admitted himself that he was abused physically in the Red Zone and underneath.

Porter is a more all around receiver at this point. The argument will not be finished until they both hang it up though.

BTW, He has ZERO TD's in the REDZONE the last two year's fontaine. That is totally unacceptable even for a #2 WR.

[Mile High Shack]

The point Being Lelie is not good off the jam, unable to sell short and intermediate routes, and his blocking is deficient to say the least. Those are his weaknesses. Any coaching staff worth a darn is not going to put a player in a situation to Fail repeatedly. So they play to his strengths.

He does a great job catching poorly thrown balls and consistantly getting behind defenders. So that is his role. He has admitted himself that he was abused physically in the Red Zone and underneath.

Porter is a more all around receiver at this point. The argument will not be finished until they both hang it up though.

BTW, He has ZERO TD's in the REDZONE the last two year's fontaine. That is totally unacceptable even for a #2 WR.
I think this sums it up for the Lelie lovers…….

No one hear hates Lelie, we just want him to blossom more and become complete…not just a fly pattern receiver. You don’t use a #1 pick on a WR to run fly patterns. Even Moss runs underneath stuff…and he’s a pussy

In order for Lelie to succeed, he must start blocking and running underneath as well.

and Zero TDs in the red zone is a joke

[Macnut]

I think this sums it up for the Lelie lovers…….

No one hear hates Lelie, we just want him to blossom more and become complete…not just a fly pattern receiver. You don’t use a #1 pick on a WR to run fly patterns. Even Moss runs underneath stuff…and he’s a p***Y

In order for Lelie to succeed, he must start blocking and running underneath as well.

and Zero TDs in the red zone is a joke
How many times were he in the offense when they were in the red zone? Very few! Then how many times did they call his number in the red zone? 0 How many drops did he have? 0
Does Lelie decide if he goes in and or doesn't? Does he call his own number in the huddle? How asinine are those that make those comments! :hitself:
Truth is he could do well every friggin game and his critics will find some bs to bring up.

[SoCalBronco]

Thank You! Incidently, I'm never said Lelie couldnt become more versatile, reading that article it sounds like he's working hard at it. But he ain't there yet.

And calling me a homer is a bit of a laugher since I've been banned from Raiderfans.net and get bashed non stop at KFFL for merely suggesting that perhaps Oakland would have been better served not obtaining Moss! That's not a real popular position to take as you can imagine

Your still a homer, Bill. ;D

[Mediator12]

How many times were he in the offense when they were in the red zone? Very few! Then how many times did they call his number in the red zone? 0 How many drops did he have? 0
Does Lelie decide if he goes in and or doesn't? Does he call his own number in the huddle? How asinine are those that make those comments! :hitself:
Truth is he could do well every friggin game and his critics will find some bs to bring up.

Name one other #2 WR in the league with ZERO Red Zone TD's in the last two years. Name who was in on the redzone plays you say he never had instead of Lelie (Hint: U=YOUR WRONG). Goalline Maybe, but he was there when there were two WR's in the SET. He had two drops in the Redzone last year not zero. They threw the ball his way 12 times in the redzone last year and he had ONE CATCH.

If you are going to argue, use facts not your emotions thwack

[DB-Freak]

Lelie nut suckers are the most annoying kinds of homers around here without a doubt.

(Aside from Socal Of course.)

SO MANY DAMN EXCUSES!

[SoCalBronco]

Lelie nut suckers are the most annoying kinds of homers around here without a doubt.

(Aside from Socal Of course.)

SO MANY DAMN EXCUSES!

Ash rocks! LOL

[watermock]

To say they didn't try to get to Lelie in the redzone is absurd. The problem was he was running fly patterns to the south stands. If they would of used more buttonhooks, they would of done a ton better. You don't run fly patterns inside the 20, but Pubiak insisted on it. Again and again, we would try to hit Lelie deep in what was a short field, with a spread offense. You don't run a spread offense inside the 20, and you keep your same team in there that drove you down the field. The redzone playcalling was so idiotic it defied description. You don't have to agree with me, the stats speak for themselves.

[DBroncos4life]

Lelie nut suckers are the most annoying kinds of homers around here without a doubt.

(Aside from Socal Of course.)

SO MANY DAMN EXCUSES!



Coming from someone that has Claretts @#$! in his mouth 24/7 I find that to be really funny.

[DB-Freak]

Name one other #2 WR in the league with ZERO Red Zone TD's in the last two years. Name who was in on the redzone plays you say he never had instead of Lelie (Hint: U=YOUR WRONG). Goalline Maybe, but he was there when there were two WR's in the SET. He had two drops in the Redzone last year not zero. They threw the ball his way 12 times in the redzone last year and he had ONE CATCH.

If you are going to argue, use facts not your emotions thwack
In their eyes, Ash can do no wrong. They give so many excuses and questionable opinions and observations.

"If Plummer had thrown the ball 1/3 inch more to the right and 1 inch above of his jersey number and descending in 45 degrees, Ash definitely would have caught it."

"Although he gets abused at the line and admittedly isn't good at short and intermediate routes, it's all plummer's fault he can't perform there."

"Although almost every deep ball needs alittle adjustment by the WR to catch it, Plummer should have thrown perfectly into Ash's hands while Ash just runs in a straight line and with his arms extended.

"The reason he couldn't get open was that Plummer didnt use the force to hinder the cornerbacks.

[DB-Freak]

Coming from someone that has Claretts @#$! in his mouth 24/7 I find that to be really funny.

Wrong.

As a huge fan of Clarett, I don't try to give unreasonable and questionable excuses like some fans here.

[DBroncos4life]

In their eyes, Ash can do no wrong. They give so many excuses and questionable opinions and observations.

"If Plummer had thrown the ball 1/3 inch more to the right and 1 inch above of his jersey number and descending in 45 degrees, Ash definitely would have caught it."

"Although he gets abused at the line and admittedly isn't good at short and intermediate routes, it's all plummer's fault he can't perform there."

"Although almost every deep ball needs alittle adjustment by the WR to catch it, Plummer should have thrown perfectly into Ash's hands while Ash just runs in a straight line and with his arms extended.

"The reason he couldn't get open was that Plummer didnt use the force to hinder the cornerbacks.



Lelie had his man beat many many times by more then two step only to have the defender run into him while he was trying to catch it. Maybe thats why he had 6 PI calls in as many games. Lelie could and should be doing more but Plummer under throwing him isn't helping at all.

[DB-Freak]

Lelie had his man beat many many times by more then two step only to have the defender run into him while he was trying to catch it. Maybe thats why he had 6 PI calls in as many games. Lelie could and should be doing more but Plummer under throwing him isn't helping at all.
Sorry, but I just can't respond to that post.

I somewhat disagree, but it's not like I can bring up anything substantial and concrete to the table to dispel it.

And for some reason, I feel as if I have responded to that post a million times before. What a surprise.

[watermock]

It's very true that Plummer has either over or underthrown Lelie on deep routes. One big catch he was 10 yards behind the coverage, only to have to wait and come back to the ball.

[DBroncos4life]

Sorry, but I just can't respond to that post.

I somewhat disagree, but it's not like I can bring up anything substantial and concrete to the table to dispel it.

And for some reason, I feel as if I have responded to that post a million times before. What a surprise.


Well because its true thats why you can't dispel it.


Some random observations ... on the Broncos' wideout Ashley Lelie, for instance: "It isn't a stretch to say that Lelie was possibly the most dangerous deep threat in the NFL last season. He had the second most deep passes thrown to him, and ranked 20th in deep pass completion percentage (42 percent). He only faced tight/good coverage 24 percent of the time on deep passes, ranking him 11th in the league, and was open by two or more steps on deep passes 11 percent of the time. His success on deep routes made his overall yards per attempt the seventh highest in the league.

"It's a damn good thing Lelie was good at deep passes because he frankly stunk at the other depth levels."

Or on consensus All-Pro cornerback Champ Bailey: "Bailey was 79th in deep yards (first being the fewest), tied for 73rd in deep completion percentage, tied for 16th most in deep attempts, tied for 69th in deep TDs ... Bailey wasn't just beaten deep; he was targeted for deep passes quite frequently."


The fact is Lelie got open a lot and we couldn't hit in stride. Call me a homer all you want too thats fine but I do remember him getting ran into because he had to stop and wait for the ball.

[Raider Bill]

Your still a homer, Bill. ;D


I wont even dignify that with a response, but I will compliment you're good memory regarding Porter


Miami (Fla.)...Grabbed 5 passes for 75 yards, including a 43-yard touchdown on the game’s opening drive. 8')

[Macnut]

"Although almost every deep ball needs alittle adjustment by the WR to catch it, Plummer should have thrown perfectly into Ash's hands while Ash just runs in a straight line and with his arms extended.


Your right! Ash keep having to dive for most of his catches. Hows that for adjustments?

[SoCalBronco]

I wont even dignify that with a response, but I will compliment you're good memory regarding Porter


8')

Thankfully we still won that game. I think that was the game when The Rock showed up and did some good recruiting for us in front of the crowd at the half.

[Macnut]

Coming from someone that has Claretts @#$! in his mouth 24/7 I find that to be really funny.

Hilarious!

[Hulamau]

True. Give me on the field performance any day over tons of potential. Lelie can have all the potential in the world but that's not going to stop CBs from jamming him up. I wish all the perennial talk of "Lelie's all world potential" would turn into Lelie getting it done on the field.

Lelie can get away with being one dimensional because we still have the ever consistant professional in Rod to do the hard work every down. If he were to ever go down with injury can you imagine how Lelie would do? He'd get routinely shut down when CBs would focus on him. Until Lelie can prove to be more than just a complimentary deep threat he's just another average WR to me.


I remember last year when so many Lelie haters on this board were almost gleefully licking their chops ( as they've done since he was drafted) with predictions he'd fall flat on his face last year and Denver could then go get a 'real' WR in this spring's draft.

I didnt hear too much from those guys by seasons end. Lets see if he makes you eat similar words again this year. Hopefully, he will!

And Fontaine, while its true he very much needs to bulk up and work on his short game off the LOS, its equally true that very few short to intermediate plays were run with him at the top of the check down. Some of that was his lack of developement, to be sure, but a lot of it was also from the lack of Plummer and coaches calling his number as well. As I recall , Plummer's greatest strength last year wasn't checking down to alternate receivers, and Rod being #1 rightly got the vast majority of the short to mid balls.

If Lelie is going to get a chance to be compared fairly to Porter, we're going to have to give him the chance and the responsibility to pony up and prove that he's a well round WR now. My money says that by years end thats precisely what will happen.

He's never going to be a smash mouth over the middle guy and Porter will always have the edge there, but with an improved short game and the teams trust to play him in all phases of the receiving game plan, I think you'll all see why a lot of us who have followed his career all along have held such high hopes for him.

I always knew it was going to take him ta couple of years to get up to speed. Its up to him now and this is the perfect year for him to put it all together.

And NJBil, just think if we were talking about Porter last year at this time (which is on par with Lelie's time in the league now). Porter was a # 2 moving to #1 at this time last year coming off an injury plaqued 3rd year, if I remember correctly (or was that his second year he that was busted up a lot?).

This year should be a better comparison between the two, even though Porter has a year of experience on Lelie, since both will be the #2 WR for their respective teams, while Porter was #1 last year and had far more balls thrown his way as a result.

[footstepsfrom#27]

In their eyes, Ash can do no wrong. They give so many excuses and questionable opinions and observations.

"If Plummer had thrown the ball 1/3 inch more to the right and 1 inch above of his jersey number and descending in 45 degrees, Ash definitely would have caught it."

"Although he gets abused at the line and admittedly isn't good at short and intermediate routes, it's all plummer's fault he can't perform there."

"Although almost every deep ball needs alittle adjustment by the WR to catch it, Plummer should have thrown perfectly into Ash's hands while Ash just runs in a straight line and with his arms extended.

"The reason he couldn't get open was that Plummer didnt use the force to hinder the cornerbacks.

OK...perhaps a little balance is needed here. The truth about Ashley Lelie lies somewhere in the middle of the polar extremes in viewpoint expressed in here. He's not a bust or even a dissapointment at this point, but neither is he as developed as he could be, and probably will be. Forget for a moment all the stuff about blocking, versitility etc...and just look at pure production. That's the easiest way to measure what's going on.

Just for grins I checked to see how some other pretty sucessful NFL receivers fared in their early careers in terms of raw production. These are all current guys playing in the modern pass happy NFL except for one recognizable exception. Using a 1000 yard season as a basic standard of measurement for achievement, I checked to see how Lelie compares in his development, basically taking until his third year to go over the 1000 yard mark. There are a few phenoms like Jerry Rice, Moss, Tampa Bay's Michael Clayton...who started hot their rookie year and hit the mark immediately but that's far from the normal career trajectory. This is pretty interesting stuff when you look at how long it took some of these guys.

Tim Brown took 6 years before he gained over 1000 yards in a season. So did Keenan McCardell. Art Monk, Derrick Mason, Jimmy Smith and Joe Horn took 5 years to do it. Michael Irvin, Marvin Harrison, Hines Ward, Amani Toomer, Reggie Wayne and Rod Smith took 4 years before any of them truly broke out and went over a thousand yards. Like Ashley Lelie, Terrell Owens, Keyshawn Johnson, Jevon Walker, Laveranues Coles, Eric Moulds and Denver's current WR coach Steve Watson did it in their 3rd year. Issac Bruce and Tory Holt went over 1000 their 2nd year, as did Cincinatti's Chad Johnson and Houston's Andre Johnson.

There's good reason to believe Lelie will continue to improve, and little reason to consider him a failure at this point. He has some things to work on but so did a lot of other great receivers at this point in their careers. I don't think that's homerism. It's just a reality born out by the record. I do think he could have probably advanced faster than he has but it looks like he's got his head in the game now, which is what I really care about at this point anyway.

[SoCalBronco]

Great post, Hulamau. I enjoyed how all the Lelie haters got their asses handed to them last year. Im looking for more of the same this year. Rep.

[SoCalBronco]

OK...perhaps a little balance is needed here. The truth about Ashley Lelie lies somewhere in the middle of the polar extremes in viewpoint expressed in here. He's not a bust or even a dissapointment at this point, but neither is he as developed as he could be, and probably will be. Forget for a moment all the stuff about blocking, versitility etc...and just look at pure production. That's the easiest way to measure what's going on.

Just for grins I checked to see how some other pretty sucessful NFL receivers fared in their early careers in terms of raw production. These are all current guys playing in the modern pass happy NFL except for one recognizable exception. Using a 1000 yard season as a basic standard of measurement for achievement, I checked to see how Lelie compares in his development, basically taking until his third year to go over the 1000 yard mark. There are a few phenoms like Jerry Rice, Moss, Tampa Bay's Michael Clayton...who started hot their rookie year and hit the mark immediately but that's far from the normal career trajectory. This is pretty interesting stuff when you look at how long it took some of these guys.

Tim Brown took 6 years before he gained over 1000 yards in a season. So did Keenan McCardell. Art Monk, Derrick Mason, Jimmy Smith and Joe Horn took 5 years to do it. Michael Irvin, Marvin Harrison, Hines Ward, Amani Toomer, Reggie Wayne and Rod Smith took 4 years before any of them truly broke out and went over a thousand yards. Like Ashley Lelie, Terrell Owens, Keyshawn Johnson, Jevon Walker, Laveranues Coles, Eric Moulds and Denver's current WR coach Steve Watson did it in their 3rd year. Issac Bruce and Tory Holt went over 1000 their 2nd year, as did Cincinatti's Chad Johnson and Houston's Andre Johnson.

There's good reason to believe Lelie will continue to improve, and little reason to consider him a failure at this point. He has some things to work on but so did a lot of other great receivers at this point in their careers. I don't think that's homerism. It's just a reality born out by the record. I do think he could have probably advanced faster than he has but it looks like he's got his head in the game now, which is what I really care about at this point anyway.

Very good post here as well. Rep.

[Hulamau]

Well because its true thats why you can't dispel it.


Some random observations ... on the Broncos' wideout Ashley Lelie, for instance: "It isn't a stretch to say that Lelie was possibly the most dangerous deep threat in the NFL last season. He had the second most deep passes thrown to him, and ranked 20th in deep pass completion percentage (42 percent). He only faced tight/good coverage 24 percent of the time on deep passes, ranking him 11th in the league, and was open by two or more steps on deep passes 11 percent of the time. His success on deep routes made his overall yards per attempt the seventh highest in the league.

"It's a damn good thing Lelie was good at deep passes because he frankly stunk at the other depth levels."

Or on consensus All-Pro cornerback Champ Bailey: "Bailey was 79th in deep yards (first being the fewest), tied for 73rd in deep completion percentage, tied for 16th most in deep attempts, tied for 69th in deep TDs ... Bailey wasn't just beaten deep; he was targeted for deep passes quite frequently."


The fact is Lelie got open a lot and we couldn't hit in stride. Call me a homer all you want too thats fine but I do remember him getting ran into because he had to stop and wait for the ball.


You are right on the money DB4L, and I have the TIVO evidence from all but two games from last year to prove it too. He had to stop from wide open mid stride deep routes and come back for more wounded ducks than a hunter on the Outdoor Life Channel!

And his ranking on YPC averaged over 54 catches is a lot more impressive when you subtract out of the stats all the 4th and 5th string WR around the league who only caught 15 or less total passes.

[Hulamau]

Really good post Footstep #27.

We all (check that ... at least some of us) would have loved it if he had been all world by his first or second year. If he stays healthy, I suspect he'll be able to pretty much name his dollar and we are going to have a tough time affording him in two years when its time for him to re-up.

[Hulamau]

In their eyes, Ash can do no wrong. They give so many excuses and questionable opinions and observations.

"If Plummer had thrown the ball 1/3 inch more to the right and 1 inch above of his jersey number and descending in 45 degrees, Ash definitely would have caught it."

"Although he gets abused at the line and admittedly isn't good at short and intermediate routes, it's all plummer's fault he can't perform there."

"Although almost every deep ball needs alittle adjustment by the WR to catch it, Plummer should have thrown perfectly into Ash's hands while Ash just runs in a straight line and with his arms extended.

"The reason he couldn't get open was that Plummer didnt use the force to hinder the cornerbacks.


Jesus! Talk about exaggerations!! I havent heard such swill from the most rabid anti-Bronco Oakland and KC fans here.

Man, for a supposed Bronco fan, you've got a serious Lelie hate Jones goin'.

All of us here who have supported Lelie have consistently acknowledged in almost every post in which we highlight his skills and positive qualities, that he also has a ways to go, and have predicted all along that it would take him longer than a guy from a top-tier school to bust out.

Like many here, I too get pissed as hell at Plummer when he has the all too frequent mind fart during decision time, or lofts flutter balls on deep routes, and I get ticked at Lelie when he drops one he should have caught (a far less frequent occurrance last year than previously, which I would have thought would be a good sign for all Bronco fans), but I wake up everyday wishing Plummer the very best and praying that he'll find a way to put it all together the very next week.

I'm excited for Plummer this year as well, and trust this is the year he moves from a very talented, but maddeningly inconsistent QB to finally gelling all the way after 8 years, and busts out along with the rest of the team.

However, anytime the subject of Lelie comes around and any of us says anything nice about the guy, I get the distinct feeling you've got a serious hate issue with him (or is it mainly with those of us who support the guy), either way it's a bit odd with the moniker of 'DB-Freak'.

Nevertheless, may the force be with you, and hopefully both Plummer and Lelie will be sipping Mai Tais at the Pro Bowl come the first Sunday in Feb, a week after they've hoisted the Lombardi Trophy!

[watermock]

Didn't you hear? All 32 teams will get Lombardi's and everyone gets a ring, and a cookie with milk, it's the new "Touchy Feely NFL" where everyone just has fun and everyone is a winner.

[Hulamau]

Didn't you hear? All 32 teams will get Lombardi's and everyone gets a ring, and a cookie with milk, it's the new "Touchy Feely NFL" where everyone just has fun and everyone is a winner.


This year its time for Blue and ORange.

[fontaine]

Jesus! Talk about exaggerations!! I havent heard such swill from the most rabid anti-Bronco Oakland and KC fans here.

Man, for a supposed Bronco fan, you've got a serious Lelie hate Jones goin'. No doubt, the ultimate Lelie hater on the board.

All of us here who have supported Lelie have consistently acknowledged in almost every post in which we highlight his skills and positive qualities, that he also has a ways to go, and have predicted all along that it would take him longer than a guy from a top-tier school to bust out.

Like many here, I too get pissed as hell at Plummer when he has the all too frequent mind fart during decision time, or lofts flutter balls on deep routes, and I get ticked at Lelie when he drops one he should have caught (a far less frequent occurrance last year than previously, which I would have thought would be a good sign for all Bronco fans), but I wake up everyday wishing Plummer the very best and praying that he'll find a way to put it all together the very next week.

I'm excited for Plummer this year as well, and trust this is the year he moves from a very talented, but maddeningly inconsistent QB to finally gelling all the way after 8 years, and busts out along with the rest of the team.

However, anytime the subject of Lelie comes around and any of us says anything nice about the guy, I get the distinct feeling you've got a serious hate issue with him, which frankly is a bit odd with the moniker you carry of 'DB-Freak'.

Nevertheless, may the force be with you, and hopefully both Plummer and Lelie will be sipping Mai Tais at the Pro Bowl come the first Sunday in Feb, a week after they've hoisted the Lombardi Trophy!

I don't think anyone here genuinely hates Lelie. It's more to do with the fact that he gets a lot of hype when his game isn't all there. Just because people point out his deficiencies it doesn't mean they are lelie haters.

It would be tremendous if he did go out and become a more well rounded WR. I'm rooting for him to succeed and I do think he will get there although it might take a couple more seasons.

[Hulamau]

Fontaine,
Thats a perfectly reasonable statement, unlike the one I was responding too.
I have no problem with honest critique of any player, but putting wildly exaggerated words in the mouths of Lelie supporters and constantly knocking a player that is making steady improvements on one's own team strikes me as a little strange.

Every player is fair game when they underperform, but when a guy like Lelie who has come to every workout and, by any definition, is steadily improving becomes the constant and irrational foil of some of our own fans, its a bit odd.

Freak gets ticked off with me because I've ragged on Plummer a few times after some of his bigger bonehead plays last year, and Plummer is one of his boys. But I was very glad when we got Plummer and have given him his props too when he has a good game, and expect him to be even better this year.

Anyway, its no big deal. I suspect if Lelie had 25 TD and 2,400 yards this year a few on this board would still rag him.

[fontaine]

Fontaine,
Thats a perfectly reasonable statement, unlike the one I was responding too.
I have no problem with honest critique of any player, but putting wildly exaggerated words in the mouths of Lelie supporters and constantly knocking a player that is making steady improvements on one's own team strikes me as a little strange.

Every player is fair game when they underperform, but when a guy like Lelie who has come to every workout and, by any definition, is steadily improving becomes the constant and irrational foil of some of our own fans, its a bit odd.

Freak gets ticked off with me because I've ragged on Plummer a few times after some of his bigger bonehead plays last year, and Plummer is one of his boys. But I was very glad when we got Plummer and have given him his props too when he has a good game, and expect him to be even better this year.

Anyway, its no big deal. I suspect if Lelie had 25 TD and 2,400 yards this year a few on this board would still rag him.


You're right, Lelie does put in a lot of good work and has done everything off the field the team has asked. He is a professional and has the right attitude and is willing to do the hard work.

As for 25TDs, and 2,400 yards? That would be amazing but I'd settle for Lelie to be a more reliable target. All I'm saying is that he has to be a WR the team can count on being open when they need him to be. 3/4 passes a game are ok but he needs to be the kind of player that the coaches can design plays around and know that 10/15 times a game he's going to get open when they look for him to be the primary read rather than Lelie being just the primary read on a few long balls while he's used as a decoy the rest of the time. I'm hard on him because I know he's got the talent to do it, he just needs to translate it into the football field.

[watermock]

IMO, the team will have to get another physical WR. Lelie will never really be one, altho I think he will continue to get stronger, if we can keep him, and Watts, well, he's a freaking twig with stone hands. Getting seperation is great, but if your going to drop the ball, so what?

Mooch seems to have a fairly formidable trio of recievers if they can get healthy. Let's see, BMW, Rodgers and Roy Williams. I imagine Rodgers is drinking his moo juice ect...

[-Slap-]

Anyway, its no big deal. I suspect if Lelie had 25 TD and 2,400 yards this year a few on this board would still rag him.
Whenever someone on this board defends a particular player, at some point in the argument, they will suggest some people care nothing about production and its merely some evil plot against their boy.

Horsefeathers!

Believe me, if the old Ian Gold died in Tampa Bay and has been born again hard in Denver this summer, I'll be praising him like everyone else. :notworthy Nothing would make me happier than to see the guy come out and play like Wilbur Marshall this year.

Every Lelie "hater" wants to see him turn into the next Lynn Swann, too.

Bradlee and Maurice have built up much bad karma in certain circles, but elevating their games will elevate them above most criticism as well. Its just the way it works.

[-Slap-]

I guess I do find it funny to see how different people evaluate different players, though. I think back to the Lakers glory years during the 80s. Many outside observers remember Byron Scott as a nice complementary piece to those championship teams. Most die hard Laker fans remember a guy who completely disappeared in the clutch consistently throughout his career. I still use Scott as a litmus test to judge Laker fans from that era. If you thought he was great, I can safely assume you either, didn't watch the games, or you don't know what you were looking at. It was hilarious when Scott drifted to Indiana. He made a shot to win a playoff game (after missing dozens of big shots for the Lakers over the years) and the announcers were kissing his ass like he was this venerable old star who made plays like that his whole career.

[Mediator12]

I guess I do find it funny to see how different people evaluate different players, though. I think back to the Lakers glory years during the 80s. Many outside observers remember Byron Scott as a nice complementary piece to those championship teams. Most die hard Laker fans remember a guy who completely disappeared in the clutch consistently throughout his career. I still use Scott as a litmus test to judge Laker fans from that era. If you thought he was great, I can safely assume you either, didn't watch the games, or you don't know what you were looking at. It was hilarious when Scott drifted to Indiana. He made a shot to win a playoff game (after missing dozens of big shots for the Lakers over the years) and the announcers were kissing his ass like he was this venerable old star who made plays like that his whole career.

That is so true about Scott! I loved watching him play the wing but he sucked in the clutch unlike Robert Horry who may be the Best Clutch Shooter in the game now that Reggie Miller is gone. I got to meet him a couple of times when he was with the Pacers great Guy, not good in the clutch.

[Mediator12]

OK. First of all, all the name calling of hater and Supporter is just that. Three year olds are able to start calling each other names when they can not think of a good argument.

Second, Every player has Strengths AND Weaknesses. The fact that some people can not grasp that fact about a player renders their arguments full of Bias and delusion based on Emotion. If you can not evaluate both player's Strengths and Weaknesses its a good sign you are talking from the heart and not from facts or rational observations.

Third, Lelie, like every player, has some excellent qualities and some not so good.

The Good: Speed, Size(Height), Great Hands, Ability to adjust to poorly thrown Balls.

The Bad: No Mental Toughness, Strength, Agility, Blocking

Every player strives to make their Physical deficiencies better every off season in hopes of becoming better. However, the great Players get better mentally from year to year. That is why Veterans can have days off in Camp. They have already taken enough Mental Reps through their Careers and need few Physical ones to stay as sharp.

That being Said, I can not stand mental weakness in Superbly talented players like Lelie. The Kid has every tool to succeed except the Attitude on the Field. There is no excuse to play unless you want to beat the guy next to you on EVERY PLAY. I keep waiting for the Light to go off like the Article that started this thread says it may have donned on him. I will continue to support him as a Bronco. But when you talk to Coaches and they tell you the kid is "SOFT" that is the worst label in Football. That is the nice way of saying "WUSS".

[Spider]

7 pages about lelie .... I wont read em all , but Lelie had some rough times last season , but thats part of growing ....

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

OK. First of all, all the name calling of hater and Supporter is just that. Three year olds are able to start calling each other names when they can not think of a good argument.

Second, Every player has Strengths AND Weaknesses. The fact that some people can not grasp that fact about a player renders their arguments full of Bias and delusion based on Emotion. If you can not evaluate both player's Strengths and Weaknesses its a good sign you are talking from the heart and not from facts or rational observations.

Third, Lelie, like every player, has some excellent qualities and some not so good.

The Good: Speed, Size(Height), Great Hands, Ability to adjust to poorly thrown Balls.

The Bad: No Mental Toughness, Strength, Agility, Blocking

Every player strives to make their Physical deficiencies better every off season in hopes of becoming better. However, the great Players get better mentally from year to year. That is why Veterans can have days off in Camp. They have already taken enough Mental Reps through their Careers and need few Physical ones to stay as sharp.

That being Said, I can not stand mental weakness in Superbly talented players like Lelie. The Kid has every tool to succeed except the Attitude on the Field. There is no excuse to play unless you want to beat the guy next to you on EVERY PLAY. I keep waiting for the Light to go off like the Article that started this thread says it may have donned on him. I will continue to support him as a Bronco. But when you talk to Coaches and they tell you the kid is "SOFT" that is the worst label in Football. That is the nice way of saying "WUSS".

Mediator, While I agree with much of what you are saying, I hope that Lelie's quiet stoic personality is not being interpeted as lack of mental toughness or being soft.

[footstepsfrom#27]

I will continue to support him as a Bronco. But when you talk to Coaches and they tell you the kid is "SOFT" that is the worst label in Football. That is the nice way of saying "WUSS".
Has a Bronco coach actually said that about Lelie?

[Mediator12]

Mediator, While I agree with much of what you are saying, I hope that Lelie's quiet stoic personality is not being interpeted as lack of mental toughness or being soft.

It does not help, but they are NOT talking about personality off the field. They are talking about his on-field lack of Grit and inability to fight off the LOS and underneath. They are talking about shying AWAY from Contact in the Running game and running routes scared underneath. Believe me that offseason tape was prepared for Lelie in order to PISS HIM OFF :gus: Just like the Daryl Gardener one that Mike prepared to show off his lack of effort.

[Mediator12]

Has a Bronco coach actually said that about Lelie?

Yes. I am not saying which one however.

[Spider]

Yes. I am not saying which one however.
Steve Watson ;D .......

[Mediator12]

Steve Watson ;D .......

Hilarious! Like he could talk :nono:

[Spider]

Hilarious! Like he could talk :nono:
;D

[DB-Freak]

Well because its true thats why you can't dispel it.


Some random observations ... on the Broncos' wideout Ashley Lelie, for instance: "It isn't a stretch to say that Lelie was possibly the most dangerous deep threat in the NFL last season. He had the second most deep passes thrown to him, and ranked 20th in deep pass completion percentage (42 percent). He only faced tight/good coverage 24 percent of the time on deep passes, ranking him 11th in the league, and was open by two or more steps on deep passes 11 percent of the time. His success on deep routes made his overall yards per attempt the seventh highest in the league.

"It's a damn good thing Lelie was good at deep passes because he frankly stunk at the other depth levels."

Or on consensus All-Pro cornerback Champ Bailey: "Bailey was 79th in deep yards (first being the fewest), tied for 73rd in deep completion percentage, tied for 16th most in deep attempts, tied for 69th in deep TDs ... Bailey wasn't just beaten deep; he was targeted for deep passes quite frequently."


The fact is Lelie got open a lot and we couldn't hit in stride. Call me a homer all you want too thats fine but I do remember him getting ran into because he had to stop and wait for the ball.
11 percent where he was two or more step ahead doesn't even get him ranked. How is that getting open alot?

Not only that he was targetted the second most time for deep passes in the league with only 42 percent completion percentage. It doesn't even specifically point out whose fault the other 58 percent was. That's why no
one can exactly tell who it really was to Lelie's could have been stats. If you had that report on Plummer, the picture would be the more clearer.

65% of the time he faced average to decent coverage and that would obviously require Plummer to put the ball where obviously Lelie needs to making an adjustment to avoid the CB preventing the pass. It would require both work from Lelie and Plummer.



And sorry to say, but PLummer throws a very solid deep ball and is pretty underrated in that department.

[Spider]

And sorry to say, but PLummer throws a very solid deep ball and is pretty underrated in that department.
I like Plummer , but I dont know if I would make this claim ..... I know he throws a piss poor fade ball ;D

[Mediator12]

Well, we have already done Jake three times this offseason. Lelie on the other hand.

Who's ready for Rod Smith?

[DB-Freak]

I like Plummer , but I dont know if I would make this claim ..... I know he throws a piss poor fade ball ;D
People are unwilling to believe this, but its true in my case.

I'm a big skeptic of Plummer and O4L and I had a lot of disagreements about him.

But more I watched Plummer, he threw very good deep balls, more than people give him credit for. Since already Plummer already made a name for himself for being inaccurate and crap, it's hard to believe it.

And when Scouts Inc came out with the agreeing statement, I knew it was true.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Mediator...forgive me for asking this but I haven't been around these boards for about 3 years...since the old DPO fell apart...and so I'm unaware of what certain people in here do or who they know etc...but I get the impression from things you say that you have some kind of inside knowledge of the team, it's players, coaches, inner front office workings etc...

If that is what you are claiming, please tell me in some kind of discreet way without getting yourself in trouble how you obtain this info. I'm not exactly saying I don't believe you because I don't know you, but then again, I find it difficult to believe that unless you are a very close personal friend of someone on the team, a relative or perhaps an ex-player or coach that you'd know something like that. If you are one of those things, that doesn't sound like the kind of information that the team would appreciate circulating on the internet. Coaches don't make a habbit of broadcasting things like that to just anyone; at least the smart ones usually don't. There are exceptions I guess. Parcells publicly called Terry Glenn "she" for example, but that doesn't seem to be Shanahan's style. Calling a player soft or intimating that he is a wuss in some kind of pulbic way to me would be about the worst thing a coach could do. You might as well cut that guy because I doubt he'll ever let go of that or live it down.

So if you don't mind, give me some kind of idea about how you get inside information, and second, if you are legitimately privy to inside stuff...don't you think you have some kind of ethical obligation to keep what you hear private? That's a question I can't get around, hence my urge to ask it.

[Spider]

People are unwilling to believe this, but its true in my case.
Not unwilling , Just need to see accurate long balls .. I think Every Bronco fan wants to see Plummer to Lelie deep for 6 .......

I'm a big skeptic of Plummer and O4L and I had a lot of disagreements about him.
Realy nothing to argue , Plummer is Plummer , you take the Bad with the good ...

But more I watched Plummer, he threw very good deep balls, more than people give him credit for. Since already Plummer already made a name for himself for being inaccurate and crap, it's hard to believe it.
you dont amass 4000+ yards a season without going deep , but i saw better adjustments form the recievers , then jake being Dead eye .....


And when Scouts Inc came out with the agreeing statement, I knew it was true.
Well that settles it .......

[fontaine]

So if you don't mind, give me some kind of idea about how you get inside information, and second, if you are legitimately privy to inside stuff...don't you think you have some kind of ethical obligation to keep what you hear private? That's a question I can't get around, hence my urge to ask it.

Seriously, you don't need inside info to deduce a lot of what Med says. He has solid takes but it's not like you need Mike Shanahan or some other bronco coach to give you a personal call and tell you that Lelie lacks grit and toughness (ie somewhat soft).

All you need for that is to watch Lelie play, see him run his routes and how he goes over the middle/blocks etc, so no, I don't think that's inside stuff. There have been various articles published about how Lelie wasn't physical, was getting beat up at the line of scrimmage and how he has to bulk up, etc etc.

Same with Watts. You could tell by watching him last year in the second half that he was not exactly nervous but mentally not all there as a pass was thrown his way.

[bronco militia]

Mediator...forgive me for asking this but I haven't been around these boards for about 3 years...since the old DPO fell apart...and so I'm unaware of what certain people in here do or who they know etc...but I get the impression from things you say that you have some kind of inside knowledge of the team, it's players, coaches, inner front office workings etc...

If that is what you are claiming, please tell me in some kind of discreet way without getting yourself in trouble how you obtain this info. I'm not exactly saying I don't believe you because I don't know you, but then again, I find it difficult to believe that unless you are a very close personal friend of someone on the team, a relative or perhaps an ex-player or coach that you'd know something like that. If you are one of those things, that doesn't sound like the kind of information that the team would appreciate circulating on the internet. Coaches don't make a habbit of broadcasting things like that to just anyone; at least the smart ones usually don't. There are exceptions I guess. Parcells publicly called Terry Glenn "she" for example, but that doesn't seem to be Shanahan's style. Calling a player soft or intimating that he is a wuss in some kind of pulbic way to me would be about the worst thing a coach could do. You might as well cut that guy because I doubt he'll ever let go of that or live it down.

So if you don't mind, give me some kind of idea about how you get inside information, and second, if you are legitimately privy to inside stuff...don't you think you have some kind of ethical obligation to keep what you hear private? That's a question I can't get around, hence my urge to ask it.

what up...some of us from the old DPO hang at the Orange Mane and at the TheSouthStands.com (http://wc0.worldcrossing.com/WebX?15@@14@.1dde6920)

[footstepsfrom#27]

what up...some of us from the old DPO hang at the Orange Mane and at the TheSouthStands.com
I remember you BM...I posted in the DPO under "cyberbat" and later "evil genius"...if you remember that far back...LOL
Seriously, you don't need inside info to deduce a lot of what Med says. He has solid takes but it's not like you need Mike Shanahan or some other bronco coach to give you a personal call and tell you that Lelie lacks grit and toughness (ie somewhat soft).
Personal observations are one thing, and they obviously lead to varying opinions. But inside information is a completely different animal. To be able to say I KNOW what the coaches are thinking as opposed to I THINK I know what they're thinking is a major step up. If someone in here really does have personal inside information on the team, then that's the ultimate ender for every argument or debate. There's no way to combat that, nor should you even wish to if it's true. It's a pretty bold statement to make. I'd just like to know how and why he's able to make it. After all...I could claim that I'm the real Steve Atwater, hence "footstepsfrom#27" as my moniker, but I doubt most would buy that. Even if I was the real Smilin' Assassin himself, I'd probably not want it known on the board out of fear of getting hacked by one of you computer geeks...LOL...but when somebody claims inside info, I naturally want to know a little more about that.

[bronco militia]

I remember you BM...I posted in the DPO under "cyberbat" and later "evil genius"...if you remember that far back...LOL

.

ahhh...what up evil genius!?!?!...South Stands Junkie started the forum when the old html DPO went under and we kept it going even though the DPO started an EZ board...feel free to drop in say "hi" to Hater,Buster, Eye Patch, Hardcore, and KCNative.

[Mediator12]

Mediator...forgive me for asking this but I haven't been around these boards for about 3 years...since the old DPO fell apart...and so I'm unaware of what certain people in here do or who they know etc...but I get the impression from things you say that you have some kind of inside knowledge of the team, it's players, coaches, inner front office workings etc...

If that is what you are claiming, please tell me in some kind of discreet way without getting yourself in trouble how you obtain this info. I'm not exactly saying I don't believe you because I don't know you, but then again, I find it difficult to believe that unless you are a very close personal friend of someone on the team, a relative or perhaps an ex-player or coach that you'd know something like that. If you are one of those things, that doesn't sound like the kind of information that the team would appreciate circulating on the internet. Coaches don't make a habbit of broadcasting things like that to just anyone; at least the smart ones usually don't. There are exceptions I guess. Parcells publicly called Terry Glenn "she" for example, but that doesn't seem to be Shanahan's style. Calling a player soft or intimating that he is a wuss in some kind of pulbic way to me would be about the worst thing a coach could do. You might as well cut that guy because I doubt he'll ever let go of that or live it down.

So if you don't mind, give me some kind of idea about how you get inside information, and second, if you are legitimately privy to inside stuff...don't you think you have some kind of ethical obligation to keep what you hear private? That's a question I can't get around, hence my urge to ask it.

Most people around here know two things about me.

1. I am a graduate student in Psychology that knows a lot about football. I have attended the last three combines and help with the Wonderlic stuff due to my backround and desire to get into Sports Psychology after I get my PhD.

2. I never make blind assertions. This was not second hand knowledge or hearsay. 90% of what I know never finds its way here and never will. This however is in the public domain and if you can find it then you know who the source may be.

[footstepsfrom#27]

ahhh...what up evil genius!?!?!...South Stands Junkie started the forum when the old html DPO went under and we kept it going even though the DPO started an EZ board...feel free to drop in say "hi" to Hater,Buster, Eye Patch, Hardcore, and KCNative.
Is KC Chick still around? What about that Packer goofball...can't remember his name? Also, is Gary or Garly or whatever his name was...the guy had one topic only; the stadium tax. ::)

[footstepsfrom#27]

Wait! Buster was the Packer guy...right? He's STILL there??!! To funny.

[bronco militia]

Is KC Chick still around? What about that Packer goofball...can't remember his name? Also, is Gary or Garly or whatever his name was...the guy had one topic only; the stadium tax. ::)

Gary=Wags and hangs out at the Orange Mane politcal forum

the packer goofball is ardwolf and just recently showed up at the SouthStands....I haven't seen kcchick since 98,99?!?!?

[bronco militia]

Wait! Buster was the Packer guy...right? He's STILL there??!! To funny.


lmao!! most of us think that..

"woos up?!?"

[footstepsfrom#27]

Weren't there 2 Packer fans?...I forgot about Aardwolf. There was another guy and I think it was Buster. Didnt' he go by something else at first and then this Buster guy showed up and we thought the two of them were the same guy? Remember, Buster and his alter ego would have debates with each other...am I imagining all this or did it happen this way? At 40 the mind begins to go...

[footstepsfrom#27]

WAGS! What a dork that guy was...I imagined him being 52 and living at home with his mom in the basement...angry white man syndrome I think...can't believe he's still around either.

[Odysseus]

Personal observations are one thing, and they obviously lead to varying opinions. But inside information is a completely different animal. To be able to say I KNOW what the coaches are thinking as opposed to I THINK I know what they're thinking is a major step up.

I don't mean any disrespect but you can deduce an amazing amount of information just by paying attention. Even if the insider gets the right information the coach himself might be totally wrong. What a team should do or what it's going to do are many times different things and with a little common sense you would be shocked how much you can learn about a team from simply paying attention.

I remember when people started busting on Lelie in year one and I defended him. I came to his defense in year two. Every year this kid makes a nice step forward in improvement. This year I want something from him besides the most hideous end zone celebration done in a Bronco uniform ever! I want him to play football. I want him to block, do the cut routes, pick up the blitz, run one out of the backfield, be there for the dump pass, and generally do things where the best corners in the league have to choose between Lelie and Rod. Rod doesn't get as good a numbers as Lelie but every year Rod plays football and Lelie gets the press.

I think Lelie is a great player but he shouldn't need Watts to motivate him. He should not, after four years, be on the Rod Smith welfare plan. How long is he going to hide under Rod's wing? Do you think he could carry this team the way Rod does? All the Lelie supporters should bow down to Rod Smith for being the kind of player he is working with this guy and helping this tender soul become sterner stuff. What is his reward for that? These same fans forgetting the year that Lelie does ANYTHING that Rod was there for this team. I was really hard on Rod for years because like Lelie he came along slowly. I don't doubt Lelie but I think being soft on him isn't the best course.

[bronco militia]

Weren't there 2 Packer fans?...I forgot about Aardwolf. There was another guy and I think it was Buster. Didnt' he go by something else at first and then this Buster guy showed up and we thought the two of them were the same guy? Remember, Buster and his alter ego would have debates with each other...am I imagining all this or did it happen this way? At 40 the mind begins to go...


damn it! I can't remember either...I'll have to ask around.

again, feel free to drop in say hi. 10 post limit for free for each screen name, $12 per year for unlimited posting.

[footstepsfrom#27]

I don't mean any disrespect but you can deduce an amazing amount of information just by paying attention. Even if the insider gets the right information the coach himself might be totally wrong. What a team should do or what it's going to do are many times different things and with a little common sense you would be shocked how much you can learn about a team from simply paying attention.
I think I pay attention as much as possible but I live in Dallas. It's not like the Denver Post lands on my doorstep every day. This forum and a couple of other websites are about it as far as access to info goes. I have no problem with anyone deducing something, but IF they claim to have spoken with coaches, that seems like something I wish to know.
I think Lelie is a great player but he shouldn't need Watts to motivate him. He should not, after four years, be on the Rod Smith welfare plan. How long is he going to hide under Rod's wing? Do you think he could carry this team the way Rod does? All the Lelie supporters should bow down to Rod Smith for being the kind of player he is working with this guy and helping this tender soul become sterner stuff. What is his reward for that? These same fans forgetting the year that Lelie does ANYTHING that Rod was there for this team. I was really hard on Rod for years because like Lelie he came along slowly. I don't doubt Lelie but I think being soft on him isn't the best course.
Well as I've allready pointed out, most of the top receivers in the league took at least as long as Lelie to hit their stride, and many took longer. There's a reason the guys like Rice and Moss are in a fairly exclusive club of WR's that jumped in and lit up the NFL from day one. Rod Smith himself took as long as Lelie is taking to develop. Hopefully having both Smith and Rice here will further that process and this will be the year we see him become a truly complete player.

[footstepsfrom#27]

damn it! I can't remember either...I'll have to ask around.

again, feel free to drop in say hi. 10 post limit for free for each screen name, $12 per year for unlimited posting.
I'll pop in...thanks for the info.

[bronco militia]

Weren't there 2 Packer fans?...I forgot about Aardwolf. There was another guy and I think it was Buster. Didnt' he go by something else at first and then this Buster guy showed up and we thought the two of them were the same guy? Remember, Buster and his alter ego would have debates with each other...am I imagining all this or did it happen this way? At 40 the mind begins to go...

all right...aardwolf and BB45 were the packer fans...Armchair Bronco and Buster are probably the same person.

[footstepsfrom#27]

all right...aardwolf and BB45 were the packer fans...Armchair Bronco and Buster are probably the same person.
THAT'S IT! BB-45 was a big Farve homer...he was an annoying little troll...LOL...and yea I do think he was the same guy. :giggle:

[bronco militia]

baarite might have been a Pack fan too...

[Rock Chalk]

damn it! I can't remember either...I'll have to ask around.

again, feel free to drop in say hi. 10 post limit for free for each screen name, $12 per year for unlimited posting.
Pay money to post?

Well if you can get the suckers in, more power to you.

[DB-Freak]

Not unwilling , Just need to see accurate long balls .. I think Every Bronco fan wants to see Plummer to Lelie deep for 6 .......


Realy nothing to argue , Plummer is Plummer , you take the Bad with the good ...


you dont amass 4000+ yards a season without going deep , but i saw better adjustments form the recievers , then jake being Dead eye .....



Well that settles it .......
Don't take the Scout INC comment too seriously.

All I was saying was I wasn't the only one who saw Plummer throwing very good deep balls.

With guys like Culpepper and Farve who have great arms, I see their WRs making great adjustment on the deep balls with Javon Walker and Randy Moss.

[bronco militia]

Pay money to post?

Well if you can get the suckers in, more power to you.

I'm sure you could figure out a way to not pay...plenty of others have.

wouldn't you be willing to pay $12 a year to post here?

[Macnut]

And sorry to say, but PLummer throws a very solid deep ball and is pretty underrated in that department.
Man you call us homers! You got some of that to deal with too!
The way you make it, Plummer can just chuck it up and it will be a good deep pass.

[Atlas]

Man you call us homers! You got some of that to deal with too!
The way you make it, Plummer can just chuck it up and it will be a good deep pass.

I agree with Freak. Plummer throw a great deep sidline ball. Where the WR runs down the sidline. Those are much easier to throw. Jake however does not throw a good deep ball in the middle of the field where the safty will be there. His arm isn't strong enough to throw the deep middle posts but if you give a one on one with Lelie matched with a CB Jake can throw a nice deep ball.

[fontaine]

I agree with Freak. Plummer throw a great deep sidline ball. Where the WR runs down the sidline. Those are much easier to throw. Jake however does not throw a good deep ball in the middle of the field where the safty will be there. His arm isn't strong enough to throw the deep middle posts but if you give a one on one with Lelie matched with a CB Jake can throw a nice deep ball.

He'll get that opportunity because teams last year moved the safety up to the LOS to stop the run and forced Plummer to beat them with his arm. He wasn't too good at it last season.

[Atlas]

He'll get that opportunity because teams last year moved the safety up to the LOS to stop the run and forced Plummer to beat them with his arm. He wasn't too good at it last season.


Sure he was. Lelie had 7 TDs of 30 yards or more.

[fontaine]

Sure he was. Lelie had 7 TDs of 30 yards or more.

Yeah, but I'm talking about later in the season when teams (started with Cincy) decided to actually go all out and stop the run at the expense of their pass defense, daring Plummer to pass on them. He had a poor stretch of five or so games and finally rebounded when facing a 2nd string Titans defense who were getting scored on heavier than a kids jamboree party in Neverland.

[DB-Freak]

Man you call us homers! You got some of that to deal with too!
The way you make it, Plummer can just chuck it up and it will be a good deep pass.
Get a grip.

If you think I'm a homer of Plummer, pass me the stuff you're smoking.

[SouthStndJunkie]

Pay money to post?

Well if you can get the suckers in, more power to you.

That is what it sounds like Taco might have to do soon.

I am sure a lot of people would poney up $10 a year to post here to keep the place going. I would. At our DPO site paying is an option, you can still post for free up to a certain daily limit. Then you can just create another user name and post some more. Might not be the best situation, but worldcrossing does not charge money for hosting the discussion board.

SSJ