Abu Grhaib was just a college Prank ..... My ass

[Spider]

We have seen a few here defend Abu Grhaib as a "College Prank" Nothing serious , So what they put Panties on a guys head , big deal .......
I dont know what College Errand and Rush , and a few others went to, but damn glad I didnt go .......
http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000990590
Pentagon Blocks Release of Abu Ghraib Images: Here's Why

By Greg Mitchell

Published: July 23, 2005 6:00 PM ET

NEW YORK So what is shown on the 87 photographs and four videos from Abu Ghraib prison that the Pentagon, in an eleventh hour move, blocked from release this weekend? One clue: Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld told Congress last year, after viewing a large cache of unreleased images: "I mean, I looked at them last night, and they're hard to believe.” They show acts "that can only be described as blatantly sadistic, cruel and inhumane," he added.

A Republican Senator suggested the same day they contained scenes of “rape and murder.” No wonder Rumsfeld commented then, "If these are released to the public, obviously it's going to make matters worse."

Yesterday, news emerged that lawyers for the Pentagon had refused to cooperate with a federal judge's order to release dozens of unseen photographs and videos from Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq by Saturday. The photos were among thousands turned over by the key “whistleblower” in the scandal, Specialist Joseph M. Darby. Just a few that were released to the press sparked the Abu Ghraib abuse scandal last year, and the video images are said to be even more shocking.

The Pentagon lawyers said in a letter sent to the federal court in Manhattan that they would file a sealed brief explaining their reasons for not turning over the material. They had been ordered to do so by a federal judge in response to a FOIA lawsuit filed by the American Civil Liberties Union. The ACLU accused the government Friday of putting another legal roadblock in the way of its bid to allow the public to see the images of the prisoner abuse scandal.

One Pentagon lawyer has argued that they should not be released because they would only add to the humiliation of the prisoners. But the ACLU has said the faces of the victims can easily be "redacted."

To get a sense of what may be shown in these images, one has to go back to press reports from when the Abu Ghraib abuse scandal was still front page news.

[Spider]

This is how CNN reported it on May 8, 2004, in a typical account that day:

“U.S. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld revealed Friday that videos and ‘a lot more pictures’ exist of the abuse of Iraqis held at Abu Ghraib prison.

"’If these are released to the public, obviously it's going to make matters worse,’ Rumsfeld told the Senate Armed Services Committee. ‘I mean, I looked at them last night, and they're hard to believe.’

“The embattled defense secretary fielded sharp and skeptical questions from lawmakers as he testified about the growing prisoner abuse scandal. A military report about that abuse describes detainees being threatened, sodomized with a chemical light and forced into sexually humiliating poses.

“Charges have been brought against seven service members, and investigations into events at the prison continue.

“Military investigators have looked into -- or are continuing to investigate -- 35 cases of alleged abuse or deaths of prisoners in detention facilities in the Central Command theater, according to Army Secretary Les Brownlee. Two of those cases were deemed homicides, he said.

"’The American public needs to understand we're talking about rape and murder here. We're not just talking about giving people a humiliating experience,’ Republican Sen. Lindsey Graham of South Carolina told reporters after Rumsfeld testified before the Senate Armed Services Committee. ’We're talking about rape and murder -- and some very serious charges.’

“A report by Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba on the abuse at the prison outside Baghdad says videotapes and photographs show naked detainees, and that groups of men were forced to masturbate while being photographed and videotaped. Taguba also found evidence of a ‘male MP guard having sex with a female detainee.’

“Rumsfeld told Congress the unrevealed photos and videos contain acts 'that can only be described as blatantly sadistic, cruel and inhuman.’”

The military later screened some of the images for lawmakers, who said they showed, among other things, attack dogs snarling at cowed prisoners, Iraqi women forced to expose their breasts, and naked prisoners forced to have sex with each other.

In the same period, reporter Seymour Hersh, who helped uncover the scandal, said in a speech before an ACLU convention: “Some of the worse that happened that you don't know about, ok? Videos, there are women there. Some of you may have read they were passing letters, communications out to their men….The women were passing messages saying ‘Please come and kill me, because of what's happened.’

“Basically what happened is that those women who were arrested with young boys/children in cases that have been recorded. The boys were sodomized with the cameras rolling. The worst about all of them is the soundtrack of the boys shrieking that your government has. They are in total terror it's going to come out.”

[Spider]

I hope to hell this is overblown .....

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I hope to hell this is overblown .....

Unfortunately, it isn't. These photos were made availible to members of the Senate a year ago.

But BushCo's lapdog media has done a good job of keeping the story off the front page since Abu Ghraib initally became news.

[clarker]

This makes me ill and I hope none of my fellow Republicans try to defend this. I always thought the other pictures not released to the public were more of the same(naked pyrimids(sp?) and the such.) but this makes me want to puke.

As with the Rove thing I think they need to go after these guys from the bottom up. I can't believe that these young kids acted on their own. There has to be some upper level commanders who gave the order for this.

[Spider]

This makes me ill and I hope none of my fellow Republicans try to defend this.
Errand will ...... It is all done in the name of fighting terror


I always thought the other pictures not released to the public were more of the same(naked pyrimids(sp?) and the such.) but this makes me want to puke.
I agree , but Blackwater security , Dynacorp , Bush admin need the blame ... Troops are people like us , and I reduse to think Americans did without alot of brain washing ....

As with the Rove thing I think they need to go after these guys from the bottom up. I can't believe that these young kids acted on their own. There has to be some upper level commanders who gave the order for this.
They wont , the grunts will take the fal while Dynacorp and Blackwater security continue on collecting pay .......
I knew this outsourcing of the military was bad

[clarker]

Errand will ...... It is all done in the name of fighting terror



I agree , but Blackwater security , Dynacorp , Bush admin need the blame ... Troops are people like us , and I reduse to think Americans did without alot of brain washing ....


They wont , the grunts will take the fal while Dynacorp and Blackwater security continue on collecting pay .......
I knew this outsourcing of the military was badI think the grunts should take the fall as well. My Dad who was a Lt. Col. in the guard, explained it like this after watching the movie "A Few Good Men" You have to follow orders, but if it is an illeagle or immoral order, it is your duty not to follow it. So I don't think the Grunts can be let off the hook. But those who gave the order should pay as well.

[Spider]

I think the grunts should take the fall as well. My Dad who was a Lt. Col. in the guard, explained it like this after watching the movie "A Few Good Men" You have to follow orders, but if it is an illeagle or immoral order, it is your duty not to follow it. So I don't think the Grunts can be let of the hook. But those who gave the order should pay as well.
agreed as long as everyone involved takes the rap

[clarker]

agreed as long as everyone involved takes the rap
Agreed. But I don't see it happening. Rummy offered to resign 3 times over this and Bush turned him down so I don't see any real accountability happening.

I wish you Dems would have put up Lieberman or even Edwards up in 2004. I was on the fence with Bush, but couldn't bring myself to vote for Kerry.

[Spider]

Agreed. But I don't see it happening. Rummy offered to resign 3 times over this and Bush turned him down so I don't see any real accountability happening.

I wish you Dems would have put up Lieberman or even Edwards up in 2004. I was on the fence with Bush, but couldn't bring myself to vote for Kerry.
We did Put Edwards up he lost the primaries ......
I dont believe Rummy when he says that

[clarker]

We did Put Edwards up he lost the primaries ......
I dont believe Rummy when he says thatI know Edwards lost in the primaries. That is what I meant you guys should have voted for someone better than Kerry in your primaries.

Not a big fan of Rummy, so I won't defend him.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Errand will ...... It is all done in the name of fighting terror

Him and his little buddy watercrock.

Pentagon Blocks Release of Abu Ghraib Images: Here's Why

NEW YORK So what is shown on the 87 photographs and four videos from Abu Ghraib prison that the Pentagon, in an eleventh hour move, blocked from release this weekend? One clue: Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld told Congress last year, after viewing a large cache of unreleased images: "I mean, I looked at them last night, and they're hard to believe.” They show acts "that can only be described as blatantly sadistic, cruel and inhumane," he added.

A Republican Senator suggested the same day they contained scenes of “rape and murder.” No wonder Rumsfeld commented then, "If these are released to the public, obviously it's going to make matters worse."

To get a sense of what may be shown in these images, one has to go back to press reports from when the Abu Ghraib abuse scandal was still front page news.

“The embattled defense secretary fielded sharp and skeptical questions from lawmakers as he testified about the growing prisoner abuse scandal. A military report about that abuse describes detainees being threatened, sodomized with a chemical light and forced into sexually humiliating poses.

The military later screened some of the images for lawmakers, who said they showed, among other things, attack dogs snarling at cowed prisoners, Iraqi women forced to expose their breasts, and naked prisoners forced to have sex with each other.

In the same period, reporter Seymour Hersh, who helped uncover the scandal, said in a speech before an ACLU convention: “Some of the worse that happened that you don't know about, ok? Videos, there are women there. Some of you may have read they were passing letters, communications out to their men….The women were passing messages saying ‘Please come and kill me, because of what's happened.’

“Basically what happened is that those women who were arrested with young boys/children in cases that have been recorded. The boys were sodomized with the cameras rolling. The worst about all of them is the soundtrack of the boys shrieking that your government has. They are in total terror it's going to come out.”

http://editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000990590

[Blueflame]

Agreed. But I don't see it happening. Rummy offered to resign 3 times over this and Bush turned him down so I don't see any real accountability happening.

I wish you Dems would have put up Lieberman or even Edwards up in 2004. I was on the fence with Bush, but couldn't bring myself to vote for Kerry.

Edwards, Clark, or Dean might have had a better chance than Kerry... maybe. But Lieberman? I'm a diehard Dem, but I'd have had to choose a third-party candidate if that milquetoast DINO had made it through the primaries. Honestly, if he'd been the Dem candidate, Bush wouldn't have needed Diebold.

[clarker]

Edwards, Clark, or Dean might have had a better chance than Kerry... maybe. But Lieberman? I'm a diehard Dem, but I'd have had to choose a third-party candidate if that milquetoast DINO had made it through the primaries. Honestly, if he'd been the Dem candidate, Bush wouldn't have needed Diebold.Your most likely right, but Lieberman from what I know of him is liberal on social issues and conservative on National Security and the military, plus he strikes me as one of the more honest people in politics in either party.

Edwards ran too soon IMO. Other than he supports people who sue at the drop of dime, I kind of like him.

I don't know that much about Clark, so I won't make any judgments on him.

Dean is freaking nuts.

[Spider]

Your most likely right, but Lieberman from what I know of him is liberal on social issues and conservative on National Security and the military, plus he strikes me as one of the more honest people in politics in either party.

Edwards ran too soon IMO. Other than he supports people who sue at the drop of dime, I kind of like him.

I don't know that much about Clark, so I won't make any judgments on him.

Dean is freaking nuts.
Clark was the best choice ..... NATO supreme comander ...... Clark has a impeccable nose for war plans .......
what did Clark in he was a grass roots movment ....I would love to see Clark run again ........

[Montaq]

Your most likely right, but Lieberman from what I know of him is liberal on social issues and conservative on National Security and the military, plus he strikes me as one of the more honest people in politics in either party.

Edwards ran too soon IMO. Other than he supports people who sue at the drop of dime, I kind of like him.

I don't know that much about Clark, so I won't make any judgments on him.

Dean is freaking nuts.

Yeah that little girl who got caught in a faulty pool drain sure was sue-happy. The need for tort reform is one of the biggest falacies that the right perpetuates all the time.

[clarker]

Yeah that little girl who got caught in a faulty pool drain sure was sue-happy. The need for tort reform is one of the biggest falacies that the right perpetuates all the time.I know that lady who sued McDonalds after spilling coffee in her own lap, with the words "HOT COFFEE" on the cup is telling me all the time "The need for Tort Reform is one of the biggest falacies that the right perpertuates all the time."

[Montaq]

I know that lady who sued McDonalds after spilling coffee in her own lap, with the words "HOT COFFEE" on the cup is telling me all the time "The need for Tort Reform is one of the biggest falacies that the right perpertuates all the time."

A jury of her peers, saw the evidence and decided that McDonald's was liable. I don't pretend to know the specifics of the case but I do know that McDonald's was given their day in court.

I did find this interesting little site.

http://lawandhelp.com/q298-2.htm

McFact No. 1: For years, McDonald's had known they had a problem with the way they make their coffee - that their coffee was served much hotter (at least 20 degrees more so) than at other restaurants.

McFact No. 2: McDonald's knew its coffee sometimes caused serious injuries - more than 700 incidents of scalding coffee burns in the past decade have been settled by the Corporation - and yet they never so much as consulted a burn expert regarding the issue.

McFact No. 3: The woman involved in this infamous case suffered very serious injuries - third degree burns on her groin, thighs and buttocks that required skin grafts and a seven-day hospital stay.

McFact No. 4: The woman, an 81-year old former department store clerk who had never before filed suit against anyone, said she wouldn't have brought the lawsuit against McDonald's had the Corporation not dismissed her request for compensation for medical bills.

McFact No. 5: A McDonald's quality assurance manager testified in the case that the Corporation was aware of the risk of serving dangerously hot coffee and had no plans to either turn down the heat or to post warning about the possibility of severe burns, even though most customers wouldn't think it was possible.

McFact No. 6: After careful deliberation, the jury found McDonald's was liable because the facts were overwhelmingly against the company. When it came to the punitive damages, the jury found that McDonald's had engaged in willful, reckless, malicious, or wanton conduct, and rendered a punitive damage award of 2.7 million dollars. (The equivalent of just two days of coffee sales, McDonalds Corporation generates revenues in excess of 1.3 million dollars daily from the sale of its coffee, selling 1 billion cups each year.)

McFact No. 7: On appeal, a judge lowered the award to $480,000, a fact not widely publicized in the media.

McFact No. 8: A report in Liability Week, September 29, 1997, indicated that Kathleen Gilliam, 73, suffered first degree burns when a cup of coffee spilled onto her lap. Reports also indicate that McDonald's consistently keeps its coffee at 185 degrees, still approximately 20 degrees hotter than at other restaurants. Third degree burns occur at this temperature in just two to seven seconds, requiring skin grafting, debridement and whirlpool treatments that cost tens of thousands of dollars and result in permanent disfigurement, extreme pain and disability to the victims for many months, and in some cases, years.

[clarker]

A jury of her peers, saw the evidence and decided that McDonald's was liable. I don't pretend to know the specifics of the case but I do know that McDonald's was given their day in court.

I did find this interesting little site.

http://lawandhelp.com/q298-2.htmI don't give a rats ass what McDonalds knew or didn't. If your too stupid to realize that you have to be careful with hot f.cking coffee in a paper cup, then you deserve to get burned.

Same with people who sue them for getting to damn fat. "I didn't know that a Big Mac was fattening" Well, boo freaking hoo. Yeah if you eat Big Macs every day your going to become a fat a**and have a heart attack.

Same with smoking, hello, there have been warning lables on the packs since I can remember. "We didn't know it was addictive" Bullsh*t. You don't even need the warning lable to tell you that one.

[Montaq]

I don't give a rats ass what McDonalds knew or didn't. If your too stupid to realize that you have to be careful with hot f.cking coffee in a paper cup, then you deserve to get burned.

Same with people who sue them for getting to damn fat. "I didn't know that a Big Mac was fattening" Well, boo freaking hoo. Yeah if you eat Big Macs every day your going to become a fat a**and have a heart attack.

Same with smoking, hello, there have been warning lables on the packs since I can remember. "We didn't know it was addictive" Bullsh*t. You don't even need the warning lable to tell you that one.

So you're ready to do away with our trial by a jury of your peers system?

[clarker]

McFact No. 5: A McDonald's quality assurance manager testified in the case that the Corporation was aware of the risk of serving dangerously hot coffee and had no plans to either turn down the heat or to post warning about the possibility of severe burns, even though most customers wouldn't think it was possible

How f.cking dumb do you have to be to not know that hot coffee could burn you?

[clarker]

So you're ready to do away with our trial by a jury of your peers system?No, but come on even with the amount reduced to 480 grand it was still a joke.

At the most McDolads should have made to pay her medical bills.

At what point do people have to be accountable for the own dumb a** actions? Some one has to get a handle on this and it sure as hell won't be trial lawyers and judges.

[Spider]

No, but come on even with the amount reduced to 480 grand it was still a joke.

At the most McDolads should have made to pay her medical bills.

At what point do people have to be accountable for the own dumb a** actions? Some one has to get a handle on this and it sure as hell won't be trial lawyers and judges.
your beef then isnt with her , your beef is with the Jury .......

[Montaq]

No, but come on even with the amount reduced to 480 grand it was still a joke.

At the most McDolads should have made to pay her medical bills.

At what point do people have to be accountable for the own dumb a** actions? Some one has to get a handle on this and it sure as hell won't be trial lawyers and judges.

And at what point do corporations like McDonalds have to be accountable for their actions or lack of action?

The woman had said she wouldn't have brought about the suit if McDonalds had offered to help with her medical bills.

[Spider]

And at what point do corporations like McDonalds have to be accountable for their actions or lack of action?
;D when dealing with the right .Companies are never at fault ......

The woman had said she wouldn't have brought about the suit if McDonalds had offered to help with her medical bills.
:thumbsup:

[Montaq]

your beef then isnt with her , your beef is with the Jury .......

Exactly. It was a jury who awarded her the +2 million and a judge who reduced it.

[clarker]

And at what point do corporations like McDonalds have to be accountable for their actions or lack of action?

The woman had said she wouldn't have brought about the suit if McDonalds had offered to help with her medical bills.Ok, fine, but 480 grand is too much money for a lady who has live 81 years on this Earth and doesn't know that she could be burned by hot coffee.

I'm for everyone having the right to sue, but come on....

[clarker]

;D when dealing with the right .Companies are never at fault ......


:thumbsup:When dealing with the left no one is responsible for their own actions. Especially if we can find a way to pin on a company.



That is what the jury and or judge should have made them do. Make McDonalds pay her medical bills, but 480 grand in punitive damages? No.

[Spider]

That is what the jury and or judge should have made them do. Make McDonalds pay her medical bills, but 480 grand in punitive damages? No.
LOL . I see so this women has to put out for Medical bill neglecting other bills , and other needs..... and she should only be rewarded medical damages that should have been taken care of from the outset ....... She had to pay those bills from somewhere , dhe wasnt a rich woman , that means she had to give other things up due to someone elses neglegence ....... and you dont see a need to make that right ........

[Spider]

When dealing with the left no one is responsible for their own actions. Especially if we can find a way to pin on a company.
LOL , I see so she made her own coffee ...... When will you understand that your are responcible for the products you put out ?

[clarker]

LOL , I see so she made her own coffee ...... When will you understand that your are responcible for the products you put out ?

When you order coffee, do you expect it be cold or luke warm?

[Spider]

When you order coffee, do you expect it be cold or luke warm?
LOL asking a trucker about coffee ..... I expect the coffee to be hot , but not scalding hot , hot as in all it needs is creamer to make it drinkible .... Not peel the skin off ...........

[Spider]

I have drank coffee from all over the USA . I have had spills . never been burned like that ...... are you sure you still want to go down this road clarker ?

[clarker]

LOL asking a trucker about coffee ..... I expect the coffee to be hot , but not scalding hot , hot as in all it needs is creamer to make it drinkible .... Not peel the skin off ...........I don't know about you when I handle anything that his hot, not scalding hot, but just hot I use a little caution. You know why? Because if I spill it on my skin I might get burned.

If I don't know exactly how hot something is I'm even more carefull. It is common sense.

[Spider]

LOL ..... Little road stop truck stop in Alice texas , I was flirting with the gal as she was making coffee didnt put the filter in right coffee spilled everywhere , mainly on my arm ...... Still didnt get burnt like that ...

[Spider]

I don't know about you when I handle anything that his hot, not scalding hot, but just hot I use a little caution. You know why? Because if I spill it on my skin I might get burned.

If I don't know exactly how hot something is I'm even more carefull. It is common sense.
LOL ...... that right there tells me all i need to know .........

[clarker]

LOL ...... that right there tells me all i need to know .........And what exactly does that tell you, besides that if something I know is hot, I'm carefull with it?

[Garcia Bronco]

Agreed. But I don't see it happening. Rummy offered to resign 3 times over this and Bush turned him down so I don't see any real accountability happening.

I wish you Dems would have put up Lieberman or even Edwards up in 2004. I was on the fence with Bush, but couldn't bring myself to vote for Kerry.

Kerry, Edwards, Liebermann are all weak choices, IMO. I could have voted for Clark....I could have voted for McCain....But Edwards is probably the worst choice of them all.

[clarker]

LOL . I see so this women has to put out for Medical bill neglecting other bills , and other needs..... and she should only be rewarded medical damages that should have been taken care of from the outset ....... She had to pay those bills from somewhere , dhe wasnt a rich woman , that means she had to give other things up due to someone elses neglegence ....... and you dont see a need to make that right ........
Fine, make McDonalds pay her medical bills and any bills she couldn't pay because of her injuries. I would still bet that amount is far short of 480 grand.

[clarker]

Kerry, Edwards, Liebermann are all weak choices, IMO. I could have voted for Clark....I could have voted for McCain....But Edwards is probably the worst choice of them all.I would have voted for McCain.

[Rascal]

McFact No. 5: A McDonald's quality assurance manager testified in the case that the Corporation was aware of the risk of serving dangerously hot coffee and had no plans to either turn down the heat or to post warning about the possibility of severe burns, even though most customers wouldn't think it was possible

How f.cking dumb do you have to be to not know that hot coffee could burn you?

Did you actually read the case or not?

If you did you would know that the McDonald's in question had several complaints written up because there coffee was not just hot but scalding hot. People expect their coffee to be not, but not so hot as to give you a third degree burn after touching your skin for less then a second. That McDonalds store was negligent and they paid for it. It wasn't an issue of her not expecting the coffee to be hot, it was the extreme temperature that the coffee was at. McDonalds knew the coffee was too hot and did nothing to correct it.

Besides, the amount that was reported was not what the lady actually got. Thanks to a Statefarm v Utah the punitive amount is 10X the damages, so these extravagent amounts you hear are reduced by a judge to a reasonable amount. I'm going off the top of my head here but I'm pretty sure it's correct. Socal is this right?

[Rascal]

Fine, make McDonalds pay her medical bills and any bills she couldn't pay because of her injuries. I would still bet that amount is far short of 480 grand.

If that was done there would be no incentive for McDonalds to accept responsiblity, sometimes the only way to get companies to change there ways are by affecting the $$.

[clarker]

If that was done there would be no incentive for McDonalds to accept responsiblity, sometimes the only way to get companies to change there ways are by affecting the $$.What in incentive is there for the customer to be carefull with HOT COFFEE?

Seriously if you order something that is hot, but your not sure how hot, shouldn't you take caution? Do you really need a warning lable?

And don't tell me about McDonalds knew they had a problem with the cups. If you look at any cup at any fast food joint and not realize that they don't use the most sturdy cups in the world, then I don't feel that sorry for you.

[Montaq]

What in incentive is there for the customer to be carefull with HOT COFFEE?


Their incentive is not having 3rd degree burns.

[clarker]

Their incentive is not having 3rd degree burns.Well, no sh*t which is why when I'm handling something that is hot, I am carefull because if I spill it I might get burned.

If I don't know exactly how hot something is I'm even more carefull and I sure as hell don't trust any of those flimsy a** cups they give you at fast food places.

[Rascal]

What in incentive is there for the customer to be carefull with HOT COFFEE?

Seriously if you order something that is hot, but your not sure how hot, shouldn't you take caution? Do you really need a warning lable?

And don't tell me about McDonalds knew they had a problem with the cups. If you look at any cup at any fast food joint and not realize that they don't use the most sturdy cups in the world, then I don't feel that sorry for you.

Again, if it was just hot there wouldn't had been a problem. Do you expect to get 3rd degree burns from coffee? I don't. The coffee was scalding hot. And it wasn't a problem with the cups, it was a problem with that particular McDonalds store and that particular coffee maker. Heck, they went around and tested the temperature of all the surrounding McDonalds stores, gas stations, etc and found that particular McDonalds store served their coffee at an extremely higher temperature (I think it was close to 50 degrees). Do you even know the extremes of her burns? She had 3rd degree burns all over her crotch, hands, and upper legs.

That particular McDonalds store had been warned and told repeatedly that the coffee was scalding hot, and they did nothing about it. I have no sympathy for a dumbass company. Your job is serve the customer, and when the customer complains that their coffee is burning their mouth you should listen. If you don't listen then whatever punishment the jury decides is fine by me.

[clarker]

Again, if it was just hot there wouldn't had been a problem. Do you expect to get 3rd degree burns from coffee? I don't. The coffee was scalding hot. And it wasn't a problem with the cups, it was a problem with that particular McDonalds store and that particular coffee maker. Heck, they went around and tested the temperature of all the surrounding McDonalds stores, gas stations, etc and found that particular McDonalds store served their coffee at an extremely higher temperature (I think it was close to 50 degrees). Do you even know the extremes of her burns? She had 3rd degree burns all over her crotch, hands, and upper legs.

That particular McDonalds store had been warned and told repeatedly that the coffee was scalding hot, and they did nothing about it. I have no sympathy for a dumbass company. Your job is serve the customer, and when the customer complains that their coffee is burning their mouth you should listen. If you don't listen then whatever punishment the jury decides is fine by me.Accoring to Montaq's link it was only 20 degrees not close to 50.

Plus it says that McDonalds in general, not this particular one, serves there coffee hotter than the average fast food place.

[Rascal]

I think juror made the comment after the case was over that it wasn't an issue of the lady knowing the coffee was hot and she might get burnt. It was the fact that it was so much hotter and they knew about...and still did nothing. That screams of negligence.

20 degrees? I'm pretty sure I remembered the case saying close to 50. And I'm also pretty sure that this particular store was even warmer then the nearby McDonald stores. And I think the evidence supports that as by the fact that she got third degree burns, whileas the previous incidents only had first degree burns from a very similar situation.

The fact is this: The store had been warned repeatedly of their scalding coffee. They choose to ignore it or choose not to take action thus they were negligent. Eventually somebody was going to get burned. That was foreseeable. Negligence combined with foreseeability is a closed book case...hell I could win that in a court of law. Doesn't matter if you agree with it or not, the law is there to protect the consumer from negligent companies. It also doesn't matter if she was contributory negligence, as the current law stands if it is foreseeable that the plaintiff could have been negligent in it's use then the manufacturer or whatever is liable.

[clarker]

I think juror made the comment after the case was over that it wasn't an issue of the lady knowing the coffee was hot and she might get burnt. It was the fact that it was so much hotter and they knew about...and still did nothing. That screams of negligence.

20 degrees? I'm pretty sure I remembered the case saying close to 50. And I'm also pretty sure that this particular store was even warmer then the nearby McDonald stores. And I think the evidence supports that as by the fact that she got third degree burns, whileas the previous incidents only had first degree burns from a very similar situation.

The fact is this: The store had been warned repeatedly of their scalding coffee. They choose to ignore it or choose not to take action thus they were negligent. Eventually somebody was going to get burned. That was foreseeable. Negligence combined with foreseeability is a closed book case...hell I could win that in a court of law. Doesn't matter if you agree with it or not, the law is there to protect the consumer from negligent companies. It also doesn't matter if she was contributory negligence, as the current law stands if it is foreseeable that the plaintiff could have been negligent in it's use then the manufacturer or whatever is liable.If that is the way the law is set up then that it is dumb. If someone's negligence is contributory to their injuries that should be taken in account.

[Rascal]

It is taken to account in some jurisdictions. In some jurisdictions the law states that the plaintiff must be 50% contributory, some say 25%, some say none ie doesn't matter (california). Not sure what the laws are in that state, but apparently the jury decided that she didn't exceed that % (how they reach that % I don't know BTW). But I would have to agree with the decision (although the amount the jury awarded was insane but the judge reduced it to a more appropriate level).

Bascially what I think they do is okay the plaintiff is awarded 100,000. But she was 50% liable, so she only gets 50,000. It is different for each state but I think that is how it works for the majority. I'm more of a novice in law (only done three classes) so somebody like socal might be able to clarify.

If you have the time and are really interested, you should look the case up and read it.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Yeah that little girl who got caught in a faulty pool drain sure was sue-happy. The need for tort reform is one of the biggest falacies that the right perpetuates all the time.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Montaq again.

Amen! :thumbsup:

The Busheviks want to throw the baby out with the bath water and do it under the cover of "eliminating frivolous lawsuits."

When the bush sheep support the sort of "tort reform" envisioned by BushCo, they are supporting the creation of a state in which big business is allowed to pollute, poison, and otherwise harm individuals with impunity.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

But Lieberman? I'm a diehard Dem, but I'd have had to choose a third-party candidate if that milquetoast DINO had made it through the primaries.

That makes two of us.

http://www.bartcop.com/tutu-Lieberman-sm.jpg

[Rascal]

The need for tort reform is one of the biggest falacies that the right perpetuates all the time.

Just noticed this because the asswipe commented about it...but are you kidding? You seriously doubt that there is a need for tort reform.

[Montaq]

Just noticed this because the asswipe commented about it...but are you kidding? You seriously doubt that there is a need for tort reform.

I don't see a need. I will keep my trust in a 12 person jury to do the right thing over a corporation to do the right thing when the penalty for doing the wrong thing is insignificant to them.

[clarker]

I don't see a need. I will keep my trust in a 12 person jury to do the right thing over a corporation to do the right thing when the penalty for doing the wrong thing is insignificant to them.Just because someone or some company can afford to pay a huge amount of money in a lawsuit, doesn't make it fair to sue them for bullsh*t. reasons.

If someone has been harmed or a real fraud has been committed, but there are way to many people suing for dumb a** reasons just to get a chunk of cash.

[Montaq]

Just because someone or some company can afford to pay a huge amount of money in a lawsuit, doesn't make it fair to sue them for bullsh*t. reasons.

If someone has been harmed or a real fraud has been committed, but there are way to many people suing for dumb a** reasons just to get a chunk of cash.

Exactly. And I'm all for juries deciding which ones are bull**** and which ones are legitimate. If a jury can decide whether a man can live or die in a capital murder case, they damn sure can decide if a company was negligent or not.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Just noticed this because the asswipe commented about it...

Ratscal = an asswipe supporting an asswipe crime family in the WH.

[clarker]

Exactly. And I'm all for juries deciding which ones are bull**** and which ones are legitimate. If a jury can decide whether a man can live or die in a capital murder case, they damn sure can decide if a company was negligent or not.I agree every one should get a trial, but IMO if there were limits to how much punitve damages could be awarded then it would help kill greedy lawyers telling people to sue over dumb things.

It would be nice if juries and judges would just use common sense when awarding punitive damages, but alot of times this doesn't happen. IMO, we as a nation are very sue happy and I think that is a bad thing.

Just because a company, say the size of Wall-Mart can pay just about any amount to settle a lawsuit, that doesn't make it fair that they should have to hire a lawyer to fight a bullsh.t case. Judges have the right to throw cases out of court if they think there it has no merit(sp?).

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I don't see a need. I will keep my trust in a 12 person jury to do the right thing over a corporation to do the right thing when the penalty for doing the wrong thing is insignificant to them.

That really is the bottom line, isn't it?

Ignoramuses like ratscal want to give corporations all the power at the expense of the individual.

[Spider]

I agree every one should get a trial, but IMO if there were limits to how much punitve damages could be awarded then it would help kill greedy lawyers telling people to sue over dumb things.
??? ...... Makes no sence ...... My Dad got MErsa from the Wyoming Hospitial 400.00 a month in Meds 1600 a week in Nursing home care . would that be a stupid lawsuit ? How much does my Dad deserve ? Just Medical Bills ? ..... How about a person in a car wreck , that will have to live with pain ? are they only entitles to Medical Bills ?

It would be nice if juries and judges would just use common sense when awarding punitive damages, but alot of times this doesn't happen. IMO, we as a nation are very sue happy and I think that is a bad thing.
I see so a perfectly healthy young man in a bad car wreck is shít out of luck under your system ......

Just because a company, say the size of Wall-Mart can pay just about any amount to settle a lawsuit, that doesn't make it fair that they should have to hire a lawyer to fight a bullsh.t case. Judges have the right to throw cases out of court if they think there it has no merit(sp?).
Bullshít case huh , can you give me an example ? or you just saying Wal Mart should be able to operate how they see fit and not worry about law suits ?

[Montaq]

I agree every one should get a trial, but IMO if there were limits to how much punitve damages could be awarded then it would help kill greedy lawyers telling people to sue over dumb things.

It would be nice if juries and judges would just use common sense when awarding punitive damages, but alot of times this doesn't happen. IMO, we as a nation are very sue happy and I think that is a bad thing.

Just because a company, say the size of Wall-Mart can pay just about any amount to settle a lawsuit, that doesn't make it fair that they should have to hire a lawyer to fight a bullsh.t case. Judges have the right to throw cases out of court if they think there it has no merit(sp?).

Says who that the punitive damages are too high? You, Bush and the corporations? Who sets the limits? The lobbyist? How can you pre-determine a set amount of punitive damages before a damage ever occurs? How many civil trials have you sat in on or even watched in entirety on Court TV to know without a doubt that the punitive damages were too high?

Why is the jury system ok when sending someone to death row but flawed when determining civil cases? It's an imperfect system but it's still the best system there is.

All I know, is when I lose an arm or worse yet, a loved one, because of someone else's negligence I don't want some lobbyist determing how much my pain and suffering was.

BTW - Wal-Mart settles with NOONE, ever.

[clarker]

Says who that the punitive damages are too high? You, Bush and the corporations? Who sets the limits? The lobbyist? How can you pre-determine a set amount of punitive damages before a damage ever occurs? How many civil trials have you sat in on or even watched in entirety on Court TV to know without a doubt that the punitive damages were too high?

Why is the jury system ok when sending someone to death row but flawed when determining civil cases? It's an imperfect system but it's still the best system there is.

All I know, is when I lose an arm or worse yet, a loved one, because of someone else's negligence I don't want some lobbyist determing how much my pain and suffering was.

BTW - Wal-Mart settles with NOONE, ever.Why do libs think corporations are so evil. I mean is it jealousy? That has nothing to do with this really, but I have always wondered why.

So what if Wal-Mart never settles. They still have to pay lawyers to fight a lawsuit even if that lawsuit is a joke.

You say why is a jury trial ok for murder cases but not civil cases. I agree with that, but their limits on punishments for different crimes. Like running a stop sign. In the state I live in the most they can fine you is $75 bucks( I think they may have raised it). So why can't they put limits on punitive damages.

[Montaq]

Why do libs think corporations are so evil. I mean is it jealousy? That has nothing to do with this really, but I have always wondered why.

So what if Wal-Mart never settles. They still have to pay lawyers to fight a lawsuit even if that lawsuit is a joke.

You say why is a jury trial ok for murder cases but not civil cases. I agree with that, but their limits on punishments for different crimes. Like running a stop sign. In the state I live in the most they can fine you is $75 bucks( I think they may have raised it). So why can't they put limits on punitive damages.

When was the last time you had a jury trial for running a stop sign?

I don't have a problem with Wal-Mart never settling. I respect it actually. If more corporations took that stance there would be less bogus lawsuits.

My distrust of corporations doesn't have anything to do with jealousy but of track record. I've not noticed many corporations do the right thing on their own unless a profit could be turned for doing it.

[Montaq]

P.S. - If you think that a cap on malpractice damages will result in lower insurance premiums or lower healthcare, you're sadly mistaken.

[clarker]

When was the last time you had a jury trial for running a stop sign?

I don't have a problem with Wal-Mart never settling. I respect it actually. If more corporations took that stance there would be less bogus lawsuits.

My distrust of corporations does have anything to do with jealousy but of track record. I've not noticed many corporations do the right thing on their own unless a profit could be turned for doing it.Well, in my state their limits for DUI as well. I have never had one but I know plenty of people who have and there is a maxium sentence for each offense.

The stop sign example was just the first thing that popped into my head. But you can go trial for it, hell you can demand a trial for a speeding ticket, but almost everyone just pleads guilty on the spot and pays ticket.

Corporations do everything to help the bottom line. That is true, because that is what their in buisness to do. Even when they donate to charity it is most likely because of free good press and tax write offs. I say so what. If the charity gets a good donation, what do I care if they write it off in taxes or get some free pub?

Even though I am social liberal, I don't think I could ever become a Dem, because to me they play the class warfare game to much. I am not saying you or Spider, it is the Dems that run for office I'm talking about.

[clarker]

P.S. - If you think that a cap on malpractice damages will result in lower insurance premiums or lower healthcare, you're sadly mistaken.It wouldn't cure the problem, but it wouldn't hurt.

[Montaq]

Well, in my state their limits for DUI as well. I have never had one but I know plenty of people who have and there is a maxium sentence for each offense.

The stop sign example was just the first thing that popped into my head. But you can go trial for it, hell you can demand a trial for a speeding ticket, but almost everyone just pleads guilty on the spot and pays ticket.

Corporations do everything to help the bottom line. That is true, because that is what their in buisness to do. Even when they donate to charity it is most likely because of free good press and tax write offs. I say so what. If the charity gets a good donation, what do I care if they write it off in taxes or get some free pub?

Even though I am social liberal, I don't think I could ever become a Dem, because to me they play the class warfare game to much. I am not saying you or Spider, it is the Dems that run for office I'm talking about.

How about this then. We let the people who are convicted of DUI's set the maximum limit of their punishment?

[clarker]

How about this then. We let the people who are convicted of DUI's set the maximum limit of their punishment?I think by this you mean that corportations would lobby to set the limits of punishments. Fair point if that is what you made.

But don't you think class actions lawyers wouldn't do the same? I say they are already do by lobbing congress to never look at tort reform. After all they make a ton of money when their clients make are awarded a ton of money.

Are they not lobyist as well.

[Montaq]

I think by this you mean that corportations would lobby to set the limits of punishments. Fair point if that is what you made.

But don't you think class actions lawyers wouldn't do the same? I say they are already do by lobbing congress to never look at tort reform. After all they make a ton of money when their clients make are awarded a ton of money.

Are they not lobyist as well.

That was the point I was making.

I'm not that familiar with the amount of lobbying that lawyers do in DC. I guess I've always figured that there wasn't tort reform because most politicians are lawyers and because it wasn't really anything anyone was talking about until the last election.

It seemed like it became a big issue shortly after Kerry named Edwards as his running mate. ???

[clarker]

That was the point I was making.

I'm not that familiar with the amount of lobbying that lawyers do in DC. I guess I've always figured that there wasn't tort reform because most politicians are lawyers and because it wasn't really anything anyone was talking about until the last election.

It seemed like it became a big issue shortly after Kerry named Edwards as his running mate. ???
But you would admit that is possible that the reason congress has never really even put it up for debate could be the money class actions lawyers give to both parties. I'm not trying to blame the Dems on this.

I think Ewards is a decent guy and has done some great things for people. I would bet more times than not he didn't do them for free though. Perhaps a few time he has waived his per hour wage, but I bet he also got a healthy chunk of the settlement as well. So I think that is a big reason why he is not for tort reform.

These lawyers are making a killing and corporations are not the only ones who do things for money.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Why do libs think corporations are so evil.

This is a distortion of the truth. Liberals don't claim that corporations are intrinsically evil or bad. By the same token, all you have to do is look at Enron or WorldCom or Halliburton to see real examples of the crooked things corporations do when they are not subject to regulations that protect average citizens.

The problem today is that right-wingers have been conditioned to believe government is inherently evil, and, consequently, vote for crooks like Reagan and Bush who pretend to share their values but who actually want corporations to be the government.

[clarker]

This is a distortion of the truth. Liberals don't claim that corporations are intrinsically evil or bad. By the same token, all you have to do is look at Enron or WorldCom or Halliburton to see real examples of the crooked things corporations do when they are not subject to regulations that protect average citizens.

The problem today is that right-wingers have been conditioned to believe government is inherently evil, and, consequently, vote for crooks like Reagan and Bush who pretend to share their values but who actually want corporations to be the government.I don't think government is inherently evil. I think they get into to much of our buisness and I would say that goes for both parties.

I also think it is pretty arrogant when libs say we have been conditioned to believe anything. What about you libs, you told by your leadership that buisness is bad. They are evil, trying to make money. Blah, blah, blah.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I also think it is pretty arrogant when libs say we have been conditioned to believe anything.

It's not arrogance - its just a statement of fact.

Reagan was able to convince large numbers of people that "government is the problem." Little did those people know that he wasn't simply talking about how government was a problem for average working and middle-class Americans - he was talking about how government was an impediment to the activities of the Enrons and the WorldComs and the other corporate robber barons who run our government today (thanks to Saint Ron's efforts to pave their way.)


What about you libs, you told by your leadership that buisness is bad. They are evil, trying to make money. Blah, blah, blah.

But that isn't our position. We aren't being "told" any such thing.

[clarker]

It's not arrogance - its just a statement of fact.

Reagan was able to convince large numbers of people that "government is the problem." Little did those people know that he wasn't simply talking about how government was a problem for average working and middle-class Americans - he was talking about how government was an impediment to the activities of the Enrons and the WorldComs and the other corporate robber barons who run our government today (thanks to Saint Ron's efforts to pave their way.)



But that isn't our position. We aren't being "told" any such thing.It is arrogance because you assume we are just sheep who believed what ever we are told by Reagan or Bush, instead of voting for Bush because we agreed with their stances to begin with.

I have never ever seen you post one thing about the Democratic party that was critical. Too you they can do no wrong. You believe that any idea put forth by a republican is bad any by a Dem is of course good.

I on the other hand have been very critical of Bush on various things and agreed with him on others. I have gave Dems credit when I feel they merit and bash the Republicans when I feel they deserve it.

Of the two of us I would say you are the brainwashed one.

Not trying to be mean, but that is how I see it.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

It is arrogance because you assume we are just sheep who believed what ever we are told by Reagan or Bush, instead of voting for Bush because we agreed with their stances to begin with.

No, it isn't arrogance insofar as there were/are plenty of people who do believe whatever they were/are told by Saint Ron and Bush - even if you don't consider yourself to be one of those people.

I have never ever seen you post one thing about the Democratic party that was critical. Too you they can do no wrong. You believe that any idea put forth by a republican is bad any by a Dem is of course good.

If you haven't read anything I've written that was critical of the Democratic Party, then you haven't been paying attention.

But why would I (or anyone) want to spend a lot of time doing this at a time when when the Republicans control all three branches of government, i.e., own all the marbles?

Why would anyone in his right mind want to spend much time worrying about the Democrats when the most criminal administration in American history is currently wreaking havoc on America and the rest of the world?

You are like a guy who is watching a murder or a bank robbery taking place and scolding me because I'm not paying more attention to a kid stealing a pack of chewing gum around the corner.

Of the two of us I would say you are the brainwashed one.


Not true, and I'll tell you why:

You (like many Bush supporters) start out with the foregone conclusion that Bush is in the right about a given issue, and then you deal with the facts.

[clarker]

You (like many Bush supporters) start out with the foregone conclusion that Bush is in the right about a given issue, and then you deal with the facts.--LA

Really like the Rove thing where I said if he broke the law he should go to jail and if Bush gave him the order he can be his room mate.

You replied that you wish more republicans think like I do.

I have been far more critical of Republicans on this board than you will ever be of Dems.

I am a Republican and tend to vote for them, but I don't put them on some kind of holy shrine like you do the Dems.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Really like the Rove thing where I said if he broke the law he should go to jail and if Bush gave him the order he can be his room mate.

You replied that you wish more republicans think like I do.


Yes - I should have qualified my statement by acknowledging that, while I've seen you jump on the foregone conclusion bandwagon, you don't do it all the time and you don't do it nearly as often as a lot of other Bush backers here.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I am a Republican and tend to vote for them, but I don't put them on some kind of holy shrine like you do the Dems.

I just said on another thread that if I decide to plug my nose and vote for Dems in the future then it will only be because I see them as the lesser of two evils.

Doesn't sound like a "holy shrine" to me.

[clarker]

Yes - I should have qualified my statement by acknowledging that, while I've seen you jump on the foregone conclusion bandwagon, you don't do it all the time and you don't do it nearly as often as a lot of other Bush backers here.How do you know I am a bandwagon jumper? Perhaps that is what I believe and that is why I support the Republican party.

Do you consider yourself a bandwagoner or sheep when you post after post of liberal points of view? Why is I'm brain washed and your not?

I have never seen you post anything negative about a Dem and never anything positive about a republican. I get you hate Bush, fine. But I have never seen you post a single thing where you agree with a Republican on anything.

I have seen Spider, Montaq, Atlas and others agree with or at least concede a point or two to the other side. But with you if I posts something that you agree with or bashes Bush you say how open minded I am, but if I disagree with you I'm a brainwashed sheep. I think that is pretty f.cking arrogant.

[clarker]

I just said on another thread that if I decide to plug my nose and vote for Dems in the future then it will only be because I see them as the lesser of two evils.

Doesn't sound like a "holy shrine" to me.Holy Sh.t LA said something critical of the Dems and the earth didn't even stop moving. ;D

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

How do you know I am a bandwagon jumper? Perhaps that is what I believe and that is why I support the Republican party.

Because I've seen you believe various claims about BushCo before you had the facts or in spite of the facts (even though you're usually willing to admit to this when presented with the facts.)

Do you consider yourself a bandwagoner or sheep when you post after post of liberal points of view? Why is I'm brain washed and your not?

I wasn't the one who called you "brainwashed." You stated you were "less brainwashed" than I.

I get you hate Bush, fine. But I have never seen you post a single thing where you agree with a Republican on anything.

That you haven't seen something doesn't mean it hasn't happened.

Right after 9/11, I supported Bush's war in Afghanistan. On the old Broncos forum (the DPO) where I used to hang out, I went an entire year without making any political comments whatsoever (even while ditto monkeys on that board were continuing to take shots at Clinton.)

And I have always given props to those moderate repubs who have stood up to the neocon nut cases who have hijacked your party.

but if I disagree with you I'm a brainwashed sheep. I think that is pretty f.cking arrogant.

WTF are you talking about? You called me "brainwashed" - not the other way around.

[errand]

I hope to hell this is overblown .....

Lie to your mother...but please don't lie to us. Your overjoyed this might be true...because it gives you hope that you clowns will one day be back in power.

[Blueflame]

That makes two of us.

http://www.bartcop.com/tutu-Lieberman-sm.jpg

Just one citizen's opinion, but if I want to rubberstamp the Republican agenda, it would make more sense to just vote for the guy with the "R" behind his name rather than the "Republican-lite" masquerading as a Dem. I can't think of a single item on Bush's wishlist that Lieberman hasn't acquiesced to. What's the point of voting for an "opposition candidate" that's too chicken or too "civil" to ever take issue with any part of an extreme rightwing agenda that defines itself as "compassionate conservatism"... but in actuality is neither compassionate nor conservative?

[errand]

I just said on another thread that if I decide to plug my nose and vote for Dems in the future then it will only be because I see them as the lesser of two evils.

Doesn't sound like a "holy shrine" to me.

...care to link your homepage?

Your nothing but a shill for the Democrat party....and if you claim your not, well, then you're a liar as well.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Your nothing but a shill for the Democrat party....and if you claim your not, well, then you're a liar as well.

This from a certified shill and a trick for the WMD Lies/Abu Grhaib/TreasonGate administration?

rofl

That's too funny.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Just one citizen's opinion, but if I want to rubberstamp the Republican agenda, it would make more sense to just vote for the guy with the "R" behind his name rather than the "Republican-lite" masquerading as a Dem. I can't think of a single item on Bush's wishlist that Lieberman hasn't acquiesced to. What's the point of voting for an "opposition candidate" that's too chicken or too "civil" to ever take issue with any part of an extreme rightwing agenda that defines itself as "compassionate conservatism"... but in actuality is neither compassionate nor conservative?

Bingo.

This is also why the rightards dislike Howard Dean - they have become accustomed to DINOs like Joe.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Lie to your mother...but please don't lie to us. Your overjoyed this might be true...because it gives you hope that you clowns will one day be back in power.

You're damn right it does.

We hope that we will be able to unseat sociopaths like you who justify and defend vile things like raping little boys and girls and videotaping it.

BTW, there is no "if" here - the videos and photos don't lie.

[Blueflame]

Bingo.

This is also why the rightards dislike Howard Dean - they have become accustomed to DINOs like Joe.

At least Howard Dean seems to have some backbone.... while Rush et al are scrambling to paint him as insane or at least mildly unhinged, I'd be exponentially more likely to vote for him than for a Bush enabler like Lieberman.

[errand]

This makes me ill and I hope none of my fellow Republicans try to defend this. I always thought the other pictures not released to the public were more of the same(naked pyrimids(sp?) and the such.) but this makes me want to puke.

As with the Rove thing I think they need to go after these guys from the bottom up. I can't believe that these young kids acted on their own. There has to be some upper level commanders who gave the order for this.

You need to think about who your weeping for...and with.

Your disgusted that terrorists captured on the battlefield were treated badly? Number one, until the pictures are released, I wouldn't pass judgement.....remember the left think that turning up the heat or AC in a room is torture. And two, even if they were treated badly, so what?

These guys would cut your head off as soon as look at you....the more of them that we kill, the better off we are in my book.

In fact several of those released from Getmo have been captured again or killed on the battlefield. These clowns are not innocent civillians that the left would have you believe.

One day you guys will realize that the way to win this fight is to destroy their will to fight.....and if "torture" like turning up the heat or AC is gonna help us win it...then so be it.

As for your belief that those named in the abuse scandal were acting under orders of their superior officers.....

We once had a thief amongst my unit's midst....stole some boot's combat arms bonus ($2,500) NCIS was looking into the matter and question the guy's bunk mate. Well, they came up empty.

We however took the matter into our own hands, and began with the bunk mate...after slapping him around a bit, we got the name of another guy who might be involved....

We then grabbed him when he came back from chow, and held him down, wrapped a towel around his face and poured water on the towel (this gave him the sensation of drowning)...soon we had him singing like a bird....in fact all we'd have to do is reach for the water can and he'd start talking some more.

The reader's digest version is that punk#1 got the guy's lock combination...and gave it to punk#3....who broke into the locker and stole the money.

Punk #2 drove punk #3 into town for a $400 cut of the money. #1 didn't get any of the money, so we never did understand why he'd risk being caught.

Bottom line is, we took matters into our own hands...and caught 3 thiefs. Our commanding officer and company 1st sgt knew nothing of this....and we did this in broad daylight during working hours.

So to say that there had to be higher ups who knew this was going on isn't an accurate statement. There's tons of stuff that goes on that the CO and XO have no freaking clue as to what is going on.

...and don't get too choked up on those pictures. This is the same crap the left pulled during Vietnam...accusing our troops of atrocities....all the while dismissing those committed by our enemies.

[errand]

LOL , I see so she made her own coffee ...... When will you understand that your are responcible for the products you put out ?

McDonald's makes coffee....it melts cup....and hot coffee spills into lap, McDonald's is liable.

McDonald's makes coffee, and while trying to drive and drink coffee, you spill it into your lap....McDonald's is not liable.

[errand]

You're damn right it does.

We hope that we will be able to unseat sociopaths like you who justify and defend vile things like raping little boys and girls and videotaping it.

BTW, there is no "if" here - the videos and photos don't lie.

Have you seen the videos and photos? If not then all you have again (as always) are allegations and accusations....nothing more.

[Spider]

Lie to your mother...but please don't lie to us. Your overjoyed this might be true...because it gives you hope that you clowns will one day be back in power.
Dont need to thrash the reputations of good solid American soldiers to do that .. Hatin on Bush is fun , but hatin on our troops , that stand between us , and those that want to invade us is a whole different matter and none to humorous .....While I dont doubt a republican would use this as a chance to futher his agenda ( see Valerie Plame case ) .... I wouldnt , and if you remember errent , I was one of the few that defended the troops when this first broke .......

[Spider]

McDonald's makes coffee....it melts cup....and hot coffee spills into lap, McDonald's is liable.

McDonald's makes coffee, and while trying to drive and drink coffee, you spill it into your lap....McDonald's is not liable.
how about the lid errent ? where does that facotor into your rattle snake handling religion fit in ?

[Spider]

You need to think about who your weeping for...and with.

Your disgusted that terrorists captured on the battlefield were treated badly? Number one, until the pictures are released, I wouldn't pass judgement.....remember the left think that turning up the heat or AC in a room is torture. And two, even if they were treated badly, so what?

These guys would cut your head off as soon as look at you....the more of them that we kill, the better off we are in my book.

In fact several of those released from Getmo have been captured again or killed on the battlefield. These clowns are not innocent civillians that the left would have you believe.

One day you guys will realize that the way to win this fight is to destroy their will to fight.....and if "torture" like turning up the heat or AC is gonna help us win it...then so be it.

As for your belief that those named in the abuse scandal were acting under orders of their superior officers.....

We once had a thief amongst my unit's midst....stole some boot's combat arms bonus ($2,500) NCIS was looking into the matter and question the guy's bunk mate. Well, they came up empty.

We however took the matter into our own hands, and began with the bunk mate...after slapping him around a bit, we got the name of another guy who might be involved....

We then grabbed him when he came back from chow, and held him down, wrapped a towel around his face and poured water on the towel (this gave him the sensation of drowning)...soon we had him singing like a bird....in fact all we'd have to do is reach for the water can and he'd start talking some more.

The reader's digest version is that punk#1 got the guy's lock combination...and gave it to punk#3....who broke into the locker and stole the money.

Punk #2 drove punk #3 into town for a $400 cut of the money. #1 didn't get any of the money, so we never did understand why he'd risk being caught.

Bottom line is, we took matters into our own hands...and caught 3 thiefs. Our commanding officer and company 1st sgt knew nothing of this....and we did this in broad daylight during working hours.

So to say that there had to be higher ups who knew this was going on isn't an accurate statement. There's tons of stuff that goes on that the CO and XO have no freaking clue as to what is going on.

...and don't get too choked up on those pictures. This is the same crap the left pulled during Vietnam...accusing our troops of atrocities....all the while dismissing those committed by our enemies.

LOL right on cue ........ Hey errent , is your story like the one you told us about the guy that said he saw Jane Fonda hand notes to the Leaders of N. Nam ? That one cracked me up ..........

[Rascal]

Not related but this is a scary story...yet another reason not to use drugs.

WASHINGTON — Usama bin Laden tried to buy a massive amount of cocaine, spike it with poison and sell it in the United States, hoping to kill thousands of Americans one year after the Sept. 11 attacks, The Post has learned.

The evil plot failed when the Colombian drug lords bin Laden approached decided it would be bad for their business — and, possibly, for their own health, according to law-enforcement sources familiar with the Drug Enforcement Administration's (search) probe of the aborted transaction.

The feds were told of the scheme earlier this year, but its existence had never been made public. The Post has reviewed a document detailing the DEA's findings in the matter, in addition to interviewing sources familiar with the case.

Sources said the feds were told that bin Laden personally met with leaders of a Colombian drug cartel to in 2002 to negotiate the purchase of tons of cocaine, saying that he was willing to spend tens of millions of dollars to finance the deal.

It was not clear where the meeting took place.

Bin Laden hoped that large numbers of Americans dying from poisoned coke would lead to widespread terror.

"They wanted to kill thousands of people — more than the World Trade Center," said a source.

Although the drug lords would have reaped millions of dollars in profits by selling the cocaine to bin Laden, they knew that if his plan succeeded it might effectively destroy the market for their coke in America for years, sources said.

But that was only one reason they declined bin Laden's offer.

The other was their fear of retaliation from the U.S. government once its citizens started to die from the drugs, according to sources.

Despite bin Laden's plan being thwarted, the DEA believes that al Qaeda continues to this day to traffic in drugs to fund a variety of its operations — including training, traveling and terror attacks.

In 2002, then-DEA Director Asa Hutchinson (search) said, "The DEA [has] received multi-source information that Usama bin Laden himself has been involved in the financing and facilitation of heroin-trafficking activities."

"It is important we recognize that when money goes from the pocket of an American to buy drugs, it may contribute to the financing of unspeakable crimes of violence around the world," Hutchinson told Congress that year when he detailed the narcotics trade connection to al Qaeda and other terror groups.

In April of this year, Afghan tribal leader Hajji Bashir Noorzai (search), who was one of the most wanted drug dealers in the world and previously had been identified as bin Laden's major heroin supplier, was busted in New York City on federal criminal charges.

[Spider]

Not related but this is a scary story...yet another reason not to use drugs.

WASHINGTON — Usama bin Laden tried to buy a massive amount of cocaine, spike it with poison and sell it in the United States, hoping to kill thousands of Americans one year after the Sept. 11 attacks, The Post has learned.

The evil plot failed when the Colombian drug lords bin Laden approached decided it would be bad for their business — and, possibly, for their own health, according to law-enforcement sources familiar with the Drug Enforcement Administration's (search) probe of the aborted transaction.

The feds were told of the scheme earlier this year, but its existence had never been made public. The Post has reviewed a document detailing the DEA's findings in the matter, in addition to interviewing sources familiar with the case.

Sources said the feds were told that bin Laden personally met with leaders of a Colombian drug cartel to in 2002 to negotiate the purchase of tons of cocaine, saying that he was willing to spend tens of millions of dollars to finance the deal.

It was not clear where the meeting took place.

Bin Laden hoped that large numbers of Americans dying from poisoned coke would lead to widespread terror.

"They wanted to kill thousands of people — more than the World Trade Center," said a source.

Although the drug lords would have reaped millions of dollars in profits by selling the cocaine to bin Laden, they knew that if his plan succeeded it might effectively destroy the market for their coke in America for years, sources said.

But that was only one reason they declined bin Laden's offer.

The other was their fear of retaliation from the U.S. government once its citizens started to die from the drugs, according to sources.

Despite bin Laden's plan being thwarted, the DEA believes that al Qaeda continues to this day to traffic in drugs to fund a variety of its operations — including training, traveling and terror attacks.

In 2002, then-DEA Director Asa Hutchinson (search) said, "The DEA [has] received multi-source information that Usama bin Laden himself has been involved in the financing and facilitation of heroin-trafficking activities."

"It is important we recognize that when money goes from the pocket of an American to buy drugs, it may contribute to the financing of unspeakable crimes of violence around the world," Hutchinson told Congress that year when he detailed the narcotics trade connection to al Qaeda and other terror groups.

In April of this year, Afghan tribal leader Hajji Bashir Noorzai (search), who was one of the most wanted drug dealers in the world and previously had been identified as bin Laden's major heroin supplier, was busted in New York City on federal criminal charges.

Interesting ..... you got a link ? I would love to learn more about this , if this is true , OBL , could be looking for away to attack from South America

[RaiderH8r]

McDonald's makes coffee....it melts cup....and hot coffee spills into lap, McDonald's is liable.

McDonald's makes coffee, and while trying to drive and drink coffee, you spill it into your lap....McDonald's is not liable.
Old people shouldn't be driving anyway.

I don't care for tort reform. Like Montaq said, if a jury can decide whether you die then a jury can decide the punitive damages in a case like this. However, I think the plaintiffs should be held accountable for the legal fees of the defendant should the case be tossed out of court.

[Rascal]

Interesting ..... you got a link ? I would love to learn more about this , if this is true , OBL , could be looking for away to attack from South America

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,163633,00.html

[Rascal]

Old people shouldn't be driving anyway.

I don't care for tort reform. Like Montaq said, if a jury can decide whether you die then a jury can decide the punitive damages in a case like this. However, I think the plaintiffs should be held accountable for the legal fees of the defendant should the case be tossed out of court.

The tort reform I'm talking about is regarding frivolous law suits and some protection for doctors so medical costs will stop skyrocketing up.

[RaiderH8r]

The tort reform I'm talking about is regarding frivolous law suits and some protection for doctors so medical costs will stop skyrocketing up.
Again, make the litigant pay for the Dr.'s legal fees and any associated increase in malpractice insurance. WOO HOO.

[Montaq]

However, I think the plaintiffs should be held accountable for the legal fees of the defendant should the case be tossed out of court.

That's a good idea.

[clarker]

You need to think about who your weeping for...and with.

Your disgusted that terrorists captured on the battlefield were treated badly? Number one, until the pictures are released, I wouldn't pass judgement.....remember the left think that turning up the heat or AC in a room is torture. And two, even if they were treated badly, so what?

These guys would cut your head off as soon as look at you....the more of them that we kill, the better off we are in my book.

In fact several of those released from Getmo have been captured again or killed on the battlefield. These clowns are not innocent civillians that the left would have you believe.

One day you guys will realize that the way to win this fight is to destroy their will to fight.....and if "torture" like turning up the heat or AC is gonna help us win it...then so be it.

As for your belief that those named in the abuse scandal were acting under orders of their superior officers.....

We once had a thief amongst my unit's midst....stole some boot's combat arms bonus ($2,500) NCIS was looking into the matter and question the guy's bunk mate. Well, they came up empty.

We however took the matter into our own hands, and began with the bunk mate...after slapping him around a bit, we got the name of another guy who might be involved....

We then grabbed him when he came back from chow, and held him down, wrapped a towel around his face and poured water on the towel (this gave him the sensation of drowning)...soon we had him singing like a bird....in fact all we'd have to do is reach for the water can and he'd start talking some more.

The reader's digest version is that punk#1 got the guy's lock combination...and gave it to punk#3....who broke into the locker and stole the money.

Punk #2 drove punk #3 into town for a $400 cut of the money. #1 didn't get any of the money, so we never did understand why he'd risk being caught.

Bottom line is, we took matters into our own hands...and caught 3 thiefs. Our commanding officer and company 1st sgt knew nothing of this....and we did this in broad daylight during working hours.

So to say that there had to be higher ups who knew this was going on isn't an accurate statement. There's tons of stuff that goes on that the CO and XO have no freaking clue as to what is going on.

...and don't get too choked up on those pictures. This is the same crap the left pulled during Vietnam...accusing our troops of atrocities....all the while dismissing those committed by our enemies.Should we not be better than those evil bastards?

I'm not saying we make it resort down there and I could care less if they sit there a million years without a trial, but I don't think the military should be rapping or murdering anyone.

It is not just the left. Republican senator's who have seen the photos say they are of murder and rape. Hell even Rummy said they are revolting. If it had only been John Kerry's of the world, I would say you might have a point about it being just politics as usual. But the reports are comming from Republicans who have seen the photos as well.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Have you seen the videos and photos? If not then all you have again (as always) are allegations and accusations....nothing more.

As always, you're WAY behind the curve:

NEW YORK So what is shown on the 87 photographs and four videos from Abu Ghraib prison that the Pentagon, in an eleventh hour move, blocked from release this weekend? One clue: Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld told Congress last year, after viewing a large cache of unreleased images: "I mean, I looked at them last night, and they're hard to believe.” They show acts "that can only be described as blatantly sadistic, cruel and inhumane," he added.

A Republican Senator suggested the same day they contained scenes of “rape and murder.” No wonder Rumsfeld commented then, "If these are released to the public, obviously it's going to make matters worse."

To get a sense of what may be shown in these images, one has to go back to press reports from when the Abu Ghraib abuse scandal was still front page news.

“The embattled defense secretary fielded sharp and skeptical questions from lawmakers as he testified about the growing prisoner abuse scandal. A military report about that abuse describes detainees being threatened, sodomized with a chemical light and forced into sexually humiliating poses.

The military later screened some of the images for lawmakers, who said they showed, among other things, attack dogs snarling at cowed prisoners, Iraqi women forced to expose their breasts, and naked prisoners forced to have sex with each other.

In the same period, reporter Seymour Hersh, who helped uncover the scandal, said in a speech before an ACLU convention: “Some of the worse that happened that you don't know about, ok? Videos, there are women there. Some of you may have read they were passing letters, communications out to their men….The women were passing messages saying ‘Please come and kill me, because of what's happened.’

“Basically what happened is that those women who were arrested with young boys/children in cases that have been recorded. The boys were sodomized with the cameras rolling. The worst about all of them is the soundtrack of the boys shrieking that your government has. They are in total terror it's going to come out.”

http://editorandpublisher.com/eandp...t_id=1000990590

[Spider]

As always, you're WAY behind the curve:



http://editorandpublisher.com/eandp...t_id=1000990590
This is Errand . did you expect anything else ?

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

This is Errand . did you expect anything else ?

:laugh:

Yeah - maybe I was being a little too optimistic about human nature, the possibility of evolution, etc.

:D

[Spider]

:laugh:

Yeah - maybe I was being a little too optimistic about human nature, the possibility of evolution, etc.

:D
Bush could run down a troop of Boy scouts , drunk and Errand will still carry water for him ....... Saying somthing along the lines that the Boy scouts leader was gay and training the Kids to be terrorist .......

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Bush could run down a troop of Boy scouts , drunk and Errand will still carry water for him ....... Saying somthing along the lines that the Boy scouts leader was gay and training the Kids to be terrorist .......

LOL

Don't forget the part where anyone who criticizes Dumbya for this incident "hates America and wants the terrorists to win."

:D

[Spider]

LOL

Don't forget the part where anyone who criticizes Dumbya for this incident "hates America and wants the terrorists to win."

:D
LOL ... errand's moment of zen

[clarker]

Bush could run down a troop of Boy scouts , drunk and Errand will still carry water for him ....... Saying somthing along the lines that the Boy scouts leader was gay and training the Kids to be terrorist .......The same could be said for LABronco on the Dems side. To him any one is disagrees with him or the Dems or says anything positive about Repbulicans or God forbid Bush, they are just brain washed sheep.

[Spider]

The same could be said for LABronco on the Dems side. To him any one is disagrees with him or the Dems or says anything positive about Repbulicans or God forbid Bush, they are just brain washed sheep.
Well when LABF steps up and makes excuses for Kids getting sodomized in the name of fighting terrorism , under a Democrat , by all means feel free to point it out .......

[clarker]

Well when LABF steps up and makes excuses for Kids getting sodomized in the name of fighting terrorism , under a Democrat , by all means feel free to point it out .......Name one thing where LA has said the Dems were on wrong side of any issue. Name one time he has said the Republicans were on the right side of an issue.

[Spider]

Name one thing where LA has said the Dems were on wrong side of any issue. Name one time he has said the Republicans were on the right side of an issue.
An Issue ? this artical is and what happened is beyond issues ...... Issues is fighting over Social security , Taxes , Sodomy isnt an Issue , it is a crime ...
what is it with some on the right and Sodomy ?
You need to think about who your weeping for...and with.

Your disgusted that terrorists captured on the battlefield were treated badly?
think about Errands opening line

[clarker]

An Issue ? this artical is and what happened is beyond issues ...... Issues is fighting over Social security , Taxes , Sodomy isnt an Issue , it is a crime ...
what is it with some on the right and Sodomy ?

think about Errands opening lineI'm not defending Errand on this in fact I posted a response telling him he was flat wrong about Dems making this a political issue.

But the fact remains LA is just as much a blind loyalist to the Dems as Errand is the Republilcans.

Remember the SCOTUS case on taking someone's property and selling it to another private person. You admited right away that the Dems got it way wrong. LA swore up and down that they were not the most liberal judges on the court, even whe I pointed out that Rachel Maddow, of Air-America said they were the most liberal judges ont he court.

[Montaq]

Name one thing where LA has said the Dems were on wrong side of any issue. Name one time he has said the Republicans were on the right side of an issue.

Is this the two wrongs make a right arguement?

For the record, LABF has mentioned many times that he's not a Democrat, he's a liberal. To me, his agenda doesn't seem to be about propping up Democrats but more about bashing Bush and his flunkies.

[Montaq]

I'm not defending Errand on this in fact I posted a response telling him he was flat wrong about Dems making this a political issue.

But the fact remains LA is just as much a blind loyalist to the Dems as Errand is the Republilcans.

Remember the SCOTUS case on taking someone's property and selling it to another private person. You admited right away that the Dems got it way wrong. LA swore up and down that they were not the most liberal judges on the court, even whe I pointed out that Rachel Maddow, of Air-America said they were the most liberal judges ont he court.

That was me.

And after long thought, you helped me to see that I was wrong. I didn't admit that but it's true.

[Spider]

I'm not defending Errand on this in fact I posted a response telling him he was flat wrong about Dems making this a political issue.

But the fact remains LA is just as much a blind loyalist to the Dems as Errand is the Republilcans.

Remember the SCOTUS case on taking someone's property and selling it to another private person. You admited right away that the Dems got it way wrong. LA swore up and down that they were not the most liberal judges on the court, even whe I pointed out that Rachel Maddow, of Air-America said they were the most liberal judges ont he court.
I saw you did , and you was right in your rebuking of Errand , but I think there is a difference here , of course I think what the SCOTUS ruled is borderline criminal , and I would be wide open to impeaching Judges , but my point is , carrying water for a party , a canidate is one thing , carrying water for people that commit crimes , such as Sodomy on young boys , goes way past partisan Politics ....

[clarker]

That was me.

And after long thought, you helped me to see that I was wrong. I didn't admit that but it's true.Are you sure? Even if that is true, you can't really say with a straight face that LA is nothing but a blind loyal Dem who believes that they are always right on every issue.

[clarker]

I saw you did , and you was right in your rebuking of Errand , but I think there is a difference here , of course I think what the SCOTUS ruled is borderline criminal , and I would be wide open to impeaching Judges , but my point is , carrying water for a party , a canidate is one thing , carrying water for people that commit crimes , such as Sodomy on young boys , goes way past partisan Politics ....I can respect that.

[Montaq]

Are you sure?

I'm pretty sure I was the only one making an arguement for the ruling.

[Montaq]

Are you sure? Even if that is true, you can't really say with a straight face that LA is nothing but a blind loyal Dem who believes that they are always right on every issue.

I know he's a dedicated liberal who hates Bush - I have no idea who he likes in the Democratic party.

[clarker]

I know he's a dedicated liberal who hates Bush - I have no idea who he likes in the Democratic party.The answere is everyone but Lieberman. To me he might be a decent guy but he is just as blind loyalist as W*GS or Errand.

You guys defend him because he agrees with your point of view. I guess you could say the same thing with Errand. But I am not trying to defend his view of the Abu Grhaib story as much as just saying he is no different than LA. Except he is right on this story, IMO and Errand is wrong.

[Spider]

The answere is everyone but Lieberman. To me he might be a decent guy but he is just as blind loyalist as W*GS or Errand.

You guys defend him because he agrees with your point of view. I guess you could say the same thing with Errand. But I am not trying to defend his view of the Abu Grhaib story as much as just saying he is no different than LA. Except he is right on this story, IMO and Errand is wrong.
No me and LABF have disagreed ........ But like you Clarker , if someone on the Dems side came and started sayin things about you , that I knew you didnt say , I would jump in for you ....... Take So Cal Bronco , right wing as they come , Like Meck 77 m Hotrod , a few others , but I consider them all my friends , you seen me and Rascal and Shack argue , name call , but I have their backs also ...... These guys will tell you that .....

[clarker]

No me and LABF have disagreed ........ But like you Clarker , if someone on the Dems side came and started sayin things about you , that I knew you didnt say , I would jump in for you ....... Take So Cal Bronco , right wing as they come , Like Meck 77 m Hotrod , a few others , but I consider them all my friends , you seen me and Rascal and Shack argue , name call , but I have their backs also ...... These guys will tell you that .....I'm not saying LA is a bad guy. I don't like it when I agree with him he calls me a one the most open minded Republicans... Then when I disagree with him, he turns around and calls me a blind sheep or whatever. I told him that last night.

I consider you and Montaq(sp?) resonable people,who will admit when there wrong or at least try to understand another person's point a veiw.

[Spider]

I'm not saying LA is a bad guy. I don't like it when I agree with him he calls me a one the most open minded Republicans... Then when I disagree with him, he turns around and calls me a blind sheep or whatever. I told him that last night.

I consider you and Montaq(sp?) resonable people,who will admit when there wrong or at least try to understand another person's point a veiw.
in 6 weeks we all will be cheering the same team , the politics die out .....soon we all will be fighting Chief , Raider , and other fans ;D .... then when seaon is over , we come right back down here and go at it all over again ;D ...... Dysfunctional but hey great family none the less .......

[clarker]

in 6 weeks we all will be cheering the same team , the politics die out .....soon we all will be fighting Chief , Raider , and other fans ;D .... then when seaon is over , we come right back down here and go at it all over again ;D ...... Dysfunctional but hey great family none the less .......Well, yes of course.

[Montaq]

The answere is everyone but Lieberman. To me he might be a decent guy but he is just as blind loyalist as W*GS or Errand.

You guys defend him because he agrees with your point of view. I guess you could say the same thing with Errand. But I am not trying to defend his view of the Abu Grhaib story as much as just saying he is no different than LA. Except he is right on this story, IMO and Errand is wrong.

I think LABF will run a subject into the ground by posting article after article or cartoon after cartoon but his point of view, I usually agree with. ???

There are some areas that I'm not that liberal on (i.e. gun control, capital punishment) but I don't really know LABF's stance on those issues.

[Spider]

Well, yes of course.
This year will be great ..... I am getting amed for the season ........

[clarker]

This year will be great ..... I am getting amed for the season ........
I wasn't until I watched In Their Own Words: Mike Shanahan on NFL Network earlier tonight.

[clarker]

I think LABF will run a subject into the ground by posting article after article or cartoon after cartoon but his point of view, I usually agree with. ???

There are some areas that I'm not that liberal on (i.e. gun control, capital punishment) but I don't really know LABF's stance on those issues.I'm still very much anti-gun control, but am going more to the left on capital punishmet. Not totally but I'm far closer to the left than I was 5-6 years ago.

I also lean to the left on Gay Marriage. I'm for programs that help people get on their feet, but not make them totally dependent on the Government.

I do think Iraq was a good thing to do even if there was no WMD's because 1. Even if Saddam didn't have them, when the heat went down on him he would try to get them again. 2.Saddam and his son's were mass murdering f.cks. 3. At the end of the day if we stick it out and Iraq is able to defend itself and they are able to choose their own leaders(even if we don't like who the elect) it will be worth it end the end.

I could care less if we ever let those evil bastards out of Gitmo, but I don't think we should stoop to their level and murder and rape them.


But in the grand scheme of things, other than a strong

[Spider]

I wasn't until I watched In Their Own Words: Mike Shanahan on NFL Network earlier tonight.
;D I am a die hard homer when it comes to the Broncs ...... I start out every year excited ....... This year I ditched that damn Shark tooth Broncos hat ,, Bad luck it was .......

[clarker]

Interesting ..... you got a link ? I would love to learn more about this , if this is true , OBL , could be looking for away to attack from South AmericaThey talked about this on Tucker Carlson tonight. They said the drug dealers chose not sell to OBL. Said end the end it would be bad for buisness.

[Montaq]

I'm still very much anti-gun control, but am going more to the left on capital punishmet. Not totally but I'm far closer to the left than I was 5-6 years ago.

I also lean to the left on Gay Marriage. I'm for programs that help people get on their feet, but not make them totally dependent on the Government.

I do think Iraq was a good thing to do even if there was no WMD's because 1. Even if Saddam didn't have them, when the heat went down on him he would try to get them again. 2.Saddam and his son's were mass murdering f.cks. 3. At the end of the day if we stick it out and Iraq is able to defend itself and they are able to choose their own leaders(even if we don't like who the elect) it will be worth it end the end.

I could care less if we ever let those evil bastards out of Gitmo, but I don't think we should stoop to their level and murder and rape them.


But in the grand scheme of things, other than a strong


I've become more to the right on capital punishment in the past few years. I have no problems putting a murderer to death. Any concerns I've had would be if an innocent man was put to death and I'm sure that it's happened. But as DNA testing continues to progress, I think the chances of an innocent person be put to death for something they didn't do is becoming less and less likely.

I haven't owned a gun in 15 years and I probably won't own one again. I have no need for one. But I don't believe that gun control laws are going to keep guns out of the hands of criminals - so why make it hard for law abiding citizens to obtain them.

But most other issues - I'm a tree hugging liberal. ;D

[clarker]

I've become more to the right on capital punishment in the past few years. I have no problems putting a murderer to death. Any concerns I've had would be if an innocent man was put to death and I'm sure that it's happened. But as DNA testing continues to progress, I think the chances of an innocent person be put to death for something they didn't do is becoming less and less likely.

I haven't owned a gun in 15 years and I probably won't own one again. I have no need for one. But I don't believe that gun control laws are going to keep guns out of the hands of criminals - so why make it hard for law abiding citizens to obtain them.

But most other issues - I'm a tree hugging liberal. ;DI feel the same way about gun control for the same reasons you point out.

I also think we need find some different kinds of fuels. But I think that is harder than sounds, even if Bush wasn't President. Hell even if Gore was President it wouldn't happen over night. First they would have to find said fuel and then make it practical and affordable for everyone to change over would be a slow process to say the least.

[Spider]

They talked about this on Tucker Carlson tonight. They said the drug dealers chose not sell to OBL. Said end the end it would be bad for buisness.
They also said they couldnt confirm the story .. I got a feeling it is another one Foxs news specials

[clarker]

They also said they couldnt confirm the story .. I got a feeling it is another one Foxs news specialsCould be. I never watch FOX or CNN or CBS. I either watch ABC or NBC and MSNBC.

I think all media is baised one way or the other these days, but I think those are more balanced than the others.

[Spider]

Could be. I never watch FOX or CNN or CBS. I either watch ABC or NBC and MSNBC.

I think all media is baised one way or the other these days, but I think those are more balanced than the others.
I am basicaly a MSNBC on some programs ......

[clarker]

I am basicaly a MSNBC on some programs ......Me too. I like Hardball and Tucker. I didn't like Oberman on ESPN so I sure as hell don't like him on MSNBC. He thinks to high of himself. Can you see him laughing when a guest cracks on him, like Tucker does? No.

I watch Scarbourh(sp?) once and great while. I could take or leave him.

[Montaq]

Me too. I like Hardball and Tucker. I didn't like Oberman on ESPN so I sure as hell don't like him on MSNBC. He thinks to high of himself. Can you see him laughing when a guest cracks on him, like Tucker does? No.

I watch Scarbourh(sp?) once and great while. I could take or leave him.

But when Oberman was dogging on O'Reilly every night, it was greatness. ROFL!

[clarker]

But when Oberman was dogging on O'Reilly every night, it was greatness. ROFL!I could see howone jack ass dogging another jack ass would be funny. But I never watch either one so I guess I'll just have to miss out.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Well when LABF steps up and makes excuses for Kids getting sodomized in the name of fighting terrorism , under a Democrat , by all means feel free to point it out .......

:thumbsup:

Thanks for trying to explain the difference to him (not that it will likely do any good.)

Speaking of 'running issues into the ground,' even after I explained my feelings about the Democratic Party to clarker directly, he's still claiming in post after post that I'm a "blind loyalist" to the Democratic Party, etc., etc.

Just when you think there's hope for this guy, he reverts back to the same old neocon habit of ignoring facts and distorting the truth.

[clarker]

:thumbsup:

Thanks for trying to explain the difference to him (not that it will likely do any good.)

Speaking of 'running issues into the ground,' even after I explained my feelings about the Democratic Party to clarker directly, he's still claiming in post after post that I'm a "blind loyalist" to the Democratic Party, etc., etc.

Just when you think there's hope for this guy, he reverts back to the same old neocon habit of ignoring facts and distorting the truth.Yeah, you said you think the Democratic party is th lesser of two evils. But you never take them to task. You never post anything negative about them and you continue to say that I'm just a blind sheep neocon.

But here is what I'm saying. It is not that your a bad guy or that I think your wrong on every topic. There are more than a few topics I agree with you on.

But when someone disagrees with you, you bash them for just being a blind loyal Republican when clearly your very loyal to your own party. You say the Democratic party is the lesser of two evils but you never even say they do anything wrong or are wrong on any topic. That is just not possible. You talk about people on the right just putting out the party line, but what do you think your doing with your cartoons. Or all the articals you post from left wing sights. Putting out objective stories? No, your not.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Yeah, you said you think the Democratic party is th lesser of two evils. But you never take them to task. You never post anything negative about them and you continue to say that I'm just a blind sheep neocon.

To say that I've never posted anything negative about them is simply false, and you know it.

But, as I said before, who in his right mind is concerned about the almost powerless Dems at a time like this when the most criminal administration in U.S. history is wreaking havoc on America and the world?

Where are your priorities?

But when someone disagrees with you, you bash them for just being a blind loyal Republican when clearly your very loyal to your own party.

No - that's not how it works.

This is how it works:

1) I present facts that expose BushCo incompetence, impropriety, and/or criminality.

2) The bushbots "bash" me for presenting these facts - even when the facts are indisputable.

3) When I "bash" back, they cry like a bunch of pansies (like most bullies do when they get a dose of their own medicine.)


You say the Democratic party is the lesser of two evils but you never even say they do anything wrong or are wrong on any topic.

How many times do I have to repeat this for you?

The Repubs (not the Dems) currently control all three branches of government. They have all the marbles. You are like a guy who is scolding me for not focusing my attention on a kid stealing a pack of chewing gum down the street when there's a murder or a bank robbery going on right in front of your face.

You talk about people on the right just putting out the party line, but what do you think your doing with your cartoons. Or all the articals you post from left wing sights. Putting out objective stories? No, your not.

:bs:

The majority of the articles I post are from mainstream sources - mostly major newspapers.

What are you going to claim next? That TreasonGate is just a creation of the "liberal media?"

News flash:

The bad news about BushCo isn't just being reported by "left-wing sites" - it's showing up on page one of every newspaper in America.

[RaiderH8r]

An Issue ? this artical is and what happened is beyond issues ...... Issues is fighting over Social security , Taxes , Sodomy isnt an Issue , it is a crime ...
what is it with some on the right and Sodomy ?

think about Errands opening line
Well, those sodomy laws may not be long for the books if some groups have their way...and here's a hint, the groups aren't from the right.

[Spider]

Well, those sodomy laws may not be long for the books if some groups have their way...and here's a hint, the groups aren't from the right.
I was talking about the Sodomy on young boys ... Like in the artical on this thread

[ak1971]

I thought Republicans were only into this stuff.

Press release from NAMBLA
http://www.lomaprieta.nambla.org/

The Loma Prietan March 2004

North American Man/Boy Love Association Endorses Kerry Media contact: Allen Mattison, 202-675-7903 For Immediate Release March 01, 2004


NAMBLA: ELECT JOHN KERRY; CLEAN UP AMERICAN POLITICS


WASHINGTON - The North American Man/Boy Love Association (NAMBLA) today endorsed Senator John Kerry to be the next President of the United States.


The NAMBLA Board of Directors also voted today to clean up American politics by: including serious third party candidates, including Ralph Nader, in the Presidential debates; getting big money out of politics by closing loopholes in current campaign-finance laws; establishing effective spending limits; adopting public financing for Senate and congressional candidates; and supporting the free-television-time proposal developed by the Alliance for Better Campaigns.


HE ALSO TOOK MONEY FROM THEM IN SUPPORT OF THE PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN Also of note : http://www.gunblast.com/Kerry-Endorsements.htm

[Rascal]

It doesn't matter if they are young boys are not Spider. There is a large movement by some liberal groups to have sodomy allowed, even on young boys, for homosexual relationships.

[Spider]

I thought Republicans were only into this stuff.

Press release from NAMBLA
http://www.lomaprieta.nambla.org/

The Loma Prietan March 2004

North American Man/Boy Love Association Endorses Kerry Media contact: Allen Mattison, 202-675-7903 For Immediate Release March 01, 2004


NAMBLA: ELECT JOHN KERRY; CLEAN UP AMERICAN POLITICS


WASHINGTON - The North American Man/Boy Love Association (NAMBLA) today endorsed Senator John Kerry to be the next President of the United States.


The NAMBLA Board of Directors also voted today to clean up American politics by: including serious third party candidates, including Ralph Nader, in the Presidential debates; getting big money out of politics by closing loopholes in current campaign-finance laws; establishing effective spending limits; adopting public financing for Senate and congressional candidates; and supporting the free-television-time proposal developed by the Alliance for Better Campaigns.


HE ALSO TOOK MONEY FROM THEM IN SUPPORT OF THE PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN Also of note : http://www.gunblast.com/Kerry-Endorsements.htm

Just elected Republicans .........

[Rascal]

I thought Republicans were only into this stuff.

Press release from NAMBLA
http://www.lomaprieta.nambla.org/

The Loma Prietan March 2004

North American Man/Boy Love Association Endorses Kerry Media contact: Allen Mattison, 202-675-7903 For Immediate Release March 01, 2004


NAMBLA: ELECT JOHN KERRY; CLEAN UP AMERICAN POLITICS


WASHINGTON - The North American Man/Boy Love Association (NAMBLA) today endorsed Senator John Kerry to be the next President of the United States.


The NAMBLA Board of Directors also voted today to clean up American politics by: including serious third party candidates, including Ralph Nader, in the Presidential debates; getting big money out of politics by closing loopholes in current campaign-finance laws; establishing effective spending limits; adopting public financing for Senate and congressional candidates; and supporting the free-television-time proposal developed by the Alliance for Better Campaigns.


HE ALSO TOOK MONEY FROM THEM IN SUPPORT OF THE PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN Also of note : http://www.gunblast.com/Kerry-Endorsements.htm

Yeap. That was one of the biggest reasons why I didn't vote for him, and if any candidate accepts money from NAMBLA I will never vote for them.

Spider, you brought up the list of republicans who were disgusting. IMO this is just about as close. Your own party is supporting these morons to legalize man-BOY relationships. How can you justify that?

[Spider]

It doesn't matter if they are young boys are not Spider. There is a large movement by some liberal groups to have sodomy allowed, even on young boys, for homosexual relationships.
and this has what to do with Rape ? I dont think Sodomy will be legal on boys under the age of 16....

[Spider]

Yeap. That was one of the biggest reasons why I didn't vote for him, and if any candidate accepts money from NAMBLA I will never vote for them.

Spider, you brought up the list of republicans who were disgusting. IMO this is just about as close. Your own party is supporting these morons to legalize man-BOY relationships. How can you justify that?
Show me where Dems support NAMBLA ...... Show me 1 Elected Democrat ....

[Spider]

Just 1 .. I can show you 46 Elected Republicans .....

[Spider]

Look NAMBLA is pure Scum , and no question to it , that NAMBLA should be republicans , NAMBLA would have alot more support there .......

[ak1971]

John Kerry is an elected official still.

[Rascal]

and this has what to do with Rape ? I dont think Sodomy will be legal on boys under the age of 16....

A man having sex with a boy under 18 is and should be considered pediphilia.

[Rascal]

Show me where Dems support NAMBLA ...... Show me 1 Elected Democrat ....

John Kerry.

He took money from them, might as well be supporting them.

[Montaq]

I thought Republicans were only into this stuff.

Press release from NAMBLA
http://www.lomaprieta.nambla.org/

The Loma Prietan March 2004

North American Man/Boy Love Association Endorses Kerry Media contact: Allen Mattison, 202-675-7903 For Immediate Release March 01, 2004


NAMBLA: ELECT JOHN KERRY; CLEAN UP AMERICAN POLITICS


WASHINGTON - The North American Man/Boy Love Association (NAMBLA) today endorsed Senator John Kerry to be the next President of the United States.


The NAMBLA Board of Directors also voted today to clean up American politics by: including serious third party candidates, including Ralph Nader, in the Presidential debates; getting big money out of politics by closing loopholes in current campaign-finance laws; establishing effective spending limits; adopting public financing for Senate and congressional candidates; and supporting the free-television-time proposal developed by the Alliance for Better Campaigns.


HE ALSO TOOK MONEY FROM THEM IN SUPPORT OF THE PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN Also of note : http://www.gunblast.com/Kerry-Endorsements.htm

That's bogus.

[Rascal]

Just 1 .. I can show you 46 Elected Republicans .....

all were elected? And they supported NAMBLA?

They were scum, no doubt, but I don't see any proof of them taking money from NAMBLA.

The fact is, the only wing that is supporting legalizing man-BOY relationships is the left. There may be people doing it on the right as that list you shows indicates, but you won't see any group publicly supporting it.

[Rascal]

That's bogus.

great response.

[Montaq]

all were elected? And they supported NAMBLA?

They were scum, no doubt, but I don't see any proof of them taking money from NAMBLA.

The fact is, the only wing that is supporting legalizing man-BOY relationships is the left. There may be people doing it on the right as that list you shows indicates, but you won't see any group publicly supporting it.

Kerry didn't take money from NAMBLA.

[Spider]

John Kerry is an elected official still. He took money for his campaign
LOL ....... you sure about that ?
and if he did , to you this means he is NAMBLA ? Hilarious! ..... So I guess then Phelps is more mainstream Republican then others have told me

[Spider]

all were elected? And they supported NAMBLA?

They were scum, no doubt, but I don't see any proof of them taking money from NAMBLA.

The fact is, the only wing that is supporting legalizing man-BOY relationships is the left. There may be people doing it on the right as that list you shows indicates, but you won't see any group publicly supporting it.
Thats bad when NAMBLA wont have them huh ........ But since they were Pedophiles , and NAMBLA is Pedophiles 2+2= 4 .Just cause the Republicans dont call themselfs NAMBLA doesnt make them any less of a threat

[Montaq]

great response.

I went to the website that was posted and it has NO proof that Kerry took money from NAMBLA.

[Spider]

all were elected? And they supported NAMBLA?

They were scum, no doubt, but I don't see any proof of them taking money from NAMBLA.

The fact is, the only wing that is supporting legalizing man-BOY relationships is the left. There may be people doing it on the right as that list you shows indicates, but you won't see any group publicly supporting it.
all you have to do is show me 1 elected Democrat that says NAMBLA is a good thing .... Shouldnt be that hard

[Spider]

I went to the website that was posted and it has NO proof that Kerry took money from NAMBLA.
LOL . we are dealing with the right here , no proof is nessary , some pilled up right wing cowboy with Guns said it , Thats all the proof you need

[Montaq]

LOL . we are dealing with the right here , no proof is nessary , some pilled up right wing cowboy with Guns said it , Thats all the proof you need

So - I could say, "Rascal had sex with my dog" and it has to be true because it is now on the internet. ???

[Spider]

So - I could say, "Rascal had sex with my dog" and it has to be true because it is now on the internet. ???
Only ..... Only if you are right wing ...... you claim Bush is the Greatest thing to happen to America . then say it of course it would be true ;D

[Montaq]

Only ..... Only if you are right wing ...... you claim Bush is the Greatest thing to happen to America . then say it of course it would be true ;D

Maybe if I put up a website dedicated to it. Then would it be true because I could probably have something done by lunch. ;D

[Spider]

Maybe if I put up a website dedicated to it. Then would it be true because I could probably have something done by lunch. ;D
Hilarious! all you need to do is put somthing Pro Bush on there and People will believe it ....... I like ak1971 , but he got snookered by a Website that did just that ..........

[Montaq]

Hilarious! all you need to do is put somthing Pro Bush on there and People will believe it ....... I like ak1971 , but he got snookered by a Website that did just that ..........

but one has to wonder why he's doing google searches of NAMBLA. ???

[Spider]

but one has to wonder why he's doing google searches of NAMBLA. ???
I dont think AK 1971 did , I think the culprit is that Guns site he had ..... Ak1971 is a good guy , he just messed up on this one ..... better luck next time ;D

[ak1971]

but one has to wonder why he's doing google searches of NAMBLA. ???


I am a Republican dont you know? Excuse me I need to get in my Bentley and go oppress the poor.

[Spider]

I am a Republican dont you know? Excuse me I need to get in my Bentley and go oppress the poor.
got to fullfill the agenda ...... ;D .... Meanwhile while you are out oppresing the poor swing by NAPPA and get me a seal for a stearing box for a ford F150 ext 4x4 ......... Thanks in advance .....
Hetrosexualy yours ..Spider ;D

[Montaq]

I am a Republican dont you know? Excuse me I need to get in my Bentley and go oppress the poor.

You're old school Republican. The new school drives a '78 Camaro.

[Spider]

You're old school Republican. The new school drives a '78 Camaro.
ewwwwwww Chevy , knew there was a reason not to trust republicans ;D

[RaiderH8r]

Thats bad when NAMBLA wont have them huh ........ But since they were Pedophiles , and NAMBLA is Pedophiles 2+2= 4 .Just cause the Republicans dont call themselfs NAMBLA doesnt make them any less of a threat
Sigh.....I've said this before. You listed pedophiles who happen to be republican. I guarantee they did not run on a platform of pedophilia and I have also asked you to do a "where are they now?" list. Are they still serving? Are they still supported by the Repubican Party? If they have been summarily rejected by republicans how can you indict the entire party based on the actions of these people? I have been consistant in my position that they are criminals first and happen to be republicans. Diddling little boys is not on the platform.

[Arkie]

ewwwwwww Chevy , knew there was a reason not to trust republicans ;D

This thread covers everything from Abu Grhaib to McDonald's coffee to brainwashed sheep to man/boy love. Now It's a Ford vs. Chevy thread. ;)

http://www.moabjeeper.com/pict/hypergraphix/Melvin_Piss_ford_thumb.jpg

[Spider]

Sigh.....I've said this before. You listed pedophiles who happen to be republican. I guarantee they did not run on a platform of pedophilia and I have also asked you to do a "where are they now?" list. Are they still serving? Are they still supported by the Repubican Party? If they have been summarily rejected by republicans how can you indict the entire party based on the actions of these people? I have been consistant in my position that they are criminals first and happen to be republicans. Diddling little boys is not on the platform.
;D ......

[Spider]

This thread covers everything from Abu Grhaib to McDonald's coffee to brainwashed sheep to man/boy love. Now It's a Ford vs. Chevy thread. ;)

http://www.moabjeeper.com/pict/hypergraphix/Melvin_Piss_ford_thumb.jpg
So could have done without Calvin pissing on ford ;D

[patteeu]

I haven't read this thread, but nothing anyone said in here can excuse the fact that the Bush critics were treating Abu Ghraib like it was Auschwitz long before anything more significant than college-prank level abuses were revealed.

Rape and murder are wrong, but equating panties on the head and dogs barking to rape and murder is wrong too. There is no vindication for those who would rather undermine Bush than support the country's war effort in this revelation.

[Spider]

I haven't read this thread, but nothing anyone said in here can excuse the fact that the Bush critics were treating Abu Ghraib like it was Auschwitz long before anything more significant than college-prank level abuses were revealed. you are full of Shít . these allegations came out at the same time the first set of Pictures were revealed .......

Rape and murder are wrong, but equating panties on the head and dogs barking to rape and murder is wrong too. There is no vindication for those who would rather undermine Bush than support the country's war effort in this revelation.Once again you are full of Shít , The entire war is working against itself , the lack of a Real plan is what screwed up the Iraqi war .....

[clarker]

you are full of Shít . these allegations came out at the same time the first set of Pictures were revealed .......

Once again you are full of Shít , The entire war is working against itself , the lack of a Real plan is what screwed up the Iraqi war .....As someone who supported the war and still thinks we can do good things in Iraq, to say that the war plan was joke is an understatement.

I read Bob Woodard's book on the war plan and Rummy screwed up. He didn't follow the advise of the Generals and they didn't put much effort if any into a post war plan.

As for those pictures, Rummy himself has said the ones that were not made public are far worse than panties on the head or making them bark like a dog.

[Spider]

As someone who supported the war and still thinks we can do good things in Iraq, to say that the war plan was joke is an understatement.
the march into Baghadad was awesome , I think thats a first for an army of that size to move that fast ..... After the fall is the snafu , the Happy Iraqi plan didnt work .......

I read Bob Woodard's book on the war plan and Rummy screwed up. He didn't follow the advise of the Generals and they didn't put much effort if any into a post war plan.
agreed .......

As for those pictures, Rummy himself has said the ones that were not made public are far worse than panties on the head or making them bark like a dog.
Yeah Patty has a selective memory ....... ;D

[patteeu]

you are full of Shít . these allegations came out at the same time the first set of Pictures were revealed .......


You're right, they did and my statement was careless and incorrect. But that doesn't change the fact that you and the rest of the hardcore administration critics around here were perfectly willing to exagerate the abuses in order to make political hay without regard to whether it was deterimental to our war effort. How many rapes took place again? But I'm sure you have it all figured out how Rumsfeld personally ordered each and every abuse.

[Spider]

You're right, they did and my statement was careless and incorrect. But that doesn't change the fact that you and the rest of the hardcore administration critics around here were perfectly willing to exagerate the abuses in order to make political hay without regard to whether it was deterimental to our war effort. How many rapes took place again? But I'm sure you have it all figured out how Rumsfeld personally ordered each and every abuse.
Exagerate ? WTF ? Using Rummys own words at the time , the Pictures are far too disturbing to release ...... 1 rape of a young boy is one too many . and Rummy was in Charge was he not ? I suggest you go look up what in Charge means , then get back to me ........

[clarker]

the march into Baghadad was awesome , I think thats a first for an army of that size to move that fast ..... After the fall is the snafu , the Happy Iraqi plan didnt work .......


agreed .......


Yeah Patty has a selective memory ....... ;DThe march to Baghadad wasn't the problem, as Powell is said have warned them in Woodward's book, that if you go in with that small of force it will make it more difficult to maintain peace in the aftermath.

[clarker]

Exagerate ? WTF ? Using Rummys own words at the time , the Pictures are far too disturbing to release ...... 1 rape of a young boy is one too many . and Rummy was in Charge was he not ? I suggest you go look up what in Charge means , then get back to me ........You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to §Pide® again.

[Spider]

The march to Baghadad wasn't the problem, as Powell is said have warned them in Woodward's book, that if you go in with that small of force it will make it more difficult to maintain peace in the aftermath.
Powell Like Wesley Clark = Military genius ...... I wouldnt even think about questioning Powell on anything Military .... He has forgot more about war then any of us ever knew .....

[clarker]

Powell Like Wesley Clark = Military genius ...... I wouldnt even think about questioning Powell on anything Military .... He has forgot more about war then any of us ever knew .....I don't know much about Clark(other than his politcs from the election) so I won't argee or disagree on him, but Powell is a freaking genius. He knows a ton about world politics.

Have you ever read Woodward's (as you can tell I'm a big Woodward fan) book "The Commanders" about the first Gulf War? Good profile on Powell.

[Spider]

I don't know much about Clark(other than his politcs from the election) so I won't argee or disagree on him, but Powell is a freaking genius. He knows a ton about world politics.
Clark was a supreme commander of NATO ... Much like Powell , both are very well versed in what is going on .......

Have you ever read Woodward's (as you can tell I'm a big Woodward fan) book "The Commanders" about the first Gulf War? Good profile on Powell.
;D no I havent ,I dont doubt for a second about Powell though ......

[clarker]

Clark was a supreme commander of NATO ... Much like Powell , both are very well versed in what is going on .......


;D no I havent ,I dont doubt for a second about Powell though ......I recomend it if your interested in that kind of thing. And it sounds like you are.

[Spider]

I recomend it if your interested in that kind of thing. And it sounds like you are.
;D I will ....

[ak1971]

oh by the way..Ford and Chevy suck

[Spider]

oh by the way..Ford and Chevy suck
Douche Ram tough ...... Perfect womans truck .....

[Blueflame]

You're right, they did and my statement was careless and incorrect. But that doesn't change the fact that you and the rest of the hardcore administration critics around here were perfectly willing to exagerate the abuses in order to make political hay without regard to whether it was deterimental to our war effort. How many rapes took place again? But I'm sure you have it all figured out how Rumsfeld personally ordered each and every abuse.

Due to a couple of our past exchanges, I think this may be aimed at me, Patteeu... so I'll add my two cents here.

1) Since the administration is currently thumbing its collective nose at a court order to release the pictures/video of the abuses, we do not know the extent or scope of that evidence of prisoner abuse beyond Rumsfeld's admission that they depict a lot more than "frat pranks". So the question for you is this: How do you "know" that the "administration critics" "exaggerated" the abuses?

2) How can posters on a message board "make political hay" of any issue? Unless one is a politician with votes to woo, all we're doing here is exercising our right to freedom of speech and expressing one person's opinion.

3) It's interesting that you save your outrage for those who discuss the abuses on a message board, considering that to possibly be "detrimental to our war effort"... while totally giving a pass to those who apparently deemed that the Geneva Conventions rules don't apply to us.

4) How many rapes took place? How many would be required for you to think it was wrong?

5) As for Rumsfeld, the abuses are allegedly systematic enough (widespread throughout American detention centers from Guantanamo to Abu Ghraib to Afghanistan) that it would suggest that the rules regarding humane treatment of prisoners have been changed at the top of the chain of command. This is not the work of "a few bad apples". Someone needs to answer for that, don't you think?

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Due to a couple of our past exchanges, I think this may be aimed at me, Patteeu... so I'll add my two cents here.

1) Since the administration is currently thumbing its collective nose at a court order to release the pictures/video of the abuses, we do not know the extent or scope of that evidence of prisoner abuse beyond Rumsfeld's admission that they depict a lot more than "frat pranks". So the question for you is this: How do you "know" that the "administration critics" "exaggerated" the abuses?

2) How can posters on a message board "make political hay" of any issue? Unless one is a politician with votes to woo, all we're doing here is exercising our right to freedom of speech and expressing one person's opinion.

3) It's interesting that you save your outrage for those who discuss the abuses on a message board, considering that to possibly be "detrimental to our war effort"... while totally giving a pass to those who apparently deemed that the Geneva Conventions rules don't apply to us.

4) How many rapes took place? How many would be required for you to think it was wrong?

5) As for Rumsfeld, the abuses are allegedly systematic enough (widespread throughout American detention centers from Guantanamo to Abu Ghraib to Afghanistan) that it would suggest that the rules regarding humane treatment of prisoners have been changed at the top of the chain of command. This is not the work of "a few bad apples". Someone needs to answer for that, don't you think?


You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Blueflame again.

:thumbsup:

[Rausch]

Douche Ram tough ...... Perfect womans truck .....


You realize that Chevrolet is frog, right?....

[patteeu]

Due to a couple of our past exchanges, I think this may be aimed at me, Patteeu... so I'll add my two cents here.

Nah Blueflame, it wasn't aimed specifically at you. It was a general comment in response to Spider's thread title more than anything else.

1) Since the administration is currently thumbing its collective nose at a court order to release the pictures/video of the abuses, we do not know the extent or scope of that evidence of prisoner abuse beyond Rumsfeld's admission that they depict a lot more than "frat pranks". So the question for you is this: How do you "know" that the "administration critics" "exaggerated" the abuses?

The allegations along with the original photos were exaggerated. Spider is right that there were a couple of allegations of abuses that went beyond the original photos (e.g. the rape of a minor male prisoner), but critics treated the situation as though we had piles of photos showing the most gruesome torture and enough instances of rape and murder to justify suggestions that it was more than an isolated case of abuse perpetrated by a small number of people operating outside their charter. It doesn't matter what any thusfar undisclosed evidence shows. Previous exaggerations can't be justified by evidence that the critics had no way of knowing.

FWIW, we still don't have any reason to think that the military investigations (along with Congressional oversight) are insufficient to deal justice. In child sex abuse cases or brutal murders, we don't demand that photographic evidence be released so we can all see it on the nightly news. The crimes that were committed at Abu Ghraib should be and are being prosecuted. We don't need to act as a graphics supply house for our enemy's propaganda machine at the same time though.

2) How can posters on a message board "make political hay" of any issue? Unless one is a politician with votes to woo, all we're doing here is exercising our right to freedom of speech and expressing one person's opinion.

You're right that nothing here matters much. But politics is about public opinion as much as it is about having a vote to cast.

3) It's interesting that you save your outrage for those who discuss the abuses on a message board, considering that to possibly be "detrimental to our war effort"... while totally giving a pass to those who apparently deemed that the Geneva Conventions rules don't apply to us.

I don't know about anyone who says that the Geneva Convention rules don't apply to us.

4) How many rapes took place? How many would be required for you to think it was wrong?

You must have missed my first post in this thread (#179) where I explicitly said "rape and murder are wrong." How few rapes and murders does it take for you to side with our enemy?

5) As for Rumsfeld, the abuses are allegedly systematic enough (widespread throughout American detention centers from Guantanamo to Abu Ghraib to Afghanistan) that it would suggest that the rules regarding humane treatment of prisoners have been changed at the top of the chain of command. This is not the work of "a few bad apples". Someone needs to answer for that, don't you think?

There you go again. ::)

The people who need to answer for it are answering for it.

[Spider]

You realize that Chevrolet is frog, right?....
;D Shorten to Chevy ..... it isnt as bad I guess...... Le chevy Ha!

[Spider]

The allegations along with the original photos were exaggerated. Spider is right that there were a couple of allegations of abuses that went beyond the original photos (e.g. the rape of a minor male prisoner), but critics treated the situation as though we had piles of photos showing the most gruesome torture and enough instances of rape and murder to justify suggestions that it was more than an isolated case of abuse perpetrated by a small number of people operating outside their charter. It doesn't matter what any thusfar undisclosed evidence shows. Previous exaggerations can't be justified by evidence that the critics had no way of knowing.
a couple ? either you are so willing to carry water for Bush you ignore alot of things , or you live in a cave with very little contact with the outside world ....

[Spider]

The allegations along with the original photos were exaggerated. Spider is right that there were a couple of allegations of abuses that went beyond the original photos (e.g. the rape of a minor male prisoner), but critics treated the situation as though we had piles of photos showing the most gruesome torture and enough instances of rape and murder to justify suggestions that it was more than an isolated case of abuse perpetrated by a small number of people operating outside their charter. It doesn't matter what any thusfar undisclosed evidence shows. Previous exaggerations can't be justified by evidence that the critics had no way of knowing.
35 cases of death alone , not including rape you twit ..... more then a couple ....

[patteeu]

35 cases of death alone , not including rape you twit ..... more then a couple ....

You got a link for that, Mohammed?

[Spider]

You got a link for that, Mohammed?
Try reading ....... it works, first post on this thread you twit ......

[Montaq]

Try reading ....... it works, first post on this thread you twit ......

Technically, it was the second post. ;D

Al jazeera says 106 total between Iraq and Afghanistan.

http://www.aljazeera.com/me.asp?service_ID=7522

At least 108 detainees have died in U.S. custody in Iraq and Afghanistan, according to new government data released by the Associated Press news agency.

[Spider]

Technically, it was the second post. ;D

Al jazeera says 106 total between Iraq and Afghanistan.

http://www.aljazeera.com/me.asp?service_ID=7522
;D the link ......

[Montaq]

;D the link ......

I'll say it before RH does.

I'll just shut up and drink the Kool-Aid now. ;D

[Rascal]

I'll need something more credible then Al Jazeera. But I accept the fact that it was probably more then a couple.

[Montaq]

I'll need something more credible then Al Jazeera. But I accept the fact that it was probably more then a couple.

Like Spider's link in the original post? ???

[clarker]

Technically, it was the second post. ;D

Al jazeera says 106 total between Iraq and Afghanistan.

http://www.aljazeera.com/me.asp?service_ID=7522


I with you guys on this Abu Grhaib thing, but do you really trust anything Aljazeera puts out? You talk about FOX news and how bad they are(and I agree) but you trust Aljazeera?

That is weird to me.

[Montaq]

I with you guys on this Abu Grhaib thing, but do you really trust anything Aljazeera puts out? You talk about FOX news and how bad they are(and I agree) but you trust Aljazeera?

That is weird to me.

I don't put full faith in any one publication and I don't disbelieve everything I read or see on FoxNews.

I think Aljazeera is interesting to read at times.

[Spider]

I'll need something more credible then Al Jazeera. But I accept the fact that it was probably more then a couple.
I agree Al Jazeer has a agenda ....If somthing is important , I go to Mondo Times.com Find News papers all over the world , pick out several and see what they say ....... How freaking sad is it I have to do that instead of turning on our News and seeing the truth ................I tend to find Raw Story ( although it has a Left wing slant ) tends to be close , as with Yahoo news , CNN will nail it a couple of times

[Rascal]

Like Spider's link in the original post? ???

And that was quoting something else. But I found Spider's second post on CNN.

[Spider]

And that was quoting something else. But I found Spider's second post on CNN.
E&P has a 100% track record with me so far .....

[errand]

Should we not be better than those evil bastards?

I'm not saying we make it resort down there and I could care less if they sit there a million years without a trial, but I don't think the military should be rapping or murdering anyone.

It is not just the left. Republican senator's who have seen the photos say they are of murder and rape. Hell even Rummy said they are revolting. If it had only been John Kerry's of the world, I would say you might have a point about it being just politics as usual. But the reports are comming from Republicans who have seen the photos as well.


Being better doesn't always mean being nicer.

We could nuke the freaking place now and we'd still be better than those evil bastards.

Now, think....if these clowns had actual proof that there was murder and rape going on in that prison after we arrived, they would have plastered the videos and pictures all over the internet.

Rumsfeld has to say the pictures are revolting, even iuf they aren't because like it or not, his job is political....he can't always say what he wants to lest he be castrated in the press and in public opinion.

Besides, your not really upset that thugs who cut the heads off of their hostages are being beaten, killed or raped are you? I for one am not sadden that they're being "tortured".....they've done nothing but cause pain and sorrow for millions of people worldwide.....and it's about time they got their just desserts.

Seems to me they're reaping what they sowed....

[errand]

:laugh:

Yeah - maybe I was being a little too optimistic about human nature, the possibility of evolution, etc.

:D

So let me get this straight, someone claims the pictures, video and audio tapes exist, but you haven't seen them or heard them? LOL

Oh, well in that case what was I thinking? Let's hang 'em high and beat their wives.....

Just like the election fraud...the AWOL documents, and practically anything else you clowns have claimed...all you have is allegations, and nothing else.

[errand]

how about the lid errent ? where does that facotor into your rattle snake handling religion fit in ?

...I guess it'd be too much to ask the person receiving the coffee to check that the lid is secured before driving off? But even if that were too much to ask...how do you know she didn't remove the lid to add cream or sugar prior to the spill?

Ever think of factoring that in, clown?

[errand]

Bush could run down a troop of Boy scouts , drunk and Errand will still carry water for him ....... Saying somthing along the lines that the Boy scouts leader was gay and training the Kids to be terrorist .......

...anyone who knows me knows my stance on DUI, clown. Besides the Boy Scouts don't allow gays in their assembly....at least not knowingly.

[patteeu]

Try reading ....... it works, first post on this thread you twit ......

I guess that madrassa education of yours leaves something to be desired? Have someone read it to you again (in the 2nd post BTW) because it doesn't say what you thought it said. Dumbass.

[errand]

Well when LABF steps up and makes excuses for Kids getting sodomized in the name of fighting terrorism , under a Democrat , by all means feel free to point it out .......

Nobody is making excuses clown...all I'm asking for is proof.

Not accusations. P-R-O-O-F

When the photos, tapes and audio tapes are released, and they show what is claimed, then you'd be able to convince me it happened.

But when some leftists mouth piece runs a story about our troops behaving badly, I'm gonna take it as the usual attempt to degrade and dishonor our troops with false accusations, like John Kerry did in '70's, and the photos the Boston Globe claimed showed prisoners being raped....ends up they were from a gay internet site...or the documents caliming Bush was AWOL...again it ends up they were forged.

You cannot seriously wonder why people look at the media with raised eye brows when they make these type of false claims time after time. Like the boy who cried wolf...sooner or later nobody is gonna come when he cries for help, and the wolf is for real.

[patteeu]

;D the link ......

How many at Abu Ghraib, Mohammed? The subject I raised is exaggeration of the allegations at Abu Ghraib. You are doing exactly what I accused you and the rest of the useful idiots around here of doing.

[errand]

Is this the two wrongs make a right arguement?

For the record, LABF has mentioned many times that he's not a Democrat, he's a liberal. To me, his agenda doesn't seem to be about propping up Democrats but more about bashing Bush and his flunkies.


...his home page is a blog for the Democrat Party. But don't take my word for it....check it out yourself.

[Montaq]

...his home page is a blog for the Democrat Party. But don't take my word for it....check it out yourself.

hmmm... ok, I was wrong.

[errand]

:thumbsup:

Thanks for trying to explain the difference to him (not that it will likely do any good.)

Speaking of 'running issues into the ground,' even after I explained my feelings about the Democratic Party to clarker directly, he's still claiming in post after post that I'm a "blind loyalist" to the Democratic Party, etc., etc.

Just when you think there's hope for this guy, he reverts back to the same old neocon habit of ignoring facts and distorting the truth.


...yeah, like claiming he's not a "blind loyalist" to the Democrat Party despite the fact his homepage is a blog for the Democrat Party. You mean ignoring those facts and distorting that truth?

[errand]

News flash:

The bad news about BushCo isn't just being reported by "left-wing sites" - it's showing up on page one of every newspaper in America.

....and you really believe that every major newspaper in America isn't an extension of left-wing sites?

[errand]

I was talking about the Sodomy on young boys ... Like in the artical on this thread

..odd that you stand against young boys being sodomized, and yet, your liberal gay agenda supports those that wish to make such acts legal.

[errand]

and this has what to do with Rape ? I dont think Sodomy will be legal on boys under the age of 16....

...so you wouldn't have a problem if it were done to boys that are17 years old? hmmm...

[errand]

Show me where Dems support NAMBLA ...... Show me 1 Elected Democrat ....


How about you show us one politican that didn't take money from someone with out the donator getting something (usually legislation passed) in return?

[errand]

Look NAMBLA is pure Scum , and no question to it , that NAMBLA should be republicans , NAMBLA would have alot more support there .......

Ah, but NAMBLA knows that Dems are always in tight with special interest groups....especially those that promote immoral and abnormal behavior.

[errand]

all were elected? And they supported NAMBLA?

They were scum, no doubt, but I don't see any proof of them taking money from NAMBLA.

The fact is, the only wing that is supporting legalizing man-BOY relationships is the left. There may be people doing it on the right as that list you shows indicates, but you won't see any group publicly supporting it.

I took the liberty and highlighted the key words there Spider...and yet you still think that gay marriage won't set a precedent for this kind of crap?

[Montaq]

How about you show us one politican that didn't take money from someone with out the donator getting something (usually legislation passed) in return?

I donated to Kerry last year and I didn't want anything in return other then him winning.

Can I get a refund?

[errand]

all were elected? And they supported NAMBLA?

They were scum, no doubt, but I don't see any proof of them taking money from NAMBLA.

The fact is, the only wing that is supporting legalizing man-BOY relationships is the left. There may be people doing it on the right as that list you shows indicates, but you won't see any group publicly supporting it.

I took the liberty to highlight the key words Spider...

....still think that gay marriage won't set a precedent for this kind of crap to become reality?

[errand]

Kerry didn't take money from NAMBLA.

Yeah....right.

[errand]

So - I could say, "Rascal had sex with my dog" and it has to be true because it is now on the internet. ???

...why not? You leftist clowns have claimed election fraud, used forged documents to claim that Bush went AWOL, printed photos from a gay website to claim abuse and rape of Iraqi prisoners...claimed that Getmo is nothing more than a concentration camp or gulag...so why not spew another lie?

[Rigs11]

Being better doesn't always mean being nicer.

We could nuke the freaking place now and we'd still be better than those evil bastards.

Now, think....if these clowns had actual proof that there was murder and rape going on in that prison after we arrived, they would have plastered the videos and pictures all over the internet.

Rumsfeld has to say the pictures are revolting, even iuf they aren't because like it or not, his job is political....he can't always say what he wants to lest he be castrated in the press and in public opinion.

Besides, your not really upset that thugs who cut the heads off of their hostages are being beaten, killed or raped are you? I for one am not sadden that they're being "tortured".....they've done nothing but cause pain and sorrow for millions of people worldwide.....and it's about time they got their just desserts.

Seems to me they're reaping what they sowed....

You yourself seem to be a terrorist with your idiotic thinking. You sure as hell aren't better than them if you believe that nuking them is an otion. Again Error not every muslim is a terrorist, there are reports that the majority of the Iraqis at Abu Graib were innocent, there are reports of children being raped by some US soldiers. i can't believe that you are trying to justify this type of behavior. Terrorist.

[clarker]

...yeah, like claiming he's not a "blind loyalist" to the Democrat Party despite the fact his homepage is a blog for the Democrat Party. You mean ignoring those facts and distorting that truth?I disagree with you on Abu Grahib, but LABF is a blind loyalist to the Democratic Party. He will come back and say they are the lesser of two evils, but he still shills for them. His homepage proves that.

[errand]

hmmm... ok, I was wrong.


...no, you weren't wrong, you just happened to believe LABF because you generally think most people tell the truth...but the truth is..."he lied".

And if LABF is lying about his being the Dems personal whore....what else could he be lying about?

[errand]

I donated to Kerry last year and I didn't want anything in return other then him winning.

Can I get a refund?

Ah, but your special intereests are only your own....the gay agenda's voice is alot more vocal than the average joe's voice is.

The way he ran his campaign, you should have asked for one before the election....talk about not getting any bang for your buck.

BTW, you know he still had millions of $$$ left over from those hwo donated to him. I wonder if he used it to pay down the national debt he claimed Bush ran up?

[clarker]

Ah, but your special intereests are only your own....the gay agenda's voice is alot more vocal than the average joe's voice is.

The way he ran his campaign, you should have asked for one before the election....talk about not getting any bang for your buck.

BTW, you know he still had millions of $$$ left over from those hwo donated to him. I wonder if he used it to pay down the national debt he claimed Bush ran up?During one of the debate coverage MSNBC, Scarbough pointed out in Massachusetts people had the option of turning down the Bush tax cuts and Kerry and his billionare wife chose not too. Ron Reagon Jr., a liberal to say the least was right there to rebuke him if he was incorrect. He did not, so I assume Scarbough was correct.

So Kerry went around the country bashing the tax cuts for the rich, but he didn't have the conviction to turn it down on principle(SP?) when he had the chance. Big shock.

[errand]

You yourself seem to be a terrorist with your idiotic thinking. You sure as hell aren't better than them if you believe that nuking them is an otion. Again Error not every muslim is a terrorist, there are reports that the majority of the Iraqis at Abu Graib were innocent, there are reports of children being raped by some US soldiers. i can't believe that you are trying to justify this type of behavior. Terrorist.

It amazes me the number of you guys that have pity for those that would cut your freaking head off at the drop of a hat......

According to you clowns you don't want our troops in harm's way. Nuking the place would definitely keep our casualties to a minimum wouldn't it?

And no, not all Muslims are terrorists, but to date all terrorists have been Muslim...

The sad thing is you have more contempt for me, an American that hasn't murdered anyone, but wants to destroy those that have, than you do for those that have murdered, and will murder again, and again until they eliminate our entire existence.

You act as if the troops are just rounding up people and putting them into prison, then raping them and killing them. Those in that prison are there because they were trying to kill our troops.

You claim they're innocent people...well gee whiz, go to any prison and guess what? They're full of innocent people who were just wrongly accused...just ask the prisoners, they'll tell you this.

BTW, I'm not trying to justify anything,, but you think that we american's are reaping the seeds of hate a discontent set about by our foriegn policies, but now you take exception that someone points out that those that murder and rape in the name of Allah are now harvesting the fruits of their labor?

They live by the sword...and they'll get one shoved up their ass now.

[Montaq]

I during one of the debate coverage MSNBC, Scarbough pointed out in Massachusetts people had the option of turning down the Bush tax cuts and Kerry and his billionare wife chose not too. Ron Reagon Jr., a liberal to say the least was right there to rebuke him if he was incorrect. He did not, so I assume Scarbough was correct.

So Kerry went around the country bashing the tax cuts for the rich, but he didn't have the conviction to turn it down on principle(SP?) when he had the chance. Big shock.

Ok - who in their right mind is going to give their money to the government if they don't have to? How do you know what Kerry did with his tax cut? Maybe he gave it to a charity that he would have normally thought the government should support. Maybe he put it toward stem-cell research since the government doesn't want to fund it. If you give the money back or don't take the cut then you're allowing Bush to spend how he sees fit and now how you see fit.

And just because Ron Reagan Jr is semi-liberal it doesn't mean that he would know how Kerry filed his taxes. Reagan is more of a social liberal and an independent isn't a spokeperson for Kerry or the Democratic party.

[Montaq]

And no, not all Muslims are terrorists, but to date all terrorists have been Muslim...


Timothy McVeigh was Muslim?

[Rascal]

But it was never disputed by Kerry's people anyway, that I'm aware of anyway, either.

[RaiderH8r]

Ok - who in their right mind is going to give their money to the government if they don't have to? How do you know what Kerry did with his tax cut? Maybe he gave it to a charity that he would have normally thought the government should support. Maybe he put it toward stem-cell research since the government doesn't want to fund it. If you give the money back or don't take the cut then you're allowing Bush to spend how he sees fit and now how you seem fit.

And just because Ron Reagan Jr is semi-liberal it doesn't mean that he would know how Kerry filed his taxes. Reagan is more of a social liberal and an independent isn't a spokeperson for Kerry or the Democratic party.
I find this amusing. I would opt for legislation that people can turn over their tax refunds to offset the national debt. Would the michael moore's, alec baldwins, james brolins, and john kerrys of the world pony up based on their ideaology? Probably not, they want you to pony up your end but they can do the same thing they spew about other rich people...hide their money. And they do. F@ck'em, it's my money. I'm keeping it.

[errand]

I during one of the debate coverage MSNBC, Scarbough pointed out in Massachusetts people had the option of turning down the Bush tax cuts and Kerry and his billionare wife chose not too.

So Kerry went around the country bashing the tax cuts for the rich, but he didn't have the conviction to turn it down on principle(SP?) when he had the chance. Big shock.

Kerry has to say that crap to energize his base. Those on the left live to blast those who put in more effort than they have and achieved financial success...because the left believes in equal outcome regardless of effort put forth.

[Montaq]

I find this amusing. I would opt for legislation that people can turn over their tax refunds to offset the national debt. Would the michael moore's, alec baldwins, james brolins, and john kerrys of the world pony up based on their ideaology? Probably not, they want you to pony up your end but they can do the same thing they spew about other rich people...hide their money. And they do. F@ck'em, it's my money. I'm keeping it.

And people who think the government should be in charge of preserving the sanctity of marriage should not be allowed to divorce.

[Rascal]

Yeah somebody finally got the hypocrisy that comes from both sides of the isle....CONGRATS TO MONTAQ. Just depends on what issues you are willing to accept that hypocrisy.

[Rigs11]

It amazes me the number of you guys that have pity for those that would cut your freaking head off at the drop of a hat......

According to you clowns you don't want our troops in harm's way. Nuking the place would definitely keep our casualties to a minimum wouldn't it?

And no, not all Muslims are terrorists, but to date all terrorists have been Muslim...

The sad thing is you have more contempt for me, an American that hasn't murdered anyone, but wants to destroy those that have, than you do for those that have murdered, and will murder again, and again until they eliminate our entire existence.

You act as if the troops are just rounding up people and putting them into prison, then raping them and killing them. Those in that prison are there because they were trying to kill our troops.

You claim they're innocent people...well gee whiz, go to any prison and guess what? They're full of innocent people who were just wrongly accused...just ask the prisoners, they'll tell you this.

BTW, I'm not trying to justify anything,, but you think that we american's are reaping the seeds of hate a discontent set about by our foriegn policies, but now you take exception that someone points out that those that murder and rape in the name of Allah are now harvesting the fruits of their labor?

They live by the sword...and they'll get one shoved up their ass now.

It's not as simple as your John Wayne mentality, you can't nuke everyone simpleton.What do you think happens when Iraqi civilians get caught in the crossfire? Their families gain hate for the US which creates more terrorists. This war on Terror as Dumbya calls it cannot be won through force. The more you kill the more terrorists will spawn.Again I don't have pity for ones that cut off heads and yet I would not treat them the way that those soldiers did. Those acts are sickening and disgusting no matter what nationality you are, You always post here about how evil the terrorists are and how terrible their acts are and yet you post that we should perfor even more evil acts and that somehow they are justified. If you trully call yourself an American try and hold yourself to a higher set of values.

[clarker]

Ok - who in their right mind is going to give their money to the government if they don't have to? How do you know what Kerry did with his tax cut? Maybe he gave it to a charity that he would have normally thought the government should support. Maybe he put it toward stem-cell research since the government doesn't want to fund it. If you give the money back or don't take the cut then you're allowing Bush to spend how he sees fit and now how you see fit.

And just because Ron Reagan Jr is semi-liberal it doesn't mean that he would know how Kerry filed his taxes. Reagan is more of a social liberal and an independent isn't a spokeperson for Kerry or the Democratic party.If someone is going to run for President and claim that one of the things the current President did wrong was give a tax cut to the rich. How can he accept it when he has a chance to turn it down. He is the one claiming that the "tax cut for the rich" is bad for the country. So why did he take it? He wants to lead the country, to put them back on the right track, but he takes part in something he stated over and over again was bad for the country.

Libs are the guys who whine about tax cuts for the rich, not me. Who is to say that rich people won't do the same things you claim that Kerry could have done with the money he saved on the tax cut? Oh, that is right only left wingers give to charity. Right wingers only care about money, even though you can write off money given to charity. So even if all you care about is money, it is profitable to give to charity.

As for Ron Reagon, they have production meetings, those shows are scripted or at least you have a rough idea of what the other points will say. He could have one of the many interns at MSNBC fact check what Scarbough claimed.

[errand]

Timothy McVeigh was Muslim?

With apologies to Eddie Murphy in "Coming to America" -

"Oh there they go again...every damn time I start talking about terrorists, damn liberal gotta pull Timothy McVeigh out their ass...

That's their one...That's their one, Timmothy McVeigh!...Timothy McVeigh!"

OK, and while we're at it, I'll even give ya Eric Rudolph....fair enough? So on edit, "to date every terrorist except twohave been Muslim".

Happy now Hadji?

[clarker]

Kerry has to say that crap to energize his base. Those on the left live to blast those who put in more effort than they have and achieved financial success...because the left believes in equal outcome regardless of effort put forth.Well the only effort Kerry put is banging that homely wife of his.

[Montaq]

With apologies to Eddie Murphy in "Coming to America" -

"Oh there they go again...every damn time I start talking about terrorists, damn liberal gotta pull Timothy McVeigh out their ass...

That's their one...That's their one, Timmothy McVeigh!...Timothy McVeigh!"

OK, and while we're at it, I'll even give ya Eric Rudolph....fair enough? So on edit, "to date every terrorist except twohave been Muslim".

Happy now Hadji?

That was actually funny.