Here is why I don't support the death penalty [Archive] - The Orange Mane

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enjolras

08-01-2005, 06:57 PM

Sometimes we are so..so..wrong.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8790793/

errand

08-01-2005, 07:33 PM

So tell me enjolras...how many times have we heard of young children being murdered and raped by jerks who never should have been released...or better yet, had they been executed wouldn't have ever hurt another soul?

Or are you like Spider and LABF, who think this crap only happens in Abu Ghraib by our brave troops?

the death penalty is just that...a penalty for a heinous crime like murder. We realize it won't bring back the murdered, but then again no punishment undoes whatever crime was committed, now does it?

With the DNA research becoming more and more fool proof, it's not as likely the wrong person is being convicted anymore....our crime solving techniques have evolved....the better they get, the less likely we'll see this happen to someone else.

As for the guy...good thing for him DNA cleared him...but to bitch about it when the fact remains 19 years ago DNA research was in it's infant stages and the guy was found guilty based on the evidence the jury was presented. for every guy you can find that was wrongly convicted, there's tons more that are justifiably so.

Sure had the forensic labs been able to test DNA in 1986, this guy wouldn't have been convicted....well, had the F-18 existed in the 1830's the Alamo wouldn't have been overrun by the Mexican Army. You guys ned to quit crying over spilt milk...he was convicted based on the evidence presented to a jury of his peers....ends up they convicted the wrong guy....just as DNA would hav eprevented him from being convicted....it also would have resulted in them not making a mistake as well. But because it didn't exist back then, you seem like you want to indict the entire system.

Spider

08-01-2005, 07:38 PM

Meck77

08-01-2005, 08:05 PM

I support it. I'm also for speedy trial and a quick death. Here's some footage of our troops taking care of criminals in Afghanistan. This would save us tax payers alot of money with this type of trial. *Warning Graphic* http://www.zippyvideos.com/210292006586365.html

Spider

08-01-2005, 08:33 PM

I support the death penalty in some cases ..... Some people just cant be rehabilitated ...
But man the load you carry if you kill an innocent man .... I have seen death up close , and let me tell you it is a horrid thing ...........

enjolras

08-01-2005, 10:07 PM

released...or better yet, had they been executed wouldn't have ever hurt another soul?

Or are you like Spider and LABF, who think this crap only happens in Abu Ghraib by our brave troops?[/quote]

Wow..someone piss in your corn flakes this morning? What a leap from one to the other.

the death penalty is just that...a penalty for a heinous crime like murder. We realize it won't bring back the murdered, but then again no punishment undoes whatever crime was committed, now does it?

I have no issue with the death penalty as a punishment..

With the DNA research becoming more and more fool proof, it's not as likely the wrong person is being convicted anymore....our crime solving techniques have evolved....the better they get, the less likely we'll see this happen to someone else.

Similiar arguments where made 40 years ago.. and yet we've found numerous cases where we imprisoned and killed innocent people. In another 40 years we may have new technologies that show just how imperfect our current system is. What then?

As for the guy...good thing for him DNA cleared him...but to b**** about it when the fact remains 19 years ago DNA research was in it's infant stages and the guy was found guilty based on the evidence the jury was presented. for every guy you can find that was wrongly convicted, there's tons more that are justifiably so.

Yet that's still one innocent to much. What if it was you? What if it was your child?

Sure had the forensic labs been able to test DNA in 1986, this guy wouldn't have been convicted....well, had the F-18 existed in the 1830's the Alamo wouldn't have been overrun by the Mexican Army. You guys ned to quit crying over spilt milk...he was convicted based on the evidence presented to a jury of his peers....ends up they convicted the wrong guy....just as DNA would hav eprevented him from being convicted....it also would have resulted in them not making a mistake as well. But because it didn't exist back then, you seem like you want to indict the entire system.

Again.. where the hell did I say anything remotely close to that? All I said was 'here is why I don't support the death penalty' and you went running with it. You have already presupposed you know how I feel about an issue.. although I suspect your quite wrong.

Heres a simple question. If I ask you "What would you call the killing of an innocent civilian?" Any reasonable person would call it murder, and I suspect you would to. If our courts convict someone and put them to death only to find that they are innocent, doesn't that make us a society of murderers?

I hear so much talk about a culture of life.. how is that compatible with the notion of executing anyone, much less a innocent human being? It makes it hard to support the death penalty in the general sense.. after all there is no happy ending to that penalty. When we find that we've killed an innocent person, there is no 'our bad.. go home' story to tell.

There are instances where the death penalty is appropriate. The burden of proof, however, must be so concrete as to leave no doubt. I can tell you that is not always the case. Living in Texas has exposed a number of cases where people have been executed who we're probably guilty.. but left quite a bit of room for doubt.

enjolras

08-01-2005, 10:07 PM

A list of 119 people (http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=6&did=110) exonerated while on death row. These where the lucky ones. In these cases you'll find prosecutor/police misconduct, sloppy work, and altogether to much disregard for the weight of what these people had been sentenced to.

Counterpoint. (http://www.murdervictims.com/Voices/jeneliz.html) Here is an example of a case where the death penalty is appropriate. Confessions.. and no doubt as to what had happened. The only problem is that cases this solid are to few and far between.

gunns

08-01-2005, 10:24 PM

I'm against the death penalty for two reasons. Do we have the right to kill someone? And I believe it's an easy out for them. They'll die eventually. If you've ever talked to anyone who's been in prison they'll tell you that's hell. Let them rot and then let them meet their maker and answer for what they've done. Then there is the other option. For the ones that murder children. Put them in general population. One of those guys will take care of them and more along the line of the way they committed their murder probably. After a person on death row spends 12-15 years in prison on appeals and then the execution itself, that's more costly that keeping them there for 27-30 years. Let them rot.

Spider

08-01-2005, 10:33 PM

I'm against the death penalty for two reasons. Do we have the right to kill someone?
Thats the real question ..... I do believe we should put some people to death, Yeah I know they all will die sooner or later , but feeding , clothing , is a huge burden on somthing that cant be rehabilitated ...... Not to mention the life these people snuff out , a far better citizen then these scum will ever be ...... 10 or a 11 years ago in Colorado , young man working a pawn shop was robbed and killed , he left behind 2 young babies , that will never get to know thier dad cause some scum ended his life ......
Greeley colorado 9 years ago , a young woman working a conviences store , shot and killed ( I knew her personaly) cause some scum .......
I think it was 15 years ago a young Kid under 14 Shot and killed in Denver for a broncos coat ..... His life was ended by scum .......
Then you get into the Child molestation and killing young Babies raped and killed by Scum .......

SoCalBronco

08-01-2005, 10:34 PM

I am against the death penalty for religious reasons.

DBruleU

08-02-2005, 01:42 PM

I am against the death penalty for religious reasons.

What are the religious reasons?

BroncoInferno

08-02-2005, 01:52 PM

What are the religious reasons?

Probably "Thou shalt not Kill" ???

Montaq

08-02-2005, 02:03 PM

Probably "Thou shalt not Kill" ???

LOL that would be a good place to start.

DBruleU

08-02-2005, 02:41 PM

Probably "Thou shalt not Kill" ???

Yes he does say that, but he also says, and this is a direct quote from the Bible. "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed, for in the image of God, has God made man." Genesis 9:6.
God said this after the great flood, and he was giving commands to Noah.

"Anyone who strikes a man and kills him shall surely be put to death." Exodus 21:12

"If anyone takes the life of a human being, he must be put to death. Anyone who takes the life of someones animal must make restitution-life for life. If anyone injures his neighbor, whatever he has done, must be done to him. Fracture for fracture, tooth for tooth eye for eye. As he has injured, so he should be injured as well." Leviticus 24:17

God's investment in Human Beings with this judicial authority shows that they stand in God's stead as rulers and lays the foundation for government by the state. Exacting retribution is a social obligation. Not a personal matter. Humans were made in God's image. This is why homicidal blood, was to be avenged by man himself.

Spider

08-02-2005, 02:42 PM

Yes he does say that, but he also says, and this is a direct quote from the Bible. "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed, for in the image of God, has God made man." Genesis 9:6.
God said this after the great flood, and he was giving commands to Noah.

"Anyone who strikes a man and kills him shall surely be put to death." Exodus 21:12

"If anyone takes the life of a human being, he must be put to death. Anyone who takes the life of someones animal must make restitution-life for life. If anyone injures his neighbor, whatever he has done, must be done to him. Fracture for fracture, tooth for tooth eye for eye. As he has injured, so he should be injured as well." Leviticus 24:17

God's investment in Human Beings with this judicial authority shows that they stand in God's stead as rulers and lays the foundation for government by the state. Exacting retribution is a social obligation. Not a personal matter. Humans were made in God's image. This is why homicidal blood, was to be avenged by man himself.

Where does the break up Brad pitt and Jenifer Aniston fit in ?

SoCalBronco

08-02-2005, 02:50 PM

No, its not Thou Shall Not Kill. I do not take the Commandments literally, rather I think they are just general maxims, not rules. They are not practical as strict rules and I dont believe God designed them to be as such. There are just wars. Surely God could not mean to say "Do Not Lie" at all times. Its a balancing test. That's the general principle but you look at the benefits and detriments in each situation and see what is most equitable. Im against the Death Penalty because the Lord has said Vengeance is his. Again, here I will not accept this strictly, but rather as a general principle, open to exceptions when the detriments exceed the benefits. I dont think the Lord will punish you for engaging in a good faith analysis of the situation, so long as its in good faith and you are not rationalizing something to yourself. If I was for the Death Penalty than I would be condemning a person to death and taking away his/her oppurtunity to reform their lives even in prison for life so that they could have a chance at eternal life. Even the greatest sinner has a chance at eternal life, its not in my position to take away his or her chance at that. Plus, its more practical to keep them in prison for life if that is the alternative. They can provide a benefit by working on license plates and doing other things to benefit society while at the same time having an oppurtunity to change their demeanor and act more kindly towards others.

BroncoInferno

08-02-2005, 02:52 PM

Yes he does say that, but he also says, and this is a direct quote from the Bible. "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed, for in the image of God, has God made man." Genesis 9:6.
God said this after the great flood, and he was giving commands to Noah.

"Anyone who strikes a man and kills him shall surely be put to death." Exodus 21:12

"If anyone takes the life of a human being, he must be put to death. Anyone who takes the life of someones animal must make restitution-life for life. If anyone injures his neighbor, whatever he has done, must be done to him. Fracture for fracture, tooth for tooth eye for eye. As he has injured, so he should be injured as well." Leviticus 24:17

Yes, I'm aware that the Bible is wrought with contradictions, including those you mentioned with respect to the 5th commandment.

BroncoInferno

08-02-2005, 02:54 PM

W*GS

08-02-2005, 04:30 PM

You guys ned to quit crying over spilt milk...he was convicted based on the evidence presented to a jury of his peers....ends up they convicted the wrong guy....just as DNA would hav eprevented him from being convicted....it also would have resulted in them not making a mistake as well. But because it didn't exist back then, you seem like you want to indict the entire system.

How many mistaken executions are permissible? Percentage-wise, that is.

errand

08-03-2005, 09:05 PM

How many mistaken executions are permissible? Percentage-wise, that is.

DNA research has made the probability of a wrongful conviction less likely, and as it evolves, there will be fewer wrongful convictions.

When humans are involved, mistakes happen. Our society has been driving for how many years now and we still get into accidents, don't we? The point is yeah, some innocent people get convicted, based on the evidence presented.

But our justice system is better than anything else out there. It's not perfect, but it's the best created so far. And it's not like people are taken out and executed right after the trial, there are decades of appeals and even then there are clemency hearings and stays of execution to prevent the execution of a potentially innocent person.

ClevelandBronco2

08-03-2005, 11:56 PM

I don't support the death penalty, no matter the situation.

DNA testing can be botched and confessions can be coerced. Film would be the ultimate evidence of guilt, but I still wouldn't support execution even with filmed evidence.

Imposing death upon a life already captured crosses a line I'm not willing to cross.

Garcia Bronco

08-04-2005, 07:54 AM

I'm for it, but it has to be done properly with concrete evidence.

W*GS

08-04-2005, 09:37 AM

When humans are involved, mistakes happen. Our society has been driving for how many years now and we still get into accidents, don't we? The point is yeah, some innocent people get convicted, based on the evidence presented.

What's the acceptable error rate on executions, then?

BroncoInferno

08-04-2005, 10:07 AM

What's the acceptable error rate on executions, then?

Don't bother; you won't get an answer. Errand--in all his Christian compassion--doesn't really give a flying f*ck if innocents are executed.

Rohirrim

08-04-2005, 11:07 AM

To me, the ideas that this nation was founded on represent a shining beacon to mankind. The death penalty (as well as so many things that Bush Corp. engages in) throw dirt on that light. To paraphrase Lincoln, it violates the better angels of our nature. As far as the Old Testament goes - throw it in the wastebin and honestly ask yourself what would Jesus do? I'd love to hear an argument from anyone who considers themselves a Christian, that Jesus would support the death penalty. On second thought, it's so ridiculous, don't even bother.

errand

08-04-2005, 06:19 PM

What's the acceptable error rate on executions, then?

I know where you're going with this -

If I say "one" is acceptable your gonna ask me what if my kid or I were that one person....but the truth of the matter is, it happens sometimes...innocent people get convicted of crimes they didn't commit. I know you guys are still trying to find Utopia, but it doesn't exist...and it's not possible.

Now unless you advocate we strap video cams on and GPS chips in everyone, your gonna have to live with some people being wrongfully convicted. Personally, I'd rather run the risk of being falsly accused than being practically under house arrest in order to live in a "perfect" world.

In my opinion I'd wait until the problem was "most people on death row have been wrongfully convicted" before I'd worry about it.

errand

08-04-2005, 06:27 PM

We could make the nation safer by building a huge 60ft. wall, and layers of barbed wire, and land mines...with M-60's every 15 ft. Extreme? Yes...but then again nobody would be able to cross the border without an Abrahams tank.

We could make our lives safer by never venturing outside of our homes and just sitting in the lazy boy recliner and scratch our balls. Extreme? Yes, but you'd greatly diminish the chances of getting injured or killed....your biggest worry would be getting a bad case of "numb-ass"

We could make sure nobody is ever falsely accused by inserting GPS chips inside them, and requiring them to wear surgically installed head cams, and put video cameras all over the place inside and out of their homes, neighborhoods and businesses. Extreme? Yes....but then again you would practically eliminate anyone ever being falsely accused of a crime.

There ya go...problem solved.

Meck77

08-04-2005, 07:16 PM

I can respect the fact that some of you don't support the death penalty under any circumstances but I can't understand it.

If some asshole rapes and murders your teenage daughter and laughs about it while in court what right does he have to live anymore? You would still support his right to live? Seriously.

Simple question.

Spider

08-04-2005, 08:08 PM

I can respect the fact that some of you don't support the death penalty under any circumstances but I can't understand it.

If some a-hole rapes and murders your teenage daughter and laughs about it while in court what right does he have to live anymore? You would still support his right to live? Seriously.

Simple question.
I support the death penalty in some cases , but to answer your question , good chance that Bastard on Death row out lives you .......

errand

08-04-2005, 09:29 PM

I recall this one guy out here who murdered his infant daughter very gruesomely, microwaved or hacked her to pieces or something like that....anyways, he placed her in a garbage bag, and she was hauled away with the trash.

They located the landfill she was dumped at, and debated whether or not to spend $600 per hour for bulldozer to search for remains...since it had been months, they reasoned that it wold be a waste of money to look for remains as she probably had either decomposed completley, or was carted off by wild animals or stray dogs.

anyways, I'm talking to this customer of mine, and I said, 'If that doesn't deserve the death penalty, then what does?"

Her reply? "Killing him doesn't bring her back"

I was shocked into silence for about a 30 seconds....I asked her if she could name one punishment that undid the crime committed. She couldn't.

I asked her if putting a man in prison for 35 years for raping her would remove the trauma he caused? She said no.

I asked if putting a girl in prison for 6 months for robbing her employer return the money she stole? Again, the answer was no.

I asked if putting the man away from life bring the girl back? She said (suprise!) no.

So I asked her, if killing him doesn't bring her back, and putting him away for life doesn't bring her back, then what's the difference if he dies instead of lives?

As I've said before, we know it won't bring the dead back....it's a punishment for a heinous crime. and trust me, if you actually made sure those on death row were actually dying...it would deter alot of murders.

If you know pulling the trigger during a robbery would mean the difference between 15 years or death (yours) would you think harder about it? I think you would.

Spider

08-04-2005, 09:43 PM

it would deter alot of murders.
No you wouldnt , the mistake you are making is , you look at it through your eyes , When 9 out of 10 times the person commiting the Crime doesnt care if they live or die , as much as they care of getting away with it .....

If you know pulling the trigger during a robbery would mean the difference between 15 years or death (yours) would you think harder about it? I think you would.
See above , they dont think it out like a sane person would , Crimanals are very Spratic in thinking ,Hardly ever do they consider the notion of getting caught ....
The Idea of getting away with it , the thrill , will always come first with these type of people ...... In fact alot of people that have gotten by with Crimes continue on commiting crimes and leaving clues to up the stakes ......While you might baffle some woman with your bullshít , you wont baffle everyone .....

errand

08-05-2005, 08:36 AM

No you wouldnt , the mistake you are making is , you look at it through your eyes , When 9 out of 10 times the person commiting the Crime doesnt care if they live or die , as much as they care of getting away with it .....

So if they don't care if they live or die, why should anyone else? Why should society care if they live or die if the perpatrators of the crime according to your stats don't?

See above , they dont think it out like a sane person would , Crimanals are very Spratic in thinking ,Hardly ever do they consider the notion of getting caught ....
The Idea of getting away with it , the thrill , will always come first with these type of people ...... In fact alot of people that have gotten by with Crimes continue on commiting crimes and leaving clues to up the stakes ......While you might baffle some woman with your bullshít , you wont baffle everyone .....

I'm glad you have knowledge of the inner workings of insane people, I guess it takes one to know one. Then again you've come close to being one of those death row clowns, so I'm not suprised that you have first hand knowledge of the criminal's mind at work.

So again there doctor of psychology Spider, if these guys have no fear of dying, and could care less, and will continue to commit crimes anyways....why not give them the ultimate thrill and let them see death first hand, up close, and personal?

Spider

08-05-2005, 08:40 AM

So if they don't care if they live or die, why should anyone else? Why should society care if they live or die if the perpatrators of the crime according to your stats don't?
Where did I say they should ? Maybe you missed the part where I said I support the death penalty ......

I'm glad you have knowledge of the inner workings of insane people, I guess it takes one to know one. Then again you've come close to being one of those death row clowns, so I'm not suprised that you have first hand knowledge of the criminal's mind at work.
Well just as long as you see you are full of Shít and talking out of your element to some woman ..........

So again there doctor of psychology Spider, if these guys have no fear of dying, and could care less, and will continue to commit crimes anyways....why not give them the ultimate thrill and let them see death first hand, up close, and personal?
Where did I say they shouldnt ?
you realy need to lay off the Snake venom .... My statements were aimed at the cause and effect of the death penalty .........
Like I said Errand stick with Bullshítting women ......