At the risk of ruining The America that belives Rape and torture are ok ........

[Spider]

Matter of time before Patteeu and errand say that me Spider is ruining America ( my high school counselor never saw me doing this ;D )


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8769416/site/newsweek/
Exclusive: Secret Memo—Send to Be Tortured



Newsweek

Aug. 8, 2005 issue - An FBI agent warned superiors in a memo three years ago that U.S. officials who discussed plans to ship terror suspects to foreign nations that practice torture could be prosecuted for conspiring to violate U.S. law, according to a copy of the memo obtained by NEWSWEEK. The strongly worded memo, written by an FBI supervisor then assigned to Guantanamo, is the latest in a series of documents that have recently surfaced reflecting unease among some government lawyers and FBI agents over tactics being used in the war on terror. This memo appears to be the first that directly questions the legal premises of the Bush administration policy of "extraordinary rendition"—a secret program under which terror suspects are transferred to foreign countries that have been widely criticized for practicing torture.

[Spider]

In a memo forwarded to a senior FBI lawyer on Nov. 27, 2002, a supervisory special agent from the bureau's behavioral analysis unit offered a legal analysis of interrogation techniques that had been approved by Pentagon officials for use against a high-value Qaeda detainee. After objecting to techniques such as exploiting "phobias" like "the fear of dogs" or dripping water "to induce the misperception of drowning," the agent discussed a plan to send the detainee to Jordan, Egypt or an unspecified third country for interrogation. "In as much as the intent of this category is to utilize, outside the U.S., interrogation techniques which would violate [U.S. law] if committed in the U.S., it is a per se violation of the U.S. Torture Statute," the agent wrote. "Discussing any plan which includes this category could be seen as a con-spiracy to violate [the Torture Statute]" and "would inculpate" everyone involved.

A senior FBI official, who asked not to be identified because the issue is sensitive, said the memo was not an official bureau legal conclusion. Its author was at Gitmo to advise on interrogation techniques, not to render legal opinions, the official said. (The memo's author, a former New York City prosecutor, declined to comment to NEWSWEEK.) But another senior U.S. law-enforcement official familiar with the memo, who also asked not to be identified, said the memo reflects concerns among many agents and lawyers about "rendition." Intel officials estimate that more than 100 terror suspects have been rendered to foreign countries by the CIA under a classified directive signed by President George W. Bush after 9/11. A senior U.S. intelligence official, who asked not to be identified because the program is classified, said rendering suspects to their country of origin can aid intel because local interrogators speak the language better and understand the cultural sensitivities of the suspects. "No one is sent anywhere for the purpose of being tortured," the official said. A Pentagon spokesman said the Defense Department does not engage in renditions, but officials have confirmed that 65 detainees have been transferred from Guantanamo for further detention or prosecution by foreign governments, including 29 to Pakistan, seven to Russia, five to Morocco and four to Saudi Arabia—countries the State Department criticizes for practicing torture.

—Michael Isikoff

[Rigs11]

Let's fight terrorism by becoming terrorists ourselves. What a joke.

[errand]

Let's fight terrorism by becoming terrorists ourselves. What a joke.

At the risk of ruining the party for those of you who openly support those that commit acts of terror.....

Big difference clown....we target those that would cut your head off at the drop of a turban.....they target innocent civillians, women and children.

So tell us there Hadji and Mohammed......

[] supposing your next door neighbor sexually assaulted or murdered your child? Would you just calmly call the police and let them bring the guy to justice, where the slightest screw-up could end up allowing him to go free...or would you kick his freaking door in and begin to whip his ass within an inch of his life if not kill him?

[] suppose your interrogating a terrorist, and he knows where a bomb is planted and you have but 3 hours to locate it, or hundreds perhaps thousands of Americans will die?

[] what if you had captured your brother Mohammed Atta a mere hour prior to the planes hitting the WTC and Pentagon......and knew his cronies were up to something?

[] what if you captured Osama bin Laden himself? You know he knows where all the cells are located...or at least most of them?

Are you saying that you'd rather let Americans die vs going over the edge and getting the info needed to save their lives? All for the sake of looking good in the world's eye? Is it any wonder you guys have earned the nicknames you have?

BTW, before one of you clowns starts in with the "I'd use one of the several drugs available to interrogate them" line....remember, your advocating these guys be treated within accordance of the Geneva convention...which specifically says using such "truth serum" drugs is illegal and against the rules you seem to cherish so much.

Like they say, with friends like you, who the hell needs enemies?

[Rigs11]

At the risk of ruining the party for those of you who openly support those that commit acts of terror.....

Big difference clown....we target those that would cut your head off at the drop of a turban.....they target innocent civillians, women and children.

So tell us there Hadji and Mohammed......

[] supposing your next door neighbor sexually assaulted or murdered your child? Would you just calmly call the police and let them bring the guy to justice, where the slightest screw-up could end up allowing him to go free...or would you kick his freaking door in and begin to whip his ass within an inch of his life if not kill him?

[] suppose your interrogating a terrorist, and he knows where a bomb is planted and you have but 3 hours to locate it, or hundreds perhaps thousands of Americans will die?

[] what if you had captured your brother Mohammed Atta a mere hour prior to the planes hitting the WTC and Pentagon......and knew his cronies were up to something?

[] what if you captured Osama bin Laden himself? You know he knows where all the cells are located...or at least most of them?

Are you saying that you'd rather let Americans die vs going over the edge and getting the info needed to save their lives? All for the sake of looking good in the world's eye? Is it any wonder you guys have earned the nicknames you have?

BTW, before one of you clowns starts in with the "I'd use one of the several drugs available to interrogate them" line....remember, your advocating these guys be treated within accordance of the Geneva convention...which specifically says using such "truth serum" drugs is illegal and against the rules you seem to cherish so much.

Like they say, with friends like you, who the hell needs enemies?

You're the one that openly supports nuking innocent civilians, you're the one that is trying to justify those disgusting acts that those soldiers commited at Abu Graib. And since you think that you're so clever for calling us names, I got one for ya Jethro.Or do you like Cletus better?

[errand]

You're the one that openly supports nuking innocent civilians, you're the one that is trying to justify those disgusting acts that those soldiers commited at Abu Graib. And since you think that you're so clever for calling us names, I got one for ya Jethro.Or do you like Cletus better?

...at least they're American names, clown.

So tell us there my sympathetic friend of our enemies....did Truman do the wrong thing in leveling Nagasaki, and Hiroshima? It brought WWII to a much faster end didn't it...and it kept our troops out of harm's way didn't it?

So tell us, did Truman perform a war crime when he gave the order to end WWII?

[errand]

BTW...you still didn't answer my question. Is there no situation where you'd advocate the use of "torture" in order to save American lives...well, hell let's put it into a situation you can relate to.

LOL Supposing you caught Bush and knew he gave the order to rape women and sodomize yound boys, but you didn't know who he gave the order to, or where the torture was to be performed? How far would you go to save the feelings of the entire Terrorist world? Would you advocate we ask Bush nicely? or would you do whatever you could to get the info out of him?

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Big difference clown....we target those that would cut your head off at the drop of a turban.....they target innocent civillians, women and children.


Still trying to sell the same bullsh!t comparisons, I see.

Try to use your noggin for just a second (I know - it's 'hard work') and look at the facts:

"We" are "targeting," i.e., raping and sodomizing children at Abu Ghraib - not just "those that would cut your head off at the drop of a turban."

Your bullsh!t and spin might play on Planet Bush, but the majority of Americans are no longer buying it.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

BTW...you still didn't answer my question. Is there no situation where you'd advocate the use of "torture" in order to save American lives

How does raping and sodomizing children for the camera "save American lives," moron?

Anyone who would justify or defend such behavior by anyone under any circumstance is nothing but a piece of moral garbage on legs. (And he sure as hell doesn't represent the American way.)

[Spider]

At the risk of ruining the party for those of you who openly support those that commit acts of terror..... and raping young kids will stop this how ?

Big difference clown....we target those that would cut your head off at the drop of a turban.....they target innocent civillians, women and children.

So tell us there Hadji and Mohammed...... so fúcking their kids in the ass is the best way to can think of to stop them ?

[] supposing your next door neighbor sexually assaulted or murdered your child? Would you just calmly call the police and let them bring the guy to justice, where the slightest screw-up could end up allowing him to go free...or would you kick his freaking door in and begin to whip his ass within an inch of his life if not kill him?
what ? what in the hell does this have to do with anything besides revealing your own sick little world ?

[] suppose your interrogating a terrorist, and he knows where a bomb is planted and you have but 3 hours to locate it, or hundreds perhaps thousands of Americans will die?
gee hollywood , has that realy happened in real life ?

[] what if you had captured your brother Mohammed Atta a mere hour prior to the planes hitting the WTC and Pentagon......and knew his cronies were up to something?
see aug 6 th memo titled Bin Ladin determined to attack America ......

[] what if you captured Osama bin Laden himself? You know he knows where all the cells are located...or at least most of them?
i sure wouldnt plug in the ass ..... I would call you to do that , somthing you seem to enjoy

Are you saying that you'd rather let Americans die vs going over the edge and getting the info needed to save their lives? All for the sake of looking good in the world's eye? Is it any wonder you guys have earned the nicknames you have?
LOL you idiot , Americans arestill dying , I dont think raping kids is going to stop that , or it would have already .........

BTW, before one of you clowns starts in with the "I'd use one of the several drugs available to interrogate them" line....remember, your advocating these guys be treated within accordance of the Geneva convention...which specifically says using such "truth serum" drugs is illegal and against the rules you seem to cherish so much.

Like they say, with friends like you, who the hell needs enemies?
Well your kids would be safe around us , cant say the same thing about you .... dying is a hellva alot better then being a child molestor ......

[Rigs11]

...at least they're American names, clown.

So tell us there my sympathetic friend of our enemies....did Truman do the wrong thing in leveling Nagasaki, and Hiroshima? It brought WWII to a much faster end didn't it...and it kept our troops out of harm's way didn't it?

So tell us, did Truman perform a war crime when he gave the order to end WWII?
Yeah names that perfectly describe your hillbilly mentality.

[Rigs11]

BTW...you still didn't answer my question. Is there no situation where you'd advocate the use of "torture" in order to save American lives...well, hell let's put it into a situation you can relate to.

LOL Supposing you caught Bush and knew he gave the order to rape women and sodomize yound boys, but you didn't know who he gave the order to, or where the torture was to be performed? How far would you go to save the feelings of the entire Terrorist world? Would you advocate we ask Bush nicely? or would you do whatever you could to get the info out of him?

I've said it before I'm above torturing anyone. The terrorists on the other hand have already beat you, they've turned you into one of them, and a dumb one at that.

[elsid13]

One of the greatest danger fighting this type of evil, is that you start to justify things to yourself that wouldn't do to win. Unfortunately, I could see myself supporting the types of actions, to protect Americans.

[Spider]

One of the greatest danger fighting this type of evil, is that you start to justify things to yourself that wouldn't do to win. Unfortunately, I could see myself supporting the types of actions, to protect Americans.
Rape I couldnt go with .... Homosexual acts I couldnt condone , the other stuff I could very easly over look , Hell even putting Pork on their plate , Blaring Rap music untill 3 or 4 in the morning , I would even condone Pictures of Al Davis nude posted on walls ..... I would even condone Donnie Osmand Music lip synced by Danny Bonaduce wearing Dolly Parton Falsies , Tammy Faye make up ...... But raping of kids is way over the line bro

[errand]

Where's your proof that anyone was raped Spider? Not allegations...not suspicions or suggestions....proof.

[BroncoInferno]

::) Oh, the scourge of nationalism.

...at least they're American names, clown.

So tell us there my sympathetic friend of our enemies....did Truman do the wrong thing in leveling Nagasaki, and Hiroshima? It brought WWII to a much faster end didn't it...and it kept our troops out of harm's way didn't it?

So tell us, did Truman perform a war crime when he gave the order to end WWII?

Yes. That, along with the firing bombing of Dresden, which was carried out on Churchill's order when the war was as good as over. He did it for revenge.

I make no distinction when talking about the death of civilians. Joe Blow from California is not a more valuable life to me than Chin Ying over in Japan simply because he happened to be born within the same arbitrary, imaginary land border as myself. Human beings are human beings. Any act of war that knowingly causes the deaths of non-combatants is an immoral act.

[elsid13]

Rape I couldnt go with .... Homosexual acts I couldnt condone , the other stuff I could very easly over look , Hell even putting Pork on their plate , Blaring Rap music untill 3 or 4 in the morning , I would even condone Pictures of Al Davis nude posted on walls ..... I would even condone Donnie Osmand Music lip synced by Danny Bonaduce wearing Dolly Parton Falsies , Tammy Faye make up ...... But raping of kids is way over the line bro

I missing where the raping kids is in the article or memo, not be a dick but I don't see that it at all. So where is it????

[errand]

One of the greatest danger fighting this type of evil, is that you start to justify things to yourself that wouldn't do to win. Unfortunately, I could see myself supporting the types of actions, to protect Americans.


Exactly....normally in a war, the rules of engagement are the same on both sides....but these guys don't fight fair, they don't fight our military unless they absolutely have to.

No, instead they drive cars filled with explosives and park them next to market places where women and children are, and detonate them....they blow up kids who are chasing after candy tossed by American soldiers...they kidnap innocent civillians and cut their heads off.

But that's expected, and should be tolerated according to these leftist clowns. And the one thing these clowns never bring up is the deafening silence of the Muslim leaders.

Practically, the entire Muslim world doesn't care if innocent people are being killed by other radical Muslims. And it's been happening for several decades now...and not one solitary president has had the guts to stand up to them until now.

Charles Krauthammer wrote an interesting article the other day where he noted that the majority of Muslims in England sympathize with those that committed the bombings. Those that didn't smpathize, claimed they understood where the murderers were coming from. They feel no allegiance to England despite having lived their most of their lives.

Now imagine if it were Christians who were murdering these people with car bombs and cutting the heads off their hostages....why you'd hear "Nuke 'em" from even Barbara Streisand

When Hiroshima and Nagasaki were leveled in '45 it sent a message to the people of Japan...put pressure on your government to surrender...or face more destruction.

This act not only saved American lives from what surely would have been one of the largest amphibious assaults with some pre-invasion estimates of potential American casualties reaching as high as 45-50%...it also saved alot of Japanese lives because while everyone talks of fighting to the last man, and last bullet...the Japanese were the only ones who actually did it.

Look at what 9/11 has caused certain factions on our side to do and say? Read some of the crap these clowns have posted since 9/11.....nothing good about our brave troops...in fact they rarely post anything about them unless it's a negative like the one time a few of them refused to serve...or openly bitched about being in Iraq.

And as noted they have no proof that any of these vile acts have happened other than someone leaking that the photos suggested this or implied that.

No photos have been released, and if they are and they prove these acts did indeed happen...again the US will prosecute them for their crimes. We always have. Calley claimed to be following orders, and his defense didn't work....and he was punished for his crimes @ My Lai.

But until they have concrete proof that these events happened, I fail to see why they are all in an uprorar to hang someone....amazing they all claim to love America, but they fail to live by our "innocent until proven guilty" justice system.

[Spider]

I missing where the raping kids is in the article or memo, not be a dick but I don't see that it at all. So where is it????
http://66.49.247.155/BB/showpost.php?p=688670&postcount=2

[Spider]

Exactly....normally in a war, the rules of engagement are the same on both sides....but these guys don't fight fair, they don't fight our military unless they absolutely have to.

No, instead they drive cars filled with explosives and park them next to market places where women and children are, and detonate them....they blow up kids who are chasing after candy tossed by American soldiers...they kidnap innocent civillians and cut their heads off.

But that's expected, and should be tolerated according to these leftist clowns. And the one thing these clowns never bring up is the deafening silence of the Muslim leaders.

Practically, the entire Muslim world doesn't care if innocent people are being killed by other radical Muslims. And it's been happening for several decades now...and not one solitary president has had the guts to stand up to them until now.

Charles Krauthammer wrote an interesting article the other day where he noted that the majority of Muslims in England sympathize with those that committed the bombings. Those that didn't smpathize, claimed they understood where the murderers were coming from. They feel no allegiance to England despite having lived their most of their lives.

Now imagine if it were Christians who were murdering these people with car bombs and cutting the heads off their hostages....why you'd hear "Nuke 'em" from even Barbara Streisand

When Hiroshima and Nagasaki were leveled in '45 it sent a message to the people of Japan...put pressure on your government to surrender...or face more destruction.

This act not only saved American lives from what surely would have been one of the largest amphibious assaults with some pre-invasion estimates of potential American casualties reaching as high as 45-50%...it also saved alot of Japanese lives because while everyone talks of fighting to the last man, and last bullet...the Japanese were the only ones who actually did it.

Look at what 9/11 has caused certain factions on our side to do and say? Read some of the crap these clowns have posted since 9/11.....nothing good about our brave troops...in fact they rarely post anything about them unless it's a negative like the one time a few of them refused to serve...or openly b****ed about being in Iraq.

And as noted they have no proof that any of these vile acts have happened other than someone leaking that the photos suggested this or implied that.

No photos have been released, and if they are and they prove these acts did indeed happen...again the US will prosecute them for their crimes. We always have. Calley claimed to be following orders, and his defense didn't work....and he was punished for his crimes @ My Lai.

But until they have concrete proof that these events happened, I fail to see why they are all in an uprorar to hang someone....amazing they all claim to love America, but they fail to live by our "innocent until proven guilty" justice system.

LOL , you are so full of Shít I bet your eyes are brown

[errand]

::) Oh, the scourge of nationalism.



Yes. That, along with the firing bombing of Dresden, which was carried out on Churchill's order when the war was as good as over. He did it for revenge.

I make no distinction when talking about the death of civilians. Joe Blow from California is not a more valuable life to me than Chin Ying over in Japan simply because he happened to be born within the same arbitrary, imaginary land border as myself. Human beings are human beings. Any act of war that knowingly causes the deaths of non-combatants is an immoral act.

Dresden was for revenge huh?

That's like bitching about Neil Smith rumbling with a fumble recovery for a TD in a playoff game that stood @ 31-3. sure the game was good as won...but it wasn't over now was it?

You remind me of that idiot on "The Sand Pebbles" who cursed the American flag, and the troops who had come to rescue him......he, like you, figured that denouncing his country would save him from evil. Running towards them holding his piece of paper claiming he was a stateless....how did they react? They put a bullet in his head.

People die in wars....it happens, but you guys are trying to claim our military is systematically rounding up women and children and having them raped, and murdered....and that's not true.

Have rapes happened? Murders? Perhaps, but I'll wait until an investigation is completed or photos are produced before I pass judgement on our brave troops. Spider and his cronies like you want their nuts in a sling now without any proof...to him it's the seriouness of the charge that matters...not the matter of the evidence that hasn't proven anything as of yet.

But be that as it may, to claim this is the norm and that it was ordered by the White House is pretty ignorant.

[elsid13]

http://66.49.247.155/BB/showpost.php?p=688670&postcount=2


Thanks I hadn't not seen or heard that. My comment were targeted to this thread alone, and didn't have anything to do with women or childern. What breakdown in command happen that place.

[Spider]

This is how CNN reported it on May 8, 2004, in a typical account that day:

“U.S. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld revealed Friday that videos and ‘a lot more pictures’ exist of the abuse of Iraqis held at Abu Ghraib prison.
And According to Errand Rummy adimission isnt Proof LOL

"’If these are released to the public, obviously it's going to make matters worse,’ Rumsfeld told the Senate Armed Services Committee. ‘I mean, I looked at them last night, and they're hard to believe.’

“The embattled defense secretary fielded sharp and skeptical questions from lawmakers as he testified about the growing prisoner abuse scandal. A military report about that abuse describes detainees being threatened, sodomized with a chemical light and forced into sexually humiliating poses.

“Charges have been brought against seven service members, and investigations into events at the prison continue.

“Military investigators have looked into -- or are continuing to investigate -- 35 cases of alleged abuse or deaths of prisoners in detention facilities in the Central Command theater, according to Army Secretary Les Brownlee. Two of those cases were deemed homicides, he said.

"’The American public needs to understand we're talking about rape and murder here. We're not just talking about giving people a humiliating experience,’ Republican Sen. Lindsey Graham of South Carolina told reporters after Rumsfeld testified before the Senate Armed Services Committee. ’We're talking about rape and murder -- and some very serious charges.’

“A report by Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba on the abuse at the prison outside Baghdad says videotapes and photographs show naked detainees, and that groups of men were forced to masturbate while being photographed and videotaped. Taguba also found evidence of a ‘male MP guard having sex with a female detainee.’

“Rumsfeld told Congress the unrevealed photos and videos contain acts 'that can only be described as blatantly sadistic, cruel and inhuman.’”

The military later screened some of the images for lawmakers, who said they showed, among other things, attack dogs snarling at cowed prisoners, Iraqi women forced to expose their breasts, and naked prisoners forced to have sex with each other.

In the same period, reporter Seymour Hersh, who helped uncover the scandal, said in a speech before an ACLU convention: “Some of the worse that happened that you don't know about, ok? Videos, there are women there. Some of you may have read they were passing letters, communications out to their men….The women were passing messages saying ‘Please come and kill me, because of what's happened.’

“Basically what happened is that those women who were arrested with young boys/children in cases that have been recorded. The boys were sodomized with the cameras rolling. The worst about all of them is the soundtrack of the boys shrieking that your government has. They are in total terror it's going to come out.”

[Spider]

Thanks I hadn't not seen or heard that. My comment were targeted to this thread alone, and didn't have anything to do with women or childern. What breakdown in command happen that place.
I think this memo is tied in with that break down .....

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

And According to Errand Rummy adimission isnt Proof LOL

Yeah, how does that work?

Is errant calling Rummy a liar?

The knots goobers like errant have to tie their brains into in order to be Bush shills!

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I've said it before I'm above torturing anyone. The terrorists on the other hand have already beat you, they've turned you into one of them, and a dumb one at that.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Rigs11 again.

^5

[enjolras]

So tell us there Hadji and Mohammed......

I see ethnic stereotypes are all the rage in the trailer park these days.

[] supposing your next door neighbor sexually assaulted or murdered your child? Would you just calmly call the police and let them bring the guy to justice, where the slightest screw-up could end up allowing him to go free...or would you kick his freaking door in and begin to whip his ass within an inch of his life if not kill him?

Which is precisely why victims loved ones don't get to convict or choose punishment for criminals in our system. They are simply the LEAST objective to determine what is BEST for a society.. only what FEELS good. I guess the knuckle draggers like yourself now beleive you smarter than almost 230 years of precedent.

suppose your interrogating a terrorist, and he knows where a bomb is planted and you have but 3 hours to locate it, or hundreds perhaps thousands of Americans will die?

I would suppose that shipping him off to Jordan first doesn't do you much good.

Are you saying that you'd rather let Americans die vs going over the edge and getting the info needed to save their lives? All for the sake of looking good in the world's eye? Is it any wonder you guys have earned the nicknames you have?

This is where you just don't get it. It has absolutely nothing to do with looking good to anybody but ourselves. Your such a scared little man that you would willingly discard everything that makes this country great for a little temporary security. You love to recall the bravery of the soldiers, but you clearly have neither the mental capacity nor the basic courage to follow in their example. When our grandfathers stormed the beaches at normandy, their fathers stood the line Germany, and ultimately our forefathers stood up to the British empire they did it to protect not a piece of land, but an ideal. They beleived that we as a people represented the evolution of man to a higher ideal. One that stood for the basic rights of man (not just those that happened to live in America, but ALL man).. It was an ideal worth protecting, even if it meant the sacrifice of American lives.

I for one remain commited to that basic ideal. We are a great people, and a people deserving better than you. We are a people capable of combatting terrorists without sacrificing all that makes us great in the first place. It sure would be nice if you'd get out of the fetal position and join us. It's always so amusing when you question the toughness of liberals, when at the end of the day your words show only weakness.

I for one, truly beleive that my country should be better than that.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I see ethnic stereotypes are all the rage in the trailer park these days.



Which is precisely why victims loved ones don't get to convict or choose punishment for criminals in our system. They are simply the LEAST objective to determine what is BEST for a society.. only what FEELS good. I guess the knuckle draggers like yourself now beleive you smarter than almost 230 years of precedent.



I would suppose that shipping him off to Jordan first doesn't do you much good.



This is where you just don't get it. It has absolutely nothing to do with looking good to anybody but ourselves. Your such a scared little man that you would willingly discard everything that makes this country great for a little temporary security. You love to recall the bravery of the soldiers, but you clearly have neither the mental capacity nor the basic courage to follow in their example. When our grandfathers stormed the beaches at normandy, their fathers stood the line Germany, and ultimately our forefathers stood up to the British empire they did it to protect not a piece of land, but an ideal. They beleived that we as a people represented the evolution of man to a higher ideal. One that stood for the basic rights of man (not just those that happened to live in America, but ALL man).. It was an ideal worth protecting, even if it meant the sacrifice of American lives.

I for one remain commited to that basic ideal. We are a great people, and a people deserving better than you. We are a people capable of combatting terrorists without sacrificing all that makes us great in the first place. It sure would be nice if you'd get out of the fetal position and join us. It's always so amusing when you question the toughness of liberals, when at the end of the day your words show only weakness.

I for one, truly beleive that my country should be better than that.


Wow!

Enjolras puts the WWF smackdown on Archie Bunker!

Nice work, dude.

:thumbsup:

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

When our grandfathers stormed the beaches at normandy, their fathers stood the line Germany, and ultimately our forefathers stood up to the British empire they did it to protect not a piece of land, but an ideal. They beleived that we as a people represented the evolution of man to a higher ideal. One that stood for the basic rights of man (not just those that happened to live in America, but ALL man).. It was an ideal worth protecting, even if it meant the sacrifice of American lives.

Now that is what I call a grand-slam home run!

Bravo!

:thumbsup:

[Spider]

I see ethnic stereotypes are all the rage in the trailer park these days.



Which is precisely why victims loved ones don't get to convict or choose punishment for criminals in our system. They are simply the LEAST objective to determine what is BEST for a society.. only what FEELS good. I guess the knuckle draggers like yourself now beleive you smarter than almost 230 years of precedent.



I would suppose that shipping him off to Jordan first doesn't do you much good.



This is where you just don't get it. It has absolutely nothing to do with looking good to anybody but ourselves. Your such a scared little man that you would willingly discard everything that makes this country great for a little temporary security. You love to recall the bravery of the soldiers, but you clearly have neither the mental capacity nor the basic courage to follow in their example. When our grandfathers stormed the beaches at normandy, their fathers stood the line Germany, and ultimately our forefathers stood up to the British empire they did it to protect not a piece of land, but an ideal. They beleived that we as a people represented the evolution of man to a higher ideal. One that stood for the basic rights of man (not just those that happened to live in America, but ALL man).. It was an ideal worth protecting, even if it meant the sacrifice of American lives.

I for one remain commited to that basic ideal. We are a great people, and a people deserving better than you. We are a people capable of combatting terrorists without sacrificing all that makes us great in the first place. It sure would be nice if you'd get out of the fetal position and join us. It's always so amusing when you question the toughness of liberals, when at the end of the day your words show only weakness.

I for one, truly beleive that my country should be better than that.
'
Man o man what a ****ing smack down , and right on the money ..........Outstanding post ......

[Rigs11]

I see ethnic stereotypes are all the rage in the trailer park these days.



Which is precisely why victims loved ones don't get to convict or choose punishment for criminals in our system. They are simply the LEAST objective to determine what is BEST for a society.. only what FEELS good. I guess the knuckle draggers like yourself now beleive you smarter than almost 230 years of precedent.



I would suppose that shipping him off to Jordan first doesn't do you much good.



This is where you just don't get it. It has absolutely nothing to do with looking good to anybody but ourselves. Your such a scared little man that you would willingly discard everything that makes this country great for a little temporary security. You love to recall the bravery of the soldiers, but you clearly have neither the mental capacity nor the basic courage to follow in their example. When our grandfathers stormed the beaches at normandy, their fathers stood the line Germany, and ultimately our forefathers stood up to the British empire they did it to protect not a piece of land, but an ideal. They beleived that we as a people represented the evolution of man to a higher ideal. One that stood for the basic rights of man (not just those that happened to live in America, but ALL man).. It was an ideal worth protecting, even if it meant the sacrifice of American lives.

I for one remain commited to that basic ideal. We are a great people, and a people deserving better than you. We are a people capable of combatting terrorists without sacrificing all that makes us great in the first place. It sure would be nice if you'd get out of the fetal position and join us. It's always so amusing when you question the toughness of liberals, when at the end of the day your words show only weakness.

I for one, truly beleive that my country should be better than that.


Errand you've just been......

http://www.owned.com/Owned_Pictures/longliveamericaowned.jpg.jpg

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I see ethnic stereotypes are all the rage in the trailer park these days.

LOL

When I picture errant, I envision him as a guy who looks something like that inbred yokel who capped Peter Fonda in "Easy Rider."

(Although I probably shouldn't have said this - he'll probably take it as a compliment.)

:D

[Spider]

I would rep that post 50 times of I could .....

[gunns]

Rape I couldnt go with .... Homosexual acts I couldnt condone , the other stuff I could very easly over look , Hell even putting Pork on their plate , Blaring Rap music untill 3 or 4 in the morning , I would even condone Pictures of Al Davis nude posted on walls ..... I would even condone Donnie Osmand Music lip synced by Danny Bonaduce wearing Dolly Parton Falsies , Tammy Faye make up ...... But raping of kids is way over the line bro

Pictures of Al Davis nude? Now that's downright inhumane. ugh!~

[gunns]

I see ethnic stereotypes are all the rage in the trailer park these days.



Which is precisely why victims loved ones don't get to convict or choose punishment for criminals in our system. They are simply the LEAST objective to determine what is BEST for a society.. only what FEELS good. I guess the knuckle draggers like yourself now beleive you smarter than almost 230 years of precedent.



I would suppose that shipping him off to Jordan first doesn't do you much good.



This is where you just don't get it. It has absolutely nothing to do with looking good to anybody but ourselves. Your such a scared little man that you would willingly discard everything that makes this country great for a little temporary security. You love to recall the bravery of the soldiers, but you clearly have neither the mental capacity nor the basic courage to follow in their example. When our grandfathers stormed the beaches at normandy, their fathers stood the line Germany, and ultimately our forefathers stood up to the British empire they did it to protect not a piece of land, but an ideal. They beleived that we as a people represented the evolution of man to a higher ideal. One that stood for the basic rights of man (not just those that happened to live in America, but ALL man).. It was an ideal worth protecting, even if it meant the sacrifice of American lives.

I for one remain commited to that basic ideal. We are a great people, and a people deserving better than you. We are a people capable of combatting terrorists without sacrificing all that makes us great in the first place. It sure would be nice if you'd get out of the fetal position and join us. It's always so amusing when you question the toughness of liberals, when at the end of the day your words show only weakness.

I for one, truly beleive that my country should be better than that.

That was great. I think he's speechless. BRAVO!

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Pictures of Al Davis nude? Now that's downright inhumane. ugh!~

Yeah - if given a choice, I'd probably opt for getting hung upside down by my scrotum instead.

;)

[errand]

You love to recall the bravery of the soldiers, but you clearly have neither the mental capacity nor the basic courage to follow in their example.

They beleived that we as a people represented the evolution of man to a higher ideal. One that stood for the basic rights of man (not just those that happened to live in America, but ALL man).. It was an ideal worth protecting, even if it meant the sacrifice of American lives.



Not sure why LABF or Spider think this was a smackdown.....

I have served in the military. Served in Lebanon in '83 and lost many friends in the bombing of the Marine Barracks...now pray tell, have you served? I doubt it very seriously. So to question my mental capacity or courage is rather ignorant on your part.

This last sentence highlight I find odd that you post this, and yet constantly oppose the war and do nothing but bitch about our troops and their courage that you claim I have none of.

[] 50 million people who were oppressed are now free.

[] women in Iraq and Afghanistan are voting and running for political office now.

[] two nations that never allowed it's people to pick and choose their leaders are now doing so.

So now tell me again, especially after posting this, how the deaths of 1,800 American troops aren't worth it?

[Bronco_Beerslug]

[] 50 million people who were oppressed are now free.

[] women in Iraq and Afghanistan are voting and running for political office now.

[] two nations that never allowed it's people to pick and choose their leaders are now doing so.

So now tell me again, especially after posting this, how the deaths of 1,800 American troops aren't worth it?
Time to wake up and join the real world. The Iraqis just made known to all that their charter IF ever approved, will be based on Islamic religious rule (see pawn of Iran). Women will LOSE rights under religious rule. NO laws can be passed that would conflict with Muslim teachings.

So over 20,000 casualties, 1870 deaths and hundreds of billions of dollars has turned Iraq into this.

Say hello to Iranian democracy.

[errand]

Oh, and BTW my liberal cretin.....you only care about protecting the basic rights of every man if they're terrorists, or enemy combatants, which explains how you can post about our ideal being worth the sacrifice of American lives, and yet despise the fact that we are doing exactly that in Iraq and Afghanistan.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Oh, and BTW my liberal cretin.....you only care about protecting the basic rights of every man if they're terrorists, or enemy combatants, which explains how you can post about our ideal being worth the sacrifice of American lives, and yet despise the fact that we are doing exactly that in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Facts and reality kinda suck, don't they?

[errand]

Time to wake up and join the real world. The Iraqis just made known to all that their charter IF ever approved, will be based on Islamic religious rule (see pawn of Iran). Women will LOSE rights under religious rule. NO laws can be passed that would conflict with Muslim teachings.

So over 20,000 casualties, 1870 deaths and hundreds of billions of dollars has turned Iraq into this.

Say hello to Iranian democracy.

So tell me how that goes against the fact that they were free to choose it?

Would an Islamic government that didn't support terrorism and was an ally be bad for the region?

[Bronco_Beerslug]

So tell me how that goes against the fact that they were free to choose it?

Would an Islamic government that didn't support terrorism and was an ally be bad for the region?
They haven't "chosen" anything yet. They could be on the verge of civil war though or if the Kurds and Sh*tes push their version of the charter through without Sunni approval. The Sunnis vowed to vote it down in the Oct. referendum which would mean everything that happened up to now is moot and all elections are void, everything would go back to square one.

You need to educate yourself on what Islamic rule means.
And just for you, once again, Iraq didn't support terrorism before we attacked them.

[Rohirrim]

"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security." B. Franklin

[Rigs11]

More Images Of Abu Ghraib

There's a new batch of photos from Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison, and these are reportedly far worse than the sickening originals. Naturally, the Pentagon is trying to block their release.

The ACLU filed a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request in October 2003 to make public 87 photographs and four videos depicting prisoner abuse in Iraq. The Pentagon originally argued that releasing the images would violate the Geneva Convention rights of the detainees; a supreme irony considering that the US originally denied these very prisoners Geneva Convention protections. The ACLU agreed that the Pentagon could black out "identifying characteristics," but a federal judge in New York ruled last week that DoD must explain publicly why it's concealing the images. "By and large, I ruled for public disclosure," said US District Judge Alvin Hellerstein. A final ruling is expected on August 30.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/08/22/opinion/main791067.shtml

[elsid13]

We all know that there was a major breakdown of the command and things were done that shouldn't have been. What value does releasing the video/pictures now??? By releasing them we might put American at greater risk through out the world.

[MistrSynistr]

At the risk of ruining the party for those of you who openly support those that commit acts of terror.....

Big difference clown....we target those that would cut your head off at the drop of a turban.....they target innocent civillians, women and children.

So tell us there Hadji and Mohammed......

[] supposing your next door neighbor sexually assaulted or murdered your child? Would you just calmly call the police and let them bring the guy to justice, where the slightest screw-up could end up allowing him to go free...or would you kick his freaking door in and begin to whip his ass within an inch of his life if not kill him?

[] suppose your interrogating a terrorist, and he knows where a bomb is planted and you have but 3 hours to locate it, or hundreds perhaps thousands of Americans will die?

[] what if you had captured your brother Mohammed Atta a mere hour prior to the planes hitting the WTC and Pentagon......and knew his cronies were up to something?

[] what if you captured Osama bin Laden himself? You know he knows where all the cells are located...or at least most of them?

Are you saying that you'd rather let Americans die vs going over the edge and getting the info needed to save their lives? All for the sake of looking good in the world's eye? Is it any wonder you guys have earned the nicknames you have?

BTW, before one of you clowns starts in with the "I'd use one of the several drugs available to interrogate them" line....remember, your advocating these guys be treated within accordance of the Geneva convention...which specifically says using such "truth serum" drugs is illegal and against the rules you seem to cherish so much.

Like they say, with friends like you, who the hell needs enemies?


This is a GREAT argument for a weak minded individual. You DO make points, well, some of them. Only, your surpression of information and facts make it very easy to side with you. It's sorta like Organized Religion. I mean, look at all the people who believe out of sheer repressed information..it's an awesome tactic. What you've FAILED to mention in this post, that I shouldn't even need to point out(but 51% of you seemed to have voted for Bush so I MUST do it) is that the "terrorists" we're torturing are being DETAINED for 'suspected terrorist/insurgent' activities and have NOT been found guilty or tried in ANY account! It's awesome. "Well, he might be, I mean, they found him on the battle field, right!" Yes, just like all those WMD's we found. Come on guy, let's get serious...We've killed FAR MORE innocent civilians in Iraq than the 3,000 plus that died in 9/11...but, since we're the "good guys", they don't matter....so we're doing "WHAT'S RIGHT!" Right?

Wrong. We have become what the terrorists are. Lowly scum who stops at nothing to "get information", kills innocent civilians in the name of our "cause", tortures suspects or sends them to countries who where torture is legal, walks all over countries and U.N. authority with disregard for anyone but ourselves. :hitself:

Whether you choose to believe it or not: We are now the terrorists. We have become everything that we stereotyped they 'stood for'. It's pathetic, silly, and people like you only perpetuate more ignorance. Meet some new people. Do some research. Don't allow false religious beliefs to influence reality based decisions...and WE pray...you will see.

[sutoazul]

"When Hiroshima and Nagasaki were leveled in '45 it sent a message to the people of Japan...put pressure on your government to surrender...or face more destruction."

I bet Osama would like to use the same tactic. So yes, I think it was wrong to drop those weapons on those cities.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

What value does releasing the video/pictures now??? By releasing them we might put American at greater risk through out the world.

It's not like the acts depicted in those photos are any big secret to people throughout the rest of the world (particularly in the Muslim world where people are living with the reality of such acts on a daily basis.)

Only in America are people are being kept in the dark and fed a steady diet of sh_t by the conservative-owned corporate media.