Time's come for Warren's showing

[SoCalBronco]

Time's come for Warren's showing
Broncos will learn which personality will be on display

By Lee Rasizer, Rocky Mountain News
July 23, 2005

The off-season trade sending Gerard Warren to the Denver Broncos for a fourth-round draft pick in essence was a two-for-one deal.

The team obtained Warren.


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It also acquired "Big Money."

The two are one and the same, yet completely different entities. And, ultimately, which side of the defensive tackle's personality shines through most might determine whether his acquisition from the Cleveland Browns was more than Denver bargained for, or a bargain, beginning Thursday when the team begins its 2005 training camp.

"There are two personas there," acknowledged Jeremy Green, who worked in the Browns' pro personnel department during all four of Warren's pro seasons, three as its director. "Hopefully, for the Broncos' sake, they get Gerard Warren."

At his core, Warren is a small-town country boy hailing from Raiford, Fla. - population 300.

To kill time as a youth he would hunt, shoot and fish. He chased pigs and cows for fun.

[SoCalBronco]

On the football field, he trailed quarterbacks with similar glee.

He helped his high school team, Union County, become a powerhouse that amassed three consecutive championships and 40 consecutive wins, and was an honor student.

Warren later became a dominant force at defensive tackle at the University of Florida, where he described football as "just like waking up in the morning and brushing my teeth" and life outside the sport something he had to get a "grip on."

He was so good he became the first overall defensive player drafted in 2001, after his junior season.

In other words, he lived up to his bold nickname.

"Big Money," as his prep line coach dubbed him because of his pro potential, ended up bagging just that - $12 million in bonuses from the Browns as the third overall selection.

Not bad for a kid who hadn't been outside his home state until landing in the Southeastern Conference.

[SoCalBronco]

Warren, for better or worse, soon became the face of the Cleveland organization as the first pick of the Butch Davis era. It was a distinction borne of Warren's draft pedigree and, more than anything else, the fact he was playing for a young Browns team.

In hindsight, it probably was a role for which he wasn't entirely suited in his early 20s, with money to burn and a taste for nightlife.

Later, with Cleveland consistently fielding a losing team, his public image morphed into something altogether different than spokesman.

"He became the poster child for everything bad in Cleveland," said Andre Patterson, Warren's position coach for his final two seasons there and now a Broncos assistant.

Some, but not all, of that image, Warren brought upon himself. People close to him call him articulate, smart and funny, and sharp in his knowledge of his chosen profession.

He'll quietly donate 16 pairs of shoes to his high school or show up to make pregame speeches during his off week.

But, every so often, Big Money inevitably would butt in and create problems.

"The other side was the side that gained street cred," Patterson said of Warren's dual personality. "And he didn't grow up that way."

Warren might prance around the locker room singing profane rap lyrics or blast his boom box when he didn't want to be bothered with leadership issues, which infuriated some in the Browns complex who didn't want that to be the image the organization portrayed.

[SoCalBronco]

He was popular to many fans in Cleveland for his outspoken nature and sincere love for the city. But when he returned from a productive rookie season overweight and unable to duplicate his success, he had created an image through the media as an unmotivated underachiever that has been hard to shake. He was arrested on a gun-possession charge in 2001, further tarnishing his image.

"The Cleveland press had already tagged him with, 'He's lazy on the field' and all that stuff before I got there," said Patterson, who joined the Browns staff in 2003. "That stuck no matter what I said. And I'd tell them he's never been that way with me."

Some teammates took umbrage at what they perceived as preferential treatment, something Green said Warren did get but isn't unusual for certain players on any NFL team.

But even Warren's attempts at accountability and leadership backfired when Big Money was doing the talking.

In a word . . . trouble

A comment aimed at Pittsburgh Steelers quarterback Ben Roethlisberger last season was meant to rally a flagging team. Warren, in front of television cameras and whirring tape recorders, paraphrased one of the hip-hop songs he loved by rapper Trick Daddy, "Kill the head and the body's dead."

[SoCalBronco]

In retrospect, they were Warren's famous last words.

"I called my father that day and told him I don't know what's going to happen in Cleveland but they just threw me out of the boat, so fasten your seat belts, because there's going to be a ride, I think," Warren recalled.

Lost in the translation of the Roethlisberger tumult was Warren's explanation that "if you can rattle the head, which is the quarterback on every team, then the body, which is the team, can't function."

Nevertheless, Browns ownership seethed, putting out a disclaimer the following day distan- cing the organization from Warren's words.

"Any time you mention 'killing,' that's a bad word, even though it's the lyrics from a song," said Charles Warren, Gerard's father. "In the National Football League, lyrics like that put you in a position to be an outcast. You can't just say those kind of things."

Davis' resignation two weeks later removed a key ally, and speculation began that the end of Warren's stay in Cleveland was near. When interim coach Terry Robiskie, another Warren backer, didn't get the full-time job as head coach, the lineman's tenure was winding down.

[SoCalBronco]

It didn't help that a new regime wanted to clean house of perceived negatives. Cleveland's switch to a 3-4 alignment under Romeo Crennel didn't fit Warren's game, and Patterson's departure to Denver made the decision for the new Browns staff a no-brainer.

"The impression among the Browns was that I was the only guy that could control him," Patterson said. "And I know that was told to Romeo."

Big Money officially had become devalued currency.

"He hasn't been a productive player. He has not played up to his ability," Green said, summing up Warren's problems with the Browns. "Some of that is Gerard and Gerard's immaturity. Some of that was the system we used in Cleveland."

Warren accumulated 113 solo tackles, 37 assists and 16.5 sacks in four seasons, certainly not eye-popping statistics.

[SoCalBronco]

Learning from the past

But even stocks that hit rock bottom can rebound suddenly. That was the Broncos' thinking, especially since the price was low - they did pick up a $1.3 million roster bonus Cleveland declined to pay - and Warren figures to be motivated by his sudden downfall and contract status. He's in the last year of his contract, with the final season of his original deal already voided.

"Personally, I feel like I'm out on bail right now," Warren said earlier this month. "Nothing guaranteed. Just go out and play this season and rewrite your whole history in the NFL. Those guys didn't want me in Cleveland, and I found a new home here. So automatically, when that took place, I was like, 'It's time.' "

Charles Warren recalled a conversation with his son a couple of weeks ago: "He said, 'I'm going to go out and show these people in Denver that I am who I am. And I will show them that I know football.' "

Warren still has some qualities of a blue chipper. He will turn 27 on Monday and possesses agility, strength and quickness rare for a player weighing about 330 pounds. The Broncos hope he can draw upon his Cleveland experience to avert mistakes.

"He's the type that once you sit down and talk to Gerard and tell him what you want - and you have to keep your thumb on him, not footballwise, but letting him know what's at stake and everything else - he'll do it," said Rod Broadway, Warren's defensive line coach in college.

[SoCalBronco]

Perhaps most important if Warren is to succeed in Denver is that he has a group of veteran players surrounding him that can kick him in the rear if things go awry, and the respect is such that he'll listen.

"I think in Denver he's got to keep his mouth shut, follow the lead of a guy like Trevor Pryce and really start playing up to his abilities," said Green, who will join ESPN as an analyst this season. "Gerard is talented, but Gerard is very immature. He's a great kid. He's harmless. He's not a bad kid or a kid that's going to be in trouble running the streets. He's a good 'ol country boy. But I think he really needs to work on his focus and maturity.

"I think this is a great move for Gerard Warren. He's got a chance in a new city in a defense that better suits his ability, and I think you'll see a different Gerard Warren than you saw in Cleveland."

Patterson said that if Warren had leadership to lean on from the beginning, he might never have gotten the rap he now has to shake.

"When he came here, one of the things I told him is to leave 'Big Money' in Florida," Patterson said. "And since he's been a Denver Bronco, he's just been him. He's just been Gerard Warren. And I think he's flourished from that."

[SoCalBronco]

High hopes for a while

Warren's tenure in Cleveland started with similar positive overtones.

Some fans were upset when the team passed on LaDainian Tomlinson in the draft, but once Warren played well in his first year, the logic of pairing him with 2000 first-round pick Courtney Brown, to form a potentially dominating defensive-line tandem, seemed to make sense.

But in 2002, Warren reported to camp at 350 pounds. His lack of conditioning contributed to a sharp decline in performance. And Brown, beset by injuries, rarely was at his side thereafter. (In an interesting twist, Brown, who Warren replaced as the face of the Browns, is playing in Denver, too. He'll line up on the same front four as Warren.)

A switch in defensive coordinator from Foge Fazio to Dave Campo in 2002 also meant a change in Warren's job description, from a penetrating, attacking tackle to taking on double teams as a nose tackle and keeping bodies off Browns middle linebacker Andra Davis.

Warren has had similar responsibilities the past two seasons and, at times, has played well.

Last season ended with the Browns allowing Warren to go back to his attacking style. And, Warren's dedication improved, perhaps providing more evidence Denver might be getting him at the right time. He reported to camp 27 pounds lighter last off-season before a torn pectoral muscle set him back, and Broncos coaches have lauded Warren's dedication in their off-season program.

"Really, we give a guy three or four years as a defensive linemen to develop," said an AFC personnel director who has studied Warren on tape. "It's hard for a young kid to come in and dominate. So I don't think he's over the hill. I think he's just coming into it."

Still, this was the third overall pick in the draft, and in Cleveland, expectations were higher.

[SoCalBronco]

When Warren was drafted, one Cleveland columnist wrote, "No pressure, but where the Browns drafted him he'll have to become synonymous with Cleveland Browns football as Warren Sapp is with Tampa Bay to justify the pick."

That type of pressure has been part of Warren's life since he was 14 and told by his high school coach, Robby Pruitt, he would be the player who would win him championships.

Back then, Warren would get free admission to basketball games and complimentary food at restaurants for being a prep star, but he also was held to a different standard because of his talent in a town where everyone knew him.

At Florida, Warren was watched just as closely - in one episode he was suspended for marijuana use, and in another he was handcuffed after a brawl with University of Miami players on Bourbon Street in New Orleans before the 2001 Sugar Bowl - and emerged on the other side a multimillionaire.

The common thread between high school and college was consistent winning.

"Until I went to Cleveland," Warren said.

His Browns teams won only 25 of 65 games, and "no matter how much money I get or how much money I make, it could never pacify losing," Warren said. "It was exhausting mentally," and created "a negativity around the building" that the franchise never shook.

In Warren's view, he tried to take on a leadership role to help reverse that thinking but was rebuffed in the locker room, where cliques emerged and "pretty much destroyed the team and brought coach Davis' career to an end."

Warren said the Browns as an organization "didn't accept their responsibility in trying to bring a championship to the city," especially when comparing it to his experience with the Broncos, where the focus is winning the Super Bowl without "excuses" or "power trips" between players and coaches.

[SoCalBronco]

"I wanted to win so bad that I was going around trying to demand the best out of players . . . and I could never really find what I was trying to tap into," Warren said. "But at the same time, a lot of the stuff was being shoveled under my name as what was the problem. I was just trying to find a way to win."

Warren often looked to Patterson for counsel about how to get his hands around the leadership issue.

"But to be a leader you have to be a consistent person," Patterson responded. "Your teammates have to see who you are. You can't be up and down."

"That's one of Gerard's biggest problems," Green said. "He worries too much about what's going on around him instead of worrying about Gerard and getting Gerard to play well. You can't be a 'me' guy. . . . And I think if he concentrated more on being the best player he could be and playing up to his abilities, he could probably bring other people with him."

[SoCalBronco]

Now, 'I'm the underdog'

Warren isn't necessarily being counted on as a team leader in Denver. The Broncos already have linebacker Al Wilson, wide receiver Rod Smith, quarterback Jake Plummer, cornerback Champ Bailey and safety John Lynch, among others, making up the team identity.

If Warren is to become a star now, it will be because of his on-field contributions.

Being just another guy, "is a blow to the ego, but a relief," Warren said. "I'm the underdog."

Patterson predicts Warren still can be the star he was projected to be - if he can be consistent week to week, in his personality and on-field performance. Just don't judge him solely on sacks.

"They got a steal," Broadway said of the Broncos. "Once it all clicks for him and that light goes on and he wants to dominate, they're going to be pleasantly surprised by what this guy can do on a football field.

"Don't judge him by the past. What's done is done and you can't change that. Just get to know the guy and see the beauty in him."

[Crushaholic]

Let's go, "Big Money". I'm pulling for you to help this team win... :Broncos:

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Donuts!

[Atlas]

That is a great article and Warren is a great talent BUT is there one person here that thinks if he sucks Shanny will hesitate one moment in cutting him?? If Warren sucks he will not play with Denver.

Warren is going to have a good year.

[Kaylore]

Well I hope the best for him. He's got nothing to lose. He's basically got his last shot. I hope that he's able to find something possitive out of that.

[elsid13]

That is a great article and Warren is a great talent BUT is there one person here that thinks if he sucks Shanny will hesitate one moment in cutting him?? If Warren sucks he will not play with Denver.

Warren is going to have a good year.


Not only will Shanny cut him if there a problem, he go out of his way to make sure the rest of the team and league that he was bad player, ie. the iHOP Gardner. Plus some of the crap the Brown locker room allowed would never happen in Denver. Between Al, Lynch and Pryce., Warren will be motivated and well lead.

[baja]

I think he is going to be a one man wrecking crew, the timing and circumstances are right.

[watermock]

I honestly think this change of scenery is going to do him a world of good. It should get a bunch of Klingons off his back. There is no question Butch Davis didn't how to run that team, I thought he would be successful, one reason is all the high draft choices... I was wrong.

I will say it again...we don't need Warren to be a savior, as much as the east coast morons think we have everything staked on him, we simply don't. I'm expecting him to perform above expectations...not like the 3rd overall pick, but a solid DT to anchor the line. He's healthy, young, and has upside. He sounds like a small town kid that was thrown in the spotlight and wasn't ready. For all the "party animal" hype, he hasn't really run into the law or the drug program to my knowlege.

We could of stumbled into a player that has matured and is highly motivated, especially in a contract year. I hate to make predictions, but if he concentrates about his job, he could be a real factor. Unless his posse followed him, new digs could really set him off. I don't think he was mentally ready for the NFL when he came into the league.

[baja]

When you give a kid in his 20's who grew up poor millions of dollars few can cope with the pressure of that. Warren is a good example. I think this kid will help make the Broncos D special

[SpringStein]

When you give a kid in his 20's who grew up poor millions of dollars few can cope with the pressure of that. Warren is a good example. I think this kid will help make the Broncos D special

He needs to let Rod share his money management skills with him.

[watermock]

I'm staying in the homer mode...it's a happy place...

Anyone who has read my posts after a rediculous loss knows I am prone to be bitter and hatefull. Let me rest my blood pressure for a few more weeks.

[watermock]

He needs to let Rod share his money management skills with him.

I have heard Rod is a real miser to the point of rediculous. That's fine, he fought his way onto the team. I've heard he's like a squirrel storing nuts. That's cool. He will have a nice stash when it's all said and done.

[Paladin]

There is truth to the notion that Warren does not need to be a great "star" player. If he can play a little above average, he will stregthen this team. It is not like this team was dismal on D last year; they were certainly above average. Most of the writers just do not understand that. The entire package may be somewhat of a reach for the golden ring, but the Broncos need only somewhat modest improvement in the Dline. With Pryce back, they already have that. Now we will find out if they can take the next step: win the Division and the first round game.

[watermock]

Exactly. If Pryce can stay healthy, and he says he is, Warren can man up inside, most of the line is back, and if C. Brown can just keep on his rehab and be ready by september, The line is going to be awesome.

I need a C. Brown update, I can't remember if they pulled the screws out of the ligaments yet. Last thing I heard is he still has pain, but it's basically healed. It would of been nice if they could of pulled the screws. That's kinda scary. You want all of the foot to be able to flex.

Anyone know if they have pulled the screws yet?

[elsid13]

I have heard Rod is a real miser to the point of rediculous. That's fine, he fought his way onto the team. I've heard he's like a squirrel storing nuts. That's cool. He will have a nice stash when it's all said and done.


Somehow I don't think that Rod will be selling his THREE( homer mode) superbowls rings on eBay.

[watermock]

I'd like to know how he got three. We won two.

[elsid13]

I'd like to know how he got three. We won two.


When we win it this year. I told you homer mode

[Broncoman13]

I think he's talking three as in the third one coming at the end of THIS SEASON! Thus the Homer mode.

You'll have to excuse my friend Mock, sometimes he 'just ain't there', if you know what I mean! ;D

[Ray Finkle]

I think he was worth the 4th the Broncos gave up but don't see him being anything other than solid....

[Play2win]

I just skimmed through the article, but I found this:

Lost in the translation of the Roethlisberger tumult was Warren's explanation that "if you can rattle the head, which is the quarterback on every team, then the body, which is the team, can't function."

That is actually a pretty smart thing to say. I'll have to say I might even be a little impressed.

To think about it in those terms. I just hope he creates Havok in many of a team's Head (brain? mind?) this year. Here's to Warren having a "Killer" year!!

[elsid13]

I think he's talking three as in the third one coming at the end of THIS SEASON! Thus the Homer mode.

You'll have to excuse my friend Mock, sometimes he 'just ain't there', if you know what I mean! ;D


It alright, I understand when you are writing your PHD dissertation on the mating habit on cats that real world is not always there.

[watermock]

I'm always amused with Horry's 9 rings. Or is it ten? For a role player, the guy sure seems adept at collecting them.

I remember the thread that he wasn't clutch. Well, he's got the balls to take that last shot.

[watermock]

I think he's talking three as in the third one coming at the end of THIS SEASON! Thus the Homer mode.

You'll have to excuse my friend Mock, sometimes he 'just ain't there', if you know what I mean! ;D

Since he was speaking in the past tense, wouldn't it be more appropriate to consider that first, if you know what I mean?

[-Slap-]

A comment aimed at Pittsburgh Steelers quarterback Ben Roethlisberger last season was meant to rally a flagging team. Warren, in front of television cameras and whirring tape recorders, paraphrased one of the hip-hop songs he loved by rapper Trick Daddy, "Kill the head and the body's dead."

In retrospect, they were Warren's famous last words.

"I called my father that day and told him I don't know what's going to happen in Cleveland but they just threw me out of the boat, so fasten your seat belts, because there's going to be a ride, I think," Warren recalled.

Lost in the translation of the Roethlisberger tumult was Warren's explanation that "if you can rattle the head, which is the quarterback on every team, then the body, which is the team, can't function."

Nevertheless, Browns ownership seethed, putting out a disclaimer the following day distan- cing the organization from Warren's words.

"Any time you mention 'killing,' that's a bad word, even though it's the lyrics from a song," said Charles Warren, Gerard's father. "In the National Football League, lyrics like that put you in a position to be an outcast. You can't just say those kind of things."
I said this was a joke when it happened and nothing has changed my opinion since then. What would these pansies in the League office have done if Deacon Jones was playing today? He couldn't go five minutes without talking about pulling a quarterback's spine out through his mouth. Now people freak out over some simple trash talk.

Its really funny. Actual killers like Leonard Little and Ray Lewis have their asses kissed to a fine polish by their organizations, but some dumb kid makes a reckless comment and everyone in Cleveland is ****ting bricks. What a bass ackwards culture.

[TotallyScrewed]

Heck, if Warren plays average DT, this D-line is improved. If he plays average for a player of his size and talent, this Denver D-line will be much improved and if he plays hungry...

The big question marks are about getting and staying healthy. Trevor, Warren, Brown, Ellis, Walls, Bell, Watts, Anderson, Plummer... Did I leave anyone out??

Does anyone else find it sad that a player with $12M in bonus money "quietly gives 16 pair of shoes" is touted as a big character demonstration? Good grief.

[SouthStndJunkie]

He is my adopt a bronco for a reason. This year he will be playing for a contract as well....look for a big year. The guy has all the talent in the world. I think him leaving Cleveland is similar to players leaving Arizona to find greener pastures.

SSJ

[orinjkrush]

sounds like warren can have a real break out year this time. what interests me is shanny's apparent adaptation of Wierd Al Davis's approach to signing first rounders and heisman winners who are on their last legs or haven't performed up to snuff, and giving them just one last try (just win baby). i wonder if shanny's doing that consciously or not? And if he is, is it to keep some of this talent away from Old Wierd Al? (like stocking 100 DLs and DEs when Chokeland's D sucks so bad). just ruminatin..

[TheReverend]

Great article! Thanks SoCal.

[-Slap-]

Some fans were upset when the team passed on LaDainian Tomlinson in the draft, but once Warren played well in his first year, the logic of pairing him with 2000 first-round pick Courtney Brown, to form a potentially dominating defensive-line tandem, seemed to make sense.

I can see where the average Brown fan is coming from, though. It would be hard not to hate this kid, knowing we passed up LT to get him.

[watermock]

Who needs LT2 when you have William Green?

[NFLBRONCO]

There is truth to the notion that Warren does not need to be a great "star" player. If he can play a little above average, he will stregthen this team. It is not like this team was dismal on D last year; they were certainly above average. Most of the writers just do not understand that. The entire package may be somewhat of a reach for the golden ring, but the Broncos need only somewhat modest improvement in the Dline. With Pryce back, they already have that. Now we will find out if they can take the next step: win the Division and the first round game.

I guess I think different I hope he turns out to be a star player. We need star players to play like star players on constant basis. We already have seen what just being slightly better then avg players has done lately NOTHING.

[Atlas]

I like that he still has people who know him saying he could be good. That tells something of his character when he has people that are opening rooting for him.

[Cito Pelon]

Warren said, "I feel like I'm out on bail." If he would have said that in Cleveland, sportswriters would have taken that random quote totally out of context, and made it into a column.

Fortunately, we don't have Woody Paige around anymore to take something innocent like that and wind it up, trying to make it into a national career. We do still have a few local media that will take that one little thing and add it in if they decide in the future to pick on Warren.

Maybe bland guys in the local media aren't so bad after all . . . .

[Rascal]

I believe Woody Paige is still around.

[delany]

He has a good year...he gets a new contract.

It is pretty simple for him.

Like Baja said. The timing and circumstances are perfect for him.

If he doesn't succeed this year...I can't see him succeeding in any other situation.

[footstepsfrom#27]

This is in sections because this server won't post anything this large for me apparently

I'm still trying to figure out exactly why this guy was so hated in Cleveland. Breaking down this story I see three things that apparently drove him out of town. 1) He was expected to be the next Warren Sapp, and he wasn't. 2) He rubbed people the wrong way with well intentioned but probably poorly thought out things he said and did. 3) They needed a scape goat and he was a convenient choice.

Nowhere in this story do I fiind more than vague references to his play on the field not living up to expectations. Look at this for example:
It didn't help that a new regime wanted to clean house of perceived negatives. Cleveland's switch to a 3-4 alignment under Romeo Crennel didn't fit Warren's game, and Patterson's departure to Denver made the decision for the new Browns staff a no-brainer.

continued...

[footstepsfrom#27]

My question is...WHY? How exactly does a 6'4", 330 pound DT not fit in the 3-4 defense? It seems to me he'd be the prototype guy. Now look at this:
"He hasn't been a productive player. He has not played up to his ability," Green said, summing up Warren's problems with the Browns. "Some of that is Gerard and Gerard's immaturity. Some of that was the system we used in Cleveland."
This doesn't make a lot of sense. This guy mentions his imaturity but again he refers to Cleveland's system as not suiting him. I fail to see the relevance of their system in the whole thing. They started off in the 4-3 and they were unhappy with his plaly in that system and then they decided to switch, but when you look at the numbers, they were not that bad at all, 113 solo tackles, 37 assists and 16.5 sacks in four seasons for a run stuffing DT is actually fairly good. He got 38 tackles and 4 sacks a year on average. Those are not Warren Sapp numbers (Sapp had 179 tackles and 29.5 sacks in his first 4 years) but comparing other DT's to Sapp might be unfair. For one thing, Sapp had a good supporting cast, something Warren has not had. For another thing, Sapp's numbers represent the elite level for a DT and comparing almost anyone elses sack totals to his, you're bound to come up short. Trevor Pryce beats his numbers but I don't recall if Pryce played all DT in his 1st four years...some of those may have been from the DE spot.

[footstepsfrom#27]

I looked at a few other DT's who have had successful careers out of curiosity to see how they fared in their first four years in the league sack-wise and noticed something that should be obvious but I'll mention it anyway. Nearly all the big sack master DT's are smaller, quicker guys in the sub 300 pound range. Sapp was listed at 300 even, Pryce/295, Glover/282, Simon/292, Young/291 etc...In this list below, Sam Adams and Richard Seymour are the only two guys over 300 pounds who got at least 20 sacks in their first 4 years in the NFL and their totals equate to roughly one more sack per year than Warren. It could easily be argued that is more than accounted for by the benefit they each received playing on great defenses in New England and Baltimore. Kris Jenkins at 335 might have had 20 sacks had he not missed 11 games but that's uncertain. He also has benefited from playing on a great defense. Here are the first 4 year sack totals on these guys:

Russel Maryland (Dallas/pro bowler '93)- 12 1/2 sacks
Leon Lett (Dallas/2 time pro bowler)- 7 1/2 sacks
Sam Adams (Seattle/3 time pro bowler)- 20 Sacks
La'Roi Glover (Oak/NO-5 time pro bowler) 25 sacks
Kris Jenkins (Carolina/2 time pro bowler)- 15 sacks
Corey Simon (Philly-1 pro bowl) 26 1/2 sacks
Bryant Young (San Fran/4 time pro bowler)- 27 1/2 sacks
Richard Seymour (New England/ 3 time pro bowler)- 21 1/2 sacks
Shaun Rogers (Detroit/ 2004 pro bowl)- 13 1/2 sacks
Casey Hampton (Pittsburgh/2004 pro bowl)- 4 sacks
Trevor Pryce (Denver/4 time pro bowler)- 35 1/2 sacks

The point is this: Warren's stats are roughly equivilent to most other successful big 300 pound plus DT's in the NFL who are asked to play a bigger part in stopping the run than the pass, and superior to some who have been in the pro bowl. For the bigger guys, (Adams, Jenkins, Rogers, Hampton, Seymour), Warren's numbers are in the middle of the pack and all those guys have been to the pro bowl). His numbers are also better than pro bowlers Maryland and Lett two other pro bowl players better at the run than the pass. I'll grant that stats don't tell the whole story. But they do tell a good part of it and in what was clearly a chaotic environment in Cleveland, if anything he seems to have been more consistent than they are admitting. So apart from acting childish or silly at times, hardly unheard of in the NFL, how exactly did this guy fail on the field? Browns fans seem to hate him but I wonder how much of that was out of simple frustration with him not living up to what were probably largely media built expectations in comparing him to Sapp. For a 4th rounder, this does seem like a steal.

[DB-Freak]

I looked at a few other DT's who have had successful careers out of curiosity to see how they fared in their first four years in the league sack-wise and noticed something that should be obvious but I'll mention it anyway. Nearly all the big sack master DT's are smaller, quicker guys in the sub 300 pound range. Sapp was listed at 300 even, Pryce/295, Glover/282, Simon/292, Young/291 etc...In this list below, Sam Adams and Richard Seymour are the only two guys over 300 pounds who got at least 20 sacks in their first 4 years in the NFL and their totals equate to roughly one more sack per year than Warren. It could easily be argued that is more than accounted for by the benefit they each received playing on great defenses in New England and Baltimore. Kris Jenkins at 335 might have had 20 sacks had he not missed 11 games but that's uncertain. He also has benefited from playing on a great defense. Here are the first 4 year sack totals on these guys:

Russel Maryland (Dallas/pro bowler '93)- 12 1/2 sacks
Leon Lett (Dallas/2 time pro bowler)- 7 1/2 sacks
Sam Adams (Seattle/3 time pro bowler)- 20 Sacks
La'Roi Glover (Oak/NO-5 time pro bowler) 25 sacks
Kris Jenkins (Carolina/2 time pro bowler)- 15 sacks
Corey Simon (Philly-1 pro bowl) 26 1/2 sacks
Bryant Young (San Fran/4 time pro bowler)- 27 1/2 sacks
Richard Seymour (New England/ 3 time pro bowler)- 21 1/2 sacks
Shaun Rogers (Detroit/ 2004 pro bowl)- 13 1/2 sacks
Casey Hampton (Pittsburgh/2004 pro bowl)- 4 sacks
Trevor Pryce (Denver/4 time pro bowler)- 35 1/2 sacks

The point is this: Warren's stats are roughly equivilent to most other successful big 300 pound plus DT's in the NFL who are asked to play a bigger part in stopping the run than the pass, and superior to some who have been in the pro bowl. For the bigger guys, (Adams, Jenkins, Rogers, Hampton, Seymour), Warren's numbers are in the middle of the pack and all those guys have been to the pro bowl). His numbers are also better than pro bowlers Maryland and Lett two other pro bowl players better at the run than the pass. I'll grant that stats don't tell the whole story. But they do tell a good part of it and in what was clearly a chaotic environment in Cleveland, if anything he seems to have been more consistent than they are admitting. So apart from acting childish or silly at times, hardly unheard of in the NFL, how exactly did this guy fail on the field? Browns fans seem to hate him but I wonder how much of that was out of simple frustration with him not living up to what were probably largely media built expectations in comparing him to Sapp. For a 4th rounder, this does seem like a steal.

Pryce weighed over 300 pounds when playing DT.

I agree that stats all have their parts, but DT wise I dont feeel that they are that significant for DT's.

[baja]

My question is...WHY? How exactly does a 6'4", 330 pound DT not fit in the 3-4 defense? It seems to me he'd be the prototype guy. Now look at this:

This doesn't make a lot of sense. This guy mentions his imaturity but again he refers to Cleveland's system as not suiting him. I fail to see the relevance of their system in the whole thing. They started off in the 4-3 and they were unhappy with his plaly in that system and then they decided to switch, but when you look at the numbers, they were not that bad at all, 113 solo tackles, 37 assists and 16.5 sacks in four seasons for a run stuffing DT is actually fairly good. He got 38 tackles and 4 sacks a year on average. Those are not Warren Sapp numbers (Sapp had 179 tackles and 29.5 sacks in his first 4 years) but comparing other DT's to Sapp might be unfair. For one thing, Sapp had a good supporting cast, something Warren has not had. For another thing, Sapp's numbers represent the elite level for a DT and comparing almost anyone elses sack totals to his, you're bound to come up short. Trevor Pryce beats his numbers but I don't recall if Pryce played all DT in his 1st four years...some of those may have been from the DE spot.

Maybe he is like one of my sons-in-law who is at heart not a bad kid but he is a little slow and has no social skills. When he opens his mouth people either respond with wanting to punch him or puking on his shoes. I mean this kid has a talent for pissing people off, he will have you seething in under 2 minutes flat.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Performance has to be measured, otherwise it amounts to opinion. While imperfect and limited in scope, stats are still a reasonably good way to gage performance. I'll grant that there are defensive positions where some statistics are hidden or less significant. Tackles are less significant for cornerbacks than middle linebackers, interceptions are more significant for a free safety than a great corner who rarely gets thrown at. Sacks are easier for perimeter defensive ends than interior defensive tackles, but you're missing the point. The point is that the Browns claim he had to go for two reasons, immaturity and production. His immaturity doesn't seem to rise to the level of requiring him to leave. He never beat up his wife, smuggled drugs in the trunk of his car, punched out a cop or sexually assaulted anyone. Plenty of NFL players who do those things remain with their teams. So production would seem on the surface to be why they wanted him gone, but he appears to be as productive as most other guys in his weight class playing his position. I'm beginning to think his problems had more to do with individual personalities than his on field performance.

That's my point. He was better than the Browns admit he was.

[footstepsfrom#27]

I mean this kid has a talent for pissing people off, he will have you seething in under 2 minutes flat.
So does Warren Sapp.

[watermock]

What pisses me off is the east coast media seems to think everything is bet on the Browncos, when it's far from the truth. They act like we traded away the entire DL. We didn't trade away anything but lose Raylee Johnson, who is still looking for a job, and Hayward, who was horribly overpaid.

All 4 could bust but if we haven't dumped others for them, it's no loss. Let them rant.

[Pendejo]

What pisses me off is the east coast media seems to think everything is bet on the Browncos, when it's far from the truth. They act like we traded away the entire DL. We didn't trade away anything but lose Raylee Johnson, who is still looking for a job, and Hayward, who was horribly overpaid.

All 4 could bust but if we haven't dumped others for them, it's no loss. Let them rant.

It's a weird concept, but I don't think that Jacksonville overpaid for him...whereas if the Donks would have given him that much scratch they would have been giving him too much. You just have to look at those brutes the Jags have on their interior D line...Reggie is most likely going to have a sack total in the teens. He'll be more effective there than in Denver solely because of the two hosses in the middle.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Rice made Montana look good...Swan made Stallworth look good...Davis made Elway look good...Stauback made Pearson look good...White made Too Tall look good...Aikman made Irvine look good... etc...etc...you can do that all day long. Hayward is more solid than given credit for in here.

[watermock]

So what does the value of the interior line of Jacksonville have to do with Haywards worth other than sympathy sacks?

Next. I gan guarantee Hayward won't have the sack total, despite the line next to him.

[-Slap-]

It's a weird concept, but I don't think that Jacksonville overpaid for him...whereas if the Donks would have given him that much scratch they would have been giving him too much. You just have to look at those brutes the Jags have on their interior D line...Reggie is most likely going to have a sack total in the teens. He'll be more effective there than in Denver solely because of the two hosses in the middle.

It was a great signing for the Jags. Jacksonville had nothing at defensive end and they locked up the best young DE that was on the open market. Heyward will be criticized on this board no matter what he does next year. If his numbers aren't great, he'll be considered a bust, and anything positive he accomplishes will be attributed to Stroud and Henderson.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Right...By this logic Too Tall Jones, Harvey Martin, Dwight White and LC Greenwood all sucked because they had great interior linemen next to them. Anybody leaving Denver will get dissed the next year.

[Cito Pelon]

I believe Woody Paige is still around.

Fortunately, not as much.

[WoodMan]

A couple of things come to my mind, whats left of it anyway. One is that there is a really big maturation process that occurs between the ages of 20 and say 24 or 25. And the second is the effect that playing for a winning program can have on your attitude. I hope that Warren grow up this year and acquire a champions attitude. He will help the Broncos immeasurably if those two things happen.

[Mediator12]

Right...By this logic Too Tall Jones, Harvey Martin, Dwight White and LC Greenwood all sucked because they had great interior linemen next to them. Anybody leaving Denver will get dissed the next year.

Ever been to Canton? Name the number of players there that had combined losing records for their career. The Correlation of being great goes along with playing on Great Teams.

Michael Jordan put up some great numbers in CHI around the same time Dominique Wilkins was as well. Tell me who was the better individual player in those years. Difference there was MJ won Zero titles until Scottie Pippen and role players like Rodman joined those teams.

[ZachKC]

I like that he still has people who know him saying he could be good. That tells something of his character when he has people that are opening rooting for him.
What player does not have people close to him that are not rooting for him. Seriously.

[Atlas]

It was a great signing for the Jags. Jacksonville had nothing at defensive end and they locked up the best young DE that was on the open market. Heyward will be criticized on this board no matter what he does next year. If his numbers aren't great, he'll be considered a bust, and anything positive he accomplishes will be attributed to Stroud and Henderson.

That's true and that's the way it should be. IF HAyward has 16 sacks next year I think we can say Denver made a mistake but if he has 10-15 sacks then I think Denver did fine by not giving him the $10 million. Plus consider the fact that Pryce is now playing Harwards spot so you have consider that an up grade.

[Mediator12]

What player does not have people close to him that are not rooting for him. Seriously.

The Browns. People seem to think that Romeo Crennel will just step in and make a huge difference on that Defense switching to a 3-4. They have no Tedy Bruschi, Mike Vrabel, Willie McGinnest, Richard Seymour, Wilfork, or other First round Talent in the front Seven.

Cleveland may actually be worse than last year as their division is getting better around them.

[-Slap-]

That's true and that's the way it should be. IF HAyward has 16 sacks next year I think we can say Denver made a mistake but if he has 10-15 sacks then I think Denver did fine by not giving him the $10 million. Plus consider the fact that Pryce is now playing Harwards spot so you have consider that an up grade.

I think its going to be a situation that works out for everybody. We needed more help than just what Reggie was going to provide and we're using his money to pay several linemen with NFL experience.

Heyward and Jacksonville is a perfect marriage of team need and a situation where a player should thrive.

Win/win/win/win situation for us, Reggie, the Jags and Brown/Warren/Ekuban/Myers/Engelberger.

[ZachKC]

The Browns. People seem to think that Romeo Crennel will just step in and make a huge difference on that Defense switching to a 3-4. They have no Tedy Bruschi, Mike Vrabel, Willie McGinnest, Richard Seymour, Wilfork, or other First round Talent in the front Seven.

Cleveland may actually be worse than last year as their division is getting better around them.
Again what player does not have people around him that don't want him to suceed. The fact that the Browns are sour on these players after they left their team doesn't do alot to refute what my statement.

[Atlas]

Heyward and Jacksonville is a perfect marriage of team need and a situation where a player should thrive.

.

Their D Line is scarey good.

[Mediator12]

Again what player does not have people around him that don't want him to suceed. The fact that the Browns are sour on these players after they left their team doesn't do alot to refute what my statement.

Not every NFL lockerroom has the touchy feely Vermiel. Situations change Zach. The Davis regime who thought Warren was indispensible, led to the Romeo Clean house brigade.

Not every FO and Coach see eye to eye on the talent level of certain players, hence the desire by most powerful coaches to be coach/GM. Bill Polian, the GM in INDY, fired Jim Mora for not firing his DC because he wanted to change the D scheme to suit his style of players. Hell Greg Robinson was shown the door because Carl Peterson thought the Players were not the Problem!

[fontaine]

Performance has to be measured, otherwise it amounts to opinion. While imperfect and limited in scope, stats are still a reasonably good way to gage performance. I'll grant that there are defensive positions where some statistics are hidden or less significant. Tackles are less significant for cornerbacks than middle linebackers, interceptions are more significant for a free safety than a great corner who rarely gets thrown at. Sacks are easier for perimeter defensive ends than interior defensive tackles, but you're missing the point.


Unbelievable.

I understand this guy is a Bronco now, so it's harder to criticize him but this guy was an inconsistent and lazy underachiever. Gerrard Warren is exactly the kind of player Bronco fans have made fun of and mocked if he was playing in KC (ie Ryan Sims)

Yes stats do tell a story but so does your play on the field. Warren got something like 18 tackles in 13 games last year while a guy like Myers who is maybe only half as talented and a backup got almost TWICE as many tackles as him because he gives great effort every single play. You want to know why Warren was criticized in Cleveland? Watch any Cleveland game from the past couple of years and you'll see a DT that has awesome ability and will make a solid play on one down, and in the next go through the motions and just walk around.

[Ballhawk]

Warren has the talent and ability to play in any scheme. He will flourish if he takes on the attitude of a winner. I truly believe that when you are constantly losing it becomes easy to walk thru the motions. If we as a team play at a high level, Warren will too. I do not see this Kid wanting to be the weakest link. Throw in contract year and he knows that on a top D he will have to make some noice to be noticed. I expect a very solid year from him, and a few monster games.

[DBroncos4life]

Most of you are only looking at the first two years of the Reggie deal. Pretty much all of the bonus comes in those two years making the rest of the contract easy for the team to handle. Same thing with the Berry contract.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Gerrard Warren is exactly the kind of player Bronco fans have made fun of and mocked if he was playing in KC (ie Ryan Sims)...

You want to know why Warren was criticized in Cleveland? Watch any Cleveland game from the past couple of years and you'll see a DT that has awesome ability and will make a solid play on one down, and in the next go through the motions and just walk around.
Odd then that his D-Line coach, who got to see him practice/play his whole time in Cleveland didn't realize that. He must be a complete idiot, staking his own reputation on a guy like that...

If Shanny didn't have Patterson in tow I'd say this is just another example of grabbing some other team's cast-off, but one would suppose the guy who coached the Browncos knows the real truth.

[fontaine]

Odd then that his D-Line coach, who got to see him practice/play his whole time in Cleveland didn't realize that. He must be a complete idiot, staking his own reputation on a guy like that...

If Shanny didn't have Patterson in tow I'd say this is just another example of grabbing some other team's cast-off, but one would suppose the guy who coached the Browncos knows the real truth.

Yeah, that "real" truth really saved him from being let go by Cleveland.

You can see exactly how lazy and unmotivated the Broncos think he is because they pretty much made sure everyone in the NFL knew that Myers was starting ahead of Warren in the recent mini-camps to make sure they didn't just hand him the starting job and send him a message that he would have to work hard every day to start.

[Mediator12]

Yeah, that "real" truth really saved him from being let go by Cleveland.

You can see exactly how lazy and unmotivated the Broncos think he is because they pretty much made sure everyone in the NFL knew that Myers was starting ahead of Warren in the recent mini-camps to make sure they didn't just hand him the starting job and send him a message that he would have to work hard every day to start.

You know I usually agree with you, but Phil Savage and Romeo Crennel cleaned house with players and staff. The Broncos were very close to Hiring Chuck Pagano as their secondary coach from cleveland's staff and were interviewing Patterson as well Before Romeo came on board. They saw the writing on the wall and Denver, specifically Coyer, wanted them on his staff.

As to Warren, he has a lot to prove and is the perfect example of getting a shot to start over in a better setting with less pressure from the media and more expectations from the team. It is his contract year and he will be motivated every way possible from this staff as well. If he does not make it, hasta la manana. No one questions his skills, it was his immaturity and lack of a work ethic. That CAN be changed in the right environment. Here is to Denver being that place :yep:

[fontaine]

You know I usually agree with you, but Phil Savage and Romeo Crennel cleaned house with players and staff. The Broncos were very close to Hiring Chuck Pagano as their secondary coach from cleveland's staff and were interviewing Patterson as well Before Romeo came on board. They saw the writing on the wall and Denver, specifically Coyer, wanted them on his staff.


I simply don't put too much faith in a coach like Patterson who's been bounced from two teams in three years. Maybe he might be exactly what Coyer needs there, but you could easily argue that he's been hired more to be a babysitter for Brown/Ekuban rather than through his own merits. We'll see I guess.

As to Warren, he has a lot to prove and is the perfect example of getting a shot to start over in a better setting with less pressure from the media and more expectations from the team. It is his contract year and he will be motivated every way possible from this staff as well. If he does not make it, hasta la manana. No one questions his skills, it was his immaturity and lack of a work ethic. That CAN be changed in the right environment. Here is to Denver being that place :yep:

I agree, he will benefit from playing in a more professional environment and it was his lack of a true work ethic that held him back before. I'm not saying that he can't change but it's a very tough thing to do. The plus side is that we don't need him to be a stud, just being a good player will be an upgrade. This is why I'm hoping that we don't get rid of Fatafehi just because Warren's on board. Fatafehi gives solid effort and plays his gap role well and you need that insurance when you have a Warren type player on the roster.

[Mediator12]

Patterson was ejected for two coaching regime changes! That is the life of an assistant coach in the NFL. New coaches bring in new staff. Parcells and Crennel both brought big time philosophy changes to their defenses and cleaned house.

[fontaine]

Patterson was ejected for two coaching regime changes! That is the life of an assistant coach in the NFL. New coaches bring in new staff. Parcells and Crennel both brought big time philosophy changes to their defenses and cleaned house.

Maybe. I agree that those coaches had a philosphy change and wanted to clean house, especially Crennell, but in this league you find ways to hang onto great position coaches.

I'm not saying Patterson sucks, I'm just saying that I don't trust him yet and he'll have to show me something.

What's particularily interesting to me is how Crennel wants to run a 3-4 system in Cleveland and, hence you say there was a philosphy change and Patterson was out. So why did the Broncos bring in Patterson back then when they did have some plans on running some 3-4 defense?

[Mediator12]

Maybe. I agree that those coaches had a philosphy change and wanted to clean house, especially Crennell, but in this league you find ways to hang onto great position coaches.

I'm not saying Patterson sucks, I'm just saying that I don't trust him yet and he'll have to show me something.

What's particularily interesting to me is how Crennel wants to run a 3-4 system in Cleveland and, hence you say there was a philosphy change and Patterson was out. So why did the Broncos bring in Patterson back then when they did have some plans on running some 3-4 defense?

Look at Larry Coyer's response top the 3-4 Smokescreen from a few days ago: "We looked at it, but we are not going to use it that much this year except on passing downs with medium distance." The 3-4 was a ruse by Sundquist that Coyer NEVER took seriously as a philosophy switch. Hey, it got us some cheap 4-3 Players from CLE!

[fontaine]

Look at Larry Coyer's response top the 3-4 Smokescreen from a few days ago: "We looked at it, but we are not going to use it that much this year except on passing downs with medium distance." The 3-4 was a ruse by Sundquist that Coyer NEVER took seriously as a philosophy switch. Hey, it got us some cheap 4-3 Players from CLE!

Ah come'on man! What do you expect him to say?

They brought on board the cheapest DL players available with potential and they are 4-3 players. Ofcourse he's not going to look like a stooge and start saying anything to the contrary, no less on the team's website.