Rookie Corners/Champ [Archive] - The Orange Mane - a Denver Broncos Fan Community

Cleo McDowell

07-26-2005, 12:57 AM

So this came up in my mind. I remember when Champ was first brought in and was working the mini-camps and Sundquist threw something out like "so THIS is how a real cb looks." etc etc...

Seeing the past failures and bad luck denver has had in chosing db's, isn't it only right to assume the staff finally feels they now know how to chose star blue chip talent@cb? I mean with RB's it seems we got chosing the right talent down pat, LB's the same, OL, etc.. etc, etc..

Granted there is no guarantee that any rookie will pan out, but i think that we will see more and more success w/ our cornerbacks due to the fact that staff now has the real deal prototype cb to use as a cookie cutter in eyeing CB's. Sayin all that i feel very confident about our rookies coming in.

I think im still high.

Taco John

07-26-2005, 04:01 AM

So you're saying that now that we have Bailey, we should be good at drafting guys like him?

hmmm...

fontaine

07-26-2005, 04:16 AM

Well, this is where we need guys like Slowik to come in.

I believe there is a genuine lack of knowledge in Denver when it comes to drafting CBs. Whereas, they have guys like Turner etc who can pinpoint great talent in RBs, they simply don't have that know how in the secondary and our poor drafts picks have shown this. Hopefully, Slowik had some input into which DBs we drafted this time because we need some fresh ideas there.

kent156

07-26-2005, 05:03 AM

or having a elite corner helping out the younger guys can help as in years past the broncos had O' neal or spencer, but then again only time will tell.

TheReverend

07-26-2005, 09:39 AM

I just disagree that we havent been able to draft corners. O'Neal was much better than this board gives him credit for. Middlebrooks spent most of his time with the trainers, when healthy played very well, and I still think hes about to break out with a healthy season. Other than that recently we've drafted Shoate and LeSeuer? 2 more injury cases... we'll see what they got this year. We're obviously decent at scouting talent at CB considering we made Lenny Walls, Roc Alexander and Herndon solid players.

Out of the new additions: Paymah, Foxworth, Browner and even Williams, at least 2 will pan out and perform at a high level.

We have a bad rep because none of these idiot reporters can think for themselves. It's all "Tom Brady is incredible, and he's so handsome!" and Jim Rome clones.

PS. The Island is a bad ass movie.

footstepsfrom#27

07-26-2005, 09:44 AM

Anyone can draft a corner like Champ Bailey. All they need is a top 5 pick to do so because they are obvious. Denver's problem is finding guys that have the talent but haven't fully developed it yet. I can't imagine that having a great player suddenly fixes your scouting deficiencies. If these guys are pro scouts and don't know how to recognize talent, having talent won't help them.

BTW...it's not just corner we have problems with. Defensive line is just as big a problem. Other than Trevor Pryce, who have we drafted that's a true stud in the Shannahan era? Nobody.

Crushaholic

07-26-2005, 09:47 AM

So you're saying that now that we have Bailey, we should be good at drafting guys like him?

hmmm...

He admitted he was still high... :puff:

DBroncos4life

07-26-2005, 09:47 AM

If Slowik had anything to do with the Packers drafting Joey Thomas and Ahmad Carroll then we may end up being ok. I think those two will have solid NFL careers. I just haven't heard very many good things about Slowik though.

Billy Clyde Puckett

07-26-2005, 09:57 AM

BTW...it's not just corner we have problems with. Defensive line is just as big a problem. Other than Trevor Pryce, who have we drafted that's a true stud in the Shannahan era? Nobody.

Pryce is the only first round DL drafted by the Broncs since Shanahan has been here. Heyward was a third. Reagor was an undersized DT taken in the second and Toviessi was a second who go hurt, but was viewed as having great pass rush potential.

Play2win

07-26-2005, 10:25 AM

I think part of it might be that we had David Gibbs as our secondary coach. Now that he's gone, we'll start draft winners at the CB position. The more I think about it, (David) Gibbs was just BAD NEWS, and I am ecstatic that he is off our team.

On a side note- I do think Foxworthy does Have alittle Champ in him. Watching that 15 min clip, at times, he reminded me alot of Champ. Made some gifted physical plays, but was also hard nosed enough to come in and Mix it up alot. I don't know where this lands Walls but if FOX can develop (and put on alittle weight), he has the skills, nice looking in coverage, speed and acceleration to burn, tackling ability and the desire to get his nose in the action, We might have a hell of a CB tandem for years to come!!

OrangeShadow

07-26-2005, 10:26 AM

Sure we know how. Turn a RB into a star trade him for a young CB like champ and a pick which turns into our next RB. rinse n repeat

footstepsfrom#27

07-26-2005, 10:34 AM

Pryce is the only first round DL drafted by the Broncs since Shanahan has been here. Heyward was a third. Reagor was an undersized DT taken in the second and Toviessi was a second who go hurt, but was viewed as having great pass rush potential.
Exactly my point.

ozomulsion

07-26-2005, 11:51 AM

I just disagree that we havent been able to draft corners. O'Neal was much better than this board gives him credit for. Middlebrooks spent most of his time with the trainers, when healthy played very well, and I still think hes about to break out with a healthy season. Other than that recently we've drafted Shoate and LeSeuer? 2 more injury cases... we'll see what they got this year. We're obviously decent at scouting talent at CB considering we made Lenny Walls, Roc Alexander and Herndon solid players.

Out of the new additions: Paymah, Foxworth, Browner and even Williams, at least 2 will pan out and perform at a high level.

That's just messed up to compare Roc to Herndon and Walls. Roc is about as solid as a bowl of pudding. Herndon and Walls played well as rookie starters. Before you say Roc was solid when he played, he had 12 freakin tackes the whole year. Most came in cleanup duty when we had a big lead.

Billy Clyde Puckett

07-26-2005, 12:36 PM

Exactly my point.

I guess my point was that the Broncs have not really failed when drafting DL, they just have not done it which is why they have 18 question marks in camp this year.

watermock

07-26-2005, 12:50 PM

I just disagree that we havent been able to draft corners.

Excuse me? You can't name a single one! Deltha, Middlebrooks, Brandon? Name one! Walls was undrafted, Bailey came in an expensive trade, Lynch was a FA, and Fergy was a FA. Even Herndon wasn't drafted. How about Eric Brown, he was released this year and is likely out of the league. Kenoy Kennedy was horrible in coverage till last year, and was overpaid by Seattle. You get the idiot of the week badge. Name one draft choice that's panned out at cornerback or safety. The whole lineup is free agents.

Drafting corners hasn't been a problem. Drafting corners that have been worth a lick has been.

Billy Clyde Puckett

07-26-2005, 12:53 PM

Name one draft choice that's panned out at cornerback or safety. .

Dennis Smith
Steve Atwater
And of course Tony Lilly :)

footstepsfrom#27

07-26-2005, 12:54 PM

I guess my point was that the Broncs have not really failed when drafting DL, they just have not done it which is why they have 18 question marks in camp this year.
Actually they've failed on two fronts, not investing enough in high draft choices as D-linemen, and failing to produce any real stars from later in the draft. Not every guy who makes it big is a top 10 pick. Our record in this is as dismal as the DB problem.

Billy Clyde Puckett

07-26-2005, 12:57 PM

Actually they've failed on two fronts, not investing enough in high draft choices as D-linemen, and failing to produce any real stars from later in the draft. Not every guy who makes it big is a top 10 pick. Our record in this is as dismal as the DB problem.

I agree Broncs need to draft and develop a few DL. I think I screamed louder here than anyone for DL in last two years' drafts and I am on record hoping they use both firsts next year on the DL with what appears to be an extremely strong group of prospects.

watermock

07-26-2005, 12:59 PM

Good Lord, that was in the 80's. Case closed. Using Atwater and Smith as examples of good drafting is like telling me McArthur was a good General.

watermock

07-26-2005, 01:09 PM

If the skins give us a high pick, we simply take the best athlete. I think we will be able to sort thru the DL and field a much better unit, but a kickass LT or DT next year wouldn't hurt.

Our left side is pretty weak sizewise with Lepsis and Hamilton. Let's play our cards this year and hope the skins fall on their faces. If Portis goes down, and he's been worked way to hard, they will really tumble. I don't wish Portis to get hurt at all, but he's being used way wrong. I like Clinton, always have liked his fight, but he can't last if Gibbs is going to use him like John Riggins. He's not that kind of back.

Play2win

07-26-2005, 01:15 PM

I guess my point was that the Broncos have not really failed when drafting DL, they just have not done it which is why they have 18 question marks in camp this year.
Its Crazy, I think some guys just like to criticize the Bronco's in any way they can. I guess it kind of goes down the same vein as Belittling others, so they look or feel better or more important about themselves (the need to raise one's self esteem).

Me, I just want whoever we draft or acquire to be successful. Be it Maurice Clarett, BVP, GOLD, Warren, Courtney Brown, Darrent Williams, Foxworthy, Jerry Rice, Ron Dayne or Sauerbrun. I don't want them all just to be good, I want them all to Kick livid AZZ.

I could care less whats happened in the past. I want them to be successful in the present and into the future. I don't use Negatives from the past as Excuses to criticize MY TEAM.

I want The Broncos to Win and I want every member of the team to be successful. Who cares what they have done in the past, just as long as they are, or whoever we draft is, successful NOW. Its all about the HERE and NOW. If everybody on our team lives (plays) for the HERE and NOW, we're all going to have a great season, a very possible deep playoff run, and maybe, just possibly, be playing on Superbowl Sunday!!! :militia:

rbackfactory80

07-26-2005, 01:20 PM

You can have all the best players in the world but knowing how to use them is the difficult part.

Billy Clyde Puckett

07-26-2005, 01:21 PM

Its Crazy, I think some guys just like to criticize the Bronco's in any way they can. I guess it kind of goes down the same vein as Belittling others, so they look or feel better or more important about themselves (the need to raise one's self esteem).

Me, I just want whoever we draft or acquire to be successful. Be it Maurice Clarett, BVP, GOLD, Warren, Courtney Brown, Darrent Williams, Foxworthy, Jerry Rice, Ron Dayne or Sauerbrun. I don't want them all just to be good, I want them all to Kick livid AZZ.

I could care less whats happened in the past. I want them to be successful in the present and into the future. I don't use Negatives from the past as Excuses to criticize MY TEAM.

I want The Broncos to Win and I want every member of the team to be successful. Who cares what they have done in the past, just as long as they are, or whoever we draft is, successful NOW. Its all about the HERE and NOW. If everybody on our team lives (plays) for the HERE and NOW, we're all going to have a great season, a very possible deep playoff run, and maybe, just possibly, be playing on Superbowl Sunday!!! :militia:

I agree whole heartedly. !Booya!

Mediator12

07-26-2005, 01:45 PM

That's just messed up to compare Roc to Herndon and Walls. Roc is about as solid as a bowl of pudding. Herndon and Walls played well as rookie starters. Before you say Roc was solid when he played, he had 12 freakin tackes the whole year. Most came in cleanup duty when we had a big lead.

Herndon and Walls sat on the PS and INactive for their first year. They were not Rookie starters.

ozomulsion

07-26-2005, 01:57 PM

Herndon and Walls sat on the PS and INactive for their first year. They were not Rookie starters.

Roc will never be half the corner of Herndon or Walls.

Mediator12

07-26-2005, 02:13 PM

Roc will never be half the corner of Herndon or Walls.

Maybe not, but he played well until King Manning and Reggie Wayne lit him up like the fourth of July in the Dome. I am not sure how good Lenny will be yet ( I am really pulling for him), but Kelly is better than average and I wish they had offered him a higher qulifying offer to rent him for the year at least.

It's all about Paymah NOW anyways :homer:

Play2win

07-26-2005, 02:28 PM

Maybe not, but he played well until King Manning and Reggie Wayne lit him up like the fourth of July in the Dome. I am not sure how good Lenny will be yet ( I am really pulling for him), but Kelly is better than average and I wish they had offered him a higher qulifying offer to rent him for the year at least.

It's all about Paymah NOW anyways :homer:
What about FOX?!?

After watching that video, That Man looks highly impressive. Will mix it up, fast, fluid transitions and just looks the part.

I can not wait to see some of these guys in action!!!

TheReverend

07-26-2005, 02:31 PM

Herndon and Walls sat on the PS and INactive for their first year. They were not Rookie starters.

Thank you for making my point... I was at work, glad to know there's never a shortage of great posters here.

Lestat

07-26-2005, 02:56 PM

i think the main problem the Broncos had with drafting CB's is they drafted athletes instead of true CB's that can cover

Deltha was good but he just had so many mental lapses & wanted INT's instead of settling for breaking up passes

watermock

07-26-2005, 03:01 PM

I don't think we were comfortable with our corners or we wouldn't of spent our three top picks on them, plus sign a FA in Browner.

Next.

Drek

07-26-2005, 03:33 PM

O'Neal was much better than this board gives him credit for. O'Neal has very poor ball awareness. He'll never be a CB equal to his talent because of that. He would have been an amazing FS though I think, where he'd get to play facing the ball most of the time.

ozomulsion

07-26-2005, 04:00 PM

Thank you for making my point... I was at work, glad to know there's never a shortage of great posters here.

If you think that your point about Roc being a solid find at CB. You're dulusional.

footstepsfrom#27

07-26-2005, 10:10 PM

Its Crazy, I think some guys just like to criticize the Bronco's in any way they can. I guess it kind of goes down the same vein as Belittling others, so they look or feel better or more important about themselves (the need to raise one's self esteem).
You're kidding, right? I can't speak for anyone else but trust me when I tell you that when I criticize the Broncos it's because as a long time fan I think A) they deserve it, and B) I've earned the right to do so from supporting them 36 years. It has absolutely diddly-doo-da-sqat to do with needing to raise my self esteem. If my self esteem needed a boost, which it doesn't, I'd hardly feel the need to use an on-line sports forum to achieve that. Being a great fan is not about keeping your yap shut and just going along with whatever happens. It's about passionately following the team and if you want to express a negative view point, that's your right because that's just part of the game.

UltimateHoboW/Shotgun

07-26-2005, 11:00 PM

How many times do I have to say this. Pro-bowlers are not bust. O'neal made the pro-bowl and played well for a while. Now he may of sucked at the end and cost us a couple of really, really, really really important games, but he also played well in some games too.

Pat Bowlen

07-27-2005, 12:00 AM

Anybody who wants to argue how good Deltha might be/could have been is welcome to also arguing what we should have done with him. I never really hated the guy, I'm just drunk and want to know how you would have solved the problem.

bpc

07-27-2005, 12:11 AM

I think Denver's drafting is going in a great direction with the CB's. They are getting are getting hard nosed, fast, gritty players to muck it up a little bit. Roc Alexander could end of being a very good player for us. I don't buy the hype that because he had one terrible game that he will never be a good player. If that were true, how did we win with Darrien Gordon at corner?

I think we might have missed with Schoate and LaSueur last year. Time will tell but we'll see. I do however think that Roc has the ability to really help us out, and I love the ball hawking, big play ability that D. Williams is going to bring to our squad. I also think that Paymah will be easily better then Middlebrooks and that Foxworth is going to be a steal for us.

All the while we are discussing our young players, we haven't even mentioned that none of these guys are our starters. Bailey and Walls (if healthy and with our potential pass rush) are going to be two of the best bookend corners this year. I think this is the year we finally turn the T.O. corner.

Personally, I love the mix of Bailey, Walls, D. Williams and Foxworth in our dime packages. I think there is so much talent there.

footstepsfrom#27

07-27-2005, 03:38 AM

fontaine

07-27-2005, 03:48 AM

It remains to be seen if all this speed equals talent. I've seen some terrible corners with great speed. However, it is a nice departure from the past where our secondary has been pretty slow. I don't see Shoate or LaSueur as fitting in this defense, certainly not at CB, though LaSueur might have a shot to stick at safety depending on how many we keep. Payma is the guy who might ultimately take the starting job if Walls doesn't stay healthy or perform well. I think he's behind Foxworth at the moment but 20 pounds is a nice advantage if you're not giving away much in the speed department. Plus he's experienced as a press cover guy. I don't know that Foxworth is big enough to do that. I like Williams potential as a pass thief in the dime, expecially since he has the big play return aspect going for him. We can live and die with the young guys as long as we get an up front pass rush that's several notches higher than what we've had previously. That remains to be seen also.

I agree. I like the fact that we have a lot of versatility there. Obviously Paymah, Foxworth and Williams will have to show they are capable of playing in nickel packages but I like how each player is suited for different types of WRs. Williams has great explosion and can really shadow his receiver and fits very well in covering smaller, shifty receivers whereas guys like Paymah and Foxworth should be able to handle the bigger, taller WRs like Lelie.

I think the coaching staff has faith in these players otherwise if they thought they would no be ready to play nickel then they would have been reluctant to trade Middlebrooks given that we already had a dozen and more DLs.

Drek

07-27-2005, 04:20 AM

I could see Paymah and Foxworth viewed as our future #2's, with Williams as a PR/KR/nickle back, but I think that plan will get busted. Not in a bad way though, I just really like Williams. He might be short but he has elite speed, leaping ability, and great ball awareness. He's perfect for covering deep routes in today's NFL were the WRs have to be treated with kiddie gloves anyways.

I think we did a really good job drafting our CBs this year towards the new NFL rules actually. If you can't bang WRs and get physical with them slower CBs will get lost quickly (or flagged). We needed guys who can run with any WR in the league, and now we have three of them, not to mention the best CB in the NFL, Champ.

bpc

07-27-2005, 05:34 AM

Our squad has a lot more grit after bringing in this class of CB's. I think they also have a lot of savy about them, they've all been starting a long time on the college level. I doubt they will be headcases like O'Neal was, often battling himself after giving up plays.

kent156

07-27-2005, 05:44 AM

i think i had it with Oneal after that patriots game at home when he return that kick for a TD then gave up one.

We'll find out pretty fast about these cornerbacks if they can't compete with Smith or lelie in training camp it's basically a wash. I remember Walls holding up well against Smith and eddie mac in camp then continued that in the regular season.

Mediator12

07-27-2005, 06:03 AM

kent156

07-27-2005, 06:13 AM

yeah but i'm talking about cornerbacks and not WR's, Madise comes to mind too. Cornerbacks you know right away if they are good or not.

x123z

07-27-2005, 06:25 AM

We don't need hard hitting corners. Today's game penalize hard hitters.

footstepsfrom#27

07-27-2005, 08:20 AM

We don't need hard hitting corners. Today's game penalize hard hitters.
So we start drafting pansies instead? I don't think so. :crazy:

clarker

07-27-2005, 08:56 AM

Excuse me? You can't name a single one! Deltha, Middlebrooks, Brandon? Name one! Walls was undrafted, Bailey came in an expensive trade, Lynch was a FA, and Fergy was a FA. Even Herndon wasn't drafted. How about Eric Brown, he was released this year and is likely out of the league. Kenoy Kennedy was horrible in coverage till last year, and was overpaid by Seattle. You get the idiot of the week badge. Name one draft choice that's panned out at cornerback or safety. The whole lineup is free agents.

Drafting corners hasn't been a problem. Drafting corners that have been worth a lick has been.Eric Brown is starting for the Texans and is playing pretty good. The Texans have a decent defense. Not Great, but it keeps them in most games.